I really like Java

[kl7aj]

Well, yeah, I love the coffee too. But I'm talking about the Java 'puter language. I first kapiddled with it in 1995, before I knew much about C++. But it's gotten SO much better lately....and there are now all kinds of scientific/data acqusition plug-ins for it now. We should be writing some really cool ham apps in Java now.

I can see why Generalisimo Gates tried to kill Java...it runs on anything with electrons in it. But a great idea can never be kilt.

eric

[N2RJ]

There are quite a few ham apps in Java now, such as Satscape which runs great on my Linux machine at work.

[kq9j]

Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ Dec. 06 2007,11:50)]I can see why Generalisimo Gates tried to kill Java...it runs on anything with electrons in it. #But a great idea can never be kilt.

eric
Who needs cross-platform languages and apps if there is only one platform? That's Bills way of thinking..fortunately a M$-only computing world is never going to happen.

[n2jso]

I don't like coffee, it reminds me of burning garbage.

I agree regarding Java the programming language. When I first tried it in 1996 or so, I concluded that it was not yet ready for prime time. However, in the last few years, nearly all of my code has been written in Java. I find it a good general purpose language for most applications. For stuff that requires best performance (real time, or embedded code), I still prefer C.

The best feature of Java is the wide availability of libraries and add-ons for almost every purpose - much of it is free! Second best feature is, as KL7AJ said, it runs on darn near anything. At my job, we code and unit test on our Windows PCs, and the final product runs on servers under various flavors of Unix.

[w3dub]

Java is on its way out though. Most applications are looking at ways to bring newer better platforms such as AJAX to the desktop...

On the subject of Microsoft: the company has made HUGE strides in interoperability over the past three years alone. Trust me, I write about this on a daily basis.

MS circa the beginning of this decade and MS now are quite different. Google has stung them hard.

[k5okc]

If you like to program in Java, you really need to install the:

Netbeans 6.0

IDE. This is a great tool, and it is free. I had considered some expensive tools, but tried Netbeans 5.5 and it was great. They just released 6, so I installed it.

It's even better!

They are at www.netbeans.org I believe.

[kl7aj]

Quote[/b] (k5okc @ Dec. 06 2007,12:22)]If you like to program in Java, you really need to install the:

Netbeans 6.0

IDE. #This is a great tool, and it is free. #I had considered some expensive tools, but tried Netbeans 5.5 and it was great. #They just released 6, so I installed it.

It's even better!

They are at www.netbeans.org I believe.
Indeed...I'm fully beanified. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

eric

[KC5CSG]

I like my coffee like I like my women. Dark and bitter. I have no need for cream or sugar.

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (k5okc @ Dec. 06 2007,14:22)]If you like to program in Java, you really need to install the:

Netbeans 6.0

IDE. This is a great tool, and it is free. I had considered some expensive tools, but tried Netbeans 5.5 and it was great. They just released 6, so I installed it.

It's even better!

They are at www.netbeans.org I believe.
I much prefer Eclipse.

In fact that's pretty much what we use here where I work.

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (KB3JGU @ Dec. 06 2007,14:15)]Java is on its way out though. Most applications are looking at ways to bring newer better platforms such as AJAX to the desktop...
AJAX replacing Java?

I'm curious to know how that works. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[ab9lz]

Quote[/b] (KB3JGU @ Dec. 06 2007,12:15)]Java is on its way out though. Most applications are looking at ways to bring newer better platforms such as AJAX to the desktop...
Ajax typically has dependencies on server side code components to source data for the callbacks.

More often than not that server side code was written in java.

73 m/4

[ab9lz]

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Dec. 06 2007,12:29)]Quote[/b] (k5okc @ Dec. 06 2007,14:22)]If you like to program in Java, you really need to install the:

Netbeans 6.0

IDE. #This is a great tool, and it is free. #I had considered some expensive tools, but tried Netbeans 5.5 and it was great. #They just released 6, so I installed it.

It's even better!

They are at www.netbeans.org I believe.
I much prefer Eclipse.

In fact that's pretty much what we use here where I work.
We have over 300 Eclipse seats, however, I'm one of the lucky few that gets Together J.

Netbeans is classified as "podunk" and not permitted here, as are MSFT server side components.

73 m/4

[K0RGR]

I've mastered and forgotten Java several times.

Java is very powerful and promotes growth. So are certain fertilizers. Those who use it love it. I do think that it's grown up a lot in recent years.

Of course, I come from a peculiar programming background. I've studied and mastered a lot of different languages over the years. I loved BASIC, but of course, it was too easy to create 'spaghetti code' with its' 'GOTO' feature.

For business applications, RPG is still a powerful force if you work on a platform that supports it. Unfortunately, only one really does anymore, so all that fine code is not really portable. You can still learn RPG in a weekend, though, if you need to.

From a support standpoint, Java is frustrating. Most of the issues seem to revolve around missing or extraneous classes that have been added to the classpath. Those who love traversing the UNIX file system, 18-levels deep, looking for a missing comma, were born to debug Java.

But what you create is truly portable, and then some. I'd love to see more ham apps written in it - so it would run just as well on Linux as on Windoze.

[k5okc]

Quote[/b] (ab9lz @ Dec. 06 2007,14:53)]Netbeans is classified as "podunk" and not permitted here.
I've never been to New England.

We got rid of all our IBM stuff at work. After they butchered AIX, we went to Dell and Red Hat.

[k5okc]

EDIT: oops, probably not supposed to put code in a forum...

[kl7aj]

Quote[/b] (k5okc @ Dec. 06 2007,13:52)]Here's something I'm working on for a SoundCard modem:

/**
* SoundCard.java
*
* Created on November 24, 2007, 1:13 PM
*
* @version 1.0 24 November 2007
* @author Steve Sampson, K5OKC
*
* Public Domain (p) November 2007
*/

package modem;

import javax.sound.sampled.*;
import java.io.*;

public class SoundCard {
# #private AudioFormat format;
# #private TargetDataLine targetLine;
# #private SourceDataLine sourceLine;
# #private AudioInputStream sound;
# #
# #public void SoundCard() {
# #}
# #
# #/*
# # * #First you must call format to set parameters
# # */
# #
# #public boolean formatPCM(double samplerate) {
# # # #/*
# # # # * Encoding,
# # # # * Sample Rate (float),
# # # # * Sample Size (In Bits),
# # # # * Channels,
# # # # * Frame Size,
# # # # * Frame Rate (float),
# # # # * BigEndian (Boolean)
# # # # */
# # # #
# # # #format = new AudioFormat(AudioFormat.Encoding.PCM_SIGNED,
# # # # # # # #(float)samplerate,
# # # # # # # #16,
# # # # # # # #1,
# # # # # # # #2,
# # # # # # # #(float)samplerate,
# # # # # # # #false);
# #
# # # #return true;
# #}
# #
# #/*
# # * #Then you initialize the target and source lines
# # */
# #
# #public boolean initPCM() {
# # # #DataLine.Info targetInfo = new DataLine.Info(TargetDataLine.class, format);
# # # #DataLine.Info sourceInfo = new DataLine.Info(SourceDataLine.class, format);
# # # #
# # # #try {
# # # # # #sourceLine = (SourceDataLine)AudioSystem.getLine(sourceInfo);
# # # # # #sourceLine.open(format);
# # # # # #sourceLine.start();
# # # #}
# # # #catch (LineUnavailableException ex) {
# # # # # #return false;
# # # #}
# # # #
# # # #if(!AudioSystem.isLineSupported(targetInfo)) {
# # # # # #return false;
# # # #}
# # # #
# # # #try {
# # # # # #targetLine = (TargetDataLine)AudioSystem.getLine(targetInfo);
# # # # # #targetLine.open(format, targetLine.getBufferSize());
# # # # # #targetLine.start();
# # # #} # # # #
# # # #catch (LineUnavailableException e) {
# # # # # #return false;
# # # #}
# # # #
# # # #sound = new AudioInputStream(targetLine);
# # # #
# # # #return true;
# #}
# #
# #/*
# # * #You should flush and close the target and source lines when finished
# # */
# #
# #public void closePCM() {
# # # #targetLine.flush();
# # # #targetLine.stop();
# # # #targetLine.close();
# #}

# #/*
# # * #Data will be blocked by byteData.length bytes
# # */
# #
# #public int getPCM(byte[] byteData) {
# # # #int intBytesRead = 0;
# # # #
# # # #/*
# # # # * Read bytes into data byte array
# # # # */
# # # #
# # # #try {
# # # # # #intBytesRead = sound.read(byteData, 0, byteData.length);
# # # #} catch(IOException ex) {
# # # # # #return -1;
# # # #}
# # # #
# # # #return intBytesRead;
# #}
}
Someone told me that way to tell the difference between C++ source code and an e e cummings poem is that the e e cummings poem wont compile properly.

Actually that's not true....I think some of e e cummings poems DO compile correctly. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

eric

[N3RQ]

I was always feel like I am working with C++’s (my preferred language) redheaded stepchild when I am forced to use Java. Granted, I do close to zero web-related work, so that makes a huge difference.

[w3dub]

AJAX's back code is not 100% java.. in fact its actually javaSCRIPT... which is slightly different, but much less complex. Additionally, it incorporates a good deal of XML as well.

Java has increasingly fell out of favor however in development overall...if its java these days its in the Javascript form. I never said AJAX was replacing it, not sure where you got that... but these days Java on its own its a thing of the past.

Then again with the new proposals on javascript as of late.. its actually becoming more complicated like Java.. huge point of contention right now.

[W4INF]

AJ, ur code is purrdee! :-0 I program in ASP.NET, it is only dependent on a Windows server (not even IIS, I develop on Abyss) but it is pretty browser universal... The only drawback is it is not client based and there is not a way to interface with hardware. I do VB.NET for client side programming but not as much as web with ASP.NET.

Anyway, just throwing my .02 in.. My website is entirely written in ASP.NET with database access and the works... There are only about 8 pages, all content is stored in the DB, so when you pull a page 90% of the stuff you see, was drawn from the DB.. Not the images, but the HTML.

Andrew

[kl7aj]

Quote[/b] (W4INF @ Dec. 06 2007,17:13)]AJ, ur code is purrdee! :-0 I program in ASP.NET, it is only dependent on a Windows server (not even IIS, I develop on Abyss) but it is pretty browser universal... The only drawback is it is not client based and there is not a way to interface with hardware. I do VB.NET for client side programming but not as much as web with ASP.NET.

Anyway, just throwing my .02 in.. My website is entirely written in ASP.NET with database access and the works... There are only about 8 pages, all content is stored in the DB, so when you pull a page 90% of the stuff you see, was drawn from the DB.. Not the images, but the HTML.

Andrew
I din't write that....the other guy did. But I can purtify my code just like that with my 'fisshal code purtifier.


ERic

[k5okc]

Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ Dec. 06 2007,19:34)]I din't write that....the other guy did. # But I can purtify my code just like that with my 'fisshal code purtifier.


ERic
That's right, it's a button on netbeans that reformats and beautifies your code http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KA8NCR]

Quote[/b] (KB3JGU @ Dec. 06 2007,14:48)]AJAX's back code is not 100% java.. in fact its actually javaSCRIPT... which is slightly different, but much less complex. Additionally, it incorporates a good deal of XML as well.

Java has increasingly fell out of favor however in development overall...if its java these days its in the Javascript form. I never said AJAX was replacing it, not sure where you got that... but these days Java on its own its a thing of the past.

Then again with the new proposals on javascript as of late.. its actually becoming more complicated like Java.. huge point of contention right now.
For web pages, that's probably true for dealing with an efficient work flow on the page. But for desktop event driven programming, Java is used very widely and that won't change. There are simply things that you can not do with AJAX and will *never* be able to do.

The most widely used PSIP generator used for HDTV stations is written in Java. I've seen plenty of Java desktop applications that are used to configure equipment and controllers. Why? Because it is a foolproof way to get cross platform applications in the quickest amount of time.

And it's not entirely dead on the web either; SSL VPNs that are worth a damn use Java so *everyone* can use them, not just Windows users.

Java isn't going anywhere.

[ab9lz]

Quote[/b] (KB3JGU @ Dec. 06 2007,14:48)]Java has increasingly fell out of favor however in development overall...if its java these days its in the Javascript form.
From that statement, it's quite clear that you are not professional corporate programmer. I can't imagine what you are basing that statement on. Please provide some info to substantiate that claim.

[AE6IP]

Java is VisualBasic for people who would never admit that they write VisualBasic.

Given enough time, I suppose Sun will eventually make it into a usable language.

[KA8NCR]

Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ Dec. 06 2007,14:03)]Someone told me that way to tell the difference between C++ source code and an e e cummings poem is that the e e cummings poem wont compile properly.

Actually that's not true....I think some of e e cummings poems DO compile correctly. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

eric
Bjarne Stroustrup has been credited as saying "C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg."

Objective-C makes it harder still, but when it happens, your only indication is that you seem to be listing to one side.

[k5okc]

At my office, the programming team and management want to go to dot.net. Everything they want to do, like single sign-on authentication, and file system searches for the many web based applications we have, makes them goo-goo over dot.net.

Thus they all are learning C Pound (C#) instead of Java (sorry, I deprecate it by calling it a funny name, and my manager is getting tired of me saying it).

Anyway, I'm a Unix/Linux (some Oracle) Systems Administrator, so when they make the move to C Pound and Dot.Net, I will be retired (again).

[w3dub]

Java (not JS) might have use in the desktop environment, but thats about it. But widespread use of Java on the desktop? That's a little bit of a stretch... however, idespread use of Java in the form of JavaScript on the web? You bet.

As for .NET.. I think a lot of people are moving that way due to again ease of use and speed in getting things going. Coding in ASP vs ASP.NET for the web is like night and day. What took you a day to code in ASP takes far less than that in .NET.

Its been awhile since i've done webpages in .NET but man it sure made it easy.

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (KB3JGU @ Dec. 06 2007,21:22)]Java (not JS) might have use in the desktop environment, but thats about it. But widespread use of Java on the desktop? That's a little bit of a stretch... however, idespread use of Java in the form of JavaScript on the web? You bet.
Actually I've seen more Java on the web than ever before. #Its popularity is actually increasing (and I don't mean javascript, I mean actual java applets). #

It's tons better than ActiveX and a lot more secure.

Government websites seem to like Java a lot.

For example, the US Postal service uses a Java app to print postage online.

The FCC also uses Java for the ASR application (antenna structure registration.)#

Quote[/b] ]

As for .NET.. I think a lot of people are moving that way due to again ease of use and speed in getting things going. Coding in ASP vs ASP.NET for the web is like night and day. What took you a day to code in ASP takes far less than that in .NET.

Its been awhile since i've done webpages in .NET but man it sure made it easy.

At my workplace we're getting rid of our ASP stuff. #PHP seems like the way we're going, and I think it's a good move. #ASP is a pain in the neck, a proprietary Microsoft technology that can often leave huge, gaping security holes in its wake.

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (W4INF @ Dec. 06 2007,19:13)]AJ, ur code is purrdee! :-0 #I program in ASP.NET, it is only dependent on a Windows server (not even IIS, I develop on Abyss) but it is pretty browser universal... The only drawback is it is not client based and there is not a way to interface with hardware. #I do VB.NET for client side programming but not as much as web with ASP.NET.

Anyway, just throwing my .02 in.. My website is entirely written in ASP.NET with database access and the works... There are only about 8 pages, all content is stored in the DB, so when you pull a page 90% of the stuff you see, was drawn from the DB.. Not the images, but the HTML.

Andrew
I, on the other hand, prefer PHP.

It is much more like C and is very easy to understand and has great integration with MySQL.

[ab8ro]

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Dec. 05 2007,19:55)]Java is VisualBasic for people who would never admit that they write VisualBasic.

Given enough time, I suppose Sun will eventually make it into a usable language.
Interesting. In what way do you think that VB and Java are similar? What language do you like?

I think the reason people like(d) VB had more to do with how you developed applications than the language itself.

[N8CPA]

I've always wanted to visit Indonesia. But I haven't been there yet.

[KI4NGN]

Quote[/b] (kq9j @ Dec. 06 2007,12:07)]Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ Dec. 06 2007,11:50)]I can see why Generalisimo Gates tried to kill Java...it runs on anything with electrons in it. #But a great idea can never be kilt.

eric
Who needs cross-platform languages and apps if there is only one platform? #That's Bills way of thinking..fortunately a M$-only computing world is never going to happen.
Tell that to Apple!

After all of their funny commercials comparing their world with the MS Vista world, they've just announced MS Vista on their hardware! Saw the commerical for it on the tube a few days ago! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[KI4NGN]

I work everyday with C++ and C#.

C++ is tiring. C# is hot, and very similar to Java.

Java has it's place, but in the MS world it's C# all the way, and that's a big world.

Mike

[k5okc]

Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Dec. 07 2007,03:38)]Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Dec. 05 2007,19:55)]Java is VisualBasic for people who would never admit that they write VisualBasic.

Given enough time, I suppose Sun will eventually make it into a usable language.
Interesting. In what way do you think that VB and Java are similar? What language do you like?

I think the reason people like(d) VB had more to do with how you developed applications than the language itself.
VB was the Model-T of GUI. #Java is like the uni-body of GUI. #C# and .Net are the Minivan of GUI.

I would use C#, and it is available (along with .net) for Linux, I don't think there is a viable Open Source IDE yet.

When there is a Netbeans or Eclipse front-end to C#, then I think Java's days are numbered.

Sun is just too fragmented a company to adapt to what the critics really want.

[KA8NCR]

Quote[/b] (KB3JGU @ Dec. 06 2007,19:22)]Java (not JS) might have use in the desktop environment, but thats about it. But widespread use of Java on the desktop? That's a little bit of a stretch... however, idespread use of Java in the form of JavaScript on the web? You bet.
It depends on the situation. IBM put out a lot of Java applications that ran on the desktop to help with support. I remember that their Windows Client Access for the AS/400 was full of problems, but the Java desktop app worked like a charm.

I see a lot of Java desktop apps because the application might run on a Windows box, might be run on a Linux box or might be on a QNX.

[ab9lz]

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Dec. 06 2007,18:55)]Java is VisualBasic for people who would never admit that they write VisualBasic.

Given enough time, I suppose Sun will eventually make it into a usable language.
That's statement shows clear naievte of programming languages in general. The two paradigms are completely different.

While java isn't my personal choice when coding for fun, I can say with some authority that if you have ever done any kind of business with any of the large banks, be it retail or investment banking, it is more than likely that that your dollars have been transacted by a server side java application or two (or ten).

73 m/4

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (ab9lz @ Dec. 07 2007,09:36)]Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Dec. 06 2007,18:55)]Java is VisualBasic for people who would never admit that they write VisualBasic.

Given enough time, I suppose Sun will eventually make it into a usable language.
That's statement shows clear naievte of programming languages in general. The two paradigms are completely different.

While java isn't my personal choice when coding for fun, I can say with some authority that if you have ever done any kind of business with any of the large banks, be it retail or investment banking, it is more than likely that that your dollars have been transacted by a server side java application or two (or ten).

73 m/4
Nevermind marty, he's trying to show us that he's someone important and knows a little about programming. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[w3dub]

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Dec. 07 2007,00:43)]Actually I've seen more Java on the web than ever before. Its popularity is actually increasing (and I don't mean javascript, I mean actual java applets).

It's tons better than ActiveX and a lot more secure.

Government websites seem to like Java a lot.

For example, the US Postal service uses a Java app to print postage online.

The FCC also uses Java for the ASR application (antenna structure registration.)

At my workplace we're getting rid of our ASP stuff. PHP seems like the way we're going, and I think it's a good move. ASP is a pain in the neck, a proprietary Microsoft technology that can often leave huge, gaping security holes in its wake.
I'd agree with you on PHP vs. ASP... I have seen that myself. Although on your Java comment.. the only commonly used site I know right now that makes good use of actual Java is the NWS site for radar loops. I don't know of many else.

(Sun would like you to think different, HI HI)

Are you sure its not standard ASP? I was under the impression that most of the security issues occurred more frequently in the old version over .NET...

[kl7aj]

Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Dec. 07 2007,01:38)]Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Dec. 05 2007,19:55)]Java is VisualBasic for people who would never admit that they write VisualBasic.

Given enough time, I suppose Sun will eventually make it into a usable language.
Interesting. In what way do you think that VB and Java are similar? What language do you like?

I think the reason people like(d) VB had more to do with how you developed applications than the language itself.
Actually VB is closer to the QT Widget set. (Not sure which came first, I was doing QT widgets before I learned VB)

Eric

[ab9lz]

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Dec. 07 2007,07:55)]Nevermind marty, he's trying to show us that he's someone important and knows a little about programming. # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Better than workin the help desk like you do. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[n2jso]

Quote[/b] (ab9lz @ Dec. 07 2007,09:36)]While java isn't my personal choice when coding for fun, I can say with some authority that if you have ever done any kind of business with any of the large banks, be it retail or investment banking, it is more than likely that that your dollars have been transacted by a server side java application or two (or ten).
This is true in Insurance as well, at least at my employer. The core transaction code and databases still reside on Mainframes, written in COBOL (some of the code goes back to the 1960s!). But there are many layers between the end user and the mainframe, and it's almost all Java.

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (ab9lz @ Dec. 07 2007,11:28)]Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Dec. 07 2007,07:55)]Nevermind marty, he's trying to show us that he's someone important and knows a little about programming. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Better than workin the help desk like you do. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Actually sometimes I wish I was working the helpdesk.

Those guys have an easy job.

BTW, I am not a developer either.

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (KB3JGU @ Dec. 07 2007,10:27)]I'd agree with you on PHP vs. ASP... I have seen that myself. Although on your Java comment.. the only commonly used site I know right now that makes good use of actual Java is the NWS site for radar loops. I don't know of many else.
FCC ASR I know definitely makes use of Java (not Javascript, but a Java applet).

USPS also makes use of Java. Try printing a postage label online. It's a Java applet.

Quote[/b] ]Are you sure its not standard ASP? I was under the impression that most of the security issues occurred more frequently in the old version over .NET...

Pretty sure it's .NET.

Most of these have to do with the general insecurity of MS SQL server as well.

[w3dub]

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Dec. 07 2007,15:05)]FCC ASR I know definitely makes use of Java (not Javascript, but a Java applet).

USPS also makes use of Java. Try printing a postage label online. It's a Java applet.

Quote[/b] ]Are you sure its not standard ASP? I was under the impression that most of the security issues occurred more frequently in the old version over .NET...

Pretty sure it's .NET.

Most of these have to do with the general insecurity of MS SQL server as well.
SQL server is pretty bad, I'll give you that. But on its face, ASP.NET should be overall pretty secure.

I really think the central problem was a lot of these technologies came at a time when security wasn't a huge issue. Lazy coding is really what it comes down to.

If you don't mind me asking, where do you work?

[W1GUH]

I liked some of the stuff that's do-able with Java, but then learned C# and liked it better. #I think the way C# does a "complie just in time" is fundamentally better than how Java does that code (I forget the name of it...something do do with bytes?).

Also, Jave seemed to be in constant deprecation. #Is that still true?

In the Java case, I never thought the way they did "Write once, run everywhere" was anymore than word play. #It doesn't run everywhere...you need the runtime envorinment, and even then, it still doesn't have the efficiency of compiled code. #Now, if the runtime environment actually compiled the code...that'd be something.

And I believe that C# does exactly that...it compiles the code and then runs it. #But if it's going to do that, why not just compile it and leave a .exe? #C#, also, requires a runtime environment, but at least published code includes it.

[k5okc]

Quote[/b] (W1GUH @ Dec. 07 2007,15:19)]it compiles the code and then runs it. #But if it's going to do that, why not just compile it and leave a .exe?
The .Net virtual machine is supposed to virtualize the hardware, and provide security.

Sort of like .Net runs as root, and applications run as the user, only that's too simplistic.

[W4INF]

Quote[/b] (k5okc @ Dec. 05 2007,19:57)]Thus they all are learning C Pound (C#) i... <snip>
Thats C Sharp sir, C# - Like in music.

HTH,
Andrew

[N0NB]

Ack! No JAVA on my desktop, please.

Its horrid, ugly, UI with it's non-integrated visual is as appealing in 2007 as a Motif app which I also avoid like the plague. Write the app in Qt or GTK+, then I at least can use a common theme on both toolkits and maintain a unified desktop look and feel.

I tolerate Fldigi's look because it's the best digital app for Linux and KDE can apply its color scheme to FLT which helps a lot.

[KD8COO]

Quote[/b] (W1GUH @ Dec. 07 2007,13:19)]I liked some of the stuff that's do-able with Java, but then learned C# and liked it better. #I think the way C# does a "complie just in time" is fundamentally better than how Java does that code (I forget the name of it...something do do with bytes?).
Java "compiles" to byte-code (much like the old "p-code" systems did way back in the day). However, the JRE has a JIT compiler as well. Well written Java code is comparable in speed with well written C compiled code. Can't compare with C octothorpe, I don't do the .Net disaster (errrr, platform) ;)

My favorite languages are C and x86 assembly, but I also enjoy Modula-2 and Java. I don't enjoy programming for the web, or for databases. Stand-alone apps are much more fun. Since it's not what I do to make money anymore (moved from programming to support/sysadmin), I can do what I like and not get stuck writing web/database code all day long. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[K0RGR]

I was going to ask about PHP - it's available for IBM's iSeries now along with MySQL - both fairly radical departures for Big Blue's database engine.

I had to learn Perl a couple years ago in a very brief time, and was proud to actually be able to create something useful with it. But, I think that language has become ancient history, too.
I was involved in some product testing for a major new version of some of our middleware, and the big test suite was written in Perl - to modify or create a new test, you had to be able to write the routines in Perl.

Where I work, I see a lot of Java happening, but mostly part of Websphere. Java drives a lot commercial transactions out there, including some huge companies.

One of the reasons that Java has become so popular is that there are thousands of crackerjack Java coders in Bangalore willing to work for a few dollars an hour, and thinking they've got it good.

[K1MDC]

Quote[/b] (W1GUH @ Dec. 07 2007,13:19)]In the Java case, I never thought the way they did &quot;Write once, run everywhere&quot; was anymore than word play. It doesn't run everywhere...you need the runtime envorinment, and even then, it still doesn't have the efficiency of compiled code.
I find the phrase &quot;Write once, debug everywhere&quot; to be more appropriate for Java applications. I've just about given up on making Java applets. I only use the language server side, or for applications where I'm going to have control over the OS and virtual machine. It's really not the panacea that it's been touted.

I personally like C# and .Net. If I need cross-platform compatibility, I create a web application. So far, that's the web is the only truly universal platform available.

[AE6IP]

Quote[/b] (ab9lz @ Dec. 07 2007,07:36)]Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Dec. 06 2007,18:55)]Java is VisualBasic for people who would never admit that they write VisualBasic.

Given enough time, I suppose Sun will eventually make it into a usable language.
That's statement shows clear naievte of programming languages in general. The two paradigms are completely different.

While java isn't my personal choice when coding for fun, I can say with some authority that if you have ever done any kind of business with any of the large banks, be it retail or investment banking, it is more than likely that that your dollars have been transacted by a server side java application or two (or ten).

73 m/4
&quot;paradigm&quot; has nothing to do with it, and Kuhn should probably have been shot for making that word popular.

And before Java, those bank applications would have been written in Cobol. This proves, what, precisely?

That's right, Java is the lowest barrier-to-entry language available for professional UI applications. That is, it is VisualBasic for programmers would never admit they'd programmed in VisualBasic.

[AE6IP]

Quote[/b] (W1GUH @ Dec. 07 2007,13:19)]I liked some of the stuff that's do-able with Java, but then learned C# and liked it better. I think the way C# does a &quot;complie just in time&quot; is fundamentally better than how Java does that code (I forget the name of it...something do do with bytes?).

Also, Jave seemed to be in constant deprecation. Is that still true?
Java parses code to 'byte-code', which is 'architectural neutral' and interpreted by the Java Virtual Machine (JVM.)

and yes, it's still in constant deprecation.

As I said, eventually, SUN will make it a usable language.

Unless they make it into a camel first.

[kf6rdn]

I spilled Java on my KB once.. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I'm not a programmer, (I'm a sysadmin) aside from shell scripts and some perl scripting for utility. But I am really beginning to NOT like JAVA. Always seems to crap out, freeze etc.

It's used for some Windows video media encoding servers in broadcast (flipfactory) as well as alot of config interfaces for storage like EMC, Navisphere, fibre switches etc. I think if you use the web interface for cisco crap it uses it, but not sure I use CL for that.
Invariably if I switch from one of these devices to another on whatever workstation I'm using the JAVA craps out and I have to reload the browser.
It's gotten so I use firefox for general use, and load IE when I need to manage java things.

[ab9lz]

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Dec. 09 2007,23:46)]Quote[/b] (ab9lz @ Dec. 07 2007,07:36)]Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Dec. 06 2007,18:55)]Java is VisualBasic for people who would never admit that they write VisualBasic.

Given enough time, I suppose Sun will eventually make it into a usable language.
That's statement shows clear naievte of programming languages in general. The two paradigms are completely different.

While java isn't my personal choice when coding for fun, I can say with some authority that if you have ever done any kind of business with any of the large banks, be it retail or investment banking, it is more than likely that that your dollars have been transacted by a server side java application or two (or ten).

73 m/4
&quot;paradigm&quot; has nothing to do with it, and Kuhn should probably have been shot for making that word popular.

And before Java, those bank applications would have been written in Cobol. This proves, what, precisely?

That's right, Java is the lowest barrier-to-entry language available for professional UI applications. #That is, it is VisualBasic for programmers would never admit they'd programmed in VisualBasic.
Java is not used as a UI platform here, it is strictly used server side, so the VB comparison does not apply. Java's strengths lie in it's exception processing, and the relative insulation the JVM provides between the application code, and the hardware... in short it is much harder to hang a server with java, than with C++.

And, yes it is easier to use, not a bad thing when you have hundreds of developers of varying abilities working on the same class of projects.

If it weren't java it would be in C++*, and that would be more expensive to develop and deploy as you would have to write to a class of servers (you can def your way around this, but it's messy).

*cobol hasn't been used here in two decades.

73 m/4

[k4avl]

I played around with python for a while about a year, I guess many of these newer languages share similarities.
Python also has that &quot;try&quot; command as seen above.
(another one I'm fairly good at is php/mysql)
Python is an interpreted language, the interpreter is built into the OS (in the case of Linux, as scripts written in python are ubiquitous in Linux distros), and you can add the interpreter &amp; libraries into windows OS's as well.
You just save the source file &amp; run it, no compiling. There are front end scripting components you can use (I've had good experiences with Tkinter), with which you can create a GUI's for your programs. Tkinter is old, there are newer ones like Wx-widgets, etc.
With these tools you can create cross-platform apps with front ends as well, and it's not that difficult.
I put a few of these on a sourceforge project (Automagic) a while back. I use one of these all the time on Linux, it both copies DVD's or creates one from a compilation of one or more avi's or mpg's. These apps though are basically just front ends for more difficult command-line scripts.

[KB1JCY]

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Dec. 07 2007,07:00)]Quote[/b] (ab9lz @ Dec. 07 2007,11:28)]
Better than workin the help desk like you do. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Actually sometimes I wish I was working the helpdesk.

Those guys have an easy job.
*cough*

Have you had to deal with being the bitch of a enterprise-class customer who's SunFire V40z disks would not re-sync after a hot swap?

&quot;Thank you sir, may I have another&quot;

Easy job, HAW!

[AE6IP]

Quote[/b] (ab9lz @ Dec. 10 2007,08:23)]Java is not used as a UI platform here, it is strictly used server side, so the VB comparison does not apply. Java's strengths lie in it's exception processing, and the relative insulation the JVM provides between the application code, and the hardware... in short it is much harder to hang a server with java, than with C++.

Java's exception handling is weak when compared to, say Eiffel. It's one of the things that still needs tinkering with in the language.

I've found tomcat quiet capable of hanging servers.

C++ on the other hand is an abomination.

Quote[/b] ]And, yes it is easier to use, not a bad thing when you have hundreds of developers of varying abilities working on the same class of projects.

You have just described the single largest problem in the software industry.

Quote[/b] ]
If it weren't java it would be in C++*, and that would be more expensive to develop and deploy as you would have to write to a class of servers (you can def your way around this, but it's messy).

Not sure what you mean by &quot;class of servers&quot; in your argot, but there's no defending C++.

My current annoyance with Java is that it's not very good for supporting several generations of deployed application from the same source tree. The lack of a facility equivalent to but safer than the C preprocessor to allow specialization at &quot;compile&quot; time rather than runtime makes it unwieldy to maintain the same ap with multiple variants, especially with the simple minded source control systems we have around these days.

[KB3NDN]

Quote[/b] (k5okc @ Dec. 06 2007,07:22)]If you like to program in Java, you really need to install the:

Netbeans 6.0

IDE. #This is a great tool, and it is free. #I had considered some expensive tools, but tried Netbeans 5.5 and it was great. #They just released 6, so I installed it.

It's even better!

They are at www.netbeans.org I believe.
I can't stand netbeans yeah its a great IDE but it is so fat it drives me crazy. if java could make an ide that runs as light as VS i would be set. #might program in eclipse ive heard it is pretty good.

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Dec. 11 2007,00:24)]
Quote[/b] ]

C++ on the other hand is an abomination.


What is it you don't like about C++ ? I have used it is little more than C with classes and some enhancements. Now I'll admit, using C or C++ requires one to be somewhat more careful than with Java or some of the &quot;scripting langauges&quot; like Perl, etc. However, I have found C++'s OOP format particularly useful, particularly for keeping large programs better organized where as C would have gotten somewhat messy. Plus there is the added feature of reusability that an OOP langauge makes somewhat easier.

Now granted, there are probably many projects where C++ is not the best choice. And Java is probably safer in the hands of an inexperienced or &quot;weekend programmer&quot;. However, I would say that calling C++ an abomination is a bit extreme.

[AE6IP]

It sounds like you use C++ in a way similar to Andy Koenig's &quot;C++ as a better C&quot; approach. It's fine if you look at it that way and only use the handful of features that improve on C as a procedural language.

But C++ as a programming language has a long list of problems, including, but not limited to:

Bjarne's insistence on similarity to but not identical semantics with C meant both that known easily fixable problems with C, such as order of evaluation rules leading to too much need of parenthesis, were not fixed, while subtle bugs are introduced because programmers using both languages get mixed up about which semantic applies where.

primary data types are not objects.

type promotion rules are hazardous. In particular the rule that a constructor that takes a single argument causes automatic promotion of the argument's type to the classes type cause no end of problems.

default constructors are invariably wrong.

inheritance properties are poorly thought out and confusing.

templates were a very late attempt to add generics and fail miserably.

the lack of basic support in the language for common data structures, followed by grafting STL onto the language was a disaster.

C++ namespaces are too complex to use well and too simple to use effectively. Dennis Ritchie had a much simpler naming idea that never made it into any of the production versions of C that the C++ committee really should have used.
The exception model is poorly thought out, particularly the inability to handle exceptions in constructors without leaking memory.

There's no thread model.

Too many people think that multiple inheritance is a problem when, used correctly, as in Koenig's AST with interfaces model, it's an improvement over C.

Likewise, operator overloading, if used with proper discipline can be a good thing, but because the lexicon of existing operators is too small and there's no way to add operators to the language, overloading, in use, is often a bad thing.

et cetera.

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Dec. 13 2007,23:33)]
Quote[/b] ]
It sounds like you use C++ in a way similar to Andy Koenig's &quot;C++ as a better C&quot; approach. #It's fine if you look at it that way and only use the handful of features that improve on C as a procedural language.


Pretty much the case. I have used some of the enhancements that C++ provides mainly inheritance, multiple inheritance, references, operator overloading, overriding member functions, etc. I look at classes in C++ in a similar way to structures in C, a convenient way to keep data and functions pertaining to an implementation of some process well organized. Encapsulating the whole shebang in a class makes life a lot easier. So say i write some process to analyze a system of equations (an arbitrary example). I dump the necessary data and functions into a class build a library out of it and link it into any application I need, share it with others, etc. I try and keep my classes and libraries small and focused towards performing a single task. I'd rather link several smaller libraries into an application, each library containing the specific functionality that I need for the problem at hand rather than link one large library that's bloated with lots of junk that I don't need. It seems to keep applications smaller and more streamlined this way. The familiar OOP concept of abstraction comes in handy as well. It's easier to modify the implementation of a class without affecting the entire application and/or the manner in which the user interfaces it within the application.

I guess it can be said that I use C++ (or similar OOP langauges) in a straightforward and simple manner. I am not trying to do anything fancy or anything that could not be done with a procedural language. In that sense I never really understood if I was using C++ as an OOP language in the way it was intended to be used or not.

As far as the problems you list I have only encountered a small number of them in my usage. By &quot;lack of a thread model&quot; I presume you mean a built in way of dealing with threaded apps ? The few times I ran into that problem I had to import my own thread implementation which meant extra work and could have saved time if C++ had some kind of standard thread model. And yeah, subtle differences between C and C++ can be confusing at times. There are things that will work in C++ that will produce errors in C and vice versa. Keeping in mind which is which can be confusing, particularly for someone like me who doesn't spend a whole lot of time programming and writing code...which I consider a blessing.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[AE6IP]

Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Dec. 14 2007,14:48)]By &quot;lack of a thread model&quot; I presume you mean a built in way of dealing with threaded apps ?
Yup.

multithreaded application development is hard.

C++ has no support for it.

Java sucks, because it has support, but it's poorly thought out.

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Dec. 15 2007,00:31)]Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Dec. 14 2007,14:48)]By &quot;lack of a thread model&quot; I presume you mean a built in way of dealing with threaded apps ?
Yup.

multithreaded application development is hard.

C++ has no support for it.

Java sucks, because it has support, but it's poorly thought out.
Well, I got my own implementation of threading working withing the context of a C++ program that I wrote once. It took a little work but it did exactly what I needed. And it was the first time I'd ever done such a thing. However, it was a relatively simple threading app so there weren't too many synchronization issues.

[KA8NCR]

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Dec. 13 2007,23:33)]It sounds like you use C++ in a way similar to Andy Koenig's &quot;C++ as a better C&quot; approach. It's fine if you look at it that way and only use the handful of features that improve on C as a procedural language.

But C++ as a programming language has a long list of problems, including, but not limited to:
As much as it pained me to learn Objective-C, it really makes a lot more sense as opposed to C++.

[N3RQ]

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Dec. 14 2007,01:31)]multithreaded application development is hard.

C++ has no support for it.

Java sucks, because it has support, but it's poorly thought out.
Ada supported generic programming and multi-threading from the start, but it never caught on outside of the defense community. I have yet to find a programming language that contains constructs to protect against priority inversion.

[AE6IP]

Quote[/b] (N3RQ @ Dec. 20 2007,20:27)]Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Dec. 14 2007,01:31)]multithreaded application development is hard.

C++ has no support for it.

Java sucks, because it has support, but it's poorly thought out.
Ada supported generic programming and multi-threading from the start, but it never caught on outside of the defense community.
It never really caught on inside the Defense community, either.

It was supposed to be the one true language, but that requirement fell by the way side pretty early.

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Dec. 20 2007,22:56)]Quote[/b] (N3RQ @ Dec. 20 2007,20:27)]Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Dec. 14 2007,01:31)]multithreaded application development is hard.

C++ has no support for it.

Java sucks, because it has support, but it's poorly thought out.
Ada supported generic programming and multi-threading from the start, but it never caught on outside of the defense community.
It never really caught on inside the Defense community, either.

It was supposed to be the one true language, but that requirement fell by the way side pretty early.
Thats because I doubt there is one true &quot;langauge&quot;. Which is why I don't like it when colleges stress langauge courses. More important is the ability to design good efficient algorithms and an understanding of how to test such designs for efficiency and performance and then translate them into good code. Lots of &quot;programmers&quot; fail miserably in that department. There are some good ones out there who are worth there weight in gold. The rest are hardly worth a damn except maybe for making GUI's or building a web page.