The gap is identified

[k0cmh]

All the flaming, name calling ect. between this group and that group, and I though of something.

I appears to me the big gap is the difference between "operators" and "tinkerers".

"Operators" want to talk to other people. Talking by radio is "neat and cool". Their primary interest is making the contacts and doing so by radio.

I know people who are excellent operators, who work top-notch equipment, but the love for them is the contacts. About the only thing they have made is a dipole or a j-pole. They buy their equipment and are proude of their stations.

Tinkerers want to make things, make store-bought things cheaper that work better, try out new ideas, get satisifcation of having something that works that they made with their own hands.

I know people that always have something "on the bench" and basically operate the equipment to "smoke test" it or to see how well it works. They could care less who they talk with or what they talk about, as long as they get their reports.

My opinion is that Ham radio encompasses both. There is a place for both.

Now, how can we get the two to get along?

[ky5u]

Yes there is a place for both. The problem is that the "operators" want to change AR so the "tinkerers" don't even recognize it.

[kl7aj]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Nov. 01 2007,11:31)]Yes there is a place for both. #The problem is that the "operators" want to change AR so the "tinkerers" don't even recognize it.
Which is why they should REALLY TRULY change the name of the Technician class license to something less...uh....technical.

What's wrong with Novice?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[KA4DPO]

I'm not sure I can totally agree with that although you have a point. I use state of the art radio equipment in my shack and rely on it for daily use. I also have been what you call a tinkerer all my life. I have always found the science of radio fascinating and have always experimented with different aspects of it. My opinion ( and we all know what those are worth) is that all hams should attempt to learn the basic science of radio. It simply makes you a better operator, no one can argue with that.

[ai4ep]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif yeah ---what he just said !! :rock:

[WW3QB]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Nov. 01 2007,11:31)]Yes there is a place for both. #The problem is that the "operators" want to change AR so the "tinkerers" don't even recognize it.
I wouldn't go that far. The operators are indifferent to the tinkerers. The hobby changes when the operators simply outnumber the tinkerers.

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (ww3qb @ Nov. 01 2007,13:04)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Nov. 01 2007,11:31)]Yes there is a place for both. The problem is that the "operators" want to change AR so the "tinkerers" don't even recognize it.
I wouldn't go that far. The operators are indifferent to the tinkerers. The hobby changes when the operators simply outnumber the tinkerers.
That you're indifferent doesn't excuse you from anything. In fact indifference is the mark of the truly self centered. I am actually supprised you'd admit to not caring if someone's presence in AR hurt the hobby or not.

[N2RJ]

I've identified several types of hams:

Tinkerers
Operators (talkers)
Telegraphers (CW aficionados)
Emcomm hams
Utility hams (WinLink users among others)
Digital comms aficionados
Repeater hams
Contesters
DXers

I don't think there are just two broad categories.

[WB2WIK]

I think there are many more categories, too.

I'm not a tinkerer at all, but I homebrew lots of stuff. At one time years ago, my entire station was homebrew except for my receiver. My first (Novice) station as a kid was entirely homebrew except for my receiver. I guess I just never felt homebrewing a receiver was a good return on investment.

Even today, of the five amplifiers in my shack, four are homebrew (legal limit) and one is commercial. I don't view homebrewing as "tinkering;" it's more like getting a job done to fill a need.

I don't tinker with antennas. I install them and then leave them there for years. But when I have a chance, I always install more of them.

It's all done with one goal, and that is to make the operating experience more enjoyable, so I guess I'm really just an operator! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

WB2WIK/6

[WW3QB]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Nov. 01 2007,13:25)]Quote[/b] (ww3qb @ Nov. 01 2007,13:04)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Nov. 01 2007,11:31)]Yes there is a place for both. #The problem is that the "operators" want to change AR so the "tinkerers" don't even recognize it.
I wouldn't go that far. The operators are indifferent to the tinkerers. The hobby changes when the operators simply outnumber the tinkerers.
That you're indifferent doesn't excuse you from anything. #In fact indifference is the mark of the truly self centered. #I am actually supprised you'd admit to not caring if someone's presence in AR hurt the hobby or not.
Who said I was indifferent? Who said I was an operator? I still keep my boat anchors on the air. My rigs still glow. I have some soldering pencil burn scars on my hands from making repairs.

But I am also not the AR gatekeeper. I cannot and will not tell others they are not worthy of being a ham. That seems to be your job.

We have (appliance) operators because we have AR appliances. Should we ban YeaKenComs? Who has built their own rig (the Elecraft kits count)? Or at least made a major repair? Refurbished a boat anchor?

[WA7KKP]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Nov. 01 2007,11:31)]Yes there is a place for both. #The problem is that the "operators" want to change AR so the "tinkerers" don't even recognize it.
Let the operators do their contests, etc . . . .

Let the tinkerers dabble and LEARN the science of electronics, and let them develop things like SSB, radio astronomy, etc.

I just hate those people in the operator category who think there is NO challenge in the tinkering end. Hey, they can buy anything they want at AES, HRO, Burghardt, or any of the other candy stores. They help perpetuate the image of ham radio as being "expensive". It is when you pay retail.

From tinkering comes new designs, and the person may actually LEARN something new in the process, if not something new to himself.

I've been tinkering for almost 40 years now, and it is still a challenge . . . after all anyone with enough MONEY and toys (top of the line xcvr, beams, tower) can do DXCC, but that's all been done before. How about handicapping oneself, doing DXCC on Amtor? PSK31? 6 meters? Now there's a challenge.

Gary WA7KKP

[KC7UP]

I guess I am both. I operate my radios but must tinker to keep both of my 25yr tcvrs operating at the level I desire.
Curt

[kn4ds]

What about those of us who get a kick out of operating in contests, but tinker around with different antennas and repair our own rigs, restoring old boat anchors?

Some of us enjoy operating, but we enjoy the science behind the operation, as well.

I *like* being able to restore boat anchors and then operating with them, working various folks in different parts of the world. I'm finding I enjoy contesting, and I enjoy ragchewing, too.

I guess I fall in both categories... operator... and tinkerer.

[WW3QB]

The 74th ARRL Sweepstakes contest will take place this month, so I guess by the new definitions, they were "operators" in 1933. This thread is about to get ugly by pigeon holing hams.

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (ww3qb @ Nov. 01 2007,13:49)]But I am also not the AR gatekeeper. I cannot and will not tell others they are not worthy of being a ham. That seems to be your job.
You're the one pushing indifference as a possible excuse. Any my "job" is simply to challenge us all to examine our effect on AR. Hopefully if you or I or anyone was doing something on the air or in person with other amateurs to hurt the hobby, we'd not be self centered enough to indifferent about it. The "you" in my reply (except the last sentence) was all amateurs, not you individually. No need to go off the deep end.

I don't suggest banning anyone. I suggest we all look at AR and make it a goal to do no harm.

[VO1GXG]

Quote[/b] (KA4DPO @ Nov. 01 2007,08:42)]I'm not sure I can totally agree with that although you have a point. I use state of the art radio equipment in my shack and rely on it for daily use. I also have been what you call a tinkerer all my life. I have always found the science of radio fascinating and have always experimented with different aspects of it. My opinion ( and we all know what those are worth) is that all hams should attempt to learn the basic science of radio. It simply makes you a better operator, no one can argue with that.
Agreed 150% , Heck i too the time and did it! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[K7JBQ]

There are two types of people in this world:

Those that divide people into groups, and those that don't.

73,
Bill

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (ww3qb @ Nov. 01 2007,15:49)]Who has built their own rig (the Elecraft kits count)? Or at least made a major repair? Refurbished a boat anchor?
I have done all of the above and many other hams have.

I think that appliance operation is great, but it disgusts me when an extra class licensee doesn't even know ohms law.

[k0cmh]

An interesting range of replies here. #So far, not really nasty.

I think I am more in the "tinkerer" category than the "operator" category. #My main interest is in making things and then having them work when I make contacts. #Although not black and white as I originally made the post, I enjoy the contacts and am more a ragchewer, but I LOVE it when I am doing that with a new antenna I just built and installed, or on psk with a new interface I designed and assembled, or using the portable mast I devised from a Walmart swimming pool skimmer that gets my 2 meter signal over a ridge that was interferring with my emcomm communications, etc.

To me, that is Ham Heaven.

If Tinkerer is black and Operator is white, I would say I am a farily dark gray.

[AA0CX]

Did someone mention us vintage freaks? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[K6UEY]

I think we already have a division of groups,that is part of the problem. We are trying to pretend that both groups are the same ,they are NOT!!

We have one group who come from the old school who came into Amateur Radio because they wanted to learn and utilize the benefits of Amateur Radio.Then we have the other group who have time on their hands and want to Socialize and shoot skip.

Because they were granted a license we try to say they are but one of the same,THEY ARE NOT.We already have a non-Technical service to shoot skip, socialize #and ignore the rules ,we need to stop trying to put them all in the same basket.

[KI4WCA]

Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ Nov. 01 2007,11:42)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Nov. 01 2007,11:31)]Yes there is a place for both. The problem is that the "operators" want to change AR so the "tinkerers" don't even recognize it.
Which is why they should REALLY TRULY change the name of the Technician class license to something less...uh....technical.

What's wrong with Novice?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
Tech used to be the same written as general.The name remains the same.The expertise to pass the current test is not.

[va7aax]

i have to say i am a tinkerer. A typical ham should have both the quailities of a tinkerer and a operator.

[KA4DPO]

Quote[/b] (ww3qb @ Nov. 01 2007,15:04)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Nov. 01 2007,11:31)]Yes there is a place for both. #The problem is that the "operators" want to change AR so the "tinkerers" don't even recognize it.
I wouldn't go that far. The operators are indifferent to the tinkerers. The hobby changes when the operators simply outnumber the tinkerers.

I think at the point where tinkering, experimenting is no longer practiced it ceases being a hobby. I don't call using a cell phone a hobby but that's what you will have.

[K0RGR]

Oh my God! How many of these threads do we have to suffer through, trying to define what a "real ham" is?

Tinkerer, Stinkerer, Operator, Snoterator... can't we all just get along?

Most of the people on here are Internet hams. That's a whole different category or two.

My dad was a tinkerer. I don't have the time or patience for it, but I do love to build things. The last rig I seriously modified was an IC-725. It was either rebuild the receiver front end and AGC, or shoot the dang thing! But I was following someone else's directions, and that was when I discovered that I can no longer see this tiny jewelry. I bought a dissecting microscope to help finish the job!

I play with antennas, and I don't always follow "the rules". Sometimes, the results are pleasantly surprising. Sometimes, they are not. When I get my next car, I have some killer ideas for mobile antennas that won't fit what I drive now.

[k4kyv]

Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ Nov. 01 2007,18:42)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Nov. 01 2007,11:31)]Yes there is a place for both. The problem is that the "operators" want to change AR so the "tinkerers" don't even recognize it.
Which is why they should REALLY TRULY change the name of the Technician class license to something less...uh....technical.

What's wrong with Novice?
"Communicator Class" would be more appropriate.

[WA6MHZ]

I am definitely a Tinkerer. About the only operating I do is the VHF contests, because I bought a QTH that is at 1650 ft above the average terrain and I LIVE for VHF/UHF DX!! But there are always these guys who go up to 6000 ft mountaintops who blow me away, so atleast I give it a good try. It is neat to be able to work mobiles in LA and North simplex! Worked a Santa Barbara station on 432 too! But most of the time, I tinker, and restore boatanchors. In fact, it has become a disease! THOUSANDS of boatanchors! Why do I need 25 Heathkit Twoers? Because I do. As I said, its a disease and I am getting worse! But there is a great satisfaction and comfort in repairing things. It is creativity and I think of it as being a Doctor of Radios. Many local hams come to me to fix their stuff, and I usually do. Except once. I will never live that one down. A wonderful Ham had me fix his Icom IC-740, and I found a shorted diode in the filter section. All fixed!!! But as I put it back together, I FORGOT the AC power plug was still live and the AC shorted to the chassis!!! BLAMM!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh, there were a FEW good parts in it left, and over the course of several years I have most of it working, redesigning circuits to replace unobtainable parts. But I am stalled at the Final output stage. Need to find an EBAY relic to salvage that from. So far, all those rat bastards out there way outbid me and the radio still sits. He will get it back, SOMEDAY!!! But we are going on 3 years now!!! Think he would like it back someday!

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (k0cmh @ Nov. 01 2007,11:27)]All the flaming, name calling ect. between this group and that group, and I though of something.

I appears to me the big gap is the difference between "operators" and "tinkerers".

"Operators" want to talk to other people. Talking by radio is "neat and cool". Their primary interest is making the contacts and doing so by radio.

I know people who are excellent operators, who work top-notch equipment, but the love for them is the contacts. About the only thing they have made is a dipole or a j-pole. They buy their equipment and are proude of their stations.

Tinkerers want to make things, make store-bought things cheaper that work better, try out new ideas, get satisifcation of having something that works that they made with their own hands.

I know people that always have something "on the bench" and basically operate the equipment to "smoke test" it or to see how well it works. They could care less who they talk with or what they talk about, as long as they get their reports.

My opinion is that Ham radio encompasses both. There is a place for both.

Now, how can we get the two to get along?
You seem to have the false impression that some of us can't be or do BOTH.
Tinkering does not preclude operating; nor does operating eliminate the possibility of tinkering.

Some of the most famous and successful Amateurs have indeed been both.

Don't make matters worse by starting a TR*** thread to create even more hard feelings, and even more heated arguments.

[kn4ds]

Then there are those who help others by passing on knowledge...

One of the local guys, just licensed, picked up a hollow state rig, older model than one I have, and he had questions about it... so he dropped by here one day and we went through tuning it up.

We talked about antennas and how he's in a situation where he will almost certainly have to go attic mounted (CC&Rs... not complaining about them, working within them)... I showed him my little 40 meter dipole that, so far, has worked half the world... (still no Asia or Oceana... I'll get there)...

There's soooo much I don't know, and some of his questions I couldn't answer... but what I do know, I'm happy to share with him.

So, I operate... I tinker... I elmer when I can...

I think that makes me a ham. No categorization needed.

Others do what they do... I think it makes 'em hams.

[K5UOS]

I like to design and build more than operate. But without operating there is little reward for a successful design. The two are essentially inseparable to a balanced approach to the hobby.

I personally enjoy the challenges of building receivers. Sometimes I build a receiver and consider it finished. Other times, I tinker with some particular aspect for no better reason than to learn. I did considerable rebuild and tinkering with both crystal and passive audio filters in my last 4 receivers.

Reading is critical to learning theory but nothing surpasses the lessons learned on the workbench or from fellow tinkerers.

I can only imagine how exciting homebrewing and tinkering was in the early days of radio. It must have been magical.

K5UOS

[W5HTW]

Quote[/b] (KI4WCA @ Nov. 01 2007,15:14)]Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ Nov. 01 2007,11:42)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Nov. 01 2007,11:31)]Yes there is a place for both. The problem is that the "operators" want to change AR so the "tinkerers" don't even recognize it.
Which is why they should REALLY TRULY change the name of the Technician class license to something less...uh....technical.

What's wrong with Novice?

??? ??? ??? ???
Tech used to be the same written as general.The name remains the same.The expertise to pass the current test is not.
When the serious push for a no code ham license began, in the early 1960s, the request was for a Communicator Class of license. That has arisen repeatedly, and for all those who just grab the PTT switch and open mouth, maybe that is the name that should be assigned. The "Technician" license is, with few exceptions, NON-technical. I would happily go alongwith a renaming of a non-technical license into something that doesn't even hint that the licensee is actually a technical type.

Ed

[ka0gkt]

My XYL says that I must be a tinkerer. She says that I stopped being an operator the day I slid that ring on her finger and said "I DO", and if she ever hears that I've become an operator again, I can say goodbye to certain portions of my anatomy of which I've become quite fond.

73 DE KAØGKT/7

--Steve

[ab1ga]

Quote[/b] (k0cmh @ Nov. 01 2007,13:27)]All the flaming, name calling ect. between this group and that group, and I though of something.
We all belong to the same group, that of flaming, name calling ects. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Seriously, the problem isn't that we have people who like to operate more than they like to build, or that we have too many builders, emcomm types, or whatever; what we have is the pandemic belief that you can only be one thing, that this precludes any other thing, and that all other things are harmful, obsolete, irrelevant, illegal, and who knows what else.

Some of us need to realize that it's okay if some hams have more interest in operating than the technical aspects of the hobby, and that this will not destroy ham radio; others need to wake up to the fact that this is a hobby with deep technical threads woven into its cloth, and that this knowledge is rewarding and accessible to everyone, and that glaring ignorance of the fundamentals is not something to be proud of.

And everyone needs to realize that the sniping, biting, barking and snarling that goes on here is not in any way in the amateur spirit. Sure, what happens on the Net isn't what happens on the air, but just what does that mean? Does it mean that we're really all nice but we put on a nasty persona when we're here? What the hell for? Or do we hide our true selves when we go on the air, hiding behind a mask of civility? Are we all a bunch of fakers?

Sorry about the drift, but AG4YO's thread about the OT started me thinking and it's been nagging me...

[K4KWH]

Quote[/b] (KA4DPO @ Nov. 01 2007,11:42)]I'm not sure I can totally agree with that although you have a point. #I use state of the art radio equipment in my shack and rely on it for daily use. #I also have been what you call a tinkerer all my life. #I have always found the science of radio fascinating and have always experimented with different aspects of it. #My opinion ( and we all know what those are worth) is that all hams should attempt to learn the basic science of radio. #It simply makes you a better operator, no one can argue with that.
AH! #But it is sometimes the "operators" that have to come to the "tinkerers" to get their stuff to work. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif


73

[WA9SVD]

[
AH! But it is sometimes the "operators" that have to come to the "tinkerers" to get their stuff to work. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif


73[/quote]
Very true, indeed.



Then again, my parents taught me never to tinker in public... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[K7JEM]

The false assumption is that a ham can only be one thing.

Ryan has is right. There are multiple forms of being a ham.

About 4 days a year, I am a contester, but not at all the rest of the time. Several days, I am a repeater engineer or maintainer. Other days I am an operator.

"Tinkerer" has a more negative connotation in my mind than does "operator". Designing and building a project is not tinkering, at least in my book.

Joe

[KG6YTZ]

Quote[/b] (AA0CX @ Nov. 01 2007,14:56)]Did someone mention us vintage freaks? #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
How old does one have to be in order to be considered a vintage freak? I'm 41, m'self. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

But anyway... Put me down as a ragchewing operator who would love to be a renowned tinkerer if I only had the skills and the work space.

[k0cmh]

SVD:

As in previous posts of mine, you seem to miss the point. #Did you not read all the replies. #

In one, I stated that I was some of both, a shade of "dark gray".

Yes, we are all somewhere inbetween the extremes (well, most of us).

You seem to have a propensity for the personal attack.

EDIT: In my original post, I stated that there is room for both. And nowhere did I say anything about a "real ham", in fact very much the opposite. Again, I said there is room for both.

However, the overwhelming majority of comments agree it is not black and white.

But it does appear that a pretty decent discussion resulted. I liked a lot of the answers and they have given me much thought.

Thanks all. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[kb2vxa]

We used to wonder about the caste system in India yet since those days we have adopted it. The NCT/appliance operator is the new untouchable and it goes from there. What about the gay prince whose family disowned him? What about the tinkerer/operator? Will you disown the tinkerer who puts his creation on the air and operates?

What a bunch of hypocrites you are! We're supposed to be a fraternity but just look right here, but a few posts from the top and already the thread degenerates into another bashing session. No wonder so many have abandoned the Zed and moved to greener pastures! Oh, and they talk about you behind your backs too, nyah nyah.

Post edit;
"Sure, what happens on the Net isn't what happens on the air, but just what does that mean?"

Are you smarter than the average rock? Just this morning a stone told me you justify yourselves with that very statement more frequently than there are grains of sand on the beach. If a piece of quartz can answer that question it's pretty obvious it escaped being ground into a crystal and subject to ham abuse.

[n8yx]

Quote[/b] (ww3qb @ Nov. 01 2007,13:49)]Who has built their own rig (the Elecraft kits count)? Or at least made a major repair? Refurbished a boat anchor?
That would be me - I do so quite often.

I've also designed and built a large number of amateur radio/SWL/ute devices: Synthesizers...power amplifiers...antennas, keyers (iambic, memory, etc)...power supplies...test gear...transmitters, receivers, you name it.

One of my favorite things to do is to mod a given rig so as to add functionality that was missing from the factory and in the process, make the end result LOOK 'factory'.

Two of my three Drake R7s have a squelch control which is concentric with the 'Notch' pot; all using stock Drake knobs.

The third R7 I own is currently sitting in the "to-do" stack; it's up for a complete restoration and will be fitted with the same concentric pot arrangement as the other two...but instead of a squelch, it's going to get an IF Gain control.

Likewise with the two TR5s which are sitting in the same stack: Both of them are due for notch filters and IF Gain control upgradess...I may do something with onboard DSP if I have room in the cases.

My current 'homebrew' project is the creation of a new radio desk to house all the receivers, transceivers and accessories which seem to find their way into my shack...

[n8yx]

Quote[/b] (kb2vxa @ Nov. 02 2007,05:37)]What about the gay prince whose family disowned him? What about the tinkerer/operator? Will you disown the tinkerer who puts his creation on the air and operates?
Never mind all that. What about the gay tinkerer - will 'kww allow him to check into the Marconi Net?

[ab1ga]

Quote[/b] (kb2vxa @ Nov. 02 2007,07:37)]Post edit;
"Sure, what happens on the Net isn't what happens on the air, but just what does that mean?"

Are you smarter than the average rock? Just this morning a stone told me you justify yourselves with that very statement more frequently than there are grains of sand on the beach. If a piece of quartz can answer that question it's pretty obvious it escaped being ground into a crystal and subject to ham abuse.
Well, I must be dumber than a rock because I didn't understand one word of that part! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Nov. 01 2007,23:09)]The false assumption is that a ham can only be one thing.

Ryan has is right. There are multiple forms of being a ham.

About 4 days a year, I am a contester, but not at all the rest of the time. Several days, I am a repeater engineer or maintainer. Other days I am an operator.

"Tinkerer" has a more negative connotation in my mind than does "operator". Designing and building a project is not tinkering, at least in my book.

Joe
Yep, and it's the M.O. of many Amateurs who are criticized to try and take whole groups down with them. This is one case where an individual's effect on AR is "all about you". It's not about what you do (as long as it's legal) it's about HOW YOU DO IT.

Personal behavior and responsibility of the individual is the real "gap" in AR.

[KC0OFZ]

Quote[/b] (ka0gkt @ Nov. 01 2007,17:50)]My XYL says that I must be a tinkerer. #She says that I stopped being an operator the day I slid that ring on her finger and said "I DO", and if she ever hears that I've become an operator again, I can say goodbye to certain portions of my anatomy of which I've become quite fond.

73 DE KAØGKT/7

--Steve
Steve
Just tell her you can run faster scared than she can mad. That is what I tell my XYL all the time. Besides, fear is a powerful motivator!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Actually I understand fully what you have been told, I have the same "orders" myself. Oh well, that is why I have the radios, RC airplanes, camper, boats, ect to keep my mind busy.

[ky5u]

Wanna have fun? Go up behind your wife/girlfriend and wrap your arms around her waist. Then say, "you know from the back when you're in your underware, you look just like your sister". Then see how long you can hand on.

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (k0cmh @ Nov. 02 2007,05:06)]SVD:

As in previous posts of mine, you seem to miss the point. Did you not read all the replies.

In one, I stated that I was some of both, a shade of "dark gray".

Yes, we are all somewhere inbetween the extremes (well, most of us).

You seem to have a propensity for the personal attack.

EDIT: In my original post, I stated that there is room for both. And nowhere did I say anything about a "real ham", in fact very much the opposite. Again, I said there is room for both.

However, the overwhelming majority of comments agree it is not black and white.

But it does appear that a pretty decent discussion resulted. I liked a lot of the answers and they have given me much thought.

Thanks all. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
CMH:
I guess what I've tried to say all along is that an Amateur, to be well rounded, should be at least a little of both. An "operator" should have at least some technical skills and knowledge. For example: KNOW how to make a dipole, or how to apply Ohm's Law. BAD Example: A while back, a fellow claimed he had NO idea how to replace the tubes in his amplifier, and wanted to know if he could pay a local Amateur to do the work, or would have to send it back to the factory.
IMHO, short of being physically challenged, an Amateur SHOULD be able to do this him/herself, even if they ask an Elmer to assist. In that case, a physical handicap was apparently not an issue.
Perhaps "tinkerer" is a poor choice of terms, but a better one fails me at the moment. But it's anyone who actually gets their hands on components, tweaks things, etc. And I certainly would include anyone who homebrews equipment, whether from a strictly utilitarian need for a piece of equipment, or from the pleasure of "hands-on" work. Either way, there IS a great deal of satisfaction in a DIY project. Obviously, not everyone has the skill or training to design their equipment from 'scratch." Even the old, old timers in days of yore did that; many built equipment based on descriptions in QST, the Handbooks, etc. There's nothing wrong with that; not everyone is an RF Engineer; not everyone even has the time, money, or facilities to tackle large projects (or in some cases, even small projects.) But it would be preferable that they have an understanding, at least to some extent, of how some equipment works, and why.
And hopefully even the inveterate "tinkerer" or experimenter would hopefully develop enough social skill to occasionally get on the air and operate; otherwise, all the experimentation and tinkering has a questionable purpose.

The face of Amateur Radio is changing. But the divide I see is from a different standpoint than yours. I don't see the "tinkerers" trying to insist everyone tinker to the exclusion of operating, yet there IS an element that seems to insist that operating is all that is needed in AMateur Radio, and are adament in their belief "No tinkering necessary," with some on the verge of demanding "no tinkering allowed."

Again, I'm saying that the well-rounded Amateur should have at least a LITTLE of both in their blood.

No personal attack was meant, and I believe that's an over reaction. And FWIW, I never used a term such as "real ham." I'm not sure there IS a definition of a "real ham;" certainly not one that is, or ever will be, acceptable to everyone.
Yes, a good discussion, with many excellent comments, and that's (IMHO) what T&O is all about. And I AM sorry if you felt offended or personally attacked. Not my intention.
And I find it encouraging to see that there ARE others that are and want to be a "shade of gray" rather than just "black or white."


Added:
CMH: My post was a long time in composing; I was called away from the computer for a couple of hours while it was "in process." Your original post seemed an attempt to "stir the pot" and cause more dissention, which we do NOT need. There have been many intelligent, decent replies. I hope you accept mine as such also.

But you claim a "personal attack" when a comment is made in disagreement with you or a thread you post? The original post WAS indeed perceived by sefveral as enforcing a divide, not anything else. Claiming you were both "operator and tinkerer" in a later post but complaining about an attack before you explained yourself is disingeneous and a disservice to those here that read or have already posted on your "topic." Surely you can do better and show all QRZ users a bit more respect?

[n8yx]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Nov. 02 2007,07:39)]Wanna have fun? Go up behind your wife/girlfriend and wrap your arms around her waist. Then say, "you know from the back when you're in your underware, you look just like your sister". Then see how long you can hand on.
Mine would simply call me a liar, because she's definitely the thinnest of her family...

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[KC0OFZ]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Nov. 02 2007,07:39)]Wanna have fun? #Go up behind your wife/girlfriend and wrap your arms around her waist. Then say, "you know from the back when you're in your underware, you look just like your sister". #Then see how long you can hand on.
No dice, that would earn me a good hit in places that are better left unhit!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif