Ladder Line

[aa5te]

Just wanted to say that I love ladder line.

I've used it for 20 years now on various antennas and it's great. I just rebuilt (and used EZNEC to partially redesign) my 6M super J-pole using ladder line as the phasing section/stub and the matching/feed section. EZNEC was pretty darn close on the SWR for the dimensions I provided it.

I also use it to feed my doublet, and I can't tell any difference when I get it near metal objects (even laying on them - but I do have it separated from nearby metal).

I've always used the Van Gorden 450 ohm black plastic windowed stuff.

That's about it. Just thought I would share my love of ladderline.

[W0BKR]

Quote[/b] (aa5te @ Nov. 05 2007,09:54)]Just wanted to say that I love ladder line.

I've used it for 20 years now on various antennas and it's great. I just rebuilt (and used EZNEC to partially redesign) my 6M super J-pole using ladder line as the phasing section/stub and the matching/feed section. EZNEC was pretty darn close on the SWR for the dimensions I provided it.

I also use it to feed my doublet, and I can't tell any difference when I get it near metal objects (even laying on them - but I do have it separated from nearby metal).

I've always used the Van Gorden 450 ohm black plastic windowed stuff.

That's about it. Just thought I would share my love of ladderline.
I too find it forgiving with SWR etc when loading for multi band operation. ONly gripe I have is I use a balun before it comes into the house and run coax the rest of the way. Sometimes, the ladder line snaps off the balun connector or at the center connector due to wind and erosion. Easily fixed, but don't always see it.

[N2RJ]

Ladder line (and window line and all its variants) is great. It is low loss and cheap. I always recommend it for wire antennas and use it where practical.

It needs a balun or a balanced line tuner and doesn't behave that well in wet weather, but I still like it.

All band doublets are pretty good but beware that if you're using say an 80m doublet on 20 you'll have some really sharp nulls.

[G0GQK]

Everybody in the whole wide world is smiling because you love ladder line.

G0GQK http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[NN4RH]

I've used it, too, but I have wondered about something:

According to this transmission line loss calculator http://www.ocarc.ca/coax.htm the unmatched loss with high SWR (which is often how ladder line is operated) can go up several dB if ladder line is wet.

[aa5te]

Quote[/b] (G0GQK @ Nov. 04 2007,18:58)]Everybody in the whole wide world is smiling because you love ladder line.

G0GQK http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I'm ecstatic....

[aa5te]

Quote[/b] (NN4RH @ Nov. 04 2007,20:04)]I've used it, too, but I have wondered about something:

According to this transmission line loss calculator http://www.ocarc.ca/coax.htm the unmatched loss with high SWR (which is often how ladder line is operated) can go up several dB if ladder line is wet.
The only time I've seen my ladder line act funny was when it was coated with ice. Normal or heavy rainstorms only seem to affect it by increasing SWR on the order of about 0.5 to 1 over normal. But I can surely see how it could.

[wa9cwx]

For the first 40 years (!) of my ham career I avoided ladder line, or open line, or ANYTHING but coax.
Like a lot of fellows who started in the 60s, I thought that was old school, surpased by coax, and no longer needed.

I also remember reading about how touchy it was, how sensitive to metal proximity, moisture, whatever.

Then, several years ago, I read Lew McCoys book, where he describes the basic ladder line dipole, and basicly says ignore all the 'rules' about ladder line, just put it up and try it.

That is just what I did, in fact, I had a 92 foot tower #installed JUST to put up a LOOONG dipole, (400') fed with ladder line.

Neat stuff. I took REASONABLE percautions.
It runs about 2 feet away from the tower, it is somewhat clear (but by no means completely) of the tree branches, it DOES pass near other coaxes where it comes in the house, but it quickly terminates at the tuner. Only about 3 feet is IN the house.

Love the stuff, and it gives me low frequency antenna coverage I never had before.

Long live Ladder Line !!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[KD4IFB]

Quote[/b] (wa9cwx @ Nov. 07 2007,21:37)]For the first 40 years (!) of my ham career I avoided ladder line, or open line, or ANYTHING but coax.
Like a lot of fellows who started in the 60s, I thought that was old school, surpased by coax, and no longer needed.

I also remember reading about how touchy it was, how sensitive to metal proximity, moisture, whatever.

Then, several years ago, I read Lew McCoys book, where he describes the basic ladder line dipole, and basicly says ignore all the 'rules' about ladder line, just put it up and try it.

That is just what I did, in fact, I had a 92 foot tower #installed JUST to put up a LOOONG dipole, (400') fed with ladder line.

Neat stuff. I took REASONABLE percautions.
It runs about 2 feet away from the tower, it is somewhat clear (but by no means completely) of the tree branches, it DOES pass near other coaxes where it comes in the house, but it quickly terminates at the tuner. Only about 3 feet is IN the house.

Love the stuff, and it gives me low frequency antenna coverage I never had before.

Long live Ladder Line !!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Just curious on this dipole...400'... What are you operating with that length of wire on a dipole, and at what wavelength is it???

[KC7YPJ]

Quote[/b] (KD4IFB @ Nov. 07 2007,21:45)]Just curious on this dipole...400'... What are you operating with that length of wire on a dipole, and at what wavelength is it???
your kidding right? balanced line (in any of it's incarnations) feed = wavelength of the antenna doesn't matter, 400' would be quite usefull on 160/80 and just about any other freq that your victi er target doesn't sit in a null

[N5FOG]

No argument here that ladder line is a great feed line. My only caveat with ladder line is lightning strikes and suppression.


FOG

[KC7YPJ]

sparkplug arrestors...

[vk4xjb]

Quote[/b] (NN4RH @ Nov. 06 2007,10:04)]I've used it, too, but I have wondered about something:

According to this transmission line loss calculator http://www.ocarc.ca/coax.htm the unmatched loss with high SWR (which is often how ladder line is operated) can go up several dB if ladder line is wet.
That is why I prefer proper ladder line instead to the window line you looked at. The closest on that web site is the 600 ohm open wire. My idea of the good stuff is 2mm diametre wire, 4" spacing and spacers every 2'. I don't notice any change wet or dry. Unlike ribbon and window line this stuff does not let dust and water build up between the wires changing the characteristics of the feed line.

Like others in this thread I think it is great.

[k0cmh]

Where did the term "window line" come from?

[KB7GL]

Hold a piece of 450 ohm line up to the light -- you'll be looking through the "windows". (Unlike 300 ohm TV lead-in, which is solid dialectric.)

It's sort of a misnomer, since most refer to it as ladder line.

-vic

[kr2d]

Quote[/b] (n5fog @ Nov. 08 2007,03:59)]No argument here that ladder line is a great feed line. My only caveat with ladder line is lightning strikes and suppression.


FOG
ICE makes supressors for ladder line, if you don't want to roll your own.

[n4bfd]

Ladder line is pretty much the best thing ever. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[n9yb]

I have it between the oak trees in the back yard.

Love it!

[wa9cwx]

IFB,
As YPJ said. this works well on 80 / 160.

There are probably some sharp lobes, with some nulls, on higher frequencies, but it is NOT in a perfect horizontal configuration, it raises and lowers on each side, making that hard to measure, and not worth worrying about.

In addition, on 20 and up, I use a quad, not this dipole.

In fact, I usually JUST use it for 160, and occasinally on 30, where it does a decent job.

Frank

[N4ZYV]

So where can I find windowed ladder line with stranded conductors?

[N5IFI]

It's the only way to go for me and it's easy to build too.

[K0RGR]

I never got used to boiling wood dowels in paraffin to make 600 ohm spreaders for my dad, but I did it a few times - whenever the 600 ohm line started looking shabby. Boiling paraffin is an explosion hazard, so don't try this at home!!!
You need to heat the paraffin in a 'double boiler' water bath.

One of the best 2 meter antennas I ever had was a pair of 4-element quads fed with 300 ohm TV ribbon cable. The 300 ohm ribbon was nearly lossless, and much less sensitive to nearby objects than I expected. I ran it up an unused fireplace chimney, and it worked fine. We built a balanced antenna tuner for 2 meters that worked well. I wish I could find it or the design for it - I wouldn't mind trying 300 ohm line on 2 meters again.

[AG3Y]

Quote[/b] (N4ZYV @ Nov. 27 2007,21:05)]So where can I find windowed ladder line with stranded conductors?
"RF Connection" in Rockville, MD has all of it you could want !

Probably many other sites, but since I am close to that place, that's where I get my antenna materials.

73, Jim

[al7n]

I've used open wire line spaced three or four inches (not critical) for all my HF antenna feedlines for many years.

If things change a bit when it gets wet or ice/snow/frost coated, just tweak the old antenna coupler a bit to compensate for it....No apparent problem with performance of the antennas.

[kc4ylv]

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Nov. 27 2007,11:42)]I wish I could find it or the design for it - I wouldn't mind trying 300 ohm line on 2 meters again.
No tuner needed - do a series section on each end

you can easily make a narrowband impedance transformer with nothing but some rg-8 and 300 ohm ladder line

http://www.seed-solutions.com/gregordy/Software/SMC.htm

for the utility - it's great. I use it to calculate series sections to match 100 ohm loops for vhf/uhf.

i bet you could do 200, 400 foot runs of good 300 ohm line very easily at 2 meters if you pay a little bit closer attention to spacing to foreign objects and metal.

[ka0gkt]

Gee, all of this ladder-line talk is making me positively giddy!

73 DE KAØGKT/7

--Steve

[KC9JIQ]

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Nov. 27 2007,17:42)]I never got used to boiling wood dowels in paraffin to make 600 ohm spreaders for my dad, but I did it a few times - whenever the 600 ohm line started looking shabby. Boiling paraffin is an explosion hazard, so don't try this at home!!!
You need to heat the paraffin in a 'double boiler' water bath.

One of the best 2 meter antennas I ever had was a pair of 4-element quads fed with 300 ohm TV ribbon cable. The 300 ohm ribbon was nearly lossless, and much less sensitive to nearby objects than I expected. I ran it up an unused fireplace chimney, and it worked fine. We built a balanced antenna tuner for 2 meters that worked well. I wish I could find it or the design for it - I wouldn't mind trying 300 ohm line on 2 meters again.
But as you go higher in frequency wouldn't your tuner losses increase?

I think they would, also if you can find the tuner plans, post it please.

I don't know if they even make a 2 meter tuner for Unbal to bal line. I know MFJ makes one, but is only for unbalanced line.

[K0RGR]

Quote[/b] (KC9JIQ @ Nov. 28 2007,15:34)]Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Nov. 27 2007,17:42)]I never got used to boiling wood dowels in paraffin to make 600 ohm spreaders for my dad, but I did it a few times - whenever the 600 ohm line started looking shabby. Boiling paraffin is an explosion hazard, so don't try this at home!!!
You need to heat the paraffin in a 'double boiler' water bath.

One of the best 2 meter antennas I ever had was a pair of 4-element quads fed with 300 ohm TV ribbon cable. The 300 ohm ribbon was nearly lossless, and much less sensitive to nearby objects than I expected. I ran it up an unused fireplace chimney, and it worked fine. We built a balanced antenna tuner for 2 meters that worked well. I wish I could find it or the design for it - I wouldn't mind trying 300 ohm line on 2 meters again.
But as you go higher in frequency wouldn't your tuner losses increase?

I think they would, also if you can find the tuner plans, post it please.

I don't know if they even make a 2 meter tuner for Unbal to bal line. I know MFJ makes one, but is only for unbalanced line.
I don't know that the losses would be significant in the tuner, but I don't have one to measure or any way to measure it.

My dad and I built the tuner in a box that previously held the tuning unit for a surplus ART-13 transmitter. I do remember that it employed a 'butterfly' capacitor, and I remember modifying one dad had in his junkbox to do the job. Beyond that, the memories from 40 years ago are dim. But those quads vastly outperformed the RG-8 fed 1/4 wave antenna I had mounted much higher - at 50 feet vs. 30 for the quads. So, I don't think the losses were significant.

I think I remember Dad drawing me a schematic of how to wire the tuner, and setting me loose, but I don't know how he came up with component values. I don't remember him getting out his trusty slide rule to do it, so I think he was working from a plan he'd seen.

The other thing I've always wanted to try was a 'single wire' feed system described in QST in the 1950's for UHF and above. On each end of the perfectly straight wire, there was a 'launcher' with a single wire conductor in the middle. As I recall, this provided something like a 50 ohm feed. But it was claimed that over the perfectly straight path of the feeder, it was virtually 'lossless'. That sounds like a great alternative to expensive hardline to me!

This method recently resurfaced as one of the alternatives to doing BPL. The launchers sit on the power lines, and transmit the BPL at microwave frequencies. This was a great one - no QRM to hams on HF!

I've never seen a commercial unbalanced tuner for VHF.

[N0WVA]

Quote[/b] (N4ZYV @ Nov. 27 2007,17:05)]So where can I find windowed ladder line with stranded conductors?
The Wireman.....

[kk7ue]

So is it like lots of other things in life.....bigger is better? Wire guage, that is.

