Unions

[kk7ue]

Here is my dilemma and Im hoping some of you have had a similar situation and/or have an answer to this. Politics aside - this is for real. Some of you have probably seen this before in one fashion or another.

I started a new job today and the outfit is so new, the facility isnt even finished yet. Since I am going on as maintenance, this is neat to see the facility from the ground up, literally! Here is the scene, one I have never experienced before. The management realizes that the 'culture' (their words not mine) out here is pro union and anticipates that the hourlys will want to bring in a union. Of course, they are leaving the choice up to the employees and want us to decide

1) Do we want a union, and
2) Which one

They say (& I believe it) that several have been trolling for 'customers' (my phrase) and at some point will try to contact us. All is fine with me on this. Here is my problem so far.

In my limited research so far, I am torn as to which union would best represent a bio fuel facility. ICWU & UFCW are basically the same one right? Would united steelworkers be the appropriate chioce? I am a 'withdrawn' Teamster currently and my last job has been my only exposure to a union shop. Im sure they would like the business as well but not sure if thats the right one.

Any elmering on the ins and outs of unions and in particular, picking one for a newly minted shop would be greatly appreciated. I can tell some of you have been in the union game quite a while and I would certainly appreciate your expertise and personal feelings in this. My God, I am confused about which way to turn. Hourly #4 comes on tomorrow, so whadda ya think?

Thanks

[N5NPO]

Perhaps you could form and start your own new union. Who says you have to join someone elses union? You could start the bio fuel workers of America (BFWA) union.

[W3MIV]

Why do you feel you need a union? That would seem to me to be the fundamental question.

A union is valuable if the company is "reluctant" to provide the range of modern emoluments and added benefits that are typical for the industry and labor positions under consideration. There are many companies now manufacturing in open-shop states in which the employees have consistently voted against union organization; this is especially true of auto manufacturing in the South.

If the salary structure and benefits (including retirement) packages offered by the company are generally in line with those of the industry standards, why burden yourself with an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy and saddle yourself with union dues?

[kg4kww]

Unions, which are best? Those approved by God.

[n2ize]

Unions are not needed. They never were. They were merely a tool used by greedy workers to take advantage of the noblemen. Thanks toi unios we got the greedy and self centered middle class that has been bringing communism to our nation. If you work in a place that has a union my best advice is... GET RID OF IT. If one comes along lock the doors and keep them out.

[n2jso]

I've never had a union job (I'm a computer programmer), and in general, I don't like unions. However, you mentioned the UFCW, and my wife recently left a job represented by the UFCW, so I thought I'd comment.

The UFCW, at least her local, are completely useless. There were serious issues with safety and poor working conditions, and the union was useless when complaints were brought to them. They also cannot get their act together regarding paperwork for benefits, etc.

Years ago, my wife was a member of the CWA, and they were the opposite of the UFCW. All grievances and complaints were handled swiftly and they really looked out for the members. It made things difficult for management, of course, but the unionized workers had it good.

[al2i]

Contact the OCAW. You did not hear this from me. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

OCAW Website. (http://www.webshells.com/ocaw/)

http://www.webshells.com/ocaw/5555.gif

[N3ATS]

What IS a union? A group of people that is only as strong as the people in it.

Most unions, err people, lack the fighting spirit and are viewed then as useless, because they are just like most of the citizens in our great country. Unwilling to fight an wait for others to make their decisions for them.

If you join a union, OM be active, and fight. Do whatever it takes.

[kl7aj]

I like those purple ones, sliced very thin.

[WB2WIK]

I'm about to form a new Union called The Free Thinkers Who Keep Earning A Living When The Other Idiots Are On A Picket Line, or TFTWKEALWTOIAOAPL for short.

I have a few dozen film/television writers signing up...as they're running out of money since they haven't been paid in a month.

[NL7W]

Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ Nov. 30 2007,11:41)]I'm about to form a new Union called The Free Thinkers Who Keep Earning A Living When The Other Idiots Are On A Picket Line, or TFTWKEALWTOIAOAPL for short.

I have a few dozen film/television writers signing up...as they're running out of money since they haven't been paid in a month.
That's amazing!

[n2ize]

The problem with Unions is that they are communist organizations. The goal of unions is to destroy our foundations. How do they accomplish this ? By creating a middle class. It's starts with demands for higher wages, benefits, etc. Next thing you have is a strong middle class. Laborers and everyday common people are not meant to be rich and have luxuries. They are not capable of such provisions.

The middle class is the most destructive force that America (and the world) has ever had to deal with.

[ad4mg]

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Nov. 30 2007,06:55)]Why do you feel you need a union? That would seem to me to be the fundamental question.

A union is valuable if the company is "reluctant" to provide the range of modern emoluments and added benefits that are typical for the industry and labor positions under consideration. There are many companies now manufacturing in open-shop states in which the employees have consistently voted against union organization; this is especially true of auto manufacturing in the South.

If the salary structure and benefits (including retirement) packages offered by the company are generally in line with those of the industry standards, why burden yourself with an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy and saddle yourself with union dues?
This is good advice, and I'm a card carrying union craftsman. It's going to depend on your employer, and the relationship you develop with them.

If they provide you with a fair wage, and decent benefits, I wouldn't think union involvement is necessary. In my opinion, unions generally protect the weakest workers at the expense of the more skillful, productive workers. That is my main gripe about unions.

On the other hand, unions do a fine job of protecting all workers from corporate greed. It's a delicate balancing act that few unions do well.

I give my local a "B+" ... Plumbers and Steamfitters Local Union #10, and the U.A. training is the best available in the industry.

But, we generally have a good relationship with our contractors and clients.

It's a tough decision. You'll have to evaluate your decision based on what the union will offer, and what your employer offers.

I wish you the best!

73,
Luke

[KC9JIQ]

Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Nov. 30 2007,05:04)]Unions, which are best? Those approved by God.
Amen! # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

If the employer treats their workers well then, no, no union needed.

Unions DID have their place, back before things could be easily outsourced. #Unions are most effective on j0bs that cannot be outsourced like railroads, etc.

Unions are bad in my opinion, they make you pay dues, that support politicians you disagree with. #Also in my State Illinois, if you are hired by a unionized company, then you have to join the union. #I really like the ideal of the union being voluntary, you don't have to join it if you don't want to, in order to work at a factory.

Unions are also bad, instead of working to do a good job, it becomes more like working to screw the company!

[n9yb]

What do you hope to get out of union representation?

[kd5kfl]

In my experience unions price workers out of a job. Not at first, but over time.

When I see closed down factories in big cities, covering many square miles, I have to wonder how many were union shops.

[ad4mg]

Quote[/b] (kd5kfl @ Nov. 30 2007,19:13)]In my experience unions price workers out of a job. Not at first, but over time.

When I see closed down factories in big cities, covering many square miles, I have to wonder how many were union shops.
Wow. LU 10 has only been around for about 106 years.

I guess we'll price ourselves out of the market any time now ...

One problem with unions is the typical, not necessarily factual, stereotypes that always surface during a discussion about unions. Always.

Why is it that people who don't belong to a union HATE with every fiber of their being, the unions they don't support? And that they know nothing about?

Union members don't hate their non-union counterparts. Not like they used to. In Virginia, it's common to have both union and open shop contractors on a job. We're all actually friends. We borrow and lend tools and equipment from/to each other (within reason ... have to keep the contractor's interest in mind) all the time.

I hesitate to enter a discussion about unions for that reason. So much hatred, worse than regular politics.

[kf6rdn]

Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ Nov. 30 2007,11:41)]I'm about to form a new Union called The Free Thinkers Who Keep Earning A Living When The Other Idiots Are On A Picket Line, or TFTWKEALWTOIAOAPL for short.

I have a few dozen film/television writers signing up...as they're running out of money since they haven't been paid in a month.
They have an offer on the table or shortly will that I think they will end up taking.

[k9kjm]

Over the years I have been on both sides of the union fence question. Years ago I not only was a card carrying union member, But a steward also!
Many years ago there is no doubt that some labor unions were really needed to prevent serious opression by some big business leaders.
Those same labor unions also helped pass many laws that now protect all workers, Union or not. In a sense, taking away the real need for unions!

Nowadays, As mentioned, Unions stick up for the poor performing employee, AND send lots of money ("Contributed" against the will of many members) to the DNC!

[WF7A]

"Emolument", Albert? You know better than to toss four-syllable words around in 'QRZ; you'll lose everybody. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Having belonged to a number of different unions as a requirement of accepting jobs, in my experience they haven't done much to improve my pay or working conditions. My contention with paying mandatory dues is where does the money go? I couldn't find anyone in the union(s) who could give me a straight answer...if they had one at all.

My philosophy is, if you don't like your workplace then find another job.

Speaking of unions, has the IBEW ever struck? When have you ever heard of electricians walking off the job?

[N3RQ]

Quote[/b] (WF7A @ Dec. 01 2007,09:51)]Speaking of unions, has the IBEW ever struck? When have you ever heard of electricians walking off the job?
My dad was an electronics technician whose job was controlled by the IBEW. He went on strike several times during his career.

As much as I dislike unions, they do protect older workers from age discrimination. My dad would have never been able to remain an individual contributor until retirement had he not been protected by a union.

[ke7imb]

Quote[/b] (kk7ue @ Nov. 29 2007,14:46)]Here is my dilemma and Im hoping some of you have had a similar situation and/or have an answer to this. Politics aside - this is for real. Some of you have probably seen this before in one fashion or another.

I started a new job today and the outfit is so new, the facility isnt even finished yet. Since I am going on as maintenance, this is neat to see the facility from the ground up, literally! Here is the scene, one I have never experienced before. The management realizes that the 'culture' (their words not mine) out here is pro union and anticipates that the hourlys will want to bring in a union. Of course, they are leaving the choice up to the employees and want us to decide

1) Do we want a union, and
2) Which one

They say (& I believe it) that several have been trolling for 'customers' (my phrase) and at some point will try to contact us. All is fine with me on this. Here is my problem so far.

In my limited research so far, I am torn as to which union would best represent a bio fuel facility. ICWU & UFCW are basically the same one right? Would united steelworkers be the appropriate chioce? I am a 'withdrawn' Teamster currently and my last job has been my only exposure to a union shop. Im sure they would like the business as well but not sure if thats the right one.

Any elmering on the ins and outs of unions and in particular, picking one for a newly minted shop would be greatly appreciated. I can tell some of you have been in the union game quite a while and I would certainly appreciate your expertise and personal feelings in this. My God, I am confused about which way to turn. Hourly #4 comes on tomorrow, so whadda ya think?

Thanks
The best one for the Bio diesel plant Is the United Assoscation of journymen and Apprentices of the plumbing and pipe fitting trades of US and Canada.

The UA built the Nations Largest Bio diesel plant in Aberdeen WA, everything there falls under the jurisdiction of the pipe trades. And were is the plant that you work at and I can help you with Organazation in the union.

[ke7imb]

Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Nov. 30 2007,06:31)]The problem with Unions is that they are communist organizations. The goal of unions is to destroy our foundations. How do they accomplish this ? By creating a middle class. It's starts with demands for higher wages, benefits, etc. Next thing you have is a strong middle class. Laborers and everyday common people are not meant to be rich and have luxuries. They are not capable of such provisions.

The middle class is the most destructive force that America (and the world) has ever had to deal with.
this comming from the biggiest lib democrat on qrz. talking out both sides of his mouth.

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (WF7A @ Dec. 01 2007,12:51)]When have you ever heard of electricians walking off the job?
Why, the very idea is shocking!

[kf6rdn]

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Dec. 01 2007,11:33)]Quote[/b] (WF7A @ Dec. 01 2007,12:51)]When have you ever heard of electricians walking off the job?
Why, the very idea is shocking!
I think they should have resistance to being inducted into this, perhaps Mho will keep them in line.

[kk7ue]

Thank you for your input. For starters, I have never been much of a union man in the past. My last job required union involvement so thats how I got started in it. This job leaves the choice up to us as hourlies whether we want it or not. Not meaning to put words in anyones mouth from around here, but the feeling is that if we dont 'union up', the longshoremen may make trouble since we do have a dock on a major body of water. Some of our product will go out on barges at some point when production gets up to speed so that is where this perception comes from. I could care less whether we are union or not and I would rather keep my wages thankyou http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Im told this company wants a union so the union can provide the healthcare. Im not sure why they want this except to not have to pay for it themselves. I didnt know unions had healthcare to provide. Im sure they are referring to the insurance #portion of healthcare. Still I dont see a need. My coworkers arent sure they want a union either so I wonder where that leaves the company. What looked like a dream job may be turning into a nightmare, from this standpoint anyway.

Again, thanks for your input. BTW, Im told unions are a democrat thing. Must be why I cant relate to them. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[WF7A]

Quote[/b] (kf6rdn @ Dec. 01 2007,04:59)]Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Dec. 01 2007,11:33)]Quote[/b] (WF7A @ Dec. 01 2007,12:51)]When have you ever heard of electricians walking off the job?
Why, the very idea is shocking!
I think they should have resistance to being inducted into this, perhaps Mho will keep them in line.
Ohm my goodness! As the Borg would say, "Resistance is futile." (They had little capacitance for compassion.)

('RDN, the "You are in a twisty maze of passageways, all alike..." quote--is that from Zork or Rogue?)

[K8MHZ]

Quote[/b] ]Ohm my goodness! As the Borg would say, "Resistance is futile." (They had little capacitance for compassion.)

Even if you were inducted into their group?

On Edit: I have to admit, I was reluctant to post that.

[kk7ue]

Update: We settled on UFCW as the union to represent us. Come to find out the employer gave us a raise to cover the dues cost and the union offers an excellent medical/dental/vision plan the employer also picks up the cost for. Sounds like a pretty good deal all the way around, and the dues are only slightly more than at my last job. And get this; the company puts 5% of our wages into a 401k from their pocket even without a match or contribution on our part! I plan on maxxing that out for sure. Now if I can get over my fear of heights and things that go boom http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Some of the structures are well over 300' tall. Cross that bridge when I get there.....

[kk7ue]

Again, thankyou for your input and opinions. Nice to hear this from you all. 73 and keep using ethanol - it will insure my livelyhood

[KI4PEQ]

Quote[/b] (ke7imb @ Dec. 01 2007,13:03)]Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Nov. 30 2007,06:31)]The problem with Unions is that they are communist organizations. The goal of unions is to destroy our foundations. How do they accomplish this ? By creating a middle class. It's starts with demands for higher wages, benefits, etc. Next thing you have is a strong middle class. Laborers and everyday common people are not meant to be rich and have luxuries. They are not capable of such provisions.

The middle class is the most destructive force that America (and the world) has ever had to deal with.
this comming from the biggiest lib democrat on qrz. talking out both sides of his mouth.
Ignore him. He's just been inhaling too much solder fumes again, thinking he'll get a cheap high. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (kk7ue @ Dec. 01 2007,13:28)]Thank you for your input. For starters, I have never been much of a union man in the past. My last job required union involvement so thats how I got started in it. This job leaves the choice up to us as hourlies whether we want it or not. Not meaning to put words in anyones mouth from around here, but the feeling is that if we dont 'union up', the longshoremen may make trouble since we do have a dock on a major body of water. Some of our product will go out on barges at some point when production gets up to speed so that is where this perception comes from. I could care less whether we are union or not and I would rather keep my wages thankyou http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Im told this company wants a union so the union can provide the healthcare. Im not sure why they want this except to not have to pay for it themselves. I didnt know unions had healthcare to provide. Im sure they are referring to the insurance portion of healthcare. Still I dont see a need. My coworkers arent sure they want a union either so I wonder where that leaves the company. What looked like a dream job may be turning into a nightmare, from this standpoint anyway.

Again, thanks for your input. BTW, Im told unions are a democrat thing. Must be why I cant relate to them. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
It sounds like a good deal for you. I was in a union for 4 years and eleven months 1976-1980 but then I took an educational leave of absence and never returned. Still, I owe my later income to the good head start I got from that union job. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif