Bluetooth, the future of radio

[W6GQ]

Yaesu has it but now,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Cobra Once Again Redefines the CB Radio with the addition of Bluetooth®

Cobra Electronics Announces First-of-its-Kind CB Radio with Bluetooth


http://cobra.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=page.display&page_id=109

http://gizmodo.com/358936/cobra-29-ltd-bt-is-the-worlds-first-bluetooth-cb-radio-10+4-good-buddy

[AE6IP]

For some time, you have had to have bluetooth on your cell phone in order to sell many into the European Market.

It's barely catching on now in the US.

It's amazing how badly it tends to work.

[K8MHZ]

Yaesu has it but now,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

http://cobra.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=page.display&page_id=109

http://gizmodo.com/358936/cobra-29-ltd-bt-is-the-worlds-first-bluetooth-cb-radio-10+4-good-buddy

According to Yaesu's own site they do not offer Bluetooth yet. Yes, they can be purchased at outlets here in the states but I question the legality of using them under current FCC rules. I have contacted the FCC with my concerns and have not gotten the answer I specifically asked and have asked for clarification. Here is the answer I did receive from them:

Here's the answer from the rules guy

From: William Cross
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 11:28 AM
To: FCCHAM
Subject: RE: Bluetooth and amateur radio


Bluetooth, as I understand it, is a technology used for cellular calls. For regulatory purposes, we consider cellular as wireline communications in that it is treated as part of the telephone system. Interconnecting an amateur station to the telecommunications system raises third party communication issues, but not "re-transmission of another radio service" issues.

From: FCCHAM
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 3:40 PM
To: William Cross
Subject: FW: Bluetooth and amateur radio




From: k8mhz@k8mhz.com [mailto:k8mhz@k8mhz.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:53 PM
To: FCCHAM
Subject: Bluetooth and amateur radio


Hello,

I hope this message finds you in good health and spirits.

The subject of using Bluetooth, a 2.4 GHz Part 15 wireless device has come up on a discussion forum and can be viewed here:

http://www.eham.net/articles/18197

I observed that CFR 47 Part 97.113(e) states that an amateur station shall not retransmit, with few exceptions, signals from a station outside the amateur service.

My question is simply, does the use of Bluetooth and similar devices violate the requirements of 97.113(e)? If you could answer my question and refer me to a section that allows such use I would be greatly indebted.

To validate my curiosity I would like to add that I teach amateur radio at Muskegon Technical Academy (W8MTA) and am very interested in new technology as are the folks that have posted to the eHam thread I supplied a link to. I also make a prudent attempt to know, understand and teach the requirements of Part 97, the NEC, local codes and the other requirements of CFR 47 as they apply to amateur radio. Your response will be passed on to both the students in my class as well as posted to the eHam thread.

Thank you and 73

Mark K8MHZ

My response for clarification, currently unanswered, is thus:



Hello,

Thank you for the reply but it did not answer my question. Bluetooth is not a technology used exclusively for cellular calls. Yaesu now markets a radio that uses it as can be seen in this link, please take a look at it and notice the Bluetooth kit available for sale there. http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/fm_txvrs/0813.html.

Also, Bluetooth headsets intended for use with cell phones are being modified by amateur radio operators to be used with amateur radio transceivers. The modification enables the transceiver to be used with a wireless headset and is not connected to the telephone system in any way. The issue I question is twofold. First, as I previously mentioned, a Part 15 transmitter is used in conjunction with a transmitter in the amateur service and therein exists a retransmission. Second, there is no way for the transceiver to properly ID when transmitting via the Part 15 device back to the headset.

A look at the Yaesu website and it's entry for the radio in question indicates that the Bluetooth accessories are "coming soon" wheras Universal Radio is already selling them.

http://www.yaesu.com/indexVS.cfm?cmd=DisplayProducts&ProdCatID=106&encProdID=AF7E08DC3F2467B1B4B2CB4DA49BCF88&DivisionID=65&isArchived=0

Please, if you could, answer my question. Is the use of Bluetooth accessories with amateur radio legal in the US?

Thanks,

Mark Derby K8MHZ

[AE6IP]

Wow. That "rules guy" really knows his stuff. </sarcasm>

Bluetooth is a wireless networking technology intended for "personal area" networking. It is popular in telephony because of its wireless headset support, but there are also bluetooth local area network products, mice, and keyboards available.

As such, I suspect that bluetooth technology, especially in peering mode, doesn't meet the definition of station as used in 97.113(e).

[ka5s]

can be purchased at outlets here in the states but I question the legality of using them under current FCC rules. I have contacted the FCC with my concerns and have not gotten the

Mark, I suspect the Commission is uninterested in providing advisory opinions for us.

We have a 905-928 allocation where we can also buy and use frequency hopping and spread spectrum wireless and cordless consumer technology. Is it lawful to use a cordless telephone or SS radio to control an amateur Radio station? If they are lawful extensions of the public switched telephone network, maybe it is. But we can't use those consumer SS techniques in the Amateur allocation!

Perhaps Bluetooth is lawful if we keep it off the Amateur part of the 2400 Mhz allocation.

And perhaps we should remember that when we ask a question, we may get an answer we don't want to hear.

For what it is worth, I can't even get Bluetooth to work with my cellphone, and what a shame it is that I actually have to touch a key or speak into a microphone to use my radio. Heh!

Cortland
KA5S

[K8MHZ]

Wow. That "rules guy" really knows his stuff. </sarcasm>

Bluetooth is a wireless networking technology intended for "personal area" networking. It is popular in telephony because of its wireless headset support, but there are also bluetooth local area network products, mice, and keyboards available.

As such, I suspect that bluetooth technology, especially in peering mode, doesn't meet the definition of station as used in 97.113(e).

I still would like to hear it right from the 'horse's mouth'. I have managed, with persistence, to so far, get my questions eventually answered by the FCC. It is best to have such questions answered in writing by the enforcement agency having jurisdiction over the issue instead of taking a formal stand on one's own interpretation of the rules.

[AE6IP]

I still would like to hear it right from the 'horse's mouth'. I have managed, with persistence, to so far, get my questions eventually answered by the FCC. It is best to have such questions answered in writing by the enforcement agency having jurisdiction over the issue instead of taking a formal stand on one's own interpretation of the rules.

I've just been over the CFR title 47, and I now suspect that the FCC doesn't have an answer to your question. The reason is that everywhere station is defined it is defined in the context of a specific service, ie, fixed station, amateur station. BT operates as a part 15 RFD and therefore, is not part of a service and so there's no applicable definition of station. Another way of saying this, that I found on a web site is

What is FCC and how does it relate to Bluetooth? - FCC is Federal Communication Commission, which issues licenses to the stations for specific frequencies. It also decides who is able to use which frequency for what purpose. Since Bluetooth is using unlicensed spectrum, FCC has no direct involvement with Bluetooth

I agree that it's preferable where possible to have clear guidance from the regulatory agency, but you're not going to get it from someone who doesn't even know what BT is or how it fits into the rules.

For me, this looks like a case where it's better to let sleeping dog lie.

[K8MHZ]

For me, this looks like a case where it's better to let sleeping dog lie.

Double entendre?

:D

[K8MHZ]

Mark, I suspect the Commission is uninterested in providing advisory opinions for us.

We have a 905-928 allocation where we can also buy and use frequency hopping and spread spectrum wireless and cordless consumer technology. Is it lawful to use a cordless telephone or SS radio to control an amateur Radio station? If they are lawful extensions of the public switched telephone network, maybe it is. But we can't use those consumer SS techniques in the Amateur allocation!

Perhaps Bluetooth is lawful if we keep it off the Amateur part of the 2400 Mhz allocation.

And perhaps we should remember that when we ask a question, we may get an answer we don't want to hear.

For what it is worth, I can't even get Bluetooth to work with my cellphone, and what a shame it is that I actually have to touch a key or speak into a microphone to use my radio. Heh!

Cortland
KA5S

Hi Cortland,

I can see how the technology would be useful, but there may be some rule amending to make everything above board.

Interestingly, the only place I can find the manual for the headset is on the FCC's own website. In that manual it states two issues of concern. One is that the device is not to be used in conjunction of any other transmitter, the other is that it (the headset) has be be kept 20 cm or 8 inches away from the body do comply with FCC rules.

https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=857552&native_or_pdf=pdf

CAUTION: This device and its antenna(s) must not be co-located or operated in conjunction
with any other antenna or transmitter.To comply with FCC RF exposure compliance requirements, a separation distance of at
least 20cm must be maintained between the antenna of this device and all persons.So, it seems they are interested enough to put the manual on their website!

73 and see you at Hudsonville!

[g4lna]

For some time, you have had to have bluetooth on your cell phone in order to sell many into the European Market.

It's barely catching on now in the US.

It's amazing how badly it tends to work.

I wish it wasn't catching on over here as well, they look like the Borg going around Sainsburys shopping with that thing stuck in their ear 'ole, is it so imperative they must be connected all the time in case they might miss that all important call? Load of twits.

Rant over :D

[AE6IP]

So, it seems they are interested enough to put the manual on their website!

It means that Vertex has filed an application (K660F444X10) to have the device certified by the FCC.

They've also filed one (K660F434X10) for the BU-1.

They have to do this, since the devices are sold as part 15 devices.

BH-1 is the headset, but it won't work without BU-1, which is the adapter for the transceiver.

Since both applications were granted months ago, supply chain issues would be the only reason that they're not on sale in the US, if they're not.

By the way, FCC grant of authorization would imply that the FCC approves of the intended use, which is clearly spelled out in both applications. I think we've found the molars.

[K8MHZ]

It means that Vertex has filed an application (K660F444X10) to have the device certified by the FCC.

They've also filed one (K660F434X10) for the BU-1.

They have to do this, since the devices are sold as part 15 devices.

BH-1 is the headset, but it won't work without BU-1, which is the adapter for the transceiver.

Since both applications were granted months ago, supply chain issues would be the only reason that they're not on sale in the US, if they're not.

By the way, FCC grant of authorization would imply that the FCC approves of the intended use, which is clearly spelled out in both applications. I think we've found the molars.

I don't understand how anyone would be able to use the sets *and* meet the requirements. Especially the one about keeping it 20cm from the body.

You say the apps were granted, but were they approved?

I still see a fly in the ointment.....

[AE6IP]

I don't understand how anyone would be able to use the sets *and* meet the requirements. Especially the one about keeping it 20cm from the body.

You say the apps were granted, but were they approved?

I still see a fly in the ointment.....

They were approved. The grant is the approval. An EAA is application for "Equipment Authorization" and the grant is the grant of authorization.


You can go to The EAS search site (https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm) and put K66 in the first field and 0F434X10 in the second then click the search button to see the application for BU-1 which was granted 6/6/07

Back to the form and change the second field to 0F444X10 to see the grant date for the BH-1 which was 10/27/07

The devices are very similar to any number of bluetooth headsets and bluetooth adapters already on the market, so the grant was probably routine.

[ka5piu]

Hello.

Bluetooth comes in 2 "flavors", the 10 meter range and the 100 meter range.
The power level of the 10 meter range stuff is so low that putting a radio in your ear is not a problem, nor inside your cellphone.
Now, the only issue I would have with Amateur Radio is the fact that bluetooth is encrypted, but it would appear that the FCC has already worked that out.
Excellent, as I have bought cheap bluetooth car adaptors in the hopes of doing this with Amateur talkies.
And, the cobra unit is not fully handsfree.
Look at the mic, see the little blue button with the bluetooth logo?
That is the push to talk for bluetooth, remember, current consumer bluetooth earsets have no PTT.
One can also pick up the mic and talk that way.

[AE6IP]

Bluetooth doesn't come in two classes. There are three classes, and they're defined by power rating:

1 100mW (20dBm)
2 2.5mW (4dBm)
3 1 mW (0dBm)

The 'range' rating is a consumer guideline only

Nor is bluetooth necessarily encrypted, that's negotiated at connect time. Not that it matters, as the headset-to-adapter path will be governed by part 15 anyway.

Why would you use a cheap bt car adapter? they're basically low power fm transmitters and wouldn't give you what you wanted.

There are bt headsets with ptt, by the way, although they call it 'muting' and have it backwards ;)

[ka0gkt]

Bluetooth is a standard and communications protocol primarily designed for low power consumption, with a short range (power-class-dependent: 1 meter, 10 meters, 100 meters) based on low-cost transceiver microchips in each device. There are three classes and two present versions of Bluetooth. Class 1 equipment has a maximum Power Output of 100 mW, class 2; 2.5 mW and class 3; 1 mW. Presently there are two versions in use with VER 1.2 running 1 Mbit/s and VER 2.0 running 3 Mbit/s. Bluetooth uses frequency-hopping spread spectrum technology between 2.402 GHz and 2.480 GHz.

Bluetooth enables enabled devices to communicate with each other when they are in range. The devices use a radio communications system, so they do not have to be in line of sight of each other, and can even be in other rooms, as long as the received transmission is powerful enough.

While Bluetooth is used on some cellular telephones, it is NOT a cellular phone system per se. Bluetooth has a number applications, cellular phone headsets being but one of many. Bluetooth is used for game controllers (like on the Nintendo Wi) and to transfer data between PDAs and Personal Computers.

Most cell phone headsets are type three, 1 Mbit/s devices and quite frankly sound like crud warmed over. Even though my work cell phone is Bluetooth enables, I still use a hard-wired headset when mobile because it is far more intelligible than the Bluetooth piece of sh...err...Junk!

As far as a CB which is Bluetooth enabled, perhaps they HAVE come up with a way to make a CB less intelligible than before and therefore more worthless (I didn't even think it were possible!).

Bluetooth on an amateur radio? Perhaps if I wanted to have a wireless, very slow printer, but not for a microphone, headphone or anything which must convey a real-time communications quality intelligence.

[KE6SHJ]

I have used a bluetooth device on mu cell for about 4 years now, but for ham radio? I've heard of it but no I wont be using it for that. My cell is enough. Besides you can not very well use it while doing CW!!!!!!

[ka5piu]

Hello.

I guess I was not clear.
I bought some bluetooth adaptors that were intended to adapt a cellular handset that has no bluetooth.
The ones I have found do 5VDC at perhaps 1/2 amp.
The audio is sent out by whatever connector that cellphone needs.
Not a problem, as I simply add whatever connectors I need.
For the VX-7R, I provide 12 volts directly.
For the VX-3, I use the 5 volts.
This works well, as, the stuff is cheap, remember, cellphones change on an almost yearly basis.
For the talkies in a mobile configuration, this works great.

[AE6IP]

Most cell phone headsets are type three, 1 Mbit/s devices and quite frankly sound like crud warmed over.

Investigate the A2DP profile. If your cellphone can handle it, something like the Moto Rokr S9 or the Jabra BT3030 will give you nearly as high quality as any wired cellphone headset -- certainly higher quality than the cell phone's own audio bandwidth.

Bluetooth on an amateur radio? Perhaps if I wanted to have a wireless, very slow printer, but not for a microphone, headphone or anything which must convey a real-time communications quality intelligence.

Most recent BT headsets are version 2.1-EDR at 3 Mbit/s. They'll give you perfectly usable audio for amateur applications, but lack an easy to use interface for PTT.

[AE6IP]

I guess I was not clear.
I bought some bluetooth adaptors that were intended to adapt a cellular handset that has no bluetooth.

You're right. You weren't clear. There's no way that "cheap bluetooth car adaptors" could be taken to mean handset dongle.


The ones I have found do 5VDC at perhaps 1/2 amp.
The audio is sent out by whatever connector that cellphone needs.
Not a problem, as I simply add whatever connectors I need.

Except those adapters don't provide you any PTT capability because they're duplex.

[k9zmd]

Whether we understand it or not, many folks like to be "connected" at all times. Be cheered by the fact that every person with an unfashionable cricket in the ear is one more person who won't be holding a cell phone in one hand and half-fast driving with the other.

And there's those folks who are compelled to run around with a shack on the belt all the time . . . and then trying to drive while juggling talkie, DC power cord, and speaker mike. Hmmm, wouldn't we all be better off if they had a cricket in the ear, too?

[ka5piu]

You're right. You weren't clear. There's no way that "cheap bluetooth car adaptors" could be taken to mean handset dongle.



Except those adapters don't provide you any PTT capability because they're duplex.

Hello.

The things are not handset dongles, although I now make use if them also.
Both the VX-3 and the VX-7 are easily able to deal with this.
In the case of the 12 volt, automobile battery powered unit, a press button is easily fitted.
In the case of the dongles, VOX seems to be the best option, except for the Jabra for Nokia dongles.
Pressing the function button on the earset brings one line down, and does nothing to the audio chain.
After about an hour, I came up with the solution.
I connect the mic line hot as normal, but run return (ground) to this line.
The function button is now PTT.
The dongles are self-powered, normally charged inline with the cellphone.
The charger provided is larger, so, after a bit of connector changing, I can now use the original VX-3 charger, or a Nokia charger, or the Jabra charger.
The VX-7R, of course, can accept 12 volts directly, so this is not as much of a concern.
As there are stereo bluetooth adaptors, and the VX-3 does have a stereo out, I may look into that, but, right now, everything works well as is.