View Full Version : Dx on 3790
kg4kww
11-03-2007, 04:57 AM
Just worked my first dx on 3790 and it was cool finally being able to operate in the Extra Portion of the band.
When PY7MV was calling CQ DX people were trying to out amp each other, I mean they were stepping on top of each other. It was as brutal as the CQ contest last weekend.
Wow!!
Guess I will have to get an amp if I'm going to work in the Extra portion.
N5FOG
11-03-2007, 05:02 AM
Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Nov. 01 2007,23:57)]Guess I will have to get an amp if I'm going to work in the Extra portion.
Yup better get amp that has a toob with handles if ya wanna compete with the big boys down there http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
FOG
kn4ds
11-03-2007, 05:15 AM
Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Nov. 03 2007,00:57)]Guess I will have to get an amp if I'm going to work in the Extra portion.
Well, you can get an amp... or you can learn technique, and deal with the fact that sometimes, just because you can hear them doesn't mean they can hear you.
Even with an amp, sometimes they won't hear you, even when you're hearing them 40 over...
The answer isn't always "more power" (with all due respect to Tim The Toolman)...
Propagation is a funny thing... you might hear a station running QRP and they're 20 over... and you key up with your 600 watts, or even 1500 watts... and they don't hear you...
A lot of that is the takeoff angle from your antenna... then there's D-layer absorption... is your signal even making it to the F2 layer? If it is, how much of it?
Do you have any clue what the radiation pattern of your antenna looks like? Are you familiar with the propagation characteristics of the various layers of the atmosphere?
It doesn't matter how much power you throw out there... if the propagation isn't there, you won't make the contact.
Sometimes, the answer is "I can't work this station right now"
You're an Extra now, right, Greg? How is that you have no clue about these things?
The station is question is in Brazil... I don't have an amp, and I have confirmation of Argentina in LoTW... on 75 meters. Proof that you don't need power... you need to pick your battles.
n4bfd
11-03-2007, 08:34 AM
Lay down some radials, and load this up to work dx on 80.... http://www.mfjenterprises.com/products.php?prodid=MFJ-1965
KC7YPJ
11-03-2007, 10:12 AM
or you could hit your local steel yard and pick up 1 each 20' 1/8"wall alluminum or steel pipe in 1-1/2" 1-1/4" 1" and a 3/8x24 nut to weld or otherwise secure to the top section for threading in a stainless whip, the pipe sleaves nicely, you can adjust it for length then drill through and run a cross bolt, pretty easy to adjust to resonant lengths then mark and drill, cheaper and beefier than a thinwall mast (properly guyed it will easily serve double duty as a permanent support pole for the end of a dipole)
Extras can work the whole band, but 3790 is actually in what we call the "Advanced" portion of the band. A General can't operate there, but Advanced and Extra ops can. The part of the band reserved exclusively for Extra class ops is 3.5~3.525 and 3.6~3.7 mHZ. What you encountered is called a "pile up." Everyone calls at once and the DX picks the strongest station.
http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/Hambands_color.pdf
KI4ITV
11-03-2007, 02:05 PM
Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Nov. 02 2007,16:57)]Just worked my first dx on 3790 and it was cool finally being able to operate in the Extra Portion of the band.
When PY7MV was calling CQ DX people were trying to out amp each other, I mean they were stepping on top of each other. It was as brutal as the CQ contest last weekend.
Wow!!
Guess I will have to get an amp if I'm going to work in the Extra portion.
Congratulations Greg! FB on the 80m dx.
But, If you worked the DX...why do you need an amp?
In a hurry?
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
kg4kww
11-03-2007, 03:26 PM
The amp I hope would allow me to compete with the big guns who step on everyone who's trying to be heard through the pile up.
kn4ds
11-03-2007, 03:29 PM
Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Nov. 03 2007,11:26)]The amp I hope would allow me to compete with the big guns who step on everyone who's trying to be heard through the pile up.
Not always.
KC9ECI
11-03-2007, 03:41 PM
I'd rather have a QRP rig with an excellent antenna set up, than a good antenna and an AMP. Not much point in transmitting further than you can listen.
kg4kww
11-03-2007, 03:42 PM
Key Word = I Hope
not, It Will
I know, that just because I can hear someone doesn't mean they can hear me. The only way you find out if they can hear you is to call them. Like Duhhhhhh
Oh yea, just because someone is an extra, that doesn't mean they walk on water or are some kind of god.
So, knock that chip off your shoulder right now.
And from 3700 to 3800 is both extra and advanced.
Gees, try to post something positive and the QRZ wackos come out swinging their bats.
Trey, thanks for the positive word on the contact and the question.
KC9ECI
11-03-2007, 03:50 PM
Greg-
Just because you don't like a response, doesn't make it invalid. I'd suggest that you take a good hard look at just who has the chip on the shoulder.
kn4ds
11-03-2007, 04:15 PM
Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Nov. 03 2007,11:42)]Oh yea, just because someone is an extra, that doesn't mean they walk on water or are some kind of god.
So, knock that chip off your shoulder right now.
You might want to think about who's got a chip...
Because someone's an Extra, I *do* expect that they know a little bit about signal propagation - geez, it's even material you should know as a General.
Antennas and propagation are king... an antenna with a poor radiation pattern will still be an antenna with a poor radiation pattern when you pump more power into it... if the takeoff angle is too high, you'll just be signaling aliens with more power.
But that's ok... go spend all you want/can on an amplifier, make all the power you can make then come back and whine some more when the truly big guns are still blowing you out of the water.
Because, after all, that's what it's about... it can't be about learning anything.
N5FOG
11-03-2007, 06:10 PM
Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Nov. 02 2007,10:42)]Key Word = I Hope
not, It Will
I know, that just because I can someone doesn't mean they can hear me. The only way you find out if they can hear you is to call them. Like Duhhhhhh
Oh yea, just because someone is an extra, that doesn't mean they walk on water or are some kind of god.
So, knock that chip off your shoulder right now.
And from 3700 to 3800 is both extra and advanced.
Gees, try to post something positive and the QRZ wackos come out swinging their bats.
Trey, thanks for the positive word on the contact and the question.
Greg the problem is you said the "a" word,,,, AMPLIFIER.
On QRZ thats a dirty word and use of it often results in a tongue lashing about improving your antenna and operator skill.
Greg if you can afford an amp go for it. A while back I got an AL-82 and have found it to be a great asset/tool to have in the ham shack.
You'll find that going from 100 watts to 500-700 helps a great deal for rag chewing on 75 and 40 in poor band conditions and it doesn't hurt in a pileup.
But on the flip side, as Dave said angle of radiation from your antenna has allot more effect on your ability to work DX than running an amp.
Thats why I have two HF antennas a verticle for DX mounted on my boat dock which has a VERY low angle of radiation thanks to the saltwater. And I have a 75/40 meter dipole for local and mid-range contacts because of the higher angle of radiation.
FOG
kg4kww
11-04-2007, 02:39 AM
Thanks FOG, I appreciate the kind words.
I will look into it in the future.
Maybe I do have a chip but it's just a little one.
kn4ds
11-04-2007, 03:00 AM
Greg, it's not that I have a problem with amps... sometimes, more power helps, without question.
But, like a lot of folks, I'd rather see you invest at least time in making antenna improvements, since that's where you'll see the most immediate benefit (believe it or not)
kg4kww
11-04-2007, 03:22 AM
Dave, I understand and agree with you. Good antenna system first.
BTW just worked TI8II on 3790. He's booming in and has one hell of a pile up.
An other night of 100W stations trying to call from down in the mud. 50% of them were operating out of band.
N5FOG
11-04-2007, 07:33 AM
Thats why I don't mess with pile-ups, it brings out the worst in people.
FOG
kg4kww
11-05-2007, 07:41 PM
Not me dude. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I bet you guys think that chasing DX is more important than sex.
kn4ds
11-05-2007, 07:45 PM
Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Nov. 05 2007,15:41)]Not me dude. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I bet you guys think that chasing DX is more important than sex.
For some, rare DX is more easily obtained.
Quote[/b] (KE4UWL @ Nov. 03 2007,11:15)]Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Nov. 03 2007,11:42)]Oh yea, just because someone is an extra, that doesn't mean they walk on water or are some kind of god.
So, knock that chip off your shoulder right now.
You might want to think about who's got a chip...
Because someone's an Extra, I *do* expect that they know a little bit about signal propagation - geez, it's even material you should know as a General.
Antennas and propagation are king... an antenna with a poor radiation pattern will still be an antenna with a poor radiation pattern when you pump more power into it... if the takeoff angle is too high, you'll just be signaling aliens with more power.
But that's ok... go spend all you want/can on an amplifier, make all the power you can make then come back and whine some more when the truly big guns are still blowing you out of the water.
Because, after all, that's what it's about... it can't be about learning anything.
Go easy on Greg. The less he knows, the more he will be at a disadvantage, and the more you'll be at an advantage to beat him in the pileups.
Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Nov. 03 2007,22:22)]Dave, I understand and agree with you. Good antenna system first.
BTW just worked TI8II on 3790. He's booming in and has one hell of a pile up.
Working TI8 is pretty easy. They're in Central America, not that far away.
The reason we say antenna first is because a better antenna allows you to hear better in addition to being able to put out more signal. Additionally, putting power into an inefficient antenna is really just wasting power.
If you have the land, try a 4 square for 80m. I am going to put up one in the springtime, but I know a few guys who run 4 squares and they work pretty well.
kg4kww
11-05-2007, 10:10 PM
Got a pic of one?
kg4kww
11-06-2007, 01:50 PM
remember, sex is more important than chasing dx.
Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Nov. 06 2007,06:50)]remember, sex is more important than chasing dx.
But when you get the DX station you want, you can turn the radio off and not deal with it for a while. The problem with sex is females don't have an off switch.
Seriously, your antenna is the most important part of your installation. Once that is the best you can muster, then adding more power will often help.
High power is not a disease. It is a tool that can be used or misused. So is QRP. I have been in QSO with a station who was so proud he was running 5 watts that he repeated it over and over...but when I told him I could barely hear him, do you think he would crank it up a bit? HE called ME not the other way around.
High power is not necessarily bad, nor is QRP always good.
Now I shall enjoy the warmth of the flames. It is cold up here. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
kn4ds
11-06-2007, 03:15 PM
Quote[/b] (kq9j @ Nov. 06 2007,11:13)]Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Nov. 06 2007,06:50)]remember, sex is more important than chasing dx.
But when you get the DX station you want, you can turn the radio off and not deal with it for a while. The problem with sex is females don't have an off switch.
Females absolutely do have off switches...
Things like "Hey, honey, those pants make your butt look big"
Tell 'er that, you'll have a LOT more trouble finding the "on" switch.
WA3KYY
11-06-2007, 03:29 PM
Greg,
If you are planning to use 80M a lot, you really need to consider having more than one antenna. You will need different antennas for different distances you are trying to communicate. For domestic contacts out to 500 miles or so, the antenna that works best is all but useless for getting to the west coast. What is good for the west coast is not so good for greater than 3000 mile DX contacts. And what is optimal for those distant DX contacts is pretty poor for closer in contacts.
If you want to learn about what really works well for DX contacts on 160-80-40, I highly recommend ON4UN's book "Low Band DXing". It has examples of all kinds of antennas for those bands including the 4-Square mentioned above. BTW, a 4-Square is four, 1/4 wave verticals fed in with different phasing lines with a control switch such that you can steer your major radiation lobe in four different directions. The width of the lobes is such that the four directions pretty much cover the full 360 degrees one segment at a time.
73,
Mike WA3KYY
kg4kww
11-07-2007, 09:08 PM
Thanks for the info. What do you all think of the ARRL Antenna Book?
kg4kww
11-07-2007, 09:12 PM
Yes, chicks do have an ON/OFF Switch
Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Nov. 07 2007,14:12)]Yes, chicks do have an ON/OFF Switch
ON - buy diamonds for her as a birthday gift;
OFF - buy a new vacuum cleaner for same...
Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Nov. 07 2007,14:08)]Thanks for the info. What do you all think of the ARRL Antenna Book?
Good publication to have.
Also look at their Antenna Compendium...
W4INF
11-07-2007, 10:55 PM
Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Nov. 06 2007,15:08)]Thanks for the info. What do you all think of the ARRL Antenna Book?
I think it sux, a waste of money... The DXZone has a LOT more resources on a LOT MORE antenna systems.
I have 2 ARRL antenna books. Outdated at best, not even a mention of an OCF dipole.
This is MY opinion, YMMV.
BTW, QRO is your friend... most of the time, but not all the time. I have a little 500w (600w, but the tubes are tired) amp and Ive learned that conditions can null your 500w and make you wonder why you spent the money. When the conditions are good, QRO works FB for that extra "umph". My experiences, in MY setup, 500w is 2 s-units higher than the same antenna, etc.. at 100w. I run a screwdriver atop a chain link fence for counterpoise... not the greatest antenna system, but not the worse either. Works ok for me and Im happy, thats all that matters in MY shack. :-)
I havent worked any 80m DX yet, but would like to. Congrats.
Good luck-
Andrew
kg4kww
11-09-2007, 09:15 PM
I was listening on 3792 last night around 10pm and there was some DX coming in and the oile up was monsterous. I'm these people were transmitting over top of each other, like dog eat dog. I tried several times but, it just wasn't my night to be heard through the pile up. So, try try agian.