Ethanol, Lets get real America !

[kf4vgx]

What can be our Alternative Energy Source ? Time for change.

New York Mercantile Exchange jumped to a new trading record of $103.05 a barrel in electronic trading before slipping back to $102.02 a barrel, down 57 cents, by midday in Europe.

Bush finds out about $4 gas forecasts,as if it were "new" news to him.


Gulf Ethanol, Corp. is developing ethanol production strategies along the Gulf Coast using non-food feed stocks for the production of ethanol rather than corn or sugar cane."

Research conducted by the University of North Dakota and the Minnesota Center for Automotive Research. Results showed that cars get better mileage with an E20-E30 ethanol blend than with gasoline. Harmful emissions were also reduced, the study found. Tests were conducted on automobiles.


http://www.gulfethanolcorp.com/gulf_ethanol_investors.htm

[n4sva]

I bet "Big Corn" will develop a conspiracy to surpress the use of non-food stock. You know those wealthy neocon farmers are lining the Bushies pockets...I'll bet W has stock interests in "Big Corn" too. :rolleyes:

[KD6NIG]

I'm not impressed with Ethanol being the solution after reading quite a few articles that show it will take more energy to produce 1 gallon of it versus one gallon of gas.

If the allegations as such are proven, going to Ethanol will only make things worse in the long run-sure its renewable, but you'll have to produce more of it in order to produce the kind of amounts needed to supplant or eliminate oil reliance.

[wa4brl]

I have great hope for improved technologies to reduce our dependency on oil for energy. I just don’t believe we’ll see any significant improvement any time soon (10-20 years?). So long as the oil companies’ profits increase as the price of crude rises, we’re in for more of the status quo. Indeed, these obscene profits guarantee big oil the ear of our elected representatives, ensuring the prevention or delay of institutional change. This is the reality for our current governmental process, regardless of which party holds sway.

Current technologies for producing ethanol from vegetative matter (feed grains or otherwise) is counterproductive from all perspectives.

First, we net less energy from the resulting ethanol than is consumed in production. It takes roughly 131,000 BTU’s of energy to produce one gallon of ethanol. That gallon of ethanol contains only 76,000 BTU’s of energy. Seventy percent of the energy is lost. For every gallon of ethanol produced, our nation suffers a net loss of 55,000 BTU’s.

Second, when one includes lost food production, lost forest cut for crop production, and the energy (coal, oil, etc.) burned to refine the ethanol, the overall carbon footprint of ethanol for energy is negative versus burning oil.

Perhaps worst of all, ethanol has only two-thirds the BTU’s of gasoline for each gallon. Therefore, using ethanol – and ALL ethanol/gasoline blends – results in fewer miles-per-gallon than gasoline alone. Don’t believe any claim that an ethanol blend results in greater mileage. Since ethanol has only 2/3 the energy, on should pay incrementally less for any gasoline blend that uses it. For example, if you normally pay $3.00 per gallon for regular gas, you should pay no more than $2.65 for an 85/15 gas/ethanol blend, paying the equivalent per BTU.

[W5GA]

The problem with all bio-fuels currently is that we can't produce enough feed stock to completely offset petro fuel use no matter what we grow.

The advantage to switch grass which is the non-food alternative for ethanol is it's native to some areas, and as such doesn't require cultivation. The drawback is it doesn't like cold climates, so it won't grow much north mid-Oklahoma...and it's too dry once you get west of OKC.

As to production costs, be wary of the studies you see. The ones that show ethanol costing more than gasoline, or consuming more energy than it produces were commissioned by, among others, Phillips Petroleum. Think they may have an axe to grind here?

The advantages to bio-fuel are obvious, especially now that most of the technical hurdles are past. If you want to see a really cost effective fuel, start pushing for Compressed Natural Gas. The current cost of a gas gallon equivalent is about 95 cents here in OK. You don't see much about it anymore, as the industry died for a lack of public infrastructure. Meaning there weren't many places to get it, so all the car companies pulled out of it.

As a Public School Fleet Manager with over 700 vehicles to feed and care for, I watch this very, very closely.

[nz3m]

Right now they are producing ethanol with corn and I don't think that's a good idea.

Just think about the demand for corn and the impact that will have. Sure, there is no impact now, but what percentage of engines are actually running on it? Imagine if every engine was using ethanol, and the demand for corn that will produce. Now think about all of the other products that use corn, there are many. We will be paying for ethanol, not only at the pump, but with the higher price of other products as well.

And I also have read some interesting articles on the subject. Most say it's not a clean burning fuel, and it's not an environmentally friendly process to produce it.

Dave

[W5GA]

Right now they are producing ethanol with corn and I don't think that's a good idea.

Just think about the demand for corn and the impact that will have. Sure, there is no impact now, but what percentage of engines are actually running on it? Imagine if every engine was using ethanol, and the demand for corn that will produce. Now think about all of the other products that use corn, there are many. We will be paying for ethanol, not only at the pump, but with the higher price of other products as well.

And I also have read some interesting articles on the subject. Most say it's not a clean burning fuel, and it's not an environmentally friendly process to produce it.

Dave

The corn they use isn't for human consumption, it's the same basic type used for animal feed. Doesn't taste very good to us, but cows love it.

It is a very clean burning fuel, contrary to what you've heard. As to being not environmentally friendly, it (like most industrial processes) uses lots of water.

Don't, under ANY conditions put E-85 in a vehicle that isn't marked as being "Flex Fuel". You will not be happy with the result at all. The stuff being sold as "gasohol" will work fine in anything. And don't expect good mileage. As has been pointed out, it lacks the BTU content of gasoline.

Any diesel currently made, or that has been made will run fine on biodiesel. If it's an older high mileage vehicle, have a couple of extra fuel filters on hand. Bio is a wonderful solvent, and any gunk in your tank/fuel lines (which is always there to some degree) will end up in your filters. Biodiesel is really neat from the aspect of it being 100% biodegradeable, so no more EPA problems with a spill. At blends up to about B-20 (20% bio, 80% petro), it's fine in colder weather too, at least down to about 15F.

[nz3m]

The corn they use isn't for human consumption, it's the same basic type used for animal feed. Doesn't taste very good to us, but cows love it.

Well, that really doesn't matter. So, the cow's food prices will rise, in turn beef and milk prices go up. It's still will have a huge demand. The impact on farming will be significant in my opinion.

Dave

[W5GA]

The impact on farming will be significant in my opinion.

Dave


You and I certainly agree on that point. We stand to make a good bit, regardless of the crop be it corn, soybeans or switchgrass.

[w8gtf]

Hmmm..I had always heard that if every farmable acre of land in the US was planted for Ethanol, we still wouldn't be able to produce enough to wean America off of foreign oil.

Then, there's that pesky problem where a gallon of ethanol has less BTU's of energy than a gallon of gas (translation, it takes more ethanol to go the same distance).

Wake me up when you solve those two problems.

[W4BD]

Well you can tell who was raised in the Country and who was raised in the big city. Corn is corn you have SWEET Corn which is what you find frozen or canned or on the produce aisle. You have field corn which the people who live in the country eat as "roastn ears". You catch field corn when it's still soft and shuck it and cut it off the cobb and put it in a frying pan with some bacon grease and cook it for a while. We also took the field corn after it got past roasn ear stage and had corn on the cobb. Needles to say a lot of the field corn was frozen. The field corn ears are a lot larger than sweet corn and most stalks had 2 to 3 times as many ears.

Down here in Seminole County we grow a bunch of sweet corn and a bunch of field corn. A lot of the peanut and cotton farmers have said they were not planting cotton or peanuts this Spring but were going to plant field corn due to an ethanol plant being built in Camilla about 45 miles from here. Look out for the price of corn and peanuts and cotton to go up like a rocket.

73's

[wb7dmx]

sounds great to me, we have 160 acres of corn ready to plant now.
$$$

[w9fnb]

Very simple econ to me right now...BP/gas...$3.09+ p/gal
E85...$2.45...Ind Corn/Ind produced fuel...JOBS!...Here...
not where there is lots of sand!
My truck BP/fuel 21mpg...E85/19mpg with more HP(runs better) runs cooler and 115,000+ miles and 1 set of plugs/ also use synthetic oil...I buy E85 anytime I find it.
All the Best
Gary/W9FNB

[KD4LEI]

in order to get it produced, I would be for it. Some hams did a test on their mileage with the 10% blend and using normal gas. They got better mileage with the regular gas. I am not so sure ethanol is the answer...

Here is a Newsweek article addressing some concerns about ethanol

http://www.newsweek.com/id/114364?from=rss

[KG4CGC]

God forbid that America should ever grow marijuana to produce fuel oil like we did up until the 30's. The resins from that plant produce almost as many distillates as petroleum when used in that manner.

[KI4PEQ]

And the marijuana fumes, like the fumes that diesels produce by burning vegetable oil, will give you a good case of the munchies! :D

[KD4LEI]

And the marijuana fumes, like the fumes that diesels produce by burning vegetable oil, will give you a good case of the munchies! :D

All the folks in the wake of the fumes. Whoa man!

[k4kyv]

God forbid that America should ever grow marijuana to produce fuel oil like we did up until the 30's. The resins from that plant produce almost as many distillates as petroleum when used in that manner.

Industrial hemp would be an economical fuel if hemp were legal to cultivate in the United States. Industrial hemp has no psychoactive properties and is not a drug.

Hemp biomass as a source of fuel is the most under-exploited use of hemp, due to the fact that it is economically unfeasible at this time. Hemp stalks can be used in the generation of energy through a process called "chemurgy" which is a cross between chemicals and energy. The hemp stalk can be converted into a charcoal-like substance through a process called pyrolysis, and used for power generation and to produce industrial feed stocks. Auto giant Henry Ford was a pioneer in the pyrolysis process, and operated a biomass pyrolytic plant at Iron Mountain in northern Michigan.

Hemp as an auto fuel is another potential use. Almost any biomass material can be converted into methanol or ethanol, and these fuels burn cleanly with less carbon monoxide and higher octane. In fact, the diesel engine was invented to burn fuel from agricultural waste, yet ended up burning unrefined petroleum. Hemp seed oil can also be refined to produce a type of biofuel. Woody Harrelson recently toured the west coast with a diesel bus run on hemp biofuel, and a hemp-powered car toured North America a few summers ago, demonstrating the environmental benefits of biofuels.

http://www.thehia.org/

[KI4ITV]

All the folks in the wake of the fumes. Whoa man!
It will certainly change the dynamics of traffic jams, and "road rage" just may be a thing of the past!
:D

[KC9JIQ]

Ethanol is the result of liberalism, a feel good program that actually does more damage in the long run.

[w4rot]

The whole deal is that yeast work cheap. No days off, no holidays, 24/7 if you give them what they need, fermentable sugars. Cane works ok, you can grow it pretty quick and has the sucrose content to keep the little ones fed and pooping out EtOH. Corn works ok because of the starch content which is tiny on a per plant basis. Yeast can do nothing with the starch though. Starch has to be converted to smaller units, ideally glucose which is the Holy Grail of fermentable/reducing sugars for most the most part. Enzymatic systems have been around for years which will convert starch to glucose at about 99% yield. So EtOH producers are now using starch/enzyme systems to tweak out a bit of EtOH. It does tend to screw up food prices since the bipeds can convert starch via amylases in saliva and actually get nutritional value from it. The bipeds will piss and moan about the price and rightfully so.

In walks our friend the cow. This stupid beast has actually employed a flora of bacteria which can convert cellulose to smaller sugars, maybe even glucose and be just as happy as a peanut doing so. The termite has done the same thing using bacteria which provide the cellulases for them. So they munch on the stalks and graze about chomping your floor joist or whatever to get some usable food.

The funky part is that cellulose is quite abundant, about 50% dry weight in all plants compared to starch which only occurs in minor amounts in a few plants.

The rub is that starch has glucose bound for the most part by one bond which lies within the plane of its linkees to it hold together. It is very easily busted. Not a problem. Everybody does it. Even cows. Not sure the about termites though.

Cellulose on the other hand is a PITA because this bond lies across plane of its linkees and is very stable and hard to bust. Plus cellulose is intertwined with lignin in various scenarios and hard to get access to. But hell, cellulose is designed to be a structural component to allow plants to stand tall if they wish. Cellulose is not intended to be a source of food/fermentable sugars even though it contains the same Holy Grail component, glucose.

Cellulosic EtOH producers are looking at the stoichiometry of the conversions from cellulose to sugars to EtOH via yeast and drooling. But as noted before drool only works on starch not cellulose. So they are playing with different enzyme systems, yeast strains etc at the pilot scale. Actual data is still proprietary and I doubt you will find real scaled up figures posted on internet sites. It will take a while to sort things out and they like everybody else are driven by cost, but it could beneficial at some scale,IMHO. In no way will it be the panacea, but it is an option and is being supported by quite a bit of DOE money as are other things I guess.

If you have a better idea go for it and change an industry...Rome wasn't built in day they say, but I really don't know because I wasn't there.

rot

[n7wr]

Ethanol--my state is now requiring that ethanol be mixed with fuel. Even though my new vehicle is supposedly made to run on this crap it does not run well and fuel mileage sucks. With the government cash incentives to grow corn to make the darned stuff many farmers have switched their crops to corn thus cutting down significantly on growing hay. Result? Less hay which equals higher prices (125% increase just last year yielding highest hay prices ever). For those of us with livestock who have to feed tons of hay each year that is not good news. Net result, we get screwed twice because the government will not allow petroleum companies to tap the many known sources of fossil fuel that exist within the borders of the continental USA. Thanks Uncle Sam!

[N4PRT]

The ethanol industry is a huge governmental subsidized joke on the American consumer. Almost every biofuel endeavor uses more energy to produce than it ultimately delivers. Even taking the energy investment in production away, ethanol is considerably less efficient in delivering MPG to a vehicle--and we interestingly pay the same price for this reduced mileage gasohol.

The real problem with American oil consumption is our obsession with fuel hog engines that deliver tremendous horsepower and quick speed. What for? Europe and other nations recognized decades ago that fuel efficiency was key to vehicle operation--as they have never had the supplies of cheap gasoline that supported the American auto fantasy.

[N3ATS]

We have unleaded gasoline here with a 10% ethanol blend here at certain gas stations. There is no choice, the unleaded is a 10% ethanol blend and it costs the same a unleaded gas anywhere else. No separate pump for it.

Ethanol equals less MPG at the same price as plain old gasoline. No thanks.

[KG4CGC]

Ethanol is the result of liberalism, a feel good program that actually does more damage in the long run.
That's such a smart and intelligent comment. Thank you for sharing you astute observation on this weighty matter Mr. Hannity.

Well Mr. Hannity, how in your estimation, did we arrive where we are now? Is it due to the liberal policies of the Bush administration?

Gosh, you got me Mr. Hannity! This isn't the political section! You're too smart for me!

[KC9JIQ]

We have unleaded gasoline here with a 10% ethanol blend here at certain gas stations. There is no choice, the unleaded is a 10% ethanol blend and it costs the same a unleaded gas anywhere else. No separate pump for it.

Ethanol equals less MPG at the same price as plain old gasoline. No thanks.

The only "real 200%" gas is 93 octane, but many gas stations has dropped 93, you can only find it as name brand stations like Shell, etc. it too is being phased out for the ethanol blends.

[KD4LEI]

It will certainly change the dynamics of traffic jams, and "road rage" just may be a thing of the past!
:D

Imagine all the happy-go-lucky driver's.... :D

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/060907/123046__dazed_l.jpg

[G0GQK]

Don't know why you folks in the US keep complaining about the cost of liquid engine fuel, gasoline. An article in a newspaper stated that in the US, petrol, to you, gasoline, is 28 pence a litre in British money. A litre of petrol, same stuff, different name, in Britain is up to 108 pence, again 108 pence. Same stuff but 80 pence more expensive, and 75 pence tax is paid on a litre, which no doubt is mostly spent on the wars which have been created in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Just thank your lucky stars you aren't paying that much for your Suvjuice !

G0GQK

[W5HTW]

Energy is energy. You can't create it. It comes from another source. All you can do is convert it.

So the question becomes, what is best convertible, widely available, and relatively cheap? It isn't ethanol.

We keep playing with alternate energy forms, but nearly all of them, both for vehicles and for general energy use, come with a staggering price, and/or have critically low reliability. Only one stands out as feasible, and we all know that one is hydrogen. With the money being spent to find this or that fuel, we could develope hydrogen power quite quickly. A concentrated effort by the National Labs, which would mean no private industry profits in the research, would put hydrogen powered vehicles in the hands of the public within 5 to 8 years. The technology is there, is in place. Part of the problem is the fear of the Hindenberg. Fact is, hydrogen was not the culprit in that crash, but it is so burned (pun intended!) into everyone's minds that hydrogen is a no-no that we can't get past that.

Ah, but gasoline is a no-no, too. But we use it constantly.

The oil companies could get in on the ride to hydrogen. The problem there is they are locked into current profits, rather than interested in developing new technology.

There is nothing else on the horizon that offers some solution. As already stated, if ethanol becomes a backgone fuel, food prices with skyrocket. Corn will disappear from our diets. As will corn oil and other products we use daily.

To be honest, I see a future city in which there will be no driving at all. None. If you have a car and live in the country, you park outside the city limits and ride public transit or walk. No choices. The only motorized vehicles will be owned and operated by the city.

Until that happens, we need to look at other ways of addressing our transportation.

On a parallel course, there is a strong push for solar and wind energy. Experts have indicated that at the very best, those alternate forms, together, could supply up to 15 percent of the CURRENT needs of power. But as the population continues to double every few years, that 15 percent will be 3 percent in a short time. What will the other 97 percent do? Freeze in the cold dark? Yep.

We need to get rid of the pie in the sky attitudes and really get down to the business of solving present and future energy problems. Address hydrogen as a vehicle fuel, and nuclear energy as a stationary fuel.

Those are our realistic choices.

[w4rot]

There is nothing else on the horizon that offers some solution. As already stated, if ethanol becomes a backgone fuel, food prices with skyrocket. Corn will disappear from our diets. As will corn oil and other products we use daily.

This just is not true. Once a process for breaking down cellulose is costworthy corn will not even be used. It is used now for the starch not the cellulose. You could use grass clippings if you like. Actually you can produce hydrogen from cellulose as well.
Google...Hydrogen from cellulose
rot

[kk7ue]

I run a 97 geo on E85 and only lost 7% mileage. In a car not designed to run it! 50/50 custom blends work great in my other two rigs with a similar or less loss.

Some of you get it, some of you never will. That is all the comment I am willing to put in at this time. I have a vested interest in this and have the balls to admit it.

Gluco-amylase is da $#!* baby!

[w4rot]

Gluco-amylase is da $#!* baby!
I totally agree..It is the work horse.:D
rot

[NC5P]

The only ones it benefits is Archer Daniels Midland. That crooked company has soaked the American people billions. They have financed most members of congress in their election campaigns and have been payed back. Meanwhile, we don't grow enough food to eat, we have to import much of it. It's too important to make political paybacks to not let people go hungry.

[KG4CGC]

To be honest, I see a future city in which there will be no driving at all. None. If you have a car and live in the country, you park outside the city limits and ride public transit or walk. No choices. The only motorized vehicles will be owned and operated by the city.

http://songza.com/z/ga460n

[KI4PEQ]

The whole deal is that yeast work cheap. No days off, no holidays, 24/7 if you give them what they need, fermentable sugars. Cane works ok, you can grow it pretty quick and has the sucrose content to keep the little ones fed and pooping out EtOH. Corn works ok because of the starch content which is tiny on a per plant basis. Yeast can do nothing with the starch though. Starch has to be converted to smaller units, ideally glucose which is the Holy Grail of fermentable/reducing sugars for most the most part. Enzymatic systems have been around for years which will convert starch to glucose at about 99% yield. So EtOH producers are now using starch/enzyme systems to tweak out a bit of EtOH. It does tend to screw up food prices since the bipeds can convert starch via amylases in saliva and actually get nutritional value from it. The bipeds will piss and moan about the price and rightfully so.

In walks our friend the cow. This stupid beast has actually employed a flora of bacteria which can convert cellulose to smaller sugars, maybe even glucose and be just as happy as a peanut doing so. The termite has done the same thing using bacteria which provide the cellulases for them. So they munch on the stalks and graze about chomping your floor joist or whatever to get some usable food.

The funky part is that cellulose is quite abundant, about 50% dry weight in all plants compared to starch which only occurs in minor amounts in a few plants.

The rub is that starch has glucose bound for the most part by one bond which lies within the plane of its linkees to it hold together. It is very easily busted. Not a problem. Everybody does it. Even cows. Not sure the about termites though.

Cellulose on the other hand is a PITA because this bond lies across plane of its linkees and is very stable and hard to bust. Plus cellulose is intertwined with lignin in various scenarios and hard to get access to. But hell, cellulose is designed to be a structural component to allow plants to stand tall if they wish. Cellulose is not intended to be a source of food/fermentable sugars even though it contains the same Holy Grail component, glucose.

Cellulosic EtOH producers are looking at the stoichiometry of the conversions from cellulose to sugars to EtOH via yeast and drooling. But as noted before drool only works on starch not cellulose. So they are playing with different enzyme systems, yeast strains etc at the pilot scale. Actual data is still proprietary and I doubt you will find real scaled up figures posted on internet sites. It will take a while to sort things out and they like everybody else are driven by cost, but it could beneficial at some scale,IMHO. In no way will it be the panacea, but it is an option and is being supported by quite a bit of DOE money as are other things I guess.

If you have a better idea go for it and change an industry...Rome wasn't built in day they say, but I really don't know because I wasn't there.

rot

Mr. Wizard lives! :D

[KI4PEQ]

People in Europe park in the hinterlands and ride public transport as a matter of course. But then the public transport in Europe is highly advanced.

[KE7JFA]

Don't know why you folks in the US keep complaining about the cost of liquid engine fuel, gasoline. An article in a newspaper stated that in the US, petrol, to you, gasoline, is 28 pence a litre in British money. A litre of petrol, same stuff, different name, in Britain is up to 108 pence, again 108 pence. Same stuff but 80 pence more expensive, and 75 pence tax is paid on a litre, which no doubt is mostly spent on the wars which have been created in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Just thank your lucky stars you aren't paying that much for your Suvjuice !

G0GQK

You got that right! Holland they are paying equal to 8.00 USD a gallon!

The USA just needs to shut up and be thankful we have 3.00 a gallon gas!

[k5okc]

Where do you get the water to make ethanol?

Turns out they are pulling the water out of the Ogallala aquifer. An aquifer that is already stressed from big farms (growing corn, no less). Corn is a high water usage crop, and not suitable for the colorado/kansas plains.

The water pulling is so severe, the rivers above ground do not flow anymore.

We are killing the future.

If you want to make ethanol, then you should learn to make it with sea water, not drinking water.

If you want to grow an alternative fuel, then the best is a biodiesel called algae. You can grow it next to a power plant, as it uses waste carbon dioxide from the power plant.

Built in large farms, it will produce both food and fuel.

[w4rot]

Where do you get the water to make ethanol?

Turns out they are pulling the water out of the Ogallala aquifer. An aquifer that is already stressed from big farms (growing corn, no less). Corn is a high water usage crop, and not suitable for the colorado/kansas plains.

The water pulling is so severe, the rivers above ground do not flow anymore.

We are killing the future.

If you want to make ethanol, then you should learn to make it with sea water, not drinking water.

If you want to grow an alternative fuel, then the best is a biodiesel called algae. You can grow it next to a power plant, as it uses waste carbon dioxide from the power plant.

Built in large farms, it will produce both food and fuel.

Excellent question dude!
I have not thought about the water consumption issues that much and it damn well needs to be understood.
Just from the gutfeel..I would hope a cellulosic system would offer relief from the stress of overgrowing corn. Corn needs to grown for food, not fuel. Hopefully it would provide an opportunity to grow soil amending/healing crops which could be used to supply EtOH producers. The fermentation process, I would hope allow for a large portion of water to be recyled, but some water will be lost or bound as azeotropes to the EtOH...I would guess 5 to 10%. This seems small,but could very well be huge numbers scaled up. I have no clue on the level of water reuse.
Stressing any area of water resources is an extremely bad practice with a huge price to pay. If this were the case..thumbs down here on the whole deal.
Thanks for the post man.
rot

[k5upi]

Why Dont We Let The People From Tennesee And Kentucky Deside This Issue. They Really Know What To Do With Corn. Cheers!!

[ve2nsm]

Really, I think we should find a way to make energy out of 5h17. This is the only matter that will never dissapear, and some people are full of it. :D

[n0ov]

And the marijuana fumes, like the fumes that diesels produce by burning vegetable oil, will give you a good case of the munchies! :D


Sure would make that evening traffic jam more interesting

[KG6OPR]

I think I'll invest in the Stant Locking Gas Cap Co. Or the Gates Rubber Hose Co.

[kl7aj]

What people tend to leave out in this debate is ACTUAL SCIENCE. As far as energy per pound is concerned, gasoline still beats the pants of ethanol. In fact, in terms of BTUs per acre, oil is still the most efficient energy source known to man, with coal following close behind. Physics trumps politics every time.

eric

[w6ire]

Ethanol cannot be transported in pipelines. That should end any debate right there.

[W5GA]

Ethanol cannot be transported in pipelines. That should end any debate right there.

What prevents if from being moved in a pipeline?

[N3ATS]

It's corrosive.

[kf4vgx]

Freiburg - solar powered car ,the panel on the roof and on front dash are solar energy receptors.

http://picasaweb.google.com/judiavi/OurTripToAustria/photo#5071240126276863890


I tend to think this is an option.:rolleyes: