LIDS

[k0dxc]

Guys I am 13 years old and an innocent ham radio operator enjoying his hobby.

I posted another thread today call Hello Everyone about how I am going inactive and would be spending my last weekend of radio in Minnesota on the air.

I was calling cq on 20 meter CW about 20 minutes ago and I was having OH(Finland) stations calling me. I was enjoying the pileup when suddenly 2 lids transmit over the dx.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
then it seemed for good measure

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ............................................

I got into this hobby at my age to have fun. I don't want to hear foul language or rude comments, I also don't want people recking the fun maybe because they have problems or they just get frustrated when they can't work the DX.

I am barely a teen, If you want to wreck the hobby
or make my parents decide to take me off the air because
of all the bad influence becoming available on the bands keep it up I'm telling you because it's working

[A71AN]

Quote[/b] (k0dxc @ Dec. 28 2007,15:24)]Guys I am 13 years old and an innocent ham radio operator enjoying his hobby.

I posted another thread today call Hello Everyone about how I am going inactive and would be spending my last weekend of radio in Minnesota on the air.

I was calling cq on 20 meter CW about 20 minutes ago and I was having OH(Finland) stations calling me. I was enjoying the pileup when suddenly 2 lids transmit over the dx.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
then it seemed for good measure

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ............................................

I got into this hobby at my age to have fun. I don't want to hear foul language or rude comments, I also don't want people recking the fun maybe because they have problems or they just get frustrated when they can't work the DX.

I am barely a teen, If you want to wreck the hobby
or make my parents decide to take me off the air because
of all the bad influence becoming available on the bands keep it up I'm telling you because it's working
Good Luck son, wishing you all of the best

73

[G0GQK]

Ask ya pop to buy a headset for you, its easier that way.

G0GQK

[N0HOZ]

dxc, I know exactly what you mean. I've been away from radio for awhile, and recently came back. I was really surprised how much trash you hear on some freqs. Until the FCC does something about these people, we just have to move on to a different frequency, I guess. I saw in another thread something about tracking times, frequencies, call signs (if they even bother to give one), and reporting them to the FCC. Maybe if they got enough complaints. It's hard to say.

Don't give up. Just change freqs, for now. You'd think people that had to pass such a test, to get a license, would have more common sense.

[NN4RH]

Unfortunately there are those who think that anything goes when it comes to working DX. The most important thing in the world to them is to hear their callsign and "5NN" and they don't care who they have to step on to get it.

There have always been LIDs in the hobby - in fact the term "LID" is so old, that nobody really is sure how it originated.

Not much you can do about it. So QSY and get on with your fun somewhere else.

[k0dxc]

Quote[/b] (G0GQK @ Dec. 28 2007,15:30)]Ask ya pop to buy a headset for you, its easier that way.

G0GQK
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[w8znx]

K0DXC Hello

Lid is a very old term

Lid ops have been around since
the first ham ops got on the air

there were lid ops over 80 years ago

when T.O.M. " the old man "
kicked Kitty and
wrote about the " Wouff-Hong

and will be around many years
from now

learn to live with it
yes i know its a pain
having to deal with them
but
its a fact of life

learn how to work around them

yours truly
Mac

[k0dxc]

I hope I'm not giving you guys the crybaby impression. :blush:

[N0HOZ]

Not at all. We need to get more young hams, to keep the hobby going.

[w8znx]

Quote[/b] (k0dxc @ Dec. 28 2007,15:46)]I hope I'm not giving you guys the crybaby impression. :blush:
nah ur ok

[kc9khg]

Don't feel bad Calvin,it happens to all of us at one time or another. Just this morning I was having a QSO with my CW Elmer and someone just starts calling CQ right over the top of us.No QRL? or anything. We just moved down a little. it happens. Keep pounding brass and having fun!
73
de KC9KHG

[k3wrv]

Hi Cal-

On 20, not everybody can hear everybody else, so life gets difficult. Today, because of your ZED post, many of us were looking fer you, so you got to be on the RX end of a pile up.

Never been on a DXPedition, nor do I want to go, but a simple "OH??? KN" might have solved your porblem.

When you made your ZED post, you became "DX" (Or Special event, or whatever).

You're a good op, and one of these days you'll figure out how to handle pileups, (and how to bust them). But I don't think anybody can teach you how to do that.

There's a lid born every minute, and every few years there's a good op that beats the pants off the lids. You're one of the good guys. And in your case, some of the "lids" may have been good ops. Don't worry - Life WILL go on!

[w4nti]

Quote[/b] (k0dxc @ Dec. 27 2007,16:24)]Guys I am 13 years old and an innocent ham radio operator enjoying his hobby.

I posted another thread today call Hello Everyone about how I am going inactive and would be spending my last weekend of radio in Minnesota on the air.

I was calling cq on 20 meter CW about 20 minutes ago and I was having OH(Finland) stations calling me. I was enjoying the pileup when suddenly 2 lids transmit over the dx.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
then it seemed for good measure

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ............................................

I got into this hobby at my age to have fun. I don't want to hear foul language or rude comments, I also don't want people recking the fun maybe because they have problems or they just get frustrated when they can't work the DX.

I am barely a teen, If you want to wreck the hobby
or make my parents decide to take me off the air because
of all the bad influence becoming available on the bands keep it up I'm telling you because it's working
I too got started in HR at the tender age of 13. I too was a wet behind the ear ignorant of the ways of the world. I too thought I had special rights just because I was a youngun. I learned better tho. My learnin was on 75 meter phone. It came from a "gentleman" called W2OY. He probably single handled ran off a entire generation of new hams in the early 60s.

I WAS'NT ONE OF THEM......Nope.....I learned how to play the game, sounds to me you need to drop back and punt and quit expecting the world to accomidate you.

As Mr. Gump said "Life is like a bunch of Chocolates, you never know what your gonna get".

Dan/W4NTI

[w4nti]

Quote[/b] (kc9khg @ Dec. 27 2007,17:40)]Don't feel bad Calvin,it happens to all of us at one time or another. Just this morning I was having a QSO with my CW Elmer and someone just starts calling CQ right over the top of us.No QRL? or anything. We just moved down a little. #it happens. Keep pounding brass and having fun!
73
de KC9KHG
Yep.....jumpin on top of a on going QSO and calling CQ is the NORM now aday's.....wonder why that happens? How bout the so called Elmers don't bother to teach their students how to LISTEN and say "Is the frequency in use" (or in Morse it would be "QRL de C/S" or just a simple di di dum dum di dit would suffice.

Dan/W4NTI

[w4nti]

Quote[/b] (k3wrv @ Dec. 27 2007,17:50)]Hi Cal-

# # On 20, not everybody can hear everybody else, so life gets difficult. #Today, because of your ZED post, many of us were looking fer you, so you got to be on the #RX end of a pile up.

# # Never been on a DXPedition, nor do I want to go, but a simple "OH??? KN" might have solved your porblem.

# # When you made your ZED post, you became "DX" (Or Special event, or whatever).

# # You're a good op, and one of these days you'll figure out how to handle pileups, (and how to bust them). #But I don't think anybody can teach you how to do that.

# # There's a lid born every minute, and every few years there's a good op that beats the pants off the lids. #You're one of the good guys. #And in your case, some of the "lids" may have been good ops. #Don't worry - Life WILL go on!
Could you translate this please;

"OH??? KN"

The KN means only the station you called is to answer, what does the "OH" mean?

Dan/W4NTI

[K5USS]

I have a problem with you DXC!!!

You send too fast for me! # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

LOL, perhaps I should do as you have, hide the mic and grab the key!

Keep it up kiddo, I plan to use you as an EXAMPLE for my son of your age!

Make sure dad remembers what he said, but try to understand if dad suddenly realizes that a tower with beams is a large expense... #Wire has been working wonders, and with the skill I heard you with on CW today, you will do fine!

Hope to get you in the log soon,
Charlie #K5USS

[AG3Y]

It happens fairly often. It is a good possibility, especially on 20 meters, that the "lids" did not even hear the DX station and just started transmitting on what they thought was an open frequency. The best thing to learn through this experience is that one should always ask if the frequency is in use ( QRL ? in CW ).

Hang in there. You will have plenty other chances to work that DX and more, if you stick with it. Going away now will just ruin your chances and , if the QRMming was deliberate, make the QRMmers the winners! We really don't want that, now do we ?

73, and here's to many more good years of hamming ahead. Jim

[k3wrv]

W4NTI-

OH is the prefix fer Finland. :OH???" means who's the OH station? And you got the KN right. He said the dudes were trampling on the Finnish station, I suppose the rough equivelent on fone would be "Pse ONLY The Oscar Henry" or some such.

de Bob
Posted: Dec. 28 2007,17:21 QUOTE
Quote (k3wrv @ Dec. 27 2007,17:50)
Hi Cal-

"On 20, not everybody can hear everybody else, so life gets difficult. Today, because of your ZED post, many of us were looking fer you, so you got to be on the RX end of a pile up.

Never been on a DXPedition, nor do I want to go, but a simple "OH??? KN" might have solved your porblem.

When you made your ZED post, you became "DX" (Or Special event, or whatever).

You're a good op, and one of these days you'll figure out how to handle pileups, (and how to bust them). But I don't think anybody can teach you how to do that.

There's a lid born every minute, and every few years there's a good op that beats the pants off the lids. You're one of the good guys. And in your case, some of the "lids" may have been good ops. Don't worry - Life WILL go on!

Could you translate this please;

"OH??? KN"

The KN means only the station you called is to answer, what does the "OH" mean?

Dan/W4NTI "

[K1VSR]

Dude, the best advice for dealing with LIDs is just to ignore them and QSY. Keep active! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[w4nti]

Quote[/b] (k3wrv @ Dec. 27 2007,19:05)]W4NTI-

# # OH is the prefix fer Finland. #:OH???" means who's the OH station? #And you got the KN right. #He said the dudes were trampling on the Finnish station, #I suppose the rough equivelent on fone would be "Pse ONLY The Oscar Henry" or some such.

# # de Bob
Posted: Dec. 28 2007,17:21 QUOTE
Quote (k3wrv @ Dec. 27 2007,17:50)
Hi Cal-

# "On 20, not everybody can hear everybody else, so life gets difficult. #Today, because of your ZED post, many of us were looking fer you, so you got to be on the #RX end of a pile up.

# #Never been on a DXPedition, nor do I want to go, but a simple "OH??? KN" might have solved your porblem.

# #When you made your ZED post, you became "DX" (Or Special event, or whatever).

# #You're a good op, and one of these days you'll figure out how to handle pileups, (and how to bust them). #But I don't think anybody can teach you how to do that.

# #There's a lid born every minute, and every few years there's a good op that beats the pants off the lids. #You're one of the good guys. #And in your case, some of the "lids" may have been good ops. #Don't worry - Life WILL go on!

Could you translate this please;

"OH??? KN"

The KN means only the station you called is to answer, #what does the "OH" mean?

Dan/W4NTI "
OH....OH is the prefix for Finland....dang....never new that...... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I thought it might me some special code that I missed out on.

However....it seems to me sending such a long string of dit's and dah's is sure to tick off a lot of folks trying to hear the DX. Finland is DX, right ?

Like the ones that use readers, or just SWAG the info on the frequency or more likely from the cluster.

You know the ones that keep sending UP UP UP or sending a string of dit's and dahs like dah dah dah di di di di di di da dah di dit di di da dah di dit di di da dah di dit da dit dah da dit. Sure would tick me off hearing that crap covering up a DX station.

Just a thought or two.

Dan/W4NTI

[w3dub]

Funny that certain people post in this thread attempting to school this op on operating practices when some of their own practices are questionable themselves.

DXC - there is a jerk born every minute (there is a more grown up saying than this, but I'll let you learn that yourself). The best way to deal with these jerks is to ignore them. A simple, "OH STBY" might work, let the idiot dit and dah himself to get his fix.. and then continue on.

Or.. QSY. That may work too. But if these QRM'ers are just doing this to deliberately mess with you... chances are they'll try to follow you. Maybe changing modes for a bit to shake em off might work http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Yeah, its frustrating to have some jerk mess with you when working DX.. but its going to happen.

You're 13 though, that's a positive. Plenty of time to work the countries you need.. you have a 15 year head start on me:D

Good luck sir (I believe I worked you once, I need to check the log)
73

[ai4ep]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif The LIDS can and DO serve one purpose --- they let you know beyond a reasonable doubt that your radio IS working ( especially the transmitter ), and operating correctly.

A LID wont mess with you if your audio is dostorted.

A LID wont mess with you if your transmitter aint working correctly.

A LID wont mess with you if your signal is not LOUD to the LID...LIDs wont mess with weak stations...just loud ones.

That is why that --- with my weak scratchy signal, that I dont get too many LIDS messing with me, for they are all busy messing with you folks with good LOUD stations and upsetting your day, not mine.

Simple & to the point...even YOU understood it.

no insult intended

[N5ZAP]

I'm a relatively new ham. Got my Tech license in 2006 and my General in March 2007. Working on the Extra now, although I can't afford an HF rig yet. Katrina was the main reason, although I have always been interested and owned most of the electronics kits that Radio Shack made when I was a kid.

My radios are always on when I'm home, and I will probably take on calling a 2m net this year for one of my clubs. I'm a bit below the average age for a ham, I guess (39 in January) and hoping that I can help to get more young people interested, and more Technicians interested.

I am interested in 2m and 6m SSB, and everything else VHF/UHF. That may change when I get an HF rig, it remains to be seen.

[w3dub]

have fun with it. 6m is an interesting band.. got into a a bit earlier this year. I got the Cushcraft beam downstairs which is definitely going up in the spring.. hopefully sunspots will cooperate and bring 6 back to life http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[W4INF]

Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ Dec. 27 2007,18:31)]It happens fairly often. It is a good possibility, especially on 20 meters, that the "lids" did not even hear the DX station and just started transmitting on what they thought was an open frequency.
Honestly, I think this accounts for 90% of activity of this description. A few times Ive had the same happen to me.

I got heated.

But then thought, maybe they cant HEAR us, but we *I* can hear THEM.

Possible.

See, radio is not a science, it more magic, anything is possible, sometimes what is supposed to work is a total failure, and what defies common sense, works great!

We do have some basic "rules" and formulas to guide us, but even then, it is not a perfect world.

So, as I step back from the key, or the mic I ask myself... Why would someone just step right on my QSO?!?!! Well, I concluded... If they heard us, I dont think they would!

Then, there is the changing propagation... Maybe prop opened up and between there and here and all of a sudden, I can hear them... Come on, everyone has experienced the famous ... I was working a contact when prop changed and all of a sudden I couldn't hear them! Well, if that is acknowledged as known fact, why then couldn't the exact opposite happen??? A sig that magically appears from no where....


So, before we jump on the lid bandwagon, can this be explained? I dare to say YES, likely its as I described above. Not complicated, just simple MAGIC!

Anyone care to comment on this theory?

Andrew

[KC9GUZ]

Dont let the LIDS get you down.

[w4nti]

Quote[/b] (KB3JGU @ Dec. 27 2007,20:32)]Funny that certain people post in this thread attempting to school this op on operating practices when some of their own practices are questionable themselves.

DXC - there is a jerk born every minute (there is a more grown up saying than this, but I'll let you learn that yourself). The best way to deal with these jerks is to ignore them. A simple, "OH STBY" might work, let the idiot dit and dah himself to get his fix.. and then continue on.

Or.. QSY. That may work too. But if these QRM'ers are just doing this to deliberately mess with you... chances are they'll try to follow you. Maybe changing modes for a bit to shake em off might work http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Yeah, its frustrating to have some jerk mess with you when working DX.. but its going to happen.

You're 13 though, that's a positive. Plenty of time to work the countries you need.. you have a 15 year head start on me:D

Good luck sir (I believe I worked you once, I need to check the log)
73
JGU,

Funny that certain people post in this thread attempting to school this op on operating practices when some of their own practices are questionable themselves.

Come on now spit it out. Let the moderators slap you around some more.

Dan/W4NTI

[w3dub]

Go away, troll http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[w4nti]

Quote[/b] (W4INF @ Dec. 28 2007,08:50)]Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ Dec. 27 2007,18:31)]It happens fairly often. #It is a good possibility, especially on 20 meters, that the "lids" did not even hear the DX station and just started transmitting on what they thought was an open frequency.
Honestly, I think this accounts for 90% of activity of this description. #A few times Ive had the same happen to me.

I got heated.

But then thought, maybe they cant HEAR us, but we *I* can hear THEM.

Possible.

See, radio is not a science, it more magic, anything is possible, sometimes what is supposed to work is a total failure, and what defies common sense, works great!

We do have some basic "rules" and formulas to guide us, but even then, it is not a perfect world.

So, as I step back from the key, or the mic I ask myself... Why would someone just step right on my QSO?!?!! #Well, I concluded... If they heard us, I dont think they would!

Then, there is the changing propagation... Maybe prop opened up and between there and here and all of a sudden, I can hear them... #Come on, everyone has experienced the famous ... I was working a contact when prop changed and all of a sudden I couldn't hear them! #Well, if that is acknowledged as known fact, why then couldn't the exact opposite happen??? #A sig that magically appears from no where....


So, before we jump on the lid bandwagon, can this be explained? #I dare to say YES, likely its as I described above. #Not complicated, just simple MAGIC!

Anyone care to comment on this theory?

Andrew
W4INF,

EXCELLENT point. Certainly something to consider. Another thing to consider is operator skill and their equipment capabilities.

Some folks just don't have the experience, and I would venture to say, most folks, new and old, don't use all the goodies available to them on the front panel.

And I would also say, CW pileups can be a serious challenge without experience. No way to get that but to jump in and get your feet wet.

Dan/W4NTI

[k0dxc]

I have views on the subject guys you don't need to school me in what a lid is

[KU0DM]

Quote[/b] (k0dxc @ Dec. 28 2007,15:24)]Guys I am 13 years old and an innocent ham radio operator enjoying his hobby.

I posted another thread today call Hello Everyone about how I am going inactive and would be spending my last weekend of radio in Minnesota on the air.

I was calling cq on 20 meter CW about 20 minutes ago and I was having OH(Finland) stations calling me. I was enjoying the pileup when suddenly 2 lids transmit over the dx.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
then it seemed for good measure

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ............................................

I got into this hobby at my age to have fun. I don't want to hear foul language or rude comments, I also don't want people recking the fun maybe because they have problems or they just get frustrated when they can't work the DX.

I am barely a teen, If you want to wreck the hobby
or make my parents decide to take me off the air because
of all the bad influence becoming available on the bands keep it up I'm telling you because it's working
I personally find LIDS refreshing, makes me feel better about myself and my operating practices http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

LIDs happen, don't let them drive you off the air. I have had some bad incidents with paranoid self policing Hams thinking I don't have my license because I am so young. It went from bad to worse, then a nice east coast station whom I had QSOed before gave them a piece of his mind. It was all pretty funny actually.

I guess my point is, don't take it personally, don't think how bad the experience was, Ham radio is a hobby where you very much sometimes just need to roll with the punches, as long as you logged an OH, it wasn't all bad.

GL with the moving too Calvin! 73

[k0dxc]

ty duncan

[n5wrx]

Quote[/b] (w8znx @ Dec. 28 2007,15:45)]K0DXC Hello

Lid is a very old term

Lid ops have been around since
the first ham ops got on the air

there were lid ops over 80 years ago

when T.O.M. " the old man "
kicked Kitty and
wrote about the " Wouff-Hong

and will be around many years
from now

learn to live with it
yes i know its a pain
having to deal with them
but
its a fact of life

learn how to work around them

yours truly
Mac
gee
do
you
always
post
like
this
?

[k0dxc]

I was gonna ask that:)

[ab8yy]

Quote[/b] (w4nti @ Dec. 29 2007,08:37)]Quote[/b] (W4INF @ Dec. 28 2007,08:50)]Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ Dec. 27 2007,18:31)]It happens fairly often. #It is a good possibility, especially on 20 meters, that the "lids" did not even hear the DX station and just started transmitting on what they thought was an open frequency.
Honestly, I think this accounts for 90% of activity of this description. #A few times Ive had the same happen to me.

I got heated.

But then thought, maybe they cant HEAR us, but we *I* can hear THEM.

Possible.

See, radio is not a science, it more magic, anything is possible, sometimes what is supposed to work is a total failure, and what defies common sense, works great!

We do have some basic "rules" and formulas to guide us, but even then, it is not a perfect world.

So, as I step back from the key, or the mic I ask myself... Why would someone just step right on my QSO?!?!! #Well, I concluded... If they heard us, I dont think they would!

Then, there is the changing propagation... Maybe prop opened up and between there and here and all of a sudden, I can hear them... #Come on, everyone has experienced the famous ... I was working a contact when prop changed and all of a sudden I couldn't hear them! #Well, if that is acknowledged as known fact, why then couldn't the exact opposite happen??? #A sig that magically appears from no where....


So, before we jump on the lid bandwagon, can this be explained? #I dare to say YES, likely its as I described above. #Not complicated, just simple MAGIC!

Anyone care to comment on this theory?

Andrew
W4INF,

EXCELLENT point. #Certainly something to consider. #Another thing to consider is operator skill and their equipment capabilities.

Some folks just don't have the experience, and I would venture to say, most folks, #new and old, don't use all the goodies available to them on the front panel. #

And I would also say, CW pileups can be a serious challenge without experience. #No way to get that but to jump in and get your feet wet.

Dan/W4NTI
Your theory doesn't hold water and trying to school this young op about pileups is stupid in this case. He wasn't being interferred with by someone else trying to work the OH station. It was someone sending strings of dashes and dots. That isn't a pileup - that is just plain and simple QRM. This wouldn't explain the theory that the QRM station didn't hear him either. It sure sounds intentional to me. And apparently to others commenting in this thread.

Stop trying to teach the young operator how to operate. From what I have read he is sending good and very fast CW. Something many of you can't say for yourself.

Leave him alone and worry about your own selves if you can't say anythign positive.

Steve

[wg7x]

Yes,

What kind of a

Question

Is that to ask?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[w4nti]

Quote[/b] (ab8yy @ Dec. 28 2007,18:56)]Quote[/b] (w4nti @ Dec. 29 2007,08:37)]Quote[/b] (W4INF @ Dec. 28 2007,08:50)]Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ Dec. 27 2007,18:31)]It happens fairly often. #It is a good possibility, especially on 20 meters, that the "lids" did not even hear the DX station and just started transmitting on what they thought was an open frequency.
Honestly, I think this accounts for 90% of activity of this description. #A few times Ive had the same happen to me.

I got heated.

But then thought, maybe they cant HEAR us, but we *I* can hear THEM.

Possible.

See, radio is not a science, it more magic, anything is possible, sometimes what is supposed to work is a total failure, and what defies common sense, works great!

We do have some basic "rules" and formulas to guide us, but even then, it is not a perfect world.

So, as I step back from the key, or the mic I ask myself... Why would someone just step right on my QSO?!?!! #Well, I concluded... If they heard us, I dont think they would!

Then, there is the changing propagation... Maybe prop opened up and between there and here and all of a sudden, I can hear them... #Come on, everyone has experienced the famous ... I was working a contact when prop changed and all of a sudden I couldn't hear them! #Well, if that is acknowledged as known fact, why then couldn't the exact opposite happen??? #A sig that magically appears from no where....


So, before we jump on the lid bandwagon, can this be explained? #I dare to say YES, likely its as I described above. #Not complicated, just simple MAGIC!

Anyone care to comment on this theory?

Andrew
W4INF,

EXCELLENT point. #Certainly something to consider. #Another thing to consider is operator skill and their equipment capabilities.

Some folks just don't have the experience, and I would venture to say, most folks, #new and old, don't use all the goodies available to them on the front panel. #

And I would also say, CW pileups can be a serious challenge without experience. #No way to get that but to jump in and get your feet wet.

Dan/W4NTI
Your theory doesn't hold water and trying to school this young op about pileups is stupid in this case. #He wasn't being interferred with by someone else trying to work the OH station. #It was someone sending strings of dashes and dots. #That isn't a pileup - that is just plain and simple QRM. #This wouldn't explain the theory that the QRM station didn't hear him either. #It sure sounds intentional to me. #And apparently to others commenting in this thread.

Stop trying to teach the young operator how to operate. #From what I have read he is sending good and very fast CW. #Something many of you can't say for yourself.

Leave him alone and worry about your own selves if you can't say anythign positive.

Steve
YY,

Gee whiz Steve....I'll say I'm sorry now, to avoid another slash and burn from you.

I was going to suggest to the new guy that since this is the real world of on the air CW, and not a sanatized version of it on a tape machine or a computer....then he can expect it NOT to be perfect.

Those of us that work (and it's hard) and forcing your brain to IGNORE that which you want not to hear, like QRM and LIDS....ham radio life is much more fun. And you become a better operator.

Comes in handy when some lid clobbers you and you can STILL tune him out without using a control one.

This is for you Steve....ready? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Dan/W4NTI

[k0dxc]

Gee Dan I was kinda waiting for your response,

He got you good.


Lots of people are misguided http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[K9STH]

WRX:

Yes, Mac does always post in that manner. There is a definite reason having to do with a disability that makes posting in such a manner much easier for him.

It doesn't bother the vast majority of those who post on QRZ.com.

Glen, K9STH
One of the QRZ.com moderators

[W4INF]

Steve...


Bite me.


I was trying to help out.



Little man never mentioned in detail the events of the QRM, you got some inside link or some Vulcan mind meld we are not aware of?

[K9STH]

NTI:

"CQ, CQ, CQ, no lids, no kids, no space cadets. No phonies, good ops only".

One morning when I was in college I was mobile on 40 meter AM I just happened to call CQ on one of W2OY's "private" frequencies and, unfortunately, used phonectics ("phonies" as he called them) in my identification. W2OY didn't transmit that much on "his" frequency but he expected everyone to "respect" those frequencies and not to ever transmit on them! He "chastised" me for calling CQ on "his" frequency in a transmission that was over 45 minutes long (it took me that long during morning rush hour for me to get to campus from where I lived about 20 miles south). I don't know how long he went past that because I turned off the rig and went to class.



DXC:

How narrow a receiving filter were you using when in QSO with the OH station? If it was any wider than 400 Hz to 500 Hz then there is a very definite chance that the other stations did not hear you but you could definitely hear them. Also, remember that you get a "beat note" from signals on either side of the BFO signal and when your receiving bandwidth is very wide at all you can receive signals several KHz away that "sound like" they are on the same frequency as you are operating.

In addition, with wider bandwidths you can hear stations that are operating that will never hear you if they are running narrower filters. Frankly, I can use the 200 Hz filter on my Collins 75S-3A and anyone much more than +/- 150 Hz on each side of the station I am working will not be heard at all. When I use a 400 Hz filter then stations much over +/- 250 Hz away from the station I am working will not be heard. If I use my 500 Hz filter then stations much over +/- 300 Hz away will not be heard. However, if I use my SSB filter which is 2.1 KHz wide I can hear stations all over the place!

Frankly, when running CW you cannot expect other stations to stay more than 300 Hz to 400 Hz away from your signal under the best of conditions. During a CW contest stations often get within about 100 Hz of each other. With a narrow filter it is pretty easy to copy stations that close. With a wide filter it is VERY difficult to copy those stations unless one is considerably stronger than the others.

Glen, K9STH

[K9STH]

Things are getting a bit "testy" between certain individuals. Basically, CUT THE PERSONAL ATTACKS!

Glen, K9STH
One of the QRZ.com moderators

[K0RGR]

Hey , Calvin -

First, I'd recommend a QSY to 30 meters. The DX is just as good there, and there are far fewer idjits per khz!

DXing can be highly frustrating at times, and many mentally-challenged types get out of control. I've never understood it, myself, but I've never been a rabid DX chaser, either.

[kc4umo]

LIDS
They are out there.
Just today I witnessed a good example of a lid and good operators.
I was listening to Cedric CT3FT on 14.255. Lots of folks was trying to work him. There was this weak station that kept trying. But only when Cedric was talking.

A little while later I heard what sounded like a space blaster and then sirens. Then followed by "ahlooo". This went on for about 25 minutes.
Then I sort of chucked. Not that the fact of what the lid was doing. But the fact that not one person made a comment. Everyone ignored him and he went away.

[KU0DM]

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Dec. 29 2007,20:08)]Hey , Calvin -

First, I'd recommend a QSY to 30 meters. The DX is just as good there, and there are far fewer idjits per khz!

DXing can be highly frustrating at times, and many mentally-challenged types get out of control. I've never understood it, myself, but I've never been a rabid DX chaser, either.
I second that.

Greats ops on 30, and best of all, LIDs aren't invited, and they don't come anyway.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[N0WVA]

I just tacked together a product detector for 75 this evening. Quite amazing what a dual gate mosfet can do. First thing I tuned to was some lids playing music and jammimg each other......Then I found several good QSO's. All on a little receiver I built in a couple hours.

The lids didnt bother me, I just enjoyed the evening, me and my soldering iron...

[k0dxc]

Quote[/b] (K9STH @ Dec. 29 2007,18:31)]NTI:

"CQ, CQ, CQ, no lids, no kids, no space cadets. No phonies, good ops only".

One morning when I was in college I was mobile on 40 meter AM I just happened to call CQ on one of W2OY's "private" frequencies and, unfortunately, used phonectics ("phonies" as he called them) in my identification. W2OY didn't transmit that much on "his" frequency but he expected everyone to "respect" those frequencies and not to ever transmit on them! He "chastised" me for calling CQ on "his" frequency in a transmission that was over 45 minutes long (it took me that long during morning rush hour for me to get to campus from where I lived about 20 miles south). I don't know how long he went past that because I turned off the rig and went to class.



DXC:

How narrow a receiving filter were you using when in QSO with the OH station? If it was any wider than 400 Hz to 500 Hz then there is a very definite chance that the other stations did not hear you but you could definitely hear them. Also, remember that you get a "beat note" from signals on either side of the BFO signal and when your receiving bandwidth is very wide at all you can receive signals several KHz away that "sound like" they are on the same frequency as you are operating.

In addition, with wider bandwidths you can hear stations that are operating that will never hear you if they are running narrower filters. Frankly, I can use the 200 Hz filter on my Collins 75S-3A and anyone much more than +/- 150 Hz on each side of the station I am working will not be heard at all. When I use a 400 Hz filter then stations much over +/- 250 Hz away from the station I am working will not be heard. If I use my 500 Hz filter then stations much over +/- 300 Hz away will not be heard. However, if I use my SSB filter which is 2.1 KHz wide I can hear stations all over the place!

Frankly, when running CW you cannot expect other stations to stay more than 300 Hz to 400 Hz away from your signal under the best of conditions. During a CW contest stations often get within about 100 Hz of each other. With a narrow filter it is pretty easy to copy stations that close. With a wide filter it is VERY difficult to copy those stations unless one is considerably stronger than the others.

Glen, K9STH
STH: very narrow filter, 50 Hz, this was deliberate qrm.

[k0dxc]

trust me guys, I am very familiar with bands using CW. You don't become 30 wpm without it. Glen that was no personal attack just reminding everyone of my abilities. Don't believe me? let's set up a sked!

[k0dxc]

I'm waiting.....

Nah just kidding who else has opinions on the subject

I will take anybody up on my offer though.

[W4INF]

I agree on 30m too, its a FB band!

[ab8yy]

Quote[/b] (W4INF @ Dec. 29 2007,14:27)]Steve...


Bite me.


I was trying to help out.



Little man never mentioned in detail the events of the QRM, you got some inside link or some Vulcan mind meld we are not aware of?
ACtually he did and that was where I got it from.

Dan - he was talking about someone rudely QRMing his QSO, he wasn't compaining about a pileup - as I stated previously. I'm sure he is aware that QRM exists and it is something we have to live with. With your attitude, we should all just bend over and accept the QRM from winlids, but that, I'm happy to say, is not happening.

I think he was just getting something off his mind. But I don't think he needed an education on how things work on radio. He appears to be a very confident operator. We ALL get POed about stations intentionally QRMing us.

I'm sorry if I upset anyone who thinks they are better than someone else.

Steve

[ab8yy]

Quote[/b] (k0dxc @ Dec. 29 2007,17:53)]Quote[/b] (K9STH @ Dec. 29 2007,18:31)]NTI:

"CQ, CQ, CQ, no lids, no kids, no space cadets. #No phonies, good ops only".

One morning when I was in college I was mobile on 40 meter AM I just happened to call CQ on one of W2OY's "private" frequencies and, unfortunately, used phonectics ("phonies" as he called them) in my identification. #W2OY didn't transmit that much on "his" frequency but he expected everyone to "respect" those frequencies and not to ever transmit on them! #He "chastised" me for calling CQ on "his" frequency in a transmission that was over 45 minutes long (it took me that long during morning rush hour for me to get to campus from where I lived about 20 miles south). #I don't know how long he went past that because I turned off the rig and went to class.



DXC:

How narrow a receiving filter were you using when in QSO with the OH station? #If it was any wider than 400 Hz to 500 Hz then there is a very definite chance that the other stations did not hear you but you could definitely hear them. #Also, remember that you get a "beat note" from signals on either side of the BFO signal and when your receiving bandwidth is very wide at all you can receive signals several KHz away that "sound like" they are on the same frequency as you are operating.

In addition, with wider bandwidths you can hear stations that are operating that will never hear you if they are running narrower filters. #Frankly, I can use the 200 Hz filter on my Collins 75S-3A and anyone much more than +/- 150 Hz on each side of the station I am working will not be heard at all. #When I use a 400 Hz filter then stations much over +/- 250 Hz away from the station I am working will not be heard. #If I use my 500 Hz filter then stations much over +/- 300 Hz away will not be heard. #However, if I use my SSB filter which is 2.1 KHz wide I can hear stations all over the place!

Frankly, when running CW you cannot expect other stations to stay more than 300 Hz to 400 Hz away from your signal under the best of conditions. #During a CW contest stations often get within about 100 Hz of each other. #With a narrow filter it is pretty easy to copy stations that close. #With a wide filter it is VERY difficult to copy those stations unless one is considerably stronger than the others.

Glen, K9STH
STH: # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # very narrow filter, 50 Hz, this was deliberate qrm.
Calvin, I understood it as deliberate QRM as well from the first post. Which is why I responded the way I did. Keep up the good work. I don't think Glenn was referring to you though. If not me, should have been the "ham" that told me to "bite me". I didn't think I did anythign wrong other than explain that you really didn't need any "schooling" in CW.

I have heard you, but only can copy with computer aided CW receive. You are truly a young ham for others to look up to.

Steve

[w3wn]

Quote[/b] (k0dxc @ Dec. 28 2007,18:46)]I hope I'm not giving you guys the crybaby impression. :blush:
You're not. You're just frustrated, and rightfully so.

The small fraction of hams who are lids tend to be induhviduals with real problems in other areas of their lives... and by being lids, they think it empowers them. Of course, some are just jerks.

It's happened to all of us.

Don't let the mundanes drag you down to their level. Ignore them as best you can. If they realize they're not bothering you, they'll go away.

And... just because your folks need you to pack up your equipment early prior to the move, try to find a way to stay QRV. Can someone loan you their "backup" or "portable" station/antenna? Or is there a shack nearby you can "borrow" on occasion? Don't give up, there IS a way, most of the time!

73, ron w3wn

[N8UZE]

Quote[/b] (w4nti @ Dec. 28 2007,19:17)]Quote[/b] (kc9khg @ Dec. 27 2007,17:40)]Don't feel bad Calvin,it happens to all of us at one time or another. Just this morning I was having a QSO with my CW Elmer and someone just starts calling CQ right over the top of us.No QRL? or anything. We just moved down a little. #it happens. Keep pounding brass and having fun!
73
de KC9KHG
Yep.....jumpin on top of a on going QSO and calling CQ is the NORM now aday's.....wonder why that happens? #How bout the so called Elmers don't bother to teach their students how to LISTEN and say "Is the frequency in use" #(or in Morse it would be #"QRL de C/S" or just a simple #di di dum dum di dit would suffice.

Dan/W4NTI
In 15 years as a ham, only ONE person has taken me up on my offer to elmer them. We cannot elmer those who will not try.

[w4nti]

Quote[/b] (k0dxc @ Dec. 29 2007,13:02)]I'm waiting.....

Nah just kidding who else has opinions on the subject

I will take anybody up on my offer though.
DXC,

And what would a speed sked prove? Who is the fastest?

Just like numbers in ham radio......it's the quality not the quantity.....

Dan/W4NTI

[k0dxc]

No, I just felt like everyone thought that I new nothing about CW or about the HF bands

[w4nti]

Quote[/b] (ab8yy @ Dec. 29 2007,13:46)]Quote[/b] (W4INF @ Dec. 29 2007,14:27)]Steve...


Bite me.


I was trying to help out.



Little man never mentioned in detail the events of the QRM, you got some inside link or some Vulcan mind meld we are not aware of?
ACtually he did and that was where I got it from.

Dan - he was talking about someone rudely QRMing his #QSO, he wasn't compaining about a pileup - as I stated previously. #I'm sure he is aware that QRM exists and it is something we have to live with. #With your attitude, we should all just bend over and accept the QRM from winlids, but that, I'm happy to say, is not happening.

I think he was just getting something off his mind. #But I don't think he needed an education on how things work on radio. #He appears to be a very confident operator. #We ALL get POed about stations intentionally QRMing us.

I'm sorry if I upset anyone who thinks they are better than someone else.

Steve
Steve,

With my attitude?

You are saying "and it is something we have to live with. With your attitude, we should all just bend over and accept the QRM from winlids, but that, I'm happy to say, is not happening".

I never said such a thing, to my knowledge, at least that is not what I meant.

As usual in this PC society one must watch what he says. It is sure to come back all screwd up. Just like me being attacked for trying to stop this QRMing. I've been involved in finding and turning in these clowns since coming back from Europe and getting out of the Army in the late 70s.

Some of you remember 14313 and all that silliness going on in the 80s and 90s?....Guess what I was there, yep sure was, turning in the goofs. Yet today I'm accused of being the reason for the trash on 275.

Hams don't have the GUTS to get involved and turn in these jammers. And I assure you that MOST of them are licensed and live NEARBY someone with a receiver. Forget it. Won't happen.

As for FCC.....no money....no personnel. Can't even get them to follow their own rules and regulations. Doing good to get a letter from them after you provide tapes, dates, times, etc. All they manage to do is catch the repeater goofs. If they use their call that is.

Good luck...

Now lets get back to the subject.

Dan/W4NTI

[w4nti]

Quote[/b] (N8UZE @ Dec. 29 2007,15:58)]Quote[/b] (w4nti @ Dec. 28 2007,19:17)]Quote[/b] (kc9khg @ Dec. 27 2007,17:40)]Don't feel bad Calvin,it happens to all of us at one time or another. Just this morning I was having a QSO with my CW Elmer and someone just starts calling CQ right over the top of us.No QRL? or anything. We just moved down a little. #it happens. Keep pounding brass and having fun!
73
de KC9KHG
Yep.....jumpin on top of a on going QSO and calling CQ is the NORM now aday's.....wonder why that happens? #How bout the so called Elmers don't bother to teach their students how to LISTEN and say "Is the frequency in use" #(or in Morse it would be #"QRL de C/S" or just a simple #di di dum dum di dit would suffice.

Dan/W4NTI
In 15 years as a ham, only ONE person has taken me up on my offer to elmer them. #We cannot elmer those who will not try.
N8UZE,

Hello again...you and I have had this conversation before.. hi.

I know what you mean. The students know more than the instructor...didn't you know that?

Dan/W4NTI

[w4nti]

Quote[/b] (k0dxc @ Dec. 29 2007,16:22)]No, I just felt like everyone thought that I new nothing about CW or about the HF bands
DXC,

Perhaps some of them did think that. I never did. I take a person at their word, until proven otherwise.

My point is ..... it is not the speed that is important is the the ability to understand what is being sent.

Speed comes as you increase your exposure to the code. It is obvious someone has pointed you in the right direction. Your lucky.

Keep up the on the air as much as you can. You don't have to be on constantly. But don't let all you have learned go away. High School and College are next. Many good schools have club stations.

But whatever you do..don't make the mistake of thinking the internet has a remote resemblance to ham radio.

73

Dan/W4NTI

[ai4ep]

nti --- why do you make three consecutive posts ( one right behind the other ) ?

Just make one big post to say it all.

take care.....:)

[w4nti]

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Dec. 29 2007,17:53)]nti --- why do you make three consecutive posts #( one right behind the other ) ?

Just make one big post to say it all.

take care.....:)
Because unlike so many I see on the "net" I have other things to do than wait for a response from a previous post.

I like to sleep, eat, watch TV, and by golly play on my radio a bit.

So if you have a problem with that.....GET A LIFE>
I subscribe to a thread I find "interesting" and then read the replies and if I think I want to respond I do so. Hope that helps.

Happy New year.

Dan/W4NTI

[k0dxc]

Quote[/b] (w4nti @ Dec. 30 2007,15:51)]Quote[/b] (k0dxc @ Dec. 29 2007,16:22)]No, I just felt like everyone thought that I new nothing about CW or about the HF bands
DXC,

Perhaps some of them did think that. I never did. I take a person at their word, until proven otherwise.

My point is ..... it is not the speed that is important is the the ability to understand what is being sent.

Speed comes as you increase your exposure to the code. It is obvious someone has pointed you in the right direction. Your lucky.

Keep up the on the air as much as you can. You don't have to be on constantly. But don't let all you have learned go away. High School and College are next. Many good schools have club stations.

But whatever you do..don't make the mistake of thinking the internet has a remote resemblance to ham radio.

73

Dan/W4NTI
O.k then take my word

I can receive as well

[W4INF]

30m is a good band. Anyone else enjoy it?

[w4nti]

Quote[/b] (W4INF @ Dec. 29 2007,19:20)]30m is a good band. Anyone else enjoy it?
DXC,

Didn't get a thing I said did YA? Whatever.

INF,

Yep 30 is a great band. Combo of 40 and 20. I get on there bout every evening.

Dan/W4NTI

[ai4ep]

nti --- you do not have to be so grouchy.

[K9STH]

This the LAST time I am going to issue a caution to CUT THE PERSONAL ATTACKS.

Heads WILL "roll" if the attacks do not immediately stop.

Glen, K9STH
One of the QRZ.com moderators

[w3dub]

Quote[/b] (ab8yy @ Dec. 30 2007,14:46)]Dan - he was talking about someone rudely QRMing his #QSO, he wasn't compaining about a pileup - as I stated previously. #I'm sure he is aware that QRM exists and it is something we have to live with. #With your attitude, we should all just bend over and accept the QRM from winlids, but that, I'm happy to say, is not happening.
It just seems like some people feel the need to get personal right away. It's this kind of attitude that really contributes to the problems across ham radio on so many levels. It's almost like an allegory to tons of other issues on QRM.

To me it sounds almost like some people are trying to justify QRM.. and automatically because DXC is 13, his opinion is discounted cause he's a "kid." Being 40, 50, 60 or whatever doesn't automatically make you wiser.

From what I've seen in this thread and elsewhere.. this is a pretty smart one at that.. and has said some more cogent and intelligent things on this board than a lot of people...

[ab8yy]

Quote[/b] (KB3JGU @ Dec. 30 2007,15:09)]Quote[/b] (ab8yy @ Dec. 30 2007,14:46)]Dan - he was talking about someone rudely QRMing his #QSO, he wasn't compaining about a pileup - as I stated previously. #I'm sure he is aware that QRM exists and it is something we have to live with. #With your attitude, we should all just bend over and accept the QRM from winlids, but that, I'm happy to say, is not happening.
It just seems like some people feel the need to get personal right away. It's this kind of attitude that really contributes to the problems across ham radio on so many levels. It's almost like an allegory to tons of other issues on QRM.

To me it sounds almost like some people are trying to justify QRM.. and automatically because DXC is 13, his opinion is discounted cause he's a "kid." Being 40, 50, 60 or whatever doesn't automatically make you wiser.

From what I've seen in this thread and elsewhere.. this is a pretty smart one at that.. and has said some more cogent and intelligent things on this board than a lot of people...
I completely agree and it was my point in the post to begin with. No attack was meant on anyone - just that he is a very intelligent operator and knows the difference. And you are absolutly right about about the appearance that QRM is to be considered acceptable just because it happens.

I'm done though. No point in arguing something that isn't arguable.

Steve

[k0dxc]

Quote[/b] (K9STH @ Dec. 30 2007,18:57)]This the LAST time I am going to issue a caution to CUT THE PERSONAL ATTACKS.

Heads WILL "roll" if the attacks do not immediately stop.

Glen, K9STH
One of the QRZ.com moderators
So touchy Glen, you know that I am learning from them though. It's kinda interesting watching isn't it. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[W4GPL]

Don't let them get you down. There are lots of great guys out there.

I'm also a fairly new HF operator, and an even newer CW operator. I accidentally caused QRM a few weeks ago after unknowingly bumping the VFO knob. Despite my brief explanation and my sincerest apologies, the two guys I interrupted were extremely rude. It made me feel like a real jerk and kept me away for a few days.

So there are LIDS out there and then there are just people who make the rare mistake. I think it's important we maintain a civil tone no matter who we're dealing with. Take the higher road.

[k0dxc]

Thanks for setting us back on track.

[w3dub]

Yeah.. but you can usually tell the difference between unintentional and blatant QRM. I've once or twice asked if a freq was in use.. heard nothing for 30 seconds, then called CQ and unkeyed and suddenly hear a QSO.

Everybody does it. As they say, (stuff) happens. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I agree with YY.. no point in arguing with some of these folks.

[k0dxc]

Ed,
Good luck with your vanity, I hope it works out and you love the call.

[w3dub]

Quote[/b] (k0dxc @ Dec. 31 2007,12:35)]Ed,
Good luck with your vanity, I hope it works out and you love the call.
are you reapplying for a new vanity after your move to match the call area?

[ai4ep]

interesting inofrmation to read...!!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[k0dxc]

The only way I would apply for a vanity is if when I get my extra k0dx is available or something. I don't want a 1 call because if propagation is bad it is harder to receive on CW.
0 calls are the easiest to receive on CW

[n5ack]

Calvin, I worked you back on October 13th and was shocked when you told me you were 13. You are a lot more mature than a lot of the people who have been on for years, but are too childish to hold a license. It's best just to turn the dial and find someone who is serious about ham radio and not have to listen to a CB'er who somehow got a ham license.

[ai4ep]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif Strange that I did not hear too many LIDS on hf frequencies last night ( new years eve ) .

Where were they ?

Were they all here, silently waiting ?

Were they out partying ?

...and just where are they today ( aint heard any yet on the radio ) ?

Did the GLOBAL WARMING MONSTER get them all ?

Did the FCC actually DO something ?

(sigh )....oh well. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[k0dxc]

Quote[/b] (n5ack @ Dec. 31 2007,21:12)]You are a lot more mature than a lot of the people who have been on for years, but are too childish to hold a license.
Are you saying I shouldn't have a license?

[n5ack]

Quote[/b] (k0dxc @ Jan. 01 2008,15:13)]Quote[/b] (n5ack @ Dec. 31 2007,21:12)]You are a lot more mature than a lot of the people who have been on for years, but are too childish to hold a license.
Are you saying I shouldn't have a license?
NO, you misunderstood me. You should have a license, are a great operator. I wish other older people were as good an operator as you are http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[k0dxc]

Oh. Thank you http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif