300 mHz Beam Stops Cars Dead

[k4kyv]

Electromagnetic radiation @ 300 mHz can be used to fry the electrical systems in cars, stopping them dead in their tracks.

Emitted from a rooftop device, the radiation could be used by law enforcement officers to put an end to dangerous car chases or by military personnel as a non-lethal way of disabling vehicles that get too close for comfort.

One error in the article: radiation @ 300 mHz is not microwave.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/11/29/engine-car-stop.html

[W1RKW]

Maybe they meant 300GHz.

[w8gtf]

Better hope the guy shooting is a good marksman. It would kind of suck for them to miss & fry the wrong car.

I read about something similar afew years back. Basically it was a pad (think spike strip) that when you drove over it, it let off some form of EMR that fried the electrical system.

I'm also at a loss as to how to disable a vehicle by targeting the light bulbs, lug nuts, and frame bolts (how many cars have frames anymore?).

[KW4MW]

First of all it ain't that easy. #Even with highly directional antennae you need to put a heck of a lot of rf on target. # #Generally speaking cw energy is not nearly as distructive as pulsed energy - that is to say rf pulses with very high peak power and very short dv/dt rise times so as to induce distructive spikes into the electronics system. ##

Quote[/b] ]To disable cars, the device first generates energy that is amplified using a generator. Well obviously this journalist is a liberal arts major trying to cover a scientific event. #What typically happens in these types of devices is that a quantity of energy is stored over a "long" period of time - say 10 millisecs and then released as rf radiation in as short a time as a few nanosecs. #PRR = 100/s

#Quote[/b] ]In tests on four vehicles, the researchers were able to disable cars from 10 to 50 feet away. That's not very heartening to someone that has an 3500 pound auto approaching them at 80 mph (117 fps). #Something about that mv product that bothers me.

And no, 300 mhz is wrong. # 3000 mhz (3ghz) is a lot more practical.

Quote[/b] ]The higher the frequency of the radiation, the more directed the beam, which allows the user to aim the energy at vulnerable car parts, such as light bulb filaments, lug nuts, frame bolts, or windshield antenna. Yeah, I can just see those lug nuts getting hot and dripping off the wheel.

Quote[/b] ]Tatoian thinks that with the proper funding, Eureka Aerospace can shrink the device in less than two years to a 50-pound appliance that looks like a plasma television and can disable cars from 600 feet away. Which means that the device can be used for very short bursts or they have another 300 - 400 pounds of heat exchanger hidden away. #

Sorry, it sounds good and I'm sure that they'll get a government grant but there are just to many physics problems to solve. #To zap a car 600 feet away, even with a highly directional antenna will take a lot of power. #There is also a limit of the amount of rf that can be radiated into the atmosphere - 1.7 Mv/m if I recall correctly.

[K8ERV]

Tell me if I am wrong (never happens), but I don't think the FCC defines Microwave. Some say it is when you go from coax to waveguide.

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

[K8MHZ]

Quote[/b] (K8ERV @ Dec. 30 2007,04:34)]Tell me if I am wrong (never happens), but I don't think the FCC defines Microwave. Some say it is when you go from coax to waveguide.

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo
The FCC may not, but Wiki does:

Quote[/b] ]Microwaves are electromagnetic waves with wavelengths shorter than one meter and longer than one millimeter, or frequencies between 300 megahertz and 300 gigahertz.

Also, as usual, the media has the story screwed up. Here is a link to the technology which only disables electrical control systems and has no effect on things like bolts and lug nuts. The frequency range is 350 MHz to 1.35 GHz.

http://eurekaaerospace.com/nlads.php

Here is a link with a block diagram in which a 2000 watt alternator charging a 10 micro farad capacitor supplies power to a 10,800 watt power supply.

http://eurekaaerospace.com/hpems.php

Note that the web page is over 2 years old and hasn't been updated.

The company also claims to be developing radar that can see images through walls:

http://eurekaaerospace.com/impsar.php

[ve2nsm]

MW raises good points. What's the maximum power you can send in a tight beam before heating up the atmosphere too.

Also, what about the dangers of aiming RF at a car which metal body can reflect and scatter the energy towards other devices and/or people and create collateral damage.

What about the driver... do we fry him too?

[WA6MHZ]

To hit a car at any distance, even a few car lengths with that great of power would require incredible ERP! They would have to have a super microwave dish on top to zap the car, with probably a megawatt fed into the dish. This signal would not only fry the car, but all the occupants and anyone else in the beam. Now, having been on many 10 Ghz contests I know the extreme difficulty aligning a dish to set it on a specific point. There is no possibility this could be done mobile at police chase speeds. The ONLY possible way it could ever work is if there was a secret receiver built into each car receiving on 300M/3G/300G or whatever freq that would cause a self destruct in the computer control. Is there such a device built into car computers??? If so, then why have no Ham transmitters set it off. I think its all hogwash. The more you know about Microwaves, antennas or even RF, the more impossible it becomes!!!

[ve2nsm]

Quote[/b] (wa6mhz @ Dec. 30 2007,14:24)]I think its all hogwash. The more you know about Microwaves, antennas or even RF, the more impossible it becomes!!!
They said it was used to disable cars from 10' to 50' away... I don't know, 50' away is still pretty close in a high speed chase. And if they did it, they don't say what happened to the theoretical innocent by-stander.

[K8MHZ]

Quote[/b] ]Is there such a device built into car computers???

I know Chrysler was working on such a device, but I don't know how far they got with it.

Also, with systems like On Star which can take control of vehicle functions like un-locking the doors, I don't see much of a leap in technology to be able to shut the ignitions or fuel systems down.

There is also another issue not covered. When the vehicle's engine shuts off it greatly impedes the ability to steer or stop the vehicle making it a safety hazard for bystanders and other vehicles. When I heard about Chrysler's system it was said that it was to first be tried in Vipers and the police would be able to remotely take control of the engine control system and be able to force the car to slow down to 30 mph without shutting the engine off. That, to me, sounds like a much more viable system.

[ve2nsm]

Quote[/b] (k8mhz @ Dec. 30 2007,14:39)]Quote[/b] ]Is there such a device built into car computers???

I know Chrysler was working on such a device, but I don't know how far they got with it.

Also, with systems like On Star which can take control of vehicle functions like un-locking the doors, I don't see much of a leap in technology to be able to shut the ignitions or fuel systems down.

There is also another issue not covered. When the vehicle's engine shuts off it greatly impedes the ability to steer or stop the vehicle making it a safety hazard for bystanders and other vehicles. When I heard about Chrysler's system it was said that it was to first be tried in Vipers and the police would be able to remotely take control of the engine control system and be able to force the car to slow down to 30 mph without shutting the engine off. That, to me, sounds like a much more viable system.
Big brother driving in your car.
Guess we will have to revamp those old chevy 350s' Nobody will have a remote control for my rochester quadra-jet http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KW4MW]

Quote[/b] ]What's the maximum power you can send in a tight beam before heating up the atmosphere too.

Darn - I've tossed or given away most of my reference material. #But I've worked on some HPM projects and I recall that when we put out too much rf the air surrounding the antenna would ionize and the power would be dissipated within a few inches of the elements. #i.e. we were heating air. #The number that I recall at where the surrounding air would ionize at sea level was about 1.7Mv/m although such factors as density, dust and water vapor would tilt that number a bit as well as the antenna element (or electrode) configurations. #Obviously breakdown would occur at a higher value in dry desert air and at a much lower value at high altitudes. # That number can be extrapolated from any good text on high voltage techniques.

See Paschen's Law. and the Paschen Curve (http://www.duniway.com/images/pdf/pg/Paschen-Curve.pdf) ##A torr is equal to 1/760 standard atmospheric pressure, approximately 1 mmHg.

Also of interest is this IEEE Sprectrum Article on high-power microwave (HPM) weapons (http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/print/1543)

[kg4kww]

Dudes, Cadavars in waiting to be fried by rf.

You forgot that not only will the car get fried but so will you.

This is why radar dectors are an important tool in the fight against big brother.

[K8ERV]

Quote[/b] (k8mhz @ Dec. 30 2007,11:39)]There is also another issue not covered. #When the vehicle's engine shuts off it greatly impedes the ability to steer or stop the vehicle
Wish you had told me that BEFORE I turned the engine off while going down a steep and curvy mountain road with steep dropoffs. I was killed in the crash (It was the sudden stop that did it).

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

[n7rjd]

Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Dec. 30 2007,10:19)]This is why radar dectors are an important tool in the fight against big brother.
Radar detectors can help too.

The way I see it is with the number of cases lately claiming misuse of tasers do we really want what is essentially a car taser?

[K2WH]

I think an Army surplus tank or howitzer would do the job. One round through the front grill.

K

[n7rjd]

Quote[/b] (K2WH @ Dec. 30 2007,10:30)]I think an Army surplus tank or howitzer would do the job. One round through the front grill.

K
No, that might deploy the air bag. Better to go through the windshield.

[K8ERV]

Quote[/b] (K2WH @ Dec. 30 2007,17:30)]#One round through the front grill.
Squares work better---

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

[KC9IUX]

Shows how accurate the news is.

Think of the stuff that gets by you because you don't have the expertise you have on this subject.

Like the .50 BMG rifles that "can shoot down an airplane at a mile away".

[kb2vxa]

Now this is interesting.

"whereas the high-power car-stopping system is at 300 megahertz. In both cases, the radiation is above common radio frequencies and is not harmful to humans."

I was under the impression that 300MHz was a prime military band.

"There are no biological effects,"

Tell THAT to the FCC!

"To disable cars, the device first generates energy that is amplified using a generator."

EH???

"vulnerable car parts, such as light bulb filaments, lug nuts, frame bolts, or windshield antenna."

Lug nuts? Frame bolts? What is this thing, a carbon arc torch?

Oh brother, I won't even bother with the last paragraph, it's just TOO rediculous.

[W2ILP]

Do they mean 300 Ghz, Kay you #(Ku) band. #It will k.. you... alright. BUT 300MH is the high end of VHF and the low end of UHF. Don't mess with Mr. in between?


w2ilp (Intermodulating Lotsa Pulses)...with many unhappy returns?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[K8MHZ]

Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Dec. 30 2007,12:58)]Do they mean 300 Ghz, Kay you (Ku) band. It will k.. you... alright. BUT 300MH is the high end of VHF and the low end of UHF. Don't mess with Mr. in between?


w2ilp (Intermodulating Lotsa Pulses)...with many unhappy returns?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
No...

Didn't you read the info on the links I posted to the site of the company that is working on the project?

The frequencies are from 350 MHz to 1.35 GHz. Other than path loss the project seems like it may work. There is some really neat pictures on the site of police cars with (supposedly) the equipment installed on them. Those are work the effort of pushing the button on the mouse to see. Funny, actually, especially the one with the parabolic reflector on the roof.

Personally, I think it's a scam to get a piece of the squandered trillions our supposedly conservative leader has asked and got Congress to shell out.

[W2ILP]

k8mhz

Hmmm...350 Mhz to !.35 Ghz? Sounds like spread spectrum stuff. This could easily be picked up by broadband crystal video fuzz alerters...unless...I won't go any further... because it might involve military clearence that could make it remain secure.... because we don't have a right to know....even if it doesn't.

This line is intentionally left blank.

w2ilp (Ignoring Lossy Paths?) Enuf said.

[kg4kww]

This thing would have to get the green light from the FCC before the cops could use it. So, I can just see all the people lining up to tell the FCC NO NO NO NO NO

[K8ERV]

I think that like most gov agencies the FCC does what the FCC wants to do. The heck with what the people want. Somewhere "of the people, by the people, and for the people" got lost.

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo