The threat to free speech on the internet continues... the FCC & Net Neutrality...

[KB9YCO]

Oh boy, it's heating up. Is the solution to internet traffic flow issues the allowing of companies to decide which traffic they deem relevant and/or important as opposed to treating all internet traffic the same? This is going to be a big issue and everyone that values their internet usage and freedom of access to information had better be paying attention!

A divided Federal Communications Commission on Thursday grappled further with the thorny issue of how to relieve increasing online congestion, disagreeing sharply over whether government regulations are needed.

The five-member commission met at Stanford University during a seven-hour meeting delving into "Net neutrality," the principle that all Internet traffic be treated equal.

It was the second such hearing the FCC has held this year, its interest on the subject piqued by formal complaints that Comcast Corp. is blocking certain of its customers who upload videos, music and other large data files from using its network during peak traffic times.

"We are facing these problems because of a failure of FCC policy," Stanford University law professor Lawrence Lessig told the commission. "The FCC failed to make it clear to the network owners that if they are building the Internet they need to build it neutrally."

FCC commissioners Michael Copps and Jonathan Adelstein called for the agency to strengthen its power to prevent Comcast and its competitors from unfairly discriminating against some customers. But two others, Deborah Tate and Robert McDowell, warned against burdening the industry with additional, costly regulations.

FCC Chairman Kevin Martin argued that the FCC's current Internet policy is sufficient but said the FCC's policy needs to be enforced... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080418/ap_on_hi_te/internet_regulation&printer=1;_ylt=AtqG5XQ2sBfCgSWtAnPpPJtk24cA)

[n2ize]

All traffic should be handled equally over the Internet. If a provider is going to do otherwise then they should be required to inform their customers as to precisely which traffic will be given priority and which will not. In addition they should offer their subscribers a significantly reduced rate for providing crippled internet service.

It's a shame that the USA, numero 1, yet we have worst service and worst network coverage than many foreign countries.

[K3UD]

All traffic should be handled equally over the Internet. If a provider is going to do otherwise then they should be required to inform their customers as to precisely which traffic will be given priority and which will not. In addition they should offer their subscribers a significantly reduced rate for providing crippled internet service.

It's a shame that the USA, numero 1, yet we have worst service and worst network coverage than many foreign countries.


Was Comcast the only provider that was doing this?

73
George
K3UD

[KB9YCO]

Was Comcast the only provider that was doing this?

73
George
K3UD

No, actually from what I've read and heard it's been quite a number of companies including the biggest like AT&T, Verizon, Comcast and Time Warner. I don't know if they all went quite as far as Comcast's actual blocking of certain sites, but many of them seem to be all for it. I think that the FCC may be leading in the correct direction with this issue, at least most of them anyway, and trying to keep the internet neutral. We'll see. While I'm sure there are others here is a good link on this issue:

Save The Internet . com - Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.savetheinternet.com/=faq)

FCC public hearing on the future of the internet (http://www.savetheinternet.com/=stanford)

[NC5P]

In another thread last week I reported that Time Warner actually censors sites that upset their franchise lords. It seems a lot of web sites that host unpopular political material have moved off shore to circumvent US court orders. Bad Cop News and Wikileaks are two that come to mind. Thus the new tactic is to block them at the subscriber end. I suspect when AT&T gets their new switches online the US Customs (ICE or whatever they are now called) will be able to filter out such material crossing the border.

[AE6IP]

there are two different issues here. Net neutrality is about treating indvidual packets at gateways and such. When you talk about blocking all traffic from an IP or range of IP addresses, you're talking about censorship. They're not the same issue.

[N4VGB]

All traffic should be handled equally over the Internet. If a provider is going to do otherwise then they should be required to inform their customers as to precisely which traffic will be given priority and which will not. In addition they should offer their subscribers a significantly reduced rate for providing crippled internet service.

It's a shame that the USA, numero 1, yet we have worst service and worst network coverage than many foreign countries.

Those who pay the least, get the least service, this is a capitalist nation. The entities that enjoy the highest priority, do so for very good reason. This internet thing was started for Gov. and research reasons, it was never intended for John Q. Public.

[AE6IP]

Those who pay the least, get the least service, this is a capitalist nation. The entities that enjoy the highest priority, do so for very good reason. This internet thing was started for Gov. and research reasons, it was never intended for John Q. Public.

First, the internet has been intended for John Q. Public since 1989, which is when we made the mistake of letting y'all on to it. It's been a 'public' internet for nearly 20 years.

Second, net neutrality isn't about people getting more service than they pay for.

The economics of service are covered by bandwidth limits. If I want more bytes per second, than I pay for more bytes per second. Net Neutrality is about transport operators not charging me differently for bytes from different sources.

[n2ize]

In another thread last week I reported that Time Warner actually censors sites that upset their franchise lords. It seems a lot of web sites that host unpopular political material have moved off shore to circumvent US court orders. Bad Cop News and Wikileaks are two that come to mind. Thus the new tactic is to block them at the subscriber end. I suspect when AT&T gets their new switches online the US Customs (ICE or whatever they are now called) will be able to filter out such material crossing the border.

And what will it accomplish ? More censorship. So, like people do in China, we too will have to find ways to circumvent the censors. Censorship doesn;t stop anything. It just forces honest people to learn to sneak around things and become sneaky.

Ah well, I'm outta here. I guess VGB will be filling in the all night QRZ slot.

[KV1M]

Those who pay the least, get the least service, this is a capitalist nation. The entities that enjoy the highest priority, do so for very good reason. This internet thing was started for Gov. and research reasons, it was never intended for John Q. Public.

You don't know what you are talking about.
It is the end user, the consumer who pays most per megabyte of access.
So perhaps in that light it is the home user who should have priority on the network and everyone else (like financial institutions and government) should just be grateful they have access.

But that is moot anyway since it is not even the issue.
Your understanding of the subject is obviously limited, you should do some research before advertising any more of that ignorance.

[N4VGB]

But that is moot anyway since it is not even the issue.
Your understanding of the subject is obviously limited, you should do some research before advertising any more of that ignorance.


Indeed!? Having worked in the telecom industry for 33 years and knowing full well of the existence of the internet before it was even available to the public and having been involved in the implementation of the modern internet, I can see how I'm ignorant of any facts involved!? :D

[KV1M]

Indeed!? Having worked in the telecom industry for 33 years and knowing full well of the existence of the internet before it was even available to the public and having been involved in the implementation of the modern internet, I can see how I'm ignorant of any facts involved!? :D

Your past job has no bearing on the realities of today. If you had any recent experience in this area I might not be slamming you for your willingness to display your ignorance.
On the other hand I DO work in industries where I am responsible for the provisioning and maintenance of internet connectivity, remember?
Right now, this very minute. For multinational financial firms. Big pipes. Big like you've never seen.
And I have done so for the last 15 years.

You don't know what you are talking about.

[n2ize]

Indeed!? Having worked in the telecom industry for 33 years and knowing full well of the existence of the internet before it was even available to the public and having been involved in the implementation of the modern internet, I can see how I'm ignorant of any facts involved!? :D

I have a friend who worked in the telecom industry for 40 years. He knew nothing about the workings of the "Internet"

I knew full well of the existance of the "internet" as an undergraduate student, before it was common to the public.

I too have been involved in the implementation of the modern internet. So have millions of people.

You seem ignorant of the "facts" because you made some obvious statements that others corrected. You would be better served to prove them wrong and yourself correct.

[N4VGB]

Your past job has no bearing on the realities of today.
I DO work in industries where I am responsible for the provisioning and maintenance of internet connectivity, remember?
Right now, this very minute.
And I have done so for the last 15 years.

You don't know what you are talking about.

And without those who furnish you a global network, you could connect your LAN to what? The first floor to the tenth floor! Quite the accomplishment indeed! :D

I also enjoyed the installation, provisioning and maintenance of a LAN in the six story building where I was last located. It was a sideline to my main function, providing you a network to connect to the internet. :p

[KV1M]

And without those who furnish you a global network, you could connect your LAN to what? The first floor to the tenth floor! Quite the accomplishment indeed! :D

I also enjoyed the installation, provisioning and maintenance of a LAN in the six story building where I was last located. It was a sideline to my main function, providing you a network to connect to the internet. :p

LAN administration a minor subset of what I do.
And it has no bearing on the fact that I currently provision internet WAN connectivity to corporations as a part of my everyday job function.

What you did or did not do for LAN's is irrelevant as LAN connectivity is NOT part of this discussion.

You provided me with nothing. The current network is nothing like what you may or may not have worked on prior to your retirement. You still don't know what you are talking about in this debate.

[n2ize]

And without those who furnish you a global network, you could connect your LAN to what? The first floor to the tenth floor! Quite the accomplishment indeed! :D

I also enjoyed the installation, provisioning and maintenance of a LAN in the six story building where I was last located. It was a sideline to my main function, providing you a network to connect to the internet. :p

Right. So when a tree fell across a telephone (networking) wire and you fixed it. Thats commendable. When a piece of networking gear failed you repaired or replaced it. Fine, That's important.

You're still wrong with regards to your conceptualization of connectivity costs and network neutrality.

[N4VGB]

LAN administration a minor subset of what I do.
And it has no bearing on the fact that I currently provision internet WAN connectivity to corporations as a part of my everyday job function.

What you did or did not do for LAN's is irrelevant as LAN connectivity is NOT part of this discussion.

You provided me with nothing. The current network is nothing like what you may or may not have worked on prior to your retirement. You still don't know what you are talking about in this debate.

Yes indeed, I recall implementing the open network architecture that allows customers to access and configure those WAN ports, glad you're enjoying using the access that I provided to you, we also made quite sure that you could access nothing more.

Anyone believing that forums such as this and personal email should enjoy equal status in the internet hierarchy to critical data is an utter buffoon and I assure you that your employer would not agree with that view.

Having never suffered any blocking of access to any website or info by my ISP, other than those required by federal & state law, I have no opinion on that matter.

[AE6IP]

Indeed!? Having worked in the telecom industry for 33 years and knowing full well of the existence of the internet before it was even available to the public and having been involved in the implementation of the modern internet, I can see how I'm ignorant of any facts involved!? :D

That description could cover a telco lineman who read an article in '89 in Popular Science.

This is why discussion of technical topics should be limited to the actual discussion, and not about credentials. After all, even Einstein made mistakes in general relativity.

For your amusement: 33 years ago was, of course, 1975. At that time, commercial internets had been available "to the (paying) public" for seven years -- and I was making money in Montana, selling software consulting services to mining companies all over the world, using one.

Alas, I didn't start developing bits of "the" Internet until '83, so I can only claim a mere quarter century of 'having been involved'. :D

[N4VGB]

Right. So when a tree fell across a telephone (networking) wire and you fixed it.


That was where I started, entry level positions were limited in the days when I started. Later installing, provisioning and maintaining the digital equipment that provides you with your internet connectivity. The real internet in the early days was an assortment of hard digital lines patched together and accessible only to those in possession of a leased digital line, it existed many years before any public access was granted. I recall vividly the only access available to John Q. Public when it first began via those damnable dialup modems. Start the download of a large document of any type, go have lunch, it might be finished by the time you returned.

[AE6IP]

That was where I started, entry level positions were limited in the days when I started. Later installing, provisioning and maintaining the digital equipment that provides you with your internet connectivity.

Not exactly a job that leads to a deep understanding of the net. You're describing what most network engineers might call a 'wire monkey', these days.

The real internet in the early days was an assortment of hard digital lines patched together and accessible only to those in possession of a leased digital line,

Actually, much of it went over the switched network and wasn't any more "patched together" than the commercial networks built for corporations by companies like BBN.

I recall vividly the only access available to John Q. Public when it first began via those damnable dialup modems.

You recall incorrect. The only access affordable to John Q. Public was dialup over POTS usually via an ISP's terminal concentrator. Access via leased line was available the instant we let John Q Public (technically "commercial traffic") onto the net.

But you're drifting farther and farther from the topic.

[KV1M]

But you're drifting farther and farther from the topic.

And displaying less acumen every second.

[N4VGB]

Not exactly a job that leads to a deep understanding of the net. You're describing what most network engineers might call a 'wire monkey', these days.



Actually, much of it went over the switched network and wasn't any more "patched together" than the commercial networks built for corporations by companies like BBN.



You recall incorrect. The only access affordable to John Q. Public was dialup over POTS usually via an ISP's terminal concentrator. Access via leased line was available the instant we let John Q Public (technically "commercial traffic") onto the net.

But you're drifting farther and farther from the topic.

"Wire monkey" refers to the title of frameman, whose function is the running of jumpers all day. I've never done that, it's a very boring job. I did place a lot of shielded T1 jumpers and patch cords, T3 coax patch cords and fiber patches also.

The PSTN wasn't even involved in the first generation of the internet. It was a closed network and completely unavailable to the public, the telcos only provided the "lines" needed and did no switching at all. At this point in time it was referred to as the LAN, WAN, GAN network. Later services for low speed digital connections were mostly provided via "business networks", ISDN, etc. Few individuals were interested in the expense of these services, although we did have a sudden influx of ISDN users locally, being the cheapest provider of that service in the nation. DSL and CATV broadband killed those markets quickly.

At the time the first John Q. Public internet users were allowed online to the internet it was indeed only via "dialup" and "dialup" was always via the PSTN. I can't imagine what part of my original statement that you refer to as "recall incorrect"? The PSTN never carried the "backbone" traffic of the internet, even in the earliest days of slow POTS "dialup", it was only the "front end" access point.

[N4VGB]

And displaying less acumen every second.

Indeed. I would suppose that since your servers are commercially powered that you're also expert an expert AC transmission engineer? Since I presume you can flush a toilet, then you're obviously ready to assume management of the local water treatment and distribution system also? Surely you view CATV or satellite TV and are ready to oversee the next satellite launch? Amaze me with your latest processor design before I waste my dollars on the latest quad core piece please?

I can't imagine why you left the U.S., since the presidency of any sizable telco pays much more than an IT career offers? :p:p:p

[KV1M]

Indeed. I would suppose that since your servers are commercially powered that you're also expert an expert AC transmission engineer? Since I presume you can flush a toilet, then you're obviously ready to assume management of the local water treatment and distribution system also? Surely you view CATV or satellite TV and are ready to oversee the next satellite launch? Amaze me with your latest processor design before I waste my dollars on the latest quad core piece please?

I can't imagine why you left the U.S., since the presidency of any sizable telco pays much more than an IT career offers? :p:p:p


Ahh, and the ad hominem is pulled out.

You display even more ignorance on the subject.
I am and have been an internet engineer and Unix admin for 15 years now.
I know more about the current system than a wire monkey like you ever did.

The topic by the way is that the consumer pays more per megabyte than the big corporate users and are being left out of the loop and will be given slower speeds just because they can't cough up more dough.

And my post was pointing out that you oh so obviously know nothing about this yet have the temerity to comment on it like you do.

No matter though, when your access slows down in a year or 2 because you are one of the little guys mine will be reaching ever higher speeds.

[N4VGB]

You display even more ignorance on the subject.
I am and have been an internet engineer

The topic by the way is that the consumer pays more per megabyte than the big corporate users

And my post was pointing out that you oh so obviously know nothing about this yet have the temerity to comment on it like you do.

No matter though, when your access slows down in a year or 2 because you are one of the little guys mine will be reaching ever higher speeds.

"Internet engineers" hold EE degrees and work for corporations like Cisco Systems, one of the telcos, equipment manufacturers, etc. IT & UNIX admin is a very good position in the correct company but doesn't elevate one to "master of global telecommunications" as you seem to believe.

I am completely satisfied with the speed & price offered by my DSL and broadband CATV connections here at home. If I wanted more then I would be paying much more, it is an option available to all.

My access speeds on both connections have increased and the price remained the same on both, I can't imagine needing more than the 6 meg speed provided on each one? But then I've never been big on watching the multitude of porn videos available, I imagine they do play better at higher speeds? :D:p:eek:

All my connections are done under business names, mine won't slow down.

[n2ize]

That was where I started, entry level positions were limited in the days when I started. Later installing, provisioning and maintaining the digital equipment that provides you with your internet connectivity. The real internet in the early days was an assortment of hard digital lines patched together and accessible only to those in possession of a leased digital line, it existed many years before any public access was granted.


Yes, I understood this back when I was in school. The early days of what we know call the Internet are well documented. Even in those days there was much talk about the possibilities about extending the infrastructure into an all purpose world wide network. In later years I worked on some of the more advanced mathematical aspects of networking which directly contributed to the design and efficiency of networking protocols which were likely incorporated into some of the equipment you installed. In whatever way and at many different levels we all did our part in building what is today taken for granted and used daily by persons worldwide with little concern on the part of most users for what lies under the hood and what makes it all work.


I recall vividly the only access available to John Q. Public when it first began via those damnable dialup modems. Start the download of a large document of any type, go have lunch, it might be finished by the time you returned.

I recally it just as vividly. I remember dialing into bulletin boards. I remember the accoustically coupled modems that linked the teleprinter computer terminals in my HIGH SCHOOL with the main frame computer on which we used on a timesharing basis. I remember the slow rates of data transfer, and I remember doing entire FORTRAN programs on punched cards, I remember my fitst Texas Instruments SR-50 calculator, I remember using a slide rule in school, etc.

None of this is relevant to the topic of maintaining Network neutrality... which means maintaining an open and fair level playing field with regards to data transfer over the internet.

When my VOIP service suddenly stops working properly because the provider decides to give my packets a lower priority over their own VOIP packets and then I am told that I must pay more for it to work as well as it already works then that is a PROBLEM.

When my business website is bogged down and slow and I loose sales because the packets are given a lower priority and I must pay more to get the same service that I already get then that is a problem.

When I am told that the protocols I use are to be given a lower priority over some proprietary protocols that the provider has a vested interest in and to get them to work properly again Imust shell out more...more...more... then that is a PROBLEM.

We already pay good money for broadband service. We expect the performance to remain good or even get better over time. Not to be deliberately crippled because someproviders want to make more money. The Internet works and has been a success because it has been a relatively level playing field for all. People don't want the Internet to be turned into just another broadcast media format where only the big moguls can afford to play ball and the rest of us have to sit on the sidelines and take what they dish out. The Internet in it's present form has enabled so many people to communicate in so many wonderful ways. Students or laymen can get access to fascinating, in-depth information that once required hard to get access to university libraries. Beginners, hobbyists, independent researchers, etc. can correspond with leading professionals thoruhg which they can share, query, and obtain information that was once almost impossible to access. The internet has probably become one of the greatest technological informational advances in world history. The possibilities are endless and only limited by our imaginations. It has worked so well simply because it has been a relatively uncensored and level playing field. Why do we want to suddenly start limiting it by taking that level playing field away and replacing it with a gated and sealed playing field determined by a select few sitting in high places ?

[KV1M]

The position of Internet Engineer is not degreed, yet more noise from the peanut gallery.
I don't claim mastership, I claim direct knowledge which I do have. A daily exercised direct knowledge.

And your synopsis of your home speeds show a fundamental lack of understanding of the subject being discussed.
But I'd expect nothing more from you in any case.

Entertainment being your primary goal and all.

BTW - It has nothing to do with business versus home connections. Such willful ignorance is astounding to witness.

[n2ize]

"Internet engineers" hold EE degrees and work for corporations like Cisco Systems, one of the telcos, equipment manufacturers, etc. IT & UNIX admin is a very good position in the correct company but doesn't elevate one to "master of global telecommunications" as you seem to believe.

Nobody here said it did. What was said is that certain people get involved with various jobs and in the process gain responsibilities in a wide range of areas from technical to business.


I am completely satisfied with the speed & price offered by my DSL and broadband CATV connections here at home. If I wanted more then I would be paying much more, it is an option available to all.

You still don't get it. That is not what the issue of network neutrality is all about. It has nothing to do with how much bandwidth you buy.


My access speeds on both connections have increased and the price remained the same on both, I can't imagine needing more than the 6 meg speed provided on each one? But then I've never been big on watching the multitude of porn videos available, I imagine they do play better at higher speeds? :D:p:eek:


There are alot of other uses for high bandwidth needs besides watching pornography. There are many TV shows, movies, etc. available over the web that are non-porn. There is a wide range of uses


All my connections are done under business names, mine won't slow down.

Don't be so sure. Again, the issue of neutrality is not what you think it is. A 20 Mb connection will still remain a 20 Mb connection. However, certain packets will be given priority over others determined completely by the providers. Unless you pay more you may find that your packets won't reach me nearly as fast as your competitors packets. Or, they may not reach me as fast unless I happen to shop at 3:00am.

[AE6IP]

"Wire monkey" refers to the title of frameman, whose function is the running of jumpers all day. I've never done that, it's a very boring job. I did place a lot of shielded T1 jumpers and patch cords, T3 coax patch cords and fiber patches also.

IOWs you were a wire monkey.

The PSTN wasn't even involved in the first generation of the internet.

And yet I had a TAC.

It was a closed network and completely unavailable to the public, the telcos only provided the "lines" needed and did no switching at all.

You're quibbling over a technicality. The "lines", especially during the period when the net consisted mostly of east and west coast sites with nothing in the middle were physically part of the switched network, but were used in dedicated mode, which is all I meant to say. Ma Bell did not run pairs just for us. She simply set up dedicated circuits through the switches. The first famous melt down of the internet was, in fact, due to a (IIIRC, level 5) switch going down in Kansas.

At this point in time it was referred to as the LAN, WAN, GAN network.

Nope. LAN didn't become a commonly used term until the mid '80s.

At the time the first John Q. Public internet users were allowed online to the internet it was indeed only via "dialup" and "dialup" was always via the PSTN.

Nope. As I've already said, John Q Public could lease lines if he wanted to. Some of the first "ISP"s were run by friends of mine who ran terminal concentrators into leased lines in their own homes.

But you're just drifting farther and farther from the original topic.

[AE6IP]

"Internet engineers" hold EE degrees and work for corporations like Cisco Systems, one of the telcos, equipment manufacturers, etc. IT & UNIX admin is a very good position in the correct company but doesn't elevate one to "master of global telecommunications" as you seem to believe.

The more common term is "network engineer", and it's rare that one holds a EE degree. They work both for the providers and for the larger consumers. Any company that has more than T1 access is likely to have a network engineer on staff.

I am completely satisfied with the speed & price offered by my DSL and broadband CATV connections here at home. If I wanted more then I would be paying much more, it is an option available to all.

Lucky you. I don't currently have access to serious broadband, and AT&T is charging me twice what the market should bear for crappy ASDL.

My access speeds on both connections have increased and the price remained the same on both, I can't imagine needing more than the 6 meg speed provided on each one? But then I've never been big on watching the multitude of porn videos available, I imagine they do play better at higher speeds?

On busy days at work my peak demand is around 100 m/s, as I move large binaries of operating systems I'm developing around. It'd be more, but the internal infrastructure isn't gig-e yet. Working at home would justify the same sort of speeds. My European colleagues, who once complained about truly outrageous network pricing, pay roughly half what I do for similar performance.

All my connections are done under business names, mine won't slow down.

If you're using a cable modem, it doesn't matter whether you're using a "business name". What matters is how many other users are trying to use the same loop.

[N4VGB]

So I take it that you guys are just now becoming aware of the hierarchy of the modern day internet? And you're mad because the ISPs retain control of the use of the internet?

Then start your own ISP! Then you'll learn the hard way that you're not allowed to throw open the gates to all uses. Regulations vary from state to state. Internet gambling is illegal in TN, in TN the ports normally associated with "gaming" are automatically blocked, the same ports used by Echolink, I can & did open those ports and use them because it's not for "gaming" purposes. Those who cannot provide a viable reason for use of those ports are not allowed to open them. It's not my ISP, it's the state law.

VOIP, why? Cheap flat rate long distance is now available to most and is real time based instead of packet based. No VOIP that I've ever tried is nearly as good as a dedicated digital voice time slot.

It all really boils down to "we want to be treated like the big boys but we don't want to pay like the big boys". Sorry, it's capitalism. When I'm using my email to negotiate a contract price with a vendor in a foreign land, I really don't believe your personal email to your girlfriend deserves the same packet priority status as mine.

The internet network is not a stagnant and cost free entity. It constantly needs expansion, upgrading and maintenance. Those who pay the most should receive the highest packet priority status. On a cost to performance ratio, Americans are receiving a very good deal in most areas.

[N4VGB]

The more common term is "network engineer", and it's rare that one holds a EE degree.

If you're using a cable modem, it doesn't matter whether you're using a "business name". What matters is how many other users are trying to use the same loop.


It is technically illegal in the U.S. to refer to yourself as an engineer and not hold some degree in engineering. Don't blame me, it was the various societies of the degreed engineers that filed the actions resulting in this. My former company had to retitle several departments because of this action.

Node congestion and the associated slow down in speed only indicates that the particular node in question hasn't been provided with enough "backbone" to handle the peak traffic. The same situation exists with DSL service if the DSLAM is likewise short of "backbone". "Backbone" bandwidth is provided via traffic studies, it makes no sense and is economically unfeasible to provide full "backbone" bandwidth to a cable node or DSLAM that shows an average of 20% occupancy and a peak of 60%, the extra bandwidth would never be used!? Some of these hit traffic peaks in short intervals that slow them down but not often enough to justify the expense of upgrading them.

[AE6IP]

So I take it that you guys are just now becoming aware of the hierarchy of the modern day internet? And you're mad because the ISPs retain control of the use of the internet?

It would be hard to be mad about something that's not true.

Then start your own ISP! Then you'll learn the hard way that you're not allowed to throw open the gates to all uses.

You're drifting even farther from the point. Net neutrality is about how legitimate traffic is treated, not about what's legitimate or not.

in TN the ports normally associated with "gaming" are automatically blocked,

all of the gaming sites use HTTP and HTTPS. I doubt very much that TN blocks those ports.

the same ports used by Echolink, I can & did open those ports and use them because it's not for "gaming" purposes. Those who cannot provide a viable reason for use of those ports are not allowed to open them. It's not my ISP, it's the state law.

Please to cite this state law.

VOIP, why? Cheap flat rate long distance is now available to most and is real time based instead of packet based. No VOIP that I've ever tried is nearly as good as a dedicated digital voice time slot.

You may want to reread that paragraph and restate it so you're not contradicting yourself.

It all really boils down to "we want to be treated like the big boys but we don't want to pay like the big boys". Sorry, it's capitalism. When I'm using my email to negotiate a contract price with a vendor in a foreign land, I really don't believe your personal email to your girlfriend deserves the same packet priority status as mine.

It's not about what you believe. It's also not about different tiering for the same type of packet. You really should go read up on net neutrality, because you are talking like someone who has no idea what it is about.

The internet network is not a stagnant and cost free entity. It constantly needs expansion, upgrading and maintenance.

Net Neutrality's not about that either.

Those who pay the most should receive the highest packet priority status.

Would you care to translate that sentence into something with meaning? "Highest packet priority status" is a meaningless phrase in this context.

On a cost to performance ratio, Americans are receiving a very good deal in most areas.

Nope. Americans pay far more for the same service than either the Japanese, who have it the best, or people in EU member states.

[n2ize]

So I take it that you guys are just now becoming aware of the hierarchy of the modern day internet? And you're mad because the ISPs retain control of the use of the internet?

Clearly you still fail to grasp the idea of network neutrality. Or you are deliberately avoiding it to maintain a controversial stances as you so often do.

AE6IP stated above what I had origionally stated here so why repeat it twice..

[KV1M]

It is technically illegal in the U.S. to refer to yourself as an engineer and not hold some degree in engineering. Don't blame me, it was the various societies of the degreed engineers that filed the actions resulting in this. My former company had to retitle several departments because of this action.


Again with the meaningless noise.

You are wrong again skippy, as usual.
Network and systems engineers are job titles and are exempt from that kind of stuff. Go look it up, I already did a very long time ago when I was given those titles.

Again you are showing your minimalist knowledge of the subject at hand by completely missing the target of the discussion on not just one but both serial posts. Not only that but you get key technical points wrong and quote laws that don't exist.

You are talking to one of the big boys Jethro, you just aren't savvy enough to understand that.

ISP? Already been there and done that. 12 years ago.

You'd be better off sticking with the fluff opinion pieces and leaving the technical discussions alone, you're just not up to the minimum level required to not sound like a clueless moron on these kinds of posts.

[N4VGB]

Again with the meaningless noise.

You are wrong again skippy, as usual.
Network and systems engineers are job titles and are exempt from that kind of stuff. Go look it up, I already did a very long time ago when I was given those titles.

Again you are showing your minimalist knowledge of the subject at hand by completely missing the target of the discussion on not just one but both serial posts.

You are taling to one of the big boys Jethro, you just aren't savvy enough to understand that.

ISP? Already been there and done that. 12 years ago.

I just can't help but love ya guy! One of the most pompous asses that I've ever come across!:D

Give that man his bowler hat and cane! He's earned it royally!:p

[N4VGB]

Clearly you still fail to grasp the idea of network neutrality. Or you are deliberately avoiding it to maintain a controversial stances as you so often do.

AE6IP stated above what I had origionally stated here so why repeat it twice..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_neutrality

Get back to me? One of us has the wrong vision of what the phrase means?

[KV1M]

I just can't help but love ya guy! One of the most pompous asses that I've ever come across!:D

Give that man his bowler hat and cane! He's earned it royally!:p

And yet I still know more about this (and apparently everything else as well) than you do.

Your wrong more than your right Jethro, just like your NeoConartist heros.

[N4VGB]

Net neutrality is about how legitimate traffic is treated, not about what's legitimate or not.

Nope. Americans pay far more for the same service than either the Japanese, who have it the best, or people in EU member states.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_neutrality , read first and then we'll be on the same page perhaps.

I don't give a rat's ass about the internet as implemented in foreign countries. Join KV1M and you'll be a happy camper. :p:p:p

[n2ize]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_neutrality , read first and then we'll be on the same page perhaps.

I don't give a rat's ass about the internet as implemented in foreign countries. Join KV1M and you'll be a happy camper. :p:p:p

Right, and the Wikipedia article implies precisely what AE6IP said. It'snot about purchasing bandwidth, it's not about opening or closing ports. It's about assuring non-discriminatory practices with regards to the transmission of legal packets across a network.

[n2ize]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_neutrality , read first and then we'll be on the same page perhaps.

I don't give a rat's ass about the internet as implemented in foreign countries. Join KV1M and you'll be a happy camper. :p:p:p

No, but you did say what a good deal we get in America and he pointed out that you can get as good or a better deal elsewhere.

I like the way you throw up your hands and suddenly start saying you could care less after you've feverishlydebated an issue and have been proven wrong.

[N4VGB]

No, but you did say what a good deal we get in America and he pointed out that you can get as good or a better deal elsewhere.

I like the way you throw up your hands and suddenly start saying you could care less after you've feverishlydebated an issue and have been proven wrong.

I said I didn't care about the internet architecture overseas, why should I, I'm here not there? If your demonstrated logic is indicative of your teaching ability, you should be terminated tomorrow. :p

[n2ize]

I said I didn't care about the internet architecture overseas, why should I, I'm here not there? If your demonstrated logic is indicative of your teaching ability, you should be terminated tomorrow. :p

Because you said

On a cost to performance ratio, Americans are receiving a very good deal in most areas.

And in response to such a statement it is perfectly logical to point out that in other parts of the world people get better connectivity, faster speeds, in and often for the same or less than we pay here. You chose to throw up your hands and say "I don't care" as I have seen you do when you don't have much left to say. No logic, just an observation.

In any event I don't want to waste any more of your time with this. Obviously you are a busy man and you have lots and lots of posts to respond to over the next 24 hours. So I'll let you get down to it.

[N4VGB]

Because you said

On a cost to performance ratio, Americans are receiving a very good deal in most areas.

And in response to such a statement it is perfectly logical to point out that in other parts of the world people get better connectivity, faster speeds, in and often for the same or less than we pay here. You chose to throw up your hands and say "I don't care" as I have seen you do when you don't have much left to say. No logic, just an observation.

In any event I don't want to waste any more of your time with this. Obviously you are a busy man and you have lots and lots of posts to respond to over the next 24 hours. So I'll let you get down to it.

I like both apples & oranges, they are both fruits but otherwise not comparable. No imposition on my time at all, I must take frequent breaks from my labors, breathing difficulties and the pollen count is quite high now, exacerbating the basic problem.

[AE6IP]

It is technically illegal in the U.S. to refer to yourself as an engineer and not hold some degree in engineering.

No it is not. There are certain fields in which you can't call yourself an engineer unless you have a license to practice in those fields. None of them are related to network engineering.

[AE6IP]

Node congestion and the associated slow down in speed only indicates that the particular node in question hasn't been provided with enough "backbone" to handle the peak traffic.

That's only true in point-to-point. Cable is multidrop.

Node slow down on a multidrop is a consequence of the bandwidth consumption of all of the nodes on the loop.

[AE6IP]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_neutrality

Get back to me? One of us has the wrong vision of what the phrase means?

That would be you, as the definitions section of that article makes amply clear.

[AE6IP]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_neutrality , read first and then we'll be on the same page perhaps.

You would have to understand the definitions, in order to be on the same page, and everything you've written about capitalism and the net indicates that you don't.

I don't give a rat's ass about the internet as implemented in foreign countries.

And, once again, it's not about what you care about, it's about how the net is operated. US Businesses care about the internet as implemented in foreign countries because they get half or more of their business by dealing with consumers in those countries.

[n0ov]

Interesting topic Brett

Not only does this have Freedom of Speech ramifications, but what is stopping the providers from limiting what sites you can visit to do e-commerce, or say restrict your ability to use VOIP software like Vonage or EchoLink. Depending how this goes ISP's could be the monopolies (or oligopolies) of the future

[N4VGB]

And, once again, it's not about what you care about, it's about how the net is operated. US Businesses care about the internet as implemented in foreign countries because they get half or more of their business by dealing with consumers in those countries.


What can I say!? I do business overseas, I've had no problem at all either in the selling of my finished products or the acquisition of raw materials from abroad. None of my business friends have reported any problems in doing business abroad over the internet.

Congestion problems are between the network provider and their customers, not a political issue at all. I get good service at what I consider a reasonable price from Comcast and AT&T, I've got nothing to gripe about but just like all, I'd accept a lower price with no complaints.

The local censorship post that started this thread is a local matter, none in this forum will be influential in settling that case.

[AE6IP]

What can I say!? I do business overseas, I've had no problem at all either in the selling of my finished products or the acquisition of raw materials from abroad. None of my business friends have reported any problems in doing business abroad over the internet.

That's because we have, for the most part, net neutrality now.

Congestion problems are between the network provider and their customers, not a political issue at all.

Net neutrality shouldn't be a political issue either. We designed the net with that as a fundamental design principle.

I get good service at what I consider a reasonable price from Comcast and AT&T, I've got nothing to gripe about but just like all, I'd accept a lower price with no complaints.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but if you get 'good service' from those two, you have very low standards, indeed.

The local censorship post that started this thread is a local matter, none in this forum will be influential in settling that case.[/QUOTE]

[N4VGB]

Net neutrality shouldn't be a political issue either. We designed the net with that as a fundamental design principle.


Another Al Gore!!! :p:p:p

[AE6IP]

Another Al Gore!!! :p:p:p

Poor Al. Of all the things that he said that were dumb, the one everyone gives him a hard time for is one he never said.

But yes, I can say "we". I was among the few hundred people who made the NTP to TCP transition happen and who did a lot of the early development of the TCP version of the arpanet. You can find my name in early RFCs, and other RFCs that were authored by people working for me at the time; and I've done my time on the IETF.

I don't belong in the same group as Vint Cerf, and the very early pioneers, but I do belong in the group that scaled the arpanet from a few hundred machines to a few thousand interconnected networks.

I was also involved, from NASA's side, in the funding and building of NSF-net, as well as BARR-net, and can attest first hand that Gore did, indeed, do what he took credit for: push the funding for making the net accessible beyond the DoD, and eventually into the commercial realm. He was instrumental in funding what is now thought of as the "internet", at a time when DARPA was getting out of the internet business and wasn't having any luck finding a way to find it. One of the things Gore did understand and few others at the time did, was the commercial potential of widely available internetworking.

[N2RJ]

Those of you who think that net neutrality is no big deal, think of this -

What if AOL Time Warner, who owns CNN, decides to block off competitors such as FoxNews.com and MSNBC.com?

Remember AOL Time Warner isn't just AOL. It's Road Runner as well, one of the largest cable ISP's in the country.

Think it can't happen? Think again. In the early days of Fox News Channel, Time Warner Cable in NYC put up all sorts of roadblocks in order not to carry the channel. Eventually it was added to the lineup, but there was one time where Roger Ailes had actually asked Mayor Giuliani to carry FNC on one of the city's cable channels.

The net must remain neutral. No two ways about it.

ISP's already get away with firewalling off ports and in some cases breaking DNS. This shouldn't happen, but I can understand firewalling off some ports for security reasons (but they should open it when people ask).

All ISP's need to provide is a pipe, and maybe an email account. That's it.

[n2ize]

Those of you who think that net neutrality is no big deal, think of this -

What if AOL Time Warner, who owns CNN, decides to block off competitors such as FoxNews.com and MSNBC.com?

Remember AOL Time Warner isn't just AOL. It's Road Runner as well, one of the largest cable ISP's in the country.

Think it can't happen? Think again. In the early days of Fox News Channel, Time Warner Cable in NYC put up all sorts of roadblocks in order not to carry the channel. Eventually it was added to the lineup, but there was one time where Roger Ailes had actually asked Mayor Giuliani to carry FNC on one of the city's cable channels.

The net must remain neutral. No two ways about it.

ISP's already get away with firewalling off ports and in some cases breaking DNS.

Verizon already does this. If you access an unregistered domain instead of getting the usual error you get redirected to some Verizon search page. I was unaware of this because I normally run my own DNS which handles such situations correctly. Now for some people the alternate search page may be advantageous as it gives them alternate simialr domain names in the event they may have made a mistake or a typo. But it could cause problems with some apps.