View Full Version : Numbers Of Hams Through 9/30/07
Here is the analysis the numbers of individual FCC licensees covering the months of July through September 2007.
Notes:
I looks like the overall ARS numbers have increased by 1,176 from July through September. Tech/+, General and Extra all had an increase while Novice and Advanced had a decline. It seems like the large movement from hams upgrading to General and Extra has slowed down considerably from the last reporting period while the Technician class experienced some growth.
I should point out that what is being posted here are a comparison of two snapshots of the numbers taken at two different times and it should also be mentioned that the numbers change every day, sometimes increasing and sometimes decreasing. I always use the last day of previous reporting period and the last day of the present reporting period.
Total active individual licenses as of May 14, 2000:
Novice - 49,329
Tech/+ - 334,254
General - 112,677
Advanced - 99,782
Extra - 78,750
Total all classes - 674,792
Total active individual licenses as of September 30, 2007:
Novice - 21,154 (-57.11%) (-28,175)
Tech/+ - 313,887 (-6.10%) (-20,377)
General - 142,474 (+25.44%) (+29,797)
Advanced - 66,630 (-33.22%) (-33,152)
Extra - 111,566 (+41.67%) (+32,816)
Total All Classes: 655,711 (+1,176) since the
3rd Quarter 2007 reporting period ending June 30.
The numbers above are in comparison to what they were as of May 14, 2000 as this was when the code test was dropped to 5WPM for General and Extra.
Total all classes (5/14/00) - 674,792
Total all Classes (4/21/03) - 687,860
Total all classes (9/30/07) - 655,711
Total loss of 19,081 since 5/14/2000 (Was 674,792)
Total Loss of 32,149 since 4/2003 (all time high of 687,860)
We Gained:
763 Tech/+
1,134 General
762 Extra
+2,659 Total
We lost:
591 Novice
892 Advanced
- 1,483 Total
+ 1,176 Gain for the quarter
Numbers of US population and the number of hams at the start of each decade from 1930.
Year Population # Hams Growth Rate
1930 123,202,624 19,000
1940 132,164,569 56,000 194%
1950 151,325,798 87,000 55%
1960 179,323,175 230,000 164%
1970 203,211,926 263,918 15%
1980 226,545,805 393,353 49%
1990 248,709,873 502,677 28%
2000 281,421,906 682,240 36%
2007 300,000,000 655,711 -3.9%
The 2007 number was as of September 30 2007
73
George
K3UD
KI4PEQ
10-04-2007, 08:59 AM
Let the code vs. no code feud begin yet again...just in case you missed it.
NN4RH
10-04-2007, 10:14 AM
Following the July ARRL BOD meeting, they announced that their goal was for 30,000 new hams during 2008.
At a rate of gain of about 400 per month that these data indicate, I don't think that is likely.
Quote[/b] (NN4RH @ Oct. 03 2007,04:14)]Following the July ARRL BOD meeting, they announced that their goal was for 30,000 new hams during 2008.
At a rate of gain of about 400 per month that these data indicate, I don't think that is likely.
Also, it might be interesting to correlate the number of ARRL memberships over the same time period from 1930 to 2007 as a percentage of all amateurs.
Goals are goals, Ron. Sometimes reality is off by an order of magnitude. Er, well, maybe not a goal, on second thought. More like a dream......
Quote[/b] (KI4PEQ @ Oct. 03 2007,02:59)]Let the code vs. no code feud begin yet again...just in case you missed it.
Reduction in CW proficiency began in 2000 and ended as a requirement last year. So, over the 7 years that CW requirements were lowered, and eventually eliminated, we've lost in total numbers.
If one believes that the elmination of CW was an incentive, then, why have the numbers dropped 3.9% from 2000 to 2007?
Think, instead, CC&Rs and the Hinternet. Toss in the IPod and IPhone too. Actually, the attrition of us oldsters is occurring at a rate greater than new, younger licensees.
Unless someone changes the paradigm, the ARS will fade away.
It doesn't really matter what the number represent now (well yeah, it sort of does!), but what really counts is where those numbers will end up ten years from now when it comes time to renew. Getting people into amateur radio is the easy part, but getting them to stay in radio is the hard part.
Do I have the answer? No. Does the ARRL have the answer? We shall see!
Scott NØIU
N5DUX
10-04-2007, 01:04 PM
I made a script that goes through and counts the number of new hams each month. The graph is worth seeing. (and there's also a table of raw numbers for more exacting number crunching)
http://n5dux.com/ham/issued/
What has surprised me is the sharp drop off of those who are upgrading. From the time the code test was dropped in late February 2007 to the end of June 07 we saw a fairly large number of hams upgrading to General and Extra. This was 12,739 hams who upgraded to General or Extra as detailed in the last reporting period.
In this reporting period we had 1,896 who upgraded to General or Extra. I would have thought that this number would be higher as the hamfest season was in full swing and almost all of them have VE test sessions.
73
George
K3UD
K8DGL
10-04-2007, 02:26 PM
Just listen to the conversations on the air. It is quite apparent Ham Radio is dummying itself. Upgrading doesn't seem to help. World Radio magazine has a person complaining about the nonsence extra class question about phase angles. Maybe it's time to just abolish licensing all together. Filling out the application will be too much for some people.
n1dvj
10-04-2007, 02:46 PM
The only dumming down I see is from the assinine people who keep posting DUMB stuff about getting rid of the exams alltogether.
Get a freaking life!
K1VSK
10-04-2007, 03:03 PM
Quote[/b] (n1dvj @ Oct. 04 2007,07:46)]The only dumming down I see is from the assinine[sp] asinine people who keep posting DUMB stuff about getting rid of the exams alltogether[sp] altogether.
Get a freaking life!
Might be best to refrain from criticizing others about their intelligence level until you can do it without spelling errors.
Guess you don't need to spell on phone...
[I]
Here is a bit more info - % of population. #Actually higher now than in 1990.
Year # #Population # ## Hams # % of Population
1930 123,202,624 # 19,000 # # # # #0.015
1940 132,164,569 # 56,000 # # # # #0.042
1950 151,325,798 # 87,000 # # # # #0.057
1960 179,323,175 #230,000 # # 0.128
1970 203,211,926 # # #230,000 # # # # # # # # # #0.113
1980 226,545,805 #393,353 # # # # # 0.174
1990 248,709,873 #502,677 # # # # # 0.202
2000 281,421,906 #682,240 # # # # # 0.242
2007 300,000,000 #655,711 # # # # # 0.219
I've played with formating this 3 times and it still does NOT look good. I hope you can tell what it should be.
ken
K0RGR
10-04-2007, 04:22 PM
I think we've known for many years that the vast majority of licensees were actually inactive - particularly the Technicians.
Many of these Techs were 'cell phone Techs' who got their ham tickets just so they could use the local autopatch, and have since moved on to Sprint and AT+T. These people are not renewing their tickets, and it will take at least a decade to get them out of the statistics. I suspect that there will be a sharp drop there in coming years. The fact that there has been any increase is a good thing.
The dropoff in upgrades is very disturbing. It shows that most Techs just don't care about ham radio, or can't see how a General ticket would benefit them. So much for the excitement of 2 meter FM. I somehow doubt it's because they're all satisfied with 10 meter phone and HF CW.
I think it is further proof that Wayne Green was right 30 years ago when he said that you couldn't give away Extra Class tickets to the general public if you tried. That's why we need to be EXTREMELY careful not to scare off the newbies who are actually interested in RADIO. We need to do all we can to encourage them to use their new HF privileges, so they don't die in the vast FM wasteland.
I think the sunspot cycle will help a lot in a couple years. When you can work the world on 10 meters again, the level of interest will increase.
W6XTC
10-04-2007, 04:33 PM
I too see a decline in numbers in the areas that matter, in fact I have not been on QRZ in a while, and I even notice a decline in the number of responses on the posts, compared to a year ago, maybe Fred can provide us some figures on that one also…..
However, Lee (W6EM) is spot on with his assumptions! I hate to say it but in my opinion before 2020 the ARS will be a figment of our past, just like the dinosaurs.
It has nothing to do with code – vs – nocode, it has even less to do with the alleged “dumbing down” Come on folks, figure it out, it’s not rocket science! Lets look at, in my opinion, what are the six deadly sins of the ARS.
CCand R’---- the biggest enemy of ARS. We have just moved to TX and it took 5 and half months to find a property without CCand R’s and deed restrictions. I paid more than market value for the house, and had a very patient wife, but not all of us have that option. As I have written before on this forum, if you cannot erect a half way decent antenna, you may as well forget working from home.
So you say, well we can go mobile, forget the 2K amplifier etc, well that’s OK, but try calling up any new car dealer/manufacturer, and asking them, by installing a hf radio in the vehicle, will it harm any of the computerized components? You will most likely receive a response similar to “I’m sorry sir, I have no idea what you are talking about, I suggest you take your vehicle to a car audio installer” Hmm since when do car audio installers have any idea about hf transmissions.
Promotion ---- I challenge anyone to go into their neighborhood, and ask non hams, what they know or what they think amateur radio is. Your answers will be,
1. Isn’t that something like CB?
2. Oh, that’s the morse code thingy
3. Oh yes I heard something about that during Katrina
4. My grandpa used to do that
There’s no promotion guys ---- unless we have a disaster which no one wants, to the non ham world, we are that secret little society of old men, that meet once a month at the local clubhouse. How many clubs have open days? How many clubs, go to the schools and promote the hobby? How many clubs try to get a spot on the local radio/TV network?
Price ---- Let’s look a scenario, I am a teenager, I am sort of interested in communications and ham radio, I have studied for the tests and feel confident I can pass them, now I do a price comparison.
• I can go to any cellphone provider and get if not a free cellphone, a very cheap, less than $100 phone. It fits into my pocket, does not need an antenna per-say, and I can talk to who I want to providing I know the persons number, relatively cheaply.
• On the other hand, if I want to talk to someone over the ARS say in Florida, and I live in TX, I’ll need an hf transceiver (almost $1000) antenna ( $300 upwards) coax, and so on and so on.. It’s a limited market folks, the Icoms’, Yaesus’, and Kenwoods’ of the world can ask what they want for the ham gear.
Today’s youth ---- so finally it comes down to the younger people. Lets first look at a previous post which spoke of youngsters coming into the test centers, as a positive. Indeed it is a plus that youngsters are taking the tests, some of them even taking the full compliment, but how many of those youngsters are doing it because “dad” has an amateur radio? That would be a high percentage if we could ever get that number. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not knocking the fact that youngsters are taking the tests, what we need is more youngsters from non ham families getting involved. Those youngsters, not us, will determine the future of the ARS.
As Lee (W6EM) spoke to, unfortunately the youngsters of today, see the only forms of communication being the internet and cellphones.
Ourselves---- well this post would not be complete unless part of the blame of the decline, of the ARS fell upon us directly. Don’t you think we need to improve our image on the radio? Trying to think in the minds of someone thinking of starting up in ARS, I listen to the bands, and hear “Yes you are 5 by 9 in Arizona, CQ DX CQ DX next caller please” --- or “well I went to the doctor, and he told me that I had 3 kidney stones, the start of a bowel infection, and a swollen ankle” ….. Make people feel welcome, chat a little about common interests, get to know your fellow hams …
Our Representatives --- So who represents us to help promote the hobby? The ARRL? Well they certainly have a good website, a very informative newsletter, we have a once a year field day, but are they pressuring the right people constantly about CC and R’s, are they promoting the hobby outside of the ham community, are they contacting the manufacturers, negotiating discounts for their members, are they setting up spots on TV and radio promoting the hobby, and letting people know just what the ARS is all about?
