The Occupational Licensing Racket - [Archive]

KG4JYD

11-30-2007, 02:53 AM

The Occupational Licensing Racket

"Do you want to be a fortune teller in Maryland? Your future better include a license from the state," warns a study from the libertarian Reason Foundation that examines the tyranny of state-mandated occupational licensing.

How about becoming a hair braider in Mississippi? You'll need 300 to 1,500hours of training -- and government permission.

Want to sell flowers in Louisiana? Sorry. Only licensed florists can do that.

Even moving furniture requires a license in almost every state in America.

Other fields restricted by some states include auctioneering, beekeeping, chimney sweeping, and -- yes -- interior decorating. And the list goes on and on.

The worst state for this nonsense is California, where fully 177 different jobs require a special license or credential.

But many states are almost as restrictive, and all are pretty awful.

Not so long ago in America, all you needed to go into business and earn a living for yourself and your family was the ability to do a job, the necessary tools, and good business sense. You certainly didn't need the consent of the government.

Today, however, in the alleged land of the free, over a thousand occupations -- making up an incredible 20 percent of the American workforce -- now require would-be practitioners to beg permission from the government, fork over expensive fees, sit through outrageously time-consuming and arbitrary training, and meet other unnecessary and tyrannical requirements so demanding they keep many qualified people from seeking to earn a living in their chosen fields.

Advocates of state licensing argue that it protects consumers from unscrupulous, incompetent, or dangerous practitioners.

However, that's just hogwash, says Reason.

In fact, numerous studies show these laws actually *reduce* consumer protection and public safety.

"Most of these licensing requirements are completely arbitrary," says Adam B. Summers, author of the report. "You see that clearly when examining neighboring states. California has 177 job categories licensed. But if you take one step across the state line into Arizona just 72 careers are licensed. In North Carolina you need a license to do 107 jobs. Next door in South Carolina, only 60 jobs require certification."

So what's behind the drive for licensing in so many fields?

"These laws are created under the guise of 'helping' consumers," Summers says. "In reality, the laws are helping existing businesses keep out competition, restricting consumer choice, destroying entrepreneurship, and driving up prices."

It's yet another example of how the government restricts opportunity, perpetuates poverty, squashes dreams, stifles innovation, and protects fat-cat established businesses from honest competition.

There's lots more on this in the Reason study and in the summary of the study, both of which can be found at the URL below.

The study and summary also do an excellent job of answering questions about how a free society would protect consumers from the dangers of ill-prepared practitioners -- without the tyranny and the inefficiency of occupational licensing.

(Source: Reason Foundation
Full study: http://www.reason.org/ps361.pdf
Summary: http://www.reason.org/ps361polsum.pdf )

KI4PEQ

11-30-2007, 03:06 AM

Luckily, my XYL's new venture does not require professional licensure. She is now a mobile pet groomer. She did go to school for it.

But doing things like writing her business plan, getting the applications for an SBA backed loan, getting her limited liability company started, obtaining permits from the U.S. DOT for the truck, business licenses from the state and county, sales and income tax numbers has been a chore. We've already spent over $2000 before she does one day's worth of business. If we'd had a lawyer do all of the paperwork at $500 an hour, we would have spent nearly $10,000, all to start a one person business.

If you want to mow grass for a living in this state, you now have to be professionally certified and licensed by the state. Go figure.

AE6IP

11-30-2007, 03:26 AM

You need to go find some new material to read.

Almost no occupational license in CA is difficult to obtain, except for those in fields where there's a significant risk to humans from incompetent practice.

Nor, despite the plausible sounding arguments, are the licenses that do exist a conspiracy between big business and big government here.

NC5P

11-30-2007, 03:43 AM

I USED to work as a broadcast engineer. Since I did wiring, repair, and maintenance of broadcast stations, I worked with all sorts of electrical equipment, including very high voltages up to 13kV. Seems the state sees that as a threat to the IBEW locals/contractors. I went round and round with them. I took the tests, getting 97% on one and 98% on the other. They flat out refused to let me have a license, saying I was incompetent. My station received a commendation from the FCC after an inspection. That was one where I totally re-did the facility. I really took pride in my work, going well beyond what the NEC requires.

I talked to the governor, who basically wanted the problem to go away. The state's chief electrical inspector finally told me I was breaking the law but they wouldn't "prosecute me". Well, my wife had enough, I started sending out resumes and landed a job out of state for fours subsequent years.

After returning, I see that the state now won't allow you to even take the exam until they've reviewed your work experience. They are very strict, not allowing related experience to count. They won't count anything more than ten years old. You can't work on ethernet, fiber, telephone, alarm, audio, video without their license. I've mostly stuck to desk jobs (they pay better, though I love working with my hands).

Count me as another malcontent on this issue.

KI4PEQ

11-30-2007, 04:31 AM

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Nov. 29 2007,21:26)]You need to go find some new material to read.

Almost no occupational license in CA is difficult to obtain, except for those in fields where there's a significant risk to humans from incompetent practice.

Nor, despite the plausible sounding arguments, are the licenses that do exist a conspiracy between big business and big government here.
California is #49 out of #50 in friendliness to small business. (http://money.cnn.com/2007/11/16/smbusiness/SBE_states_lists.fsb/index.htm)
Please tell us again how California is so good to small business entrepreneurs. Money Magazine seems to differ. Even with some of the regulated professions here in Florida, we still make the top 10.

Face it, business is leaving California in droves BECAUSE the state is business UNFRIENDLY. Even New York is better to business than the Golden State.

n2ize

11-30-2007, 04:39 AM

Quote[/b] (KI4PEQ @ Nov. 29 2007,21:31)]Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Nov. 29 2007,21:26)]You need to go find some new material to read.

Almost no occupational license in CA is difficult to obtain, except for those in fields where there's a significant risk to humans from incompetent practice.

Nor, despite the plausible sounding arguments, are the licenses that do exist a conspiracy between big business and big government here.
California is #49 out of #50 in friendliness to small business. (http://money.cnn.com/2007/11/16/smbusiness/SBE_states_lists.fsb/index.htm)
Please tell us again how California is so good to small business entrepreneurs. Money Magazine seems to differ. Even with some of the regulated professions here in Florida, we still make the top 10.

Face it, business is leaving California in droves BECAUSE the state is business UNFRIENDLY. Even New York is better to business than the Golden State.
That article is a load of crap. Yeah right, I'm gonna go and start a business in some hick town in Wyoming or South Dakota. Yeah right. Any business onwer interested in making money is going to jump at an opportunity to set up shop in NY, San Francisco, LA, Chicago, etc.

KG4JYD

11-30-2007, 04:47 AM

Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Nov. 29 2007,21:39)]Any business onwer interested in making money is going to jump at an opportunity to set up shop in NY, San Francisco, LA, Chicago, etc.
Have you ever owned or operated a business?

AE6IP

11-30-2007, 05:02 AM

Quote[/b] (KI4PEQ @ Nov. 29 2007,21:31)]Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Nov. 29 2007,21:26)]You need to go find some new material to read.

Almost no occupational license in CA is difficult to obtain, except for those in fields where there's a significant risk to humans from incompetent practice.

Nor, despite the plausible sounding arguments, are the licenses that do exist a conspiracy between big business and big government here.
California is #49 out of #50 in friendliness to small business. (http://money.cnn.com/2007/11/16/smbusiness/SBE_states_lists.fsb/index.htm)
Please tell us again how California is so good to small business entrepreneurs. Money Magazine seems to differ. Even with some of the regulated professions here in Florida, we still make the top 10.

Face it, business is leaving California in droves BECAUSE the state is business UNFRIENDLY. Even New York is better to business than the Golden State.
The article says we have high taxes and energy cost here.

It doesn't explain how that makes the state unfriendly to small business more than to big business.

Nor does it claim that our licensing structure has anything to do with big business being in cahoots with the government.

The actual report (http://www.sbsc.org/Media/pdf/SBSI_2007.pdf) makes it clear that they're not measuring how friendly a state is to small businesses at all.

But thanks for playing.

AE6IP

11-30-2007, 05:04 AM

Quote[/b] (KG4JYD @ Nov. 29 2007,21:47)]Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Nov. 29 2007,21:39)]Any business onwer interested in making money is going to jump at an opportunity to set up shop in NY, San Francisco, LA, Chicago, etc.
Have you ever owned or operated a business?
I have.

I do now.

The report doesn't measure what it claims it does and doesn't rank the states effectively.

There's a lot more to how well or poorly a state does for small business than just the handful of factors mentioned.

KG4JYD

11-30-2007, 05:34 AM

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Nov. 29 2007,22:02)]The article says we have high taxes and energy cost here.

It doesn't explain how that makes the state unfriendly to small business more than to big business.
Taxes: Raise the cost of doing business. Big business is better able to absorb these costs and is also able to have a staff of attorneys and accountants finding loopholes and lobbying for loopholes.

Energy: Again, raises the cost of doing business. Big business has the advantage to combat high energy costs by economies of scale and streamlining efficiency.

Why do you think prices at Wal-Mart are usually less than your local mom & pop store?

(and this goes for anywhere, not just Calif)

AE6IP

11-30-2007, 08:24 AM

Quote[/b] (KG4JYD @ Nov. 29 2007,22:34)]Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Nov. 29 2007,22:02)]The article says we have high taxes and energy cost here.

It doesn't explain how that makes the state unfriendly to small business more than to big business.
Taxes: Raise the cost of doing business. Big business is better able to absorb these costs and is also able to have a staff of attorneys and accountants finding loopholes and lobbying for loopholes.

Energy: Again, raises the cost of doing business. Big business has the advantage to combat high energy costs by economies of scale and streamlining efficiency.

Why do you think prices at Wal-Mart are usually less than your local mom & pop store?

(and this goes for anywhere, not just Calif)
The size of a business has very little to do with how well it can absorb higher costs. The gross margins of the industry are a better indicator than the business size and, for a lot of service industries, gross margins are better for smaller businesses than for larger.

With respect to energy costs, size is a two edged sword. Large businesses may have economies of scale, or they may be heavily invested in older technology and not able to capitalize on technology improvements, because they lack flexibility.

But, again, the study is flawed in that it only shows the government related costs of doing business in a state. It doesn't show whether those costs buy you anything.

California, for example, is the friendliest state in the union if you're a biotech startup, because of tax breaks, cheap loans, and state support for some research.

Plus, the California university system is an advantage to the biotech business, because of schools like UC Davis, that those higher taxes pay for.

Additionally, you gotta go where the customers are. Sure, I could run a software consulting firm much less expensively in one of the top 10 states. Of course, I'd have no customers that could bear the prices I can charge here. So going where that small tax benefit occurs might well cost a huge amount in lost revenue.

The report is terribly flawed.

n2ize

11-30-2007, 08:56 AM

n2ize

11-30-2007, 08:58 AM

n2ize

11-30-2007, 09:05 AM

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Nov. 30 2007,01:24)]
Quote[/b] ]
Additionally, you gotta go where the customers are. #Sure, I could run a software consulting firm much less expensively in one of the top 10 states. Of course, I'd have no customers that could bear the prices I can charge here. #So going where that small tax benefit occurs might well cost a huge amount in lost revenue.

Software consulting seems like one of the few types of business that can be run from almost anywhere. I knew a guy who did that sort of work from his beach house in Rhode Island in his swim trunks. ll he needed was an Internet connection. His clients were all over the world.

Quote[/b] ]
The report is terribly flawed.

This I most certainly agree.

KG4JYD

11-30-2007, 06:01 PM

Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Nov. 30 2007,01:58)]Because Wal Mart imports lots of cheap junk from China and because Wal Mart will pressure companies to build a product that they can sell at a lower price than their competitors. Not wanting a big seller like Wal mart to drop their line they comply.
Exactly. Small companies don't have this leverage and the factors above come into play also.

N2RJ

11-30-2007, 06:40 PM

Quote[/b] (KG4JYD @ Nov. 29 2007,23:47)]Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Nov. 29 2007,21:39)]Any business onwer interested in making money is going to jump at an opportunity to set up shop in NY, San Francisco, LA, Chicago, etc.
Have you ever owned or operated a business?
Yes.

And I live in the NYC metro area.

And I agree with John.

AE6IP

11-30-2007, 06:48 PM

Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Nov. 30 2007,02:05)]Software consulting seems like one of the few types of business that can be run from almost anywhere. I knew a guy who did that sort of work from his beach house in Rhode Island in his swim trunks. ll he needed was an Internet connection. His clients were all over the world.
It can be run from almost anywhere, but the cost is lower if you're close to your customers, and they're easier to come by.

I've known guys who've done it from Montana, even back in the '80s, but they spent half their life on airplanes, because high end customers need face time.

Plus customers tend to want a discount from contractors working out of lower cost-of-living areas. It's not at all surprising to see local people here billing 3 or 4 times per hour what remote contractors bill for similar work. We tend to use the local people for high profile, high pressure, short deadline stuff and the remote people for long lead time sustaining engineering.

There are exceptions, of course. It's possible to make a reputation in the valley, move to the boonies, and be in high demand.

I recently learned of another industry in which the internet has made it easy to work remotely, and it surprised me: studio musician. There's a growing cottage industry in guys who work with small bands to give them more professional sound for things like demos and they do it all over the net.

K5FH

11-30-2007, 10:35 PM

Quote[/b] (KG4JYD @ Nov. 29 2007,19:53)]Want to sell flowers in Louisiana? Sorry. Only licensed florists can do that.
In Louisiana, to become a licensed florist you have to go through a state-approved training course. These private courses are run by licensed florists. The so-called "examination" for the license is totally subjective and graded by the same people who run the floral licensing courses...many of whom are former members of the state florist licensing board.

Now, isn't that convenient? And, yes, everyone knows it's a scam. But, whenever a legislative effort is made to abolish the floral licensing system the argument against doing so is always, "Well, we can't get rid of the system now because it would be unfair to those already licensed."

Translation: our cronies are making too much money off the sytem to get rid of it.

Curiously, politicians can never seem to construct a logical argument for florist licensing. What public safety purpose is served by licensing flower arrangers? Politicians never answer this question; they always default to the "unfair to those already licensed" argument.

KG4JYD

11-30-2007, 10:44 PM

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Nov. 30 2007,11:48)]I recently learned of another industry in which the internet has made it easy to work remotely, and it surprised me: studio musician. There's a growing cottage industry in guys who work with small bands to give them more professional sound for things like demos and they do it all over the net.
I am an audio engineer and this is very true.

Due to the proliferation of Pro Tools (digital multi-track editing system) one can get a professional quality sound in their basement assuming they know what they are doing for way under $50k. This and the MP3 have changed the music industry forever.

Of course at 48K sample rate and a bit dept of 20, that puts the sound file size at 10MB/minute for a single track; uncompressed of course.

ae4tr

12-01-2007, 01:49 PM

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

#>>> So what's behind the drive for licensing in so many fields?<<<

#Money is the name of that game. #

# #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif # That's my opinion, which I am entitled to, and usually stuck with.

KI4PEQ

12-03-2007, 12:39 AM

Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Nov. 29 2007,22:39)]Quote[/b] (KI4PEQ @ Nov. 29 2007,21:31)]Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Nov. 29 2007,21:26)]You need to go find some new material to read.Almost no occupational license in CA is difficult to obtain, except for those in fields where there's a significant risk to humans from incompetent practice.Nor, despite the plausible sounding arguments, are the licenses that do exist a conspiracy between big business and big government here.California is #49 out of #50 in friendliness to small business. (http://money.cnn.com/2007/11/16/smbusiness/SBE_states_lists.fsb/index.htm)Please tell us again how California is so good to small business entrepreneurs. Money Magazine seems to differ. Even with some of the regulated professions here in Florida, we still make the top 10.Face it, business is leaving California in droves BECAUSE the state is business UNFRIENDLY. Even New York is better to business than the Golden State.That article is a load of crap. #Yeah right, I'm gonna go and start a business in some hick town in Wyoming or South Dakota. Yeah right. Any business onwer interested in making money is going to jump at an opportunity to set up shop in NY, San Francisco, LA, #Chicago, etc.
Boy, do we get testy when someone points out that California is NOT the land of milk and honey, or what?

But you left coasters seem to believe you are the judges of what is crap and what is not. You love it, you can have it. Personally, I like to keep the money I make and not send it to spendthrifts in Sacremento. But to each his own.

By the way, I won't be paying a state income tax this year, just like I have NEVER filed one while living in this state. Can you say the same about California? Nah, I knew you couldn't! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

al2i

12-03-2007, 12:44 AM

I love it when the little states argue. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Government (coercive) occupational licensing is indeed a blight upon the land, but non-coercive (voluntary) licensing is a wonderful thing that can protect worried consumers.

N4AUD

12-03-2007, 12:52 AM

A lot of these licenses are a way of collecting more money, but a lot are the result of the consumer protection movement, and there are a lot of professions that NEED licensing and oversight, particularly where shoddy work can endanger lives, or where a profession involving a lot of trust, like handling money or making loans. I don't understand licensing florists, but can see where electricians would need to prove their knowledge and abilities, or how we would want health professionals to be licensed. Depends on the profession.

AE6IP

12-03-2007, 02:47 AM

Quote[/b] (KI4PEQ @ Dec. 02 2007,17:39)]Boy, do we get testy when someone points out that California is NOT the land of milk and honey, or what?

But you left coasters seem to believe you are the judges of what is crap and what is not. You love it, you can have it. Personally, I like to keep the money I make and not send it to spendthrifts in Sacremento. But to each his own.

Actually, John's from the right coast, like yourself.

Quote[/b] ]By the way, I won't be paying a state income tax this year, just like I have NEVER filed one while living in this state. Can you say the same about California? Nah, I knew you couldn't! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I paid $300,000 for my house 15 years ago. A comparable house just sold in my neighborhood for slightly more than a million.

For that kind of appreciation on my investments, I'll put up with higher taxes, thanks.

n2ize

12-03-2007, 03:04 AM

Quote[/b] (KI4PEQ @ Dec. 02 2007,17:39)]Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Nov. 29 2007,22:39)]Quote[/b] (KI4PEQ @ Nov. 29 2007,21:31)]Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Nov. 29 2007,21:26)]You need to go find some new material to read.Almost no occupational license in CA is difficult to obtain, except for those in fields where there's a significant risk to humans from incompetent practice.Nor, despite the plausible sounding arguments, are the licenses that do exist a conspiracy between big business and big government here.California is #49 out of #50 in friendliness to small business. (http://money.cnn.com/2007/11/16/smbusiness/SBE_states_lists.fsb/index.htm)Please tell us again how California is so good to small business entrepreneurs. Money Magazine seems to differ. Even with some of the regulated professions here in Florida, we still make the top 10.Face it, business is leaving California in droves BECAUSE the state is business UNFRIENDLY. Even New York is better to business than the Golden State.That article is a load of crap. Yeah right, I'm gonna go and start a business in some hick town in Wyoming or South Dakota. Yeah right. Any business onwer interested in making money is going to jump at an opportunity to set up shop in NY, San Francisco, LA, Chicago, etc.
Boy, do we get testy when someone points out that California is NOT the land of milk and honey, or what?

But you left coasters seem to believe you are the judges of what is crap and what is not. You love it, you can have it. Personally, I like to keep the money I make and not send it to spendthrifts in Sacremento. But to each his own.

By the way, I won't be paying a state income tax this year, just like I have NEVER filed one while living in this state. Can you say the same about California? Nah, I knew you couldn't! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Whether or not you pay state income tax don't mean jack Jake. So what, if I have a good business that takes advantage of being in a populated metropolitan area why in tarnation would I want to close down and set up shop in a rural area ? If my property values are increasing and I have good resale value why do I care about the state income tax ?

n2ize

12-03-2007, 03:07 AM

In general I don't think that licenses should be required for all trades or professions. Namely, the cost of a license may discourage some people from breaking into a new business. Particularly in the case of a young person who may have a good talent or skill but not much capital to invest in starting out may wind up tossing up good opportunities to break into the business world.

n9yb

12-03-2007, 03:11 AM

In Indiana, if you are delinquent in child support payments, they will threaten to pull your state issued professional license.

It motivates many.

KG4JYD

12-03-2007, 04:03 AM

Quote[/b] (n4aud @ Dec. 02 2007,17:52)]A lot of these licenses are... the result of the consumer protection movement, and there are a lot of professions that NEED licensing and oversight, particularly where shoddy work can endanger lives, or where a profession involving a lot of trust, like handling money or making loans.
And you think the government can protect consumers better?

Because the government is doing such a great job in Iraq. And they did such a great job in New Orleans. And they do such a great job with education. And the government does such a great job in securing our liberties.

Riiiiight. Trusting or relying upon the government for much of anything is foolish. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

KG4JYD

12-03-2007, 04:04 AM

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Dec. 02 2007,19:47)]I paid $300,000 for my house 15 years ago. A comparable house just sold in my neighborhood for slightly more than a million.

For that kind of appreciation on my investments, I'll put up with higher taxes, thanks.
Yes, but your purchasing power with that money has diminished.

n2ize

12-03-2007, 04:48 AM

So lets see. At one time people burned to a crisp in dangerous sweatshops that were firetraps. Lets to itself the free market did nothing and more employees became injured or burned. Finally the government steppd in, via PUBLIC PRESSURE, and enacted safety regulations making many workplaces safer. As a result far fewer firetraps, and safer workplaces.

The government enacted various regulations concerning food safety requirements. As a result less deaths due to botulism and illnessdes due to various types of food poisioning. Additionally a faster response in dealing with these emergencies when and if they do occur.

Cleaner air and cleaner water in many regions thanks to government regulations., Left on their own the free market private property boys just weren't doing much.

Publics schools, libraries, wildlife refuges, etc. have worked out pretty well in the long run.

Quote[/b] ]
Riiiiight. Trusting or relying upon the government for much of anything is foolish. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

That's almost on a par with believing that the world is going to live in peace and harmony and everyone is going to love everyone else and we are all going to be a world of multicultural brothers and sisters and all that tender mushy stuff. Perhaps a nice idea to to strive for and perhaps attainable under the right circumstances but, highly improbable. Anyone who thinks there is a probability of such a utopia coming to be anytime soon and on a grand scale must have been living in a cave.

Speaking of living in a cave, have you ? There are some things the government does well and other things that can stand improvement or are best left outside of government. There are many things the government does that have benefited our society (that ugly word again). If you cannot understand this then I have to wnder about that "lived in a cave" possibility. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

AE6IP

12-03-2007, 07:27 AM

Quote[/b] (KG4JYD @ Dec. 02 2007,21:04)]Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Dec. 02 2007,19:47)]I paid $300,000 for my house 15 years ago. A comparable house just sold in my neighborhood for slightly more than a million.

For that kind of appreciation on my investments, I'll put up with higher taxes, thanks.
Yes, but your purchasing power with that money has diminished.
The dollar's fall has nothing to do with California's taxes.

Everyone in the US has seen their purchasing power diminish by the same percentage.

The problem with the simple minded view of taxes is that it only compares the downsides. To be accurate you have to account for both the cost of the taxes and what they accomplish. Ask the wine growers in Napa what they think of UC Davis.

California has its problems, but I'll take our economy over Florida's any day.

AE6IP

12-03-2007, 07:31 AM

Quote[/b] (KG4JYD @ Dec. 02 2007,21:03)]Quote[/b] (n4aud @ Dec. 02 2007,17:52)]A lot of these licenses are... the result of the consumer protection movement, and there are a lot of professions that NEED licensing and oversight, particularly where shoddy work can endanger lives, or where a profession involving a lot of trust, like handling money or making loans.
And you think the government can protect consumers better?

This is what history has shown. The market hurts consumers. The well run regulatory agencies help them.

Quote[/b] ]Because the government is doing such a great job in Iraq. And they did such a great job in New Orleans. And they do such a great job with education. And the government does such a great job in securing our liberties.

"The government" is a big organization. It does some things very well, like maintain the highway system, sometimes well, like the CDC and NIST, and somethings poorly, like your first two examples.

Quote[/b] ]Riiiiight. Trusting or relying upon the government for much of anything is foolish. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

There's a quaint phrase that describes your attitude: "throwing the baby out with the bath water."

W0UZR

12-03-2007, 07:58 AM

The gvmnt has it set up to have every single business licensed because,,, With every business comes a TAX ID number. The gvmnt wants it that way so they can make sure that they get your tax $$$. Every quarter of the year a 'business' total net income, they are suppose to send in the taxes for that amount.

N4AUD

12-03-2007, 03:00 PM

Quote[/b] (KG4JYD @ Dec. 03 2007,00:03)]Quote[/b] (n4aud @ Dec. 02 2007,17:52)]A lot of these licenses are... the result of the consumer protection movement, and there are a lot of professions that NEED licensing and oversight, particularly where shoddy work can endanger lives, or where a profession involving a lot of trust, like handling money or making loans.
And you think the government can protect consumers better?

Because the government is doing such a great job in Iraq. And they did such a great job in New Orleans. And they do such a great job with education. And the government does such a great job in securing our liberties.

Riiiiight. Trusting or relying upon the government for much of anything is foolish. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Let me get this straight- you think that doctors, for instance, shouldn't be licensed? That attorneys shouldn't be licensed?
That is truly foolish. You may want anarchy but I don't.

n7zsd

12-03-2007, 07:29 PM

Quote[/b] (KG4JYD @ Dec. 02 2007,21:03)]Quote[/b] (n4aud @ Dec. 02 2007,17:52)]A lot of these licenses are... the result of the consumer protection movement, and there are a lot of professions that NEED licensing and oversight, particularly where shoddy work can endanger lives, or where a profession involving a lot of trust, like handling money or making loans.
And you think the government can protect consumers better?

Because the government is doing such a great job in Iraq. And they did such a great job in New Orleans. And they do such a great job with education. And the government does such a great job in securing our liberties.

Riiiiight. Trusting or relying upon the government for much of anything is foolish. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
In some cases, yes the Government can protect the people better than an individual. I hold three occupational licences, water operator, wastewater operator, and HVAC journeyman licenses. Each of these licenses were obtained by months of studying, and a grueling test. There are several cases where unlicensed operators killed people due to negligence or pure stupidity. Holding a license does not guarantee one wont make a mistake, but it sure narrows the odds. The other part of these licenses is that you have to maintain a certain number of continuing education credits each year to keep them. Do you really want any old Joe Blow off the street maintaining your drinking water system, or wiring your house? I think not....

AB8RU

12-04-2007, 03:11 AM

Well the privatized industry for the Government was started a long time ago.

Today you have Certified Computer, Network & Degree Specialists.

You have Certifed Engineers and Radio & TV operators.

You have Certified Engineers for Civil, Electrical & Electronic, as well Mechanical.

Your AC Man & Auto Mechanic is generally Certified

Then there is ISCET Certified Electronics Technician

Certified Appliance Repair

iNarte for Interference Technology, and Electromagnetics.

Your Radio you operate is FCC Type Certified.

what else is New ?

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NC5P

12-04-2007, 03:36 AM

Quote[/b] ]Today you have Certified Computer, Network & Degree Specialists.

You have Certifed Engineers and Radio & TV operators.

You have Certified Engineers for Civil, Electrical & Electronic, as well Mechanical.

Your AC Man & Auto Mechanic is generally Certified

Then there is ISCET Certified Electronics Technician

Certified Appliance Repair

I have absolutely nothing against certification by trade organizations. This is a good thing and becomes a means for tradesmen to advance their skill and pay grade. It also is a guide to consumers to look for. My beef is the neanderthal state licensing acts that are 50+ years behind technology and discriminate against many of us. The various laws of each state also preclude universal acceptance of credentials. A certified IT tech should be able to install ethernet in all 50 states. Certified welders should be able to weld in Florida and Oregon. Likewise refrigeration techs who are certified should be able to work anywhere in the country. Local and state codes need to be learned but that doesn't take two years of apprenticeship! New Mexico must be the worst, at least it is in the SW region. Many young plumbers and electricians are going to Colorado.