Winlink this weekend

[kc7gnm]

With the ARRL SET happening this weekend you can be sure that there will be plenty of winlids on the air. What we will need is monitors to make sure these lids don't crash ongoing QSO's. I will be monitoring 14.105 lsb for lids. I will also be doing some packet work as well.

[NN4RH]

Haven't you read the "It Seems To Us" column in QST this month?

Winlink is essential for interoperability nirvana, that will save us all from Katrinas and terrorists.

[N5PVL]

It seems to me that the ARRL should be rooting out interference sources, not rooting for them.

[kc7gnm]

Quote[/b] (NN4RH @ Oct. 04 2007,06:24)]Haven't you read the "It Seems To Us" column in QST this month?

Winlink is essential for interoperability nirvana, that will save us all from Katrinas and terrorists.
LOL and I have some land down in Florida I will sell ya. The ARRL has hooked its whole existence on EMCOMM which is only a small portion of amateur radio. Ham radio is a hobby but it is turning commercial with the likes of winlink. The winlink lids are using EMCOMM to justify their existance when there are much more efficient ways to send messages than over HF. We will be having a local SET here in my county and I am willing to bet that winlink will be used. What that means is every county in every state is gonna be clogging up the bands this weekend with winlid traffic. Some of the guys on here thought the RTTY ops were bad just wait till they see winlink in action. There will be so much pactor on the bands that you won't be able to get a word in edgewise.

Yeah you are right about the ARRL. Almost as bad as the libs blaming Bush for Katrina and terrorism.

[N5PVL]

Here we are on Friday... - Is this the weekend in question?

[kc7gnm]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Oct. 05 2007,16:49)]Here we are on Friday... - Is this the weekend in question?
Yep sure is. The SET is scheduled for tomorrow.

[NN4RH]

Wow. Look at the crowds at this ARRL emergency communications demonstration at the US capital!

"When All Else Fails" (http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2007/10/05/100/?nc=1)

[KC9JIQ]

Quote[/b] (NN4RH @ Oct. 05 2007,16:42)]Wow. Look at the crowds at this ARRL emergency communications demonstration at the US capital!

"When All Else Fails" (http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2007/10/05/100/?nc=1)
we were not invited. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[AG3Y]

I see our congressman Roscoe got out to see the action! Must have been on his lunch break . I have no idea whether he is a ham or not. He has never mentioned it, if he is, that I am aware of .


http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif 73, Jim

[kc7gnm]

Quote[/b] (NN4RH @ Oct. 05 2007,19:42)]Wow. Look at the crowds at this ARRL emergency communications demonstration at the US capital!

"When All Else Fails" (http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2007/10/05/100/?nc=1)
Notice how the ARRL highlights and links winlink. Another piece of evidence that the ARRL is tied to the winlink organization big time.

[N5PVL]

No activity noted on 14.098. There was one WinLinker polling for WB0TAX, but that's about par for the course on a saturday.

[kc7gnm]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Oct. 06 2007,19:27)]No activity noted on 14.098. There was one WinLinker polling for WB0TAX, but that's about par for the course on a saturday.
Surprisingly there was not much interference on 14.105 lsb. Maybe these guys are getting the hint and avoiding those two pmbo's like the plague now.

[N5PVL]

Either that, or there wasn't much on the air activity during the exercise, just internet simulations.

[kc7gnm]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Oct. 06 2007,22:27)]Either that, or there wasn't much on the air activity during the exercise, just internet simulations.
Well there was plenty on our local repeater here. I didn't participate because I wanted to monitor 14.105. There was plenty of packet activity though.

[K0RGR]

From the article, it looked like the scenario involved a relatively small section of the eastern seaboard, so 20 probably wouldn't have been optimum, anyway. But it looks like it was mostly MARS doing the WINLINK work, which would have been on military frequencies, not ours.

It's looking more and more like those who want to do radio in disasters should be getting into MARS. It will require a lot more activity and training than ARES usually does, though. My dad was heavily into Air Force MARS, and I've thought about joining but never really had the time before. I'm not even sure which MARS organization is the best one around here.

[KC2PBJ]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Oct. 04 2007,07:23)]It seems to me that the ARRL should be rooting out interference sources, not rooting for them.
ARRL is only good for rooting dollars out of the pocket of amateur radio operators. Besides, its all a conspiracy to put a no-code tech in the White House in twelve years. Did you really think all those dollars really went into that wall of bricks?

[ne3r]

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Oct. 09 2007,15:57)]From the article, it looked like the scenario involved a relatively small section of the eastern seaboard, so 20 probably wouldn't have been optimum, anyway. But it looks like it was mostly MARS doing the WINLINK work, which would have been on military frequencies, not ours.

It's looking more and more like those who want to do radio in disasters should be getting into MARS. It will require a lot more activity and training than ARES usually does, though. My dad was heavily into Air Force MARS, and I've thought about joining but never really had the time before. I'm not even sure which MARS organization is the best one around here.
Hey, I was there, but no picture of me. There was ham winlink and MARS winlink. I'm not a big fan of winlink myself, but it seems to make good sense to be used on MARS, where specific frequencies can be assigned for such a task. The concept of winlink isn't all bad, being able to send and check e-mail via ham bands can be quite useful. Where winlink goes wrong is pactor3, a mode we all know doesn't play well with anything else. Plain old packet will accomplish the same goal. I bet some smart folks could do something similar with PSK31.

Congressman Bartlett isn't a ham, but there was a ham in congress that actually got on the air. Interestingly enough, it was the MARS folks that put him on the ham bands, not the league. I don't know why. I stayed in the Sothern Baptist Disaster Releif communications trailer (W3MDB) most of the time with the 2 meter rig (70cm on the mall is a mess BTW) and listened a bit to 40 meters, which was the band that they were operating on. Pudge, W4LTX was sort of the setup guy for this, which started out as a MARS thing, but the ARRL got involved somehow, he works for Bartlett, and is a pretty good guy.

I think it is a plus for ham radio to be setup there on the mall in front of congress, at least the know it still exists! Fortunately, winlink wasn't the showcase of the event http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.

73 de Joe NE3R

[n0nwo]

deleted post

[ne3r]

Quote[/b] (kc7gnm @ Oct. 03 2007,21:37)]With the ARRL SET happening this weekend you can be sure that there will be plenty of winlids on the air. What we will need is monitors to make sure these lids don't crash ongoing QSO's. I will be monitoring 14.105 lsb for lids. I will also be doing some packet work as well.
I sent one piece of traffic to winlink (they call it WL2K on the net here in Maryland). Of course, I don't run winlink myself, I had to pass it on one of the regular traffic nets so that someone could take it from there.

If I had an SCS modem, I'd put it to use tracking lids http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

73 de Joe NE3R

[K0RGR]

Oddly enough, there is alternative to WINLINK now, PSKMAil...

[N5PVL]

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Oct. 10 2007,21:01)]Oddly enough, there is alternative to WINLINK now, PSKMAil...

HF eMail:

The first eMail over ham radio setup was HF Packet. It went through a brief period of popularity before the legal problems stacked up to the point where each eMail transiting the system had to be manually scanned for inappropriate content.

The hams who provided the service got tired of putting in all of that time reading other people's eMail, and one by one, the services disappeared within a few years.

All except WinLink, which did something different. Their approach was to abandon Packet for PACTOR, which could not be easily monitored like Packet. - They would thus hide the content of the eMail from peer review.

Who cares if it's illegal then, right?

They also abandoned Packet's ( and the internet's ) advanced Semi-Meshed network design for a throwback to the 70's, the inefficient and failure-prone STAR network design. The reason for this great step backward is that it also eliminated peer review, since all traffic in a STAR network must transit a central server, as opposed to going through a random number of independent servers where peer review may occur, as is the case with Packet.

So they went to a ( comparatively ) technically retarded digital mode, abandoning Packet for PACTOR, which cannot share a frequency and so must spread out across the bands, then they went from modern networking practice to the latest thing from the disco era - all so they could transit eMail across the ham bands without peer review - because they knew from experience that a great deal of eMail they were moving was ( and is ) simply illegal, one way or another.

Everything about WinLink is optimised for the act of hiding illegal content from peer review. - They went back to the dark ages for both the digital mode of choice and the network topology employed, all for that one purpose.

The entire WinLink paradigm is predicated upon flouting PART97, and finding ways to escape the foundation of good operating behavior and the self-policing that we are asked to perform by the FCC... - #It is all predicated upon defeating the basic process of peer review.

PSKMail:

PSKMail is not a serious player, being Linux-based. - It might as well have been written for the Commodore-64, for all the actual use it is likely to see.

You'd think people would know better than to write stuff for Linux by now, but we still see programmers pouring all of their code into the Linux hole, never to be seen again.

I used to be a programmer, so I know how much work they are flushing down the Linux toilet. - It's a crying shame!

[ne3r]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Oct. 10 2007,19:37)]Everything about WinLink is optimised for the act of hiding illegal comtent from peer review. - They went back to the dark ages for both the digital mode of choice and the network topology employed, all for that one purpose.

The entire WinLink paradigm is predicated upon flouting PART97, and finding ways to escape the foundation of good operating behavior and the self-policing that we are asked to perform by the FCC... - #It is all predicated upon defeating the basic process of peer review.
Interesting - if it is on the air, surely it can be monitored. Of course, one would have to first spend the money on the pactor3 modem, but once in hand, what would prevent someone form receiving pactor3 signals and decoding them?

[N5PVL]

Quote[/b] (ne3r @ Oct. 10 2007,21:45)]Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Oct. 10 2007,19:37)]Everything about WinLink is optimised for the act of hiding illegal comtent from peer review. - They went back to the dark ages for both the digital mode of choice and the network topology employed, all for that one purpose.

The entire WinLink paradigm is predicated upon flouting PART97, and finding ways to escape the foundation of good operating behavior and the self-policing that we are asked to perform by the FCC... - #It is all predicated upon defeating the basic process of peer review.
Interesting - if it is on the air, surely it can be monitored. #Of course, one would have to first spend the money on the pactor3 modem, but once in hand, what would prevent someone form receiving pactor3 signals and decoding them?
In the Packet network, which has no central server, messages transiting the system are stored and forwarded by a random number of independent servers. ( forwarding BBS stations )

At each of these servers, the messages can be manually reviewed by the SYSOP, automatically held for review, and even automatically rejected if they contain certain words or phrases.

Because of this comprehensive system for peer review of the content of messages transiting the Packet network, it quickly became apparent to those who operated an eMail service over Packet Radio that they would have to manually review each message in order to protect their liscenses. - Because eMail is chock-full of materiel that simply does not pass the criteria set forth for amateur radio operators in the PART97 regulations, as we all know.

But, as I described, WinLink utilizes a STAR network topology that defeats peer review by eliminating the random, independent servers where this peer review may occur.

They also eliminated Packet's bulletproof ability to lose a number of servers without it affecting the network's ability to function. - There is no central failure point in a Packet network where a single snafu can bring down the whole system.

Like the simple eMail virus that shut down the entire WinLink2000 network a year or so back, for example. ( Central server - central failure-point )

You can buy an SCS modem and try to copy WL2K data on the fly if you like, but assuming you are successful, ( which has not been proven ) #you might get to look at just a fraction of one percent of the total WL2K message flow.

One thing you won't be able to do is to comprehensively or fairly assess the content of the WL2K central server's database.

Since WL2K utilizes a STAR network, the central server's database is the only point where 'peer review' may reasonably and effectively occur.

Let us know how it goes when you ask for access to the very information their entire system is designed to hide from other hams - and the FCC.

Nobody's had any luck with that tack so far, and I would have been shocked if they had.

Fortunately, peer review of the content of those eMail may be very difficult to pull off, but catching the same Lids red-handed at causing harmful interference to other amateurs is dead easy!

Stop by at WinLink-Watch (http://www.arwatch.com/watch/w_winlink.htm) and discover how to monitor, record and report WL2K interference. - Anybody can do it, it's really very easy.

Look over the examples there, and see how it can be done by anybody. When you get good screen-captures of WL2K interference events, WinLink-Watch will be happy to display them using our new image storage and display system.

What we need are more Watchers, on more frequencies where WL2K interference is occurring, and more reports to add to the evidence we have on hand now. The more reports the better, as it will take a certain number of actionable reports within a certain period of time in order to awaken the sleeping FCC giant.

If you want to make a difference, this is the proven, effective, relatively easy way to go. - I hope to see you there!

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (ne3r @ Oct. 09 2007,20:45)]Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Oct. 10 2007,19:37)]Everything about WinLink is optimised for the act of hiding illegal comtent from peer review. - They went back to the dark ages for both the digital mode of choice and the network topology employed, all for that one purpose.

The entire WinLink paradigm is predicated upon flouting PART97, and finding ways to escape the foundation of good operating behavior and the self-policing that we are asked to perform by the FCC... - #It is all predicated upon defeating the basic process of peer review.
Interesting - if it is on the air, surely it can be monitored. #Of course, one would have to first spend the money on the pactor3 modem, but once in hand, what would prevent someone form receiving pactor3 signals and decoding them?
To my knowledge, no one has ever provided any sort of documentation on how this would be accomplished. Client mode, modem settings, nothing...

[N5PVL]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Oct. 10 2007,22:42)]Quote[/b] (ne3r @ Oct. 09 2007,20:45)]Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Oct. 10 2007,19:37)]Everything about WinLink is optimised for the act of hiding illegal comtent from peer review. - They went back to the dark ages for both the digital mode of choice and the network topology employed, all for that one purpose.

The entire WinLink paradigm is predicated upon flouting PART97, and finding ways to escape the foundation of good operating behavior and the self-policing that we are asked to perform by the FCC... - #It is all predicated upon defeating the basic process of peer review.
Interesting - if it is on the air, surely it can be monitored. #Of course, one would have to first spend the money on the pactor3 modem, but once in hand, what would prevent someone form receiving pactor3 signals and decoding them?
To my knowledge, no one has ever provided any sort of documentation on how this would be accomplished. Client mode, modem settings, nothing...
I suppose anybody who has coughed up $1,000.00+ for an SCS modem is going to be reluctant to participate in exposing the fact that they cannot be operated in amateur radio's shared RF environment without breaking the PART97 regulations pertaining to the generation of harmful interference.

Pretty expensive doorstop, folks!

In light of this, I believe that we will have to look to some other information source besides the SCS modem owners in order to address this issue.

[AC0H]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Oct. 10 2007,21:37)]PSKMail is not a serious player, being Linux-based. - It might as well have been written for the Commodore-64, for all the actual use it is likely to see.

You'd think people would know better than to write stuff for Linux by now, but we still see programmers pouring all of their code into the Linux hole, never to be seen again.

I used to be a programmer, so I know how much work they are flushing down the Linux toilet. - It's a crying shame!
Charles,

I agree with you on about 90% of what you post, but you really should try to educate yourself on Linux. Those who know what they're talking about know that Linux is superior to the lemming OS pumped out of Redmond on so many different levels it's not even worth arguing about.

You might ask yourself why, if Windows is so superior to Linux, every iteration of windows since NT3 has gotten more *.nix like. Especially the security model.

I guarantee nobody has ever done a demonstration of Linux for the faithful, have an application crash, and have the OS BSOD like Bill Gates did with Windows.

Just because the great unwashed horde choose to be drug around by the nose doesn't mean the alternatives to the swiss cheese OS are inferior. All it indicates is that said horde refuse to educate themselves.

[N5PVL]

Quote[/b] (AC0H @ Oct. 11 2007,08:40)]Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Oct. 10 2007,21:37)]PSKMail is not a serious player, being Linux-based. - It might as well have been written for the Commodore-64, for all the actual use it is likely to see.

You'd think people would know better than to write stuff for Linux by now, but we still see programmers pouring all of their code into the Linux hole, never to be seen again.

I used to be a programmer, so I know how much work they are flushing down the Linux toilet. - It's a crying shame!
Charles,

I agree with you on about 90% of what you post, but you really should try to educate yourself on Linux. Those who know what they're talking about know that Linux is superior to the lemming OS pumped out of Redmond on so many different levels it's not even worth arguing about.

You might ask yourself why, if Windows is so superior to Linux, every iteration of windows since NT3 has gotten more *.nix like. Especially the security model.

I guarantee nobody has ever done a demonstration of Linux for the faithful, have an application crash, and have the OS BSOD like Bill Gates did with Windows.

Just because the great unwashed horde choose to be drug around by the nose doesn't mean the alternatives to the swiss cheese OS are inferior. All it indicates is that said horde refuse to educate themselves.
I understand how you feel... When I talk about the advantages of FlexNet over the old-style Packet stuff like TheNet, ROSE, BPQ etc, I sound a lot like you talking about Linux.

But when somebody asks me what is the best Packet networking package to use, I ask, "What are the Packet guys closest to your location using?"

Whatever they answer, that is my recommendation.

I do this every time, despite the fact that I think that FlexNet is heads 'n shoulders above any of the other AX25 stuff that is available.

The reason for this is that I know that for a new guy trying to join the local network, there are a number of advantages inherent in utilizing the same kind of hardware, firmware and software that the existing Packet resources in their area utilize, even if it is not the latest or greatest thing like FlexNet.

A ham who follows my advice discovers that he has an extensive, built-in Elmer system in the local Packet nodeOps that he would have lacked otherwise. He also will find more cooperation and acceptance in a general sense, which can make or break the ability to fit in as an integral part of the network.

Branching off and being a maverick, utilizing advanced or experimental software etc. has it's place, but a new guy wanting to join the network is not in that place. For his purposes, fitting in and being recognized for making the effort to do so gives a performance edge that applies directly to the task at hand.

This edge is more significant for the new networker than the more conventionally recognised performance edge of using the 'latest and greatest' networking software.

By the same token, I do not recommend Linux as a programming platform for anybody whose project depends upon widespread utilization in order for their project to function as intended.

PSKMail is a perfect example of this. - If it had been written for Windows, we would already be seeing significant use of this software on the air.

Lots of people talk about PSKMail in various discussions, but ( typical of Linux apps ) #there is comparatively little onair activity to balance out all of this talk.

So, I may personally prefer FlexNet and think that it is far superior to any of the other AX25 Packet networking systems, but my conscience does not allow me to go around recommending FlexNet for every situation. To give good advice, I must think about what will make the other fellow most happy, not myself.

The same thing applies when it comes to ham radio programmers and Linux. - It has nothing to do with the actual performance of either one of the two operating systems, but more instead of which can offer a programmer the widest utilization and appreciation of his work. - Where his effort can make the most difference, and do the most good. Once again, to give good advice I must think about what will make the other fellow most happy, not myself.

It's a performance issue, and a very important one - but it isn't the kind of performance we talk about when I discuss FlexNet, or when you discuss Linux.

[ne3r]

Linux isn't for everybody, but then again, neither is ham radio. Interestingly enough, it seems that the same thing that is happening to both Linux & ham radio, it is being dumbed down.

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (AC0H @ Oct. 10 2007,07:40)]Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Oct. 10 2007,21:37)]PSKMail is not a serious player, being Linux-based. - It might as well have been written for the Commodore-64, for all the actual use it is likely to see.

You'd think people would know better than to write stuff for Linux by now, but we still see programmers pouring all of their code into the Linux hole, never to be seen again.

I used to be a programmer, so I know how much work they are flushing down the Linux toilet. - It's a crying shame!
Charles,

I agree with you on about 90% of what you post, but you really should try to educate yourself on Linux. Those who know what they're talking about know that Linux is superior to the lemming OS pumped out of Redmond on so many different levels it's not even worth arguing about.

You might ask yourself why, if Windows is so superior to Linux, every iteration of windows since NT3 has gotten more *.nix like. Especially the security model.

I guarantee nobody has ever done a demonstration of Linux for the faithful, have an application crash, and have the OS BSOD like Bill Gates did with Windows.

Just because the great unwashed horde choose to be drug around by the nose doesn't mean the alternatives to the swiss cheese OS are inferior. All it indicates is that said horde refuse to educate themselves.
At the time, the Amiga was one of the most superior computing systems available. Real time multitasking, superior processor architecture, interactive graphical OS, 16.7M colors at the time when PCs were running 256 or 65K at best....


So why don't we use the Amiga today?



The best 'system' in the world is useless if people don't use it or if people can't get software for it.


In this case, there is a very small niche market for an arguably superior product. The question you have to ask yoruself is... If 5% of people in the real-world are using some form of Linux, then it's reasonable to assume 5% of hams use Linux. Double it cause we're geeks, make that 10%. Do you seriously want to eliminate yourself from 90% of your possible users, just because you decided that your platform of choice is superior?

Is the goal to get people to use your widget, or to use Linux?

If the goal is to get them to use your widget, you have to write to what they have and use, not necessarily what you want to write to.

[ab0wr]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Oct. 11 2007,09:32)]Quote[/b] (AC0H @ Oct. 10 2007,07:40)]Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Oct. 10 2007,21:37)]PSKMail is not a serious player, being Linux-based. - It might as well have been written for the Commodore-64, for all the actual use it is likely to see.

You'd think people would know better than to write stuff for Linux by now, but we still see programmers pouring all of their code into the Linux hole, never to be seen again.

I used to be a programmer, so I know how much work they are flushing down the Linux toilet. - It's a crying shame!
Charles,

I agree with you on about 90% of what you post, but you really should try to educate yourself on Linux. Those who know what they're talking about know that Linux is superior to the lemming OS pumped out of Redmond on so many different levels it's not even worth arguing about.

You might ask yourself why, if Windows is so superior to Linux, every iteration of windows since NT3 has gotten more *.nix like. Especially the security model.

I guarantee nobody has ever done a demonstration of Linux for the faithful, have an application crash, and have the OS BSOD like Bill Gates did with Windows.

Just because the great unwashed horde choose to be drug around by the nose doesn't mean the alternatives to the swiss cheese OS are inferior. All it indicates is that said horde refuse to educate themselves.
At the time, the Amiga was one of the most superior computing systems available. Real time multitasking, superior processor architecture, interactive graphical OS, 16.7M colors at the time when PCs were running 256 or 65K at best....


So why don't we use the Amiga today?



The best 'system' in the world is useless if people don't use it or if people can't get software for it.


In this case, there is a very small niche market for an arguably superior product. The question you have to ask yoruself is... If 5% of people in the real-world are using some form of Linux, then it's reasonable to assume 5% of hams use Linux. Double it cause we're geeks, make that 10%. Do you seriously want to eliminate yourself from 90% of your possible users, just because you decided that your platform of choice is superior?

Is the goal to get people to use your widget, or to use Linux?

If the goal is to get them to use your widget, you have to write to what they have and use, not necessarily what you want to write to.
One issue seems to get lost in the shuffle here.

Programming an application like this on Linux is at least two orders of magnitude easier than it is on Windows -- of *any* version.

I don't blame the programmer that developed pskmail for doing it on Linux, nor do I blame them for *never* doing it for Windows.

I don't know how familar you are with the development of pskmail but it was NOT done by the author for fame or glory, it was done as a personal challenge to see if he could set up a better way for him to get his own email when he was away from home. At least at the beginning, much of it was coded in Perl. Trying doing much with Perl on a Windows PC, at least with the goal of talking to outside links -- not easy.

So people can complain about Linux all they want, they can complain about not having a Windows version -- none of it means anything when it comes to this kind of situation.

It's exactly the same reason when I was developing a major database, graphical display, etc for the place where I worked before early retirement I used Apache, MySQL, Perl, PHP, Linux, and gnuPlot even though we were supposedly a total Microsoft shop. I was not part of IT at the time and got approval for buying a machine that was to be dedicated for this from my boss. It was just *far*, *far* easier to do it all using Linux, including the automatic downloads from the minicomputers that actually had the data needed for my database. This was in 2000/2001 and as far as I know it is still in use. The IT dept told everyone in 2002 they would duplicate my entire system on Windows servers and could do it in just a few weeks. I said "go ahead" and took early retirement. I know for a fact that as of 2004 they had been unable to duplicate it. My system was still running on the Linux box I purchased four years earlier because I was still getting SMS text messages from the server on my cell phone about its health! Something the IT dept *still* doesn't have a good handle on how to do after *seven* years!!! It was easy to do in a cron job/unix script.

Bottom line: Don't complain about an application developed by a single person for non-retail use being on Linux. There is probably a very good reason for it being that way.

tim ab0wr

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] ]
So people can complain about Linux all they want, they can complain about not having a Windows version -- none of it means anything when it comes to this kind of situation.


Actually it means one thing... People who don't run Linux can't run the program, no matter how much they may want to.


Quote[/b] ]
Bottom line: Don't complain about an application developed by a single person for non-retail use being on Linux. There is probably a very good reason for it being that way.



Then the corollary to that would be: Don't complain about how few users actually use your app and how many ask for a version that runs on an operating system you're not willing to write the software for.



Is it easier to write on Linux? Certainly. Is it possible to run the client in a different OS than the server? Most definitely.

Would writing a client (or maybe even a server) for Windows gain you users?

Yes.

[N4PRT]

I like WinLink, think that FM should be allowed on all HF bands, and as soon as I figure a way to interface both with my spark gap transmitter, will enjoy a new phase of this hobby. Part 97 says I should experiment, doesn't it? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KE7NCS]

It is possible to develop software cross-platform (i.e. which works on Windows, OS X, Linux-based OSes, BSDs, Solaris, etc.). There are several very successful examples of this (Firefox is one, OpenOffice is another) which should make it clear to all that it is no longer necessary to program for a single target platform.

That being said, I find it amusing when people are so anxious to continually prop up the Windows monopoly (which is clearly deterioration) because "that's what everyone uses." ;-)

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (KE7NCS @ Oct. 10 2007,14:00)]That being said, I find it amusing when people are so anxious to continually prop up the Windows monopoly (which is clearly deterioration) because "that's what everyone uses." ;-)
Well, I could write software for myself that runs on ADA on a PDP-11... but if I expect others to use it, wouldn't it make sense to write it for what they're going to run it on?

Your individual piece of software isn't going to change the world with respect to the "Windows monopoly"... all it's going to do is end up with your software having 90% fewer possible users.

[KE7NCS]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Oct. 11 2007,13:04)]Quote[/b] (KE7NCS @ Oct. 10 2007,14:00)]That being said, I find it amusing when people are so anxious to continually prop up the Windows monopoly (which is clearly deterioration) because "that's what everyone uses." ;-)
Well, I could write software for myself that runs on ADA on a PDP-11... but if I expect others to use it, wouldn't it make sense to write it for what they're going to run it on?

Your individual piece of software isn't going to change the world with respect to the "Windows monopoly"... all it's going to do is end up with your software having 90% fewer possible users.
Well, again, I think it makes most sense to develop cross-platform. No, one piece of software is not going to change the world. However, if people make concerted decisions to develop quality applications which make Microsoft irrelevant, I think we will see the downfall of Microsoft. I think it is already happening.

[K0RGR]

I'm very surprised that Linux hasn't made more of a splash on the desktop.

Usually, in the tech world, cheap wins.

I know STH will disagree with me, but OS/2 was a much better OS than Windows. But nobody would buy it, largely because it needed 4 MB of RAM and Windows would run somewhat in 2. (OK, and developers hated it too - IBM had to charge a fortune for the development kit, due to antitrust settlements from the 50's.) Betamax had real advantages over VHS, but VHS was cheaper to build.

You can take an older PC, load it with Linux, and download a virtual clone of Microsoft Office - all legal, and all free. But people would rather pay Redmond a fortune.

Linux is still very hot in the server world. It makes a good "dedicated" anything. Need a DNS? Put in a Linux box, blade, or partition. Need a firewall? Put in Linux. Need a mail server? Linux...fileserver? Web server? All pretty easy on Linux. Linux has generated a serious rebirth in the heavy iron (mainframe) computer world - it runs on those machines, too.

The ability to build a bootable system on a CD could make PSKMail very attractive for disaster work. You could use it on any virtually any PC with a soundcard in it.

[N5PVL]

...

[W5OTR]

KC7GNM: You nailed it about ARRL and EMCOMM... I think most of ham radio is getting too obsessed with EMCOMM. OK, hooray for being prepared and being able to help in emergencies. I know that emergency communications are a great tool for the ARRL to use to fight for spectrum, but there really should be a balance it and plain fun. I think this scares off potential new hams. Do you think a 10 year old boy would want to sit in a emergency drill net for 5 hours for?

[N5PVL]

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Oct. 11 2007,23:08)]I'm very surprised that Linux hasn't made more of a splash on the desktop.

Usually, in the tech world, cheap wins.

If that were true, we would all be driving Yugos.

Sorry but quality, comfort and capability count, like it or not.

Quote[/b] ]
I know STH will disagree with me, but OS/2 was a much better OS than Windows. But nobody would buy it, largely because it needed 4 MB of RAM and Windows would run somewhat in 2. (OK, and developers hated it too - IBM had to charge a fortune for the development kit, due to antitrust settlements from the 50's.) Betamax had real advantages over VHS, but VHS was cheaper to build.

You can take an older PC, load it with Linux, and download a virtual clone of Microsoft Office - all legal, and all free. But people would rather pay Redmond a fortune.

You could take an old clunker from the seventies, spray a new coat of paint on it, fumigate the interior and have "that new car look" for free - but people would rather pay Detroit a fortune.

Quote[/b] ]
Linux is still very hot in the server world. It makes a good "dedicated" anything. Need a DNS? Put in a Linux box, blade, or partition. Need a firewall? Put in Linux. Need a mail server? Linux...fileserver? Web server? All pretty easy on Linux. Linux has generated a serious rebirth in the heavy iron (mainframe) computer world - it runs on those machines, too.

Need a reasonably well-distributed platform for ham radio software? - All pretty easy on Windows, all highly unlikely on Linux.

Quote[/b] ]
The ability to build a bootable system on a CD could make PSKMail very attractive for disaster work. You could use it on any virtually any PC with a soundcard in it.

Any PC that will run a given Linux boot disk without crashing, that is... - Maybe one out of five.

One requirement with horror films is that the characters have to be dumb enough to go down into the dark basement without a flashlight, right after they discovered a steaming gut pile at the top of the stairway, garnished with an eyeball on top. - By the same token, Linux enthusiasts have to believe that Linux boot disks boot up on all PC's without crashing, that cheapnis counts for far more than quality does, and of course that Linux never crashes.

That, and the theory that says that objective reality is going to warp itself around so that a miniscule splinter group of cranks using a PC port of the latest OS software from the seventies is going to 'take over' the desktop market in the twenty-first century.

I guess that's all OK if you've got your suspension of disbelief cranked up to the max. - Maybe we can get Ed Wood to direct a promotional video, on the cheap of course.

Linux is nice for computer hobbyists, ISP wannabees and for the occasional crank who is terrified of the Microsoft conspiracy, but for us regular folks who just want a desktop system that does everything while requiring a minimum of tweaking and babysitting, Linux has no appeal whatsoever.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif ---{ #Here comes an important hint! #}

Almost all ham radio operators are 'desktop system' users, the one category that it is universally recognized that Linux sux in.

Five years ago, Linux users comprised almost five percent of the desktop market. Since then, there has been a serious, dedicated effort to promote Linux and the results are in. - Almost six percent of desktop users use Linux.

At that rate, what will poor Bill Gates do five hundred years from now, when Linux 'takes over'?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif ---{ #Sorry, but you Linux guys have been begging for it. #}

[KE7NCS]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Oct. 12 2007,05:13)]Linux is nice for computer hobbyists, ISP wannabees and for the occasional crank who is terrified of the Microsoft conspiracy, but for us regular folks who just want a desktop system that does everything while requiring a minimum of tweaking and babysitting, Linux has no appeal whatsoever.
Well, and for about 60% of web hosting providers. And Google. And IBM. But what do they know? ;-)

The only major advantage of "quality" which Microsoft has is their Monopoly. That is, there is more software available. If you would use Ubuntu, you would know that it is in reality much easier to install and maintain than Windows XP (and uses fewer resources).

Linux also has the added appeal of price and freedom. With Free Software operating systems, you do not have to worry about the OS calling home with your data, or the OS restricting how you use your computer.

The quality of free software is improving at a brisk pace. It makes Microsoft and Apple look like old slow giants. So maybe download the latest Ubuntu livecd and give it a shot.

[ne3r]

You know, one of my favorite ham programs runs in MS DOS.

[ab0wr]

Quote[/b] ]Bottom line: Don't complain about an application developed by a single person for non-retail use being on Linux. There is probably a very good reason for it being that way.

Quote[/b] ]Then the corollary to that would be: Don't complain about how few users actually use your app and how many ask for a version that runs on an operating system you're not willing to write the software for.

No, there isn't a corollary. The developer isn't complaining about how few people are using pskmail. Apparently you didn't read the rest of my post. He developed for himself -- and then let others use it as they wish.

The only people that seem to be complaining are Windows users that complain they can't get access to the program.

A *far* different thing entirely.

And there *is* a way for the complainers to fix the situation -- and it isn't to complain about the author not developing the program for Windows instead of Linux.

tim ab0wr

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (ab0wr @ Oct. 11 2007,08:29)]Quote[/b] ]Bottom line: Don't complain about an application developed by a single person for non-retail use being on Linux. There is probably a very good reason for it being that way.

Quote[/b] ]Then the corollary to that would be: Don't complain about how few users actually use your app and how many ask for a version that runs on an operating system you're not willing to write the software for.

No, there isn't a corollary. The developer isn't complaining about how few people are using pskmail. Apparently you didn't read the rest of my post. He developed for himself -- and then let others use it as they wish.

The only people that seem to be complaining are Windows users that complain they can't get access to the program.

A *far* different thing entirely.

And there *is* a way for the complainers to fix the situation -- and it isn't to complain about the author not developing the program for Windows instead of Linux.

tim ab0wr
There are users who are complaining that more users don't use it. Any one of those users could make a port to Windows if they had the technical knowledge.

It is not a small leap to go from Windows to Linux. I've been using various flavors of Linux since the days of Redhat 4.2, and I was using FreeBSD at the same time. This was in a live ISP. Since then I've used Solaris on Sun and x86, Ubuntu, Knoppix and a host of other distros.

I still prefer Windows for my desktop.

If the PSKMail community (which involves the deveoper and all the users) want more users to adopt PSKMail, they're going to have to port it to Windows. Someone will have to. From my personal perspective, it's not worth it to me to build and maintain a separate Linux machine or partition to use this one app, and I've been working with it for close to 15 years. Most people who would be looking at building a Linux system for this app have less experience than I do, and are more intimidated by the idea of installing a system they have no idea how to use, how to maintain, that has all this text-mode gobbledeegook scrolling by...

Linux is still not ready for the masses. No distro is.

[ab0wr]

Quote[/b] ]There are users who are complaining that more users don't use it. Any one of those users could make a port to Windows if they had the technical knowledge.

Really? Who? I don't know of anyone. The only thing I remember reading is people wishing it was available on Windows. Can you quote a specific message?

Quote[/b] ]It is not a small leap to go from Windows to Linux. I've been using various flavors of Linux since the days of Redhat 4.2, and I was using FreeBSD at the same time. This was in a live ISP. Since then I've used Solaris on Sun and x86, Ubuntu, Knoppix and a host of other distros.

You and I disagree. The 10.2 Suse load had exactly no problems loading on any PC I have it on. It found all hardware and it all works fine. I've never tried it on a laptop but my guess it will work fine on most.

While the linux command line gives *SO* much more capability it is absolutely not needed to use Linux. Even my wife can fire off an X-window session to one of my linux servers using Exceed on her Dell laptop in order to get her email and use OpenOffice.

Quote[/b] ]I still prefer Windows for my desktop.

Not me. Suse has a 64bit load to work on the new AMD chips -- free. Windows? Do they even offer a 64bit Vista? 64bit XP was quite expensive the last time I checked.

As Linux continues to advance in this type of capability while Windows lags behind, Linux *will* become more acceptable.

It's a lot like the "digital revolution" in ham radio. Those crying that "Digital is Coming" don't understand how slow these things move. Those that cry "Linux is coming" have the same bias. It *is* coming, it is inevitable. At some point, Windows will lag far enough behind that a tipping point will be reached. It just won't be this year or next year.

Quote[/b] ]If the PSKMail community (which involves the deveoper and all the users) want more users to adopt PSKMail, they're going to have to port it to Windows. Someone will have to. From my personal perspective, it's not worth it to me to build and maintain a separate Linux machine or partition to use this one app, and I've been working with it for close to 15 years. Most people who would be looking at building a Linux system for this app have less experience than I do, and are more intimidated by the idea of installing a system they have no idea how to use, how to maintain, that has all this text-mode gobbledeegook scrolling by...

Unless you can provide me a quote I just don't buy this. I have yet to see on any forum where the pskmail community is whining for more users. I just haven't.

The *only* complaints I have ever seen, and this thread is full of them, are from those *wishing* it were available on Windows.

And the text-mode gobbledeegook no longer scrolls by anywhere, not even during boot, in the new loads. You have to know enough to go in and change the boot configuration (i.e. grub) to actually get that to happen. Otherwise all you see is the Xwindow interface pop up. At least that is true for SUSE. I can't believe the others aren't also the same.

Quote[/b] ]Linux is still not ready for the masses. No distro is.

When my wife can use it, it is ready.

Remember, 99% of Windows users are lost when it comes to even such a simple thing as installing new applications that don't autorun and install themselves. The number of Windows users that know how to reinstall Windows if needed are even smaller. Using your logic and these facts Windows isn't ready for the masses either.

Why do you think the Geek Squad is going concern?

tim ab0wr

[AF9J]

I think maybe some are missing the point. #I used Linux' (sort of) precursor Unix in college in the 80s. #It was a great system. #Faster than fast for the times, but not at all user friendly. #I know Linux is much more user friendly than Unix ever was. #It's also much more efficient than Windows (you can make a plain old Pentium perform almost as well as a Pentium IV, by using Linux, instead of spaghetti logic ridden Windows [where every new upgrade/version seems to consist of more code slapped onto an already twisted logic tree]). But, in spite of that, at this time I'll stick with Windows. #I find the fact that you either need a one-trick pony machine dedicated to Linux (sorry I don't have the money or space for two computers), or have to screw around with a dual booting system (Linux & Windows - which can be a hassle to get working right), to be a downer. #Also, the lack of applications for Linux,is a real turn-off for me. #

I've been hearing for years how Linux is getting better applicationswise. #But it sure seems to be doing so at a snails pace. #Yeah, I know, in some cases you can write, download for free, or buy Linux kernels to do Windows type applications. #No thanks. So many of the kernals are limited in their application. #As it is, I have no desire (unless I absolutly have to), to write code. Debugging it, is anything but fun to me. #I had to do it for my engineering degree, and for my old job, when I had to rewrite/mod ancient software (along with doing my regular job) to keep the software running to meet new needs. #Most unfun! #So, I'll stick with Windows for now, in spite of the fact that it has operating characteristics that irritate me at times. # That's too bad, Linux#would sure help this old Pentium III perform better.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Oct. 09 2007,20:01)]Oddly enough, there is alternative to WINLINK now, PSKMAil...
Quoting in response to Tim. Right here in this thread is someone who says that PSKMail (a Linux-based program) is an alternative to Winlink (whose client is based on Windows).

Furthermore, here are a few stats for you to think about.

OS market share (http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=5)

Quote[/b] ]
Month Windows XP Windows Vista Windows 2000 Mac OS MacIntel Other

October, 2006 84.62% 0.09% 5.79% 4.09% 1.12% 4.30%
November, 2006 84.95% 0.11% 5.46% 4.10% 1.29% 4.09%
December, 2006 85.30% 0.16% 5.00% 4.15% 1.52% 3.87%
January, 2007 85.02% 0.18% 4.93% 4.34% 1.88% 3.64%
February, 2007 84.33% 0.93% 4.75% 4.29% 2.09% 3.60%
March, 2007 83.57% 2.04% 4.71% 3.94% 2.14% 3.60%
April, 2007 82.65% 3.02% 4.42% 3.89% 2.32% 3.69%
May, 2007 82.02% 3.74% 4.31% 3.95% 2.51% 3.47%
June, 2007 81.94% 4.52% 4.00% 3.52% 2.48% 3.54%
July, 2007 81.40% 5.41% 3.74% 3.36% 2.61% 3.49%
August, 2007 80.48% 6.26% 3.66% 3.33% 2.82% 3.44%
September, 2007 79.32% 7.38% 3.32% 3.38% 3.23% 3.39%


"Other", which encompasses all Linux distros, has gone down from 4.3% to 3.39%. Hardly 'gaining ground'...

[N5PVL]

I tried the "System Rescue" bootable CD distro - but it crashes partway through bootup and hangs up the computer.

... Do they make a "System Rescue Rescue" disk for folks whose computer locks up when they boot up "System Rescue"?

I did find a bootable distro that my old 400Mhz Celeron likes, called "DSL" and went on to do the dual-boot thingy so I could install it on my old Win98 system. The computer is not networked so everything has to come in via memory stick, floppy or CD.

The Win98 computer is dedicated as a TNC for my Packet BBS, so I only get to play with the Linux stuff on the off-hours, where there's not much activity on the air and the TNC is not needed.

The DSL distro is 50MB, and I gave it a 1GB partition so I would have room to add some ham-related stuff.

I might try another distribution later on, if I can free up more HD space.

[K0RGR]

Well, it has always been my contention that all forms of UNIX are ugly, and I used to teach the stuff ages ago. There are mainframe OS's that are easier to manage in some ways. But, Apple's OS-X is doing fairly well in the marketplace, and it's also based on ugly UNIX.

[ka7fox]

I really don't see the point of everyone here arguing over what OS is best and whether Linux is a viable contender.

What OS you use should not be any big deal.

Linux is a viable contender. (Just ask IBM)

All OSes have their weak and strong points.

And, most importantly, years of arguing about OSes among the IT crowd have gotten nowhere.

PS: I Use Linux primarily, Windows/DOS secondly, as well as IRIX, Slowaris, OPENSTEP and FreeBSD.

[KC4RAN]

The problem is that there is at least one really good alternative for the HF Winlink network run by K4CJX, but the client only runs in Linux... so it's not a "viable" alternative, since so few people are willing to run Linux.

[N5PVL]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Oct. 14 2007,01:33)]The problem is that there is at least one really good alternative for the HF Winlink network run by K4CJX, but the client only runs in Linux... so it's not a "viable" alternative, since so few people are willing to run Linux.
That's no problem as far as I'm concerned. - I don't think that eMail belongs on the ham bands, in the first place.

It's kind of like hearing about problems the teenage bang-gangers are having with their hypodermics and switchblades. - Don't you feel sorry for them?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif ---{ Not! }

[WA0LYK]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Oct. 13 2007,18:03)]I tried the "System Rescue" bootable CD distro - but it crashes partway through bootup and hangs up the computer.

... Do they make a "System Rescue Rescue" disk for folks whose computer locks up when they boot up "System Rescue"?

I did find a bootable distro that my old 400Mhz Celeron likes, called "DSL" and went on to do the dual-boot thingy so I could install it on my old Win98 system. The computer is not networked so everything has to come in via memory stick, floppy or CD.

The Win98 computer is dedicated as a TNC for my Packet BBS, so I only get to play with the Linux stuff on the off-hours, where there's not much activity on the air and the TNC is not needed.

The DSL distro is 50MB, and I gave it a 1GB partition so I would have room to add some ham-related stuff.

I might try another distribution later on, if I can free up more HD space.
Where did you get a "system rescue" distribution? Most distro's include the capability of creating a system rescue disk, but unless I'm wrong, its pretty system dependent. In other words, not every driver and module is included. Consequently, you can't just take a rescue disk to another pc and expect it to work. On the other hand, most "live" cd's do contain a good assortment of drivers and modules, but even they don't cover everything.

Really, the argument about OS's doesn't mean much. People use the OS they need to get the applications they want to run. If Open Office continues to grow, they may give Microsoft Office a run for its money and this is where the OS battle will be fought. Throw in POS, database clients, etc. and who knows where the future will go.

Jim
WA0LYK

[AC0H]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Oct. 12 2007,21:28)]Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Oct. 09 2007,20:01)]Oddly enough, there is alternative to WINLINK now, PSKMAil...
Quoting in response to Tim. Right here in this thread is someone who says that PSKMail (a Linux-based program) is an alternative to Winlink (whose client is based on Windows).

Furthermore, here are a few stats for you to think about.

OS market share (http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=5)

Quote[/b] ]
Month Windows XP Windows Vista Windows 2000 Mac OS MacIntel Other

October, 2006 84.62% 0.09% 5.79% 4.09% 1.12% 4.30%
November, 2006 84.95% 0.11% 5.46% 4.10% 1.29% 4.09%
December, 2006 85.30% 0.16% 5.00% 4.15% 1.52% 3.87%
January, 2007 85.02% 0.18% 4.93% 4.34% 1.88% 3.64%
February, 2007 84.33% 0.93% 4.75% 4.29% 2.09% 3.60%
March, 2007 83.57% 2.04% 4.71% 3.94% 2.14% 3.60%
April, 2007 82.65% 3.02% 4.42% 3.89% 2.32% 3.69%
May, 2007 82.02% 3.74% 4.31% 3.95% 2.51% 3.47%
June, 2007 81.94% 4.52% 4.00% 3.52% 2.48% 3.54%
July, 2007 81.40% 5.41% 3.74% 3.36% 2.61% 3.49%
August, 2007 80.48% 6.26% 3.66% 3.33% 2.82% 3.44%
September, 2007 79.32% 7.38% 3.32% 3.38% 3.23% 3.39%


"Other", which encompasses all Linux distros, has gone down from 4.3% to 3.39%. Hardly 'gaining ground'...
The only reasons for those stats are,

#1. Users don't know any better.
#2. ALL new factory built PC's come with Windows installed.

Maybe the DoJ ought to take a closer look at #2.

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Oct. 13 2007,04:54)]Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Oct. 14 2007,01:33)]The problem is that there is at least one really good alternative for the HF Winlink network run by K4CJX, but the client only runs in Linux... so it's not a "viable" alternative, since so few people are willing to run Linux.
That's no problem as far as I'm concerned. - I don't think that eMail belongs on the ham bands, in the first place.

It's kind of like hearing about problems the teenage bang-gangers are having with their hypodermics and switchblades. - Don't you feel sorry for them?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif ---{ #Not! #}
I agree that having a gateway from internet email to ham-radio-based email is a dangerous thing, and shouldn't be done. Having an email system that is contained to itself, I could support that more.

Putting up automated gateways to other networks, of any type, are dangerous.

[kc7gnm]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Oct. 14 2007,12:06)]Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Oct. 13 2007,04:54)]Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Oct. 14 2007,01:33)]The problem is that there is at least one really good alternative for the HF Winlink network run by K4CJX, but the client only runs in Linux... so it's not a "viable" alternative, since so few people are willing to run Linux.
That's no problem as far as I'm concerned. - I don't think that eMail belongs on the ham bands, in the first place.

It's kind of like hearing about problems the teenage bang-gangers are having with their hypodermics and switchblades. - Don't you feel sorry for them?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif ---{ Not! }
I agree that having a gateway from internet email to ham-radio-based email is a dangerous thing, and shouldn't be done. Having an email system that is contained to itself, I could support that more.

Putting up automated gateways to other networks, of any type, are dangerous.
I totally agree with you. Email of the type that goes from amateur to non-amateur and vice-versa should not happen. Email on the ham bands that goes from amateur to amateur station is, in my opinion, ok. That is what packet radio has been doing for years. Some packet systems allow email to be sent to the internet but that is very rare. The problem with winlink is that system was designed for use on commercial channelized systems, not shared spectrum like ham radio.

[N5PVL]

Quote[/b] (WA0LYK @ Oct. 14 2007,08:18)]Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Oct. 13 2007,18:03)]I tried the "System Rescue" bootable CD distro - but it crashes partway through bootup and hangs up the computer.

... Do they make a "System Rescue Rescue" disk for folks whose computer locks up when they boot up "System Rescue"?

I did find a bootable distro that my old 400Mhz Celeron likes, called "DSL" and went on to do the dual-boot thingy so I could install it on my old Win98 system. The computer is not networked so everything has to come in via memory stick, floppy or CD.

The Win98 computer is dedicated as a TNC for my Packet BBS, so I only get to play with the Linux stuff on the off-hours, where there's not much activity on the air and the TNC is not needed.

The DSL distro is 50MB, and I gave it a 1GB partition so I would have room to add some ham-related stuff.

I might try another distribution later on, if I can free up more HD space.
Where did you get a "system rescue" distribution? #Most distro's include the capability of creating a system rescue disk, but unless I'm wrong, its pretty system dependent. #In other words, not every driver and module is included. #Consequently, you can't just take a rescue disk to another pc and expect it to work. #On the other hand, most "live" cd's do contain a good assortment of drivers and modules, but even they don't cover everything.

Really, the argument about OS's doesn't mean much. #People use the OS they need to get the applications they want to run. #If Open Office continues to grow, they may give Microsoft Office a run for its money and this is where the OS battle will be fought. #Throw in POS, database clients, etc. and who knows where the future will go.

Jim
WA0LYK
I found the "System Rescue" ISO image at: http://www.sysresccd.org/Main_Page

Maybe it will work on your system, it freezes mine up, partway thru bootup.

I have a great DOS program ( #part240.exe #) that works from a boot floppy to resize and re-do HD partitions, but my newer computers lack a floppy drive so I thought I'd try a Linux boot CD.

Now I think the best deal is to make a bootable DOS CD with my old favorite program... Live and learn!

I still run two DOS computers in the house, by the way... One is a game machine, and the other runs ham radio software.

There is also a dual-boot Win98/Linux box, and three XP's.

Everything is working OK, so there is no Vista on the horizon.

I have several embedded computers that run ROMDOS. One of them boots up from Flash ROM to run in a a RAMDISK for a no-moving-or-rotating-parts Packet node, another one has a laptop HD so it can run server software.

I find that DOS works very well, when I want bulletproof simplicity that doesn't take up much space. It always works, on every machine I've tried it on.

I even run a DOS emulator called DOSBOX in one of the XP machines, mainly for playing games.

The only one that doesn't do anything useful is the new Linux setup. - It's just something to tinker with.

[kc7gnm]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Oct. 15 2007,21:07)]I found the "System Rescue" ISO image at: http://www.sysresccd.org/Main_Page

Maybe it will work on your system, it freezes mine up, partway thru bootup.

I have a great DOS program ( part240.exe ) that works from a boot floppy to resize and re-do HD partitions, but my newer computers lack a floppy drive so I thought I'd try a Linux boot CD.

Now I think the best deal is to make a bootable DOS CD with my old favorite program... Live and learn!

I still run two DOS computers in the house, by the way... One is a game machine, and the other runs ham radio software.

There is also a dual-boot Win98/Linux box, and three XP's.

Everything is working OK, so there is no Vista on the horizon.

I have several embedded computers that run ROMDOS. One of them boots up from Flash ROM to run in a a RAMDISK for a no-moving-or-rotating-parts Packet node, another one has a laptop HD so it can run server software.

I find that DOS works very well, when I want bulletproof simplicity that doesn't take up much space. It always works, on every machine I've tried it on.

I even run a DOS emulator called DOSBOX in one of the XP machines, mainly for playing games.

The only one that doesn't do anything useful is the new Linux setup. - It's just something to tinker with.
Charles as you have seen by my screen shots I am running Ubuntu linux. It works great for my APRS station. I also use it to monitor the winlids as well. Also I can do SSTV and other things too. Using linux has made me understand more of how the operating system actually works instead of just installing and working. It is a good tool for learning. Give it a chance and you will see what I mean.

[kc7gnm]

Charles,

Here is APRS running on Linux.

http://www.ke7ipw.org/APRS.jpg

[ab0wr]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Oct. 12 2007,19:28)]Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Oct. 09 2007,20:01)]Oddly enough, there is alternative to WINLINK now, PSKMAil...
Quoting in response to Tim. Right here in this thread is someone who says that PSKMail (a Linux-based program) is an alternative to Winlink (whose client is based on Windows).

Furthermore, here are a few stats for you to think about.

OS market share (http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=5)

Quote[/b] ]
Month # Windows XP # Windows Vista # Windows 2000 # Mac OS # MacIntel # Other #

October, 2006 # 84.62% # 0.09% # 5.79% # 4.09% # 1.12% # 4.30% #
November, 2006 # 84.95% # 0.11% # 5.46% # 4.10% # 1.29% # 4.09% #
December, 2006 # 85.30% # 0.16% # 5.00% # 4.15% # 1.52% # 3.87% #
January, 2007 # 85.02% # 0.18% # 4.93% # 4.34% # 1.88% # 3.64% #
February, 2007 # 84.33% # 0.93% # 4.75% # 4.29% # 2.09% # 3.60% #
March, 2007 # 83.57% # 2.04% # 4.71% # 3.94% # 2.14% # 3.60% #
April, 2007 # 82.65% # 3.02% # 4.42% # 3.89% # 2.32% # 3.69% #
May, 2007 # 82.02% # 3.74% # 4.31% # 3.95% # 2.51% # 3.47% #
June, 2007 # 81.94% # 4.52% # 4.00% # 3.52% # 2.48% # 3.54% #
July, 2007 # 81.40% # 5.41% # 3.74% # 3.36% # 2.61% # 3.49% #
August, 2007 # 80.48% # 6.26% # 3.66% # 3.33% # 2.82% # 3.44% #
September, 2007 # 79.32% # 7.38% # 3.32% # 3.38% # 3.23% # 3.39%


"Other", which encompasses all Linux distros, has gone down from 4.3% to 3.39%. Hardly 'gaining ground'...
I'm not sure which "Tim" you are quoting.

First, pskmail *IS* a viable alternative to Winlink. Your quote doesn't address the issue that the only ones complaining about the number of users of pskmail is Windows users, not Linux users.

The answer to that isn't to complain about the author not writing the application for Windows. The answer is to figure out how to use Linux.

Second, you didn't answer my observation that Windows isn't any easier to use than Linux -- just look at the growth in companies like Geek Squad for confirmation. The service window at the Best Buy and the local geek shop is *always* filled with people who can't add memory to their machine or even do a system restore when the hard disk gets farkled.

Third, if my wife can *use* Linux, then I'm not sure where the issue comes in. If her PC came with SUSE linux instead of Windows XP, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't even know the difference as long as she can navigate the menus. I *KNOW* that's true at the school where I work. As long as they can start up their web browser, Power Point, Word, etc they don't care if they are on a Windows PC or a Mac PC. They really don't even know the difference.

tim ab0wr

[N5PVL]

KC7GMN says:
Quote[/b] ]
Charles as you have seen by my screen shots I am running Ubuntu linux. It works great for my APRS station. I also use it to monitor the winlids as well. Also I can do SSTV and other things too. Using linux has made me understand more of how the operating system actually works instead of just installing and working. It is a good tool for learning. Give it a chance and you will see what I mean.

I'm having fun with the DSL distro, fooling around with that. Two limitations here are a 1gb partition for Linux, and my CD burner, which only likes the RW CD's. They only hold 650 MB, too small for most Linux distros. FreeBSD for example would fit on the RW/CD, but it would not install onto a 1gb partition. Ubuntu is one of the great majority of distros that will not fit on a RW/CD.

I kind of like the Debian and Knoppix stuff, and DSL is derived from those. - It gives me something to fool around with until I can come up with more HD space and a new CD burner.

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (ab0wr @ Oct. 15 2007,06:34)]First, pskmail *IS* a viable alternative to Winlink. Your quote doesn't address the issue that the only ones complaining about the number of users of pskmail is Windows users, not Linux users.

The answer to that isn't to complain about the author not writing the application for Windows. The answer is to figure out how to use Linux.

Second, you didn't answer my observation that Windows isn't any easier to use than Linux -- just look at the growth in companies like Geek Squad for confirmation. The service window at the Best Buy and the local geek shop is *always* filled with people who can't add memory to their machine or even do #a system restore when the hard disk gets farkled.

Third, if my wife can *use* Linux, then I'm not sure where the issue comes in. If her PC came with SUSE linux instead of Windows XP, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't even know the difference as long as she can navigate the menus. I *KNOW* that's true at the school where I work. As long as they can start up their web browser, Power Point, Word, etc they don't care if they are on a Windows PC or a Mac PC. They really don't even know the difference.

tim ab0wr
If I develop an alternative fuel that easily replaces gasoline but can't be made by the public at large, I produce it all but I have no means of delivering it to the users, is it a "viable alternative"? The answer is no. Without the whole solution, it's not viable. If any one piece is out of reach, it isn't viable.

In this case, yes, it works on Linux... but no, most people don't run Linux. The vast vast majority of desktop systems are Windows, and these stats show this.

If the goal is to get people to use pskmail, the answer is certainly not to demand that the users convert to Linux... unless you want the program usage to track those numbers I quoted.


And as for 'easier to use', the support infrastructure is there for Windows. It isn't for Linux. You said Best Buy is packed. Yep... with people with Windows machines. Bring in a Linux machine and most of the shops will refuse to work on it.

As for your wife, that's anecdotal. The statistical evidence I can find does not agree with your anecdotal evidence.

[ab0wr]

kc4ran:Quote[/b] ]If the goal is to get people to use pskmail, the answer is certainly not to demand that the users convert to Linux... unless you want the program usage to track those numbers I quoted.

Again, the only people who seem to have this goal is Windows users complaining about the application only being available on Linux.

I have yet to see a pskmail users running Linux saying they wish more people would use the application.

As I stated earlier, the goal of the application was so the author could get his email using something besides WL2K. There is nothing in that goal statement about wishing more people would use the application.

You keep coming back to pskmail users wishing more people would use it but I can't find that stated anywhere by a Linux user.

Again, instead of Windows users complaining that an application wasn't written for Windows they would be better off learning to use Linux.

Oh, BTW, my wife is not just an anecdotal incident. All of those users running Mac OS-X are using a Linux/Unix derivative. That's no different than my wife using a Linux/Unix derivative put out by SUSE instead of Apple. Hardly "anecdotal".

tim ab0wr