I am not saying I could do a better job than the ARRL, because I could not, what I am saying is that we need more sustaining support on the matters that are important to the ham community.
To close, I have always enjoyed the ARS and what it gives me personally. It’s a hobby which I for one would hate to see become a thing of the past. With all the advances in communication and electronics, there is no reason for the hobby to die, but it’s up to us and our children to prevent its untimely death. Let’s have a ham radio national awareness day or something like that, whatever we do lets not allow the decline of this global heritage.
W5HLH
10-04-2007, 04:47 PM
Quote[/b] (NN4RH @ Oct. 04 2007,03:14)]Following the July ARRL BOD meeting, they announced that their goal was for 30,000 new hams during 2008.
Anybody remember when the ARRL made a big push after "Novice enhancement" in the 1980s to increase the number of new Novices? Remember all those photos in QST of entire third and fourth grade classes in which every kid had gotten a Novice license?
I wonder how many of those kids are still licensed? For that matter, I wonder how many of those kids ever got on the air and made even one contact?
I suspect the answer to both questions is "none." And I also suspect the ARRL's current efforts will be just as futile in increasing the number of hams.
When I got interested in ham radio in 1963---before the internet, before communications satellites---the idea of having your own radio station and being able to contact people hundreds and even thousands of miles away was something out of a science fiction movie. Today kids routinely swap e-mail, videos, and even play video games with people around the world via the internet. Easy, cheap, and reliable communication is a normal part of their lives; there's nothing magical or special to them about having your own radio station. As a high school age nephew told me, "I can do more with my cell phone than you can do with all that radio stuff." Argue with him all you want, but that's how kids today see the world----they want to text-message their friends, not work DX on 20 SSB.
To be honest, I doubt if I would've ever gotten interested in radio if there had been an internet when I was a kid.
Well we now know that the "attract new amateurs, the youth of our country, and technically inclined" argument for removing the code test was bunk. As many predicted, we'd see a bump from NCT upgrades to General and that would be about it. So what do we give away now?
Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Oct. 04 2007,05:13)]So what do we give away now?
FCC Form 660
Scott NØIU
Quote[/b] (w6em @ Oct. 04 2007,05:35)]
Quote[/b] ]Reduction in CW proficiency began in 2000 and ended as a requirement last year
Actually, the reduction in code *testing* began more than 25 years ago.
First the sending test went away (1978?). Then came medical waivers and a nocodetest license class. (1990-1991).
It's been a gradual thing, same as changes to the written exams.
Quote[/b] ]So, over the 7 years that CW requirements were lowered, and eventually eliminated, we've lost in total numbers.
What actually happened, and what the per-decade numbers do not show, is that from 2000 to mid-2003 the number of US hams grew steadily to over 683,000. The decline has all been since then.
Quote[/b] ]CC&Rs and the Hinternet. Toss in the IPod and IPhone too. Actually, the attrition of us oldsters is occurring at a rate greater than new, younger licensees.
Those things are all factors. Here are some more:
1) We used to get a significant number of new hams
from folks who wanted to use ham radio as a personal
communications service - a free cell phone, as it were.
Nothing wrong with that, but with cell phones everywhere
now, we're not getting those folks like we did 20 years
ago.
2) Since the 1970s we've gotten more new hams who
are adults rather than kids. Nothing wrong with that but
the average length of an amateur 'career' goes down
because of that, and we need more replacements per
year to keep the numbers up.
3) One word: Publicity. Not everyone wants to be a ham, but those who would be interested will never be hams
unless they know ham radio exists.
Quote[/b] ]Unless someone changes the paradigm, the ARS will fade away
Look at the numbers from the 1960s. I heard the same thing about amateur radio dying out back then. Didn't happen.
73 de Jim, N2EY
kc7gnm
10-04-2007, 06:36 PM
Do these numbers take into account the hams that have died but their license is still listed in the FCC database?
If the FCC is not notified of the death the license still shows as active until the license is dropped from the rolls. I do not know of a way to begin to estimate how many SKs are still in the database. QST runs a list of silent keys every month and it can vary quite a bit. I would also think that if someone reported a SK to the ARRL they probably also let the FCC know.
73
George
K3UD
Quote[/b] (K9FV @ Oct. 04 2007,11:04)]Here is a bit more info - % of population. Actually higher now than in 1990.
Year Population # Hams % of Population
1930 123,202,624 19,000 0.015
1940 132,164,569 56,000 0.042
1950 151,325,798 87,000 0.057
1960 179,323,175 230,000 0.128
1970 203,211,926 230,000 0.113
1980 226,545,805 393,353 0.174
1990 248,709,873 502,677 0.202
2000 281,421,906 682,240 0.242
2007 300,000,000 655,711 0.219
I've played with formating this 3 times and it still does NOT look good. I hope you can tell what it should be.
ken
Ken,
I also have problems aligning the tables.
I think you used the wrong number for 1970.
There were 263,918 hams and the population was 203,211,926
This amounted to 0.130% of the population at that time.
73
George
K3UD
n1dvj
10-04-2007, 10:05 PM
Quote[/b] (K1VSK @ Oct. 04 2007,08:03)]Might be best to refrain from criticizing others about their intelligence level until you can do it without spelling errors.
Guess you don't need to spell on phone...
Yeah, well... #That's what happens, I guess, when you become too dependant on the spell checker that normally runs in OE!
Sometimes I'll actually write a post in OE, check it, then cut-n-paste it to whatever forum I'm posting in.
It happens, and I'm sure you can imagine what 'it' is!
And making a stupid post doesn't really reflect on someone's overall intelligence levels. I hope. I've made some whoppers!
K1VSK
10-04-2007, 10:41 PM
Quote[/b] (n1dvj @ Oct. 04 2007,15:05)]Quote[/b] (K1VSK @ Oct. 04 2007,08:03)]Might be best to refrain from criticizing others about their intelligence level until you can do it without spelling errors.
Guess you don't need to spell on phone...
Yeah, well... #That's what happens, I guess, when you become too dependant on the spell checker that normally runs in OE!
Sometimes I'll actually write a post in OE, check it, then cut-n-paste it to whatever forum I'm posting in.
It happens, and I'm sure you can imagine what 'it' is!
And making a stupid post doesn't really reflect on someone's overall intelligence levels. #I hope. #I've made some whoppers!
Off topic for which I apologize but I'll be the first to admit no one is perfect, certainly including me. Only intended to point out that, although you may disagree, the "dumbing down" theory is alive and in full bloom when it comes to amateur radio and regardless of your opinion, my opinion doesn't make me as "dumb" as the person to whom you last made that accusation.
With respect to AR these days, some have written about the price of modern equipment being an obstacle, contemporary electrionic equipment being an alternative, or lack of self-promotion of the hobby being neglected as reasons why AR is on the apparent decline. I would offer a different view -
That we (modern day American society) ask for and expect so little of today's children or young adults when it comes to virtually any form of achievement. That we instill a sense of instant gratification over valuing diligence and effort in order to accomplish anything. That we make it so easy that all one needs to do is memorize a finite pool of extremely fundamental questions to obtain a ham license.
It's incredible some wonder why we got to this point and even worse, where we're going...
KE7ICV
10-05-2007, 12:04 AM
After reading through this post I thought I'd jump in and add my perspective. #I became interested in ARS when I was 5 and helped my dad fix a shortwave receiver. #I did not quite understand everything then, but I knew it was something I wanted to know everything about. #Flash forward to when I was in middle school and I took radio theory lessons to get my ticket. #I learned a great deal, but did not have a way to get to the testing center since it was much further away than where the lessons were held and so I let it go. #I later got my electronics and radio merit badges on the way to Eagle Scout, got my bachelors in electronics engineering, worked for Motorola as an apprentice to an RF engineer, and for the last decade have worked as a network administrator for a few wireless ISP’s and now a hospital. #That being said I am also the anti-Christ of a lot of the older hams. #I am 30 years old, got my Tech after my youngest was old enough to sleep the night, and since I had already passed the written elements I was working on CW (and was ready for the test) when they dropped it completely. #I have come to QRZ from time to time since and sometimes read the posts, but I have yet to transmit. #Many of you fight on the posts and argue on the air and bash people like myself, and don’t really feel all that welcome to join in. #I have three small kids that take almost 100% of my time and budget, and other than a Rockmite I made and a 20 year old 10M rig I don’t have any equipment since it is so expensive, and don’t know anyone that is a ham. #Anyway, I’m rambling here and need to stop. #I’ll just say that I bet that if any one of you light up your rig sometime and ask if there is anyone out there monitoring that has never transmitted, you would probably be the first contact for a lot of hams. #Please understand that just because I am a new ham and I did get my Extra under the no code rules that doesn’t mean I am an idiot from CB that just memorized the test. #Thanks
N2MMM
10-05-2007, 12:38 AM
All of this ignores the fact that the American standard of living has entered a period of sustained and permant decline. Our kids will have less money to spend on hobbies. It is that simple. Other forums which deal with various hobbies all are discussing the decline in participation in those respective hobbies. The diminishing American lifestyle and economy is the REAL reason for the decline in hobbies in general.
Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ Oct. 03 2007,18:38)]All of this ignores the fact that the American standard of living has entered a period of sustained and permant decline. Our kids will have less money to spend on hobbies. It is that simple. Other forums which deal with various hobbies all are discussing the decline in participation in those respective hobbies. The diminishing American lifestyle and economy is the REAL reason for the decline in hobbies in general.
I'd beg to differ. #When I was a kid, I didn't have any money and my folks didn't heap high praise on my interest in electronics. #So, I "dumpster dove." #Yeah, at the phone company (for phone parts, A and B batteries and tubes) and a local TV shop and even the Salvation Army. #The TV shop was a gold mine for old TV chassises with large transformers. #The Salvation Army for old tube SW/AM radio console models. #(Those things are worth a mint today).
Although I didn't build my first receiver (A Hallicrafters S-107), I did build my first transmitter, as a Novice, out of a scrapped ARC 5 chassis, using a 1625 as a final and two seriesed-up TV transformers for plate and filament voltage. #And, with my 75W input, I worked DX on 40M. #Total investment was maybe about $100 in 1961 dollars for the receiver.
Today, that would be a lot more. #But, don't poo-poo used gear. #For a couple hundred, there are some fine used radios out there like the Kenwood TS-430 and 440; or the early ICOM 706. #Just add a 12V power supply.
Those radios are great because they have fine, all band, all mode receivers and can keep even a prospective ham entertained listening to shortwave broadcast while the sunspot cycle is playing havoc with HF.
Bottom line: #It doesn't require a $1000-$3000 investment to get on the air. #You can do it inexpensively if you know where to look and what to look for in used gear. #BTW, my next radio was a Johnson Viking II and a Hammarlund HQ-129X. #Total cost: #$150 for the pair. #That was in 1963. #And, I sold the S-107.
Even after the move up to commercially made gear, I still dumpster-dove. #The habit kept me in ample supply of resistors, capacitors and other various parts and pieces. #Cheap and fun. #I moved up to surplus stores in silicon valley when I grew up. #And, I'm still a junk collector.
The decline of the American economy is somewhat demoralizing when you look at where US companies are sending high tech work, but that will come back to bite them where it hurts. #It already has for Motorola, and soon for the auto industry. #How? #Asia doesn't respect patents and copyrights. #Never has. #Never will. #You give them the design and the parts, you'll eventually have them making the widgets and selling them for 10 cents on the dollar. #But, who's fault is that?
Tariffs on this end will help, but, fix the tax laws so that excessive income tax, an excise or surcharge tax, is charged on profits from goods made by US firms outside the US and brought back here. #At least that way, the lost tax revenue from American worker paychecks will be captured as a modest penalty for selling America down the river......
And, one last point. #American worker productivity. #Not as good as China's. #They work 6.5 days a week over there. #No vacations. #In Europe, though, typical vacations are 6-7 weeks a year. #So, if we're in economic decline because we aren't competitive, what's Europe in? #A Europe that gets 120 hours per worker less per year.
Declining numbers of youngsters hamming it up aren't the result of economic decline. #Its from too many other toys. #And parents that foot the 100-200 per month cell phone bills instead of throwing out the cell phones and spending two month's cell phone charges on a used transceiver. #From that point on, ham radio's free.......
Put the difference in an educational savings account for college.
73.
Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ Oct. 04 2007,17:38)]
Quote[/b] ]All of this ignores the fact that the American standard of living has entered a period of sustained and permant decline.
That depends on how you define "decline".
On the one hand, luxuries cost less today than
ever before, when you adjust for inflation. But
necessities cost more! So the cost of a nice
ham rig is lower (in inflation-adjusted dollars)
than 20-30-40-50 years ago, but having a
house to put it in is higher.
Quote[/b] ]Our kids will have less money to spend on hobbies. It is that simple. Other forums which deal with various hobbies all are discussing the decline in participation in those respective hobbies. The diminishing American lifestyle and economy is the REAL reason for the decline in hobbies in general.
But the hobbies cost less than they used to.
I think the problem isn't money at all, but time and other resources. Like space in the basement or attic, room for antennas, usable junk and tools, etc.
There's also the fact that amateur radio has always been a niche thing. When I was in high school (1968-1972),
there were never more than a half-dozen licensed hams
out of over 2500 boys in the school. That was before computers, the internet, cell phones, iPods, video games, etc. "Radio for its own sake", which is the core of amateur radio, wasn't something a lot of folks wanted to do.
73 de Jim, N2EY
73 de Jim, N2EY
n1dvj
10-05-2007, 11:14 AM
Quote[/b] (K1VSK @ Oct. 04 2007,15:41)]Off topic for which I apologize but I'll be the first to admit no one is perfect, certainly including me. Only intended to point out that, although you may disagree, the "dumbing down" theory is alive and in full bloom when it comes to amateur radio and regardless of your opinion, my opinion doesn't make me #as "dumb" as the person to whom you last made that accusation.
Hey, opinions are like, well, you know. It's not the opinion that sometimes gets my hackles up, it's the 'lets drop all testing' bs.
As to off topic, I'm not a fanatic on that. In fact, I'll go off topic too. Catch this link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7026637.stm
Uh oh! Will I now be accused of fostering the morse wars?
n9lya
10-05-2007, 12:05 PM
How many of those ACTIVE licenses are actually Active Licensees? I mean active on RADIO not QRZ..
Maybe no way to tell.. But the number of active license, means nothing if you do not get all the facts ...
73 jerry
Quote[/b] (w6em @ Oct. 04 2007,19:14)]
Quote[/b] ]When I was a kid, I didn't have any money and my folks didn't heap high praise on my interest in electronics. So, I "dumpster dove." Yeah, at the phone company (for phone parts, A and B batteries and tubes) and a local TV shop and even the Salvation Army. The TV shop was a gold mine for old TV chassises with large transformers. The Salvation Army for old tube SW/AM radio console models. (Those things are worth a mint today).
I did the same thing. But in those days you could
actually make a rig out of the parts from a TV and
AM BC radios.
Quote[/b] ]The decline of the American economy is somewhat demoralizing when you look at where US companies are sending high tech work, but that will come back to bite them where it hurts. It already has for Motorola, and soon for the auto industry.
It's not just high tech, either. How can country have
high tech industry without basic industries to support
them?
The problem started over 40 years ago, when the space
program soared while basic industries were allowed to
fall apart.
Quote[/b] ] American worker productivity. Not as good as China's. They work 6.5 days a week over there. No vacations. In Europe, though, typical vacations are 6-7 weeks a year. So, if we're in economic decline because we aren't competitive, what's Europe in? A Europe that gets 120 hours per worker less per year.
Worker productivity isn't measured by how many hours
someone works, but by how much work they actually
get done per hour and per dollar.
There's also the question of how standard-of-living is
measured. Does the average American *really* have
a higher standard of living than the average European?
The problem with American industry is too much focus
on the short term at the expense of the long term. Moving factories "offshore" helps the bottom line in the
short term, but eventually the payback comes in the form
of fewer Americans able to afford the products, and, as
you pointed out, the "offshore" folks making their own
stuff to compete. Meanwhile we have become dependent
on the imports.
Quote[/b] ]Declining numbers of youngsters hamming it up aren't the result of economic decline. Its from too many other toys. And parents that foot the 100-200 per month cell phone bills instead of throwing out the cell phones and spending two month's cell phone charges on a used transceiver. From that point on, ham radio's free.......
The reality is quite different from what you describe.
First off, there are family cell phone plans now where
the kids' phones only cost $10-20 per month to add on.
It would take a lot of months to save up for a rig at
that rate.
Second, simply having a rig doesn't make ham radio free.
Third and most important, cell phones have become a
near-necessity for many families, and their cost has
gone way down. Many people need cell phones for work, too. Some folks get rid of the
landline phone and use the cell for everything. Bundled
communications packages of cable TV, highspeed internet, and phone service drop the price even further.
The big problems with attracting new folks to ham radio are:
1) Publicity - too many people don't know ham radio
exists, or what it's really all about.
2) Difficulty getting started - A lot of us started out
with a simple shortwave receiver that only cost a few
dollars, and a simple wire out to the apple tree in
the back yard. Having to invest hundreds of dollars
in a rig, plus antenna, etc., makes it harder.
3) Lack of resources - how can you run that wire to the
apple tree if you don't have an apple tree or a back yard?
Plus CC&Rs.
Quote[/b] ]Put the difference in an educational savings account for college.
Good idea - but do you know what college costs these days? Yet it's more important than it ever was.
73 de Jim, N2EY
The average "poor kid" seems to be able to buy $100 sneakers and $300 game consoles. Nope. I don't buy declining finances as an excuse. You can put a CW station on the air for under $100 bucks. How long does it take a kid to earn $100 bucks these days?
Quote[/b] (N2EY @ Oct. 04 2007,06:42)]Many people need cell phones for work, too. Some folks get rid of the
landline phone and use the cell for everything. Bundled
communications packages of cable TV, highspeed internet, and phone service drop the price even further.
The big problems with attracting new folks to ham radio are:
1) Publicity - too many people don't know ham radio
exists, or what it's really all about.
2) Difficulty getting started - A lot of us started out
with a simple shortwave receiver that only cost a few
dollars, and a simple wire out to the apple tree in
the back yard. Having to invest hundreds of dollars
in a rig, plus antenna, etc., makes it harder.
3) Lack of resources - how can you run that wire to the
apple tree if you don't have an apple tree or a back yard?
Plus CC&Rs.
Quote[/b] ]Put the difference in an educational savings account for college.
Good idea - but do you know what college costs these days? Yet it's more important than it ever was.
73 de Jim, N2EY
Quote[/b] ]The reality is quite different from what you describe.
First off, there are family cell phone plans now where
the kids' phones only cost $10-20 per month to add on.
It would take a lot of months to save up for a rig at
that rate.
Yes, true, but don't forget the "minutes." #Adding extra phones share the plan minutes and *encourage* high costs when exceeding allocated free minutes. #Kids have a habit of constantly using cell toys for hours on end. #45 cents a minute gets real expensive, real fast. #Then, add on the texting costs for garbage and spam that finds its way onto phones.
Quote[/b] ]Second, simply having a rig doesn't make ham radio free.
I guess not. #5 cents to 15 cents per kiloWatt-hour #unless solar powered.
Quote[/b] ]Third and most important, cell phones have become a
near-necessity for many families, and their cost has
gone way down.
Yes, for true emergencies, a discarded cell phone must, by law, be able to access 911. #A freebie.
Bundling is an enticement. #Usually low-cost going in, but ratchetted up after a trial period.
Perhaps a worthwhile mission for CERT teams would be to educate the "informed" public about the vulnerabilities of the cellular network following a disaster. #A twisted pair is usually quite a bit more reliable.
KE4TZI
10-05-2007, 02:09 PM
Quote[/b] ] I’ll just say that I bet that if any one of you light up your rig sometime and ask if there is anyone out there monitoring that has never transmitted, you would probably be the first contact for a lot of hams.
There is a lot to be said for this statement. I Have been a ham for 13 years and hold a general class license. I passed 13 wpm code and have never used code or plan on using code.
My hf radio is ft920 which i have many hours of listening on and maybe 10 minutes of transmitting on. Most of what I hear said on the radio is what the doctor said is wrong with them and how they feel or who did what to who. Then You here the nets that come up and go down and you wonder what they were even about and last but not least you here some one contesting. So it is no wonder that there is not a lot of interest in our hobby. This is just my outlook on what I see.
Ed
First of all, about six percent of the hams being counted are already dead; their death won't be notice until no one renews their call.
If we want an increase in Amateurs, we need to eliminate testing entirely. After all, tests are not fair to technically challenged people. And our evolving National Socialist (heil Hilary!) society is nothing, if not fair. The only test needed should be the Dr. Strangelove salute.
Quote[/b] (w6em @ Oct. 05 2007,06:21)]
Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]The reality is quite different from what you describe.
First off, there are family cell phone plans now where
the kids' phones only cost $10-20 per month to add on.
It would take a lot of months to save up for a rig at
that rate.
Yes, true, but don't forget the "minutes." Adding extra phones share the plan minutes and *encourage* high costs when exceeding allocated free minutes. Kids have a habit of constantly using cell toys for hours on end. 45 cents a minute gets real expensive, real fast. Then, add on the texting costs for garbage and spam that finds its way onto phones.
Not with a decent plan. The ones I have seen do not count minutes all the time, do not count minutes between phones of the same network, and allow unused minutes to build up.
The kids I know do not use the cell phones for hours on end and do not build up extra charges. They know that
what they do shows up on the bill and that the parents
can shut down various features if needed.
The usual plan period is 2 years, too, with no increases
during that time.
The cell phone marketplace is so competitive that the
phones are free unless you want a really fancy one and
the added cost for a kid to have a cellphone is minimal.
Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]Second, simply having a rig doesn't make ham radio free.
I guess not. 5 cents to 15 cents per kiloWatt-hour unless solar powered.
As long as nothing ever needs to be fixed or maintained, no paper QSLs are ever sent and no memberships in any organizations.
Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]Third and most important, cell phones have become a
near-necessity for many families, and their cost has
gone way down.
Yes, for true emergencies, a discarded cell phone must, by law, be able to access 911. A freebie.
The cellphone is not just for emergencies. They're a
reality of life today. Plans change, people are out and
about, two-career families, etc. When's the last time you saw a pay phone?
If used intelligently, cell phones can pay for themselves
in saved gas by avoiding unnecessary trips.
Quote[/b] ]Bundling is an enticement. Usually low-cost going in, but ratchetted up after a trial period.
That's why you read the fine print. The end result may still be better.
Quote[/b] ]Perhaps a worthwhile mission for CERT teams would be to educate the "informed" public about the vulnerabilities of the cellular network following a disaster. A twisted pair is usually quite a bit more reliable.
Sure - but how often does a real, widespread
disaster happen?
What happens to the wired network when it does?
Relying on a cell phone - or any phone - for disasters
isn't a good idea. But for localized situations like
traffic jams, car trouble, last-minute-change-of-plans,
they do the job very well.
Back in the '70s, '80s and '90s we got a considerable
number of new hams in the form of people who
wanted a personal communications radio service.
Often entire families got licenses and HTs to keep
in touch. Some of them went on to other things in
ham radio, some didn't, no big deal. But we're not
getting many of those folks any more.
The reality is that cell phones are simply part of modern
life. They've become appliances, same as automatic
washers and dryers, computers, TVs, ranges, microwave ovens, etc.
73 de Jim, N2EY
wd4ptj
10-05-2007, 04:10 PM
I have been surprise at the number of hams in my area that have a tech license and are active hams and have not upgraded. Three come to mind. One works full time for a local counties EMA. He was a ham before he took that job and his father is a ham. He is the local head of RACES and is very active in emergency communications, but he has not bothered to upgrade yet. Another is a good freind of his and is the vice president of a local ham club. He is also active locally in emergency communications. He also has yet to upgrade. The third has been a ham for several years and is very active on vhf and uhf SSB and local repeaters owning a few repeaters himself. He claimed he had tried to learn the code in the past and had taken and failed the code test many times. Claims he now hates code. This guy tries to pass himself off as very smart technically but so far he as not upgraded. You would think after almost 1/2 year since code was dropped these people would have upgraded. I am pretty sure the last guy wants to get on HF. He gets on 10 meters when there is an opening now that he can do that as a tech. You would think the other two would want to be able to use HF in times of emergencies as well. Makes you think that learning the code was just an excuse for some people in the past.
K7JEM
10-05-2007, 04:52 PM
People upgrade if they want. or stay where they are, if they want. Truth is, only a small portion of techs have upgraded, for whatever reason.
They do not upgrade because we want them to, they upgrade because they want to do it. Some people are happy on VHF, and see no reason to upgrade. Others don't want to study for the test.
But whatever the reason, that is their decision to make, not ours.
Joe
Quote[/b] (W6XTC @ Oct. 04 2007,12:33)]• On the other hand, if I want to talk to someone over the ARS say in Florida, and I live in TX, I’ll need an hf transceiver (almost $1000) antenna ( $300 upwards) coax, and so on and so on.. It’s a limited market folks, the Icoms’, Yaesus’, and Kenwoods’ of the world can ask what they want for the ham gear.
You must shop at the wrong place for AR gear.
IC-718 160m-10m HF $550 (after rebate)
SS-25 12VDC supply $120
G5RV (don't start, guys) $60
MFJ-901B tuner $100
50 Ft RG-8U w/PL-259s $60
200 Ft of antenna rope $20
------------------------------------
Total $910
These are all new equipment prices, BTW.
AC5WO
10-05-2007, 06:45 PM
I'm one of the fairly rare hams from a non-ham family. I discovered the ionosphere by listening to distant AM radio stations using radios rescued from rummage sales and the trash. I discovered ham radio at a small town public library. Can't remember all the books, but I definitely read The ARRL Handbook. (The Handbook is a good reference book that all libraries should have.) I also remember several articles about amateur radio in more general interest magazines like Popular Mechanics, Popular Electronics, and even Mother Earth News. Maybe we should focus on getting more ham radio exposure in publications like Popular Mechanics.
Amateur radio equipment cost is less of a barrier than it was 25 years ago. Both then and now I get on the air with used equipment that only costs a few hundred dollars. However, adjusted for inflation, I pay less for used transceivers and the internet makes it much, much easier to find good deals.
W0DLR
10-05-2007, 07:11 PM
If a young lad gets a license today he isn't given a chance to do anything. He can check into a bowel movement net a few times, and then loses interest. If he goes to a club meeting, he soons gets the idea he is in a nursing home from hearing the complaining.
IF and its a big IF, a young person gets a license someone immediately needs to allow them to be a net control, an ARES person in charge of something or a club officer, etc.
The old men of ham radio are too possessive, they don't want to relinquish any cherished job, even though they let on like they do, a new member is practically ignored and never given a chance to do anything to contribute. Why the world would anyone want to stay active??
Until our ways change, we are still on the downhill roller-coaster.
K1VSK
10-05-2007, 07:44 PM
Quote[/b] (W0DLR @ Oct. 05 2007,12:11)]If a young lad gets a license today he isn't given a chance to do anything. #He can check into a bowel movement net a few times, and then loses interest. #If he goes to a club meeting, he soons gets the idea he is in a nursing home from hearing the complaining.
IF and its a big IF, a young person gets a license someone immediately needs to allow them to be a net control, an ARES person in charge of something or a club officer, etc.
The old men of ham radio are too possessive, they don't want to relinquish any cherished job, even though they let on like they do, a new member is practically ignored and never given a chance to do anything to contribute. Why the world would anyone want to stay active??
Until our ways change, we are still on the downhill roller-coaster.
Even if true, what's new?
This hasn't changed in 50 years. Not that it is right but I see nothing new here to disuade new hams anymore than it ever did.
There are FAR too many new opportunities to do things throughout the spectrum from digital modes and satellite communications to portable operations and tracking equipment with which to elicit interest that weren't available years ago so arguably there is more now to generate activity and interest than ever before.
To reiterate, if one obtains something as easily as obtaining a ham license is today, it is much less valued than it used to be. To put it another way, people tend to not appreciate anything unless they have to work for it.
Getting a drivers license is more difficult than earning a ham license.
ab1ga
10-05-2007, 07:47 PM
Net control? Club officer?
I don't think that age particularly matters in whether a given individual is capable of doing a job, but neither do I believe that a person should be offered any job just because they're new or young.
To do net control properly requires knowledge of proper procedure and attention to detail (which some current net control ops seem to lack http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ); any club officer's position by definition requires the trust of the members, which must be earned, not granted.
That doesn't mean new members cannot or should not contribute, just that as in all other things, they should start slow and build from there.
As far as newcomers getting experience, I -can- say that this is not the case at my club. My first year I was the GOTA station coordinator for Field Day, last year it was Deputy Field Day Coordinator, and next year I'm going into hiding!
Seriously, I think that in the right club (not always easy to find) there are always opportunities to lend a hand; after all, even net control ops want to take a vacation sometime!
Quote[/b] (W0DLR @ Oct. 05 2007,12:11)]#
Quote[/b] ]If a young lad gets a license today he isn't given a chance to do anything.
I disagree!
He (or she) has the chance to do anything his/her license and station allows.
Quote[/b] ]He can check into a .... net a few times, and then loses interest. If he goes to a club meeting, he soons gets the idea he is in a nursing home from hearing the complaining.
Perhaps.
Or he/she can chase DX, ragchew, contest, check into
traffic nets, try out CW, PSK31, and other modes, build gear, try different antennas, chase awards, and much more.
Quote[/b] ]IF and its a big IF, a young person gets a license someone immediately needs to allow them to be a net control, an ARES person in charge of something or a club officer, etc.
Immediately?
How is a newcomer supposed to learn how to do those things without some experience first? Such as being a
regular check-in before being net control?
That said, it doesn't take forever to get the basics down and at least try being net control or assistant chairman of a committee, etc.
Quote[/b] ]The old men of ham radio are too possessive, they don't want to relinquish any cherished job, even though they let on like they do, a new member is practically ignored and never given a chance to do anything to contribute. Why the world would anyone want to stay active??
Until our ways change, we are still on the downhill roller-coaster.
Ham radio isn't just about the local club. There's a lot more going on than that.
--
I became a ham in 1967 at the age of 13. Within a year I was an Advanced and got involved in traffic handling.
By the time I was 15 I was a regular section net NCS and representative to the Region net. A couple of times I was even sent to the Area net.
Nobody cared how long I'd had a license nor what my rig was. All they cared about was whether I could and would do the job. Once I demonstrated what I could do, they let me run with it.
Of course the big secret was that all this happened on CW. Nobody knew I was a high school kid with a homebrew rig, they only knew what they heard on the air. Birthdate info wasn't in the Callbook, either.
73 de Jim, N2EY
Quote[/b] (K3UD @ Oct. 04 2007,12:07)]
Quote[/b] ]I would also think that if someone reported a SK to the ARRL they probably also let the FCC know.
I don't think ARRL does that - because they can't.
I remember reading somewhere that both FCC and ARRL have pretty strict and clear rules about how an SK is to be reported to them in order for it to be official. Has to be a close family member or legal guardian, and certain official paperwork is needed. Apparently there were some not-so-funny practical jokes played. "Reports of my death are highly exaggerated" and all that.
We don't know how many SK hams are in the database, because unless people take the trouble to let FCC know in the official way, the license stays active for its entire term. The only incentive for anyone to tell FCC that a ham passed away is so that the SK's call can be freed up for someone else.
btw, note that the numbers posted on hamdata.com are considerably higher than the ones posted in this thread, because they include licenses which have expired but are in the 2 year grace period.
73 de Jim, N2EY
Quote[/b] (K3UD @ Oct. 04 2007,12:07)]If the FCC is not notified of the death the license still shows as active until the license is dropped from the rolls. I do not know of a way to begin to estimate how many SKs are still in the database. QST runs a list of silent keys every month and it can vary quite a bit. I would also think that if someone reported a SK to the ARRL they probably also let the FCC know.
73
George
K3UD
No, a silent key remains in the FCC data base regardless of whether a death notice was published in QST. My friend, W1US, died in March, was listed as a SK in QST a couple of months later, and he is still listed as an active licensee in the FCC data base. As his license does not expire until June 2016, he will be counted as a licensed operator until that time.
I guess he will be an inactive operator "with extreme prejudice". http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
W5HTW
10-05-2007, 11:39 PM
Quote[/b] (KE4TZI @ Oct. 05 2007,07:09)]Quote[/b] ] I’ll just say that I bet that if any one of you light up your rig sometime and ask if there is anyone out there monitoring that has never transmitted, you would probably be the first contact for a lot of hams.
There is a lot to be said for this statement. I Have been a ham for 13 years and hold a general class license. I passed 13 wpm code and have never used code or plan on using code.
My hf radio is ft920 which i have many hours of listening on and maybe 10 minutes of transmitting on. Most of what I hear said on the radio is what the doctor said is wrong with them and how they feel or who did what to who. Then You here the nets that come up and go down and you wonder what they were even about and last but not least you here some one contesting. So it is no wonder that there is not a lot of interest in our hobby. This is just my outlook on what I see.
Ed
So I ask you, are you an amateur radio operator, or an SWL? Seriously, the question is, why are you a ham? It doesn't please you. CW is different, but even there, even if you enjoyed it, you might not enjoy the folks you met. So I ask, what DO you listen to? Hams you don't like? Or shortwave broadcasting? Yes, I know this sounds facetious, but it is not meant that way. I'm really curious as to what you DO in ham radio that IS enjoyable. You don't seem to find any of it worth doing. Perhaps you build? Or teach others? What do you DO?
In other words, why are you an amateur radio operator?
"many hours of listening on" -- to what? Why?
Ed
n3ghx
10-06-2007, 02:51 AM
I'm curious why it is so important to track the numbers so closely or gripe about numbers not rising fast enough or in this case falling? Now it would seem to me that when the population of the USA doubles, why is it necessary for our ranks to double as our spectrum to use will also not double and never will? The radio spectrum is somewhat finite as it stands now and barring a big breakthrough in technology that allows much more use of the spectrum or better utilization of the microwave bands we are stuck in an ever increasing crowd of operators with a doubling of our ranks. In the past they saw the bands being chipped away at the same time the ranks had increased and there were a few technology breakthroughs as digital communications and sideband for voice allowed better use of our bands that are crowding. Try getting a 2 meter repeater frequency today in most areas with any kind of population. When the HF bands are running you have pileups on top of pileups because of the sheer numbers being crowded into a small spectrum area. Do I care if the ranks went down a few thousand. NO! I could see getting concerned if it gets cut in half as spectrum may be in danger. WHAT?! That happens anyway and is a constant fight regardless of our numbers even on the affected frequencies being considered for being taken from us.
In summary, why worry about the number of ARS operators as we need to worry more about keeping the fight for spectrum by other means because as the population grows so does the 'need' by other services increase and they don't care how many are already here on our amateur bands.
K0RGR
10-06-2007, 04:14 AM
Quote[/b] (KE4TZI @ Oct. 05 2007,07:09)]Quote[/b] ] I’ll just say that I bet that if any one of you light up your rig sometime and ask if there is anyone out there monitoring that has never transmitted, you would probably be the first contact for a lot of hams.
There is a lot to be said for this statement. I Have been a ham for 13 years and hold a general class license. I passed 13 wpm code and have never used code or plan on using code.
My hf radio is ft920 which i have many hours of listening on and maybe 10 minutes of transmitting on. Most of what I hear said on the radio is what the doctor said is wrong with them and how they feel or who did what to who. Then You here the nets that come up and go down and you wonder what they were even about and last but not least you here some one contesting. So it is no wonder that there is not a lot of interest in our hobby. This is just my outlook on what I see.
Ed
Let me share a word of advice -
Get off SSB - try PSK31 and/or RTTY. You will find plenty of folks who will be glad to 'text' with you. You will rarely, if ever, hear about their gall bladders. Serious interference is uncommon. You will find that as you have time to think, it is much easier to compose your thoughts and have a satisfying conversation. Also, if you happen to be young or female, your voice won't give you away.
CW filled this role for us old timers. And, for the Techs - you can use your computer to copy almost any machine-sent CW.
You can do this with an inexpensive computer interface, requiring very little setup on your radio.
kd5scf
10-06-2007, 10:11 AM
Wow..I leave here for a year and the griping still rules the board?..see you guys next year...(and you wonder why people leave)
n1dvj
10-06-2007, 10:32 AM
Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Oct. 05 2007,21:14)]Let me share a word of advice -
Get off SSB - try PSK31 and/or RTTY.
In years gone past, I think this was one of the most exciting areas for HAM radio. I can remember the first time I got my RS Model II to talk with a RTTY board. Or later the excitement of a TNC.
But then, I may be strange to begin with. I still remember the excitement I had way back in the summer of 79 when I got a defective board from a Novation/Cat modem and put the output high-level modulation transformer on it from a CB set and then tied it directly to the telephone wall jack. I ended up putting it in a wood-finish box with switches for everything, including an org-off-ans switch and had a 'direct connect' modem. I managed to fine ONE local phone call to a BBS (at Lehigh University) and every time I did anything, even if was just to see 'login:' on the screen amazed and thrilled me.
I had that with HAM radio like I mentioned above. back then. But now... It's kind of tough to feel the thrill when the 'process' of typing on a keyboard and seeing something from around the world on the screen is an everyday thing.
Now I get my thrill from building. I have a complete 2M radio downstairs that I built. Used it on the air a couple of times, now it's in the box. I built other things too, but with one notable exception they all seem to be used for a short time then retired. It's the thrill of building for me. And seeing it work. I can extend the thrill by enhancing it or making custom mods somewhat, but I still eventually tire of it.
The exception has been my K2. That's still on the shelf, I still use it, and think it's a really great rig. But even that has fallen out of the thrill stage although it hasn't been put away, as it's just still neet as a utility radio.
KB1SF
10-06-2007, 01:03 PM
[QUOTE=Quote ]Unless someone changes the paradigm, the ARS will fade away
Look at the numbers from the 1960s. I heard the same thing about amateur radio dying out back then. Didn't happen.
73 de Jim, N2EY
------------------------------
No, Jim, It IS happening! Our Service IS now (quite literally) dying.
The biggest difference between the "doomsday scenarios" of the 1960s and now is that the average age of a licensee in our Service these days is headed quite steadily "north" of age 60. For whatever reason, our Service is simply not attracting youngsters like we were in the mid 20th Century.
As an accredited examiner on both sides of the US/Canadian border, I can personally count on the fingers of one hand the number of under "twenty-somethings" I've administered tests to lately in either country. Rather, I'm seeing more and more retirees and people who used to be Hams but who let things lapse while they had careers and families.
I believe my 15-year-old daughter probably best illustrated the HUGE sustainability problem our Service now faces when I (once again) asked if she'd like to study and get her Ham license. To that question, she casually replied, "Why should I go through all that largely irrelevant licensing nonsense just so I can talk to a bunch of your old geezer friends?"
Sadly, while aging, baby boomer newcomers (or "retreads") to the hobby may sustain our Service for a little while longer, this ever expanding (and therefore largely self-perpetuating) "old geezer factor" in our current demographic does NOT bode well for our long-term growth and sustainability as a Radio Service.
Clearly, what we do (and the effort/reward equation associated with granting full access to what we do) has become unattractive to our youth. I believe a large part of that unattractiveness is directly due to the ARRL's and FCC's obsession with long-since outdated (so-called "incentive" or "earned") licensing requirements. These are license requirements that tie full access to our Service to a series of increasingly irrelevant "achievement tests" that have now become so completely out of touch with the technological, operational and social realities of a so-called "amateur" radio service in the 21st Century as to be laughable.
What's more, the young people of today now have FAR more "license free" (not to mention off-the-shelf) ways they can electronically communicate with their peers other than Ham Radio.
So, why, then are we STILL surprised when our youngsters express little interest in passing what they (correctly) perceive to be a series of ever-more irrelevant "achievement tests" that have little to do with the privileges they will actually be exercising as Hams?
This includes (but is not limited to) having to demonstrate a comprehensive knowledge of advanced RF theory in order to have the wonderfully "exclusive" privilege of then buying and operating a commercially manufactured radio. By extension, these tests also qualify them to intelligently discuss such advanced RF theory topics as to how some old fart's latest heart bypass surgery was performed.
What's more, to an ever-growing segment of our younger would-be Hams, the rewards a "full access" license in our Service grants clearly no longer directly relate to (nor do they justify) that which is required to attain them.
That is, when today's youngsters compare an Extra Class Ham license to other such government-issued licenses, the minimal requirements for that "full access" license in our Service go WELL beyond those minimally required to insure safe and courteous operation on our bands or in other fields.
Unlike the 1950's, where most of us had to build our own gear, these kids now have LOTS of other "plug and play" ways to electronically communicate with others IN THEIR OWN AGE GROUP worldwide. So why should they even bother beating their heads against the wall trying to get a "quaint" Ham ticket just so they can talk to the "old geezers" (their words) they now hear on our Ham bands?
Unless and until the effort/reward equation granting full access to our hobby is brought more into line with today's technological and social realities, our Service WILL continue to be increasingly unattractive to today's ever-more perceptive (and communication-choice-rich) youth. These young people are, like it or not, the next generation for our Service.
Or, to put it another way, unless and until the current overkill in the licensing structure for our Service changes in a real big hurry, our clearly dying Service WILL continue on down the road toward the dustbin of radio history.
73,
Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF
(Certified "old geezer")
I guess it is true the more we have the more we complain.......
W0DLR
10-06-2007, 06:44 PM
"any club officer's position by definition requires the trust of the members, which must be earned, not granted"
Earned....like in I had to learn morse code to earn a license now they should have to do that too.
New Hams do not have to bow and scrape to the oldtimers or earn anything, they just simply don't have to even mess with ham radio. Lot of them don't. Keep your earn attitude and you will see radio continue to go down hill. Look at the traffic nets, do you think they are necessary? If they have any traffic its only practice traffic. Face it friends, the old earn it ham radio is nothing more than a hobby now.
n6hpx
10-06-2007, 08:33 PM
For many out here the dropping of the morse requirements wasn't a victory but a disappointment in the system and as I mentioned to others its too soon to see if it will or won't increase our members..some will go away with bad feelings and many of those were one's who worked hard for the code and were proud of it..then there are those who say there cry babies for that but heck they had the right to feel it..as they earned it and worked hard to get there...the increase might only be one's who waited but who's to say...its a disappoint ment... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
KB1SF
10-06-2007, 10:46 PM
Quote[/b] (n6hpx @ Oct. 06 2007,13:33)]For many out here the dropping of the morse requirements wasn't a victory but a
disappointment in the system and as I mentioned to others its too soon to see if it will or won't increase our members..some will go away with bad feelings and many of those were one's who worked hard for the code and were proud of it..then there are those who say there cry babies for that but heck they had the right to feel it..as they earned it and worked hard to get there...the increase might only be one's who waited but who's to say...its a disappoint ment... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Actually, Larry, I think what's driven so many of the "Morse testing forever" crowd into such a tizzy over the FCC's decision to drop the Morse testing requirement is that the blatantly discriminatory Government "filters" they have all been relying on for so many years to keep the "riff raff" out (thereby institutionalizing their snobbery) are, one by one, going by the wayside.
That's because the US Government has now…officially… debunked ALL of their completely bogus "lid filter" arguments and are taking action to (finally) start undoing the mess they and their ARRL co-conspirators created years ago… turning a simple, basic competency test for a Ham Radio license into a semi-caste-like system of bandwidth and call-sign-based rewards that are STILL being parceled out for successfully completing an utterly superfluous (and therefore legally discriminatory) series of overly comprehensive, earned achievement tests.
In fact, today's FCC appears to now be (slowly) working a strategic plan that finally dismantles the remaining "hazing rituals" in the licensing system for our Service thereby bringing it back into compliance with the (far less achievement-oriented) ITU licensing guidelines. However, as I said, progress toward that goal remains agonizingly slow.
That's probably because many of the unwitting proponents of the FCC's so-called “incentive licensing” system who also bought into that particularly bogus bill of goods years ago are STILL frantically pressuring our regulators and lobby organizations (like the ARRL) to let them hang onto the last, tattered shreds of their institutionalized snobbery. I can certainly understand their feelings (even if I don’t agree with them) because, in many cases, incentive licensing is the only FCC licensing structure for our Service that many of the 50+ crowd (like me) have ever known.
I also know from my own experience how terribly frightening basic, structural change can be for some people, particularly for those whose only reason for getting up in the morning is a hobby like Amateur Radio.
However, as you have said, it’s still FAR too early to know whether these latest structural changes to our licensing system will be enough to start attracting a critical mass of youngsters to keep or Service viable well into the future, or whether these efforts are simply far too little (and/or way too late) to turn things around.
If I were a betting man (which I'm not) I'd probably be putting my money on the latter rather than the former.
That's because the lethal damage these clowns have wreaked upon our Service for the last 50 plus years with their stupid incentive licensing foolishness has already been largely done.
As a direct result, we are now well on our way to "exclusive clubbing" ourselves right out of existence.
73,
Keith
VA3KSF / KB1SF
ab1ga
10-06-2007, 11:19 PM
Quote[/b] (W0DLR @ Oct. 06 2007,13:44)]"any club officer's position by definition requires the trust of the members, which must be earned, not granted"
Earned....like in I had to learn morse code to earn a license now they should have to do that too.
New Hams do not have to bow and scrape to the oldtimers or earn anything, they just simply don't have to even mess with ham radio. #Lot of them don't. #Keep your earn attitude and you will see radio continue to go down hill. #Look at the traffic nets, do you think they are necessary? #If they have any traffic its only practice traffic. #Face it friends, the old earn it ham radio is nothing more than a hobby now.
No, I meant earned as in not a freebie, not granted because someone has a license, a pulse, or a chip on their shoulder.
This has nothing to do with learning CW or kowtowing to older ops. This has everything to do with standing up in front of a room full of men and women and saying "I would like to be an officer in your club, make decisions on your behalf, including decisions about how your dues are spent and how our group is seen by those outside it."
Do you honestly expect to be given that authority, that privilege, without question just because you have a ticket and you were born after a certain date? Does nobody have a right to question the integrity and ability of a relative stranger before giving them influence over an important part of their lives?
The net control position is not up for grabs, it requires skill and commitment, maybe a little patience. And lo! now nets are worthless, handling no valuable traffic. A response oozing with puerility.
Frankly, I don't give a sun-baked dam how many ham operators there are. If there are more, then I'll tuck in my elbows and make room for them. If the numbers decline, then there's more space on the bands. If bands get taken away, then I'll make do with what's left, because it will still be radio, and the thrill will still be there.
Ham radio is a hobby, and has always been a hobby, but forgive me if I don't understand why that means it has to be a minimalist intellectual activity, especially since ham radio has so much to offer the curious mind. But no, there continue to be some who view the suggestion that they read a book or make an effort to know about the laws of nature that directly influence the practice of their chosen avocation as an affront to their personal liberty. Pfui.
Passing an FCC exam yields a license to operate, not a respect voucher. Some ops will grant respect easily, while others are more demanding, and still others are plain unreasonable. Hams are no different from hunters, bowlers, or stamp collectors that way, or anyone else for that matter. Face it, that's their right, and you have to live with it even if you don't like it.
K1VSK
10-07-2007, 12:53 AM
Quote[/b] (kb1sf @ Oct. 06 2007,15:46)][Actually, Larry, I think what's driven so many of the "Morse testing forever" crowd into such a tizzy over the FCC's decision to drop the Morse testing requirement is that the blatantly discriminatory Government "filters" they have all been relying on for so many years to keep the "riff raff" out (thereby institutionalizing their snobbery) are, one by one, going by the wayside.
That's because the US Government has now…officially… debunked ALL of their completely bogus "lid filter" arguments and are taking action to (finally) start undoing the mess they and their ARRL co-conspirators created years ago… turning a simple, basic competency test for a Ham Radio license into a semi-caste-like system of bandwidth and call-sign-based "rewards" that are STILL being parceled out for successfully completing an utterly superfluous (and therefore legally discriminatory) series of overly comprehensive "earned achievement" tests.
In fact, today's FCC appears to now be (slowly) working a strategic plan that finally dismantles the remaining "hazing rituals" in the licensing system for our Service thereby bringing it back into compliance with the (far less achievement-oriented) ITU licensing guidelines. However, as I said, progress toward that goal remains agonizingly slow.
That's because many of the unwitting proponents of “incentive licensing” who also bought into that particularly bogus bill of goods years ago are STILL pressuring our regulators (and lobby organizations like the ARRL) to hang onto their dying dream of "exclusivity". #I certainly understand their feelings (even if I don’t agree with them) because, in many cases, “incentive licensing” is the only FCC licensing structure for our Service that many of the "50+ crowd" (like me) have ever known. #
I also know from my own experience how terribly frightening basic, structural change can be for some people, particularly for those whose only reason for getting up in the morning is a hobby like Amateur Radio.
However, as you have said, it’s still FAR too early to know whether these latest structural changes to our licensing system will be enough to start attracting a critical mass of youngsters to keep or Service viable well into the future, or whether these efforts are simply far too little (and/or way too late) to turn things around.
If I were a betting man (which I'm not) I'd probably be putting my money on the latter rather than the former.
That's because the lethal damage these clowns have wreaked upon our Service for the last 50 plus years with their stupid "incentive licensing" foolishness has already been largely done. #
As a direct result, we are now well on our way to "exclusive clubbing" ourselves right out of existence.
73,
Keith
VA3KSF / KB1SF
I read this a couple of times trying to figure out how one gets from a reward-for-effort based licensing structure to "blatantly discriminatory Government filters".
You argument seems to miss some fundamental issues not the least of which is a reasonable expectation that privilege requires at least a reasonable level of work to achieve any level of attainment.
Why would anyone be opposed to this?
KB1SF
10-07-2007, 04:45 AM
Quote[/b] (K1VSK @ Oct. 06 2007,17:53)]
You argument seems to miss some fundamental issues not the least of which is a reasonable expectation that privilege requires at least a reasonable level of work to achieve any level of attainment.
Why would anyone be opposed to this?[/QUOTE]
Don, all I'm advocating here is making the content and comprehensiveness of our exams for the Amateur Service commensurate and relevant to the privileges granted.
Today, the international regulations that define our Service comprise just one and a half double spaced pages. The ITU guidelines for license examinations in our Service comprise another page or two. Yet, even today, the FCC…in its infinite wisdom…STILL seems to believe that we Hams were so incredibly stupid that we need some 60 plus pages of single-spaced, "Mother may I?" gobbledygook in Part 97 to define and regulate ourselves in the United States of America.
And I do NOT believe a government-sponsored, taxpayer supported institution like the Amateur Radio Service should also be used as a vehicle to "force-feed" complex RF theory (by US government decree) down the throat of every person who wishes to now partake of all that our great hobby has to offer.
That's because there are any number of wonderful technical schools, colleges and universities in our country that do an absolutely superb job of such things…and they can do so far more efficiently and effectively WITHOUT resorting to such fake, US government-imposed "incentives".
Or, to put it another way, requiring ordinary people to have the equivalent of an undergraduate degree in Electrical Engineering in order to have full frequency privileges (passing the "Extra Class" exam) in the PUBLIC Amateur Radio Service is not only needless overkill, but it runs completely counter to the basis, purpose and intent of our Service internationally.
Historically, such over-regulation in our Service in the United States wasn't always the case. Indeed, in the early years of our Service, Amateurs were free to roam the airwaves at will without ANY regulation or license. And, even after our Service began to be regulated in the early 1900s, then Secretary of Commerce Herbert Hoover defined an "Amateur" in our Service as simply a person "who operates a radio station, transmitting or receiving, or both, without pay or commercial gain, merely for personal interest or in connection with an organization of like interest."
Please note that NOWHERE in that definition does it say anything about "creating a trained pool of communications experts and technicians". And, indeed, in its early years our Service was regarded not so much for the technical prowess of our membership (which was impressive, even WITHOUT a formalized licensing system), but for our ability to quickly and successfully relay third-party messages from one point to another.
Thankfully, as I've said, today's FCC is now (finally) starting to undo what the ARRL and their own bureaucratic predecessors set in motion in the late 1950s when they turned what was then a simple, basic competency test for a Ham Radio license into an unneeded series of ever more irrelevant achievement tests.
Back then, they called it “incentive licensing”. And, as I've said, many of the unwitting proponents of that foolishness who ALSO bought into the ARRL’s fraudulent bill of goods years ago are STILL trying their level best to hang onto that dying dream. This fact is clearly evident by all the passionate comments expressed here and elsewhere about keeping Morse testing alive, along with all the wails of protest about the apparent "dumbing down" of the licensing system for our Service.
Unfortunately, what such people STILL don't fully understand (or refuse to admit) is that our licensing system was arbitrarily "dumbed UP" in the late 1950s by the ARRL and the FCC when they added reams and reams of needless overkill into the testing requirements for full participation in our Service.
Fortunately, most of the other countries in the world never bought into any of this nonsense. As a result, throughout most of the rest of the world, Amateur licenses are regarded simply as “certificates of safety" and the Amateur Service is largely regulated by bandwidth, NOT by license class and operating mode as it is here in the United States. Needless to say, the former approach provides those administrations with a great deal more flexibility than we now have to change regulations and permitted emission types as the technology changes.
Unfortunately, thanks largely to the FCC's arcane incentive licensing approach, OUR frequency and regulated sub-band allocations still largely reflect Amateur Radio technology as it was in the late 1950s. Talk about the "dumbing down" of our Service!
What's more, in other countries, the safety issue of power output (vice frequency and operating mode) is often the central factor that differentiates one license class from another. Outside of the United States, Amateur Radio licenses are usually officially viewed as "licenses to learn" rather than as a series of backward looking (not to mention elitist) "badges of honor" that one has successfully endured a series of arcane hazing rituals along with assorted (and completely irrelevant) "rights of passage". Also, requiring the memorization and regurgitation of seldom (if ever) used information in exchange for ego-based "rewards" of "exclusive" frequency and operating mode privileges plus the opportunity to obtain a so-called "exclusive" call sign are all but absent in most other country's licensing systems for our Service.
The bottom line here is that most of rest of the world's Amateur Radio licensees are NOT tied to a set of silly (not to mention increasingly meaningless (and therefore legally discriminatory)) achievement tests in a licensing system that looks for all the world like the FCC's version of the Boy Scouts of America…complete with the requirement to earn a specified number of "merit badges" before being allowed to progress on to the next "class".
Fortunately, and based on their regulatory actions in our Service over the last 20 years (including their latest decision to drop all forms of Morse testing), it's absolutely clear the FCC has (finally!) recognized what a horrific mess their predecessors made of our licensing and regulatory system when they hatched their stupid "license-class-and-operating-mode-based" incentive nonsense back in the 1950s. My hunch is that the FCC has also now realized that the licensing system that resulted from those sweeping regulatory changes in our licensing system (changes which have been left largely intact for the last half century) have now created FAR more "disincentives" than "incentives" for young people to join and then remain active in our Service.
As a direct result of that realization, I firmly believe the FCC has now embarked on a plan that will largely de-regulate our Service, allowing it to revert back to the time when our licensing system was simply comprised of safety-based and forward-looking "licenses to learn" rather than a meaningless series of ego-stroking "rewards" tied to an ever-more irrelevant, backward looking set of achievement tests.
All of which means that incentive licensing, as we knew it, is probably now deader than a doornail. It just hasn't fallen over yet.
73,
Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF
So much for the apprehensive, "waiting-in-the-wings" hoards jumping on the "no-code" testing bandwagon. It didn't happen and won't happen soon.
Progressive Keith keeps pining for the day when "ham" licenses are forked over by the FCC simply through the filling out of a form -- akin to the CB days of old. It's is sad that bright, progressive folks like Keith cannot understand that "giving licenses away" won't work either.
Amateur Radio will never be "popular" like the CB band of old. It is/was never meant to be.
Being 41 years old, I'll be sure to turn propagation's lights out when the aging baby-boomer hams die off in greater numbers -- leaving the bands a vast wasteland.
That reminds me, I better get my CW contacts logged and awards coming before it's too late...
73.
Quote[/b] (kb1sf @ Oct. 06 2007,06:03)]
Quote[/b] ][QUOTE=Quote ]Unless someone changes the paradigm, the ARS will fade away
Look at the numbers from the 1960s. I heard the same thing about amateur radio dying out back then. Didn't happen.
73 de Jim, N2EY
Quote[/b] ]The biggest difference between the "doomsday scenarios" of the 1960s and now is that the average age of a licensee in our Service these days is headed quite steadily "north" of age 60.
Where did this "average age" figure come from? How was it derived?
Is it the median (half are above and half are below)? Or maybe the mean (add up all the ages and divide by the number of hams)? Or something else?
At various times, FCC has required date-of-birth information. But that policy has changed over time, so the license database contains DOB info on some, but not all, US hams, depending on when they were first licensed. So the FCC license database is not a reliable sample or source.
Some folks look at the attendanys of hamfests and radio club meetings, see a preponderance of older folks and conclude that ham radio is "dying".
The problem with using such observations is that they
are not reliable samples either. For example, the hams
you see at gatherings are those who have the time,
interest and resources to go to them. The younger
amateur who is raising children, taking care of elders,
busy with a career or education, etc., is much less likely
to go to a hamfest or club meeting.
Similar concerns go with on-air observations. The younger
ham with a car full of children is less likely to be operating mobile, for example. The ham with a 60-hour-per-week day job is not likely to be on the air at 2 PM on a weekday. Etc.
What was the "average age" of an amateur in the 1960s?
Quote[/b] ]For whatever reason, our Service is simply not attracting youngsters like we were in the mid 20th Century.
Perhaps. How many did we really get in the 1960s?
I graduated from high school in 1972. In a school of over
2500 boys I was the only entering freshman that was a
ham. There were never more then half a dozen licensed
hams in the school the whole time I was there.
Quote[/b] ]As an accredited examiner on both sides of the US/Canadian border, I can personally count on the fingers of one hand the number of under "twenty-somethings" I've administered tests to lately in either country. Rather, I'm seeing more and more retirees and people who used to be Hams but who let things lapse while they had careers and families.
That trend isn't new - it's been going on since the 1970s,
when repeaters became the big New Thing. Not only
"retreads" but people who always wanted to be hams but
never had the resources until the kids were grown and gone. the career climb slowed down, the house was fixed up, etc.
Quote[/b] ]I believe my 15-year-old daughter probably best illustrated the HUGE sustainability problem our Service now faces when I (once again) asked if she'd like to study and get her Ham license. To that question, she casually replied, "Why should I go through all that largely irrelevant licensing nonsense just so I can talk to a bunch of your old geezer friends?"
Sure - that's *one* data point. And your influence is clear there!
The core of amateur radio is and has always been "radio for its own sake". Radio as an end in itself, not as a means to other ends. Some people "get it", others don't. Been that way forever.
"The medium, not the message"
The first question most people ask when they find out about ham radio is usually "what do you talk about?" That's a clue they don't really "get it" - that their focus is
on the message and not the medium.
It is the few who understand the difference who will be hams.
Quote[/b] ]Sadly, while aging, baby boomer newcomers (or "retreads") to the hobby may sustain our Service for a little while longer, this ever expanding (and therefore largely self-perpetuating) "old geezer factor" in our current demographic does NOT bode well for our long-term growth and sustainability as a Radio Service.
Why not? There are always more people coming along.
People are living longer today. More important, they are staying active longer.
Look at the age-demographics of the USA (and Canada) as a whole and you'll see that people are not only living longer, they're having fewer kids and having them later in life. A lot of people are having no kids at all, or just one, a far cry from when I was a kid and anything less then 5 children was "a small family".
Not just "boomers" (born 1946-1964) but everyone.
The 2000 census revealed that the median age of Americans counted in the census increased almost 5 years from 1990 to 2000. From about 34 to about 39. That was seven years ago.
Since there are only a handful of licensed amateurs under about 12 years of age, we'd expect the median age of hams to be even higher (50 something) if they were distributed the same as the general population.
Quote[/b] ]Clearly, what we do (and the effort/reward equation associated with granting full access to what we do) has become unattractive to our youth.
I disagree.
"What we do" has never been very attractive to youth or any other age group. Just look at the numbers for the percentage of population that were licensed hams all through the 20th century. For a clearer picture, look at the reciprocal of the fraction and you'll see things like 1 in 600-700 people was a ham in a certain era that was supposedly a "golden age".
Quote[/b] ]I believe a large part of that unattractiveness is directly due to the ARRL's and FCC's obsession with long-since outdated (so-called "incentive" or "earned") licensing requirements. These are license requirements that tie full access to our Service to a series of increasingly irrelevant "achievement tests" that have now become so completely out of touch with the technological, operational and social realities of a so-called "amateur" radio service in the 21st Century as to be laughable.
You're presuming your conclusion.
The licenses are now easy to get and the whole process very simple. Licensing isn't going away, either - even if the three-level system in the USA were reduced to a single class, there would be licenses and tests for them.
Do you think people should be allowed on the ham bands without licenses? Or that licenses should simply be issued without testing? We've seen how well *THAT* worked out!
Quote[/b] ]What's more, the young people of today now have FAR more "license free" (not to mention off-the-shelf) ways they can electronically communicate with their peers other than Ham Radio.
No young person I knew ever got a ham license to communicate with their peers. Not one.
We 1960s kids had the telephone. Sure, there was only one in the house and it wasn't a cell, but we kept in touch. We also spent a lot of time with our peers. Some
kids I knew got cb radios for the purpose - there were far more cb-equipped young people then than hams. But they rapidly lost interest in cb.
Quote[/b] ]So, why, then are we STILL surprised when our youngsters express little interest in passing what they (correctly) perceive to be a series of ever-more irrelevant "achievement tests" that have little to do with the privileges they will actually be exercising as Hams?
This includes (but is not limited to) having to demonstrate a comprehensive knowledge of advanced RF theory in order to have the wonderfully "exclusive" privilege of then buying and operating a commercially manufactured radio. By extension, these tests also qualify them to intelligently discuss such advanced RF theory topics as to how some old fart's latest heart bypass surgery was performed.
So what *would* be relevant to a license test?
And if you think what's on the exams is "advanced RF theory", I suggest you take another look at what's really on the exams.
Quote[/b] ]That is, when today's youngsters compare an Extra Class Ham license to other such government-issued licenses, the minimal requirements for that "full access" license in our Service go WELL beyond those minimally required to insure safe and courteous operation on our bands or in other fields.
So what do you suggest?
Quote[/b] ]Unlike the 1950's, where most of us had to build our own gear, these kids now have LOTS of other "plug and play" ways to electronically communicate with others IN THEIR OWN AGE GROUP worldwide. So why should they even bother beating their heads against the wall trying to get a "quaint" Ham ticket just so they can talk to the "old geezers" (their words) they now hear on our Ham bands?
Unless and until the effort/reward equation granting full access to our hobby is brought more into line with today's technological and social realities, our Service WILL continue to be increasingly unattractive to today's ever-more perceptive (and communication-choice-rich) youth. These young people are, like it or not, the next generation for our Service.
Or, to put it another way, unless and until the current overkill in the licensing structure for our Service changes in a real big hurry, our clearly dying Service WILL continue on down the road toward the dustbin of radio history.
In the 1960s there were about 230,000 US hams, most of whom were using manufactured equipment.
Today there are over 655,000 US hams, most of whom are using manufactured equipment.
But not all of them.
http://hometown.aol.com/n2ey/myhomepage/
So what's new?
As for "beating their heads against the wall", the license requirements are simply not that hard and never were.
The truth is that the license requirements aren't really the issue. The changes in 2000, and the recent dropping of the Morse Code test, have proven that competely.
The key is not to try to sell Amateur Radio as a means to an end, but as an end in itself. Most won't get it, some will.
Part of that, I think, is to focus *more*, not less, on the technology and the homebrew/kit options.
What changes, exactly, do you propose? Specifics, not generalities.
73 de Jim, N2EY
53 back in April
40 years a ham this week
NOT a "geezer"
Quote[/b] (kb1sf @ Oct. 06 2007,15:46)]
Quote[/b] ]
Actually, Larry, I think what's driven so many of the "Morse testing forever" crowd into such a tizzy over the FCC's decision to drop the Morse testing requirement is that the blatantly discriminatory Government "filters" they have all been relying on for so many years to keep the "riff raff" out (thereby institutionalizing their snobbery) are, one by one, going by the wayside.
"blatantly discriminatory"? How so?
As for "snobbery" - it's not snobbery to require and
recognize a certain level of achievement - in anything.
Quote[/b] ]That's because the US Government has now…officially… debunked ALL of their completely bogus "lid filter" arguments and are taking action to (finally) start undoing the mess they and their ARRL co-conspirators created years ago… turning a simple, basic competency test for a Ham Radio license into a semi-caste-like system of bandwidth and call-sign-based rewards that are STILL being parceled out for successfully completing an utterly superfluous (and therefore legally discriminatory) series of overly comprehensive, earned achievement tests.
No test can be a perfect "lid filter" - particularly when it's a one-time test that, once passed, is essentially good forever. That doesn't mean testing serves no purpose.
Quote[/b] ]In fact, today's FCC appears to now be (slowly) working a strategic plan that finally dismantles the remaining "hazing rituals" in the licensing system for our Service thereby bringing it back into compliance with the (far less achievement-oriented) ITU licensing guidelines. However, as I said, progress toward that goal remains agonizingly slow.
What would *you* do, specifically?
Quote[/b] ]That's probably because many of the unwitting proponents of the FCC's so-called “incentive licensing” system who also bought into that particularly bogus bill of goods years ago are STILL frantically pressuring our regulators and lobby organizations (like the ARRL) to let them hang onto the last, tattered shreds of their institutionalized snobbery.
The changes known as "incentive licensing" went into effect almost 40 years ago. Nobody who is at FCC today had anything to do with them.
They were actually not something new at all. They were a *return* to a system that was put in place in 1951, and to principles that go back even further.
It is not hazing to reward greater achievement (not effort - achievement) with greater rewards.
Quote[/b] ]I can certainly understand their feelings (even if I don’t agree with them) because, in many cases, incentive licensing is the only FCC licensing structure for our Service that many of the 50+ crowd (like me) have ever known.
I'm 53 and have been a ham since 1967. I remember what ham radio was like before the changes of 1968-69. I also know why those changes came about.
Quote[/b] ]I also know from my own experience how terribly frightening basic, structural change can be for some people, particularly for those whose only reason for getting up in the morning is a hobby like Amateur Radio.
Some changes are good, some changes aren't. Expecting people to embrace change without clearly showing them why the change is good is asking them to be irrational.
Quote[/b] ]If I were a betting man (which I'm not) I'd probably be putting my money on the latter rather than the former.
That's because the lethal damage these clowns have wreaked upon our Service for the last 50 plus years with their stupid incentive licensing foolishness has already been largely done.
Let's look at the facts:
The changes commonly known as "incentive licensing" took effect in November 1968 and 1969 - almost 40 years ago, not 50 plus years ago. The folks you call "clowns" were the folks at FCC who enacted the changes.
From early 1953 until late 1968, all US hams except Novices and Technicians had all operating privileges. The Novice was a short-term learner's permit and the Tech was VHF/UHF only.
The growth in US ham radio from the end of WW2 until the early 1960s was very good. During the mid-to-late 1960s it all but disappeared, and in some years there was actual decline. This under the old system of Generals-get-it-all.
Then in the early 1970s, when the incentive licensing tests and rules were the toughest, the growth took off
again. All through the '70s, '80s and early '90s we got
more and more hams, at a rate that exceeded the growth in the US population.
"Lethal damage", huh?
It's only in recent years that the growth has dried up.
73 de Jim, N2EY
Thank god im a DXer, this seems to be centered only on US hams (who still have more hams than any nation on earth)...even with the poopy conditions, i still hear a lot of DX, young DX ops too...at least my age, 30's to 40's.
While we lament the good-old-days-gone-by, DX ops still find ham radio relevant...i still find what ham radio originally was, DXing with CW, to be just as relevant as ever. If all you guys fade away, all the repeaters fall silent and become scrap metal, all the orange vests and light bars go dark, eHam and QRZ fold because all hams in the US die off and not one single living soul in the states can even remember the definition of ham radio and the US simply runs out of hams, FINALLY i will be the rare DX.
Odd, when i look at it that way, ham radio's future looks great from here! seriously you guys, even if the numbers drop off heavily, we just wont have as huge of numbers as before...is this what everyone is scared of? maybe its our inability to figure out how to be important to the american public again, or how we can be the apple of the emergency services eye again, perhaps its the inevitable changes that all but a few select things in the world must go through. i dont know, but considering this is my hobby i will try to enjoy it. i also dont see the enjoyable art/hobby of using a radio device of some kind to talk to another hobbyist somewhere else ever completely dying out...even if it comes down to just a handful of hams left in the world who also grow old and die off, ill be one of them...lets enjoy this thing while we have it.
If we try to force our version of enjoyment onto our kids and grandkids, we will drive them away further. lets face it, American kids are bored and way too overstimulated with electronic toys and devices, we just dont measure up...no matter how many arguments i can make to the contrary, no matter how advanced our gear really is. its the perception of ham radio, even the name itself, that keeps kids away. when you say "ham radio" to a modern teenager and ask them what comes to mind, they will think of old men who smell like bengay talking about their goiters, or overweight geeks with mesh ballcaps covered in rubber duckie antennas, wearing huge glasses and moustaches with hazard vests, milkshakes and shorts that are way too tight...no self respecting kid will become a part of that based on percieved image alone, even if its unfair....ive actually heard this before.
Next, all they have to do is go online to find out about us if they are interested...new kid looking for information about ham radio runs across one of these forums? #game over....even Drew Carey made fun of us as geeks....Drew Carey!! its true, cellphones, PSP's, iPods, laptops, Blackberrys and GPS units to name a few are par for this course, we are the outsiders no matter how advanced our gear becomes, and our attitudes are much to blame. nobody wants to join a fraternity that cant agree on anything, not to mention a serious lack of ability to increase their cool factor with their friends...so that leaves us the geeks. the smart kids in school who dont really focus on any cool factor, do you think he is looking for a fight? nope, he is trying to avoid them...he probably gets enough of that at school, why would he want to join a hobby that is wrought with infighting?
These are just ideas, you will all disagree with me as i expect and again, we will have a hard time finding common ground. one of our biggest infections in the hobby, in my opinion, is a serious lack of hams taking joy in just being hams, getting on the air and having fun...THAT is what sold me 25 years ago, the fellowship, hams gathering at friends shacks and cooking and operating, the internet was still an infant...coincidence?
Ever notice that people are barraged by fake everything today, pitches and ads and all sorts of means to reach an end result? increasingly, people look for anything to just be pure and simple, young folks still like a challenge if it looks appealing...if they see a mysterious sub-genre simply having fun and working together across the board, they will become curious. In reality, most see infighting and that does not represent the magic and old school charm of ham radio...it does, however, highlight how out of date we are in their minds.
Decreasing numbers should definately start with a good look at our own perceptions of ourselves and what we really want this hobby to grow into, so what do we do now?
As for me, as long as i can still obtain some form of operating permit from whatever governing body my country has in charge of that sort of thing...i will still get on the air and speak with hams in other parts of the world. But overall, ham radio is in trouble, for what i do in ham radio, its still ok, in fact, it will get even better as the conditions improve. I have the ability to change, roll with the punches, but so does this hobby by itself. However, i question if many of the practicioners of this hobby have that ability. Im not the only one who has noticed a distinct sense of fear of things changing and not staying exactly the way the good old days were...it will never happen, things change and those who dont change with the tides will fade away. Take joy in your hobby, lamenting on US ham stats is not enjoying the hobby...nor is it helping the numbers. changing our outward appearance (im not talking about physical appearance, keep your mesh hat, orange vest and milkshakes and burgers...be yourself), im speaking of how happy we look as a whole, as a family.
Ask anyone in marketing or management of any kind...negativity is death, and death is inevitable. we dont get a second chance at this life, but we can change our attitudes....if you want to. unfortunately, i dont see a stampede in that direction among our ranks, too proud i guess. Im sitting good, you guys lament some more about this....im going back to chasing 9U0A...i havent worked them yet, theres only a couple of days left for them, my option is to change my approach and try new tactics. it usually works...hint hint.
._._.
73...Adam, N7YA
KB1SF
10-07-2007, 11:14 PM
Quote[/b] (N2EY @ Oct. 07 2007,05:48)]Do you think people should be allowed on the ham bands without licenses? Or that licenses should simply be issued without testing? We've seen how well *THAT* worked out!
Absolutely Not!
For, unless and until the ITU's Radio Regulations are changed by a consensus of the US and many other countries in the world, the FCC has no choice but to follow the those regulations for the Amateur Service in the matter. And those regulations leave absolutely no doubt that Amateurs are to be both tested AND licensed before being granted access to our bands.
Once again, Jim, all I'm advocating here is making the content and comprehensiveness of our FCC exams commensurate with (and directly tied to) the privileges granted.
For example, in Canada (as in many other countries in the world) the top license (their Advanced Certificate) requires the successful passage of a very technical, 50-question exam.
But, in exchange for passing it, Canadian Hams are given a very small number of some very specific additional privileges that are FAR more commensurate with the material examined. These include being able to build transmitters "from scratch", run a KW of power (vice 250 Watts), or be the licensee of a club or repeater station.
Clearly, the latter pursuits involve a great deal more potential risk of physical harm to either one's self or to others (running high power), or are activities with much greater probabilities of causing harmful interference to others on the Ham bands or other services (building transmitters from scratch or running a repeater).
And, quite naturally, in Canada one has to also have an Advanced Certificate in order to give exams to others along with a Morse endorsement on their licenses in order to do so. This logic, too, makes perfect sense because how can one administer and grade a (now optional) Morse test to a candidate if you, yourself, don't know Morse?
By contrast, in the United States, unless a person is already an RF engineer, a candidate for an Extra Class license must STILL plow through hundreds and hundreds of pages of technical gobbledygook in a license manual and then pass a 50-question exam. In return, they are given "exclusive" access to the last few KHz of spectrum space in our Service and the opportunity to have an "exclusive" call sign. Most US Hams would be shocked (and probably angered) to learn that these are all privileges that are ROUTINELY granted to the rest of the world's Hams for completing significantly LESS comprehensive exams.
Also, what is conspicuous by its absence in Canada (and elsewhere in the world) are all the sub-bands (and sub-sub bands) that form the major part of the reward system for incentive licensing in the United States.
NOWHWERE else in the world are our bands as carved up as they are in the United States! That's because, in the ITU regulations and throughout most of the the rest of the world, our Service has been regulated for decades predominantly by BANDWIDTH, and NOT by license class or operating mode.
I've always found it ironic that the FCC routinely grants ANYYONE who successfully gets a license in the Amateur Service (including "wet behind the ears" Technician Class operators) the HUGE privilege of running a full kilowatt of power, and building anything and everything (including high power transmitters and amplifiers) "from scratch" right from day one.
It apparently doesn't matter to our FCC that such privileges create very real (spelled: "lethal") RF shock, burn and exposure hazards to licensees, their families and their neighbors as well as create the very real potential to cause harmful interference to other licensees in the Amateur as well as other radio services.
On the other hand, the US Extra Class examination does nothing more than reward "exclusive" access to "exclusive" frequencies and call signs. It has precious little to do with the applicant demonstrating an understanding of any added operational, harmful interference or safety needs commensurate with the increased operating privileges it grants.
Indeed, BECAUSE the primary purpose of the Extra Class license IS to grant such elite "exclusivity", all it really does is enable and then underwrite all the "I'm better than you" snobbery and blatant bigotry that is STILL clearly present in our Service in the United States. This concept, too, has absolutely no underlying basis in the ITU regulations.
It has often been said that one gets the behavior one rewards. Could it be that at least part of the "I'm better than you" and malicious interference problems we've been plagued with on some of our bands as of late (a good chunk of it caused (sadly) by Extra Class licensees) is precisely BECAUSE the FCC has been rewarding such snobbery all these years in our licensing system?
We only need to read some of the recent items posted here on this thread to see that blatant bigotry at work. What's more, what many of us "oldsters" don't seem to realize is that such snobbery is an absolute turn off for most young people today.
So, while it's nice to think that maintaining (or even "bolstering") the FCC's testing standards will improve things, I'm absolutely convinced it will simply hasten our demise as a Service. All that will do is drive more interested newcomers away…newcomers who are ALREADY voting with their feet in droves and who have been doing so in ever-increasing numbers over the last few years.
In fact, I firmly believe it is precisely BECAUSE our licensing system is still stuck in the technological and sociological "snob era" of the 1950s and 1960s (and has now become so out of touch with today's society) that our ranks are now shrinking at an ever-faster pace.
Jim, as you so eloquently noted with your first post on this thread, it is an irrefutable fact that the number of Amateur Radio licensees hasn't grown in the United States since 2003. And that trend shows absolutely no sign of reversing anytime soon.
What's more, as the FCC's licensing data is on a 10-year cycle, who knows how many more Hams have since "voted with their feet" and have left Amateur Radio entirely? Other than listening to the dead air on our bands, we won't know exactly how many folks have made such a decision for at least another 10 years.
It's also now painfully obvious that all the "snob appeal" built into our current licensing structure is no longer a motivator for most people to join our ranks and then upgrade all the way to Extra Class. Otherwise, why have nearly half of all US Hams (some 40 percent) never even bothered to upgrade beyond the Technician li