Jews don't need to be in Israel

[kc2orw]

I was listening to the hourly News update about the Annapolis talk and that the Resolution was to be withdrawn from the UN and that efforts would continue without UN participation. Then I heard a radio ad from some Jewish anti Zionist organization about the Jews not needing to be in Israel as a requirement of the Torah. Coincidence... I suppose... I looked the URL mentioned in the radio ad here it is.
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/news/currentarticle.cfm?id=83

Can't say that there wouldn't be less trouble in the world if there was no Israel around...

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ Nov. 29 2007,16:15)]Can't say that there wouldn't be less trouble in the world if there was no Israel around...
1) You could put any number of countries in where you have "Israel"

2) There's a long long list of countries and peoples that have been trying to do just that for several thousand years... no luck yet. Famous book written about it, if I remember correctly.

[K1VSK]

It is more that the converse is true - there would be less trouble in the world if there were no fundamentalist Islamic state(s) like Iran with their current hitler-clone leader.

[WA6MHZ]

Guess I will have to sit through the movie EXODUS to find out what all happened. Saw a bit of it but it was so LONG!!! Something about the Jews returning to Israel in 1947 with Paul Newman and Eva Marie Saint

[kc2orw]

Quote[/b] (K1VSK @ Nov. 30 2007,18:26)]It is more that the converse is true - there would be less trouble in the world if there were no fundamentalist Islamic state(s) like Iran with their current hitler-clone leader.
True but one country formed in 1947 might be easier to do away with then all the difficult and troublesome Islamic countries...
I sometimes wonder that I might see the, hopefully non violent, demise of Israel in my lifetime...

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ Nov. 29 2007,16:32)]Quote[/b] (K1VSK @ Nov. 30 2007,18:26)]It is more that the converse is true - there would be less trouble in the world if there were no fundamentalist Islamic state(s) like Iran with their current hitler-clone leader.
True but one country formed in 1947 might be easier to do away with then all the difficult and troublesome Islamic countries...
I sometimes wonder that I might see the, hopefully non violent, demise of Israel in my lifetime...
I thought that it wasn't necessarily the Israelis that were the problem, but the poor downtrodden homeless Arab Palestinians?

Of course, this ignores the facts of history, that what is now called Jordan was in fact supposed to be the Arab Palestinian homeland (east of the Jordan river) and that the land west of the Jordan was to be for Jewish Palestinians. #(See Sykes-Picot Agreement, subsequent 1923 British division of land along the Jordan, creation of "Trans Jordan"). Wonder why the Jordanians kicked out the PLO in 1970?

There's a lot of history here that the mainstream media won't tell you about, because it doesn't support the political agenda...

[K1VSK]

Recognizing that the history of this conflict goes back literally thousands of years, it drives me up the wall when our media characterizes anyone as "occupying" the country as though it was a recent or short-term issue.
The only way anyone would ever see a demise to Israel is in the aftermath of a holocaust far worse (and more radioactive) than the last one in which case the poor Palestinians can have the remnants.

[wv6z]

Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ Nov. 29 2007,16:32)]True but one country formed in 1947 might be easier to do away with then all the difficult and troublesome Islamic countries...
But I thought nukes were supposed to be reasonably priced on the black market now.

[n2ize]

Israel is the greatest country in the world. Israel has every right to be where it is. If Israel falls the whole world falls.

[kb2vxa]

These Jews haven't read the New Testament so naturally they're ignorant of what Jesus said about the Jews returning to Palestine and "This generation shall not pass until these things are fulfilled." Judaism and it's daughters Christianity and Islam acknowledge his wisdom and prophesy so why are they so ignorant?

Read it for yourself, I can't quote chapter and verse but I can tell you the question and answer came at the conclusion of The Sermon On The Mount just before they departed across the Sea of Galilee.

Then there was John of Patmos who predicted this nation Israel would be "a thorn in the side of nations round about" and just ain't it the truth. Go ahead and call me anti semitic for quoting one of your own, such is the last gasp of a dieing man grasping at straws.

[WB2WIK]

Quote[/b] (kb2vxa @ Nov. 30 2007,20:55)]These Jews haven't read the New Testament so naturally they're ignorant of what Jesus said about the Jews returning to Palestine and "This generation shall not pass until these things are fulfilled." Judaism and it's daughters Christianity and Islam acknowledge his wisdom and prophesy so why are they so ignorant?

Read it for yourself, I can't quote chapter and verse but I can tell you the question and answer came at the conclusion of The Sermon On The Mount just before they departed across the Sea of Galilee.

Then there was John of Patmos who predicted this nation Israel would be "a thorn in the side of nations round about" and just ain't it the truth. Go ahead and call me anti semitic for quoting one of your own, such is the last gasp of a dieing man grasping at straws.
Old testament, new testament...both written by ordinary people having something to write with.

There would be nothing in the Torah about Israel, since the Torah predates Israel by thousands of years.

There's no requirement for Jews to ever visit Israel; hell, 61 years ago there wasn't any such country. The only relevant thing about Israel is that it's open for Jews from anywhere in the world to settle if they wish. Not so many have done that.

Jews born in what is now Israel prior to 1947 have their place of birth (listed on their passports) as "Palestine."

Funny, huh?

I only wish it was funny.

WB2WIK/6

[k2vhw]

With all the diatribe on the issue of Israel's existence and call for its demise, why is it that no condemnation is given to the war-mongering states from which Israel's demise is fomented?
Take a better look at the death and destruction brought upon by Islamic extremists all over the globe, not simply against Israel. What have you to say about the holocaust in Africa? Who's to blame there? Israel? Nay, study the situation better before making such a simplistic (and anti-semitic) resolutions to a very complicated problem. Israel is NOT the problem and if Israel were not in existence there would still be death and destruction from the same hands that bring it upon Israel. Warmongering has existed in the middle east since recorded history began and would not be eliminated with the removal of Israel.

Even the United States is now the target of those war mongers. Would you say the same goes for the USA as for Israel?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Do you suppose the elimination of the USA would end the death and destruction??? # Think, man, think. Learn ALL the facts and stop with the simplistic 'fixes'.

[K0RGR]

Nobody in his right mind proposes eliminating Israel. Nor will we stand by while the 2.5 million Palestinians march the 7.1 million Israelis into the sea. Of course, 1.4 million of those Israelis are Arabs.

Jews have lived in that region for thousands of years, though it has been under Muslim control for most of that time. Over many centuries, Jews migrated to that region - legally - and were tolerated by the Muslims and Christians living there.

The British really pushed the idea of a Jewish homeland in the 19th century. But it was, until the formation of the Israeli state, on the basis that the Jews would live there in harmony with those already living there.

I honestly think that the U.N., who took up the torch from the British and created Israel, fouled up enormously by not clearly settling the issue of non-Jews living there. Claims that the British created Trans-Jordan for the Arabs just don't square with the history. And even if they did, who were the British to decide to kick the Arabs out of Israel? That was never their policy.

I think the only answer is to pay reparations to the displaced. But that must be the end of it. It probably won't end the conflict, but it at least would put the West back on the high moral ground. If the Palestinians cling to their wish to destroy Israel, then the Palestinians will have to be dispersed.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ Nov. 30 2007,15:15)]Can't say that there wouldn't be less trouble in the world if there was no Israel around...
Annie Semmatical?
How about:
Can't say that there wouldn't be less trouble in the world if there was no BIG DOPE to insure Israel around...

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (K1VSK @ Nov. 30 2007,15:26)]It is more that the converse is true - there would be less trouble in the world if there were no fundamentalist Islamic state(s) like Iran with their current hitler-clone leader.
au contraire my friend, for Islam is God's answer to the Jews.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Nov. 30 2007,21:56)]if Israel were not in existence there would still be death and destruction from the same hands that bring it upon Israel.
Yes, and who cares, at least WE wouldn't be inextricably linked to it.

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Nov. 30 2007,00:52)]Claims that the British created Trans-Jordan for the Arabs just don't square with the history. And even if they did, who were the British to decide to kick the Arabs out of Israel? That was never their policy.

I think the only answer is to pay reparations to the displaced. But that must be the end of it. It probably won't end the conflict, but it at least would put the West back on the high moral ground. If the Palestinians cling to their wish to destroy Israel, then the Palestinians will have to be dispersed.
Huh? The Balfour Declaration was the British basis for the creation of a Jewish state, and it was to be in Palestine. Why then would they, when the created Transjordan, put an Arab on the throne of Transjordan, later Jordan? They had already negotiated this as terms for the Arabs support, outlined in the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence.

Found a good explanation at Wikipedia for the situation they were in:
Quote[/b] ]
In the Sykes-Picot agreement of 1916, Britain and France had proposed to divide the Middle East between them into spheres of influence, with "Palestine" as an international enclave.[2]

After the Sykes-Picot agreement of 1916, the British had made two promises regarding the territory in the Middle East it was expecting to acquire. Britain had promised the local Arabs, through Lawrence, independence for a united Arab country covering most of the Arab Middle East, in exchange for their support of the British; and in the Balfour Declaration of 1917 had promised to create and foster a Jewish national home in Palestine. The British had, in the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence, previously promised the Hashemite family lordship over most land in the region in return for their support. At the same time, British interest in Zionism dates to the rise in importance of the British Empire’s South Asian enterprises in the early 19th century, concurrent with "The Great Game" and planning for the Suez Canal




So basically they had made promises to at least one side, and had internal interests in the other side.

Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine) is a link to a decent explanation of some of the history, specifically the British involvement.

[KP3FT]

Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ Nov. 30 2007,21:06)]Quote[/b] (kb2vxa @ Nov. 30 2007,20:55)]These Jews haven't read the New Testament so naturally they're ignorant of what Jesus said about the Jews returning to Palestine and "This generation shall not pass until these things are fulfilled." Judaism and it's daughters Christianity and Islam acknowledge his wisdom and prophesy so why are they so ignorant?

Read it for yourself, I can't quote chapter and verse but I can tell you the question and answer came at the conclusion of The Sermon On The Mount just before they departed across the Sea of Galilee.

Then there was John of Patmos who predicted this nation Israel would be "a thorn in the side of nations round about" and just ain't it the truth. Go ahead and call me anti semitic for quoting one of your own, such is the last gasp of a dieing man grasping at straws.
Old testament, new testament...both written by ordinary people having something to write with.

There would be nothing in the Torah about Israel, since the Torah predates Israel by thousands of years.

There's no requirement for Jews to ever visit Israel; hell, 61 years ago there wasn't any such country. The only relevant thing about Israel is that it's open for Jews from anywhere in the world to settle if they wish. Not so many have done that.

Jews born in what is now Israel prior to 1947 have their place of birth (listed on their passports) as "Palestine."

Funny, huh?

I only wish it was funny.

WB2WIK/6
The Torah doesn't pre-date Israel by thousands of years. The land of Israel was promised to Abraham's descendants all the way back in Genesis. Moses, who wrote the Torah, actually physically saw this "Promised Land" but died before entering into it. His "second-in-command", Joshua then led the Israelites into the land where they lived. They did not establish Kings until much later, and it was after the third king, King Solomon, that the nation of Israel was divided into two Jewish Houses: the House of Israel and the House of Judah. Judah consisted of two of the twelve tribes of Israel, and the House of Israel consisted of the remaining 10 tribes. After that, they were both eventually conquered by other nations and led into captivity. The nation of Israel ceased to exist until thousands of years later. It wasn't until 1948 that Israel became a nation again. Throughout the Torah and the rest of the Old Testament, the captivity and return of Israel was predicted, in specific detail. Israel is one of the greatest proofs of the validity of the Bible.

[W3MIV]

Everybody run fer cover. This one's gonna git hot!

[N4AUD]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 01 2007,03:08)]Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Nov. 30 2007,21:56)]if Israel were not in existence there would still be death and destruction from the same hands that bring it upon Israel.
Yes, and who cares, at least WE wouldn't be inextricably linked to it.
And THAT is the key for us...WE need to get our eggs out of that basket...or it will be the end of US.

[WF7A]

At least the Jews have a second home: Miami Beach. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

The "everybody deserves a home" philosophy is a two-edged sword: all of us--and I do mean everybody--needs a place we can call home; it's human nature to share a place with other humans that we feel safe and secure with; this starts with villages and goes way up to continents.

The problem with living with a group you feel comfortable with is that it leads to a "we versus them" mentality...and that's where conflicts and wars come into play.

Until we, as a species, start thinking of us being citizens of Earth instead of nations, we'll continue to have squabbles, conflicts, and war over who should live where.

[N3RQ]

Why is it that a large proper subset of American Jews see nothing wrong with the commingling of religion and politics in Israel when American Jews, more than any other special interest group, have been so instrumental in stripping Christian symbols from the public square here in the U.S.?

[WF7A]

Quote[/b] (N3RQ @ Dec. 01 2007,01:47)]Why is it that a large proper subset of American Jews sees nothing wrong with the commingling of religion and politics in Israel when American Jews, more than any other special interest group, have been so instrumental in stripping Christian symbols from the public square here in the U.S.
Boy, I hope you have fireproof gloves on.

*Sits back and awaits the inevitable multi-post counter-attack*

[N3RQ]

Quote[/b] (WF7A @ Dec. 01 2007,09:58)]Boy, I hope you have fireproof gloves on.

*Sits back and awaits the inevitable multi-post counter-attack*
I am merely pointing out what I find to be a major hypocrisy.

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (N3RQ @ Dec. 01 2007,09:47)]Why is it that a large proper subset of American Jews see nothing wrong with the commingling of religion and politics in Israel when American Jews, more than any other special interest group, have been so instrumental in stripping Christian symbols from the public square here in the U.S.?
What a load of bull. If any religious symbol has a right to be in a public square it would be a Jewish symbol. If it wasn't for all the good Jews and in particular Israel has done who knows if the US would exist today. Remember, Jews, and Israel are your ONLY friend in the middle east.

But I don;t think ANY religious symbol belongs in public square. Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Budhist, Wiccan, or Deamone.

[N9XR]

Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Dec. 01 2007,05:39)]What a load of bull. --->> If any religious symbol has a right to be in a public square it would be a Jewish symbol. If it wasn't for all the good Jews and in particular Israel has done who knows if the US would exist today. Remember, Jews, and Israel are your ONLY friend in the middle east.
Right Arm Brother.

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (N3RQ @ Dec. 01 2007,08:47)]Why is it that a large proper subset of American Jews see nothing wrong with the commingling of religion and politics in Israel
Israel is the most religiously tolerant country in that part of the World, and is more tolerant than most countries of the World.


Quote[/b] ]American Jews, more than any other special interest group, have been so instrumental in stripping Christian symbols from the public square here in the U.S.?

The lawsuits I remember are mostly from atheists, not members of the Jewish religion, but there could have been some involved, as it is a diverse group.

[N3RQ]

Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Dec. 01 2007,10:39)]Remember, Jews, and Israel are your ONLY friend in the middle east.
Do you not remember the Pollard incident? How about what happened to the U.S.S. Liberty?

[N3RQ]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 01 2007,11:15)]Israel is the most religiously tolerant country in that part of the World, and is more tolerant than most countries of the World.
How many Christians or Islamists hold high government offices in Israel?

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (n4aud @ Dec. 01 2007,08:52)]Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 01 2007,03:08)]Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Nov. 30 2007,21:56)]if Israel were not in existence there would still be death and destruction from the same hands that bring it upon Israel.
Yes, and who cares, at least WE wouldn't be inextricably linked to it.
And THAT is the key for us...WE need to get our eggs out of that basket...or it will be the end of US.
give this man a fine cigar.

[kc2orw]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 01 2007,03:03)]Quote[/b] (K1VSK @ Nov. 30 2007,15:26)]It is more that the converse is true - there would be less trouble in the world if there were no fundamentalist Islamic state(s) like Iran with their current hitler-clone leader.
au contraire my friend, for Islam is God's answer to the Jews.
Some people claim Islam is corrupted version of early Christianity, which was a corrupted version of Judaism.

Strange some of the reactions this topic got. The premise of the group whose link I posted is that the Torah doesn't support the notion that the Jews are required to be in Israel. The Zionist are the faction that supports that notion and some feel that the Zionist have exerted too much influence over our politics.
I don't know if that is true or not but since I am agnostic I don't give much credence to religious edicts or inerrancy.

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (N3RQ @ Dec. 01 2007,10:16)]Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Dec. 01 2007,10:39)]Remember, Jews, and Israel are your ONLY friend in the middle east.
Do you not remember the Pollard incident? How about what happened to the U.S.S. Liberty?
n2ize was being sarcastic.

Pollard -- Pollard, provided Israel with photographs proving that their most trusted ally was telling them blatant lies about Iraq's chemical weapons and ballistic missile programs. He acted on his conscience, and the only damage to the USA was embarrassment to the liars in the Reagan administration, chiefly Casper Weinberger, who was the architect of arming Iraq. In retrospect, American blood is spilling because of the actions of Weinberger, not Pollard.

USS Liberty -- Israel apologized immediately, abjectly, and multiply for the attacks on the USS Liberty.

[K1VSK]

Quote[/b] (N3RQ @ Dec. 01 2007,11:20)]Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 01 2007,11:15)]Israel is the most religiously tolerant country in that part of the World, and is more tolerant than most countries of the World.
How many Christians or Islamists hold high government offices in Israel?
Not many but the converse is far worse - think about how many Jews hold office in any even moderate Islamic country.

At it's most fundamental level, when state run religious-based governments advocate and preach killing women and children with bombs at school parking lots or supermarkets, be it in Isreal or here in the U.S., it is pretty clear what the real difference is. The only people who can't see it are either too blind or too prejudiced or both.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ Dec. 01 2007,11:47)]some feel that the Zionist have exerted too much influence over our politics.
I don't know if that is true or not
WOW! You must be tokin some hellacious good bud.
The hegemony the Zionistas have over this country is overwhelming, and it's not just about Zion, but all things Jew.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 01 2007,11:47)]USS Liberty -- Israel apologized immediately, abjectly, and multiply for the attacks on the USS Liberty.
It's saturday night, I guess that makes it all right. Prince

How long did the attacks on the USS Liberty last in duration?
Tie-ay-ay-aym wasn't on their side, no it wan't. Rolling Stones

[N9XR]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 01 2007,08:16)]Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ Dec. 01 2007,11:47)]some feel that the Zionist have exerted too much influence over our politics.
I don't know if that is true or not
WOW! You must be tokin some hellacious good bud.
The hegemony the Zionistas have over this country is overwhelming, and it's not just about Zion, but all things Jew.
Take it easy on ORW. The influence has been here for so many years, many of us don't recall a time when it wasn't there, therefore many do not recognize its presence.

Would we have spent $trillions if we were not influenced by Israel in Iraq? Heh heh.

Also. How many countries on the dole come demanding their monthly welfare check if it isn't on time?

[kc7jty]

another fine cigar

[kc2orw]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 01 2007,16:16)]Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ Dec. 01 2007,11:47)]some feel that the Zionist have exerted too much influence over our politics.
I don't know if that is true or not
WOW! You must be tokin some hellacious good bud.
The hegemony the Zionistas have over this country is overwhelming, and it's not just about Zion, but all things Jew.
Easy to say it in absolute terms more likely it is just our foothold in the Middle East. But for sure these folks have lobbied the heck out of us, done some dirty deeds... dirt cheap, taken their welfare payments, munitions, etc...

You have to admit that, while hard to actualize, it would be easier if Israel weren't in the picture or hadn't ever been in the picture.

I think your wrong lumping Jew with Zionist, I have known Jews that don't like Zionists...
PS: And they happened to have been related too... amazing what you can learn at a Passover Seder.

[N9XR]

Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ Dec. 01 2007,09:47)]I think your wrong lumping Jew with Zionist, I have known Jews that don't like Zionists...
PS: And they happened to have been related too... amazing what you can learn at a Passover Seder.
Yeah. It is pretty much just the Zionists who are our real problem. Non-Zionists have no need to drain our nation of resources and are a very productive sector of our society.

[kc2orw]

Yes Jerry I think you got it.
"Boy Jove Oy think he's got-tit"
Yes if anyone didn't see the link I posted originally here it is again.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/index.cfm
It is Jews against Zionism

Even PM Ohlmert is not as much of a dedicated Zionist the old guard seems to have died off. So perhaps some progress can be made too bad it is a little too late...

[WF7A]

Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ Dec. 01 2007,06:47)]PS: And they happened to have been related too... amazing what you can learn at a Passover Seder.
At the seder it's traditional to ask "the four questions", so was the Zionist vs. the Jews issue one of them? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[kd5kfl]

Quote[/b] ]How about what happened to the U.S.S. Liberty?

The story of what happened to the U.S.S. Liberty was published in Washington Monthly back in the '80. With certain facts that were not in the newspaper version of the story. Story looks different when you have all the facts.

Israel had a young Lieutenant working in a hotel. Guy had a radio and a flawless West Bank Arab accent. He was directing Syrian tanks to fire on Jordanian infantry, Lebanese artillery shooting at Egyptian artillery, et cetera. Telling the Arabs they were firing on Israelis. The Israelis figured this one guy was worth one division.

The Liberty heard this guy in operation. They tried to warn Israel about what they thought was happening. The Israelis had no way to tell them to shut up. They had no secure commo channel to the Liberty. They did the only thing they could think of to terminate the problem.

[N3RQ]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 01 2007,11:47)]Pollard was a traitor. His job was to ensure U.S. security.

The attack on the U.S.S. Liberty was no accident. The Israelis knew that the Liberty was a Naval Security Group-operated SIGINT/ELINT collection platform.
Pollard was a traitor. He demonstrated that his alligience was to Israel, not the United States.


The attack on the U.S.S. Liberty was no accident. The Israelis knew that the Liberty was a Naval Security Group-operated SIGINT/ELINT collection platform.

[N3RQ]

Quote[/b] (kd5kfl @ Dec. 01 2007,17:59)]The story of what happened to the U.S.S. Liberty was published in Washington Monthly back in the '80. With certain facts that were not in the newspaper version of the story. Story looks different when you have all the facts.
I was a member of the Naval Security Group. The Naval Security Group (now the Naval Information Operations Command) is a component of the Central Security Service, which, in turn, is the uniformed arm of the National Security Agency (NSA). NSA has had secure channels to all "friendly" countries since the Arlington Hall days.

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (N3RQ @ Dec. 01 2007,17:13)]Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 01 2007,11:47)]Pollard was a traitor. His job was to ensure U.S. security.

The attack on the U.S.S. Liberty was no accident. The Israelis knew that the Liberty was a Naval Security Group-operated SIGINT/ELINT collection platform.
Pollard was a traitor. He demonstrated that his alligience was to Israel, not the United States.


The attack on the U.S.S. Liberty was no accident. The Israelis knew that the Liberty was a Naval Security Group-operated SIGINT/ELINT collection platform.
Israel was in a massively intense six-day war with multiple nations. Israel used every resource in the battles, and the only reason that resources were spent on the US ship, was because the United States assured Israel that there were no US naval vessels in the region.

This even has been so thoroughly investigated and studied that it is merely hatred of Israel that keeps it in play. It is like when the USA destroyed the Chinese embassy in Yugoslavia, an event that happened when we had plenty of national security -- meaning no emergency and no fog of war like Israel had. The USA wants China to believe it was an accident, and I am sure it was. USA haters in China will forever claim that it was deliberate.

Quote[/b] ]According to the National Security Agency -- for whom the Navy was conducting the mission -- the order to withdraw was broadcast to the Liberty in sufficient time for the Liberty to have left the area long before the attack, but not on the frequencies that the Liberty crew was monitoring for orders until 1525Zulu, hours after the attack, due to a long series of administrative and communications problems. NSA report pp. 21-23 The Liberty's communications files were located in the sections destroyed in the attack, [14] (page 23) such that whether the Liberty received its orders earlier cannot be known with certainty.

According to the U.S. Navy -- which had operational control over the ship -- an "immediate precedence" order to withdraw to 100 miles was broadcast at 01:10Zulu, or 3:10 AM local time, the night before the attack. The Navy agrees that this "immediate precedence" order from the Joint Chiefs of Staff was mis-routed through the Phillipines, but was still broadcast to the Sixth Fleet (the Liberty's operational command) at 06:37 -- 7 1/2 hours before the attack at 14:03. [15] (pages 24 - 25) [16](pages 5 and Exhibit N, page 58) Nevertheless, the Liberty did not obey those orders. The Navy Court of Inquiry reports many other messages were successfully broadcast and received to and from the Liberty in the 24 hours before the attack, including the Liberty's report of being overflown at 05:15Zulu. From this 05:15 Zulu report until 1525Zulu, the Liberty did not report any inability to receive incoming traffic from the Sixth Fleet.

The Navy also faulted a shortage of qualified radio men as a contributing factor to the Liberty's failure to leave the area as ordered. [17]

Linque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident)

[kd5kfl]

Quote[/b] ]I was a member of the Naval Security Group. The Naval Security Group (now the Naval Information Operations Command) is a component of the Central Security Service, which, in turn, is the uniformed arm of the National Security Agency (NSA).

Harrumph...

The Naval Security Group may have been A uniformed arm of the NSA, but not THE uniformed arm of the NSA; the Army Security Agency performed that function on land.

[kc2orw]

Quote[/b] (WF7A @ Dec. 01 2007,20:31)]Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ Dec. 01 2007,06:47)]PS: And they happened to have been related too... amazing what you can learn at a Passover Seder.
At the seder it's traditional to ask "the four questions", so was the Zionist vs. the Jews issue one of them? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I didn't have to ask or say a word a few more beers and a shot or two after the feast and it all starts coming out, no provocation required http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[N3RQ]

Quote[/b] (kd5kfl @ Dec. 01 2007,20:04)]Quote[/b] ]I was a member of the Naval Security Group. The Naval Security Group (now the Naval Information Operations Command) is a component of the Central Security Service, which, in turn, is the uniformed arm of the National Security Agency (NSA).

Harrumph...

The Naval Security Group may have been A uniformed arm of the NSA, but not THE uniformed arm of the NSA; the Army Security Agency performed that function on land.
I guess that the Naval Security Group Activities in Spain, Scotland, Wales, Iceland, Japan et al. were all figments of my imagination. It was kind of hard to deploy an AN/FRD-10 circularly disposed dipole array (a.k.a. Wullenweber) on a ship. Granted, modern TDOA-based systems have pretty much rendered this technology obsolete.


By the way, I never stated that the NSG was THE uniformed arm of the NSA. The CSS is an inter-service agency.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ Dec. 01 2007,14:47)]I think your wrong lumping Jew with Zionist, I have known Jews that don't like Zionists...
PS: And they happened to have been related too... amazing what you can learn at a Passover Seder.
You forgot to mention I want em all dead. That would be the most correct blanket response wouldn't it?

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] ]owner of a 0.15 acre spread with a poorly-built home dubbed, The Blunderosa.
Sounds like a big spread pard. I gotta 60'x115'.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (N3RQ @ Dec. 01 2007,18:13)]Pollard was a traitor. #He demonstrated that his alligience was to Israel, not the United States.
Thus representing about 50% of the mindless dolts that are citizens of this country.

[al2i]

Jonathan Pollard was never found guilty of treason: spying for an enemy state.

He was indicted on only one charge: one count of passing classified information to an ally, without intent to harm the United States.

The information was intelligence about the military capabilities of Israel's self-avowed enemies in the Middle East.

Pollard pled guilty to the charge and is serving the 23rd year of a life sentence.

[n9yb]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 02 2007,05:30)]Jonathan Pollard was never found guilty of treason: spying for an enemy state.

He was indicted on only one charge: one count of passing classified information to an ally, without intent to harm the United States.

The information was intelligence about the military capabilities of Israel's self-avowed enemies in the Middle East.

Pollard pled guilty to the charge and is serving the 23rd year of a life sentence.
Every time a President is lobbied to commute his sentence, they evaluate the evidence and leave him to rot.

He was a traitor to the US.

Growing up in South Bend, IN, I heard tons of bellyaching by his father. Pollard took an oath, he broke it and now he is sits in prison.

[N9XR]

Quote[/b] (n9yb @ Dec. 02 2007,01:30)]Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 02 2007,05:30)]Jonathan Pollard was never found guilty of treason: spying for an enemy state.

He was indicted on only one charge: one count of passing classified information to an ally, without intent to harm the United States.

The information was intelligence about the military capabilities of Israel's self-avowed enemies in the Middle East.

Pollard pled guilty to the charge and is serving the 23rd year of a life sentence.
Every time a President is lobbied to commute his sentence, they evaluate the evidence and leave him to rot.

He was a traitor to the US.

Growing up in South Bend, IN, I heard tons of bellyaching by his father. Pollard took an oath, he broke it and now he is sits in prison.
Why should we care about him anyway? He is now a citizen of his beloved Israel.

If Israel wants him so badly, we should obey like a chump country we are. Lobotomize the Indianian and send him back over there.

[kd5kfl]

Looks like someone here overdosed on high school civics class. Maybe a combination of a hot teacher and hormones?

What Pollard was convicted of is irrelevant. He was offered a deal. What the government got out of the deal was secrecy; they did not have to reveal sensitive information in court. What Pollard got was when they hung him fom the walls they would hang him upright in manacles, not upside down with fishhooks. Figuratively speaking, of course.

Quote[/b] ]By the way, I never stated that the NSG was THE uniformed arm of the NSA. # The CSS is an inter-service agency.

I knew that when I wrote that. Just wanted to see if you would take the bait.

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (n9xr @ Dec. 02 2007,05:59)]Quote[/b] (n9yb @ Dec. 02 2007,01:30)]Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 02 2007,05:30)]Jonathan Pollard was never found guilty of treason: spying for an enemy state.

He was indicted on only one charge: one count of passing classified information to an ally, without intent to harm the United States.

The information was intelligence about the military capabilities of Israel's self-avowed enemies in the Middle East.

Pollard pled guilty to the charge and is serving the 23rd year of a life sentence.
Every time a President is lobbied to commute his sentence, they evaluate the evidence and leave him to rot.

He was a traitor to the US.

Growing up in South Bend, IN, I heard tons of bellyaching by his father. Pollard took an oath, he broke it and now he is sits in prison.
Why should we care about him anyway?

If Israel wants him so badly, we should obey like a chump country we are. Lobotomize the Indianian and send him back over there.

Quote[/b] ]Why should we care about him anyway?
"We" didn't. Someone bizarrely brought him up as a reason to hate Israel.

Quote[/b] ]Lobotomize the Indianian and send him back over there.

Whatever. Putin would give him Po<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>210</span>.

[K6BBC]

Allz I know is this:

Jews don't camp.

bbc

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Dec. 02 2007,11:18)]Allz I know is this:

Jews don't camp.

bbc
Unless it's at the Marriott.

[K0RGR]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Dec. 01 2007,00:14)]Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Nov. 30 2007,00:52)]Claims that the British created Trans-Jordan for the Arabs just don't square with the history. And even if they did, who were the British to decide to kick the Arabs out of Israel? That was never their policy.

I think the only answer is to pay reparations to the displaced. But that must be the end of it. It probably won't end the conflict, but it at least would put the West back on the high moral ground. If the Palestinians cling to their wish to destroy Israel, then the Palestinians will have to be dispersed.
Huh? The Balfour Declaration was the British basis for the creation of a Jewish state, and it was to be in Palestine. Why then would they, when the created Transjordan, put an Arab on the throne of Transjordan, later Jordan? They had already negotiated this as terms for the Arabs support, outlined in the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence.

Found a good explanation at Wikipedia for the situation they were in:
Quote[/b] ]
In the Sykes-Picot agreement of 1916, Britain and France had proposed to divide the Middle East between them into spheres of influence, with &quot;Palestine&quot; as an international enclave.[2]

After the Sykes-Picot agreement of 1916, the British had made two promises regarding the territory in the Middle East it was expecting to acquire. Britain had promised the local Arabs, through Lawrence, independence for a united Arab country covering most of the Arab Middle East, in exchange for their support of the British; and in the Balfour Declaration of 1917 had promised to create and foster a Jewish national home in Palestine. The British had, in the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence, previously promised the Hashemite family lordship over most land in the region in return for their support. At the same time, British interest in Zionism dates to the rise in importance of the British Empire’s South Asian enterprises in the early 19th century, concurrent with &quot;The Great Game&quot; and planning for the Suez Canal




So basically they had made promises to at least one side, and had internal interests in the other side.

Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine) is a link to a decent explanation of some of the history, specifically the British involvement.
To quote your own source:

&quot;The Balfour Declaration of 1917 (dated November 2, 1917) was a classified formal statement of policy by the British government on the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire in the aftermath of World War I.

The letter stated the position, agreed at a British Cabinet meeting on October 31, 1917, that the British government supported Zionist plans for a National home for the Jewish people within Palestine&amp;#8206; with the condition that nothing should be done which might prejudice the rights of existing communities there.&quot;

Note that it's also &quot;within&quot; Palestine, not &quot;of&quot; Palestine.

Further, the British later excluded Transjordan from the Mandate for Palestine - &quot;On 24 July, in Europe, the terms of the British Mandate over Palestine and Transjordan were approved by the Council of the League of Nations. On 16 September 1922 the League of Nations formally approved a memorandum from Lord Balfour confirming the exemption of Transjordan from the clauses of the mandate concerning the creation of a Jewish national home and from the mandate's responsibility to facilitate Jewish immigration and land settlement.&quot;

Besides which, the 1947 U.N. declaration that created Israel specifically voided the previous British mandate. The U.N. plan sought to partition Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem falling under U.N. control.
More Wikis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan)

[al2i]

Historical covenants will pale under the intense light of neutron multiplication. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[n9yb]

Quote[/b] ]
Why should we care about him anyway? He is now a citizen of his beloved Israel.


He is a citizen of a Federal prison.

[kc2orw]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 02 2007,01:32)]Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ Dec. 01 2007,14:47)]I think your wrong lumping Jew with Zionist, I have known Jews that don't like Zionists...
PS: And they happened to have been related too... amazing what you can learn at a Passover Seder.
You forgot to mention I want em all dead. That would be the most correct blanket response wouldn't it?
Nah I am pretty sure you aren't one of those people but you did make use of a generalization http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Dec. 01 2007,17:33)]Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Dec. 01 2007,00:14)]Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Nov. 30 2007,00:52)]Claims that the British created Trans-Jordan for the Arabs just don't square with the history. And even if they did, who were the British to decide to kick the Arabs out of Israel? That was never their policy.

I think the only answer is to pay reparations to the displaced. But that must be the end of it. It probably won't end the conflict, but it at least would put the West back on the high moral ground. If the Palestinians cling to their wish to destroy Israel, then the Palestinians will have to be dispersed.
Huh? The Balfour Declaration was the British basis for the creation of a Jewish state, and it was to be in Palestine. Why then would they, when the created Transjordan, put an Arab on the throne of Transjordan, later Jordan? They had already negotiated this as terms for the Arabs support, outlined in the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence.

Found a good explanation at Wikipedia for the situation they were in:
Quote[/b] ]
In the Sykes-Picot agreement of 1916, Britain and France had proposed to divide the Middle East between them into spheres of influence, with &quot;Palestine&quot; as an international enclave.[2]

After the Sykes-Picot agreement of 1916, the British had made two promises regarding the territory in the Middle East it was expecting to acquire. Britain had promised the local Arabs, through Lawrence, independence for a united Arab country covering most of the Arab Middle East, in exchange for their support of the British; and in the Balfour Declaration of 1917 had promised to create and foster a Jewish national home in Palestine. The British had, in the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence, previously promised the Hashemite family lordship over most land in the region in return for their support. At the same time, British interest in Zionism dates to the rise in importance of the British Empire’s South Asian enterprises in the early 19th century, concurrent with &quot;The Great Game&quot; and planning for the Suez Canal




So basically they had made promises to at least one side, and had internal interests in the other side.

Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine) is a link to a decent explanation of some of the history, specifically the British involvement.
To quote your own source:

&quot;The Balfour Declaration of 1917 (dated November 2, 1917) was a classified formal statement of policy by the British government on the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire in the aftermath of World War I.

The letter stated the position, agreed at a British Cabinet meeting on October 31, 1917, that the British government supported Zionist plans for a National home for the Jewish people within Palestine&amp;#8206; with the condition that nothing should be done which might prejudice the rights of existing communities there.&quot;

Note that it's also &quot;within&quot; Palestine, not &quot;of&quot; Palestine.

Further, the British later excluded Transjordan from the Mandate for Palestine - &quot;On 24 July, in Europe, the terms of the British Mandate over Palestine and Transjordan were approved by the Council of the League of Nations. On 16 September 1922 the League of Nations formally approved a memorandum from Lord Balfour confirming the exemption of Transjordan from the clauses of the mandate concerning the creation of a Jewish national home and from the mandate's responsibility to facilitate Jewish immigration and land settlement.&quot;

Besides which, the 1947 U.N. declaration that created Israel specifically voided the previous British mandate. The U.N. plan sought to partition Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem falling under U.N. control.
More Wikis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan)
I think at this point you and I are in agreement. Those that want to ignore the more-recent (since 1900) history of this region are the same ones that ignore the fact that there were to be two areas, one of which was to be a homeland for the Palestinian Jews, the other for the Palestinian Arabs. That's why Transjordan was excluded from the mandate, providing the separation (at the Jordan river) between Transjordan to the east (not included in the mandate to create a Jewish national home) and the rest of what was once called Palestine (to the west of the Jordan river) - that we now call Israel.

And you are correct that while the Brits started the whole process with war promises and mandates, it was the UN that provided the final separation and I believe also drew the borders... Which were promptly ignored by the attacking countries during the Six Day War.

[KP3FT]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 01 2007,11:23)]Quote[/b] (n4aud @ Dec. 01 2007,08:52)]Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 01 2007,03:08)]Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Nov. 30 2007,21:56)]if Israel were not in existence there would still be death and destruction from the same hands that bring it upon Israel.
Yes, and who cares, at least WE wouldn't be inextricably linked to it.
And THAT is the key for us...WE need to get our eggs out of that basket...or it will be the end of US.
give this man a fine cigar.
How nice... abandon a friend and ally to protect your own back.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (KP3FT @ Dec. 03 2007,08:21)]Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 01 2007,11:23)]Quote[/b] (n4aud @ Dec. 01 2007,08:52)]Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 01 2007,03:08)]Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Nov. 30 2007,21:56)]if Israel were not in existence there would still be death and destruction from the same hands that bring it upon Israel.
Yes, and who cares, at least WE wouldn't be inextricably linked to it.
And THAT is the key for us...WE need to get our eggs out of that basket...or it will be the end of US.
give this man a fine cigar.
How nice... abandon a friend and ally to protect your own back.
Like a very unwise fat man going out on a thin limb to secure his cat.
Why is the health &amp; welfare of Israel more important to you than the health &amp; welfare of your own country?

[W1GUH]

Apart from the politics, what I hear about Isreal from friends I have who live there makes it sould like an outstanding place to spend some time. In fact, if I were to take a vacation there, I'd be at risk of liking it so much I'd move there (if I could.)

However, as we're all aware, the politics are thorny (what an understatement.)

[N4AUD]

Quote[/b] (KP3FT @ Dec. 03 2007,11:21)]Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 01 2007,11:23)]Quote[/b] (n4aud @ Dec. 01 2007,08:52)]Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 01 2007,03:08)]Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Nov. 30 2007,21:56)]if Israel were not in existence there would still be death and destruction from the same hands that bring it upon Israel.
Yes, and who cares, at least WE wouldn't be inextricably linked to it.
And THAT is the key for us...WE need to get our eggs out of that basket...or it will be the end of US.
give this man a fine cigar.
How nice... abandon a friend and ally to protect your own back.
A friend and ally, huh? It's been a pretty one sided &quot;friendship&quot; hasn't it? We can take days to list what we've done for Israel...tell us what Israel has done for the US.

[N9XR]

Quote[/b] (n4aud @ Dec. 03 2007,07:34)]Quote[/b] (KP3FT @ Dec. 03 2007,11:21)]Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 01 2007,11:23)]Quote[/b] (n4aud @ Dec. 01 2007,08:52)]Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 01 2007,03:08)]Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Nov. 30 2007,21:56)]if Israel were not in existence there would still be death and destruction from the same hands that bring it upon Israel.
Yes, and who cares, at least WE wouldn't be inextricably linked to it.
And THAT is the key for us...WE need to get our eggs out of that basket...or it will be the end of US.
give this man a fine cigar.
How nice... abandon a friend and ally to protect your own back.
A friend and ally, huh? It's been a pretty one sided &quot;friendship&quot; hasn't it? We can take days to list what we've done for Israel...tell us what Israel has done for the US.
One thing they have done that many here are thankful for is the massive relief if money from our pockets. They reel in so much cash from our tax dollars they can afford to give their own citizens many luxuries we can only dream of.

Spying on our national security issues is another gift they have done for us.

Also not telling our national security of the Beirut bombing plans was a real hoot.

There is so much we can thank Israel for.

[k2vhw]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 03 2007,10:05)]Quote[/b] (KP3FT @ Dec. 03 2007,08:21)]Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 01 2007,11:23)]Quote[/b] (n4aud @ Dec. 01 2007,08:52)]Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 01 2007,03:08)]Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Nov. 30 2007,21:56)]if Israel were not in existence there would still be death and destruction from the same hands that bring it upon Israel.
Yes, and who cares, at least WE wouldn't be inextricably linked to it.
And THAT is the key for us...WE need to get our eggs out of that basket...or it will be the end of US.
give this man a fine cigar.
How nice... abandon a friend and ally to protect your own back.
Like a very unwise fat man going out on a thin limb to secure his cat.
Why is the health &amp; welfare of Israel more important to you than the health &amp; welfare of your own country?
ISOLATIONISM won't work. You can't turn a blind-eye to significant world events or stick your head in the sand and think they'll go away. #Not taking a stand for the only democratic country in the region (middle east) would likely become a serious conflict of U.S. interests (oil) in the region. We would eventually be pulled into a situation more costly (in terms of life and money). We just cannot simply take the simple-simon approach to complex issues like elimination of Israel. Making statements such as 'wouldn't it be better if Israel weren't there' (or such) is a mark of sheer ignorance.
If not ignorance then blatant hatred.

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Dec. 03 2007,13:12)]Making statements such as 'wouldn't it be better if Israel weren't there' (or such) is a mark of sheer ignorance.
If not ignorance then blatant hatred.
Hatred and ignorance are not in either/or contradistinction. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[k2vhw]

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Dec. 02 2007,11:18)]Allz I know is this:

Jews don't camp.

bbc
A blind man describing the view!

You've just hung around the wrong crowd and have not seen!

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Dec. 03 2007,13:22)]Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ Dec. 02 2007,11:18)]Allz I know is this:

Jews don't camp.

bbc
A blind man describing the view!

You've just hung around the wrong crowd and have not seen!
He is talking about the shifting World populations of people of Jewish descent since they were forced from their homelands by the Babylonians and later from Jerusalem by the Romans, events often referred to as the diaspora.

[N4AUD]

Not being a proponent of Israel isn't the same thing as being antisemitic, as some here seem to think. Apples and oranges.

The middle east is one big stinking quagmire, like a swimming pool full of hot tar.

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (n4aud @ Dec. 03 2007,13:28)]Not being a proponent of Israel isn't the same thing as being antisemitic, as some here seem to think. Apples and oranges.

The middle east is one big stinking quagmire, like a swimming pool full of hot tar.
Indeed, as Ron Paul has said, our &quot;help&quot; has likely caused more harm to the peoples of that region than good.

[W2ILP]

Let me weigh in here. #I agree with the article's statement that Jews (especially Jews who live in the USA, Canada, the UK, Australia, etc.) do not need Israel. #Jews don't need to live anywhere that may have been promised to them even before the age of discovery found new continents. It is known that Columbus thought that the &quot;New World&quot; that he had discovered was the promised land. #There is evidence that Columbus was actually Jewish but it has been suppressed by both Italians, Spanish and Israelis. My belief that the British Protectorate of Palestine should have never been given to the Zionists is not because of any religious belief or respect for the ancient Torahs or their many interpretations by nerdy Jewish hair-splitting Talmudic scholars. # IT IS BECAUSE I AM AN ATHEIST JEW. #That is not an oxymoron. #Being Jewish is not just believing in what Jews may believe in from their ancient religion. #&quot;Once a Yid always a Yid&quot;, was what my father said as he munched on a Chinese egg roll, while reading a racing form and listening to a World Series baseball game.

I am not a Zionist...nor am I an Israeli...but I don't deny my having Jewish ancestors and Jewish relatives...nor can I change my name or the shape of my nose. #I have lived and worked with my Jewishness and I am only ashamed when I see that it was Jewish Zionism that has angered the Muslim fanatics and I believe that this was a major cause of 9/11. #I don't blame any Americans who might see good reason to hate fanatic Zionists who won't share Jerusalem with Muslims, just as much as they hate the extremist Muslims who want to give the land of Israel back to the Palestinians. # BOTH ARE TERRORISTS. #The Jews in Israel treat Muslims as second class citizens...just as the white minority in South Africa treated the Black majority. #Religious ignorance has prevented most Christians and most American politicians from being impartial. #Few dare to call Zionists inciters of terror no less call them terrorists. #Just remember however that for every Israeli killed by suicidal terrorists three Muslims were killed by the Israeli armed forces. #The Israeli armed forces are armed by the USA. #

Israeli leaders must justify their nation based on Biblical claims. #Israelis have bulldozed the homes of many Palestinians in the occupied West Bank based on those claims...and they have allowed settlements of Jews from Brooklyn, Jews from Russia, and Jews who don't want to pay their IRS taxes to the USA to be made on land that the UN says does not belong to Israel even if we can accept that any land belongs to Israel without using a Biblical claim.

Of all politicians only Jimmy Carter and Buchanan seem to understand the Israeli - Palestinians stalemate. #Neither side is willing to accept both an Israeli State and a Palestinian State if they stick religiously to their religions. If Jews do not cling to an invisible realtor who was the God of Moses they must give up not only the West Bank but all of Israel proper. There is nothing to be done to change their religions unless one side wipes out the other entirely. #What a revolting development! #To be neutral...you can no longer be religious about the matter. #The only peaceful Jew or peaceful Muslim is an atheist Semite.

w2ilp ( I Like Peace)...Unfortunately religious fanatics can not add peaceful amendments to the Talmud and Torah or Koran of their choice and can not even eat scrapple or name teddy bears Mohammad or Moses for Christ's sake.

[N3ATS]

How many Israeli troops are in Iraq, right now? This &quot;ally&quot; of ours? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[kc7jty]

that's the true sign of wisdom &amp; influence on their part, get some lackey to do it for you.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 03 2007,14:30)]Indeed, as Ron Paul has said, our &quot;help&quot; has likely caused more harm to the peoples of that region than good.
are we losing ground Dave, slipping towards anti-semitism?

[kd5kfl]

Antisemitic. Now there is a word that reveals much about the user.

Ever meet that moron sitting at the counter at the local diner, tells you &quot;If you are ever on a sinking ship, you just go up to the radio room and send three longs and three shorts and three longs and the Coast Gaurd will be there in a jiffy!&quot;?

That guy would use the word antisemitic.

About 10% of Jews are semitic. The Sephardim are descended from the original Old Testament Middle Eastern Jews. Related by DNA to Abraham and Moses. Descendants of the people God chose to obey Old Testament laws. The &quot;Ultra-Orthodox&quot; Jews of TV news reports.

Most of the rest are Ashkenazim. Descendants of a mixture of Sumerians and Khazars. NOT descended from Gods chosen people. The Ashkenazim chose to be chosen people long after the choosing was performed.

The Arabs are semitic people. Semitic people are theoretically descendants of Noahs son Shem. They are identified by linguistic similarities.

Israel is in large part a product of political agitation by Ashkenazim. Zionism is an Ashkenazim enterprise. Much of the pot-stirring in the middle east comes from Ashkenazim.

Rothschild was an Ashkenazim. Hitlers mother was a maid in the Rothschild mansion, which is why some people say he was a Jew. Them Rothschild males were any-port-in-a-storm guys; Europe is a stormy place...

Did you ever try to educate that guy at the lunch counter? Waste of time. But you can educate yourself.

Do yourself a favor. Read &quot;Larry Gonicks Cartoon History of the Universe&quot;. No. I'm not kidding. Superb history book, many interesting things not mentioned in public school history. Three volumes, Ashkenazim history is in Volume II if memory serves.

[AB8RU]

Dont believe it, one book has the road map laid out you are Shot Out Of Luck ! the Big Guy in the Sky approved it and he did the plan dude, no matter what someone says the Big Guy says it stays no and ifs or buts about it!


Good Luck in Arguing your case ! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 03 2007,17:43)]Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 03 2007,14:30)]Indeed, as Ron Paul has said, our &quot;help&quot; has likely caused more harm to the peoples of that region than good.
are we losing ground Dave, slipping towards anti-semitism?
The only thing I have against the descendants of ancient Judea, is that they are not Irish enough.

[W2ILP]

The Isralis were told specifically not to help fight in Iraq by the US government. It is believed that this would have caused a religious war with all of the Muslim states against both Israel and the US and this would be a WWIII!

The major cause of 9/11 was the fact that the US arms and supports Israel more than any Muslim nation. Thus the Muslim terrorists died for their hatred of US foreign policy.

I am surprised that many Americans do not blame Israelis for being the indirect cause of 9/11. I guess it it not politically correct to do so. Jessy Jackson got blamed for being anti-Jewish just because he called New York a -----town. It must be worse than an N word.
Many Americans believe that Israelis should have an equal opportunity to act like the NAZIs who killed millions of them.....but why take it out on the poorest Muslims?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Another cause is that the Muslims want to become the &quot;World Trade Center&quot; and take that title away from New York, USA. Dubai is in the process of building a new &quot;World Trade Center&quot;. Clinton has been privately helping them.

Is it too late for the US to mind its own business? Surely we need a change from our present policies. We won't find the answers in any churches or synagogues.

w2ilp (I Like Preace)

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Dec. 03 2007,18:10)]Is it too late for the US to mind its own business? Surely we need a change from our present policies.
It is not too late, but it is too wise.

After all, according to Giuliani and McCain, Ron Paul is an &quot;isolationist&quot;, even though the least isolated nation I can think of is Switzerland, who's citizens travel, trade, and are welcome nearly everywhere.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (kd5kfl @ Dec. 03 2007,18:57)]Antisemitic. Now there is a word that reveals much about the user.

Ever meet that moron sitting at the counter at the local diner, tells you &quot;If you are ever on a sinking ship, you just go up to the radio room and send three longs and three shorts and three longs and the Coast Gaurd will be there in a jiffy!&quot;?

That guy would use the word antisemitic.

About 10% of Jews are semitic. The Sephardim are descended from the original Old Testament Middle Eastern Jews. Related by DNA to Abraham and Moses. Descendants of the people God chose to obey Old Testament laws. The &quot;Ultra-Orthodox&quot; Jews of TV news reports.

Most of the rest are Ashkenazim. Descendants of a mixture of Sumerians and Khazars. NOT descended from Gods chosen people. The Ashkenazim chose to be chosen people long after the choosing was performed.

The Arabs are semitic people. Semitic people are theoretically descendants of Noahs son Shem. They are identified by linguistic similarities.

Israel is in large part a product of political agitation by Ashkenazim. Zionism is an Ashkenazim enterprise. Much of the pot-stirring in the middle east comes from Ashkenazim.

Rothschild was an Ashkenazim. Hitlers mother was a maid in the Rothschild mansion, which is why some people say he was a Jew. Them Rothschild males were any-port-in-a-storm guys; Europe is a stormy place...

Did you ever try to educate that guy at the lunch counter? Waste of time. But you can educate yourself.

Do yourself a favor. Read &quot;Larry Gonicks Cartoon History of the Universe&quot;. No. I'm not kidding. Superb history book, many interesting things not mentioned in public school history. Three volumes, Ashkenazim history is in Volume II if memory serves.
since you posted this right after my use of the term anti-semitism I suspect you are referring to me, I hope you're not referring to me, for if you are you're definately barking up the wrong tree. wuf!

[W2ILP]

kd5kfl

If you want to know who we are... We are JEWS. #Being Jewish means following the Jewish religion and/or having been born of a Jewish mother.

The word Semite is a word that refers to a debatable sub race of Caucasians that includes the ancestors of both Jews and Arabs who do share similar DNA. # Thus an AntiSemite is against all Jews and Muslims.

There are two sub groups of Jews which have nothing to do with their relationship to Noah or any Biblical characters but only to where they settled for many centuries. #The Jews who lived in Europe were called Ashkenazic Jews, while those who lived in the Middle East and in North Africa were known as Sephardic Jews. #Both observed all of the same Jewish holidays and rituals as well as the kosher laws. #Because of the availability of different foods in different locations each group developed slightly different cooking styles. #Many of the Sephardic meals are similar to the Muslim tastes, and some of the cultures of these folks are also very similar. #If it were not for the head dress that the women wear it is impossible for a Yemenite Jew to be recognized as either a Jew or a Muslim.

You can talk to the guy at the lunch counter all you want but you can not separate the two types of Jews by anything but where they have lived for centuries. #The lunch counter is no place to get any more educated than the dinner table or the local bar. #In fact since &quot;En Vino Veritas&quot; maybe if you could visit a bar in a Jewish neighborhood in Brooklyn, NY you could try to explain your definition of Ashkenazic Jews, based on the observations of Rochchild's maid and see how well they could be verified by those in attendence.

w2ilp (I Like People)...who are all American Jews and don't ask any Mormons to prove if they are related to Rotchchild or Noah... and make sure that they don't get blamed for being related to a Jewish doctor who used dirty needles....or praised for all of the vaccines that were developed by Jewish scientists.

[N3ATS]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 03 2007,21:21)]Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Dec. 03 2007,18:10)]Is it too late for the US to mind its own business? Surely we need a change from our present policies.
It is not too late, but it is too wise.

After all, according to Giuliani and McCain, Ron Paul is an &quot;isolationist&quot;, even though the least isolated nation I can think of is Switzerland, who's citizens travel, trade, and are welcome nearly everywhere.
And it seems, no one is blowing up their buildings.

[k2vhw]

Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Dec. 03 2007,18:01)]w2ilp ( I Like Peace)...Unfortunately religious fanatics can not.........................
That's the bottom line! #I've said it before and maintain it yet, &quot;zealots, religious zealots, cannot be bargained with&quot;.
But I will stand on my support for Israel to exist. #In no less a need than Ireland is to Irish, Scotland is to Scots or France is to French, etc.
To argue that Israel treats it's Muslim citizens poorly can be equated to how America treats many of it's citizens or any other nation's treatment of secular peoples. Yes, it is wrong..........but it doesn't equate to elimination of the nation.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Dec. 03 2007,19:48)]# Thus an AntiSemite is against all Jews and Muslims.
not in this country

[N9XR]

Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Dec. 03 2007,17:54)]Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Dec. 03 2007,18:01)]w2ilp ( I Like Peace)...Unfortunately religious fanatics can not.........................
That's the bottom line! I've said it before and maintain it yet, &quot;zealots, religious zealots, cannot be bargained with&quot;.
But I will stand on my support for Israel to exist. In no less a need than Ireland is to Irish, Scotland is to Scots or France is to French, etc.
To argue that Israel treats it's Muslim citizens poorly can be equated to how America treats many of it's citizens or any other nation's treatment of secular peoples. Yes, it is wrong..........but it doesn't equate to elimination of the nation.
We don't have to bargain with the Israeli religio zealots. We just reach into our tax dollars and shell out hundreds of millions of dollars a day to support them. It's their money. I earned it. We have to stand on our support of Israel by IRS law.

Your comparison of Israel to Ireland is most interesting. Ireland is divided into two parts. Ireland is a divided island. So apparently you support dividing Israel into two parts.

I realize we treat many of our citizens as Israel treats the Palestinians. Every day we see in the news where American soldiers bomb areas of American cities of people we don't like. We see the news stories about soldiers outside OB/GYN clinics waiting to make their assaults. It happens everyday just like you said.

[n9yb]

Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Dec. 03 2007,23:31)]How many Israeli troops are in Iraq, right now? This &quot;ally&quot; of ours? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
You asked the wrong question.

Will Iraq allow Israeli troops on their soil?

[kd5kfl]

KC7JTY: you are absolutely right. I composed that in 13 minutes, immediately after you posted. Let my dinner get cold, because everything is about you. Had nothing to do with the other half dozen uses of antisemitic which preceded it.

W2ILP, you have a reading comprehension problem. I won't bother straightening you out, because you woulf have a problem comprehending the straightening out.

[W0JBC]

It appears many people care ..


I Don't ....

This thread exhibits why religion and politics should not be in the amateur forums .....

Let us see how far this thread ( pages ) goes ...

I have more fun reading about the CW threads .... They make more sense ...


JB

[N9XR]

Quote[/b] (kd5kfl @ Dec. 04 2007,02:56)]KC7JTY: you are absolutely right. I composed that in 13 minutes, immediately after you posted. Let my dinner get cold, because everything is about you. Had nothing to do with the other half dozen uses of antisemitic which preceded it.

W2ILP, you have a reading comprehension problem. I won't bother straightening you out, because you woulf have a problem comprehending the straightening out.
I woulf have a problem comprehending your attacks as well.

JBC:

Spending tax dollars on a welfare nation is a religion like you say. I had not thought about it in that manner before, but you are right.

[kc2orw]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 03 2007,22:21)]Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Dec. 03 2007,18:10)]Is it too late for the US to mind its own business? Surely we need a change from our present policies.
It is not too late, but it is too wise.
I agree with ILP and think, at the very least, that Ron Paul is wrong or certainly presents his position incorrectly.
I sincerely doubt that if we change our policy tomorrow that all will suddenly be right in the world regarding our relationship with the rest of the world.
I imagine it will take ten years or more for any effects to be felt. Even then things will still never be perfect, plus ten years allows for more mistakes to be made. That would also mean that we need more then two terms of one President and the Congress too. When you think about it you have to think to yourself that Congress has a lot of the same names there that have been there for 10, 20, and 30 years. So might be that all these folks, every single one of them, has to be gotten rid of to ensure that changes actually occur.

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ Dec. 04 2007,08:26)]I sincerely doubt that if we change our policy tomorrow that all will suddenly be right in the world regarding our relationship with the rest of the world.
Of course not.

Quote[/b] ]I imagine it will take ten years or more for any effects to be felt. Even then things will still never be perfect, plus ten years allows for more mistakes to be made.

The effects of a change to a less aggressive foreign policy would be felt immediately, but you are right that it would take many years for trust to be established in the minds of those who see us as having blood on our hands.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (W0JBC @ Dec. 04 2007,08:06)]It appears many people care ..


I Don't .... #

This thread exhibits why religion and politics should not be in the amateur forums ..... #

Let us see how far this thread ( pages ) goes ...

I have more fun reading about the CW threads .... #They make more sense ...


JB
yeah, but you're here.

[N9XR]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 04 2007,07:19)]Quote[/b] (W0JBC @ Dec. 04 2007,08:06)]It appears many people care ..


I Don't ....

This thread exhibits why religion and politics should not be in the amateur forums .....

Let us see how far this thread ( pages ) goes ...

I have more fun reading about the CW threads .... They make more sense ...


JB
yeah, but you're here.
Bill,

You got to admit though that he does have a nice pair of dits.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (n9yb @ Dec. 04 2007,07:02)]Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Dec. 03 2007,23:31)]How many Israeli troops are in Iraq, right now? #This &quot;ally&quot; of ours? #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
You asked the wrong question.

Will Iraq allow Israeli troops on their soil?
what the hell are you talking about? Iraq is an occupied country. Did they allow American and British troops on their soil? Would they like them to all leave now?

[W2ILP]

There is Biblical history and there is academic history. Sometimes they conflict. We read in the Bible that Moses led the Jewish people out of Egypt at a time when historians who read the walls inside of the Egyptian pyramids say it would have been impossible...because the wrong Pharaoh was the leader of Egypt at that time.

Another question is about the legend of the 12 tribes of Israel and Judea. There were supposed to be 12 tribes, because there are 12 tribes mentioned at the bottom of many Chanaka candelabras...but alas some Jewish sages say that only the children of 11 tribes can be accounted for in the modern world. I once asked a Talmudic student &quot;What happened to the lost tribe?&quot;. He though about it for a while, and answered, &quot;How can we be certain that all Jews have not been lost?&quot;

w2ilp (Identified Lost People)...They are us!

[kc2orw]

Alright let's get back to the main inspiration for this post. I heard a radio ad from a group calling itself True Torah Jews. Their position is that the Torah does not claim the Jews need to be in Israel. The Zionist movement ascribes to the notion that they should/must be in Israel.
The Zionist seem to be one of the greatest source of problems in the world and this group claims they are wrong.

They claim there is no justification contained in the Torah, I buy into that one. So if the Zionist get pushed back, and they seemed to have lost their iron grip in Israel, can peace be negotiated if some things could be given back by Israel.
Peace at the mere signing of a peace treaty seems unlikely. But if Jerusalem and other holdings were less important to the people in Israel then is a real peace possible.

Here is a link to the groups web site containing their brief version of the history of Zionism...
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/history.cfm

[wa2dtw]

Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ Nov. 30 2007,15:32)]I sometimes wonder that I might see the, hopefully non violent, demise of Israel in my lifetime...
It seems we've come complete circle.
I would rather hope to see the demise of this thread.

[kc2orw]

Quote[/b] (wa2dtw @ Dec. 04 2007,16:25)]Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ Nov. 30 2007,15:32)]I sometimes wonder that I might see the, hopefully non violent, demise of Israel in my lifetime...
It seems we've come complete circle.
I would rather hope to see the demise of this thread.
Ah thats what you get when you try to do... just one last post... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[W0JBC]

Well folks, as I stated two ( 2 ) for who cannot read, Thank you for all the history . That region has been in flux for three ( 3 ) thousand years .

Also, KC7JTY , I am glad you got your killer general ... dits ...

Now you are a wizard . Have fun .


It is your business and &quot; HOBBY&quot;....


Jam...


JB

WØJBC

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ Nov. 30 2007,15:32)]I sometimes wonder that I might see the, hopefully non violent, demise of Israel in my lifetime...
Only if our demise comes first, for from what I can gather, this country would expend even the last molecule of it's existance for prescious Israel.

[n9yb]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 04 2007,17:24)]Quote[/b] (n9yb @ Dec. 04 2007,07:02)]Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Dec. 03 2007,23:31)]How many Israeli troops are in Iraq, right now? This &quot;ally&quot; of ours? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
You asked the wrong question.

Will Iraq allow Israeli troops on their soil?
what the hell are you talking about? Iraq is an occupied country. Did they allow American and British troops on their soil? Would they like them to all leave now?
The Iraqi's wouldn't allow it. It is occupied, but we respect the various wishes of the administration that was installed.

Remember the Saudi's on the subject of Jews on their soil during the 1st Gulf War?

[W0JBC]

JTY:

You hung the the flag out ... However, I stll don't care .



JB

[k2vhw]

Quote[/b] (n9xr @ Dec. 04 2007,07:00)]Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Dec. 03 2007,17:54)]Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Dec. 03 2007,18:01)]w2ilp ( I Like Peace)...Unfortunately religious fanatics can not.........................
That's the bottom line! #I've said it before and maintain it yet, &quot;zealots, religious zealots, cannot be bargained with&quot;.
But I will stand on my support for Israel to exist. #In no less a need than Ireland is to Irish, Scotland is to Scots or France is to French, etc.
To argue that Israel treats it's Muslim citizens poorly can be equated to how America treats many of it's citizens or any other nation's treatment of secular peoples. Yes, it is wrong..........but it doesn't equate to elimination of the nation.

Your comparison of Israel to Ireland is most interesting. #Ireland is divided into two parts. #Ireland is a divided island. #So apparently you support dividing Israel into two parts.

I realize we treat many of our citizens as Israel treats the Palestinians. #Every day we see in the news where American soldiers bomb areas of American cities of people we don't like. #We see the news stories about soldiers outside OB/GYN clinics waiting to make their assaults. #It happens everyday just like you said.
NO! On comparison of nations to its people, I made an abreviated list. I do not equate the separation of Ireland to a separated Israel. Let me show you your err.
'Israel is to Jewish peoples as Ireland is to the Irish, either to the Church of England or to the Catholic Church!'
....Israel is to Jewish peoples as Saudi Arabia is to its Muslim peoples, Israel is to Jewish peoples as any other nation is to the peoples it represents.
The mistreatment of any of a nations' peoples is wrong be it in Israel, U.S.A., Saudi Arabia, The Sudan or any other place on earth. Yes, and we see the stories of how the Saudi court sentenced a rape victim with corporal punishment because she couldn't stop a gang rape!
You find reason to admonish Israel but ignore Muslim Saudi Arabia?
Your views are skewed, slanted, far from impartial and denote an unreasonable dislike (or hatred) for Israel.

Israel isn't the opiate of America........middle east oil is!
Who has all the oil??? certainly not Israel!

[N9XR]

Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Dec. 04 2007,15:41)]Quote[/b] (n9xr @ Dec. 04 2007,07:00)]Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Dec. 03 2007,17:54)]Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Dec. 03 2007,18:01)]w2ilp ( I Like Peace)...Unfortunately religious fanatics can not.........................
That's the bottom line! I've said it before and maintain it yet, &quot;zealots, religious zealots, cannot be bargained with&quot;.
But I will stand on my support for Israel to exist. In no less a need than Ireland is to Irish, Scotland is to Scots or France is to French, etc.
To argue that Israel treats it's Muslim citizens poorly can be equated to how America treats many of it's citizens or any other nation's treatment of secular peoples. Yes, it is wrong..........but it doesn't equate to elimination of the nation.

Your comparison of Israel to Ireland is most interesting. Ireland is divided into two parts. Ireland is a divided island. So apparently you support dividing Israel into two parts.

I realize we treat many of our citizens as Israel treats the Palestinians. Every day we see in the news where American soldiers bomb areas of American cities of people we don't like. We see the news stories about soldiers outside OB/GYN clinics waiting to make their assaults. It happens everyday just like you said.
NO! On comparison of nations to its people, I made an abreviated list. I do not equate the separation of Ireland to a separated Israel. Let me show you your err.
'Israel is to Jewish peoples as Ireland is to the Irish, either to the Church of England or to the Catholic Church!'
....Israel is to Jewish peoples as Saudi Arabia is to its Muslim peoples, Israel is to Jewish peoples as any other nation is to the peoples it represents.
The mistreatment of any of a nations' peoples is wrong be it in Israel, U.S.A., Saudi Arabia, The Sudan or any other place on earth. Yes, and we see the stories of how the Saudi court sentenced a rape victim with corporal punishment because she couldn't stop a gang rape!
You find reason to admonish Israel but ignore Muslim Saudi Arabia?
Your views are skewed, slanted, far from impartial and denote an unreasonable dislike (or hatred) for Israel.

Israel isn't the opiate of America........middle east oil is!
Who has all the oil??? certainly not Israel!
Either you stand behind your comment or you don't.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (n9yb @ Dec. 04 2007,19:19)]#It is occupied, but we respect the various wishes of the administration that was installed.
Yeah...installed, the puppet fix we put onto them. Thank God the troop surge is working.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (W0JBC @ Dec. 04 2007,20:12)]JTY:

You hung the the flag out ... #However, I stll don't care .



JB
10-4 you wincer. Continue to cry, wiggle, and squirm, you care so much it hurts.
....and yet you are still here with your face right up against the glass.

try laying off the round tuits for a while and see what happens.

[kc7jty]

&quot;Israel isn't the opiate of America........middle east oil is!
Who has all the oil??? certainly not Israel&quot;

sooth it away in your own mind my son, I understand.
Israel is indeed the opiate of America, and you are living proof.

[kk7ue]

The more people pick on Israel, the closer armageddon seems. Kewl

[KP3FT]

Quote[/b] (kc7jty @ Dec. 04 2007,18:55)]Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ Nov. 30 2007,15:32)]I sometimes wonder that I might see the, hopefully non violent, demise of Israel in my lifetime...
Only if our demise comes first, for from what I can gather, this country would expend even the last molecule of it's existance for prescious Israel.
You guys scare me. As I said before, Israel is a friend and ally. Turning our backs on them would be cowardly. Why is Israel a problem to you? Israel is not the problem; you are ignoring the real problem: the Islamic people who want Israel eliminated.
Your earlier analogy of the situation is very odd and somewhat chilling; a fat man (USA) abandoning his cat (Israel) to save his own skin. Israel is not a pet cat, of lesser value than a man, and therefore expendable. Israel is a legitimate sovereign nation. Go back in time and see who the instigators were... What would be our present situation if Israel was simply left alone in the very beginning by their neighboring Arab countries?
We could abandon Israel. A better analogy would involve two men who are friends. One is threatened and attacked by his neighbors. The other friend runs to save his own skin. That's what you apparently want. Look at the real source of the problem: Arab extremists.
Friendship and alliance does not require an equal trade of money, etc. If that is how you view it, you guys must have very few friends. We do give aid to Israel, most of which goes to their military. However, we also have a trade agreement with them, and they purchase military equipment from us which helps our own economy. Israel has also developed several military weapon technologies we we have now implemented.

[N2KW]

I cannot believe some of the ignorance that I found in this thread!

Tell me ...was there dancing in the streets of Tel Aviv after 9-11?
Did little Jewish boys throw rocks at their Palestinian neighbors?
Does Israel lob rockets into the Gaza strip? Strap bombs to themselves?

Some people don't seem to care who their allies are, because they are so blinded by their hatred of a group that they know absolutely nothing about.

I am a &quot;cultural&quot; Jew. I go to Temple one day a year. I eat lobster, shrimp and catfish. I fish. I camp. I look just like you. You would never know my extraction if I didn't tell you. I would never deny my lineage.

I believe in the self-determination of ALL indigenous peoples. There SHOULD be a Palestininan homeland. There SHOULD be a &quot;Kurdistan&quot; a &quot;Kalistan&quot;, an independent Chechnya. The Tamils deserve their own country in Sri Lanka. Cyprus is de facto partitioned, why not recognize the Turkish Republic? Cabinda should be a DXCC entity. Ditto Kosovo. (Actually, Kosovo will be the next addition to the DXCC list, you heard it here first ....or second!)

Israel has the right to exist within secure borders. Until the Palestinians agree with that concept, Israel is absolutely correct in keeping them out. If you let them in, it will only increase the death rate.

&quot;Home&quot; is a place where you can go, and never fear being expelled. EVERYBODY deserves a home ....Jews included. Everybody feels most comfortable with &quot;their own kind.&quot; If you don't believe that, go to any college cafeteria, and study the lunchroom. I don't hear Jews whining about &quot;reparations&quot; from Morocco, Algeria, or Iran!

The Al-Aqasa Mosque was built on the ruins of a great temple. Who was there first? How many Christians are still in (Bethlehem) the birthplace of Christ? Wasn't Jesus himself a Jew? How do you think He would feel about what is happening to his people? How do you think the Prince of Peace, a charismatic man of Love, would feel about the hatred spewed by ignorant @$$#0!&amp;$ who CLAIM to follow His teachings?

I just had to vent. Now I feel better. I don't suspect that I have changed any minds. Why confuse someone with facts if their mind is made up? Pearlsbefore swine ...or something like that!

Peace

Allen N2KW

[N2KW]

By the way, it isn't so much that the Jews are in Israel ...

But rather that Israel is in the Jews!

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (N2KW @ Dec. 05 2007,09:40)]#I look just like you. #You would never know my extraction if I didn't tell you. #
opportunity lost.

[N4AUD]

I have nothing against anyone who is Jewish. I am against our involvement in the Middle East, including Israel. How many more Americans have to die to prove to us that the Middle East is the wrong side of town and that we should leave it the hell alone?

[n9yb]

Quote[/b] ]I believe in the self-determination of ALL indigenous peoples. There SHOULD be a Palestininan homeland. There SHOULD be a &quot;Kurdistan&quot; a &quot;Kalistan&quot;, an independent Chechnya. The Tamils deserve their own country in Sri Lanka. Cyprus is de facto partitioned, why not recognize the Turkish Republic?


What about San Francisco?

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (n4aud @ Dec. 05 2007,13:48)]I have nothing against anyone who is Jewish. #I am against our involvement in the Middle East, including Israel. #How many more Americans have to die to prove to us that the Middle East is the wrong side of town and that we should leave it the hell alone?
BINGO!

[kc2orw]

Finally more then two people get this thread, yay!
The rest get an 'F' for reading comprehension and lack of focus http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[W2ILP]

n2kw

There was no dancing in the streets of Israel immediately after 9/11 BUT there were some Jews who danced in the streets of Israel when they saw that the USA was willing to attack Iraq for them.

Little Israeli boys did not need to throw rocks at their Palestinian neighbors because the military big boys and big men of Israel attacked the little Palestinian boys using helicopters and tanks that were given to them by the USA.

Yes... There should be a Palestinian state and ALL humans should be treated with the same humane consideration regardless of their religions or lack of religions. #Unfortunately ..either you do not understand the facts of reality or you do not really believe in the equality of ALL humans.

Israel isn't in all Jews...and certainly all Jews are not in Israel. #Even some of the Jews who were born in Israel have since managed to escape...that is if they could afford to. #Many American born Jews have found Israel to be a nice place to visit...but don't want their sons to get drafted there.

w2ilp (I Like People)...Children must be taught not to hate by good examples. #They are not born loving everyone as some may surmise. #It is a shame that most religions do not teach all children to respect and even love everyone regardless of differing religion.

[N9XR]

Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Dec. 05 2007,10:37)]n2kw

There was no dancing in the streets of Israel immediately after 9/11 BUT there were some Jews who danced in the streets of Israel when they saw that the USA was willing to attack Iraq for them.

Little Israeli boys did not need to throw rocks at their Palestinian neighbors because the military big boys and big men of Israel attacked the little Palestinian boys using helicopters and tanks that were given to them by the USA.

Yes... There should be a Palestinian state and ALL humans should be treated with the same humane consideration regardless of their religions or lack of religions. Unfortunately ..either you do not understand the facts of reality or you do not really believe in the equality of ALL humans.

Israel isn't in all Jews...and certainly all Jews are not in Israel. Even some of the Jews who were born in Israel have since managed to escape...that is if they could afford to. Many American born Jews have found Israel to be a nice place to visit...but don't want their sons to get drafted there.

w2ilp (I Like People)...Children must be taught not to hate by good examples. They are not born loving everyone as some may surmise. It is a shame that most religions do not teach all children to respect and even love everyone regardless of differing religion.
AMEN.

Well said. The day we stop funding the deaths of innocent people is the day we begin creating a better world.

[KP3FT]

Quote[/b] (n9xr @ Dec. 05 2007,16:26)]Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Dec. 05 2007,10:37)]n2kw

There was no dancing in the streets of Israel immediately after 9/11 BUT there were some Jews who danced in the streets of Israel when they saw that the USA was willing to attack Iraq for them.

Little Israeli boys did not need to throw rocks at their Palestinian neighbors because the military big boys and big men of Israel attacked the little Palestinian boys using helicopters and tanks that were given to them by the USA.

Yes... There should be a Palestinian state and ALL humans should be treated with the same humane consideration regardless of their religions or lack of religions. Unfortunately ..either you do not understand the facts of reality or you do not really believe in the equality of ALL humans.

Israel isn't in all Jews...and certainly all Jews are not in Israel. Even some of the Jews who were born in Israel have since managed to escape...that is if they could afford to. Many American born Jews have found Israel to be a nice place to visit...but don't want their sons to get drafted there.

w2ilp (I Like People)...Children must be taught not to hate by good examples. They are not born loving everyone as some may surmise. It is a shame that most religions do not teach all children to respect and even love everyone regardless of differing religion.
AMEN.

Well said. The day we stop funding the deaths of innocent people is the day we begin creating a better world.
You guys need to read the history. Israel became a nation and was immediately attacked. The Palestinian refugee situation is a result of the Arab attacks, not Israel kicking them out. For example, here's a quote from someone who would know:

Walid Shoebat a former PLO terrorist writes:
&quot;When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out
The Israeli Arab Conflict is not about geography but about Jew hatred; Throughout the Islamic as well as Christendom’s history Jews have been persecuted, the persecution of Israel is just the same as the old antisemitism.
The Arab refugees are being used as pawns’ to create a terror breeding ground, as a form of aggression against Israel.
The Arab refugee problem was caused by Arab aggression and not Israel. Why should Israel be responsible for their fate?&quot;

In fact, in the year prior to Israel becoming a nation, Arabs were already leaving the area of Palestine. Israel in the beginning wanted peace in their little postage-stamp-sized real-estate (Arab lands comprise 650 times the land mass of Israel). Israel even went so far as to give land back as a peaceful gesture. However, that's not enough for some people. To many, Israel must be completely eradicated. Typical left-field mentality...digest the propaganda and then blame the victim...
Focus your wrath on the people at fault.

[N2KW]

Jews dancing in the streets when the USA invaded Iraq for them?
Nice visual, but contrary to history!
Israel bombed Iraq's nuclear facility 25 years ago.
The whole world rose up in protest against them.
They said &quot;But it was Zaddam Hussein&quot;
They said &quot;But Zaddam Hussein was developing an atomic bomb&quot;
The UN condemned them, even the United States abstained!
But behind the scene, America thanked them.
When this last go-round got started, America told Israel on no uncertain terms to stay away. It was the general feeling that if Israel were involved, Zaddam would go out in flames, throwing everything it had against &quot;the Zionist entity.&quot;

Israel and Jordan are the only friends that we have in the region.
Remember when Jesse Jackson went to Syria to negotiate the release of an American Airman? Remember when Israel took out 5 countries trying to destroy it? That took 6 days! Pandering to the Arabs won't get you cheaper oil! The Saudi's hate us, the Syrians hate us, the Iraquis hate us, even Turkey decides when and when not to co-operate with our wishes. Israel will always be on our side, which is why we are on their side.

Before you say ANYTHING else, answer this first.

&quot;Does Israel have the right to exist within secure borders?&quot;

If your answer is &quot;NO&quot;, I am really not interested in anything else that you have to say.

If your answer is &quot;YES&quot;, I will listen to anything else that may follow.

I think that I have made it clear that I believe ALL indigenous peoples deserve a homeland. Jews are people. If you don't believe that the Hebrews deserve a homeland, we are not likely to agree on anything else.

[N4AUD]

I don't believe it's any of my business whether Israel has a right to exist within secure borders. That's my whole point. I don't have a yes or no answer because I don't think Israel or Middle East oil is worth the life of ONE American.

[k2vhw]

Quote[/b] (n4aud @ Dec. 05 2007,13:48)]I have nothing against anyone who is Jewish. #I am against our involvement in the Middle East, including Israel. #How many more Americans have to die to prove to us that the Middle East is the wrong side of town and that we should leave it the hell alone?
A. There are NO Americans dying in Israel or 'Palestine'.
B. You can thank your buddy G.W.Bush for our presence in the 'middle east' (spell that Iraq,Afghanistan)
C. Oil interests in ARAB oil is the 'candy' that draws the Bu####es and the repugnicans and their lies that prevailed.
D. So we shouldn't be involved? I suppose you realize the impact of not helping Israel defend itself against terrorism? Perhaps you think it was wrong for the U.S.A. to rise in helping defend France, England and the rest of Europe against Hitler? You see the analogy? Hitler/Saddam/Al Quaida/Imperial Japan/WTC-NYC........

If you stick your head in the sand you'll get your butt blown off because those extremists don't like you either!

[N3RQ]

Quote[/b] (n4aud @ Dec. 05 2007,20:56)]I don't believe it's any of my business whether Israel has a right to exist within secure borders. That's my whole point. I don't have a yes or no answer because I don't think Israel or Middle East oil is worth the life of ONE American.
Amen!

[k2vhw]

Quote[/b] (N3RQ @ Dec. 05 2007,21:33)]Quote[/b] (n4aud @ Dec. 05 2007,20:56)]I don't believe it's any of my business whether Israel has a right to exist within secure borders. #That's my whole point. #I don't have a yes or no answer because I don't think Israel or Middle East oil is worth the life of ONE American.
Amen!
Then you'd better get out into the streets and work really hard to convince everyone they don't need their pick-ups and SUV's; that our industries don't need energy to promote commerce and you can live very well without oil/gas to heat your home in winter.
OIL, sonny, OIL is why we're there so YOU can drive your 4x4 and have all those great energy-required conveniences.
AMERICA and AMERICANS are really to blame for gluttony
and your pals in Washington merely fulfill your needs (oil).
So just stop with the damnation of Israel, it stinks with the stench of demagoguery.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (n4aud @ Dec. 05 2007,20:56)]I don't believe it's any of my business whether Israel has a right to exist within secure borders. #That's my whole point. #I don't have a yes or no answer because I don't think Israel or Middle East oil is worth the life of ONE American.
BINGO TWO

[N4AUD]

Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Dec. 06 2007,00:31)]Quote[/b] (n4aud @ Dec. 05 2007,13:48)]I have nothing against anyone who is Jewish. I am against our involvement in the Middle East, including Israel. How many more Americans have to die to prove to us that the Middle East is the wrong side of town and that we should leave it the hell alone?
A. There are NO Americans dying in Israel or 'Palestine'.
B. You can thank your buddy G.W.Bush for our presence in the 'middle east' (spell that Iraq,Afghanistan)
C. Oil interests in ARAB oil is the 'candy' that draws the Bu####es and the repugnicans and their lies that prevailed.
D. So we shouldn't be involved? I suppose you realize the impact of not helping Israel defend itself against terrorism? Perhaps you think it was wrong for the U.S.A. to rise in helping defend France, England and the rest of Europe against Hitler? You see the analogy? Hitler/Saddam/Al Quaida/Imperial Japan/WTC-NYC........

If you stick your head in the sand you'll get your butt blown off because those extremists don't like you either!
A. Americans aren't dying in the Middle East, or at the hands of Middle Easterners?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Oh my, I've been misinformed.
B. Excuse me, my buddy G. W. Bush?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif He ain't my buddy, and we've been up to our necks in the Middle East since WWII.
C. Yes, we need to wean ourselves from Middle Eastern oil as rapidly as possible. No argument there.
D. You need a history lesson on WWII. Germany declared war on us FIRST. Germany invaded Czechoslovakia in 1939. We weren't at war with Germany until 1941, and really took no offensive action against Germany until 1942. When Germany invaded France we didn't do ANYTHING.
No, I don't see the analogy because there isn't one.

I think there are a lot of people here who want us to stay mixed up with Israel on religious grounds...you aren't one of them are you?

PS. I forgot. When we first went across the Atlantic in WWII and attacked at several points in North Africa, in many of the locations we were fighting FRENCH troops. Many US GI's lost their lives at the hands of French soldiers when we invaded North Africa.

[kc7jty]

Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Dec. 05 2007,21:46)]Quote[/b] (N3RQ @ Dec. 05 2007,21:33)]Quote[/b] (n4aud @ Dec. 05 2007,20:56)]I don't believe it's any of my business whether Israel has a right to exist within secure borders. #That's my whole point. #I don't have a yes or no answer because I don't think Israel or Middle East oil is worth the life of ONE American.
Amen!
Then you'd better get out into the streets and work really hard to convince everyone they don't need their pick-ups and SUV's; that our industries don't need energy to promote commerce and you can live very well without oil/gas to heat your home in winter.
OIL, sonny, OIL is why we're there so YOU can drive your 4x4 and have all those great energy-required conveniences.
AMERICA and AMERICANS are really to blame for gluttony
and your pals in Washington merely fulfill your needs (oil).
So just stop with the damnation of Israel, it stinks with the stench of demagoguery.
Richard Pearle and Paul Wolfowitz weren't oil men.

Honest and reasonable thought really irks your castle in the clouds doesn't it?

&quot;How Hubris, Ideology, and Greed Are Tearing America Apart&quot;
it's a book

[k2vhw]

Quote[/b] (n4aud @ Dec. 05 2007,21:50)]Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Dec. 06 2007,00:31)]Quote[/b] (n4aud @ Dec. 05 2007,13:48)]I have nothing against anyone who is Jewish. #I am against our involvement in the Middle East, including Israel. #How many more Americans have to die to prove to us that the Middle East is the wrong side of town and that we should leave it the hell alone?
A. There are NO Americans dying in Israel or 'Palestine'.
B. You can thank your buddy G.W.Bush for our presence in the 'middle east' (spell that Iraq,Afghanistan)
C. Oil interests in ARAB oil is the 'candy' that draws the #Bu####es and the repugnicans and their lies that prevailed.
D. So we shouldn't be involved? I suppose you realize the impact of not helping Israel defend itself against terrorism? Perhaps you think it was wrong for the U.S.A. to rise in helping defend France, England and the rest of Europe against Hitler? You see the analogy? Hitler/Saddam/Al Quaida/Imperial Japan/WTC-NYC........