black powder

[G4OIM]

I have a great intrest in British history (particularly the 17C) and was recently reading about the weapons of the time. The musket and the pike were the main armament used by the infantry in this peroid.
I guess that quite a few of you here have had experience of these antique black powder and ball guns. I would be very interested to hear your opinion of how well ( or badly!) these weapons perform.
It is obvious that modern weapons far outclass these old fashioned pieces with regard to accuracy and range but there must be a real satisfaction using the old stuff!!

Peter
G4OIM

[WB3ECV]

Cap and ball black powder is a really fun part of shooting sports, particularly muzzle loading as opposed to the new in-line rifles. The guns are very accurate when using slugs rather than ball ammunition. The dual report, first the cap then the powder charge, does take some getting used to.

[N8UZE]

While I cannot speak from personal experience in using these items, there is rather a significant number of hobbyists participating in black powder rifle activities in the US. Many if not most states even allow an extended hunting season for those who use black powder rifles.

[W4HAY]

Do a search on "muzzleloaders". You'll be overwhelmed!

There are modern propellants that do away with a lot of the problems of the classic "black powder", but it's readily available if you want authenticity.

I have a Brown Bess musket and a flintlock pistol. Loaded with black powder and small packets of flour, they get a workout every Fourth of July, and any other occasion that's suitable. As far as accuracy -- well, it's one of the reasons the Brits lost the Revolutionary War! :D

For authenticity, look into joining a re-enactment group.

[N4AUD]

I own and shoot several black powder firearms, and hunt with a percussion black powder "Hawken" type .50 caliber rifle. I can't stand those modern inline blackpowder rifles. In the 20th century there was a great resurgence of interest in muzzleloading firearms, and enthusiasts persuaded states to set aside special hunting seasons so the muzzleloaders wouldn't have to compete with modern firearms, and the guys with muzzleloaders could sort of reenact earlier times. Guys would go out in full "Long Hunter" or mountain man regalia. Really cool stuff if you are a history buff like me. Then some lawyer (I would presume) took a look at the extra time muzzle loaders got for deer hunting but didn't like the traditional black powder firearms, and the inline muzzle loader was born, a gun designed to fill a loophole. I hate them and won't shoot or own one. They defeat the purpose of a special season. Inlines were thought up by the same kind of people who recently wanted to have a "Deer Hunting Tournament." Same mentality. The first time I saw a modern telescopic sight on a muzzle loader I was stunned. Speechless and disgusted.

[kf6rdn]

I had a long barrel 50 cal as well, dont remember if it was a "hawkin", it shot a slug, or bullet not a ball. Very accurate, ton of stopping power.
Also had a replica of a Navy 1851 36 cal.

Fun, but messy, when I was playing with them, they didnt have the clean stuff.

[W3MIV]

For authenticity, look into joining a re-enactment group.

For the Roundheads?

[W1GUH]

Do any black powder enthusiats go all the way and make their own black powder? Did some of that when I was younger.

[N4AUD]

Do any black powder enthusiats go all the way and make their own black powder? Did some of that when I was younger.

I've heard of one or two, but really with factory stuff being so widely available and not very expensive it isn't worth the work or danger. I'm sure some people do it just so they will know how, but I don't know of anyone who does this on a regular basis.

[KC2ESD]

Well I shot a Flintlock Muzzleloader when I was in Virginia last September. The firearm is a 1776 replica and uses real black powder. I shot it 10 times and hit the target 25 yards away 9 times. I also was tought how to load it and I loaded it like a Pro. The smell of the black powder reminded me of something when I was younger, a Estes Rocket Engine.:D

Rick KC2ESD

[W3MIV]

A whiff of brimstone often augurs Cerberus's growl. Pick carefully your path.

[K9STH]

Civil War re-enacting is very popular here in the "colonies" and there are quite a number of persons in Europe who also re-enact the American Civil War. Although not as popular, there are quite a few persons who re-enact the Revolutionary War.

All of the Revolutionary War and the vast majority of Civil War re-enacting involve "black powder" weapons.

Since I do living history of the Civil War period as a senior officer in the Union Army I do not have any "long guns" that are black powder. However, I do have an 1851 Colt Navy revolver that is "cap and ball" (uses black powder and percussion cap).

I have attached a photo of me and President Lincoln (you didn't know that I was that old). Actually, "President Lincoln" is the re-enactor who has been recognized as the "best" Lincoln re-enactor in the United States more times over the years than any other re-enactor. The photo was taken at a Lincoln's Birthday (12 February) celebration in Dallas, Texas, several years ago.

Glen, K9STH

[n2ize]

I always wanted to get into black powder shooting. I think I would want to go 100% authentic and use real black powder i.e. gunpowder as opposed to nitrocellulose powders. years ago they used to sell some interesting do it yourself black powder kits that were relatively inexpensive. I have no idea what's available these days.

Can anyone out here suggest a good starting point. What is a good way for a beginner to get into black powder at a reasonable cost yet with something that is relatively safe and reliable ?

[K9STH]

If you want to build a kit take a look at what Dixie Gun Works has to offer.

http://www.dixiegun.com/

Glen, K9STH

[N4AUD]

I always wanted to get into black powder shooting. I think I would want to go 100% authentic and use real black powder i.e. gunpowder as opposed to nitrocellulose powders. years ago they used to sell some interesting do it yourself black powder kits that were relatively inexpensive. I have no idea what's available these days.

Can anyone out here suggest a good starting point. What is a good way for a beginner to get into black powder at a reasonable cost yet with something that is relatively safe and reliable ?

Dixie Gun Works is a great place to start, and their catalog is an education in itself. I will also suggest a magazine called "The Backwoodsman." They have a lot of articles about reenacting, muzzleloaders, knives and what not. Their articles are about traditional black powder weapons and I doubt you'll see anything about modern black powder guns in there. They even had an article about matchlock guns with a full field test. I am pretty sure you would like the magazine.
Here's their website:
http://www.backwoodsmanmag.com/

[n2ize]

Thanks, AUD & STH. I'll check those sources out. Much appreciated.

[W3MIV]

I always wanted to get into black powder shooting. I think I would want to go 100% authentic and use real black powder i.e. gunpowder as opposed to nitrocellulose powders. years ago they used to sell some interesting do it yourself black powder kits that were relatively inexpensive. I have no idea what's available these days.

Can anyone out here suggest a good starting point. What is a good way for a beginner to get into black powder at a reasonable cost yet with something that is relatively safe and reliable ?

Please understand this, John. Black powder is a very different explosive substance from nitrocellulose powders. Black powder burns at a very, very fast but constant rate, which makes it a dangerous substance to store in bulk. I guess I should also add that no black powder should be stored in the same magazine with modern smokeless nitro powders, and that you should not keep large quantities of BP on hand.

Modern nitro powders (commonly called "smokeless powder"), on the other hand, are "progressive" powders, which means that they burn at a variable rate. Pressure accelerates that rate, and when confined, progressive powders explode with tremendous force. When in a pile, however, they merely burn furiously without exploding. BLACK POWDER IN A PILE WILL EXPLODE VIOLENTLY!

The key is never, ever use a modern smokeless, progressive powder in any black powder gun. It is not intended to withstand the enormous pressures that modern powders generate when confined, and it will explode like a grenade.

The Dixie Gun Works catalog is a great source. If I can ever provide you with any assistance, or if you should have any questions, please feel free to PM or email me at any time.

[KP3FT]

I had an 1851 Colt Navy 44 caliber revolver replica and a 50 caliber Hawken rifle I made from a kit. They were both a lot of fun to use. A couple of safety tips: the black powder revolvers must have all the chambers packed with a patch or Crisco after the ball and powder is packed, otherwise they may ignite from the fired chamber. Another caution is to test fire antique muzzleloaders from a distance before firing them by hand; they may rupture and cause death or injury. I knew a guy years ago who didn't take that precaution and lost his arm below the elbow.

[K8ERV]

Accuracy? Have read that the reason the old armys lined up shoulder to shoulder was that the accuracy of muskets was so bad you had little chance of hitting a particular target, so you just fired into the group and hoped to hit someone. Sounds stupid to me. Think the Indians had it right, they were smart enuff to hide behind trees. The trees were too dumb to move.

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

[W3MIV]

Accuracy? Have read that the reason the old armys lined up shoulder to shoulder was that the accuracy of muskets was so bad you had little chance of hitting a particular target, so you just fired into the group and hoped to hit someone. Sounds stupid to me. Think the Indians had it right, they were smart enuff to hide behind trees. The trees were too dumb to move.

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

You are correct in the basis of what you heard. The unrifled, smoothbore muskets had an effective range of under 100 yards, and the formations were, indeed, massed in order to bring the maximum amount of lead possible into the opposing ranks. The front rank would fire, then kneel to reload while the rank behind them shot.

The advent of the rifled musket put paid to all those tactics. A rifled musket of the style used in the American Civil War had an effective range of about 400 yards. That, massed artillery and new repeating arms quickly brought an end to the tactics of the massed charge. Pickett's was the last.

Of all the Civil War generals, it was James Longstreet who learned the lesson first and best. His experiences at Marye's Heights in Fredericksburg seared his awareness of the perils of assaulting well covered troops using rifled muskets and modern artillery. Ironically, lying pressed to the cold earth under the barrage was another officer who learned that same lesson: Joshua Chamberlain.

[K9STH]

MIV:

Actually, massed charges were employed well into World War I by most armies and the Japanese employed them in World War II ("bonzai" charges). Even the Chinese used massed charges during the Korean War.

During World War I massed charges like during the Battle of the Somme resulted in many thousands of troops being killed in a single battle. It was the machine gun that caused the huge number of casualties and generally not the rifle. At least the machine gun resulted in the "lion's share".

The Pickett/Pettigrew charge on 3 July 1863 during the Battle of Gettysburg was definitely not the last massed charge even during the American Civil War. The Battle of the Crater (30 July 1864) is a very good example of a massed charge that resulted in very heavy casualties on the Union side. Also, the attack on Battery Wagner near Charleston, Virginia, on 11 July 1863 is another very good example of a massed charge. This is the charge by the 54th Massachusetts (one of the first, but not the first, black regiments in the Union Army) that was featured during the last minutes of the movie "Glory".

Sherman's forces were involved in quite a number of massed charges as they came down from Chattanooga to Atlanta of which the Battle of Kennesaw Mountain is a good example.

Even Roosevelt's attack on Kettle Hill (mistakenly called the Battle of San Juan Hill by many) during the Spanish American War was a massed charge.

Basically, whenever an entrenched enemy is involved a massed charge was often the "attack of choice" used by either side as late as World War II and even later.

Glen, K9STH

[n2ize]

Please understand this, John. Black powder is a very different explosive substance from nitrocellulose powders. Black powder burns at a very, very fast but constant rate, which makes it a dangerous substance to store in bulk. I guess I should also add that no black powder should be stored in the same magazine with modern smokeless nitro powders, and that you should not keep large quantities of BP on hand.

Modern nitro powders (commonly called "smokeless powder"), on the other hand, are "progressive" powders, which means that they burn at a variable rate. Pressure accelerates that rate, and when confined, progressive powders explode with tremendous force. When in a pile, however, they merely burn furiously without exploding. BLACK POWDER IN A PILE WILL EXPLODE VIOLENTLY!

The key is never, ever use a modern smokeless, progressive powder in any black powder gun. It is not intended to withstand the enormous pressures that modern powders generate when confined, and it will explode like a grenade.

The Dixie Gun Works catalog is a great source. If I can ever provide you with any assistance, or if you should have any questions, please feel free to PM or email me at any time.

Muchas Gracias... et Merci. Thanks, I'll probably have some questions as I learn more.particularly whence I reach that point where I may want to give it a try. Thanks.

[WD5ABC]

Yep, the Dixie Gun Works web site and catalog will be a crash course in old-style weapons. Something I haven't seen the other guys tell you is that black powder is nasty stuff to shoot. You have to clean the bore after 7 or 8 rounds, you swab it out with water. Your hands will be covered with smelly black stuff, but it really is a lot of fun. I've got a .45 cal Squirrel Gun (long barrel, almost as long as a Kentucky Rifle) that I built from a kit and a .54 cal Thompson.

Mine are both caplocks, after you swab it out you put a cap on it, point it down and fire to dry it out. The black powder is very corrosive so you have to clean it well when you're done and oil it. They do have some bore cleaner and lube that's made for black powder, it makes things a little easier. The caps are non-corrosive so you can dry it out by shooting a cap and you don't have to clean it again.

It's a mess but it's a heck of a lot of fun. When I lived up in E. TX at the farm I used to shoot mine all the time just for the heck of it at turtles, snakes, coke cans, etc.

Don't even THINK about using modern powder in a gun designed for black powder, it WILL blow up. Also, they have stuff called Pyrodex and some other brands that are cleaner burning replacements for black powder but to me they smell worse than the real thing. Cleaning is a little easier but still a mess.

Have fun, be careful and get somebody to go with you the first time who's done it before.

Oh, and if you try a flintlock, don't move when you hear the first bit FSSSSST and see the smoke, there's a bang that comes after all that! It sounds like a bottle rocket going off right in front of your face but don't let it scare you, stand still...

73,
Kerry, WD5ABC
Victoria, TX

[G4OIM]

Thanks for the replies gentlemen, it all sounds very interesting

Every year I attend a ceremony in London to commemerate the execution on Charles 1 (30 January 1649) and there is always a contingent or English Civil War re-enactors present, many of them carrying replica muzzel loaders. Maybe I will join them next year!
Ony problem is..Roundheads or Cavaliers!!

Peter

[KA9VQF]

A much younger me had several firearms. I was alicensed firearms dealer at one point.

I experimented a lot with flint locks assembled several of the kits you could buy from FIE.

I had a .50 cal Brown Bess replica. It was a smooth bore musket and not particularly accurate at much over 20 feet.

Later I got a Hawkins ball and cap rifle also in .50 caliber. The difference in accuracy was astounding.

I joined the local chapter of the revolutionary war brigade as a mountain man/tracker. I had buckskins to go with my outfit. I carried the Hawkins replica and a replica .40 caliber Remington ball and cap six shooter, and of course the obligatory bowie knife.

I started collecting as many genuine fire arms from the period as my budget would allow. I ended up with several Colt pistols some Remington’s and some more obscure French and English revolvers. They all went when I got divorced that time.

I had a rather nice colt six shot .45 cal rifle. Looked like a pistol but with a but stock and long barrel. It was a cartage shooter not ball and cap. I suppose I could have loaded the cartages with black powder but I used more modern smokeless nitro powder in it instead. Still it was cool and always got a lot of attention.
Yes, I have made my own black powder. I know how to leech/ distill the saltpeter from my own feces if I can’t find some bat/bird crap to get it from. Most folks I know say sea bird guano is the best source.

Getting sulfur can be a problem these days. It used to be you could goto most any drugstore and get all you needed to make a batch of black powder.

I like to make my own charcoal from white oak. The stuff you find in artist supply stores is not bad either. It comes in sticks used for drawing but it crunches up real nice.

The biggest thing with using black powder is you really have to clean and oil the heck out of your firearm as soon as you can after you are done shooting. The sulfur residue will eat the metal real fast.