Why did the FCC choose 11 meters? [Archive]

k0cmh

01-24-2008, 05:31 PM

However, this is a serious question, about some history.

I wonder why the FCC decided to use the 11 meter band when they set up the Citizens Band. Since it was supposed to be for personal, short range communications, why would they pick a frequency with such great DX capabilities.

I would have thought they would selected something higher, that does not have the really long range propagation, such as 6 meters and above.

Was it because the equipment would have been to expensive then? The technology for those higher frequencies not that well nailed down at that time? Was there no room to allocate any bands up there (but then how come FRS)?

Does anyone have the history behind this decision. Please -- no CB bashing.

N2RJ

01-24-2008, 05:35 PM

My guess is the cheap equipment. Besides, 10 isn't really open unless there's some sunspots or Sporadic E.

KE6SHJ

01-24-2008, 05:35 PM

Interesting ? Id like to know as well.

K7JEM

01-24-2008, 06:00 PM

Yes.

In 1957, it was difficult to make low priced, decent, radio equipment that operated at VHF.

The 11M band was available, and it seemed logical that the equipment would be able to be built to the technical standards, while not being overpriced.

They figured that a 5 watt station wouldn't have enough power to work well in skip situations, that's where they were wrong.

If it had been started 10 to 15 years later, VHF highband would have been the choice.

In the late 70's, there was a proposal to take 2MHz of our 220 band, and reallocate it to "Class E" CB. This never materialized, due to ham objections, but it actually looked like in might have occurred.

In hindsight, the class E service might have been a better choice, and made our 220 band more usable, too.

In the early 80's, there was a proposal for a new CB band at 900MHz, that would allow repeaters and phone patches. GE was a main player behind that proposal, and actually produced some prototype radios. At that time, 900 MHz was considered "way up there", and some people were worried about the costs of equipment, and how well it would actually work.

Joe

KC2PBJ

01-24-2008, 06:02 PM

From my recollection, we lost eleven meters because we were rarely, if ever, using it. Disuse generates loss.

w3wn

01-24-2008, 06:04 PM

My understanding is that there were several factors involved, including but not limited to:

-- The decision was made at the bottom of a sun spot cycle
-- The decision was made by non-technically oriented people
-- Lobbying from manufacturers helped sway the decision, since they figured they could manufacture cheap gear that was pretty much already designed.
-- Amateur use of the band was light because of interference from medical and industrial devices in the band
-- Amateur use of the band was light because it was primarily a domestic, not an international band.
-- ...and, of course, because it was the bottom of a solar cycle, which meant the band wasn't open very often, so it was lightly used. Even though it was one of the few areas where Amateur FAX could be used at the time.
-- Amateur use was also minimal because of the band was too close to 10 meters. #

All of which meant it was an "easy" choice for a band to take, without displacing commercial users with money and political connections.

Also:

-- No one anticipated anything like the after-effects of the Independant Trucker's Strike in the very early 1970's, and how it would suddenly make the CB band "popular" --and suffer such exponential growth that it became unmanageable virtually overnight.
-- VHF, as a line of sight band, was thought to be too limited for what the FCC intended the band for. #
-- Remember too, the state of the art in the era we're talking about (over 50 years ago).
-- To say nothing of what we know about VHF and UHF propagation now as opposed to then.
-- Repeaters? #We take them for granted now, but then? #Only relatively expensive commercial systems existed.

KD4IFB

01-24-2008, 06:08 PM

Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Jan. 24 2008,11:00)]Yes.

In 1957, it was difficult to make low priced, decent, radio equipment that operated at VHF.

The 11M band was available, and it seemed logical that the equipment would be able to be built to the technical standards, while not being overpriced.

They figured that a 5 watt station wouldn't have enough power to work well in skip situations, that's where they were wrong.

If it had been started 10 to 15 years later, VHF highband would have been the choice.

In the late 70's, there was a proposal to take 2MHz of our 220 band, and reallocate it to "Class E" CB. This never materialized, due to ham objections, but it actually looked like in might have occurred.

In hindsight, the class E service might have been a better choice, and made our 220 band more usable, too.

In the early 80's, there was a proposal for a new CB band at 900MHz, that would allow repeaters and phone patches. GE was a main player behind that proposal, and actually produced some prototype radios. At that time, 900 MHz was considered "way up there", and some people were worried about the costs of equipment, and how well it would actually work.

Joe
So from what your saying is, that there was a chance to get 11M back for the exchange of some of the 220 band?? But because hams objected, and we didnt get it back! I believe that! Real bright! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif Theyll just take it all away as needed to sell it off to UPS etc..

W5HTW

01-24-2008, 06:12 PM

Originally CB radio was on 465 mhz, and the equipment was expensive to buy and maintain. The FCC wanted to create a "personal radio service" that could also be used for business, as a less expensive to the Business Band (Land Mobile) service. The idea was to permit families and small businesses to use this cheaper service. The FCC mistakenly thought Americans were capable of obeying the rules. That was a critical error.

During that period of time, much Public Safety and Land Mobile was in the 30 to 50 mhz range (some still is.) There was nowhere above 30 mhz to put this new radio service. Above the aircraft band (135 mhz) was telephone paging, the rapidly expanding VHF business band, and more public safety. There really wasn't much of a place to put this new radio service. Below 26 mhz was foreign broadcasting (lot of it is still there) and military, as well as some commercial services.

The FCC must have felt that hams, as shared users of 11 meters, were not actually using that band very much, and as far as I could tell, that was correct. Most of our equipment was 11 meter capable, but I rarely heard signals on the band.

I think, too, the FCC thought that with the industrial and medical uses of the band continuing, that CB would not have the potential of getting out of hand. Again, they were drastically wrong.

In the early 1960s a lot of small businesses, such as plumbing contractors, delivery services, even taxis, legally used Class D CB for their business, which was exactly what it was meant to be. In the early days, CB licenses consisted of a base station license and a maximum of 8 mobile units under one license. Only two or maybe four, of the available 23 channels were to be used for communication with stations of other licenses. The rest of the channels were for communication within a specific license - base to mobile, or mobile to mobile. This would encourage family use of the service, as well as small business. And a really large percentage of CB users of that era operated completely legally.

There was, though, a faction that discovered 'skip.' Because skip was illegal, they developed "handles" to hide their identity, and used personal post office boxes for QSL information. By 1963, much of the day CB was not usable by the legit operators, and was overrun with illegal operations. Most of the small businesses gave up entirely and went to the more expensive 150 mhz business band, which was now open.

There was no stuffing the horse back into the barn. But the original reasoning was probably good, if only Americans had had a sense of responsibility, to obey the rules. They didn't, and the rest is history.

The truly sad part is it created a new society within communications, that began to invade amateur radio in the 1970s, expanded rapidly in the 1980s after the FCC stopped testing of hams, and exploded in the 1990s, with business use of repeaters, cell phone hams, an irresistable urge to modify our HTs (and HF equipment, too) so we can get "them extry channels" that we aren't permitted to operate on, and a whole lot more.

The horse not only escaped the barn, it had defective offspring that overran ham radio as well.

Ed

K7JEM

01-24-2008, 06:13 PM

Quote[/b] (w3wn @ Jan. 24 2008,11:04)]My understanding is that there were several factors involved, including but not limited to:

-- The decision was made at the bottom of a sun spot cycle
-- The decision was made by non-technically oriented people
-- Lobbying from manufacturers helped sway the decision, since they figured they could manufacture cheap gear that was pretty much already designed.
-- Amateur use of the band was light because of interference from medical and industrial devices in the band
-- Amateur use of the band was light because it was primarily a domestic, not an international band.
-- ...and, of course, because it was the bottom of a solar cycle, which meant the band wasn't open very often, so it was lightly used. Even though it was one of the few areas where Amateur FAX could be used at the time.
-- Amateur use was also minimal because of the band was too close to 10 meters.

All of which meant it was an "easy" choice for a band to take, without displacing commercial users with money and political connections.

Also:

-- No one anticipated anything like the after-effects of the Independant Trucker's Strike in the very early 1970's, and how it would suddenly make the CB band "popular" --and suffer such exponential growth that it became unmanageable virtually overnight.
-- VHF, as a line of sight band, was thought to be too limited for what the FCC intended the band for.
-- Remember too, the state of the art in the era we're talking about (over 50 years ago).
-- To say nothing of what we know about VHF and UHF propagation now as opposed to then.
-- Repeaters? We take them for granted now, but then? Only relatively expensive commercial systems existed.
I agree with most of what you say here, but CB was implemented during the peak of sunspot activity, not during a lull.

WW3QB

01-24-2008, 06:14 PM

Quote[/b] (KD4IFB @ Jan. 24 2008,11:08)]So from what your saying is, that there was a chance to get 11M back for the exchange of some of the 220 band?? But because hams objected, and we didnt get it back! # # # # #I believe that! Real bright! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif # Theyll just take it all away as needed to sell it off to UPS etc..
It was to be in addition to the 11m CB band. Getting 11m back was never proposed. The idea later became FRS and GMRS.

KD4IFB

01-24-2008, 06:16 PM

Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Jan. 24 2008,11:13)]Quote[/b] (w3wn @ Jan. 24 2008,11:04)]My understanding is that there were several factors involved, including but not limited to:

-- The decision was made at the bottom of a sun spot cycle
-- The decision was made by non-technically oriented people
-- Lobbying from manufacturers helped sway the decision, since they figured they could manufacture cheap gear that was pretty much already designed.
-- Amateur use of the band was light because of interference from medical and industrial devices in the band
-- Amateur use of the band was light because it was primarily a domestic, not an international band.
-- ...and, of course, because it was the bottom of a solar cycle, which meant the band wasn't open very often, so it was lightly used. #Even though it was one of the few areas where Amateur FAX could be used at the time.
-- Amateur use was also minimal because of the band was too close to 10 meters. #

All of which meant it was an "easy" choice for a band to take, without displacing commercial users with money and political connections.

Also:

-- No one anticipated anything like the after-effects of the Independant Trucker's Strike in the very early 1970's, and how it would suddenly make the CB band "popular" --and suffer such exponential growth that it became unmanageable virtually overnight.
-- VHF, as a line of sight band, was thought to be too limited for what the FCC intended the band for. #
-- Remember too, the state of the art in the era we're talking about (over 50 years ago).
-- To say nothing of what we know about VHF and UHF propagation now as opposed to then.
-- Repeaters? #We take them for granted now, but then? #Only relatively expensive commercial systems existed.
I agree with most of what you say here, but CB was implemented during the peak of sunspot activity, not during a lull.
Then they should have known its strenghts when it comes to conditions and propagation...Should have gave them 220 and took 11 back..Need to do it before the Gov. sells it all. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

K7JEM

01-24-2008, 06:17 PM

Quote[/b] (KD4IFB @ Jan. 24 2008,11:08)]So from what your saying is, that there was a chance to get 11M back for the exchange of some of the 220 band?? But because hams objected, and we didnt get it back! I believe that! Real bright! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif Theyll just take it all away as needed to sell it off to UPS etc..
No, it wasn't a trade. They were going to take the little used bottom of 220 and reassign it to CB. No mention of what would become of 27MHz, perhaps after a few years it would have been given back, who knows?

Joe

KD4IFB

01-24-2008, 06:17 PM

Quote[/b] (ww3qb @ Jan. 24 2008,11:14)]Quote[/b] (KD4IFB @ Jan. 24 2008,11:08)]So from what your saying is, that there was a chance to get 11M back for the exchange of some of the 220 band?? But because hams objected, and we didnt get it back! # # # # #I believe that! Real bright! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif # Theyll just take it all away as needed to sell it off to UPS etc..
It was to be in addition to the 11m CB band. Getting 11m back was never proposed. The idea later became FRS and GMRS.
Oh, I see..Thnx

KD4IFB

01-24-2008, 06:19 PM

Well it would be nice to trade it off for 11M before they sell it all.. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif 220 that is.

WW3QB

01-24-2008, 06:19 PM

11m was never going to be given back to ham radio. We might have taken the trade if it was offered, but by then it was much too late to close down 11m CB. There was a lot of money invested in it.

K9STH

01-24-2008, 06:19 PM

Amateur radio was allowed on the 11 meter band as terciary user. That is 2 other services had priority. However, both of those services really did not receive anything. The main use of the 11 meter band was diathermy which involved using radio waves for medical treatment purposes. Diathermy produces a pretty "nasty" sounding signal that is fairly broad in bandwidth. Amateur radio operators had to accept such interference without any objections.

On a world-wide basis the primary use of the 11 meter band was land-mobile of which the Class "D" Citizen's Radio Service was such a service. Now many other countries had also allocated amateur radio to the 11 meter band on a secondary or terciary basis. In late 1957 when the FCC established the Class "D" Citizen's Radio Service they were actually bringing the use in the United States to conform with international allocations.

After the United States established the "CB" service on 11 meters other countries started doing the same.

The 11 meter amateur band was never very popular. In an attempt to increase activity and to help persuade the FCC to not establish a new service several contests were held on the 11 meter band. However, the participation was still dismal and had no effect on the FCC's establishment of the "CB" band.

Since the band was so close to the 10 meter amateur radio band most manufacturers just added an "11" to the nomenclature on the transmitters as part of the "10". For VFO operation the manufacturers just put a capacitor in parallel with the 7 MHz generation dropping the frequency down to 6.750 MHz which when multiplied 4 times gives a frequency of 27 MHz. The transmitter just operated on the 10 meter band when on 27 MHz since the bandwidth was definitely sufficient to cover the frequency.

Even though many amateur radio operators think that the 11 meter band was an amateur radio band such is not true. Amateur radio was allowed on those frequencies on a very low priority basis and when a need was perceived for a land-mobile service (which corresponded to international agreements) amateur radio was no longer approved for the 11 meter band.

Glen, K9STH

01-24-2008, 06:24 PM

My understanding was that the 11 meter band was seldom used by amateurs because its 3rd harmonic fell in a very bad spot of channel 5 TV allocation causing interferance to one of the most often licensed and prime TV channels.

The FCC figured there would not be a lot of resistance from the amateur operators and with only 5 watts allowed in the new CB service the TVI problem would pretty much go away. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

WA9SVD

01-24-2008, 06:25 PM

Add to all that, 11 Meters was originally a "Secondary" allocation for Amateur Radio; "Land Mobile" was a primary allocation. Class D was considered a form of Land Mobile use, so Amateurs didn't really have much grounds to fight the loss. And remember, the "Citizen's Radio Service(s)" are not just an American phenomenon on 11 Meters. It also exists (with some variation) in most parts of the world.

N0NB

01-24-2008, 06:46 PM

Ed and Glen have written excellent summations. #Had the Class E proposal gone through, Class D would still remain to this day. #The fact is there are too many 27 MHz radios out there. #Even if sales of new Class D equipment had been banned effective with the creation of Class E, there would have still been far too much of equipment out there to expect that any other service could use those frequencies without extensive interference.

Part of the issue is that the federal government through the FCC has retained unto itself the complete regulation of all things radio. #For about 35 years congress has not cared to fund the FCC adequately so it can fulfill its enforcement duties as congress' focus has been on funding socialist programs. #Local governments are far better positioned to monitor and enforce laws regarding the sale of already illegal equipment, but the impotent FCC will not give up that power. #As a result the problems fester and get even more infected.

Class D CB is an embarrassment to anyone with a sense of lawful operation. #What surprises me is that some sharp attorney fighting some FCC enforcement case hasn't used the willful ignoring of the CB problem on the part of the FCC to get the case thrown out under equal protection laws. #When that happens the federal government will either have no enforcement oversight or will be compelled to actually clean up the mess.

K8YZK

01-24-2008, 10:06 PM

"Local governments are far better positioned to monitor and enforce laws regarding the sale of already illegal equipment, but the impotent FCC will not give up that power."

I myself would not want the Local government involved in this. Who would tell the cities what is illegal and what is not, the FCC most likely. I do not want to see another hand in the cookie jar, and another dictator which you see in a lot of small town goverments.

The FCC washed their hands of 11 meters years ago, and it will be many years before they do anything at all.

k0cmh

01-24-2008, 10:29 PM

This has been some great information and I thank you all for your help.

As an aside to this thread, I got into CB radio in 1972, and caught the very tail end of "legit" users. I got a licesne (kfn0236), read the rules and abided by them. I only talked to those that used callsigns, like many others did then. I ceased operation when I became aware that "skip was in", like the rules said.

Then came Smoky and the Bandit, and then CB went out the window. I completely gave it up in 1975.

Then 29 years later, I got my Ham license. Yes, I was a 5 wpm licensee (my first was a tech with the element 1 and I worked the daylights out of the old "novice" cw bands), but my CW speed is up to almost 20 now. Yes, my tests were easier (general in May 2005), but I really did study the material so that I could answer the questions even if there was not a choice of four answers.

Again, thanks for the food info.

W4INF

01-25-2008, 12:03 AM

Abundent Answers (http://tinyurl.com/2tx)

wa9cwx

01-25-2008, 12:39 AM

The History as Ed presented, and Glen elaborated, is as I remember it.
I never operated 'CB' as I never held a license for it, and I got my Novice right at the age of 13, after being an 'SWL' for a year, and a BCL for the year prior to THAT.
But, I remember that legal operation WAS the rule at the time, and I had a friend who knew a CBer who owned a radio repair shop, and I visited there several times.

A few years ago, in an attempt to find out just what DID motivate the 11 meter choice, I purchased (eBay) a copy of the radio conference of 1958, or whichever year it was, proceedings. (International radio conference)..Right at the begining of the service. I could NOT really make much info out of the thick booklet, and MUCH of it was way to boreing to spend much time with, but I think the explanations above are the best I have heard.

I was not a ham in 1958, I got my license in 1962, so I never heard hams on 11, but I remember that there was not TOO much excitement, and NO ONE thought there would be such blatant ignoring of the rules....
Even in 1962, hams LOGGED every CQ, every TEST carrier.... It was a different world before VietnNam and Watergate.... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Frank

wb4old

01-25-2008, 12:43 AM

ai4ep

01-25-2008, 12:46 AM

...also something worth mentioning is that folks MAY not have known AS MUCH about the ssunspot cycles as they do now...especially those who make major decision s at the offices of the FCC.

no insult intended. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

w2vw

01-25-2008, 01:01 AM

N0NB

01-25-2008, 02:22 AM

Quote[/b] (wa9cwx @ Jan. 24 2008,18:39)]Even in 1962, hams LOGGED every CQ, every TEST carrier.... It was a different world before VietnNam and Watergate.... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
I think that is key. #The way US citizens viewed government changed markedly during that time period--and the government is largely to blame for that, but that's another topic for another forum. #

From JFK's assassination to the low days of the gas crunch of the early '70s, we went from a mostly law abiding people to a bunch of scofflaws with the imposition of the 55 MPH national speed limit. #This attitude was fueled in popular culture at the time and spread rapidly. #Buying a CB to avoid speeding tickets led to violating Part 95 as second nature. #People got into CB to thumb their nose at the "man" and the man said, "Pffft" and walked away.

Today we are reaping the fruits of those times in many ways.

k7mh

01-25-2008, 04:36 AM

Quote[/b] ]The way US citizens viewed government changed markedly during that time period--and the government is largely to blame for that, but that's another topic for another forum.
Not the answer, there was a fairly large amount of illegal operation on CB when it started on 11 meters. In 1957, the FCC had to shuffle allocations in the high freq. spectrum and CB lost 6 MHz from it's 460 Mhz allocation.
Simultaneously, 26.96 to 27.23 was reassigned to the "new" CB. Hams vigorously protested but they had to vacate the range. It was entered in the FCC books on July 3, 1958 and opened for use on Sept. 11http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif 1958.
No...lack of knowledge of sunspots, or decisions during sunspot minimum...not the answer.
The late 50's and early 60's were absolutely spectacular for propagation.
A stellar cycle maximum. An immediate, giant, nationwide CB partyline and guess what? CB AND Ham gear readily available to use on it! A great place to operate a "sort of ham station" without formalities of getting a ham license. Regulations were ignored from the get-go and CB grew very quickly. The FCC was naive and had never had to face a lot of illegal operation before. Who would dare? Hams? Broadcasters? No.
Ahar mates! Bootleggers sez I!!

w4brf

01-25-2008, 03:06 PM

Quote[/b] (k7mh @ Jan. 24 2008,21:36)]Quote[/b] ]The way US citizens viewed government changed markedly during that time period--and the government is largely to blame for that, but that's another topic for another forum. #
Not the answer, there was a fairly large amount of illegal operation on CB when it started on 11 meters. In 1957, the FCC had to shuffle allocations in the high freq. spectrum and CB lost 6 MHz from it's 460 Mhz allocation.
Simultaneously, 26.96 to 27.23 was reassigned to the "new" CB. . #It was entered in the FCC books on July 3, 1958 and opened for use on Sept. 11http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif # 1958.
No...lack of knowledge of sunspots, or decisions during sunspot minimum...not the answer.
The late 50's and early 60's were absolutely spectacular for propagation.
A stellar cycle maximum. An immediate, giant, nationwide CB partyline and guess what? CB AND Ham gear readily available to use on it! A great place to operate a "sort of ham station" without formalities of getting a ham license. Regulations were ignored from the get-go and CB grew very quickly. The FCC was naive and had never had to face a lot of illegal operation before. Who would dare? Hams? Broadcasters? No.
Ahar mates! Bootleggers sez I!!
k7mh-Hams vigorously protested but they had to vacate the range-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------(oh yes they did they Beat that horse to death to ,But they soon learnd if the fcc wants to do something Bad enought they will get it ,and all that crying will do nothing,it,s just a fact some hams was Born to complain about everything if its not done there way and they will die complaining and it still will not do them any good , and if the fcc wants another Band they will get that to , http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

n4cd

01-26-2008, 05:02 PM

The old original CB band was up at 460. Very limited equipment and expensive and power hungry (battery portables).

The 11M CB band of 23 AM channels was supposed to be inexpensive, requiring siimple licensing (but licensing). Radios could be made relatively inexpensively Heathkit had a 27M version of the Sixer/Tener. The radios were tube design with CRYSTAL control on transmit (and sometimes receive).

Shortly after, solid state happened, and synthesizers that could cover the whole band appeared. It wasn't too soon that licensing became 'too much of a burden' and the FCC washed its hands of the whole matter. CB became a craze.

A few renegades starting putting up beam antennas (not originally envisioned) and tall towers, running KW amplifiers and modified ham radio equipment (duh, most of the ham equipment of the day had 11 meter capability built in!), and starting using places in between for their conversations. LIcense? We don't need no stinking license was the cry. Soon, there wasn't even a form in the box to fill out to send in - no licensing at all.

GE and other manufacturers pushed for a VHF/UHF band. Unfortunately, 900 MHz required repeaters to do much and GE proposed community repeaters along the lines of the business "shared mobile repeaters". HOwever, the FCC could not figure out how to control who could put in what repeaters where (it wanted unlimited ability to construct and operate repeaters which would have been a disaster, and naturally radio businessmen wanted their group, whatever it was, to control it and 'rent out usage' like cellular today to individuals, and the manufacturers wanted access for GE, Motorola, etc, national systems. It never happened because of that. Cost would not have been a big factor for equipment, but the FCC could not see anyone paying a monthly repeater fee. (duh, so it then created cellular, and 'Nextel" type systems, which is exactly what would have happened at 900 Mhz CB).

220 "CB" was another attempt by manufacturers to foisf off ACSB technology which never went anywhere and is dying on the vine. Certain manufacturers with patent rights wanted to tie up the entire 220 band (they got the lower 2 MHz to barely use today) with ACSB equipment. Never happened. They too wanted to build repeaters and have montly user charges for folks, and other groups wanted people to be able to build their own gigantic systems.

There are tens of milllions who likely use CB at times and maybe a million or two still on CB. There are also likely the better part of a half million illegal CB pirates. Around the world they are known as 'freebanders'. I'm not sure why, since it isn't free, and the equipment is the same as ham equipment, and now you don't even have to know code for a ham license. The just think they are getting away with something.

So CB wound up where it was because hams didn't use the band, it was mixed in between other channels (radio control channels) and other uses. The other uses went away, the radio control became too dangerous there (interference from CBs), so now the band is a vast wasteland.

KC5CSG

01-26-2008, 06:43 PM

I love CB. It's the one radio service where you can go just to kick back and have some fun. Best thing the FCC ever did was create this service.

Jerry

w4brf

01-26-2008, 06:50 PM

I would not Believe 11meters is waste land ,there is a lot of money Being made every day off of that old c b Band :)

w4brf

01-26-2008, 07:41 PM

waste land - well there have Been a lot of money spent over the years Because of that old 11meter Band called the c b band ,:)

F5C140

01-26-2008, 07:52 PM

I love CB. It's the one radio service where you can go just to kick back and have some fun. Best thing the FCC ever did was create this service.

Jerry

I agree. In fact last night the DX was rolling in on 11m SSB and the lower portions of the Freeband as well. There was no foul language, no keydowns, no music, etc just ordinary people having conversations and making contacts over HF radio. It was a very pleasant evening. It's not always that civil of course but neither is 75m at times either.

Bill.

wa9cwx

01-26-2008, 08:57 PM

I agree. In fact last night the DX was rolling in on 11m SSB and the lower portions of the Freeband as well. There was no foul language, no keydowns, no music, etc just ordinary people having conversations and making contacts over HF radio. It was a very pleasant evening. It's not always that civil of course but neither is 75m at times either.

Bill.

What a lovely thing....Yes, the joys of using the 'Freeband'... A group of frequencies set aside for all to peacefully enjoy.
Intelligent, friendly folk, just enjoying the fruits of Nature's Ionosphere...

.....without the need of any stinkin license. :p

Illegal operating is illegal operating, by ANY name..
And there IS no such thing as a 'FREEband'.

Those are stolen frequencies, operated by interlopers, who are breaking the law. Period. NO OTHER explanation is needed.

ab8yy

01-27-2008, 12:36 AM

Not the answer, there was a fairly large amount of illegal operation on CB when it started on 11 meters. In 1957, the FCC had to shuffle allocations in the high freq. spectrum and CB lost 6 MHz from it's 460 Mhz allocation.
Simultaneously, 26.96 to 27.23 was reassigned to the "new" CB. Hams vigorously protested but they had to vacate the range. It was entered in the FCC books on July 3, 1958 and opened for use on Sept. 11http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif 1958.
No...lack of knowledge of sunspots, or decisions during sunspot minimum...not the answer.
The late 50's and early 60's were absolutely spectacular for propagation.
A stellar cycle maximum. An immediate, giant, nationwide CB partyline and guess what? CB AND Ham gear readily available to use on it! A great place to operate a "sort of ham station" without formalities of getting a ham license. Regulations were ignored from the get-go and CB grew very quickly. The FCC was naive and had never had to face a lot of illegal operation before. Who would dare? Hams? Broadcasters? No.
Ahar mates! Bootleggers sez I!!

Actually, early day CBers DID in fact, follow the law. Almost everyone had a license and almost everyone went by part 95. They were IDing properly and although some used beams, they did not use them illegally. I was one in the early 60's as was almost all of my relatives. We used CB for the purposes it was intended for - family communications. It was cheaper than making a long distance phone call if your family lived two or three towns away. There has been talk about big beam antennas, those were not illegal. They height of the antenna was regulated but not the gain of that antenna.

It wasn't until a few outlaws found out that they could build or purchase amplifiers and talk longer distances that things started going awry. There is also nothing illegal even today about informing someone that there is a cop "smokey" on the side of the road running radar. Although this has become the cornerstone to trucker use of CB today.

My guess is besides the reasons for the lack of ham use of 11 meters already mentioned (diathermy and so on), 11 meters is not a multiple/harmonicly related to the rest of the HF bands of that time period - 80/40/20/10, and so in many cases a separate antenna or good tuner is needed for 11 meters. This could have been another reason that this band wasn't used as much as 10 was. If you think about it, it's porpagation probably isn't much different from 10 and if someone has a good antenna for 40 and/or 20, it will most likely work much better on 10 than 11 and without a tuner. Obviously, it depends on the antenna. I'm just thinking this might have been another good reason for the lack of use of 11.

Steve

ab8yy

01-27-2008, 12:39 AM

What a lovely thing....Yes, the joys of using the 'Freeband'... A group of frequencies set aside for all to peacefully enjoy.
Intelligent, friendly folk, just enjoying the fruits of Nature's Ionosphere...

.....without the need of any stinkin license. :p

Illegal operating is illegal operating, by ANY name..
And there IS no such thing as a 'FREEband'.

Those are stolen frequencies, operated by interlopers, who are breaking the law. Period. NO OTHER explanation is needed.

Funny I was thinking the same thing. And, of course, you mention CB and Freebanders and there are a few select people here who just jump into the thick of things to show why they shouldn't be hams. No names mentioned, but you know who you are.

Steve

KC9JIQ

01-27-2008, 12:40 AM

I love CB. It's the one radio service where you can go just to kick back and have some fun. Best thing the FCC ever did was create this service.

Jerry

Jerry is Right.

N2RJ

01-27-2008, 01:01 AM

N8GAV

01-27-2008, 01:02 AM

I have never heard anything on the 11 meter band that made any sence. I had one tell me "You need to have high SWR'S or your radio don't work right" and around here the big thing seems to be putting rock salt into a 3 inch PVC pipe in the ground around 4 ft long then driving in your ground rod....?? I have some old tube type CB's Browning,Tram,and Demco that were given to me and restored for the fun of it,but I have never wanted to play around on the air with them.

wa9cwx

01-27-2008, 01:24 AM

Jerry is Right.

Of course he is.

The wise leader guiding the neophytes through the mysteries of the ether.

Wisdom and eager young minds, in mutual accord, advancing the art and science of things CBish.... :D

w4brf

01-27-2008, 01:26 AM

N8GAV

01-27-2008, 01:30 AM

( I would like to get a Demco m 10 SWR meter have you seen anything like that for sale , thanks Bill w4brf

No I have not seen one but I will keep an eye out for one for you Bill
Hank

w4brf

01-27-2008, 01:33 AM

No I have not seen one but I will keep an eye out for one for you Bill
Hank( ok thank you sir ,Bill w4brf

kc7gnm

01-27-2008, 02:36 AM

What a lovely thing....Yes, the joys of using the 'Freeband'... A group of frequencies set aside for all to peacefully enjoy.
Intelligent, friendly folk, just enjoying the fruits of Nature's Ionosphere...

.....without the need of any stinkin license. :p

Illegal operating is illegal operating, by ANY name..
And there IS no such thing as a 'FREEband'.

Those are stolen frequencies, operated by interlopers, who are breaking the law. Period. NO OTHER explanation is needed.

Exactly. If you look at the master freq chart those frequencies belong to government agencies. I am willing to bet if they start to interfere with them they will get a knock on the door.

KC5CSG

01-27-2008, 04:56 AM

No Ryan, you only assume I enjoy those things. Assuming is an act of a desperate man too ignorant to understand his percieved enemy. So, keep right on supposing my friend. Now, I do enjoy a good porn site any day. So, if you have any good URL's then by all means, send them my way.

Jerry

Uh, I think Jerry likes the foul language, keydowns, sex talk and music...

kd8hho

01-27-2008, 08:42 AM

man i remember my days on the cb radio...
every curse word known to man
idiots
3KW dirty amps
daily splatter from channel 6,11,20,26
every night piss matches.
more idiots.
dead keys/jammers
music players
more idiots..
im glad i left cb and got a licence...

N2RJ

01-27-2008, 01:48 PM

No Ryan, you only assume I enjoy those things. Assuming is an act of a desperate man too ignorant to understand his percieved enemy. So, keep right on supposing my friend. Now, I do enjoy a good porn site any day. So, if you have any good URL's then by all means, send them my way.

Jerry

Jerry, with your numerous references to pornography and us hams who are "too uptight" I merely put 2 and 2 together...

Not desparation at all. Just calling it as I see it.

KC5CSG

01-27-2008, 02:49 PM

Your logic is valid only in your own mind. Just like some of your past posts. You are funny though. Keep it up please. The more time I spend laughing at your logic the less time I'm looking at porn.

Jerry

Jerry, with your numerous references to pornography and us hams who are "too uptight" I merely put 2 and 2 together...

Not desparation at all. Just calling it as I see it.

N2RJ

01-27-2008, 02:54 PM

Your logic is valid only in your own mind. Just like some of your past posts. You are funny though. Keep it up please. The more time I spend laughing at your logic the less time I'm looking at porn.

Jerry

Jerry, I win. You have no argument. Keep on truckin' maybe you'll make a point someday. :D

KC5CSG

01-27-2008, 03:18 PM

Okay, for arugment's sake, lets say you won. So, what is the prize? The reason I'm asking is if I'm suposed to FEEL a loss I would like to know what it is I'm missing.

You haven't won crap freeloader. I have stated from day one I have no agenda. So if you think long enough about it, how can a person with no agenda be at a loss in an argument? How can a person with no agenda have a point? I have no point to make. After all I don't come in here to CONVERT anyone to my way of thinking. I'm here to call stupid people stupid. QRZ is a great place for that. There seems to be an abundance of stupid people here. There is only one thing funnier than a stupid person. That would be a person that is stupid thinking they're smart....................hehehehe

Jerry

Jerry, I win. You have no argument. Keep on truckin' maybe you'll make a point someday. :D

n5wrx

01-27-2008, 03:32 PM

However, this is a serious question, about some history. I wonder why the FCC decided to use the 11 meter band when they set up the Citizens Band.

I think you will find that the FCC does NOT regulate the rest of the world.
There is a world radio spectrum committee that meets and agrees upon band plans for armature radio.
It was not the FCC alone that decided on where the CB band would be but rather a decision made by other countries as well.

ab8yy

01-27-2008, 05:10 PM

Jerry is Right.

And now we hear from Jerry's follower/sidekick.

steve

ab8yy

01-27-2008, 05:18 PM

There is only one thing funnier than a stupid person. That would be a person that is stupid thinking they're smart....................hehehehe

Jerry

Agenda or no agenda - that was the funniest thing I have seen so far. And I suppose that makes you .... well, you said it right this time.

Steve

WA2ZDY

01-27-2008, 06:33 PM

Fellas, calm down the hostility and senseless stuff.

N8GAV, sounds like fun working on the CB stuff. I fixed my share of it in the 70s, largely as a project beefiting my high school radio club. We fixed CBs for students in the school for $10 a job. Back then many of the radios were still quality and the ham club raked in a lot of $$$.

Since you have those rigs in good shape, why not put them on 10m? That way you could continue to enjoy them rather than have them as shelf queens. I know I could enjoy a whiteface Johnson Messenger on 29.1 AM!

N8GAV

01-27-2008, 06:57 PM

[QUOTE=WA2ZDY;1114938]Fellas, calm down the hostility and senseless stuff.

N8GAV, sounds like fun working on the CB stuff. I fixed my share of it in the 70s, largely as a project beefiting my high school radio club. We fixed CBs for students in the school for $10 a job. Back then many of the radios were still quality and the ham club raked in a lot of $$$.

Since you have those rigs in good shape, why not put them on 10m? That way you could continue to enjoy them rather than have them as shelf queens. I know I could enjoy a whiteface Johnson Messenger on 29.1 AM![/QUOTE

You know Chris I thought about that with a Browning Mark IV that I have,the PLL chip in it will make go to 28.775 on TX the RX go's to 28.600.But that would be kinda "Redneck"sounding hearing the old Browning "Ping":p The Trams I have are Tittan II's 23 channels same with with the Demco Satilite 23 channel.

KC5CSG

01-27-2008, 08:01 PM

Let me break it down a little for you. I have no agenda, no point, no real view yet I like to participate in arguments. That doesn't make me stupid. That makes me an instigator. It's amazing how this "stupid" person here has led so many around in the past. What does that say about the people that were led around? I can only hope your only mental response is "not much". I would hate to think you would try to justify the actions and responses I've pulled from the dolts in this forum.

I think Morse Code is an IQ reduction tool. Apparently most that know it are as bright as a burned out light bulb spray painted black.

Jerry

Agenda or no agenda - that was the funniest thing I have seen so far. And I suppose that makes you .... well, you said it right this time.

Steve

k7mh

01-27-2008, 08:01 PM

Fellas, calm down the hostility and senseless stuff.
Really. You can't even get a bunch of hams talking about some aspect of CB before it turns into channel 19 on a Friday night.:(

It was not the FCC alone that decided on where the CB band would be but rather a decision made by other countries as well.
That is not the case here. Additionally, the FCC acted on the issuance of those weird early licenses for CB on their own and got in hot water eventually for using call sign blocks not available to them for US callsigns. They then changed to the KAA-1234 format to comply.

Actually, early day CBers DID in fact, follow the law. Almost everyone had a license and almost everyone went by part 95. They were IDing properly and although some used beams, they did not use them illegally. I was one in the early 60's as was almost all of my relatives. We used CB for the purposes it was intended for - family communications. It was cheaper than making a long distance phone call if your family lived two or three towns away. There has been talk about big beam antennas, those were not illegal. They height of the antenna was regulated but not the gain of that antenna.

It wasn't until a few outlaws found out that they could build or purchase amplifiers and talk longer distances that things started going awry. There is also nothing illegal even today about informing someone that there is a cop "smokey" on the side of the road running radar. Although this has become the cornerstone to trucker use of CB today.
Sri OM not entirely factual.
On December 7 1959 The FCC issued bulletin #81482 to the licensees of CB which was only around for only a little more than a year!! It was hoped that the CBer's just did not understand the purpose of CB and if it was more clearly explained to them they would fall into compliance. It is a rather lengthy bulletin so I am not about to type it all in here! It was just the first of others to follow. To the FCC, CB was a train wreck from the beginning. They did use callsigns early on as there were CB callbooks much like ours and using callsigns made it easy to send QSL cards like we always have. When they quit publishing callbooks for CB in the mid sixties or so, the "skip handles" and PO Box number exchanges became commonplace.

In terms of beams, it is usually the case that Cb antennas are vertically polarized other than for shooting skip. If you just want to extend the local range of communications on CB, staying vertical is the way to go as most everyone else is vertical with mobiles and groundplanes on CB. In most cases, witha 20 foot restriction on overall height of antenna including supporting tower or poles, a vertical beam that is going to have elements approx. 18 feet is kind of problematic to put up and stay within the rules.
Here is an excerpt from part 95 that is more current. As I recall, in the older rules it was more restrictive without the "either" stuff included in "D" but I am not sure of that anymore.
A} "Antenna" means the radiating system (for transmitting, receiving or both) and the structure holding it up (tower, pole or mast). It also means everything else attached to the radiating system and the structure.
{B} If your antenna is mounted on a hand-held portable unit, none of the following limitations apply;
{C} If your antenna is installed at a fixed location (whether receiving, transmitting or both) it must comply with EITHER one of the following:
[1] The highest point must not be more than 20 feet (6.10 meters) higher than the highest point of the building or tree on which it is mounted; or
[2] The highest point must not be more than 60 feet (18.3 meters) above the ground.

w4brf

01-27-2008, 10:32 PM

Well I think they chose it because they wanted 11meters ,and you got to admit, it did give some hams something to cry about. then and now .:D

N2RJ

01-27-2008, 10:48 PM

Okay, for arugment's sake, lets say you won. So, what is the prize? The reason I'm asking is if I'm suposed to FEEL a loss I would like to know what it is I'm missing.

You haven't won crap freeloader. I have stated from day one I have no agenda. So if you think long enough about it, how can a person with no agenda be at a loss in an argument? How can a person with no agenda have a point? I have no point to make. After all I don't come in here to CONVERT anyone to my way of thinking. I'm here to call stupid people stupid. QRZ is a great place for that. There seems to be an abundance of stupid people here. There is only one thing funnier than a stupid person. That would be a person that is stupid thinking they're smart....................hehehehe

Jerry

There's no prize, just making you type more nonsense on QRZ is fine enough for me.