The Folly of Electronic Voting Machines

[n2nh]

Quote[/b] ]As the primaries start in New Hampshire this week and roll on through the next few months, the erratic behavior of voting technology will once again find itself under a microscope. In the last three election cycles, touch-screen machines have become one of the most mysterious and divisive elements in modern electoral politics. Introduced after the 2000 hanging-chad debacle, the machines were originally intended to add clarity to election results. But in hundreds of instances, the result has been precisely the opposite: they fail unpredictably, and in extremely strange ways; voters report that their choices “flip” from one candidate to another before their eyes; machines crash or begin to count backward; votes simply vanish. (In the 80-person town of Waldenburg, Ark., touch-screen machines tallied zero votes for one mayoral candidate in 2006 — even though he’s pretty sure he voted for himself.) Most famously, in the November 2006 Congressional election in Sarasota, Fla., touch-screen machines recorded an 18,000-person “undervote” for a race decided by fewer than 400 votes.

The earliest critiques of digital voting booths came from the fringe — disgruntled citizens and scared-senseless computer geeks — but the fears have now risen to the highest levels of government. One by one, states are renouncing the use of touch-screen voting machines. California and Florida decided to get rid of their electronic voting machines last spring, and last month, Colorado decertified about half of its touch-screen devices. Also last month, Jennifer Brunner, the Ohio secretary of state, released a report in the wake of the Cuyahoga crashes arguing that touch-screens “may jeopardize the integrity of the voting process.” She was so worried she is now forcing Cuyahoga to scrap its touch-screen machines and go back to paper-based voting — before the Ohio primary, scheduled for March 4. Senator Bill Nelson, a Democrat of Florida, and Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, Democrat of Rhode Island, have even sponsored a bill that would ban the use of touch-screen machines across the country by 2012.

In Diebold We Trust. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/magazine/06Vote-t.html?_r=1&ref=politics&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin)

[al2i]

Billions wasted on total Trash. (http://www.fec.gov/hava/law_ext.txt)

[K3XR]

Thanks to the DEMS for the voting push, after the 2000 election, be careful what you ask for.....

[w0aew]

Quote[/b] (K3XR @ Jan. 14 2008,10:04)]Thanks to the DEMS for the voting push, after the 2000 election, be careful what you ask for.....
Yeah. Honest elections.

[K1CJS]

Didn't you hear? The electronic machine 'push' came from the Bush camp after the 2000 elections. They knew the machines were going to screw up, but they took a chance they'd screw up in Bush's favor--and guess what? They did, and we got four more years of Dubya!!

[ab1ga]

No conspiracy necessary, just the typical behavior when silly people mix with IT.

Objective: Try to avoid the confusion caused by errors in an inferior vote-recording system.

Existing alternative: Optically read ballots marked by hand, a technology well-known to everyone who's ever filled out those standardized test forms with the little ovals. Forty year old technology, proven track record.

*** IT specialists enter the room ***

We can use touch screens because paper is icky.

No we can't perform recounts, but they won't be needed, we're using a computer!

Inability to recount violates election law and deprives candidates of independent checks? We're using a computer!

Is the computer reliable? Yes, because we're skilled professionals, and it's a computer!

Open Source approach to hardware and software?
It may be a crucial part of the mechanism of American democracy, but rather than keep the design open and verifiable by everyone, and enable competition to supply the individual jurisdictions, we'd rather blindly trust a company to do the right thing, in the right way, without any way to check what they've done.

It will cost a bajillion dollars, but it will be worth it, because it's a computer!

[al2i]

Electronic rigging has already been attempted.

Testimony. (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DzBI33kOiKc)

[KG4JYD]

I have read that Ron Paul actually came into 3rd place in NH after the hand recount but I don't have a link to verify this (yet).

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (KG4JYD @ Jan. 14 2008,16:18)]I have read that Ron Paul actually came into 3rd place in NH after the hand recount but I don't have a link to verify this (yet).
Obama is the one with a problem. Paul would have come in fourth at best.

Something to keep in mind however, is that Paul must not merely lose, he must be completely and utterly destroyed -- lest his ideas live on.

[n4sva]

We should go back to more reliable systems, like the Palm Beach County punch card System....at least there is a paper trail, right? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif


I imagine the CEO of Diebold, which I have heard the Zed tin-foil hatters say as being a partisan Republican, purposely plants and implants planted firmware to automatically subtract votes on machines he knows will go to Democrat districts, right?

Maybe we should go to the South African voting system: just a paper ballot w/pictures and a check off box.

[KG4JYD]

My parents work for the Seminole County Election Commission in Seminole County Florida and have told me many many interesting things about the process of voting.

[K5FH]

The problem is not the medium used to cast and count votes, necessarily, but the honesty and integrity of the counters of the votes.

The situation where the certified vote totals in a couple of NH counties showed Ron Paul with NO votes, then some voters say that they did, indeed, vote for Paul, raises grave doubts about the system.

The aggregate number of Paul and Kucinich votes might be statistically insignificant but that isn't the point. #It isn't up to the vote counters to determine what is and isn't "significant" - their job is to accurately count ALL votes cast.

Paul and Kucinich are doing the system a service by demanding recounts even if those recounts won't do them much good in the overall results.

[KC9IUX]

They can see it from way over there. (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7794)

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (KC9IUX @ Jan. 15 2008,05:18)]They can see it from way over there. (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7794)
The taxpayer's were looted again, this time by Diebold.

A friend of mine who held political office for about 20 years received so many trinkets that he rented a storage unit to store all of the crap. He has hats, jackets, umbrellas, perhaps a thousand or more mugs, frisbees, golfballs, posters, etc. He plans to sell all of the logo stuff on eBay someday.

[kb2vxa]

We all use computers, can you HONESTLY say you trust them? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[KC9IUX]

Nope.

[KG4JYD]

Quote[/b] (K5FH @ Jan. 14 2008,19:55)]Paul and Kucinich are doing the system a service by demanding recounts even if those recounts won't do them much good in the overall results.
I dont think Ron Paul is asking for a recount

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (KG4JYD @ Jan. 15 2008,21:55)]Quote[/b] (K5FH @ Jan. 14 2008,19:55)]Paul and Kucinich are doing the system a service by demanding recounts even if those recounts won't do them much good in the overall results.
I dont think Ron Paul is asking for a recount
Obama should, but he doesn't need the negative publicity, so poor Kucinich has to be the token "kook" again.

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (KG4JYD @ Jan. 15 2008,21:55)]Quote[/b] (K5FH @ Jan. 14 2008,19:55)]Paul and Kucinich are doing the system a service by demanding recounts even if those recounts won't do them much good in the overall results.
I dont think Ron Paul is asking for a recount
Ron Paul's Letter. (http://www.bbvforums.org/cgi-bin/forums/board-auth.cgi?file=/8/71301.html)

[KG4JYD]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Jan. 16 2008,04:12)]Quote[/b] (KG4JYD @ Jan. 15 2008,21:55)]Quote[/b] (K5FH @ Jan. 14 2008,19:55)]Paul and Kucinich are doing the system a service by demanding recounts even if those recounts won't do them much good in the overall results.
I dont think Ron Paul is asking for a recount
Ron Paul's Letter. (http://www.bbvforums.org/cgi-bin/forums/board-auth.cgi?file=/8/71301.html)
Thanks, I couldn't find that quickly. I appreciate you posting it.

[n2nh]

But, but what about the conspiracy to withhold 31 votes from Ron Paul? I mean with those votes, instead of fifth, he would've come in err... well fifth!

[KG4JYD]

Quote[/b] (n2nh @ Jan. 16 2008,11:44)]But, but what about the conspiracy to withhold 31 votes from Ron Paul?
Who said anything about conspiracy?

It was most likely typical governmental incompetence. All the more reason Ron Paul should be elected so that the government can be minimized.

[vk6zgo]

I honestly can't see why you don't use printed paper ballots & a pencil like we do in Australia.
OK.you'll say that with your huge population it wouldn't be practical.
The thing is you probably already have a proportionally equal number of people working in your electoral system,fixing stuffed up "chad " systems etc.
The punched paper system is early '60s high tech & you obviously used pencil & paper before that time.

I don't know what other countries with populations closer to your own use,but the system we use is simple & effective.

Of course it also helps to have nearly 100% of voters participating in elections.

Voting is compulsory in Australia,& you get fined if you don't (without a good excuse).
The fines are very small,but seem to serve their purpose.

No doubt the thought of compulsory voting will give you all an attack of the vapours (Shock! Horror!) .
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
73 VK6ZGO

[KC9IUX]

Quote[/b] ]Voting is compulsory in Australia,& you get fined if you don't (without a good excuse).


That's awful, voting is a duty, but uniformed voters are best left at home.

[KC9IUX]

http://www.comics.com/creators/dinetteset/archive/images/dinetteset20366711080115.gif

[n2nh]

Quote[/b] (KG4JYD @ Jan. 16 2008,19:48)]Quote[/b] (n2nh @ Jan. 16 2008,11:44)]But, but what about the conspiracy to withhold 31 votes from Ron Paul?
Who said anything about conspiracy?

It was most likely typical governmental incompetence. All the more reason Ron Paul should be elected so that the government can be minimized.
So, there wasn't a conspiracy?? I see a split in the Ranks of the Loyal Order of Ron the Magnificent Wizard of ZO.

Regarding the reaction of RP cultists regarding those same 31 votes:

Quote[/b] ]Others, though, were mean-spirited, labeling Call as treasonous. They accused her of committing fraud. They wanted her locked up. They smelled a conspiracy, a plot to keep their candidate down. They misidentified themselves, saying they were from the media. They would not listen to reason, Call said, that an honest mistake, while worth noting, had taken place, and nothing more.

Then there's this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=or5mf_uvsFI&feature=related)

How about Lew? He says there is!

KONSPIRACY! YES! (http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/018629.html)

Lotsa Ron Paul conspiracies out there. There's one in every state. In every town. Around every corner!!!

CONSPIRACIES!! Here, there, EVERYWHERE!! (http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=conspiracy+against+ron+paul&btnG=Google+Search)

That's who. It seems there's a disagreement as to the conspiracy theory. Can this schism in the Ronnettes be healed?? WW"RP"D?

http://i7.tinypic.com/731mz6e.jpg

[K3XR]

When it comes to voting "folly" you can depend on the DEMS.

http://online.wsj.com/article....ntaries (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120053210112396131.html?mod=opinion_main_comment aries)

[al2i]

Left-authoritarians are the most evil people I have met.

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Jan. 18 2008,08:40)]Left-authoritarians are the most evil people I have met.
You've been sheltered.

[n2nh]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Jan. 18 2008,07:40)]Left-authoritarians are the most evil people I have met.
Most racists feel the truth is evil.

[vk6zgo]

Quote[/b] (KC9IUX @ Jan. 17 2008,19:22)]Quote[/b] ]Voting is compulsory in Australia,& you get fined if you don't (without a good excuse).


That's awful, voting is a duty, but uniformed voters are best left at home.
Why do you want to leave UNIFORMED voters home?
I see no problem with Cops, Boy Scout leaders, Soldiers,Sailors & Airman voting.

However,if you meant UNINFORMED voters,how do you know that the ones that do vote in your system are informed?

You don't have any sort of "no-code "voting test .

Most voters in Australia because they have to vote take the time to become informed.

If you don't know anything & don't want to participate,you can :-
(1) Pay the small fine,

(2) Turn up & get your name marked off the list,go into the booth with your ballot paper, don't #mark anything on it,or write in "Mickey Mouse" or do whatever you like,then drop it in the ballot box. This is what is called
an "Informal " vote


The beauty of (2) if you are a concientious objector or are seriously stupid,or whatever,is that you don't get fined.Also as it is a Secret Ballot nobody knows that you are one of the above groups of people.

Most voters cast a valid vote however,.

Our Founding Fathers were cynical old sods,& they believed that if voting wasn't compulsory,various interested parties would use physical force to prevent people that may vote a particular way from voting .
If you have to vote it's a lot harder for people to keep you away(without being caught by the law).

73 VK6ZGO

[KA8DKT]

Quote[/b] (K3XR @ Jan. 18 2008,08:31)]When it comes to voting "folly" you can depend on the DEMS.

http://online.wsj.com/article....ntaries (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120053210112396131.html?mod=opinion_main_comment aries)
This is not a news article, it is commentary, and is even labeled as such.

Fund also has some of his information mixed up, not atypical of his commentaries.

-gary

[KA8DKT]

"Our Founding Fathers were cynical old sods, they believed that if voting wasn't compulsory, various interested parties would use physical force to prevent people that may vote a particular way from voting .
If you have to vote it's a lot harder for people to keep you away(without being caught by the law).
Probably not a bad system, all in all."

In America, we have a day or two off work to feast, overindulge, and watch football. *The first day of the year is a day off work. *But Election Day is not a day off work. *Duh!!??!!

Of course, the priviledged in America can just take an hour or two from the office and go vote. *But a vast number of people do not have that luxury and often many of these people cannot vote because they cannot adjust their work schedule to do so, even with extended polling hours.

Now there are those who might suggest that this is just one of the subtle ways of keeping the "uneducated" from voting. *Others might suggest that if you want to vote you will find a way.

But still, it amazes me that we have no real legal provision to allow everyone a chance to get away from work without penalty to vote. *It also amazes me that fiddling the vote or vote count has so little punishment associated with it. *When is the last time you have heard of someone getting sent to jail for vote fraud? *Or shot, like a traitor, for fiddling the vote?

The voting process is the very foundation and basis of our freedom, yet it is treated with such little real regard or respect for its importance.

-gary

[KC9IUX]

Quote[/b] ]Why do you want to leave UNIFORMED voters home?
I see no problem with Cops, Boy Scout leaders, Soldiers,Sailors & Airman voting.



LOL @ the lost "n".

[KC9IUX]

Quote[/b] ]When is the last time you have heard of someone getting sent to jail for vote fraud? Or shot, like a traitor, for fiddling the vote?



How seldom is anyone in authority held criminally responsible?

[KA8DKT]

Not anywhere near often enough.

-gary

[n2nh]

I have read that Ron Paul actually came into 3rd place in NH after the hand recount but I don't have a link to verify this (yet).

Got one now?