This is an interesting topic to me since I want to put up 500' of wire somewhere between 20 and 30' off the ground, through some trees on two antenna legs, as soon as all the leaves drop off and I buy a few more hardware related items and the roll of wire and of course the ladder line. I planned on stranded wire, but wonder if the larger guages are worth the weight and expense. I was planning on using thhn 10 or 12 guage wire for the antenna element. Your thoughts folks? tnx es 73

[KB0LPI]

I have no complaints on my IC718/ AH-4 w/ 135' 450 Ohm LL fed Dipole. It's not much more than 15' off the ground, (cloud warmer) and I still got ZL6LH on the second call on 20m. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I like my ladder line. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[KC7YPJ]

Quote[/b] (kk7ue @ Nov. 28 2007,22:11)]So is it like lots of other things in life.....bigger is better? Wire guage, that is.

This is an interesting topic to me since I want to put up 500' of wire somewhere between 20 and 30' off the ground, through some trees on two antenna legs, as soon as all the leaves drop off and I buy a few more hardware related items and the roll of wire and of course the ladder line. I planned on stranded wire, but wonder if the larger guages are worth the weight and expense. I was planning on using thhn 10 or 12 guage wire for the antenna element. Your thoughts folks? # tnx es 73
12g thhn should be more than sufficient, buy 2 rolls, and a roll of 1/4" or 3/8" poly sprinkler tube for spreaders, 1 roll for your ant and the other one for whatever length of feedline you need up to 250', no point in buying ladder line unless you've got money to burn and/or are lazy, hb balance line is easy enough to build, just a little on the time consuming side

[wa4brl]

Quote[/b] (aa5te @ Nov. 05 2007,19:10)]I'm ecstatic....
Ground it when not in use -- that should improve your condition. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[W1GUH]

Wow! A thread "after me own heart."

I'll join the chorus. Ladder line is THE BEST! Try it...you'll never go back to coax, 'cept between the transmitter and coupler!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[N4AUD]

Quote[/b] (kk7ue @ Nov. 29 2007,01:11)]So is it like lots of other things in life.....bigger is better? Wire guage, that is.

This is an interesting topic to me since I want to put up 500' of wire somewhere between 20 and 30' off the ground, through some trees on two antenna legs, as soon as all the leaves drop off and I buy a few more hardware related items and the roll of wire and of course the ladder line. I planned on stranded wire, but wonder if the larger guages are worth the weight and expense. I was planning on using thhn 10 or 12 guage wire for the antenna element. Your thoughts folks? tnx es 73
I have up over 500 feet of insulated 12 gauge stranded wire, fed with homebrew ladder line. I have the antenna wire running through plastic pulleys, which makes it much easier to raise and lower. I don't know exactly how much wire I've got up since I removed an unmeasured amount to make it easier to tune on certain bands and that much wire is going to stretch some...but with a ladder line fed loop, the length isn't super important. I have no complaints with my antenna.

[wa9cwx]

I have 400 hundred feet of wire, fed in the center at about 90' with about 300' of 450 ohm ladder line.

For the 2/3rds of one leg that runs through a lot of trees, I used #12 plastic covered house wire, stripped from romax. That is soft copper. For the rest of the antenna, I used #12 bare copperweld.
It is supported at various places with simple pullies, on Dacron ropes. It can move through the various motions of the trees, etc, and not be 'pulled' or strained. It is supported by spring loaded Dacron, with what I call a mechanical 'Fuse'. A slightly weaker wire, so that should a serious strain result, it would have an easily accesable, pre-arranged 'breaking point'.

So far, in the wind, I have had TWO small diameter trees, and one HUGE, HEAVY branch fall on the 'forest' half.
Other than making the spring twice as long, NOTHING has broken... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Whole thing works good, no miracle antenna, but IS a good performer.

Frank

[KC9GUZ]

Quote[/b] (aa5te @ Nov. 05 2007,09:54)]Just wanted to say that I love ladder line.

I've used it for 20 years now on various antennas and it's great. I just rebuilt (and used EZNEC to partially redesign) my 6M super J-pole using ladder line as the phasing section/stub and the matching/feed section. EZNEC was pretty darn close on the SWR for the dimensions I provided it.

I also use it to feed my doublet, and I can't tell any difference when I get it near metal objects (even laying on them - but I do have it separated from nearby metal).

I've always used the Van Gorden 450 ohm black plastic windowed stuff.

That's about it. Just thought I would share my love of ladderline.
I like it too. Its great stuff. Just keep it away from metal and all is kosher.