View Full Version : FJ/OH2AM - might not be valid
One of my friends pointed me to this (http://arp75.free.fr/Lettreaucomitedxcc_english.pdf) which is basically a letter from the French Radio Club de Paris saying that Martti's operation was invalid because they used a club callsign OH2AM which is not valid under CEPT to use as a reciprocal call under French radio rules.
If true, what a shame! I feel sorry for Martti and Olli. I knew they probably worked hard on this expedition.
The letter also goes on to request that FJ5KH be named as the first expedition from the island.
Oh well, glad I worked them both!
KC9ECI
12-30-2007, 02:52 AM
I worked FJ/OH2AM, but it really doesn't matter. I'm sure there will be plenty of operating from there in the future.
KC7UP
12-30-2007, 03:02 AM
I never worked them so I will wait for better conditions.
Curt
KC9ECI
12-30-2007, 03:32 AM
Conditions couldn't have been much better. I got them on the 2nd call on 40M very early on Christmas morning.
WW3QB
12-30-2007, 03:38 AM
Darn!
It will very interesting to see how the league handles this one. Over about the last 12 or 15 years they have appeared to "bend over backwards" for a very small group when it comes to enforcing or even changing various rules of the DXCC program.
Some places that count as countries or entities now wouldn't have even come close to having this status 15 or 20 years ago. #I can remember the DX world being up in arms about a certain Japanese operation in the mid 70's because when high tide came to this island they were using a giant raft chained to the island. #Now it seems like it would be OK as long as you could fit a picnic table on a rock without drowning.
I think the leaugue has caved in to "special interests" for two main reasons. #One is to keep world peace in the international DX community and the other one may be to maintain interest in DXCC especially in times of low solar activity.
As a rule Oh2BH is pretty well known as someone who "crosses the t's and dots the i's". #He is also known as someone who wields an great deal of power both in the international DX community and also with the powers to be at the league. #I wouldn't count this operation as a dead one yet. Not by a long shot!
He's had his fruit of the looms in a knot ever since FJ/OH2AM got started.
Go here and scroll down to his posts;
Saint Barthelemy (http://hamspirit.wordpress.com/2007/12/18/fjoh2am-saint-barthelemy/)
He doesn't like being beat to the punch.
Sri OM. The Vikings have landed and left already.
In one post he wrote;
Quote[/b] ]The operation should have started with a commeration ceremony and some very good French champagne followed by excellent cuisine française.
Kinda like wasting the first couple hours of field day trying to get the US flag someone brought on the top of the temporary tower after it is already guyed down! Nice gesture but....
Quote[/b] (k7mh @ Dec. 30 2007,02:16)]He's had his fruit of the looms in a knot ever since FJ/OH2AM got started.
Go here and scroll down to his posts;
Saint Barthelemy (http://hamspirit.wordpress.com/2007/12/18/fjoh2am-saint-barthelemy/)
He doesn't like being beat to the punch.
Sri OM. The Vikings have landed and left already.
In one post he wrote;
Quote[/b] ]The operation should have started with a commeration ceremony and some very good French champagne followed by excellent cuisine française.
Kinda like wasting the first couple hours of field day trying to get the US flag someone brought on the top of the temporary tower after it is already guyed down! Nice gesture but....
The indigenous St. Barts hams have a point.
Who the hell do these two Finns think they are slipping in the country without at the very least a courtesy call to the local Hams.
Once again we get to see if the ARRL is going to stick to the letter of it's rules or try the "potomoc two step".
I would say they seem to have a point http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
W0BKR
12-30-2007, 07:00 PM
I suspect they will count it. ARRL is in bed closely with OH2BH and whatever operation he puts on, usually, (don't know of any that haven't) gets counted.
Not the first time someone didn't follow the "rules" but heck, it's DX.
WB2WIK
12-30-2007, 07:19 PM
Doesn't matter much except to the operators themselves who spent most of what could have been a great beach vacation on the air!
FJ wasn't rare before it became a separate entity, and it won't be rare in the future. It's a sunny, warm location with five-star hotels to stay in...no hardship involved except the cost of the transportation and the hotel. I suspect now that it's an "entity," somebody will set up a large-scale permanent ham station for visitors to use in contests and such, for a fee, as other islands have.
Quote[/b] ]Who the hell do these two Finns think they are slipping in the country without at the very least a courtesy call to the local Hams.
So what? Ya gotta get permission from the local ham club (that is apparently administered in Paris) to operate?
If it is approved by the licensing regulators for that country or you already have a license for that country then that's that.
The KH8SI guys are headed there to be there on the 6th.
Sure haven't heard anything about the locals being on yet!
Probably like FP. A whole bunch of licenses issued to people that don't live there.
Quote[/b] (AC0H @ Dec. 30 2007,11:24)]The indigenous St. Barts hams have a point.
Who the hell do these two Finns think they are slipping in the country without at the very least a courtesy call to the local Hams.
Once again we get to see if the ARRL is going to stick to the letter of it's rules or try the "potomoc two step".
Which "indigenous" St. Barts hams?
The induhvidual making the most fuss has an F6 call and has made his complaint via a Paris-based club. No activity known from his FJ call for many years.
Sorry, but the more I look into this, the more two things come across:
(1) Some people were jealous that Martti & Olli were "first"
(2) Some people are jealous of Martti period
Now one might argue that Martti & Olli should have made a "courtesy call" to the local hams. I don't know if they made the effort -- or if the visited with other local hams, not the one or two complaining. But is that a reason to have a DXpedition disallowed from the DXCC list?
Not being familiar with the CEPT regulations, especially the ones about club calls, I don't know if Martti & Olli made an error using the call of a club they belonged to. It just doesn't add up, though, considering how meticulous a planner Martti usually is. But -- OK, so let's say for the sake of argument that they did make an error by using the call. Is THAT and that error alone reason enough to have the DXpedition disallowed?
And I think it's unfair to prejudge what Bill Moore & the DXCC desk is going to about acceptance of the operation. I've met Bill and talked with him about similar issues with other calls before. He strikes me as a fair man who will weigh in all of the relevant details -- and ignore the irrelevant ones. No "potomoc two step" will be done, at least not by him and his staff.
Now brush aside all of the hype and hyperbole and ego and personal attacks. If you give a hoot about DXCC, then ask yourself two questions:
1. Was the use of the FJ/OH2AM call proper, and if it was not, was that a serious enough error to cause the entire expedition to be disallowed?
2. Should a DXpedition be disallowed because the visitors didn't pay personal visits to the locals, or leave antennas and/or equipment behind for them... let alone stop and have a huge ceremony with wine and a meal to help ceremonially "kick off" the new entity?
These are the key questions. All else is used chads.
If you look at:
http://arp75.free.fr/Lettreaucomitedxcc_english.pdf
You will find that OH2AM is a 'class C' license in Finland.
The CEPT regulations require individual calls be used for reciprocal operating.
The Finnish gov't apparently says that "OH2AM" club call is ONLY valid within Finland. Therefore, it isn't 'legal' to use it outside the country. Period.
This is a no brainer for the ARRL. Unless someone can come up with special permission from the Finnish gov't ahead of time authorizing that, plus special persmission from the CEPT body, the ARRL is going to have to go by its rules.
The ARRL is not going to be able to 'accredit' the OH2AM expedition since the callsign used was not legally possible to use in FJ land.
It looks like the locals have a substantial case, and it will be hard with the evidence in the above referenced link to argue otherwise.
It's sad that the FJs have to get into a battle like this....they are going to lose a lot of credibility and dozens of others will descend upon the island, and they'll be swamped under with massive pileups if they themselves try to get on the air.
It's not unusual for hams in a country to try and insure that all the 'green stamps' come their way for rare islands or rare parts of the country. Some actually have gov't collusion to keep outsiders off those terrirtories, or you have to 'partner' with a native ham to get permission to go there.
Quote[/b] (n4cd @ Dec. 31 2007,13:37)]If you look at:
http://arp75.free.fr/Lettreaucomitedxcc_english.pdf
You will find that OH2AM is a 'class C' license in Finland. #
The CEPT regulations require individual calls be used for reciprocal operating.
The Finnish gov't apparently says that "OH2AM" club call is ONLY valid within Finland. #Therefore, it isn't 'legal' to use it outside the country. #Period. #
This is a no brainer for the ARRL. #Unless someone can come up with special permission from the Finnish gov't ahead of time authorizing that, plus special persmission from the CEPT body, the ARRL is going to have to go by its rules.
The ARRL is not going to be able to 'accredit' the OH2AM expedition since the callsign used was not legally possible to use in FJ land.
It looks like the locals have a substantial case, and it will be hard with the evidence in the above referenced link to argue otherwise. #
It's sad that the FJs have to get into a battle like this....they are going to lose a lot of credibility and dozens of others will descend upon the island, and they'll be swamped under with massive pileups if they themselves try to get on the air. #
It's not unusual for hams in a country to try and insure that all the 'green stamps' come their way for rare islands or rare parts of the country. #Some actually have gov't collusion to keep outsiders off those terrirtories, or you have to 'partner' with a native ham to get permission to go there.
I'd like to see the actual text of French-CEPT TR/61-01.
It doesn't matter.
Apparently the Finnish government license assignment documents say that a class C license is only valid within Finland -club call.
It matters not what CEPT says if that is the case. CEPT cannot override the Finnish radio licensing.
Quote[/b] ]Therefore, it isn't 'legal' to use it outside the country. Period.
Seems that would be a problem for the country you are in since that is where you are operating from and creating the supposed violation. Could be that once the fees are paid that the country you are in may not care one bit. Thanks for the dough, you're good to go!
Even if it should turn up bad it was fun to be in a good pile up or two...for a couple minutes anyway! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
I wouldn't worry about it, either way. There are a number of plans announced already for other efforts from FJ land, including some upcoming contests.
This is not a reef with scaffolds on it.... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
Quote[/b] (n4cd @ Dec. 31 2007,19:36)]It doesn't matter.
Apparently the Finnish government license assignment documents say that a class C license is only valid within Finland -club call.
It matters not what CEPT says if that is the case. CEPT cannot override the Finnish radio licensing.
Not really.
The final decision ALWAYS rests with the host country's authorities.
If France says you can operate by signing your name in blood, despite what Finland says, you can sign your name in blood and operate.
Just got the latest ARRL DX bulletin and there was no mention of the FJ/OH2AM operation at all. #They did announce another operation coming up with F6EXV.
W4DFW
01-04-2008, 03:50 AM
Fellows, let's look at the wording in the letter regarding the section in question:
Quote[/b] ]II. Offense criteria for validation program DXCC
The rules for accreditation of DXCC in his point III.1 have not been met.
The settlement of DXCC, in his point III.1 shows:
« Conversely, findings by a host government indicating non-compliance with their
amateur radio regulations may cause denial or revocation of accreditation. »
As a result of non-compliance with applicable regulations Radio France, in sections 2.3
and 3.1 of CEPT TR 61-01, it is requested that the committee DXCC not validate the
activity « FJ/OH2AM » by the strict application of Article III.1.
I repeated the emphasis in the wording "may cause." It does not say "shall cause."
Leave it up to the French to get their panties in a wad over this.
I'm sure SOMEONE granted permission for the DXpedition.
It would be a shame to throw all that hard work down the drain by Frenchy folks playing Monday Morning Quarterback.
f6gox
01-10-2008, 04:58 PM
Dear Alexander,
Many thanks for your clear answer.
Best regards
Laurent BEUGNET F6GOX
Alexander Gulyaev a écrit :
> Dear Laurent,
>
> Your understanding of the situation with national and club call signes is correct.
> Club call signs are not covered by Recommendation T/R 61-01 and should be considered at the national level only.
> As you understand, classifications to join the club could be different from HAREC requirements which are associated with CEPT Licence. Club members, including the holder of the club call sign, should use their national personal call signs when abroad (in the participating in T/R 61-01 country).
>
> Regards,
> ************************************************** ********
> Alexander GULYAEV
> Regulatory Affairs
> European Radiocommunications Office
>
> Office: + 45 33 89 63 13
> Mobile: + 45 20 82 80 24
> Fax: + 45 33 89 63 30
> http://www.ero.dk
> ************************************************** *********
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mette J Konner Sent: 10 January 2008 10:25
> To: Alexander Gulyaev
> Subject: FW: Respect of the 2.3 cept tr 61-01 rule
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lbeugnet [mailto:lbeugnet@free.fr]
> Sent: 10. januar 2008 10:04
> To: Mette J Konner
> Cc: fj5dx; dxcc@arrl.org; radiocom@ficora.fi; Claude-Robert DELIME
> Subject: Respect of the 2.3 cept tr 61-01 rule
>
> Dear Sir,
>
>
> For the amateur radio stations,
>
> As the section 2.3 of the CEPT TR 61-01 Nicosia 2003 states:
>
> «2.3 When transmitting in the visited country the licence holder must use his national call sign preceded by the call sign prefix of the visited country as indicated in Appendices II and IV. The call sign prefix and the national call sign must be separated by the character "/" (telegraphy) or the word "stroke" (telephony). »
>
> For us, it is totally clear that a club station call sign, which is not "his" national call sign or the licence holder, can not be used because the 2.3 states than *the licence holder must use his national call sign* and by the way do not authorize the use of a club station in a visiting country other than "his" one ?
>
> The text does not mention the club station call sign *because* the text says the amateur radio visitor must use *his national call sign* .
>
> It seems there is some confusion by few amateur radio who are in charge of a club station, means chairman and not the holder of the radio club call sign which is not "his" personnal call sign.
>
> They claim to be authorized to use a club station call sign in all the cept country.
>
> Could you confirm our opinion about this rules 2.3 ?
>
> More they totally forget local rules, as each host country can used, more restricted than CEPT even if they are cept member.
>
> Many thanks for a quick reply.
>
> With my best regards.
>
> Laurent BEUGNET
> Amateur radio station F6GOX
Boy, they sure are determined to "stick it" to Martti & Olli, aren't they?
They tried. But failed. Just announced. FJ/OH2AM is **approved** by ARRL.
Quote[/b] (NN3W @ Jan. 11 2008,17:05)]They tried. #But failed. #Just announced. #FJ/OH2AM is **approved** by ARRL.
Great!
How long before the whining starts? Let's see, will it be that:
-- the fix was in
-- Martti calls the shots
-- Bernie calls the shots
-- Martti & Bernie calls the shots
-- they only follow the rules when it suits them
-- that the ARRL being US based doesn't care what the French think?
Oh, and let's not forget about all the Big Bucks that the ARRL rakes in from DXCC.
Have I missed any of the standard bashes?
George Bush was behind it.
OK, I just went and looked at Bill's announcement (it's on the DXCC weblog at present, not on the main news page).
Technically, it doesn't actually say that the operation is approved. What it does is address the issue(s) raised by F6GOX et al regarding the use (proper or otherwise) of the OH2AM club call.
The statement does acknowledge that there is a difference of opinion or interpretation of how CEPT and related rules govern use of club calls.
But more importantly, it points out WHY the call was used, and that it's purpose was not to give operators of the station operating privileges that they didn't deserve.
It also points out that OTHER individuals from various CEPT entities have operated under CEPT rules with club calls on other expeditions. And been accepted with no complaints. I do believe that's call "precedent."
One can hope that this will put an end to the controversy. But you know it won't.
73
kb9bit
01-11-2008, 09:47 PM
Quote[/b] (w3wn @ Jan. 11 2008,14:37)]Technically, it doesn't actually say that the operation is approved. What it does is address the issue(s) raised by F6GOX et al regarding the use (proper or otherwise) of the OH2AM club call.
Scroll down. #It says so there. #73
Operations Approved for DXCC Credit
Jan 11, 2008 15:46 ET
Bill Moore, NC1L
The following operations are approved for DXCC credit:
TT8PK -- Chad
2007 and current 2008 Operations
YK9SV -- Syria
2007 Operation
6E4LM, XF4YK and XF4YW -- Revillagigedo
2007 Operations
FJ/OH2AM -- Saint Barthelemy
2007 Operation
TN6X -- Republic of The Congo
2007 Operation
TN9Z -- Republic of The Congo
2007 Operation
73 es DX!
Bill Moore NC1L
DXCC Manager
This DX Bulletin from the ARRL was in my inbox this afternoon:
Quote[/b] ]
SB DX @ ARL $ARLD003
ARLD003 Information on FJ/OH2AM
ZCZC AE03
QST de W1AW
DX Bulletin 3 ARLD003
>From ARRL Headquarters
Newington CT January 11, 2008
To all radio amateurs
SB DX ARL ARLD003
ARLD003 Information on FJ/OH2AM
This operation by OH2BH and OH0XX was conducted under CEPT
Recommendation T/R 61-01. This Recommendation makes it possible for
radio amateurs from CEPT countries (and certain non-CEPT countries)
to operate in other CEPT countries without obtaining an individual
temporary license from the visited CEPT country.
Complaints were received from several individuals. The main thrust
of the complaints is that the operators used a club call for which
Laine is station trustee, rather than their individual callsigns.
The intention of the operators in using a single callsign was to
limit the number of duplicate contacts. Many DXpeditions use club or
special-issue callsigns for this reason. The Recommendation makes no
mention of club callsigns but says that the visiting license holder
"must use his national call sign preceded by the call sign prefix of
the visited country." Other operations using club callsigns from
French territory, including in the Caribbean, have taken place under
provisions of the Recommendation and have been credited for DXCC.
Since the question was raised, checking with various CEPT
administrations and with the European Radiocommunication Office
(ERO) has revealed different views regarding the use of club
callsigns under the Recommendation. The ERO observes that the use of
a club callsign could prevent an administration from determining
whether a particular operator is qualified and concludes, "Club
members, including the holder of the club call sign, should use
their national personal call signs when abroad."
In the case of FJ/OH2AM, the two operators clearly were qualified to
operate in St Barthelemy under the Recommendation. They utilized a
call authorized to them by their national authority. The purpose of
a radio station callsign is to identify the administration and the
licensee responsible for the operation of the station. The use of
FJ/OH2AM rather than FJ/OH2BH and FJ/OH0XX did not thwart this
purpose.
NNNN
/EX
Quote[/b] (kb9bit @ Jan. 11 2008,17:47)]Quote[/b] (w3wn @ Jan. 11 2008,14:37)]Technically, it doesn't actually say that the operation is approved. What it does is address the issue(s) raised by F6GOX et al regarding the use (proper or otherwise) of the OH2AM club call.
Scroll down. #It says so there. #73
Operations Approved for DXCC Credit
Jan 11, 2008 15:46 ET
Bill Moore, NC1L
The following operations are approved for DXCC credit:
TT8PK -- Chad
2007 and current 2008 Operations
YK9SV -- Syria
2007 Operation
6E4LM, XF4YK and XF4YW -- Revillagigedo
2007 Operations
FJ/OH2AM -- Saint Barthelemy
2007 Operation
TN6X -- Republic of The Congo
2007 Operation
TN9Z -- Republic of The Congo
2007 Operation
73 es DX!
Bill Moore NC1L
DXCC Manager
Picky, picky.
Bill's explanation of the FJ/OH2AM situation, which is what I was referring to, doesn't actually say that it's approved. That's in a different message.
kb9bit
01-11-2008, 10:11 PM
Quote[/b] (w3wn @ Jan. 11 2008,14:58)]Quote[/b] (kb9bit @ Jan. 11 2008,17:47)]Quote[/b] (w3wn @ Jan. 11 2008,14:37)]Technically, it doesn't actually say that the operation is approved. What it does is address the issue(s) raised by F6GOX et al regarding the use (proper or otherwise) of the OH2AM club call.
Scroll down. #It says so there. #73
Operations Approved for DXCC Credit
Jan 11, 2008 15:46 ET
Bill Moore, NC1L
The following operations are approved for DXCC credit:
TT8PK -- Chad
2007 and current 2008 Operations
YK9SV -- Syria
2007 Operation
6E4LM, XF4YK and XF4YW -- Revillagigedo
2007 Operations
FJ/OH2AM -- Saint Barthelemy
2007 Operation
TN6X -- Republic of The Congo
2007 Operation
TN9Z -- Republic of The Congo
2007 Operation
73 es DX!
Bill Moore NC1L
DXCC Manager
Picky, picky.
Bill's explanation of the FJ/OH2AM situation, which is what I was referring to, doesn't actually say that it's approved. #That's in a different message.
No sweat. #I didn't know if the list I copied had been posted at the time you made your post.
Either way, I'm glad it's approved. #Now I don't have to try and work the current operation.
73
No problem. And no, your copy of the list hadn't been posted when I started my reply... these things happen.
Did have a slight chuckle when I saw that someone started a brand new thread, and almost all of the bashes I mentioned earlier showed up. How about that.