MARS WinLink in Tennessee Storms

[N1IN]

Those tornados that swept across the Mid South Feb. 5 and 6 carried Army MARS into a new era of operations. For the first time as far back as we can remember, a state government called for MARS deployment in response to an actual emergency. The resulting teamwork gave the Tennessee Emergency Management Agency—TEMA—its only e-mail link during President Bush’s visit to the storm-stricken area. That link was the army MARS WinLink 2000 Radio e-mail system.

Stuart S. Carter, the Army MARS Chief, gave a full account of the MARS tornado response on his biweekly broadcast to members Feb. 15. Compiled from several after-action reports, Carter’s account follows verbatim.

On Tuesday, 5 Feb 08, Region 4 Director Jim Hamilton (AAA4RD) was watching the weather on TV and based on the developing storm, called Tennessee SD Chris Bindrim (AAA4TN), to place TN Army MARS on alert. A short time after calling Bindrim, Hamilton received an email from David Wolfe, AAR4CY, (Chief of Communication for the TN Emergency Management Agency (TEMA), State RACES Officer, and an Army MARS member) requesting TN Army MARS be placed on standby for possible support to TEMA. In addition to calling Bindrim, Hamilton also called Kentucky SD Barry Jackson (AAA4KY) who was already alerting Kentucky Army MARS members to stand-by for possible emergency support to officials in Kentucky. What I just told you Jim Moore, Great Falls, MT, AAM8AMT is that before the Tornados struck, the preparatory alerts were sent to Region 4 SDs and members to “Prepare and Stand by to assist.”

This event illustrates the importance of detailed preparation and training which has taken place during realistic disaster response exercises over the past several years. In the case of TN, the story goes back a year and a half. Steve Waterman (AAA9AC) began working with TEMA’s David Wolfe, preparing for just such a deployment. At the time, Army MARS was just beginning to adopt the Winlink 2000 radio e-mail network system, and with the assistance of the then TN State Director, Paul Drothler, AAV4DJ, Army MARS had just signed a Memorandum of Understanding with TEMA. This MOU just served to strengthen an already strong relationship between TEMA and Army MARS.

Next, Wolfe led TEMA staffers who were already hams to becoming MARS members and to become qualified MARS WinLink 2000 operators. The rest of Wolfe’s team soon obtained their amateur radio and Army MARS licenses.

The next step was joint training for TEMA staff and TN Army MARS members. Some was classroom training followed up with extensive field training. The culmination of the field training was TNCAT07, a massive exercise, which included the Central United States Earthquake Consortium (CUSEC, an 8 state alert consortium along the New Madras fault line). This exercise also included the participation by ARRL Amateur Emergency Radio Service (ARES), CAP and other EMCOM services, which clearly demonstrated interoperability between TEMA, TN Army MARS, the amateur radio community, and other municipal communications services. You have just heard that Army MARS was integrating and training with virtually all of the EMCOM services in TN. That was what this CAM calls leaning forward and TCAMO.
As the situation developed Tuesday, the dispersed pattern of the multiple twisters and their swift movement meant local communications systems were able to cope. Painful as the casualty and damage figures were, from the commo viewpoint this was not the wide-area wipeout associated with a force 5 hurricane. Army MARS resources weren’t needed until Friday.
Steve Waterman, AAA9AC, received a phone call from TEMA on Thursday night, 7 Feb 08, summoning him to the Tennessee Emergency Operations Center in Nashville, and MARS station AAN4ETN, at 6:30 AM Friday morning
TEMA’s Command bus was summoned to an airport in Macon County Thursday night, approximately 140 miles east of Nashville, where President Bush was flying to make his announcement of declaring TN a disaster area, and offering federal support. Wolfe, headed the TEMA on-scene logistics operation, and provided us this report, and I quote: “The facts are: although there was no commercial power at the deployment site, TEMA’s communications infrastructure was fully operational. Both the VHF high band and 800 MHz repeater systems had good coverage for voice command and control. Our shortage was internet connectivity, and our unmet needs were e-mail and the ability to send pictures. MARS WinLink provided exactly what was not available by any other means. We also utilized it to reduce the ‘chatter’ on our C2 nets by sending short event notices direct to TEMA operations.”
AAA9AC’s After Action Report from Nashville listed 70 messages originated during the state operation. They ranged from casualty figure updates and signal reports to staff rosters and photos.
I’m indebted to Steve Waterman for pointing out that operationally speaking, this was not just a Tennessee communications job. Close-in HF propagation was less than optimal, so much of the traffic was directed to an Army MARS Radio Messaging Station in Montana, AAB8MT, operated by Jim Moore, AAM8AMT. That was real-world demonstration of the WinLink’s adaptability to challenging circumstances, including Mother Nature’s fickle propagation.
To make a long story short, we now have a “Real-World” demonstration of seamless collaboration between Army MARS and one of our supported agencies under emergency conditions. This was the first real world deployment since the Katrina/Rita disasters two years ago. Successfully meeting the challenge involved deployment readiness on the part of our members, and it required total WinLink 2000 mobility. First of all came the building of relationships with existing and potential customers, and then came meticulous training of state and federal staffers, and frequent exercising at home and in the field. With this pattern of established collaboration between our customers and MARS members, we enter the new era of Army MARS Emergency communications support.
Stuart S. Carter, Chief Army MARS

[kc7gnm]

And this is exactly where Winlink belongs. It does not belong on the shared spectrum of amateur radio. MARS has the ability to assign full channels to winlink and it performs well there. All it does in the amateur spectrum is create interference.

[n0uyx]

I haven't encountered the H. I. Where is caused? What freq. or band? Just curious.

TNX DE NØUYX
Randall

[kd4e]

Congratulations to the MARS folk in TN and AMEN! to Winlink finding its home on MARS and other dedicated spectrum versus endless conflict on shared Amateur Radio spectrum.

For non-channelized non-dedicated Ham support of post-disaster communications versatility is key. Rare and often not-well-positioned Winlink stations will never be the answer to unpredictable locations and events - generic and highly redundant SSB and popular digital modes will serve best on HF, analog-FM on VHF/UHF for a good while (perhaps eventually digital-voice on VHF/UHF once it is vastly more common).

Again, congrats to the MARS folks - many years of practice paid off!

73, doc KD4E

[kf4vgx]

It's great to hear amateurs working and thinking together.


Nice story !

[k2gsp]

Keep Winlink off HF and all is great.

[W0GDS]

Winlink I use is not in the PHONE bands and stays mostly in the CW/RTTY or DATA portion of the bands so it is not causing interference to other PHONE ops as I know it to be. Maybe you're confusing Winlink with some of the ops who are experimenting or using PSK31 between themselves on the other portions of the band and those ops have nothing to do with Winlink. I'll bet that is what you're referring to w/o even knowing it.
Have a really good day and strive to learn, learn to support, and support to save lives!

[n9dsj]

?

Hard for anyone to confuse Pactor modes with PSK31.

"Winlink I use is not in the PHONE bands and stays mostly in the CW/RTTY or DATA portion of the bands so it is not causing interference to other PHONE ops as I know it to be."

It "stays mostly" ?

So it only interferes with CW/RTTY/Data modes?


Sorry, confused by your post.


73,

Bill N9DSJ



Winlink I use is not in the PHONE bands and stays mostly in the CW/RTTY or DATA portion of the bands so it is not causing interference to other PHONE ops as I know it to be. Maybe you're confusing Winlink with some of the ops who are experimenting or using PSK31 between themselves on the other portions of the band and those ops have nothing to do with Winlink. I'll bet that is what you're referring to w/o even knowing it.
Have a really good day and strive to learn, learn to support, and support to save lives!

[KG4RUL]

And this is exactly where Winlink belongs. It does not belong on the shared spectrum of amateur radio. MARS has the ability to assign full channels to winlink and it performs well there. All it does in the amateur spectrum is create interference.

I am in 100% agreement. :D

[N8CPA]

And this is exactly where Winlink belongs. It does not belong on the shared spectrum of amateur radio. MARS has the ability to assign full channels to winlink and it performs well there. All it does in the amateur spectrum is create interference.



Even the SCS promotional literature says it's intended for assigned channel operation. Among the general population of HF modes, it's Lidtor.

[k6jpd]

i live (part time) in the area affected by the storms. the trained MARS amateurs performed well and did great service. THANK YOU.
this demonstrates the value of winlink when used on dedicated, non-shared, non-amateur frequencies.
IMO, winlink does not belong in the shared amateur spectrum, but it does "fit well" as a MARS tool.

[kc7gnm]

Winlink I use is not in the PHONE bands and stays mostly in the CW/RTTY or DATA portion of the bands so it is not causing interference to other PHONE ops as I know it to be. Maybe you're confusing Winlink with some of the ops who are experimenting or using PSK31 between themselves on the other portions of the band and those ops have nothing to do with Winlink. I'll bet that is what you're referring to w/o even knowing it.
Have a really good day and strive to learn, learn to support, and support to save lives!

The winlink I know of causes much interference in the CW/RTTY bands. On any given day I get interfered with constantly on 14.105 LSB packet. Winlink ops just do not care about who was on the freq first. They just care about getting their free email. The MARS folks are doing it right using dedicated freqs that are not shared. That is where winlink belongs, not on the amateur bands.

[w6em]

....
IMO, winlink does not belong in the shared amateur spectrum, but it does "fit well" as a MARS tool.

It only "fits well" when the individual members purchase their own SCS modems at $1300 apiece. I surely don't want my tax dollars being spent (by the DoD) to purchase every MARS member one of those expensive, sole-source modems.

I'm sure that by now, Winlink-guru Steve Waterman must have come up with that alternative mode to Pactor he talks about that can handle Winlink traffic without an expensive modem. At the Huntsville Hamfest in August 2006 he said it would be coming very soon..... Where is it, Steve?

[w7act]

It only "fits well" when the individual members purchase their own SCS modems at $1300 apiece. I surely don't want my tax dollars being spent (by the DoD) to purchase every MARS member one of those expensive, sole-source modems.

I'm sure that by now, Winlink-guru Steve Waterman must have come up with that alternative mode to Pactor he talks about that can handle Winlink traffic without an expensive modem. At the Huntsville Hamfest in August 2006 he said it would be coming very soon..... Where is it, Steve?

As an Army MARS Operator to my knowledge DoD doesn't buy or furnish MARS members any equipment or at least I haven't seen of this DoD equipment you speak of. The equiment I use for Winlink is a Kamtronics KAM All Mode TNC that is about 60 years old that I purchased from a SAilor stationed in Guam and the program used is Airmail.

To the best of my knowledge each and every MARS OP no matter which service they are affilliated with operate on their priviately owned equipment purchased at their own expense.

[kc7gnm]

It only "fits well" when the individual members purchase their own SCS modems at $1300 apiece. I surely don't want my tax dollars being spent (by the DoD) to purchase every MARS member one of those expensive, sole-source modems.

I'm sure that by now, Winlink-guru Steve Waterman must have come up with that alternative mode to Pactor he talks about that can handle Winlink traffic without an expensive modem. At the Huntsville Hamfest in August 2006 he said it would be coming very soon..... Where is it, Steve?

Lee,

Most MARS members use their own equipment. If they don't have it then they can get it from the MARS program if they have it. They don't go out and purchase this stuff for every operator.

[w6em]

As an Army MARS Operator to my knowledge DoD doesn't buy or furnish MARS members any equipment or at least I haven't seen of this DoD equipment you speak of.

MARS has purchased and issued surplus equipment in the past. It depends on "who you are." Rank has/had its privileges. Perfectly good surplus, high-end receivers and transceivers were issued to members. The last I heard were some RF-350s and associated amplifiers and tuners. To the extent WinLink throughput is 'pushed' by Waterman, nothing BUT Pactor III will do (hence the comment about the SCS Modems)

The equiment I use for Winlink is a Kamtronics KAM All Mode TNC that is about 60 years old that I purchased from a SAilor stationed in Guam and the program used is Airmail.

OK. WinLink works under Pactor I, but very slowly, according to Waterman and his cheerleaders. "To achieve fast, efficient throughput, you have to use Pactor III." And, the only way you can use P III is via an SCS modem, since the author will not allow anyone but his company to manufacture the modems.

To the best of my knowledge each and every MARS OP no matter which service they are affilliated with operate on their priviately owned equipment purchased at their own expense.

As noted above, it was a past practice to issue equipment to members. Perhaps that's changed. Good, if it has.

73.

[K0RGR]

MARS has purchased and issued surplus equipment in the past. It depends on "who you are." Rank has/had its privileges. Perfectly good surplus, high-end receivers and transceivers were issued to members. The last I heard were some RF-350s and associated amplifiers and tuners. To the extent WinLink throughput is 'pushed' by Waterman, nothing BUT Pactor III will do (hence the comment about the SCS Modems)

As noted above, it was a past practice to issue equipment to members. Perhaps that's changed. Good, if it has.

73.

My dad was an active AF MARS member ages ago. The way it worked then was that MARS members earned 'points' for their activity - each net check-in, each time they served as net control, and I think they got credit for handling messages. This was during the Vietnam era, and MARS was very busy with traffic. My father dedicated many hours a week to MARS, managing SSB phonepatch nets and lots more when MARS was busy.

His reward was that he could redeem his 'points' at the MARS warehouse at McClellan Field for surplus gear, parts, etc.. A couple times a year, Dad would take his huge pot of points, borrow a pickup truck, and go to Sacramento.

Almost all of the gear was WWII or Korean War vintage. Some of it did end up on the air after extensive modifications. He had a number of ARC-5's, and several ART-13's. Mostly, he got parts, which became radio gear that he then put back on the MARS nets. He did get a couple nice 4-1000's, which spent many hours doing phonepatches for the boys in 'Nam. There were rumors of KWM-2's but none were ever sighted - and my father always had his eyes and ears out for them! We eventually moved to Sacramento, close to the warehouse, in fact, and we visited frequently!

As far as the Air Force MARS was concerned though, the program ended in the mid-60's.

[w6em]

My dad was an active AF MARS member ages ago. The way it worked then was that MARS members earned 'points' for their activity - each net check-in, each time they served as net control, and I think they got credit for handling messages. This was during the Vietnam era, and MARS was very busy with traffic. My father dedicated many hours a week to MARS, managing SSB phonepatch nets and lots more when MARS was busy.

His reward was that he could redeem his 'points' at the MARS warehouse at McClellan Field for surplus gear, parts, etc.. A couple times a year, Dad would take his huge pot of points, borrow a pickup truck, and go to Sacramento.

Almost all of the gear was WWII or Korean War vintage. Some of it did end up on the air after extensive modifications. He had a number of ARC-5's, and several ART-13's. Mostly, he got parts, which became radio gear that he then put back on the MARS nets. He did get a couple nice 4-1000's, which spent many hours doing phonepatches for the boys in 'Nam. There were rumors of KWM-2's but none were ever sighted - and my father always had his eyes and ears out for them! We eventually moved to Sacramento, close to the warehouse, in fact, and we visited frequently!

As far as the Air Force MARS was concerned though, the program ended in the mid-60's.

Yes, that was a fair program. As a teenager, I had earned a few "points" in AF MARS and went myself to McClellan's warehouse. Spare tubes and parts were the best part. Some old gear, including teletype machines. Actually, pre-Vietnam war.

There were a lot of great people in AF MARS at that time and I'm sure your dad was one of them. The hallmark was Barry Goldwater, K7UGA. I think his call was AFA7UGA. In those days, it made perfect sense, at least in AF MARS. I was AFB6VKJ (WA6VKJ). None of the AlphaAlphaTango weird number and suffix business then. You knew who you were talking to.

I spent about 20 years in Army MARS. Some great people there too. Lets just say, what equipment that was issued tended to go to the chum buds of the MARS directors. And, there were some reasonably late model pieces being issued. Although, they were supposed to remain the property of DoD, unlike the old AF MARS days. Most of my time was in the Central CAL region (later split between NorCAL and SoCAL.

I guess I should "name names" at some point, so here goes. Jim Hamilton, the Southeastern Army MARS Director, was an Assistant State Director in Florida during the two years I belonged after we relocated to FL. He did a lot of great work helping active and reserve Army units with communications training and even loaned some of his personal equipment. Jim was doing things to support the people in uniform, unlike the present-day mission of MARS that has gotten away from that and become a supplemental communications conduit for government agencies (under the guise of "emergency" assistance).

Its great to see that Jim has risen above the Florida Director. That's a well deserved achievement to a very dedicated MARS member.

Speaking of dedication, someone chimed in to one of the recent threads and did say that AF MARS is still doing phone patches via a few nets for AF service personnel that are away from satlinks, cell phones and such.

Thanks for the work your father did to support the men and women who were deployed overseas. He deserved all of those "points" he earned and more.

73.

[KC0OFZ]

Winlink I use is not in the PHONE bands and stays mostly in the CW/RTTY or DATA portion of the bands so it is not causing interference to other PHONE ops as I know it to be. Maybe you're confusing Winlink with some of the ops who are experimenting or using PSK31 between themselves on the other portions of the band and those ops have nothing to do with Winlink. I'll bet that is what you're referring to w/o even knowing it.
Have a really good day and strive to learn, learn to support, and support to save lives!


Mostly? Is that anything like "mostly" pregnant? Do you go into the phone portions? Yes or No..one word.
From your post I will conclude that CW/RTTY or "other" data modes do not count in your mind and can just "put up" with the interference. Is this the case?

[KG4JYD]

Feb 5th is a night I'll NEVER forget...for a variety of reasons.


I was one of the top people in the Ron Paul for Tennessee campaign. We were all in our office that night watching the voting returns come in. Our office was a woodframe house on Music Row in downtown Nashville.

Many of the people that were there (70+ or so) were drunk.

As the storm approached some left to try to make it home (bad idea), and the rest of us piled in the basement. Looking at the radar we could CLEARLY see a hook echo/bow echo on the radar so it was blatantly obvious a tornado was headed right for us.

Another ham and I were listening to the reports that the funnel was indeed on the ground in the next county over so we fully expected it to hit us. Amazingly enough the cyclone lifted off the ground just as it approached downtown and didn't reappear until it got to the NE side of downtown missing hundreds of thousands of people including an arena full of hockey game spectators.

Then a few hours later the main line of storms came through with another group of twisters that again avoided downtown but hit some outlying areas. A natural gas pumping station was destroyed sending flames 500ft into the air. They are not sure if the tornado or lightning started that.

After that passed everyone was drunk and this hot blonde chick was trying to "get with" me. Unfortunately she was married with 2 kids so I politely declined. I did however sleep at the HQ that night on the couch.

When I woke up I still didn't know who had won TN as far as the elections went but I did make sure to find out later on.

It was one of those days I'll never forget. I'd put more detail into this post but I'm crunched for time.

[KG4RUL]

Feb 5th is a night I'll NEVER forget...for a variety of reasons.


I was one of the top people in the Ron Paul for Tennessee campaign. We were all in our office that night watching the voting returns come in. Our office was a woodframe house on Music Row in downtown Nashville.

Many of the people that were there (70+ or so) were drunk.

As the storm approached some left to try to make it home (bad idea), and the rest of us piled in the basement. Looking at the radar we could CLEARLY see a hook echo/bow echo on the radar so it was blatantly obvious a tornado was headed right for us.

Another ham and I were listening to the reports that the funnel was indeed on the ground in the next county over so we fully expected it to hit us. Amazingly enough the cyclone lifted off the ground just as it approached downtown and didn't reappear until it got to the NE side of downtown missing hundreds of thousands of people including an arena full of hockey game spectators.

Then a few hours later the main line of storms came through with another group of twisters that again avoided downtown but hit some outlying areas. A natural gas pumping station was destroyed sending flames 500ft into the air. They are not sure if the tornado or lightning started that.

After that passed everyone was drunk and this hot blonde chick was trying to "get with" me. Unfortunately she was married with 2 kids so I politely declined. I did however sleep at the HQ that night on the couch.

When I woke up I still didn't know who had won TN as far as the elections went but I did make sure to find out later on.

It was one of those days I'll never forget. I'd put more detail into this post but I'm crunched for time.

And just what the heck does this have to do with MARS and Winlink? :confused::rolleyes:

[kc7gnm]

I guess I should "name names" at some point, so here goes. Jim Hamilton, the Southeastern Army MARS Director, was an Assistant State Director in Florida during the two years I belonged after we relocated to FL. He did a lot of great work helping active and reserve Army units with communications training and even loaned some of his personal equipment. Jim was doing things to support the people in uniform, unlike the present-day mission of MARS that has gotten away from that and become a supplemental communications conduit for government agencies (under the guise of "emergency" assistance).

Lee I can tell you the reason why MARS has shifted focus. It is because of the internet and cell phones. I was a MARS operator in 1999 and had my equipment over in Albania during the Kosovo campaign. I tried everything to get folks to send MARSGRAMS but because we had internet access and free phones to use most didn't bother with the slow nature of sending a MARSGram. Today it is even worse. My last deployment in the Army before I retired was in Qatar and we had internet wired into every room over there. I actually used it to chat with my wife using VOIP and instant messaging. With those forms of communications who needs MARS outdated comms anymore. That is the reason why MARS has shifted focus to EMCOMM because they needed a new mission to stay alive. Without EMCOMM and DHS they would be defunct now. It was all about saving some folks jobs here at Ft. Huachuca.

You are right though. They did some great things back in the 70's-80's but the 90's spelled the end for MARS.

[na4it]

You know, I am appalled at the negativity in this thread. Many of the TEMA folks have not only taken the time to get their ham radio license, but also their MARS license. And it's not a "hand out" license either. They have to do all the basic training requirements that everyone else has had to do. We are working together. There is no "I'm with ARES", "I'm with RACES", "I'm better than you". It's a group of communicators working together. This was a first time event that worked well, because steps had been taken to have good trained operators at the ready.

TEMA, thanks, you ARE leading by example!

And yes I know someone is ready with the slap "well MARS isn't relevant anymore, they quit sending phone patches". Well, this is 2008. Things have changed. The NCS stations on MARS that busted your chops over the are are DEAD. The system has changed. We train, train, train. We practice daily what we do. We work together for a common goal, and that is to provide good long-haul communications when needed. We do most of that for federal or other government agencies. But that mission is expanding.

For the Winlink nay sayers, the Winlink system on MARS is different that the one on amateur radio. Yes, we use the internet, but we do not rely on it. Yes, some folks have SCS modems, but a lot of us do not. Some have Kantronics, some have AEA, some have Timewave. Some are using TNC-Xs and sound card on packet. If you don't know the MARS Winlink system, don't slam it.

And, MARS does not furnish or buy our equipment. To my knowledge, there is no radio equipment available. And they are not handing out SCS modems. We BUY, BEG, BORROW, LOAN, AND TRADE for what we have. For those who say "well, if MARS can't give me a radio, I'm not interested", good, you don't need to be in MARS with that attitude.

And yes, Winlink will never work as an EMCOMM mode on amateur radio frequencies on HF, but it is not because of Winlink. It is because of two types of amateur radio operators, (1) those that do not realize they keyed up on someone because the propagation doesn't allow them to hear the other station, and (2) those who are inconsiderate and would not and do not clear the frequency when emergency traffic needs to be sent. The later happened so much during the Katrina response that the FCC should have permanently yanked hundreds of licenses.

I would encourage amateur EMCOMM groups to take a very strong look at Winlink VHF packet. It shows some promise, and allows you to use one station not only to send traffic to a Winlink RMS Packet server, but also peer to peer on standard packet. Then, get hooked up with MARS operators for the long haul stuff.

And just so you know, MARS does a lot more than Winlink. We use a myriad of sound card modes and voice and mixed mode nets to "get the job done".

Amateur radio needs to get out of their diapers, off the baby bottles, and grow up. It's time the bickering stops, and we use common sense. Is all that amateur radio is about is EMCOMM? Of course not. But, even if someone does not want to participate by training and preparing for EMCOMM, they need to realize that there are stations out there that do, and are trying to help their fellow man. By the same token on the other side of the coin, EMCOMM DOES NOT need to be encroaching on amateurs trying to enjoy the hobby by trying to take over frequencies to do drills and exercises. Turn the VFO, there are others out there.

There, flame shield on...

de NA4IT

[KD6NIG]

You know, I am appalled at the negativity in this thread. Many of the TEMA folks have not only taken the time to get their ham radio license, but also their MARS license. And it's not a "hand out" license either. They have to do all the basic training requirements that everyone else has had to do. We are working together. There is no "I'm with ARES", "I'm with RACES", "I'm better than you". It's a group of communicators working together. This was a first time event that worked well, because steps had been taken to have good trained operators at the ready.

TEMA, thanks, you ARE leading by example!

And yes I know someone is ready with the slap "well MARS isn't relevant anymore, they quit sending phone patches". Well, this is 2008. Things have changed. The NCS stations on MARS that busted your chops over the are are DEAD. The system has changed. We train, train, train. We practice daily what we do. We work together for a common goal, and that is to provide good long-haul communications when needed. We do most of that for federal or other government agencies. But that mission is expanding.

For the Winlink nay sayers, the Winlink system on MARS is different that the one on amateur radio. Yes, we use the internet, but we do not rely on it. Yes, some folks have SCS modems, but a lot of us do not. Some have Kantronics, some have AEA, some have Timewave. Some are using TNC-Xs and sound card on packet. If you don't know the MARS Winlink system, don't slam it.

And, MARS does not furnish or buy our equipment. To my knowledge, there is no radio equipment available. And they are not handing out SCS modems. We BUY, BEG, BORROW, LOAN, AND TRADE for what we have. For those who say "well, if MARS can't give me a radio, I'm not interested", good, you don't need to be in MARS with that attitude.

And yes, Winlink will never work as an EMCOMM mode on amateur radio frequencies on HF, but it is not because of Winlink. It is because of two types of amateur radio operators, (1) those that do not realize they keyed up on someone because the propagation doesn't allow them to hear the other station, and (2) those who are inconsiderate and would not and do not clear the frequency when emergency traffic needs to be sent. The later happened so much during the Katrina response that the FCC should have permanently yanked hundreds of licenses.

I would encourage amateur EMCOMM groups to take a very strong look at Winlink VHF packet. It shows some promise, and allows you to use one station not only to send traffic to a Winlink RMS Packet server, but also peer to peer on standard packet. Then, get hooked up with MARS operators for the long haul stuff.

And just so you know, MARS does a lot more than Winlink. We use a myriad of sound card modes and voice and mixed mode nets to "get the job done".

Amateur radio needs to get out of their diapers, off the baby bottles, and grow up. It's time the bickering stops, and we use common sense. Is all that amateur radio is about is EMCOMM? Of course not. But, even if someone does not want to participate by training and preparing for EMCOMM, they need to realize that there are stations out there that do, and are trying to help their fellow man. By the same token on the other side of the coin, EMCOMM DOES NOT need to be encroaching on amateurs trying to enjoy the hobby by trying to take over frequencies to do drills and exercises. Turn the VFO, there are others out there.

There, flame shield on...

de NA4IT

The only problem is, Winlink on HF is allegedly being used for normal email not EMCOMM.

I'm sure if they were using it in emergency situations only people wouldn't mind yielding.

I hope that flame suit is ready, because I expect you'll be hearing a lot from people about that fact shortly....

[ab2m]

Seems to me that you could take most of the objections raised in this thread about Winlink and:

1. Replace "Winlink" with "Contester" and make a similar argument;

2. Turn the dial back, replace "Winlink" with "Repeater" and do the same.


Packet HF BBS's exist on set frequencies and no one complains. I don't see the same outcries when an HF NCS comes up on the net's usual frequency and starts the net, irregardless of whatever traffic he's stepping on. Why loose the venom on Winlink?

As far as amateurs using Winlink for "personal" mail as opposed to "emergency communications", well, isn't that akin to ragchewing, or most SSTV work, or, for that matter, nearly every non-emergency Amateur communication? As a practical matter; one must test their capabilities and equipment, especially if they are involved in emergency communications - non-distress communication is the only way to do so.

Further, any Amateur who in actuality begins ANY communication - PACTOR or whatever - knowing that they are interfering with existing communications is liable in fact under Part 97 - so it seems silly to condemn users of a given mode instead of seeking the obvious remedy. The Airmail client program urges Winlink users to listen BEFORE connecting to the system; Winlink appears to be doing what it can to address the issue.

Lastly, as we are all aware, Amateur frequencies are not assigned to anyone, be they Winlink or not. We as amateurs should be finding ways to work together and innovate, not act divisively and stifle innovation.

[w6em]

Lee I can tell you the reason why MARS has shifted focus. It is because of the internet and cell phones. I was a MARS operator in 1999 and had my equipment over in Albania during the Kosovo campaign. I tried everything to get folks to send MARSGRAMS but because we had internet access and free phones to use most didn't bother with the slow nature of sending a MARSGram. Today it is even worse. My last deployment in the Army before I retired was in Qatar and we had internet wired into every room over there. I actually used it to chat with my wife using VOIP and instant messaging. With those forms of communications who needs MARS outdated comms anymore. That is the reason why MARS has shifted focus to EMCOMM because they needed a new mission to stay alive. Without EMCOMM and DHS they would be defunct now. It was all about saving some folks jobs here at Ft. Huachuca.

You are right though. They did some great things back in the 70's-80's but the 90's spelled the end for MARS.

Greg: You've got the correct perspective. The last two posters are trying to defend a new service, albeit the "radio free government" (RFG) service.

If there's anything I dislike, its a diminishment of a great history. MARS was the Military Affiliate Radio System. It existed to support those in the service and their families.

Since the paid employees of the Akima Corporation would lose their jobs (as paid MARS officials) it was, as you note, incumbent upon them to morph MARS into something that would keep their jobs afloat.

So the ads went out "any agency needing a back-up communications service, just call on us...."

The only thing that exists today that is still within the old MARS realm are a few phone patch nets, mostly on AF MARS as I hear.

The rest of this new RFG service needs to call itself (and be called) something else. Some have suggested TSARS (Transportation Security Administration Radio System).

And, along with its new mission, MARS needs to change its affiliation to something besides the military. Perhaps DHS. Why? Because the memories of the great works done on behalf of military personnel and their families is getting buried in superfluous activities. Things that have nothing at all to do with our military or their families. Keeping track of baggage counts from airport to airport if the phone lines go down isn't memorable.

Let MARS come to a respectful end, if its primary mission isn't any longer affiliated with supporting the men and women in uniform serving the United States of America. And, yes, there was a recent exercise in CA that earned a MARS operator/ reserve Army officer a distinguished service medal for organizing adjunct communications with an Army unit involving MARS.

Now, that's the only thing I've heard of in the last 2 years besides the phone patch nets that fits the original nature and purpose.

Actually, what this thread describes sounds like the old CB organization REACT. To a tee. 10-4?


73.

[kc7gnm]

You know, I am appalled at the negativity in this thread. Many of the TEMA folks have not only taken the time to get their ham radio license, but also their MARS license. And it's not a "hand out" license either. They have to do all the basic training requirements that everyone else has had to do. We are working together. There is no "I'm with ARES", "I'm with RACES", "I'm better than you". It's a group of communicators working together. This was a first time event that worked well, because steps had been taken to have good trained operators at the ready.

TEMA, thanks, you ARE leading by example!

And yes I know someone is ready with the slap "well MARS isn't relevant anymore, they quit sending phone patches". Well, this is 2008. Things have changed. The NCS stations on MARS that busted your chops over the are are DEAD. The system has changed. We train, train, train. We practice daily what we do. We work together for a common goal, and that is to provide good long-haul communications when needed. We do most of that for federal or other government agencies. But that mission is expanding.

For the Winlink nay sayers, the Winlink system on MARS is different that the one on amateur radio. Yes, we use the internet, but we do not rely on it. Yes, some folks have SCS modems, but a lot of us do not. Some have Kantronics, some have AEA, some have Timewave. Some are using TNC-Xs and sound card on packet. If you don't know the MARS Winlink system, don't slam it.

And, MARS does not furnish or buy our equipment. To my knowledge, there is no radio equipment available. And they are not handing out SCS modems. We BUY, BEG, BORROW, LOAN, AND TRADE for what we have. For those who say "well, if MARS can't give me a radio, I'm not interested", good, you don't need to be in MARS with that attitude.

And yes, Winlink will never work as an EMCOMM mode on amateur radio frequencies on HF, but it is not because of Winlink. It is because of two types of amateur radio operators, (1) those that do not realize they keyed up on someone because the propagation doesn't allow them to hear the other station, and (2) those who are inconsiderate and would not and do not clear the frequency when emergency traffic needs to be sent. The later happened so much during the Katrina response that the FCC should have permanently yanked hundreds of licenses.

I would encourage amateur EMCOMM groups to take a very strong look at Winlink VHF packet. It shows some promise, and allows you to use one station not only to send traffic to a Winlink RMS Packet server, but also peer to peer on standard packet. Then, get hooked up with MARS operators for the long haul stuff.

And just so you know, MARS does a lot more than Winlink. We use a myriad of sound card modes and voice and mixed mode nets to "get the job done".

Amateur radio needs to get out of their diapers, off the baby bottles, and grow up. It's time the bickering stops, and we use common sense. Is all that amateur radio is about is EMCOMM? Of course not. But, even if someone does not want to participate by training and preparing for EMCOMM, they need to realize that there are stations out there that do, and are trying to help their fellow man. By the same token on the other side of the coin, EMCOMM DOES NOT need to be encroaching on amateurs trying to enjoy the hobby by trying to take over frequencies to do drills and exercises. Turn the VFO, there are others out there.

There, flame shield on...

de NA4IT

Well you asked for it. I said that winlink belongs on MARS not Amateur radio. I said MARS is doing the right thing having winlink on their network. I was a MARS operator back in 1999 and what I saw from that broke system made me sick and I dropped out. I was deployed to Albania during Kosovo and had my HF gear with me. The only operation I could do was MARS. My Call at the time was AEM5GNM. I tried sending marsgrams to the Heidelberg gateway in Germany but had to call the morons on the phone to get them to turn the radio on and listen. Now why would I send traffic over the radio if I had them on the phone. What was the point. The real point is I had a phone I could call them with. I also had internet at the time too. Soldiers today have all types of ways of communicating back home. MARS is no longer needed to support the soldier anymore. By MARS switching to EMCOMM and Homeland Security they are finding a new way to stay alive. Winlink works on MARS because they can dedicate a full 3khz channel to its operation. Amateur Radio is shared spectrum and cannot do that.

NA4IT if you do not see that then you are a blind fool that knows nothing about MARS. I know because I was there and had to deal with it myself. MARS has no mission with the soldiers anymore and I dare someone to say they do because they are a liar. MARS is now in the business of EMCOMM/Homeland Security.

What they did in Tennessee was great. Just keep the winlink junk off the amateur radio bands. SCS promotes its modems for commercial use, not amateur use. PIII was designed for commercial channels and it say so plainly on their website. Amateurs are not using it for EMCOMM, they are using it for personal email to avoid paying the sailmail fees. Winlink users don't care who is on the freq first and they will keep pounding out their ARQ signal until they eliminate whoever was on the freq first. I am tired of the idiots that think winlink is the best thing since sliced bread because it is not. It is destroying ham radio and turning it into a common carrier to avoid commercial email services. That is against part 97 but the winlinkers feel they are not breaking any rules. Now if you continue to believe this garbage about winlink then you are lost. Keep believing Steve Waterman's crap and we will see how far you go.

[kc7gnm]

Greg: You've got the correct perspective. The last two posters are trying to defend a new service, albeit the "radio free government" (RFG) service.

If there's anything I dislike, its a diminishment of a great history. MARS was the Military Affiliate Radio System. It existed to support those in the service and their families.

Since the paid employees of the Akima Corporation would lose their jobs (as paid MARS officials) it was, as you note, incumbent upon them to morph MARS into something that would keep their jobs afloat.

So the ads went out "any agency needing a back-up communications service, just call on us...."

The only thing that exists today that is still within the old MARS realm are a few phone patch nets, mostly on AF MARS as I hear.

The rest of this new RFG service needs to call itself (and be called) something else. Some have suggested TSARS (Transportation Security Administration Radio System).

And, along with its new mission, MARS needs to change its affiliation to something besides the military. Perhaps DHS. Why? Because the memories of the great works done on behalf of military personnel and their families is getting buried in superfluous activities. Things that have nothing at all to do with our military or their families. Keeping track of baggage counts from airport to airport if the phone lines go down isn't memorable.

Let MARS come to a respectful end, if its primary mission isn't any longer affiliated with supporting the men and women in uniform serving the United States of America. And, yes, there was a recent exercise in CA that earned a MARS operator/ reserve Army officer a distinguished service medal for organizing adjunct communications with an Army unit involving MARS.

Now, that's the only thing I've heard of in the last 2 years besides the phone patch nets that fits the original nature and purpose.

Actually, what this thread describes sounds like the old CB organization REACT. To a tee. 10-4?


73.

Lee,

You are 100% correct. MARS has lost it's focus on the Military and should change affiliations. I think you are right about them going to the DHS. I think that is the direction they should be heading. Some of these folks are clinging onto the old MARS ways. I have seen it first hand what MARS has turned into and I want no part in it anymore. That is why I dropped my MARS affiliation back in 2000 after the fiasco I had with them. I work on Ft. Huachuca where the Chief of Army MARS sits. Did you know that she is not an amateur radio operator? She has the chief of Army MARS callsign but does not have an amateur radio license. This goes to show that they don't care who they put in charge anymore. At least the last Chief had an amateur radio license.

[kc7gnm]

Seems to me that you could take most of the objections raised in this thread about Winlink and:

1. Replace "Winlink" with "Contester" and make a similar argument;

2. Turn the dial back, replace "Winlink" with "Repeater" and do the same.


Packet HF BBS's exist on set frequencies and no one complains. I don't see the same outcries when an HF NCS comes up on the net's usual frequency and starts the net, irregardless of whatever traffic he's stepping on. Why loose the venom on Winlink?

As far as amateurs using Winlink for "personal" mail as opposed to "emergency communications", well, isn't that akin to ragchewing, or most SSTV work, or, for that matter, nearly every non-emergency Amateur communication? As a practical matter; one must test their capabilities and equipment, especially if they are involved in emergency communications - non-distress communication is the only way to do so.

Further, any Amateur who in actuality begins ANY communication - PACTOR or whatever - knowing that they are interfering with existing communications is liable in fact under Part 97 - so it seems silly to condemn users of a given mode instead of seeking the obvious remedy. The Airmail client program urges Winlink users to listen BEFORE connecting to the system; Winlink appears to be doing what it can to address the issue.

Lastly, as we are all aware, Amateur frequencies are not assigned to anyone, be they Winlink or not. We as amateurs should be finding ways to work together and innovate, not act divisively and stifle innovation.

First packet is a shared frequency mode. Winlink is not. You can cram 20-30 stations on a single 200hz packet freq and have no problems. You can only have 2 winlink stations on 2.4khz of spectrum only. I do not see the connection between the two. Packet stays at 200hz. Winlink goes from 200hz up to 2.4khz with no warning and no checking of who is to the right and left of the signal.

The Airmail program does urge users to listen but do you really think the sailboaters are really listening? Also what about the PMBO auto stations? Steve Waterman has flat out said he will not turn busy detection on. His words are "Too bad, so sad". That kind of attitude is what makes winlink the scourge of the ham radio bands. Innovation is not getting your signal wider. Innovation is finding more ways to work with less. Maybe you should really go and see how much spectrum we really have assigned to amateur radio and you will see that we just don't have that much to let winlink loose all over the spectrum. Apparently you have never been interfered with by winlink stations that come on freq and start blasting away. Maybe you are one of those winlids that start transmitting and don't care who is on freq because you want your free email. Point is until Steve Waterman is ousted winlink will continue to be bad for amateur radio. He is the one causing all the problems. The winlink development team wanted to implement a new busy detection but Steve Waterman said no way he would use it. That is the reason why if you use winlink you should demand that he step down. I bet if you asked him on one of his reflectors you would get banned immediately. Anyone that tries to talk to Steve gets rude replys from him. He takes private emails that have been sent to others and nabs them off his winlink system, a system he says is private. I have the proof and have posted it here several times. You need to wake up and really look at your false god called waterman because he is dragging winlink down fast.

[w6em]

Lee,

... I work on Ft. Huachuca where the Chief of Army MARS sits. Did you know that she is not an amateur radio operator? She has the chief of Army MARS callsign but does not have an amateur radio license. This goes to show that they don't care who they put in charge anymore. At least the last Chief had an amateur radio license.

Greg: Wow, I didn't realize that she wasn't a ham. So, how can a non-ham, with no experience with amateur radio be expected to make reasonable decisions with respect to an amateur radio-staffed organization? I doubt even the ARRL knew that as I remember their publicizing her installation.

Just how far down the "pipe" do the paid Akima contract folks go? All the way to the state directors or to the regional directors? Or, are they just those in residence at Ft. Huachucha?

Of course, I guess even at some point, even in the old MARS program, civilian hams reported to non-ham military bosses. But, having someone as Chief of MARS (or whatever its eventually called) that isn't a ham is almost sacreligious.

[na4it]

Well, for you guys that know so much about MARS...seems you haven't been keeping up too well.

Chief Army MARS is..... A MAN !

His name is Stuart Carter.

de NA4IT

And by the way, I do realize we handle little traffic for the military, I'm not that dumb. I never said we did.

[w6em]

........And yes I know someone is ready with the slap "well MARS isn't relevant anymore, they quit sending phone patches".

MARS isn't. TSARS, DHSRS, or some other acronym is.


Well, this is 2008. Things have changed.

Yes, they have. And, its time the MARS name went away.


The NCS stations on MARS that busted your chops over the are are DEAD.

Really? I can think of one who's still breathing and still an official. They're still publishing military SOP. There was a joint letter in November issued about just how to identify, call other stations, formality vs. informality, etc.
"Thou shalt not call another station, except the net control station."

We work together for a common goal, and that is to provide good long-haul communications when needed. We do most of that for federal or other government agencies. But that mission is expanding.

There, flame shield on...

de NA4IT

Those last several statements sum it up perfectly. You are part of what is now advertised as a communications auxiliary for government agencies. And, your list of customers is expanding. OK. It isn't the military any longer, its other agencies. So, call it something besides the Military Affiliate Radio System. It isn't that anymore.......

And, while I'm at it, don't even HINT at disrespect for phone patch traffic. That was a service provided to help ease the burden of foreign combat deployments. That, along with message traffic, was the proud purpose and role of MARS. The real MARS, not the REACT wannabe of today.

73.

[w6em]

Well, for you guys that know so much about MARS...seems you haven't been keeping up too well.

Chief Army MARS is..... is Stuart Carter.

de NA4IT

Oh, gee, well maybe she was dismissed due to lack of a call sign.

So, Stuart Carter is it, eh? I guess he did sign that SOP I quoted, come to think of it.

I suppose he's a ham. At least there is a Stuart Carter in the database. However, if he's W4NHC, he's listed as residing at Indialantic, FL.

You might want to send him a MARSGRAM (via WinDink if its faster) and advise him that the FCC has rather strict requirements about addresses of licensees being kept current. I would assume he's been living near Fort Huachucha for quite some time now. Especially if his issued SOP was released in November.

Perhaps, though, Akima allows its employees to "telecommute." :D

[KV9U]

A previous poster has correctly identified why Winlink 2000 is the one mode that is least tolerated on the amateur radio bands. The hidden transmitter problem is always going to be with us. Even for stations operated by physical operators on both ends. But Winlink 2000 (not to be confused with Winlink which is an older discontinued ham radio only system that did not rely on the internet), does not have busy frequency detection turned on even though the modems may have some rudimentary detection.

When the FCC allowed automatic operation, it was with the understanding that technologies would be developed to operate in our shared ham band environment. Winlink 2000 developer, Rick, KN6KB, developed the SCAMP non-Pactor sound card mode and it had an excellent busy frequency detection scheme. I was one of the beta testers and can vouch for the effectiveness. The mode (as some of us predicted, based upon its RDFT modulation underpinnings) required a very good signal (well above zero dB S/N) to operate. They stopped further development and also would not release the code to the amateur community. All software was designed with self destruct timers so we could do no further experimentation. It has been a tragic loss to the digital amateur community because someone could have taken the code and developed weaker signal fall back modes to solve the problem. But of course it would have competed with Winlink 2000, which I suspect they did not want to happen.

The SCS Pactor and Pactor 2 modes typically can fit within a 500 Hz bandwidth and under U.S. rules, can operate any place in the RTTY/Data portions of the bands when under automatic control, providing one side has a human control operator. The wider Pactor 3 automatic mode must stay in the narrow automatic sub bands. Steve, K4CJX, has stated that he can not understand why any ham would operate in these sub bands if they were not using automatic operation. This helps you to understand this kind of mindset which seems to be pervasive within the Winlink 2000 group think. These are shared bands, not exclusive to any one group or mode and we have equal standing.

Dedicated channelized operation, exemplified by MARS, is the appropriate venue for systems such as Winlink 2000. This is especially true for Pactor 3, and similar technologies that will transmit on an occupied frequency.

Pactor 3 mode connects to other Pactor and Pactor 2 stations as a Pactor connect and if it detects P2 or P3 capability can then switch modes and widen to as much as 5 times more bandwidth (over 2000 Hz). Any stations already in that space will be interfered with.

[na4it]

"And, while I'm at it, don't even HINT at disrespect for phone patch traffic. That was a service provided to help ease the burden of foreign combat deployments. That, along with message traffic, was the proud purpose and role of MARS."

I would NEVER disrespect ANY member or volunteer of the US military, or their service to our country and service men and women. I would be glad to punch the face of someone who did. I never got to serve because of a physical problem, but I hold those who can and do in the highest respect. I also do the same for all MARS members, current and former. AND, I refuse to run down and belittle a program that is still very much alive and working.

de NA4IT

[kc7gnm]

Well, for you guys that know so much about MARS...seems you haven't been keeping up too well.

Chief Army MARS is..... A MAN !

His name is Stuart Carter.

de NA4IT

And by the way, I do realize we handle little traffic for the military, I'm not that dumb. I never said we did.

Ok I stand corrected because that was what I heard from some of my MARS buddies here that work at the MARS station.

Now I did a search and the only Stuart Carter that is in the database is in Florida with the callsign W4NHC. Now I guess he still doesn't have an amateur callsign so again how can someone be in charge of an amateur radio affiliated network not have an amateur radio callsign?

[kc7gnm]

"And, while I'm at it, don't even HINT at disrespect for phone patch traffic. That was a service provided to help ease the burden of foreign combat deployments. That, along with message traffic, was the proud purpose and role of MARS."

I would NEVER disrespect ANY member or volunteer of the US military, or their service to our country and service men and women. I would be glad to punch the face of someone who did. I never got to serve because of a physical problem, but I hold those who can and do in the highest respect. I also do the same for all MARS members, current and former. AND, I refuse to run down and belittle a program that is still very much alive and working.

de NA4IT

It might be alive but it is on life support right now. That is why it is finding other things to do besides serve the military today.

[wa4gch]

What hath God wrought?
He hath wrought that pounding brass still kicks .- ... ...


What the .... . ._.. ._.. is .- ... ... ? :eek:

[ab8al]

The article mentioned handling "96 messages" then goes on to describe what was handled. I have to laugh because "signal reports" was listed as one the types of "messages" counted in this 96 sent.

1. What MARS member worth his own salt would count a signal report as a message.

2. Why would Winlink stations care about a signal report. There entire purpose is to blast the message through.

I wish someone could find out how many of the 96 were actually signal reports. Wouldn't it look silly if 95 of the "messages" were signal reports. But it makes for good PR. Also was the internet down? Was Winlink necessary or was this a publicity event?

I am glad to see the Army Chief finally providing data that indicates they have a mission I was just disappointed to see them also demoting what constitutes a message by counting "signal reports". I would like to see these reports after all actual events. It would certainly be a morale bust to us members. After Katriana I asked and was told they were far to busy to post this type of information. Looks like they have now found the time.

Terry
AB8AL

[W5HTW]

Lee I can tell you the reason why MARS has shifted focus. It is because of the internet and cell phones. I was a MARS operator in 1999 and had my equipment over in Albania during the Kosovo campaign. I tried everything to get folks to send MARSGRAMS but because we had internet access and free phones to use most didn't bother with the slow nature of sending a MARSGram. Today it is even worse. My last deployment in the Army before I retired was in Qatar and we had internet wired into every room over there. I actually used it to chat with my wife using VOIP and instant messaging. With those forms of communications who needs MARS outdated comms anymore. That is the reason why MARS has shifted focus to EMCOMM because they needed a new mission to stay alive. Without EMCOMM and DHS they would be defunct now. It was all about saving some folks jobs here at Ft. Huachuca.

You are right though. They did some great things back in the 70's-80's but the 90's spelled the end for MARS.\

You have paraphrased why we can't recruit youth into amateur radio. Exactly the same reasons.

I was in Navy MARS back in the late 1960s, then shifted to Air Force MARS, and by mid 70s was in Army MARS. I got no equipment at all from the Navy, though I think I could have, had I been closer to a Navy base. I got quite a lot in the Air Force MARS program, and was even offered a T368, which I wish I had accepted, but did not due to room. I also was "close" to winning (with points) a complete Eldico S-line, including amp, but someone else beat me to that one. So Air Force MARS did have stuff to give out.

In Army MARS I actually never requested anything! Dumb me!

I would like to see ALL amateur radio EMCOM moved to either MARS frequencies (including VHF voice) or moved totally away from amateur radio and to a different FCC assigned Homeland Security Radio Net. Something perhaps called "Citizen's Emergency Communications System" or similar, and shifted out of the whacker mentality of those doing this in amateur radio. Most of them have zero interest in amateur radio anyway, but simply want to be a part of the local volunteer organization, similar to fire fighters and reserve officers. So let 'em.

They could have specific channels for Winlink, for encrypted message traffic (which NEVER belongs in amateur radio) and they could even ten-code away all night and no one would care.

[W5HTW]

Ok I stand corrected because that was what I heard from some of my MARS buddies here that work at the MARS station.

Now I did a search and the only Stuart Carter that is in the database is in Florida with the callsign W4NHC. Now I guess he still doesn't have an amateur callsign so again how can someone be in charge of an amateur radio affiliated network not have an amateur radio callsign?

Not at all sure how it is today. But military stations were operated by NON-hams, whose 8 hour a day job was to operate the MARS station. These were GIs whose career field was radio operator, and they operated whatever radio they were ordered to operate. Many of them knew nothing at all about amateur radio. This was their JOB. As such, their supervisiors, Lieutenants, Captains, usually, and right on up to full Colonel, were very rarely hams. They were military officers in the career field of radio communications.

On the MARS nets, the volunteers were hams, assigned MARS (non-ham) call signs. For example, mine, when I had W3GAB as my ham call, was AF3GAB in Air Force MARS.

Many of the stations on the nets would not be ham stations, but military facility stations, operated by non-hams, and using such call signs as AIR, AJ3AAA (long, long before the A-series of calls were being assigned to amateurs.)

There was no requirement that a military operator be a ham. Only the volunteers were hams. That WAS required. But the military ops could not be hams and avoid the FCC restriction on operating a radio station for pecuniary interest, as they were doing so for their meager military salary!

i

[kc7gnm]

I would like to see ALL amateur radio EMCOM moved to either MARS frequencies (including VHF voice) or moved totally away from amateur radio and to a different FCC assigned Homeland Security Radio Net. Something perhaps called "Citizen's Emergency Communications System" or similar, and shifted out of the whacker mentality of those doing this in amateur radio. Most of them have zero interest in amateur radio anyway, but simply want to be a part of the local volunteer organization, similar to fire fighters and reserve officers. So let 'em.

They could have specific channels for Winlink, for encrypted message traffic (which NEVER belongs in amateur radio) and they could even ten-code away all night and no one would care.

I totally agree with this here. Why not move it off amateur radio freqs and put it on MARS. They mirror all our bands on both ends of each band we have. This would be a better place for emcomm anyways as you would not have any interference issues as MARS is channelized.

[w6em]

........ But the military ops could not be hams and avoid the FCC restriction on operating a radio station for pecuniary interest, as they were doing so for their meager military salary!

i

Hello, Ed. As billeted-MARS station operators, as long as the ham licensed service personnel operated on assigned MARS frequencies, and not in the ham bands, they weren't regulated by the FCC. The National Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA), that is part of the Department of Commerce, licenses and regulates all federal users, including the military. Different rules than the FCC's.

Gone, today, at least from Army MARS, are most of the billeted stations. While I listened in FL, I never heard a one. While in CA, up until 2000, there were still quite a few. Fort Lewis was active as AAA9USA (Western Area gateway). Before that, the Presidio of SF was the Western Area Geteway.
Ft. Huachucha was where the Western Area MARS Director parked himself, I guess after Ft. Meade (WAR) was shut as Army MARS HQ.

The billeted stations have no purpose any longer, since 3rd party traffic is a thing of the past. Perhaps different in the other branches.

The "rooting section" from Huachucha are all paid contractor employees of the Akima Corporation, a DoD contractor.

73.

[k2ph]

Military Affiliate Radio System (MARS) Operation & Maintenance

Akima provides the management, supervision and workforce to operate and maintain the Military Affiliate Radio System (MARS) Gateway Stations at Ft. Huachuca and Ft. Detrick, including manning the radios and managing the MARS membership program at Ft. Huachuca. Akima has supported the Army MARS program with communications expertise oriented toward message handling of non-military and personal items of interest for the benefit of military personnel.

[w6em]

Military Affiliate Radio System (MARS) Operation & Maintenance

Akima provides ........expertise oriented toward message handling of non-military and personal items of interest for the benefit of military personnel.

Message-handling? Even more interesting is the provision of "personal items of interest" for military personnel. What might those be?

I goofed with respect to WAR. I guess it was Ft. Detrick, MD and not Ft. Meade, MD. I recall having heard that there's still equipment there, occasionally operated by a civilian MARS member.