View Full Version : New sign ordinance in my town
This should be interesting. There are a couple of places that have neon signs that emit some serious RFI. I have been thinking of talking to them.
The new sign ordinance prohibits any sign "which causes radio or television interference"
http://www.wantagetwp.com/municipal/2007/ordinances/Ordinance16_07.pdf
WB2WIK
11-01-2007, 09:13 PM
Go get 'em!
Neon signs are ugly and outdated anyway...
k4kyv
11-01-2007, 11:56 PM
Wonder if plasma screen TV's would qualify as a "sign"?
w8gtf
11-02-2007, 12:22 AM
Quote[/b] (k4kyv @ Nov. 01 2007,16:56)]Wonder if plasma screen TV's would qualify as a "sign"?
Do you have it in your window?
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Seriously, I wonder how long before this is legally challanged. Seems to me overly broad.
PA5COR
11-02-2007, 09:41 AM
No problem wit my new Plasma screen here?
Panasonic 42" viera TH-42PV7F.
Just bought it, used clamp on ferrite suppressors on all cables, cannot detect any problems on H.F.
Cor
Quote[/b] (PA5COR @ Nov. 02 2007,04:41)]No problem wit my new Plasma screen here?
Panasonic 42" viera TH-42PV7F.
Just bought it, used clamp on ferrite suppressors on all cables, cannot detect any problems on H.F.
Cor
Some of them we have here in the states will wipe all out DC-50MHz and beyond.
And no amount of ferrites seems to fix the problem.
Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ Nov. 01 2007,14:13)]Neon signs are ugly and outdated anyway...
As I sit in my beanbag chair, on my orange shag carpet, listening to Led Zepplin, I like looking at my Miller beer neon sign on the wall.
Tom ZD7X
Quote[/b] (ZD7X @ Nov. 02 2007,08:10)]Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ Nov. 01 2007,14:13)]Neon signs are ugly and outdated anyway...
As I sit in my beanbag chair, on my orange shag carpet, listening to Led Zepplin, I like looking at my Miller beer neon sign on the wall.
Tom ZD7X
Don't they have TV in Saint Helena?
Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Nov. 02 2007,06:28)]Quote[/b] (ZD7X @ Nov. 02 2007,08:10)]Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ Nov. 01 2007,14:13)]Neon signs are ugly and outdated anyway...
As I sit in my beanbag chair, on my orange shag carpet, listening to Led Zepplin, I like looking at my Miller beer neon sign on the wall.
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # Tom ZD7X
Don't they have TV in Saint Helena?
It was a joke........I HATE the 70's. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Yes, we have TV here. Only 3 channels though.
Tom ZD7X
KD6NIG
11-02-2007, 02:29 PM
Yeah, but the question is, is it retroactive?
Probably not, so the signs there already can stay. Just no NEW ones from here forward......
So just hope those old signs get replaced soon and then have to comply http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
kb2vxa
11-02-2007, 02:37 PM
"Yeah, but the question is, is it retroactive?"
You're probably right, I've yet to see any new ordinance or code which doesn't grandfather existing structures. As long as duct tape sticks it'll just keep buzzing away.
Signs signs everywhere there's signs
Blocking up the scenery breaking my mind
Do this don't do that can't you read the sign?
It's a proposed ordinance. I don't even think it has been voted on yet.
Retroactive? Maybe, maybe not.
Quote[/b] (ZD7X @ Nov. 02 2007,09:10)]Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ Nov. 01 2007,14:13)]Neon signs are ugly and outdated anyway...
As I sit in my beanbag chair, on my orange shag carpet, listening to Led Zepplin, I like looking at my Miller beer neon sign on the wall.
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # Tom ZD7X
Tastes great, or less filling?
Hey, when you get done reminiscing about the disco era (*shudder*), any chance of a sked on 30 or 17 meters this weekend?
Quote[/b] (KD6NIG @ Nov. 02 2007,10:29)]Yeah, but the question is, is it retroactive?
Probably not, so the signs there already can stay. #Just no NEW ones from here forward......
So just hope those old signs get replaced soon and then have to comply http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
The wording of the ordinance appears to indicate that existing non-conforming signs are effectively "grandfathered" unless they are altered. (Paragraph 13-17.11)
The prohibition is on Page 4 of the PDF file, by the way... Paragraph 13-17.4 Prohibitions, section M.
I wonder if the FCC would have a say in this, assuming that the signs in question would be covered under Part 15? I'm sure some lawyer will tell us sooner or later...
My goodness, though, they sure defined "signs" down to a science, didn't they? Reminds me of the old Landscape Committee that the Borough of State College (PA) used to have... consisted of retired Penn State professors with plenty of time on their hands. (When I was the assistant manager of the local Burger King down by Beaver Stadium, they wanted to fine the owner of the store for replacing DEAD trees without their prior authorization... even though these were replacements for trees accidentally killed by the ARCO station next door and the station was paying for them!)
73
The ordinance will be simply ruled unconsititional the first time they attempt to cite someone for 'radio and television' interference.
That is the sole area of jurisdiction of the FCC.
Same for any jurisdiction that attempts to control 'radio and television' interference from CBers or hams.
They do not have the authority to issue citations for 'violations'.
Note: CC&Rs are not included. If you sign a contract stating that you will not cause interference with your 'radio equipment' - that contract can be upheld - since you agrreed to that condition. If you move into the condo with that restriction, you are out of luck if they cite you for it and fine you in accordance with the CC&Rs.
Quote[/b] (n4cd @ Nov. 02 2007,09:06)]The ordinance will be simply ruled unconsititional the first time they attempt to cite someone for 'radio and television' interference.
That is the sole area of jurisdiction of the FCC.
Same for any jurisdiction that attempts to control 'radio and television' interference from CBers or hams.
They do not have the authority to issue citations for 'violations'.
http://www.flsenate.gov/cgi-bin....tml (http://www.flsenate.gov/cgi-bin/view_page.pl?Tab=session&Submenu=1&FT=D&File=sb2714e1.html&Directory=session/2004/Senate/bills/billtext/html/)
KB1KIX
11-03-2007, 03:09 AM
Man.... I've seen some nasty RFI from neon signs - very bad.
I had one not far from my last residence. Friend had a market downstairs - REALLY NOISY.
I was hearing this thing halfway up and down the aisle.
Good thing my lazy butt bought most my groceries from him, he didn't give me much of a hard time fixing it.
New power supply and it fixed most of the problem.
Jonathan
http://www.flsenate.gov/cgi-bin....tml
Joke? Any CBer can make a transmission legally (at 5w or less) with no FCC license.
Any of the UHF 'family radio' walkie-talkie operators can make a transmission legally without a radio license.
Any user of a cellphone can make a transmission legally without an FCC license.
Tell me, how many cellphone users in FL have a license? HOw many users of family radios have a license?
It's dead from day one.
The State of Florida cannot issue violations for 'lack of a radio license'. It does not have that authority.
Local communities CAN write an ordinance to control unlicensed services!!!!
They have had that power since the year 2000.
In my town…the city counsel wrote-up just such an ordinance. A local CBer has received three citations and has been to court once so far. The judge issued him a fine.
Below is a copy of the ARRL letter. (edited to contain only the cb part) which contains a link to the document.
***************
The ARRL Letter
Vol. 19, No. 46
December 1, 2000
==>PRESIDENT SIGNS CB ENFORCEMENT BILL
President Bill Clinton has signed legislation that permits the enforcement
of certain FCC Citizens Band regulations by state and local governments.
Amateur Radio operators are exempt from the provisions of the law, now PL
106-521.
Congressional lawmakers saw the measure as a way to give a voice to those
experiencing radio frequency interference resulting from illegal CB radio
operation. The FCC will not yield its authority to regulate Citizens Band or
other radio services, however.
In short, the measure authorizes states and localities to enact laws that
prohibit the use of unauthorized CB equipment--consistent with FCC
regulations. This would include the use of high-power linear amplifiers or
equipment that was not FCC-certificated.
FCC-licensed stations in any radio service--including the Amateur
Service--are excluded from such state or local enforcement, and state or
local laws enacted under this legislation must identify this exemption.
The bill--HR.2346 is the House version; it was S.2767 in the
Senate--actually is the old Senate "Feingold bill" from several sessions
ago. The bill's sponsor, Rep Vernon Ehlers of Michigan says local hams asked
him to support the bill because of the bad rap they were getting from
illegal CBers using high-power linear amplifiers that resulted in TV and
telephone interference while the CBers involved hid behind federal
preemption.
As did Feingold before him, Ehlers asked the ARRL to review his measure to
ensure that it would not unintentionally harm Amateur Radio.
A copy of the new legislation is available on the ARRL Web site at
http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2000/11/29/3/cbbill.html.
ka5piu
11-03-2007, 12:19 PM
Hello.
First off, there IS a license for the "Citizens Radio Service".
There is a license for the "Domestic Public" Cellular Telephone Service.
The CB license is held by the FCC.
The Cellular license is held by the carrier.
And, a little known fact, you do not own your cellular telephone.
Under federal (US) law, the Electronic Serial Number, and thus the title of the device, belongs to the carrier.
What if you buy a handset outright, you ask?
Some carriers will not activate a handset that is not in their database, so this is a non-issue, but, in order to activate service, you must agree to a contract, even if prepay, read it carefully.
In the case of GSM devices, that have an IMEI, the case still applies, but the law (US) applies more to the SIM card.
The entire reason that the SIM card is provided in the US on a card, and not as the little module, like any normal country, is that the law calls it a card, and the carriers want to conform to the letter of the law.
And, finally, yes, federal law was changed to allow enforcement of US federal law on the state level.
The states can enforce the US transportation code, as well as the communications act.
I, for one, see nothing wrong with this.
Quote[/b] (w3wn @ Nov. 02 2007,08:04)]Hey, when you get done reminiscing about the disco era (*shudder*), any chance of a sked on 30 or 17 meters this weekend?
No problem.
I do not have the Internet at my home yet, so I hope you see this post in time. It's Saturday afternoon here.
Seventeen meters works great into North America at around 1700 UTC. Lets try the freq of 17.050 at 1700 UTC tonight, Saturday.
Band has not been real good the past 3 -4 days in a row now, but I see no reason why we can't have a 5NN exchange. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Tom ZD7X
Sorry.........
My fingers are not doing what my mind wants them to do.
Freq of 18.050 at 1900 UTC..........Any other skeds with others in the future will be handled via email.
Tom ZD7X
WA2ZDY
11-03-2007, 11:42 PM
Quote[/b] (ZD7X @ Nov. 02 2007,09:31)]As I sit in my beanbag chair, on my orange shag carpet, listening to Led Zepplin, I like looking at my Miller beer neon sign on the wall.
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # Tom ZD7X
Don't they have TV in Saint Helena?[/quote]
It was a joke........I HATE the 70's.[/QUOTE]
Such blasphemy!
Viva Led Zeppelin - in concert 10 Dec 2007.
Quote[/b] (n4cd @ Nov. 02 2007,20:15)]Joke? Any CBer can make a transmission legally (at 5w or less) with no FCC license.
It's dead from day one.
The State of Florida cannot issue violations for 'lack of a radio license'. It does not have that authority.
No joke. Welcome to 2007. CB op exceeds 4 watts or otherwise strays from rules, cb op is considered unlicensed by FCC. Read late citations. Unlicensed is the exact verbiage used by Florida.
Quote[/b] (w3wn @ Nov. 02 2007,10:13)]My goodness, though, they sure defined "signs" down to a science, didn't they? Reminds me of the old Landscape Committee that the Borough of State College (PA) used to have... consisted of retired Penn State professors with plenty of time on their hands. (When I was the assistant manager of the local Burger King down by Beaver Stadium, they wanted to fine the owner of the store for replacing DEAD trees without their prior authorization... even though these were replacements for trees accidentally killed by the ARCO station next door and the station was paying for them!)
73
Part of the problem is the number of new businesses that have sprung up with some really LOUD signs. They are trying to control that.
Also, many people don't want our town to be littered with billboards.
I have a couple of signs that I need to put up - one warning trespassers about 24hr video surveillance (I'm putting in security cameras and uploading to a secure location) and another warning sign at the tower. I wonder if I'll need a permit?
Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Nov. 03 2007,18:12)]Also, many people don't want our town to be littered with billboards.
Towns are usually free to regulate placement of signs, provided they apply to everyone and every sign. They cannot single out one type of sign.
They can restrict flashing signs if they are traffic hazards - ie, distract drivers - if they are consistent everywhere.
They can restrict the hours that signs may be illuminated usually if abutted by neighborhoods.
I doubt whether any town could restrict signs because they make RF noise or might make noise. (usually a noisy sign has a problem).
Most towns have sign ordinances..requiring so much feet setback, limiting size of signs, number of signs on a property, etc. Heck, you go to California and you spend half your life trying to find businesses because they are using small signs and it is neraly impossible to see signs from more than 200 feet away. You have to know exactl where you are going. But all businesses in the same boat.
K7KBN
11-04-2007, 04:04 PM
I wonder how this will affect the Las Vegas "strip"... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
K8MHZ
11-04-2007, 04:07 PM
Quote[/b] (n4cd @ Nov. 02 2007,04:06)]The ordinance will be simply ruled unconsititional the first time they attempt to cite someone for 'radio and television' interference.
That is the sole area of jurisdiction of the FCC.
Same for any jurisdiction that attempts to control 'radio and television' interference from CBers or hams.
They do not have the authority to issue citations for 'violations'.
Note: CC&Rs are not included. If you sign a contract stating that you will not cause interference with your 'radio equipment' - that contract can be upheld - since you agrreed to that condition. If you move into the condo with that restriction, you are out of luck if they cite you for it and fine you in accordance with the CC&Rs.
It can be enforced under under the guise of disturbing the peace. Many disturbing the peace laws have provisions for peaceful enjoyment of legal hobbies and activities. In that respect the violation would not be under FCC jurisdiction.
ab8yy
11-04-2007, 11:25 PM
Quote[/b] (ka5piu @ Nov. 03 2007,01:19)]Hello.
First off, there IS a license for the "Citizens Radio Service".
There is a license for the "Domestic Public" Cellular Telephone Service.
The CB license is held by the FCC.
The Cellular license is held by the carrier.
And, a little known fact, you do not own your cellular telephone.
Under federal (US) law, the Electronic Serial Number, and thus the title of the device, belongs to the carrier.
What if you buy a handset outright, you ask?
Some carriers will not activate a handset that is not in their database, so this is a non-issue, but, in order to activate service, you must agree to a contract, even if prepay, read it carefully.
In the case of GSM devices, that have an IMEI, the case still applies, but the law (US) applies more to the SIM card.
The entire reason that the SIM card is provided in the US on a card, and not as the little module, like any normal country, is that the law calls it a card, and the carriers want to conform to the letter of the law.
And, finally, yes, federal law was changed to allow enforcement of US federal law on the state level.
The states can enforce the US transportation code, as well as the communications act.
I, for one, see nothing wrong with this.
More from PIU.
There is NO license for CB radio - period. The FCC doesn't have one and they don't issue one to anyone.
As for the Cell phones. The phones themselves are under the carrier's license. yes, the carrier has a license. The ID's are done as is required for ham radio - in the same mode it is transmitting in - usually digital.
If you purchase a phone - you own the phone. they do not take it back when your contract is expired nor do they ask for it back when you change services. I have taken cell phones from one service to another without any problems.
The requirement is that that phone operates in a mode that the new carrier supports. Most support all three modes now so this isn't aproblem either.
If the cell company owned the phone - or the sim card, they would require you return it when you are finished with the phone. They do not.
Steve
KI4PEQ
11-06-2007, 03:42 AM
The wife and I are going into business together. She's got the actual job skill in demand here. She will bring a mobile dog grooming shop to your door and groom your pooch while you wait. I'll just run the home office and keep the books.
Having to get the appropriate approvals for a business license, I found I had to get a 'home occupations' permit in order to run the back end of the business from the house. There were a number of restrictions put on the home occupation use. Among them "No equipment or process shall be used which creates visual and/or audible interference in any radio or television receiver, our causes fluctuations in the line voltage off the premises of the dwelling unit" The shack is located (where else) in my new home office.
So much for putting up that big ole lineyar to push out them pounds on the cokes! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif