View Full Version : NY Empire State Building Zapping Cars with RF
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2008/01/27/2008-01-27_empire_state_building_car_zap_mystery.html
May be the Ham Repeaters up there on 900 mhz or more probable, the broadcast TV and FM transmitters. I was up there once, and was looking at the actual transmitters. Some in the UHF region up to 250KW.
K2WH
ve2nsm
01-27-2008, 07:46 PM
My take on it?
At the beginning I said "bullcrap", but at the end of the article they talk about cars that wouldn't start because of alarm systems screwed up and this my friends is real.
In Santo Domingo downtown, along a boulevard that's called "27 de febrero", this place is LOADED with TV and FM stations. In many places the remote of the car just won't work. My wife got stranded in some places where a lot of others vehicles get stuck too. The security guards for these parkings all concurr and always warn the people NOT to set the alarm on the car cause they'll get stranded. Myself I know of one place I go often where my keyless entry acts "strange", unfortunately with my F150, entering the key in the lock disables the alarm (the right key of course) :p
The fact the car doesn't start has to do with the alarm preventing ignition.
You have to know that here every odd channel from UHF 15 to 69 is occupied, on VHF we have 2,4,5,7,9,11,13 and there are no place left on the FM dial. 2 years ago INDOTEL (our FCC) had to relocate many FM stations down so they pile sorrectly avoiding leaving spaces of 600kHz, now they pack all the stations 400kHz apart to give space to new ones. Some places in the city are just boiling with RF.
So the story about RF stranding cars because it jams the keyless entry of the vehicle I believe... zapping the computer I don't though.
Being a ham, I am always trying to work DX with my truck and it's key button door unlock thingamawhichit :D . I do find in the more busy downtown Seattle areas that I have to be much closer to the truck to unlock it and have had to be right at it to lock it a few times. I have never been locked out but could see it happening in a high RF environment. :(
k5phw
01-27-2008, 08:49 PM
Just a hunch, but all those transmitters in one spot could do a bunch of mixing.
If it happens to saturate your keyfob or whatever it could be plausible.
Did they quit putting mechanical locks on cars?
I have been in downtown Philadelphia a couple of times and had my car radio so swamped with RF that the audio section was detecting it! I could tell, because the volume was fairly loud, and turning the volume control had no affect on it.
Drive a mile away from downtown, and the effect disappeared! That happened to me a couple of times, with a Ford Gran Torino wagon.
73, Jim
G0GQK
01-27-2008, 09:44 PM
We've had that problem in some parts of Britain for years. Our buildings are not so high and there have been many times when drivers were unable to unlock their cars and alarms keep going off. Very irritating.
G0GQK
I don't know why the NYC television stations have to transmit from the city anyway. Most people in the city don't use off air antennas due to the horrible multipath and cable and FiOS is available for practically everyone.
It would be better if they put it up on a hill in New Jersey like maybe the Alpine tower, or somewhere in Westchester. That would also help the people who are in the shadow of those hills.
Oh, and this is just freakin' hilarious:
The Empire State Building Co., which refused to provide the Daily News a list of its antennas,
This info is publicly available from the FCC, on the web even, and mirrored at sites like http://www.2150.com/broadcast or http://www.tvfool.com which even has the TV coverage maps as a Google Earth kmz...
Did they quit putting mechanical locks on cars?
I believe they have on some high end autos like mercedes and BMW.
I believe they have on some high end autos like mercedes and BMW.
Stupid. Wanna bet the marketing departments were involved with that one?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2008/01/27/2008-01-27_empire_state_building_car_zap_mystery.html
May be the Ham Repeaters up there on 900 mhz or more probable, the broadcast TV and FM transmitters. I was up there once, and was looking at the actual transmitters. Some in the UHF region up to 250KW.
K2WH
Sounds like the problems in Needham, MA, and the troubles they have in the UK with Tetra.
Cortland
KA5S
I don't know why the NYC television stations have to transmit from the city anyway. Most people in the city don't use off air antennas due to the horrible multipath and cable and FiOS is available for practically everyone.
It would be better if they put it up on a hill in New Jersey like maybe the Alpine tower, or somewhere in Westchester. That would also help the people who are in the shadow of those hills.
That's an easy one to answer, Ryan. Before the WTC was built, all of the NYC area TV transmitters were located at the ESB. It was the highest point in the city... and gave the best overall coverage. Remember, we're talking about the days before cable!
When the WTC was built, there were some legal problems moving the TV transmitters down there. What's the distance between the two sites, about 2-3 miles or so? Whatever it was, it was just enough to put certain TV station transmitters legally too close to their co-channel counterparts in the Baltimore area! It took awhile to get that straightened out...
Anyway, most of the TV antennas were left on the ESB after the move. Many of the old transmitters were left behind as backups. Granted, many of those got removed in the intervening years... still, after 9/11, it's not surprising that the old antennas and equipment got pressed back into service or got replaced.
So why not relocate to NJ or Westchester or out on Long Island? Simple. It would have changed the distance between co-channel transmitters in other cities, and would have caused some legal problems similar to what happened with Baltimore. Putting everything back at the ESB was the past of least resistance.
73
ve2nsm
01-27-2008, 10:26 PM
Stupid. Wanna bet the marketing departments were involved with that one?
The point is not being able to open the car or not, the point is being unable to disarm the alarm, you unlock the car, the alarm trips, and the car does not start.
Yep... Kinda figured it would do that to neighboring cities.
Our sister company (WNYW) has backup facilities in NJ though. That is in case the ESB gets shut down for any reason.
In fact, the guy who maintains the Fox 5 main transmitter and also WNYW-DT is a ham (KQ2H), and has co-located ham repeaters up in the ESB transmitter room.
An engineer from one of the other local stations has told me that if they shut the transmitter off for the big four, most people wouldn't notice... In fact on 9/11 many people who got up late hadn't realized that the WTC transmitters were off the air. They were feeding directly to the cable companies and also through backhaul satellite feeds.
The point is not being able to open the car or not, the point is being unable to disarm the alarm, you unlock the car, the alarm trips, and the car does not start.
Not really... In many OEM alarms the alarm will disarm if you use a key and turn the lock. Honda, for example.
The problem is with some newer vehicles they've made most things all electronic, and especially in Mercedes and BMW, the electronics are prone to failure. One of the reasons European autos get such a bad reliability rating. All of the sh**y electronics causing the car to go back to the dealership time and time again for warranty work.
KC9JIQ
01-27-2008, 11:11 PM
That's an easy one to answer, Ryan. Before the WTC was built, all of the NYC area TV transmitters were located at the ESB. It was the highest point in the city... and gave the best overall coverage. Remember, we're talking about the days before cable!
When the WTC was built, there were some legal problems moving the TV transmitters down there. What's the distance between the two sites, about 2-3 miles or so? Whatever it was, it was just enough to put certain TV station transmitters legally too close to their co-channel counterparts in the Baltimore area! It took awhile to get that straightened out...
Anyway, most of the TV antennas were left on the ESB after the move. Many of the old transmitters were left behind as backups. Granted, many of those got removed in the intervening years... still, after 9/11, it's not surprising that the old antennas and equipment got pressed back into service or got replaced.
So why not relocate to NJ or Westchester or out on Long Island? Simple. It would have changed the distance between co-channel transmitters in other cities, and would have caused some legal problems similar to what happened with Baltimore. Putting everything back at the ESB was the past of least resistance.
73
It is also about the Market, the more coverage you have, the more "potential" people you can advertise to.
We have a T.V. station built right smack dab between St. Louis, MO and Paducah, KY. It serves both markets(but the fcc made them install a low power repeater near St. Louis)
It was postitioned to serve both markets, even tho the majority of the signal is in the country, I can watch crystal clear T.V. with no antenna hooked up.
ve2nsm
01-27-2008, 11:42 PM
Not really... In many OEM alarms the alarm will disarm if you use a key and turn the lock. Honda, for example.
My F-150 is like that, my wife's Jeep Grand disaster.. er cherokee is not.
VO1GXG
01-28-2008, 12:04 AM
Where is the FCC :rolleyes:
ai4ep
01-28-2008, 12:11 AM
Where IS the FCC ?
good question....surely NOT enforcing any amateur or CB rules and regulations...!!
WA2ZDY
01-28-2008, 02:25 AM
And yet not that many years ago I was able to work 52 simplex from the 86th floor observation deck at the ESB with an Icom IC2AT. That spoke volumes about the quality of that not-too-broadband receiver. I shudder to think of trying that with one of today's DC to daylight receivers.
W1GUH
01-28-2008, 03:27 PM
'RJ said:
I don't know why the NYC television stations have to transmit from the city anyway. Most people in the city don't use off air antennas due to the horrible multipath and cable and FiOS is available for practically everyone.
In the analog days, multi-path made over the air TV in the city practically useless, except as a practical demonstration of the variability of VHF propagation. It's different now. HDTV over the air in the city is perfect, and better than cable. The same set of cheap RS rabbit ears I struggled with for years is now in service as a great HDTV antenna. Over the air HD is visibly better than cable HD.
And on 9/11, the only station on the air for a while was Channel 50 out of NJ. I didn't have cable then.
And on 9/11, the only station on the air for a while was Channel 50 out of NJ. I didn't have cable then.
Really? I thought WWOR was in Seacaucus, WLIW and WLNY was in Long Island and WNYE was in Brooklyn... Also, I believe some of the hispanic stations broadcast out of NJ.
WCBS switched to the ESB facilities pretty quickly from what I understand. They had their transmitter there ready and waiting.
It is also about the Market, the more coverage you have, the more "potential" people you can advertise to.
We have a T.V. station built right smack dab between St. Louis, MO and Paducah, KY. It serves both markets(but the fcc made them install a low power repeater near St. Louis)
It was postitioned to serve both markets, even tho the majority of the signal is in the country, I can watch crystal clear T.V. with no antenna hooked up.
Moving a broadcast TV transmitter from the ESB to a tower on Long Island or across the river in NJ doesn't change the market it serves. In fact, considering the number of people who watch their "local" stations via cable or satellite (I do!) these days, I doubt anyone would even notice.
Now, as an academic excercise, if you moved, say WWOR from (city of license) Seacaucus NJ to Camden NJ, you'd be moving into a different market (NYC to Filthadelphia). Assuming that you could do that, of course... the reality is that that wouldn't happen without major channel changes and other disruptions -- and why would you since cable and satellite and (where available) FIOS makes that type of move unneccesary?
Really? I thought WWOR was in Seacaucus, WLIW and WLNY was in Long Island and WNYE was in Brooklyn... Also, I believe some of the hispanic stations broadcast out of NJ.
WCBS switched to the ESB facilities pretty quickly from what I understand. They had their transmitter there ready and waiting.I know the official city of license for WWOR is Seacaucus, and that at one time they actually had a physical studio out there. I don't know if they moved the primary transmitter -- there may be a backup. And I don't know if they still maintain a working studio & offices there.
Seacaucus was the actual location for the WOR-AM transmitter and antenna array... there was a video a few months back of the destruction of the old site after they moved the station to their new site a mile or three away.
Ryan, you may not be aware of this, but the ONLY reason that WWOR is licensed for Seacaucus dates back to when it was still WOR-TV, owned by RKO General (a subsidiary of General Tire & Rubber). General Tire was desperately trying to hold on to the license (they'd gotten in some hot water with the FCC -- details are on wikipedia and other places, I won't bore you with repetition here) and officially changed the city of license in a vain hope that they wouldn't lose the license on the grounds of being the only commercial VHF TV station licensed for New Jersey.
Of course, that gambit ultimately failed... GT&R ultimately lost, was forced to seel most or all their station. The AM kept WOR, and when the TV station was sold separately, it became WWOR. A call that (due to history but no fault of the current or immediate past ownership) still grates when I hear or read it.
While I'm thinking of it... a couple of small bits of broadcast trivia to ponder:
1. What was the first VHF commercial station licensed to New Jersey? Where is it now?
2. What 3 letter call was once a commercial AM station in NJ?
2a. Why did that call move to another city?
3. There are three "K" commercial calls in Pennsylvania. Can you name them? [Hint: All are AM. Two are also TV. These two have the same owner... which is the same owner involved in #2]
3a. Which one of these three did NOT originate in PA?
3b. Of the other two, which is the older station?
73
KI4NGN
01-28-2008, 06:12 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2008/01/27/2008-01-27_empire_state_building_car_zap_mystery.html
May be the Ham Repeaters up there on 900 mhz or more probable, the broadcast TV and FM transmitters. I was up there once, and was looking at the actual transmitters. Some in the UHF region up to 250KW.
K2WH
Bill, did you move your repeater to a new site??
Mike
Empire has been through many thorough R.F. studies. There are more coming up soon. Broadcasters spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to prove compliance, especially for R.F. exposure in sightseeing areas. The place is home to a whole lot of great test equipment. Spurs happen but I'd be inclined to look in the direction of front end overload of those remote controls. The transmitters here have very little chance of mixing as they all use cavity filters.
When WTC was destroyed there was a mad scramble to get broadcasting working from here. Makes for some very interesting reading:
http://www.fybush.com/wtc-recovery.html
Many TV outlets still have backups working at Alpine. The signal from there does not make it through all the tall buildings and out towards Static Island and Central NJ very well.
Actual broadcast TV viewing percentages of over the air figures vary somewhat. Even if it is only 8 percent it is still 8 percent of the largest TV market on the planet. Several CATV outlets still use over the air feeds. It's a nice thing to have available for public safety if the SHTF.
An ICOM 2AT is the best handheld I've road tested up here. Many others just get killed from front end overload. It's also a bad idea to transmit from up here on the shorter ham bands without going through some sort of bandpass filtering due to the intermod formerly mentioned. Most of the better mobile 2 meter rigs have pretty good resonators for this purpose. I have an Icom 271A with a burnt out final section. The driver makes 100 milliwatts into 50 ohms. I pipe that into a resonant cavity and have a vertical taped to a South window and another to the East. Best DX so far was last summer was South Carolina with my other QRO rig. That rig runs 4 watts.
Dave Calhoun
WNBC/WNJU Cheap Engineer.
Bill, did you move your repeater to a new site??
Mike
There's a DSTAR 1.2GHz repeater up at empire as well.
Really? I thought WWOR was in Seacaucus, WLIW and WLNY was in Long Island and WNYE was in Brooklyn... Also, I believe some of the hispanic stations broadcast out of NJ.
WCBS switched to the ESB facilities pretty quickly from what I understand. They had their transmitter there ready and waiting.
WNYE TV is in Brooklyn, but their transmitter was at the ESB on 9/11. When I worked there, I had lobbied to have the TX moved to ESB after seeing a fire at the WTC and having first hand seen numerous instances of fire there. Long after I left, they finally got the funding to move the transmitter. By that time all the allocations at the WTC were taken up and they ended up at the ESB. Talk about serendipity.
kg4kww
01-29-2008, 02:52 AM
I think it's being caused by UFO's
k0cmh
01-30-2008, 05:24 PM
I was there not long ago, the Empire State Building that is, down at ground level.
Everything was just fine, until I put on my aluminum foil hat and extended the rabbit ears. I don't remember much after that.:)
Likely there are many sources of problems.
One of them is RFI from every source, and there are thousands and thousands in NYC from everywhere. HOwever, most car systems are not 'protected' from interference. IT is up to manufacturers to design them correctly. Just think what would happen if you were driving down the street, and keyed up your 600w HF amp or 100w VHF moblle, and air bags went off up and down the street, if anti lock brake systems locked up putting people into uncontrolled skids, etc. Or shutting off ignitions in the middle of an interstate hghway.
Many after market systems are not rfi tested, and installed with lots of extra wires to pick up RF.
The frequencies that car link systems use are likely full of IM, and the receivers used are likely the cheapest they can find.
Most cars still come with key locks and you have a key on the fob to unlock vehicles (or should!). Most cars will start with a key, even when the keyless feature seems to be not working. (batteries do go dead). Likely people panic and don't even realize they have a key.
Way back when, TV signals were received direct from the empire state building. As a kid growing up in the 50s and 60s in the suburbs, the ESB was on the only building in NYC I could see from the roof of the house. Sigs went out 50-60 miles with TV antennas that weren't too big. There was nothing else as tall.
The best place to be is under a transmitting tower or antenna - the signals go out - very directional antennas, not pointed down! Why waste energy going down, when your listeners are 5-100 miles out?
At any given time, between all the street traffic, including cellular, you are getting 100 times as much RF from them...police, fire, business radios, wireless links, and just plain noise sources.
Funny. I haven't heard of this problem elsewhere. The TV stations and FM stations on the ESB are not the biggest baddest transmitters around. The FM stations are fairly low power compared to many.
I'd bet there is a lot more RF coming from other buildings and systems in NYC on the frequencies the car links use.
KC9JIQ
01-30-2008, 10:45 PM
Funny. I haven't heard of this problem elsewhere. The TV stations and FM stations on the ESB are not the biggest baddest transmitters around. The FM stations are fairly low power compared to many.
I'd bet there is a lot more RF coming from other buildings and systems in NYC on the frequencies the car links use.
Probably more RF from Mt. Wilson than the ESB. Probably the two most RF saturated areas in the U.S.
KA8DKT
01-31-2008, 08:19 PM
Just a hunch, but all those transmitters in one spot could do a bunch of mixing.
If it happens to saturate your keyfob or whatever it could be plausible.
I'd say more likely it is front end overload in the receiver for the keyless entry and alarm.
-gary
k5phw
01-31-2008, 11:02 PM
I agree with that. I was thinking overload but typing mixing.
I am K5PHW and I approve this message. :)
k2vhw
02-02-2008, 05:07 AM
An interesting story. When I worked for RCA land mobile division and served as a 'field rep.', we had a very strange but explainable problem with our line of 'mobile radios'. (Those are the stationary/installed units) Customers such as taxi/limosines using these radios would complain that when they were within one block of ESB, their radios seemed to 'go deaf'. The problem was that there was so much RF in the immediate area of ESB that it would bias the switching diode in the T/R antenna switching circuit placing the switch into 'transmit' mode.
The resolve was to modify all the radios of complaining users to using PIN diodes which required internal D.C. bias to switch. (series 500 & 1000 RCA mobiles)
Marv