Do Equipment Manufacturers Offer Enough To The Entry Level Hams?

[KD8HMO]

I just received the latest catalog from AES and I see there isnt a very big selection of HF rigs unless you want a $1500 to $4000 bells and whistles contest rig with the fish-finder displays. It seems like for the last couple of years, the big guys have started to limit their offerings to the high-dollar crowd with a few select rigs. They have little to no selection for those of us that are new or on a budget. The lowest prices that I have seen so far, are $549 for the IC-718 and $500-ish for the Elecraft kits. Wouldnt it be great if someone were to re-issue a few of the old Heathkits?

[k4ttr]

There are several QRP kits available for low prices, but they do tend to be CW only mono-band kits. As a new ham myself, I do understand what you are talking about. I'm just going to save for an HF rig as I can, and try to learn as much as I can in the mean time.

[K7JEM]

There are tons of good used HF rigs in the $300 price range. That is dirt cheap, by today's standards.

An IC718, FT857 or 897, and many others are under $1000.

Heathkits weren't all that cheap for what they were, in the day.

If there was a demand, it should be possible to build an all band, no frills, HF rig for $300 or so. But it would probably be 25 watts and very basic.

Joe

[KA4DPO]

All of the low buck rigs I see on the market as entry level are light years ahead of the stuff that was offered 10 or 15 years ago for the same price.

Besides a band scope, what does the IC-718 not have that you need? :confused:

[KD8HMO]

All of the low buck rigs I see on the market as entry level are light years ahead of the stuff that was offered 10 or 15 years ago for the same price.

Besides a band scope, what does the IC-718 not have that you need? :confused:

The IC-718 might be a good rig. My point was that there isnt much of a selection for anyone but hams with very deep pockets. The industry as a whole isnt helping very much with bringing new people into the hobby. Take a look at the nice little package the ARRL sends you when you get your license. That booklet is full of ads from the big guys showing rigs that probably 70% of the hams out here could never afford.

[KC2SMS]

The man's got a point.

I'm new - licensed at the end of November. I bought a new HT and accessories (battery charger, extra battery, better antenna, etc) and spent $500. I needed a 3-band HT because one of the local RACES repeaters is on 220 and that's my primary interest.

Looking at a mobile/home rig VHF and HF I'm looking at no less than $600 new - just for the radio. Then comes the antennas, SWR meter (not built into the mobile types), cable, etc. It'll probably be a while before I can afford to make that jump.

New stuff ain't cheap. And there aren't a lot of hamfests around here in the winter to go looking for good used stuff.

[N8UZE]

The IC-718 might be a good rig. My point was that there isnt much of a selection for anyone but hams with very deep pockets. The industry as a whole isnt helping very much with bringing new people into the hobby. Take a look at the nice little package the ARRL sends you when you get your license. That booklet is full of ads from the big guys showing rigs that probably 70% of the hams out here could never afford.

What do you consider affordable? The Icom 718 is just under $600 brand new. While $600 may seem a lot, compare that to other things people buy. It certainly is not out of line. A midline washer, dryer, dishwasher, refrigerator, etc will cost as much yet they are far simpler than the Icom 718. Ordinary people (not the rich) are plunking down a couple of thousand for new television systems.

None of us can afford to purchase everything new that we would like to have. That's why there is a used market. Take advantage of it.

Electronics have come down drastically over the years. In 1950, a black and white television cost $250. That would be the equivalent of $2043 today when adjusted for inflation. So that $600 ham radio isn't as big a bite as it first sounds.

[ab9lz]

I just received the latest catalog from AES and I see there isnt a very big selection of HF rigs unless you want a $1500 to $4000 bells and whistles contest rig with the fish-finder displays. It seems like for the last couple of years, the big guys have started to limit their offerings to the high-dollar crowd with a few select rigs. They have little to no selection for those of us that are new or on a budget. The lowest prices that I have seen so far, are $549 for the IC-718 and $500-ish for the Elecraft kits. Wouldnt it be great if someone were to re-issue a few of the old Heathkits?

There a quite a few good kits and things out there for under a 100 bucks, I'm assuming that you are discounting these radios since you can't plug a microphone in anywhere.

73 m/4

[K0RGR]

My wife frequently accuses me of spending a fortune on ham radio, but it just isn't so.

I did break down and buy an IC-7000 with part of my life's savings last year. I will admit it was a luxury item.

Prior to that, my next big purchase was a used IC-746 6-7 years ago. I think I paid around $1,000 for it.

I try to point out the neighbor with his 4 snowmobiles, the other neighbors with their motorhomes, multiple motorcycles and nice boats. I have none of those things. I drive two old cars.

[KD8HMO]

There a quite a few good kits and things out there for under a 100 bucks, I'm assuming that you are discounting these radios since you can't plug a microphone in anywhere.

73 m/4

Im talking about decent midrange HF rigs in the same range as the FT-101 series, the Heathkit line etc. All they are catering to now are a few select individuals that can afford a $1500 to $4000 radio, which doesnt include most of us. Yes, I understand that there are a few rinky-dink QRP CW kits out there, but there are really no decent HF kit based radios being offered outside of Elecraft.

[kj3n]

Do Equipment Manufacturers Offer Enough To The Entry Level Hams?

Yes. Next issue.

[ne3r]

When I was licensed in 1993, the cheapest radio you could get new was a $240 two meter handheld! You tend to get what you pay for in ham rigs (not the $10,000 ones). They could take the DSP out of the IC-718 and save a few bucks, make a few more things optional and get it below $500, but would you really want it?

Anything like a heatkit today would cost twice as much as the Icom IC-718. Elecraft kits are not meant to compete on price, they compete on quality, performance, and service, and they do a really good job with all of those.

My advice, save for an Icom IC-718 or more expensive rig. If you really want to get on the air before you can get the money for that, start looking for hamfests in the spring, take someone knowledgeable with you and go used, then start saving again for the rig you really want.

73 de Joseph Durnal NE3R

[WB2WIK]

I just received the latest catalog from AES and I see there isnt a very big selection of HF rigs unless you want a $1500 to $4000 bells and whistles contest rig with the fish-finder displays. It seems like for the last couple of years, the big guys have started to limit their offerings to the high-dollar crowd with a few select rigs. They have little to no selection for those of us that are new or on a budget. The lowest prices that I have seen so far, are $549 for the IC-718 and $500-ish for the Elecraft kits. Wouldnt it be great if someone were to re-issue a few of the old Heathkits?

::You wouldn't want to pay for them, I guarantee it!

Here's an example: A low-end, entry-level HF SSB transceiver kit from Heathkit in 1966 was the HW-100. It sold for $259. Using the CPI calculator on line at the Bureau of Labor and Statistics, that $259 in 1966 dollars is equivalent to $1599.80 in 2006 dollars. Now that we're in 2008, it should be more like $1639.40.

And that's a kit, not a factory-wired product.

You get a lot more than an HW-100 for $1639.40, today. Actually for that kind of money you can buy a high-end kit like the Elecraft K-2 with every option they offer (100W PA, SSB adapter, everything!) and have a rig that will run quadruple rings around an HW-100 and will work CW, SSB, RTTY and PSK. The HW-100 was only SSB.

Sorry, but there ain't no comparison: Today's values are much better than they were 40 years ago, when you change the number after the dollar sign to calculate the change in CPI over that 40 years.

WB2WIK/6

[k8jd]

:eek:Yes, I understand that there are a few rinky-dink QRP CW kits out there, but there are really no decent HF kit based radios being offered

What is rinky-dink about my working 45 states and 18 DX countries in 2 years of casual weekend operating with my $150 MFJ QRP rig on 30 M (IT WASN'T even a kit, factory built)....

[kj3n]

The man's got a point.

Only on the top of his head. ;)

I bought a new HT and accessories (battery charger, extra battery, better antenna, etc) and spent $500. I needed a 3-band HT because one of the local RACES repeaters is on 220 and that's my primary interest.

So, the manufacturers are to blame because you make bad spending choices? GMAB.

Looking at a mobile/home rig VHF and HF I'm looking at no less than $600 new - just for the radio.

Yet you had no issue spending $500 on an HT. I think I'd have opted for the HF/VHF/UHF rig first, but that's just me. :rolleyes:

Then comes the antennas, SWR meter (not built into the mobile types), cable, etc.

The FT-857, FT-897, IC-706MKiiG, IC-7000, and TS-480 all have built-in SWR meters that function on HF trough 6m. They are all classified as mobile radios. In fact, even the "lowly" IC-718 has an SWR meter function.

New stuff ain't cheap.

Oh, BS. I've never made more than $40K in a single year. I still managed to buy a new IC-746Pro 5 years ago and an IC-7000 about 1 year ago. Coming up with the scratch for a $600 IC-718 isn't that hard to do if you really want to.

[WA9ZZZ]

... Wouldnt it be great if someone were to re-issue a few of the old Heathkits?

No one would buy them.

I got started back in the days when Heathkits were popular. Used equipment was another way to save money.

As a high school student I somehow managed to save up about $750 for a Heathkit DX-60 transmitter with the VFO. Only good for CW or carrier controlled AM. I also got it to work with RTTY. But that was only the transmitter. For a receiver, after using the Heath AR-3 for a while I upgraded to a used Hallicrafters SX-100. That set me back about $1200. I think they were around $2000 new.

Those prices are in 2008 US dollars. The same kind of dollars that you would be paying for that IC-718. $549 for a complete transceiver that will do SSB as well as CW sounds kind of cheap compared to the $750 for just a CW and AM transmitter.

I think a lot of the complaints have to do with expectations. When radios were expensive Heathkits seemed like a good deal. These days electronic equipment is much cheaper, so people complain more even though prices are lower.

[WB2WIK]

Im talking about decent midrange HF rigs in the same range as the FT-101 series, the Heathkit line etc. All they are catering to now are a few select individuals that can afford a $1500 to $4000 radio, which doesnt include most of us. Yes, I understand that there are a few rinky-dink QRP CW kits out there, but there are really no decent HF kit based radios being offered outside of Elecraft.

::Duh. Again, if you adjust for inflation from the 60s to now, a $1500 rig is a tremendous deal and is cheaper than a $250 rig in 1965 was. It's all based on how many hours, days or weeks one must (on average) work to be able to buy the product. "No decent HF kit based radios being offered outside of Elecraft" is also pretty much "as it was" in the 60s. We had Heathkit.

There was also Knight-Kit from Allied, but they never offered anything "high end," at all -- nothing even remotely as good as, say, the Heath SB-series. Anything else offered back then in kit form for hams were mostly complete junk or just "educational kits" that were sold as part of an electronics course but didn't work well -- nothing compared with Heathkits.

Now, in the 1950s E.F. Johnson sold most of their products in either kit or factory-wired form, but none of it was cheap. The Johnson Viking Ranger Kit, about $200 in 1956, was a 40-50W output CW/AM transmitter only (no receiver, no T-R relay), would cost $2000 in "2008 dollars."

The "good old days" were very nice, but they weren't any cheaper.

WB2WIK/6

[kj3n]

Im talking about decent midrange HF rigs in the same range as the FT-101 series, the Heathkit line etc.

An IC-718 has more in it than an FT-101 and is just as (if not more) reliable.

Adjust the new price of an FT-101E up to current levels using the CPI calculator Steve mentioned, and then tell me rigs like the IC-746Pro, IC-7000, FT-950, FT-450, FT-897D, and the TS-480 are out of line, price-wise.

[N8UZE]

Today, due to advances in manufacturing technology, kit radios will cost as much as a factory assembled radio.

Kits no longer are for those wanting to save money. Instead they are for those who wish to build it themselves for personal education and satisfaction.

[KI6NNO]

There's plenty of stuff out there. Imo, it's just a matter of individual expectations.

I think that's what's missing is the education to new hams from the manufacturers in both selecting a rig, and defining "what's needed" in an entry level radio besides just sticking a radio in front of someone and letting them read product brochures and the manual and get frustrated after buying too much or too little radio the first time around.

When I went to HRO to look at their gear, it became quickly obvious that the 746 Pro was a much better radio than the 718. It wasn't even a close comparison. The same thing with Yaesu's 450 and 950 (the 950's features and overal performance being a much better package for the difference in price). Part of the issue is what useful features should be omitted or performance diminished in the entry level product in order to reduce cost and/or simplify the radio's operation?

The problem I see is that features that quickly become desireable after one starts using an entry-level rig aren't available until the next tier up - the 718 vs. the 746 for example, or the 2nd VFO with a knob on the 950. To me, that says that the entry-level should start at the current middle tier (746, 950) and the current entry-level stuff should go to Wal-Mart. (no offense to anyone who owns a 718 or 450...). The other side of the coin is that some of those quickly-desireable features come with so many extra buttons or menu selections that aren't used very often, that they're intimidating to the new Ham.

I think that's where the HRO staff was really helpful in my case. I was just going to save some $$ and desk space and get a FT-450. My "aha" moment came when I was struggling to isolate some CW and it wasn't even a busy day. The 950 and 746 did the job so much better it wasn't even funny. I still have no idea how to use all the FT-950 buttons... :eek:

[k3wrv]

1961: Arc 5 RX, $5, 80 M Arc 5 TX $5 = half a year on the paper route. New DX-20 (or Knight Adventurer) KIT about $40. And except for the kits they weren't new out of the box! And some of them were "fungus proofed". CW only. Make your own power supply.

1970 or so: Brand new NCX 3 - $370, power supply: Another $150 (Heathkit substitute, abt $40). SSB only (tho it claimed to do cw, but poorly). SwaN Single band rig , not much cheaper. Used Collins S-line, about $1K. Started new job for $7K a year.

These days - used TS-530 / 820. TenTec Argosy, or what not, aropund $250, probably including a supply. Does everything pretty well. Brand new IC 718? around $500 plus supply.

And You're complaining? There are still Arc 5's out there. Mostly only one band cw, but maybe $20 each?

de Bob

[kb9rqz]

The IC-718 might be a good rig. My point was that there isnt much of a selection for anyone but hams with very deep pockets. The industry as a whole isnt helping very much with bringing new people into the hobby. Take a look at the nice little package the ARRL sends you when you get your license. That booklet is full of ads from the big guys showing rigs that probably 70% of the hams out here could never afford.


personal I am quite found the IC 718 we got it for my wife (kd8ctl the day she passed her general exam (at AES superfest last year) it forms one on f the 2 staion we run (the other being set up mostly for digital mode on my FT-847) but the ic 718 is a nice rig I like the Yaesu FT 857 a bit better as a totla newcomer right since it has vhf and uhf as well but is eems to get a bit more noise in its front end

but I think you are beating up on the industry too much tit has tried to help new hams when their have not been many new hams they can't make money that way

[n0iu]

Why are you upset with the manufacturers? You should be upset with the person who told you that it didn't take a lot of money to get into amateur radio!

Back when I first became interested in amateur radio, one of the things I studied (besides the actual test preparation guides) were some catalogs. Since this was before the Internet and there was no QRZ or eBay, I also perused the "Yellow Sheets" for used gear. By doing this BEFORE I bothered to take the time to get my license, I was able to decide if I could afford to get into the hobby!

I am really surprised at how many posts there are about how expensive it is to get into amateur radio. Its not like the prices of equipment are kept a secret and only revealed to those AFTER you get your license!

Scott NØIU

[WB2WIK]

Why are you upset with the manufacturers? You should be upset with the person who told you that it didn't take a lot of money to get into amateur radio!

Back when I first became interested in amateur radio, one of the things I studied (besides the actual test preparation guides) were some catalogs. Since this was before the Internet and there was no QRZ or eBay, I also perused the "Yellow Sheets" for used gear. By doing this BEFORE I bothered to take the time to get my license, I was able to decide if I could afford to get into the hobby!

I am really surprised at how many posts there are about how expensive it is to get into amateur radio. Its not like the prices of equipment are kept a secret and only revealed to those AFTER you get your license!

Scott NØIU


::That's a very good point, although many of us scraped along with almost nothing for a long time -- especially those of us who became licensed as kids. My first 2-3 stations were entirely homebrewed and cost maybe $30 to build, all except for the receiver which was a commercial Hallicrafters (crappy one) that cost about $75 used. So, I had probably a "$100 station" for my first few thousand contacts and I was very happy to be on the air, making contacts.

My first VFO was homebrew and I couldn't get the drift out of it. Of course I was 14 and knew little about circuit design, I was just following a Handbook article. When I finally saved up the $79 to buy an HA-5 VFO, it seemed to have the stability of WWV and I was on Cloud Nine.

Those kind of precious memories are still available, cheaply, if people don't mind reading books and burning their fingers...

WB2WIK
President, Golden Memories Dot Org
"We think the good old days were great, or maybe they were just old, I forgot."

[W5HTW]

MFJ and others make both low power CW and SSB radios. The SSB ones really aren't cheap and when you start adding bands, the price goes up.

The three best deals in a NEW radio are the FT857, FT897, and the Icom 706MKIIGAXDRModel144PS (I assume they are that far along now??) All are under $1,000, very comparable to a Heath HW-100 in 1968.

You can find a decent TS520 for about $250 and it includes a built in power supply, but no WARC bands and no VHF/UHF. You can find a decent FT101E (pray it has never been in the hands of a CBer) for 250-300 and again it includes the AC supply. Both these radios can be used on 10 mhz and on 24 mhz. The 101E even offers AM.

You can find a used Icom 706 (original model) for under $400. No UHF, but it has everything else. Needs external power supply of course.

Someone suggested the ARC-5. Yeah buddy. I worked in a dairy bar back in 57 and it took two weeks to get enough money to buy one for $4 at the Army-Navy Surplus store. I had both 40 and 80 meter models, and could switch the single power supply. But today an ARC-5 can easily hit $100, and still needs work to make it usable, plus a complicated multi-voltage power supply. The ARC5s put thousands of hams on the air, I'm sure. They are no longer a good buy, though. At least I haven't seen any.

But Heath HW101s can be had easily, as can SB101s. So can the NCX5, and the SB34A. Plenty of used HF transceivers around, though some (like the HW101) require the external power supply.

Getting on the air does not have to be expensive. Getting on the air with dual VFOs, DSP, multiple filters, 100 watts on 2 meters, etc., is not going to be cheap. You decide what you want, what you can afford, and that is what you get.

Ed

[KG6WOU]

I'm going with it's not that expensive - I was just in Colorado and priced skiing as a hobby. If you go to a chain retailer and get one of their ski packages, it's possible to get skiis, boots, bindings and poles for under $1,000. Maybe. some skiis are over $1,000 a pair w/out bindings.

Add decent gloves, hat, goggles/sunglasses, clothing suitable for the mountain. Vail was $92 a day for a lift ticket.

By the time you are all said and done, you probably can hit the slopes for about $1,500. [And to be fair, you can rent the pricy stuff]

Golf? How much are a good set of clubs. And a round of golf will set you back? $40 to $100.

Heck, good running shoes cost $100 these days.

As hobbies go, I think Amateur radio is pretty reasonable unless you are a collector of exotics, in which case, those $15,000 radios and old Collins gear are for you!

Rigs I'd like to see:

All-mode VHF/UHF rig: 6 meters to 2.4 gig in one box with full duplex for satellite operation. Sat station in a box. Not perfect for super weak-signal, but could be built that way. Probably way to expensive to make and sell unfortunatly.

2 meter/70 cm 50 watts, 11 meter, 4/12 watts, AM/FM stereo receive, XM receive, Ipod input, all sized to fit in place of a standard car radio.

Yea, there could be more rigs priced under $1,500, but with the robust used market in the ham community, it's probably not a great market for them.

[kf6rdn]

There are hobbys that are cheap off the bat.

They are also usually simple. When you get into ANY hobby it takes a certain amount of research to see what equipment costs, and if you can afford it.
If you can't then it will take MORE research to see if there's a WAY to get into it anyway, such as with used equipment, off brand, unknown brands etc.

If you STILL find you can't afford it, and or it's not worth the money, then might be time to find a cheaper hobby, or drop one.

I enjoy shooting, but had to drop the high end aspect of it, good guns and clubs are too expensive. I could afford it if I dropped motorcycles, or AR, but I enjoy both those more then shooting at that level. So I plink..

[k0dxc]

I just received the latest catalog from AES and I see there isnt a very big selection of HF rigs unless you want a $1500 to $4000 bells and whistles contest rig with the fish-finder displays. It seems like for the last couple of years, the big guys have started to limit their offerings to the high-dollar crowd with a few select rigs. They have little to no selection for those of us that are new or on a budget. The lowest prices that I have seen so far, are $549 for the IC-718 and $500-ish for the Elecraft kits. Wouldnt it be great if someone were to re-issue a few of the old Heathkits?



I think they do, there are plenty of great rigs out there, the only thing they could do is come out with some lower costing rigs




K0DXC

[w8znx]

ham gear has never NEVER
been less expensive

it costs less in real dollars
to buy a wiz bang hf rice box

then it cost in 1933
to buy the parts so you could build
a home brew
self control osc transmitter
that might be on 40 meters
and might put out all of 8 to 12 watts cw
and a two or three tube regen receiver

compared to many other hobbies
Amateur radio is not expensive
unless you make it that way

i do not make much money
have a shack full of gear
old, new, kits, homebrew

qrp kits are not rinky dink
but then
i guess you have not worked any DX
using a kit qrp rig
down in the bottom 25 khz of 80, 40 or 20 meters

Heathkits

from Dec 1958 QST
Heathkit " Apache " transmitter kit $229.50
Heathkit " Mohawk " receiver kit $274.95

gee wiz Rockey Jones Space Ranger

thats $504.45
in 1958 dollars

mac

[KU0DM]

I remember hearing my Uncle talk about how he got a TS-520 as his first rig, this was in the 70s. He told me it was about $450.
It's a shame that you can now not buy a TS-520 for under $600!

He still has it too! I love it, operated it for a few hours on 40m a while back, it is great radio. Wish I had one...not in place of my 897D, but to go along with it.

I guess a good rig never stops being good.

BTU

[n7wr]

I don't think any amount of logic is going to change your perspective. I started in this "hobby" in 1958 and my first several stations were Heathkits. Adjusted for inflation those Heathkits cost more and contained many less features than the least expensive new HF rig on the market today. As many others have pointed out, what you get (in an IC 718 for example) is plenty good enough for any HF activity you may wish to pursue. In addition, there are many, many quality used rigs on the market for just a few hundred dollars.

You seem to be hung up on the minimum amount of $1500 which you indicate the dealers demand for a quality rig. Yes, there are a lot of $1500 and up rigs out there but if you take an AES or HRO catalogue and look closely you will see many new HF rigs priced less than that.

Not to brag, but the station that I currently use the most (because I enjoy it--and enjoyment should be a big part of getting on the air) cost me less than $1100 and that includes a Collins amplifier. And I just assembled that station (TS 830S Gold/VFO230/SP230 and the Collins 30 L1)...again, for less than $1100, within the past month. That modestly priced station with a decent antenna has been able to work anything on the air and help keep me within 2 (P5 and 7O) of top of the honor roll. The 718 and IC 706, an FT897 may not have all the bells and whistles but they have enough of them to satisfy the vast majority of hams. Good luck in deciding what to purchase, but I'll bet if you purchase what you can afford you will do just fine.

[ab9lz]

Im talking about decent midrange HF rigs


That's odd, the title of this thread is "Do Equipment Manufacturers Offer Enough To The Entry Level Hams?"... you must be confused.


All they are catering to now are a few select individuals that can afford a $1500 to $4000 radio, which doesnt include most of us.


??? Just about everyone I talk to has a rig like this, I don't think the population is that "select".


Yes, I understand that there are a few rinky-dink QRP CW kits out there


Because you aren't capable of actually using one, you write them off as "rinky dink". I think the equipment manufacturers have done a fine job of providing performance and value, perhaps if you work on your skills you'll be able to take advantage of some of the equipment that's in your price range, otherwise look to makers like Cobra and General Lee.

73 m/4

[N8UZE]

ham gear has never NEVER
been less expensive
{snip}
Heathkits

from Dec 1958 QST
Heathkit " Apache " transmitter kit $229.50
Heathkit " Mohawk " receiver kit $274.95

gee wiz Rockey Jones Space Ranger

thats $504.45
in 1958 dollars

mac

Using the inflation calculator to translate to 2006 dollars
Heathkit " Apache " transmitter kit would be $1587.29
Heathkit " Mohawk " receiver kit would be $1901.64
for a total of $3488.93

My OM bought a Yaesu FT-857D at Dayton for about $650.

[K7JBQ]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but...

The fact is that basic ham gear has never, ever, been cheaper than it is today.

Take the ICOM 718. Is it a great rig? No. Is it the best value rig in amateur radio history? Without a doubt.

I grew up in the hobby in the Heathkit era. Built a DX-40, VF-1, HW-101, Tenner, etc. All good rigs for their time. All more expensive, inflation included, than what's available today.

73,
Bill

[AC4BB]

What put training wheels on every radio.?

[k6bbc]

That's a real deal. In todays dollars I would guess the HW-101 was the same or more and not nearly the radio.

My parents bought me an FTDX-560 for about 400 I think and that was one great radio for the time - 1970.

bbc

What do you consider affordable? The Icom 718 is just under $600 brand new. While $600 may seem a lot, compare that to other things people buy. It certainly is not out of line. A midline washer, dryer, dishwasher, refrigerator, etc will cost as much yet they are far simpler than the Icom 718. Ordinary people (not the rich) are plunking down a couple of thousand for new television systems.

None of us can afford to purchase everything new that we would like to have. That's why there is a used market. Take advantage of it.

Electronics have come down drastically over the years. In 1950, a black and white television cost $250. That would be the equivalent of $2043 today when adjusted for inflation. So that $600 ham radio isn't as big a bite as it first sounds.

[KD4LEI]

It has what I needed as an entry level HF rig (IMHO) with 2m and 70cm included in it. Would love to step up to a 756 Pro III. IC-718 is a fine rig too, but I wanted to have the FM option to get on 10 FM. It would have been the rig I would have opted to go with had it featured the FM option. However, the 718 doesn't have that and the 706 series does. What I don't get is the IC-R75 is very similar to the 718 and why they didn't put the FM option in the 718 is beyond me.

If you are wanting something like the 756Pro3, fine. If it's bells and whistle's you want, start saving, or (what I don't suggest) pull out that high/low interest rate credit card to buy it and pay it off eventually. Again, I don't suggest that you do that. But, if you want to go the quick and easy way in having a rig like that, then there ya go... Just be prepared to pay for it over time.

You could say the same thing with the Kenwood or Yaesu rigs.

[KA4DPO]

Ham radio doesn't have to be an expensive hobby but you have to be realistic about what you can afford. Back in the 60's a brand new set of Drake or Collins twins were more expensive than todays rigs.

At that time my entry level rig was a Johnson Adventurer (about 60 bucks) and a National NC-173 receiver ( made in 1951) that cost around 50 dollars. I would be willing to bet that any of todays low buck starter rigs would blow the doors off of them but I made them work and had a lot of fun doing it.

There will always be dream stations as long as there are afew hams willing and able to pay the price. That doesn't make their experience any happier than yours.

[KI4NGN]

Im talking about decent midrange HF rigs in the same range as the FT-101 series, the Heathkit line etc. All they are catering to now are a few select individuals that can afford a $1500 to $4000 radio, which doesnt include most of us. Yes, I understand that there are a few rinky-dink QRP CW kits out there, but there are really no decent HF kit based radios being offered outside of Elecraft.
You're not understanding that ham radio is a very small niche market. Companies don't exist to support ham radio, but to make a profit, and there's not much profit to go around related to our hobby.

Heathkit was only inexpensive compared to the off-the-shelf rigs that were available at the time, but I used to view them as you are now viewing today's offerings. No matter how relatively inexpensive they were, I couldn't afford one.

You mention Elecraft. By the time you get through adding in all of the modules required to come up with a full blown 100 watt rig, you're in the same price range that you're complaining about.

Ours has never been an inexpensive hobby, and companies are "catering" to the same people that they've always focused on.

You wonder why there are no kits for the types of rig that you desire? You're a ham radio operator, design and build one! I can almost guarantee that if your finished rig is in any way comparable to a modern rig, by the time you finish that rig and consider all of the resources that you've sunk into it, that you'll have spent a lot more than the prices you find too high.

The bottom line is that there is no business reason for someone to offer what you're looking for, and there never has been.

Mike

[N2RJ]

When you first got your driver license, did you go out and buy a brand new car? If you were like me, you drove what mom/dad had and maybe bought a used car later on.

My first new car wasn't bought until 2003, roughly 7 years after I first got my driver license. This is actually my current car, which I am keeping until the wheels fall off and it turns to rust.

Likewise with my amateur radio license, I didn't get a new rig until 4 years after I was licensed. It was an icom 746 and frankly not all that different from the icom 718.

I had a lot of fun with older rigs, building my own equipment, operating club stations and friends' equipment at their shacks.

You guys who are kvetching about the cost of brand new equipment should talk to some hams in poorer countries who would be happy to get even a used 20 year old rig!

Besides, whatever happened to building your own equipment, even from a kit? There are quite a few options in terms of kits that do either CW or SSB. You have to make do with what you have and don't yell 'gimme gimme.'

And frankly my current rig (Icom 756 ProIII) is a gift from the XYL! I didn't intend to buy a better rig than the 746 and a TS440S ) until AFTER I had a tower and beam in the air.

Seriously guys - if you NEED new equipment you are in the WRONG hobby! Buying a rig is not like buying a cellphone where you can get the latest phone for next to nothing... We don't have 2 year contracts and subsidized pricing.

Seriously, if you feel you NEED a new rig to have fun, go ahead and cancel your ticket and find another hobby. Sounds harsh, but I believe that anyone who doesn't take some of their own initiative to find a way to get on air comfortably shouldn't even bother... Whining to Icom, YaeMotorolaSu, Kenwood et al isn't going to get you anywhere.

One last word of advice. Antenna. Don't worry about the rig. It could be a high end Icom 7800 or Ten Tec Orion II or whatever... If you don't have a good antenna you're wasting your time.

[kj3n]

One last word of advice. Antenna. Don't worry about the rig. It could be a high end Icom 7800 or Ten Tec Orion II or whatever... If you don't have a good antenna you're wasting your time.

Not to mention your money.

If I've got $11K to spend on a radio, I'd rather spend $3K on the rig and invest the other $8K in the antennas. I'll get better results in the end.

[k5jyd]

Icom makes the 718 and I bought one for abt $550 which I consider inexpensive for a 100w rig so you dont have to spend 1k.
Off topic i would add that there are several high quality qrp rigs available that can be had used for under 200. My ohr 20m rig cost me $120 used , the ant maybe 10 bucks and the power supply is an old car battery, the j38 was 25 bucks and thats all you need really to play radio with. I have worked all states with this little "rinky dink" radio
k5jyd

[ab9lz]

My ohr 20m rig cost me $120 used , the ant maybe 10 bucks and the power supply is an old car battery, the j38 was 25 bucks and thats all you need really to play radio with. I have worked all states with this little "rinky dink" radio
k5jyd

He thinks it's "rinky dink" 'cause there ain't nowhere to plug the microphone in :)

BTW nice going on the QRP WAS.

73 m/4

[AC0H]

Im talking about decent midrange HF rigs in the same range as the FT-101 series, the Heathkit line etc. All they are catering to now are a few select individuals that can afford a $1500 to $4000 radio, which doesnt include most of us. Yes, I understand that there are a few rinky-dink QRP CW kits out there, but there are really no decent HF kit based radios being offered outside of Elecraft.

The target keeps going up. Now you want a rig with mid range performance for what, $500? The IC-718 has features on it that didn't even exist when the FT-101 was in production. The IC-718 performs better than the FT-101 ever did. It's $600. This may seem harsh to some but if you can't afford an IC-718 you got in the wrong hobby. I don't believe there's a ham out there with a job who can't afford an IC-718. Some just use affordability as a strawman argument. What they really want is a high performance rig without having to pay for it.

BTW, some of those "rinky-dink QRP kits" blow the performance doors off much more expensive factory built radios. Maybe you ought to learn a little about HF and what makes a good HF rig.

[N2RJ]

The man's got a point.

I'm new - licensed at the end of November. I bought a new HT and accessories (battery charger, extra battery, better antenna, etc) and spent $500. I needed a 3-band HT because one of the local RACES repeaters is on 220 and that's my primary interest.

Looking at a mobile/home rig VHF and HF I'm looking at no less than $600 new - just for the radio. Then comes the antennas, SWR meter (not built into the mobile types), cable, etc. It'll probably be a while before I can afford to make that jump.

New stuff ain't cheap. And there aren't a lot of hamfests around here in the winter to go looking for good used stuff.

Well I guess you pretty much nailed it here - you spent your money on your primary interest, which are the local repeaters.

One of the radios I bought was a Kenwood TS-440s, a really fine rig. Some of them you can even find with a built in auto tuner - that is actually a real luxury. Price paid? $250. Works really well, not as good as my PROIII, but still works really really well.

Other radios I have - SoftRock 40 transceiver kit, software defined, one watt out. I work PSK-31 on that pretty often, and with a good antenna it works pretty well. Cost? $30!

Antennas don't have to cost a lot of money. A dipole in some high trees will get you some DX. Maybe not BS7H or 3Y0E, but certainly Europe and the Americas. Height makes even a crummy antenna perform.

SWR meters are less than $100 brand new - brands like Jetstream, which are identical to the diamond ones except for the name tag.

Coax can get expensive, but ladder line is still cheap - $25 for 100 feet.

[kc4umo]

I have never bought a new HF rig, and probably never will.
I have bought several HT's and mobile rigs new.

All but one rig lately, everything I buy is non working. I repair it and happy. Saves me a lot of cash.

[wz0o]

I just received the latest catalog from AES and I see there isnt a very big selection of HF rigs unless you want a $1500 to $4000 bells and whistles contest rig with the fish-finder displays. It seems like for the last couple of years, the big guys have started to limit their offerings to the high-dollar crowd with a few select rigs. They have little to no selection for those of us that are new or on a budget. The lowest prices that I have seen so far, are $549 for the IC-718 and $500-ish for the Elecraft kits. Wouldnt it be great if someone were to re-issue a few of the old Heathkits?

I just went through some old bills from my dad Date 12-14-1955 A Black and White RCA TV 25" new installed with antenna was $729.60 A color 25" TV today $169.99 at Walmart.
In 1959 I bought a National Receiver (can't remember the model #) for $179.00. Change those figures to todays rates and the TV is $2460.00 and the reciever is more then I paid for an IC 706 II G. In 1959 there was nothing that would do what the 706 will today.
Get some old adds on ham radio and check the prices. What it out there today is cheaper and works better.
Want a good entry level radio get a Kenwood TS 520,530,830 Ect. most are around $300.. The low price radios are there but you have to look for them.
Good luck
Brad

[WB2WIK]

I remember hearing my Uncle talk about how he got a TS-520 as his first rig, this was in the 70s. He told me it was about $450.
It's a shame that you can now not buy a TS-520 for under $600!
BTU

::I can find any number of TS-520s in perfect working condition for a lot less than $600. Usually more like $300-$350. I also find them in "rough" shape (scratch & dent specials, but still working) for about $200-$250. Every single day. They sold several thousand of these and because they were pretty simple and well constructed, most of them out there still work. I bought my TS-520S brand new in 1977 for $395 (I think -- I don't have the receipt).

Although it seems like a rig "holding its value" from $395 31 years ago to $350 today is great, in reality it's depreciated a lot. $395 in 1977 is equivalent to over $900 today.

WB2WIK/6

[kc4umo]

::I can find any number of TS-520s in perfect working condition for a lot less than $600. .

WB2WIK/6

Agree.
Bought one a few months ago for 100 bucks. Had a dirty VFO and S-meter light out. A few hours and was good as new.

[W4INF]

718










Too short, I need to add text to be at least 10 characters long to post, so this should fix it. :-0

[WA9SVD]

Im talking about decent midrange HF rigs in the same range as the FT-101 series, the Heathkit line etc. All they are catering to now are a few select individuals that can afford a $1500 to $4000 radio, which doesnt include most of us. Yes, I understand that there are a few rinky-dink QRP CW kits out there, but there are really no decent HF kit based radios being offered outside of Elecraft.

So what's so wrong with Elecraft?

UZE is correct; for the money you spend today, you are getting a quantum leap in performance and features than you did 10-20 years ago. Back in '90, a "bare bones" entry level TS-680 cost $1200. Compare that with the recently discontinued TS-570S(G) for $1100, or the TS-480 for under $900. Both THOSE radios have an infinite number of features over the typical entry level radio of years gone by.

It seems you want "entry level" bare-bones prices, but still want fancy bells and whistles.

And by the time HeathKit left the Amateur/kit market, their offerings were not any less expensive than many of the equivalent radios on the market. that's probably a big reason WHY they left the kit business.

Join a local club; there's inevitably someone who will have a used piece of equipment for sale.

[KD8HMO]

So what's so wrong with Elecraft?

UZE is correct; for the money you spend today, you are getting a quantum leap in performance and features than you did 10-20 years ago. Back in '90, a "bare bones" entry level TS-680 cost $1200. Compare that with the recently discontinued TS-570S(G) for $1100, or the TS-480 for under $900. Both THOSE radios have an infinite number of features over the typical entry level radio of years gone by.

It seems you want "entry level" bare-bones prices, but still want fancy bells and whistles.

And by the time HeathKit left the Amateur/kit market, their offerings were not any less expensive than many of the equivalent radios on the market. that's probably a big reason WHY they left the kit business.

Join a local club; there's inevitably someone who will have a used piece of equipment for sale.

I never said anything was wrong with Elecraft. It sounds like they make some very decent stuff. I am glad that they are offering top rate HF kits. I hope they remain profitable and stay in business. I would love to see a few more companies enter the market like that.

[KI4WCA]

I bought a used 718 Icom.It is wonderful.450 delivered to the front door.What I think is weird is that receivers cost more!The R-75 costs more than the 718!I guess I can see the frustration with there not being 10 rigs to choose from at the 500 to 600 dollar level, but frankly...who cares?The market won't support it and others are correct when pointing out there has never been a more inexpensive time to get on the air.Imagine how people would freakout if you transported back in time to 1970 or 1960 with a 718, or even worse a pro!!
Todays equipment is vastly more capable and inexpensive than anyone dared dream of in the past.Be thankful it is so good now!Old tube uber rigs like a SP-600 or R-390 were ultra expensive to buy and maintain.Early solid state stuff had horrible dynamic range and was still pricey.Now you can have it all for much less than the uber rigs of old.1500 to 2800 gets truly nuclear level performance.And 550 gets excellent performance from the 718.It is a GREAT time to be a ham!!!!

[KD6NIG]

I view this hobby just like any other hobby. The price range may dictate if its right for you.

I'm sure people who own $300,000 yachts for a hobby complain about prices too, but the yacht dealers just laugh at those people.

Its the same as people who complain about gas prices but drive alone, 100 miles, both ways, in that 8 passenger SUV.

I used to be into Model Railroading too. You want to talk about a price increase due to technology-except for the 'cheapo' sets you'd give to a kid, every locomotive now has lighting and electronic circuitry to run the thing. Which means a locomotive I have sitting in my display case that I paid $45 for back in those days is now easily $100. And thats low end. The power packs are all digital now too.

Course, it does make it easier-you used to have to isolate sections of track to run multiple trains. Now you just select the locomotive (or locomotives) and run everything from a wireless control in your hand. Sure its nice, but man you pay the price-even if I had space, I'd probably have to save up a few months to save the money to just get one of those!

So sure, they could make entry level rigs, but I wouldn't expect an entry level rig to have much features. The thing is, everyone is so gung-ho on having the latest cellphone/MP3 player/whatever, why not shoot for the moon? And it appears to be working. Most people either buy or drop out, it seems like, or they look where the bargains are.

I know I could still run my model railroad stuff I have now. But, if I want to join the modern age, I would have to have my engines retrofitted. I guess that would be a cheaper option. But reading a model railroad magazine 2 months ago gave me the shock of my life-some of the controllers and locomotives work so well, you can set the thing to go 1 "scale" mph-and the thing will do it. Why I would have such a need, I'm not sure......

Not just happening with Ham Radio, and its going to keep going. Even people into records are having problems finding places that still sell them now. People really seem to be saying the heck with the past and going to the future.

No wonder we can't afford anything when the standard changes every 5 years :) VHS, then DVD, now "HI-DEF" DVD. If the DVD player you have manages to last more than the 5 years it was supposed to...no matter, the format is going to change and you will have to upgrade anyway.

Talk about job security :)

[N8UZE]

Used can be quite good for starting out. I still have the Kenwood TS-130SE that I bought used when I first licensed. These days it mostly sits on the shelf as I play with my newer stuff. However, one of the clubs I belong to decided to participate in the SPAR Winter Field Day. Since I didn't want to unhook the setup on my home station or on my mobile rig, I grabbed the idle TS-130SE and took it. I learned all over again what a very fine receiver it was and how very simple to operate.

I would consider something like a used TS-130SE (with filters if possible) a fine starter rig for someone who wanted to get on the air quickly and cheaply. It is CW and SSB only (you can do digital modes through the mic input). However few beginners are initially interested in the AM niche (or the limited FM spectrum at the top of 10m) so missing AM or FM is probably not an issue. It 10m thru 80m including the WARC bands. Only 60m and 160m are missing. Again the missing bands are generally not high on most beginners list.

These radios sell for well under $300 now. One can even find the TS-430 and TS-440 for around $300 with patience. Another fine radio that can be found down in that price range is the Yaesu FT-757.

[KC0OFZ]

So now some are expecting to have a $10,000 radio given to them for little cost. Afterall we would not want them to "settle" for just a $600 rig.

[K3UD]

According to the US economic census it seems that in constant 2004 dollars the average family income 1977 has dropped from about $45,000 /Year to 38,800 in 1995 or about a 14% loss in constant dollars. It did recover a bit by 2005 and the overall loss by then was about 10%. I guarantee that overall inflation (CPI) for the 1977 time period to 2005 took a huge bite out of family average income
leaving a lot less buying power than the average family income. In effect you have less to spend today than you had in 1977. This could be why some of those posting here are in awe of anyone who can afford to buy a $1,500 - $2,500+ radio and why a $600 IC-718 seems so expensive. :(

73
George
K3UD

[NN4RH]

An IC-718 has more in it than an FT-101 and is just as (if not more) reliable.

Adjust the new price of an FT-101E up to current levels using the CPI calculator Steve mentioned, and then tell me rigs like the IC-746Pro, IC-7000, FT-950, FT-450, FT-897D, and the TS-480 are out of line, price-wise.

I am looking at an AES ad in the December 1974 issue of QST, showing an FT-101B at $649.

Adjusted for inflation, that would be $2730 in today's dollars.