View Full Version : What is happening...
w4bgn
10-03-2007, 07:45 PM
I have noticed here locally an increase in new licensees. This is great, but when they become licensed, most hang out on the 2 meter bands, check in the nets a few times, then POOF, they're gone.
A person may be lucky enough to hear some of them a few months later, but not very often.
Any ideas on how to keep them interested???
kl7aj
10-03-2007, 07:49 PM
What you observe is UNIVERSAL in modern hamdom. We need to get these kids....ALL of them into a real ham shack, where they can SEE something besides 2 meters. Even a cruddy shortwave radio is preferable to the normal entry portal most of these guys pass through. We need to pair every new ham with an elmer...this is a doable goal.
The fact is, most newer hams have never seen anything with an actual knob on it, much less, actually heard shortwave.
This is where we need to start
KI4ITI
10-03-2007, 08:05 PM
Some of them came to amateur radio expecting it to be something it isn't. There's not much we can or should do to retain them.
Others, perhaps, simply haven't managed to connect with someone who can fuel their interest and help them learn. Those need a good Elmer.
In either case, we should talk to them and find out why they came to amateur radio in the first place, and why their interest has dropped off. Then go from there.
73
Josh KI4ITI
k1asc
10-03-2007, 08:09 PM
Quote[/b] (ki4iti @ Oct. 03 2007,05:05)]Others, perhaps, simply haven't managed to connect with someone who can fuel their interest and help them learn. Those need a good Elmer.
I agree 100%.
I wish I had an elmer. Never had one.
ab9lz
10-03-2007, 08:32 PM
Quote[/b] (k1asc @ Oct. 03 2007,13:09)]Quote[/b] (ki4iti @ Oct. 03 2007,05:05)]Others, perhaps, simply haven't managed to connect with someone who can fuel their interest and help them learn. Those need a good Elmer.
I agree 100%.
I wish I had an elmer. Never had one.
Mine was the internet, he was a crotchety old ***t, but was always there when I needed him... google and his side kick qrz.
73 m/4
k1asc
10-03-2007, 08:37 PM
I respect your opinion.
Google is great but I would take an old curmudgeon for elmer any day over my computer. Specifically for practicing CW...
Google does not reply to my questions...or at least, not very well.
W4MAJ
10-03-2007, 08:46 PM
My elmer was a gentleman who was on the way out of amateur radio. His interest was the 220 band and 10 meters, but this was just enough to get me hooked.
I don't think there are many hams who became hooked because they saw a book in Radio Shack or bought a second hand scanner. It was someone who was there to show them the ropes.
In retrospect, I suppose we all owe a debt of thanks to someone more experienced who was willing to show us the ropes. (wink wink nudge nudge)
G0GQK
10-03-2007, 08:47 PM
Could it be that being at the bottom of the sunspot cycle they switch on the radio, hear next to nothing except noise, and then say, no thanks !
G0GQK
I have to agree emphatically with Eric. #The vhf/uhf bands are NOT for beginners! # There is so much MORE to offer a new ham than repeaters and hand-helds. #I believe that HF CW like in the old days should be the entry point for amateur radio operation. # Oh, you have a problem with that ? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif #OK, how about HF PSK-31 ? #I have no problem with that. #Some of the restrictions such as a select segment of the band, low power operation, etc. could still be utilized using PSK-31, and the new ham would learn many of the same sorts of things that they learned back in the "dark ages". #
My point is that the guy/gal with a shack in the shirtpocket becomes very bored with their impression of ham radio, and often gives up LONG BEFORE they ever see what else the avocation has to offer them ! #
Just my humble opinion. #73, Jim
Hey, I just noticed, this is my 10,000th post ! wheeeee !
WW3QB
10-03-2007, 09:24 PM
Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ Oct. 03 2007,13:50)]I believe that HF CW like in the old days should be the entry point for amateur radio operation. # Oh, you have a problem with that ? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif #OK, how about HF PSK-31 ? #I have no problem with that. #
CW was a great entry point, but back then there was not much of a choice. VHF rigs were rare and expensive, and there were not many to talk to. VHF was for experimenters (hence the Technician license). The Novice license was the most common entry.
But you are onto something about PSK31 and even RTTY. Kids relate today to text modes. If they saw that on HF, they may actually want to dive in. They could chase DX or ragchew. But many OT’s are not into those modes, so they may not be good Elmers. I am just getting interested myself. I would have liked to do RTTY in the 1970’s but back then it required a large noisy machine. Kids already have computers and enjoy real-time texting (IM’s). All they need is a HF rig, MMTTY, and of course a General class license.
K9STH
10-03-2007, 09:26 PM
Unfortunately, way too many newcomers to amateur radio go with the "shack on the hip" concept. That is they purchase a handheld VHF FM unit (usually 2 meters or 2 meters / 70 centimeters) and get very bored with the relatively few number of contacts that are generally possible through their local repeater(s).
That is why I try to convince the newly licensed NOT to purchase a handheld as their very first unit. It has been my experience that for every 1 newcomer who "sticks with" amateur radio and started with a handheld there are at least 20 newcomers who obtained a handheld and lost interest within the first 6 months (if not even faster).
A handheld is just too limited (range, modes, etc.) for the vast majority of new amateur radio operators to get the experience needed to "peak" their interest.
Glen, K9STH
WA9SVD
10-03-2007, 10:13 PM
FWIW:
With operating at our club station, (and putting in between 10 and 40 hours per month, we are supposed to commit to at least a 4-hour period once a month ) I have the privilege (and yes it IS a privilege) of meeting many newly licensed Amateurs (newbies.)
But I see a VAST difference in interest and attitude of these people, and it seems to me, there ARE some misconceptions that abound.
One "newbie" came on board with hopefully at least some honest intention of becoming a regular operator. But after a brief orientation period, it seems that when this person learned much of our operation was HF oriented, and not the quintessential "EMCOMM über alles" communication center, with 2 Meter training nets a first, if not only priority, the interest and enthusiasm quickly dwindled, and that person has not been back since, after 5 months.
Obviously, a person who is a "no show" for scheduled time is not missed much, but I have to question the reason they obtained a license in the first place.
But on the BRIGHT side, another "newbie" at around the same time made an effort to come to the club station at times when NOT scheduled; to LEARN. Initially frightened to death of HF, and barely able to operate on VHF for fear of making a mistake, (I think we've all "been there, done that" at some point!) a few hours of explaining and demonstrating the actual workings of Amateur Radio has done wonders; with a bit of coaxing, this person was able to break a pileup of sorts and make her FIRST HF contact. And the wild-eyed fascination in her eyes are what bring satisfaction to any Elmer, OT or even hardened OF. This person has now gone on to upgrade to General, and is using borrowed equipment to get on HF on her own. That's the kind of individual we REALLY want and NEED in Amateur Radio.
I feel it was a special PRIVILEGE to have been at the station, and encouraged this person to make the effort to try HF, and realize the magic that is part of Amateur Radio. (I KNEW we had another one hooked on Amateur Radio that day. IMHO, that's what it's all about: sharing the experience and enjoyment of communicating over the airwaves.)
kl7aj
10-03-2007, 10:19 PM
Quote[/b] (W4MAJ @ Oct. 03 2007,13:46)]My elmer was a gentleman who was on the way out of amateur radio. His interest was the 220 band and 10 meters, but this was just enough to get me hooked.
I don't think there are many hams who became hooked because they saw a book in Radio Shack or bought a second hand scanner. It was someone who was there to show them the ropes.
In retrospect, I suppose we all owe a debt of thanks to someone more experienced who was willing to show us the ropes. (wink wink nudge nudge)
Well, I have taken the wink and the nudge dead seriously, which is why I'm creating the "Opus of Amateur Radio Knowledge and Lore." This is going to be a great book....tells it like it is. And I'm already getting some first rate collaborators, as well...guys in the sciences with a real track record.
eric
kl7aj
10-03-2007, 10:20 PM
Quote[/b] (k1asc @ Oct. 03 2007,13:37)]I respect your opinion.
Google is great but I would take an old curmudgeon for elmer any day over my computer. Specifically for practicing CW...
Google does not reply to my questions...or at least, #not very well.
Well, one must ask....are there any other hams in your neighborhood? Let's find out WHY people don't have elmers. We can fix it.
eric
kl7aj
10-03-2007, 10:29 PM
From my limited viewpoint, I can probably say that 2-meter repeaters have been the worst thing ever to happen to ham radio. I actually encounter more hard-core CBers who have an actual interest in H.F. and propagation and such than most EMCOMM draftees. At least with a CBer, there's something there to work with. Sure they need a lot of rough edges knocked off, but a surprising number of them are actually interested in RADIO.
Quote[/b] (ki4iti @ Oct. 03 2007,13:05)]Some of them came to amateur radio expecting it to be something it isn't.
Which begs the question of exactly WHAT do newcomers expect of Amateur Radio, and why do they expect what they expect? #
I know what I expected of Amateur Radio when I first got interested in the late 1960s, and it more than lived up to my expectations. #But that was then; kids' expectations today are much different, and probably less realistic in some ways, than 40 years ago.
We need to determine just what newbies expect of Amateur Radio before we can tailor an approach to retaining their interest.
kl7aj
10-03-2007, 10:39 PM
Quote[/b] (K5FH @ Oct. 03 2007,15:32)]Quote[/b] (ki4iti @ Oct. 03 2007,13:05)]Some of them came to amateur radio expecting it to be something it isn't.
Which begs the question of exactly WHAT do newcomers expect of Amateur Radio, and why do they expect what they expect? #
I know what I expected of Amateur Radio when I first got interested in the late 1960s, and it more than lived up to my expectations. #But that was then; kids' expectations today are much different, and probably less realistic in some ways, than 40 years ago.
We need to determine just what newbies expect of Amateur Radio before we can tailor an approach to retaining their interest.
yip....If we can also find out WHERE they're learning about ham radio from, we can find out who's misleading them... I guarantee you...it's not the newbies' faults...someone's selling them a bill of goods.
eric
ab0wr
10-03-2007, 10:42 PM
One of the first things that needs to be determined is what sparked their interest in getting a license in the first place.
If it is learning about *radio* then simply pointing them to introductory texts would be a big assistance. My first elmer was a copy of the "Radio Handbook" by Bill Orr, W6SAI. There was more "radio" in that book than I will ever learn.
If what sparked their interest was being a Whacker, then good riddance.
tim ab0wr
WA9SVD
10-03-2007, 10:45 PM
Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ Oct. 03 2007,15:29)]From my limited viewpoint, I can probably say that 2-meter repeaters have been the worst thing ever to happen to ham radio. I actually encounter more hard-core CBers who have an actual interest in H.F. and propagation and such than most EMCOMM draftees. At least with a CBer, there's something there to work with. Sure they need a lot of rough edges knocked off, but a surprising number of them are actually interested in RADIO.
You're probably right, Eric.
(Sarcasm on) But I will then be asked "what does RADIO have to do with EMCOMM, and why did my CERT instructor tell me to get an Amateur Radio License?" Why waste time playing with HF and all this other stuff unrelated to Homeland Security and emergency communications? (Sarcasm off.)
The problem is, many of them are dead serious when they ask those questions, so they fall out of the ranks. IMHO, as sad as it is to say, they never should have bothered getting licensed in the first place.
Maybe DHS needs to set up a seperate Radio Service strictly for EMCOMM training and preparation; sort of a Public Service "auxiliary," outside of the Amateur frequencies. Maybe in the GMRS band; registered participants could get the license fee waived, and the radio equipment for most of them would be less expensive than Amateur equipment, and already FCC certified.
KC0OFZ
10-03-2007, 10:54 PM
Quote[/b] (w4bgn @ Oct. 03 2007,12:45)]I have noticed here locally an increase in new licensees. This is great, but when they become licensed, most hang out on the 2 meter bands, check in the nets a few times, then POOF, they're gone.
A person may be lucky enough to hear some of them a few months later, but not very often.
Any ideas on how to keep them interested???
A good part of the blame starts with the leagues sale of the ecomm gig. The whole (and only) sale point is to get everyone worked up to a fever over how they and a handheld will "save" the world. This is what the league wants. Numbers, numbers, and numbers. As long as there are numbers on the books the mission is complete. All of the focus is on getting new tickets to be issued and this is the result of that mission. We got what we wished for.....NUMBERS.
k1asc
10-03-2007, 10:55 PM
Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ Oct. 03 2007,07:20)]Quote[/b] (k1asc @ Oct. 03 2007,13:37)]I respect your opinion.
Google is great but I would take an old curmudgeon for elmer any day over my computer. Specifically for practicing CW...
Google does not reply to my questions...or at least, not very well.
Well, one must ask....are there any other hams in your neighborhood? Let's find out WHY people don't have elmers. We can fix it.
eric
Yes. There are other hams in my neighborhood. There's even a club I used to go to for a while.
Some of the senior members (seemingly, Extras) could not be bothered with my questions ("what, you don't know?" kinda attitude), other members didn't seem to care and stuck to working the local repeaters, some didn't even know how to power on their own radios....
Not very positive experience. So I took the hint and "kept walking".
When I wonder about stuff, I read. Sometimes, I found my answers, sometimes I don't. I have even started experiencing by building stuff (I stink at soldering). That's when I wish I could have an elmer to talk to...to bounce ideas off of.
There is another club that I am planning to check out...soon.
kl7aj
10-03-2007, 11:01 PM
Quote[/b] (k1asc @ Oct. 03 2007,15:55)]Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ Oct. 03 2007,07:20)]Quote[/b] (k1asc @ Oct. 03 2007,13:37)]I respect your opinion.
Google is great but I would take an old curmudgeon for elmer any day over my computer. Specifically for practicing CW...
Google does not reply to my questions...or at least, #not very well.
Well, one must ask....are there any other hams in your neighborhood? #Let's find out WHY people don't have elmers. #We can fix it.
eric
Yes. There are other hams in my neighborhood. There's even a club I used to go to for a while.
Some of the senior members #(seemingly, Extras) could not be bothered with my questions ("what, you don't know?" kinda attitude), other members didn't seem to care and stuck to working the local repeaters, some didn't even know how to power on their own radios....
Not very positive experience. So I took the hint and "kept walking".
When I wonder about stuff, I read. Sometimes, I found my answers, sometimes I don't. #I have even started experiencing by building stuff (I stink at soldering). That's when I wish I could have an elmer to talk to...to bounce ideas off of.
There is another club that I am planning to check out...soon.
Long Beach Hams (http://www.qrz.com/callsign?callsign=NAME&search=Long+Beach&simple=on)
Hi again:
According to the QRZ database there are over 500 hams in Long Beach. Surely there must be one or two accommodating ones....maybe not in the club. I'd just start calling! I'm serious. We can get to the problem of this Elmer thing...
Let it start with you! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
eric
WA9SVD
10-03-2007, 11:20 PM
Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ Oct. 03 2007,16:01)]Quote[/b] (k1asc @ Oct. 03 2007,15:55)]Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ Oct. 03 2007,07:20)]Quote[/b] (k1asc @ Oct. 03 2007,13:37)]I respect your opinion.
Google is great but I would take an old curmudgeon for elmer any day over my computer. Specifically for practicing CW...
Google does not reply to my questions...or at least, not very well.
Well, one must ask....are there any other hams in your neighborhood? Let's find out WHY people don't have elmers. We can fix it.
eric
Yes. There are other hams in my neighborhood. There's even a club I used to go to for a while.
Some of the senior members (seemingly, Extras) could not be bothered with my questions ("what, you don't know?" kinda attitude), other members didn't seem to care and stuck to working the local repeaters, some didn't even know how to power on their own radios....
Not very positive experience. So I took the hint and "kept walking".
When I wonder about stuff, I read. Sometimes, I found my answers, sometimes I don't. I have even started experiencing by building stuff (I stink at soldering). That's when I wish I could have an elmer to talk to...to bounce ideas off of.
There is another club that I am planning to check out...soon.
Long Beach Hams (http://www.qrz.com/callsign?callsign=NAME&search=Long+Beach&simple=on)
Hi again:
According to the QRZ database there are over 500 hams in Long Beach. Surely there must be one or two accommodating ones....maybe not in the club. I'd just start calling! I'm serious. We can get to the problem of this Elmer thing...
Let it start with you! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
eric
Eric,
If he's in Wrong Beach (grin) he can contact me and I'll get him in touch of some good Elmers. Or he can settle on myself if his standards aren't TOO high... But I DO wield a mean soldering iron. There are a LOT of opportunities for operating and Elmering in Long Beach, CA.
WA6MHZ
10-03-2007, 11:39 PM
We need to have Ham Radio offer something they cannot get on the internet or with Cell Phones. So far, those, along with Video games are winning the war. My wife and son see no reason whatsoever to use Ham when they can find all they need, talk to whoever they want and get all the entertainment they want on the other 3. WHAT does Ham Radio offer? EMCOMM is about it. And with a shortage of disasters, Hams spend a long time waiting and preparing for "the big one" never seems to arrive. They prefer the private conversations on Cell rather than a "everyone can hear them" QSO on 2M FM.
In the "Old Days", Ham radio offered excitement, intrigue and suspense. Now, the internet far surpasses it in every aspect. So you can talk to Europe, Africa and the Far East. YAWN..... Can do that on IRC Chat. No big deal anymore. The one "neat" thing Ham has going for it is too isolated and far between. That is talking to Space. A few have worked the Space Station, and that is something you CAN'T DO on Cell or the internet. So we need more Expeditions to the ISS and on Shuttles to get more excitement building. I remember driving to a hill top and calling and calling Owen Garrett when he flew over in the Shuttle. Almost worked him, if everyone else on the West Coast hadn't been calling. So we need more "NEAT" things like that to gather some interest. Then Ham Radio will get going again.
This is common with many hobbies.
Some people join with great expectations, then get bored and lose interest.
Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Oct. 03 2007,16:44)]This is common with many hobbies.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
KB3LIX
10-04-2007, 12:06 AM
You must be careful with radio clubs. Outwardly, they may APPEAR to be interested in newcomers, but inwardly, they could care less and make it a point to discourage new members.
When I was first licensed, I joined 2 local clubs.
On the surface, the first one seemed to welcome new licensees, they seemed interested in helping to elmer, but once I was a member, several members went out of their way to make me feel unwelcome and one guy made it a point to #embarass me on a 2 meter net one night to make a point that I was new and didn't know squat.
The second club was just the opposite.
The welcomed me with open arms, and I am quite comfortable as a member.
Look around at all the area clubs. They can be as different as night and day. Finding one that you feel comfortable with may be time consuming, but will be well worth the effort. The encouragement and knowledge they have to offer is worth its weight in gold.
wb6mmj
10-04-2007, 12:56 AM
Quote[/b] (w4bgn @ Oct. 03 2007,12:45)]I have noticed here locally an increase in new licensees. This is great, but when they become licensed, most hang out on the 2 meter bands, check in the nets a few times, then POOF, they're gone.
A person may be lucky enough to hear some of them a few months later, but not very often.
Any ideas on how to keep them interested???
I believe that since getting a Ham License is so easy, now, that people who don`t have a deep interest Amateur Radio are getting their License. They try it and decide they don`t really like it or would rather be doing something else.
#When I was a young kid I liked Radio and electronics. I knew it was a matter of time before I got my Amateur License. It was "in my blood". It was part of what makes me, me.
#Now that it is so easy to get a License, people get them and come and go. It probably isn`t that big of deal for them as it was for us OF`s. I know that I "had" to have one and I was going to work as hard as it took to get one.
#Now that the gates are open and will open wider as time goes on, I believe we will see more and more come and go.
#Amateur Radio, whether you like it or not, is turning into CB.
W5HTW
10-04-2007, 01:30 AM
Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ Oct. 03 2007,15:45)]Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ Oct. 03 2007,15:29)]From my limited viewpoint, I can probably say that 2-meter repeaters have been the worst thing ever to happen to ham radio. I actually encounter more hard-core CBers who have an actual interest in H.F. and propagation and such than most EMCOMM draftees. At least with a CBer, there's something there to work with. Sure they need a lot of rough edges knocked off, but a surprising number of them are actually interested in RADIO.
You're probably right, Eric.
(Sarcasm on) But I will then be asked "what does RADIO have to do with EMCOMM, and why did my CERT instructor tell me to get an Amateur Radio License?" Why waste time playing with HF and all this other stuff unrelated to Homeland Security and emergency communications? (Sarcasm off.)
The problem is, many of them are dead serious when they ask those questions, so they fall out of the ranks. IMHO, as sad as it is to say, they never should have bothered getting licensed in the first place.
Maybe DHS needs to set up a seperate Radio Service strictly for EMCOMM training and preparation; sort of a Public Service "auxiliary," outside of the Amateur frequencies. Maybe in the GMRS band; registered participants could get the license fee waived, and the radio equipment for most of them would be less expensive than Amateur equipment, and already FCC certified.
Exactly the problem.
Quote[/b] ] Maybe DHS needs to set up a seperate Radio Service strictly for EMCOMM training and preparation; sort of a Public Service "auxiliary," outside of the Amateur frequencies. Maybe in the GMRS band; registered participants could get the license fee waived, and the radio equipment for most of them would be less expensive than Amateur equipment, and already FCC certified.
And this:
Quote[/b] ]A good part of the blame starts with the leagues sale of the ecomm gig. The whole (and only) sale point is to get everyone worked up to a fever over how they and a handheld will "save" the world. This is what the league wants. Numbers, numbers, and numbers. As long as there are numbers on the books the mission is complete. All of the focus is on getting new tickets to be issued and this is the result of that mission. We got what we wished for.....NUMBERS.
These are a major part of the problem. They recruit people who have ZERO interest in amateur radio. Of course, the more numbers, the more federal funding in grants.
I hear there is a move to create (or enhance) the 148-150 mhz band as a non-ham (as it should be -- non ham) range of channels for a form of EMCOM auxilliary. I am a thousand percent for it, getting the Whackers out of ham radio, and let the serious ones have a place to do their volunteer work. I am not denigrating their volunteerism, but I think it has no real place in amateur radio.
Now we have an amateur radio license being used as a professional license. Police, fire, medics, emergency mangers, being "required" to obtain a ham license. That makes it a professional license, like a teacher's certificate, or a welding certificate, or a CDL. It is no longer an amateur radio license.
I am not sure we can get amateur radio back. It has been stolen from under our noses, and turned into an extension of Homeland Security, the FBI, CIA, and a dozen other federal agencies.
All that brings us to "what happens to the newcomer?" He is told he is getting into ham radio. Instead of the big beams, and SSB DX on 20 meters, and high powered HF radio, he is stuck with an HT on 2 meters. Ham radio is as far away from him as it was when he was born. He saw the photos of the rigs, read the articles about talking around the world, and he is talking to the same few people, on the same channels, every evening, and he is just plain bored. It is worse than CB, because not only is he limited, but he has rules.
The magic never came. He has been seriously misled. Of course, if he is a Whacker, I hope he goes away, for sure. But if he is a potentially good ham, I'd like to see him ditch the HT, get on HF, and see the REAL amateur radio.
Forget saving the world. It has a thousand well qualified agencies out there saving it every minute. Get into the hobby of amateur radio.
Ed
K0HWY
10-04-2007, 01:46 AM
This is simply something that goes along with changing times. You're not going to keep the interest of young people these days. They live a different lifestyle as compared to what we lived. There's simply too many other things to do that are more exciting.
The less difficult testing/numbers game being played by ARRL obviously isn't working. You could take away testing entirely (and they will eventually) and it's not going to make a difference.
WA0LYK
10-04-2007, 02:14 AM
Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ Oct. 03 2007,18:30)]These are a major part of the problem. They recruit people who have ZERO interest in amateur radio. Of course, the more numbers, the more federal funding in grants.
I hear there is a move to create (or enhance) the 148-150 mhz band as a non-ham (as it should be -- non ham) range of channels for a form of EMCOM auxilliary. I am a thousand percent for it, getting the Whackers out of ham radio, and let the serious ones have a place to do their volunteer work. I am not denigrating their volunteerism, but I think it has no real place in amateur radio.
Now we have an amateur radio license being used as a professional license. Police, fire, medics, emergency mangers, being "required" to obtain a ham license. That makes it a professional license, like a teacher's certificate, or a welding certificate, or a CDL. It is no longer an amateur radio license.
I am not sure we can get amateur radio back. It has been stolen from under our noses, and turned into an extension of Homeland Security, the FBI, CIA, and a dozen other federal agencies.
All that brings us to "what happens to the newcomer?" He is told he is getting into ham radio. Instead of the big beams, and SSB DX on 20 meters, and high powered HF radio, he is stuck with an HT on 2 meters. Ham radio is as far away from him as it was when he was born. He saw the photos of the rigs, read the articles about talking around the world, and he is talking to the same few people, on the same channels, every evening, and he is just plain bored. It is worse than CB, because not only is he limited, but he has rules.
The magic never came. He has been seriously misled. Of course, if he is a Whacker, I hope he goes away, for sure. But if he is a potentially good ham, I'd like to see him ditch the HT, get on HF, and see the REAL amateur radio.
Forget saving the world. It has a thousand well qualified agencies out there saving it every minute. Get into the hobby of amateur radio.
Ed
Along with the FBI, CIA, and a dozen other agencies, don't leave out the NGO's like the ARC.
Ask yourself how many hours per year you have spent in each of the last five years on real, on the ground, emergency communications, not just drills and practices and public events like parades. Perhaps the folks on the southern coast have spent a goodly amount of time, but elsewhere it is minimal.
When you recruit folks to be the "savior" they aren't going to be very satisfied with little or even no time spent doing what they joined for. Blame this on the propaganda being put out in the recruitment for more and more new hams.
I would recommend that each and every exam have three questions, one, what is the definition of the amateur radio service, two, what are ALL the basis and purpose requirements, and three, how many hours you should expect doing real, live emergency communications per year. This would, I hope, let the folks have a better idea what the whole experience of amateur radio is about.
I do like the idea of a frequency band that the public agencies can use for volunteers and have it under their control. At the very least, the pool of volunteers will be at least two orders of magnitude greater than what hams can draw from. This is the other problem never mentioned about hams doing emergency communications. At any given time you might have 30 hams register and show up at a meeting of volunteers and 12 months later have only 5. People just refuse to admit that amateur radio has no capability of implementing a succession plan. By this I mean a budgeted financial pool whereby you hire replacement people for those that leave so that you can guarantee a certain number of people. Over any given point in time, hams die, move away, start families, become more involved in business, or just become interested in something else. That makes it real difficult or even next to impossible to have a DEPENDABLE number of volunteers that can be available at a moments notice. By increasing the pool of volunteers, you can help resolve this issue.
Jim
WA0LYK
wb6mmj
10-04-2007, 02:54 AM
I know someone who just got their Amateur Radio License. His two young kids did also. By the way, this person and his family are some of the nicest people you will ever meet. I`ve known his dad for years now.
This person put out flyer's at our local businesses trying to get Licensed and people wanting to get their Amateur Radio Licenses to get together and form a emergency communication group for our Mountain Communities. It`s a good idea, I think. We have fires, earthquakes, ect.
He was trying to put this group together before he got his license. That told me he was really into doing this.
I have wondered if there is some kind of funding available that is for such groups. I didn`t ask him.
Oh, my point. I almost forgot. I`m starting to believe that he was sold the line about how Amateur Radio is for emergency communications. Is this what is going on? Have I missed this?
To me Amateur Radio is staying up late or getting up early to work that rare DX station. It`s to talk to people you have met on the air and become close friends with, or over the air friends with. It`s about being part of a net or spending time working on your antenna`s or Radio`s on the weekends. It`s going to the swap meet and having breakfast with friends before going.
But the big part of Amateur radio, I like, is the learning. I`m sure I left out some stuff, but you get the idea.
So how is Amateur Radio being sold to the new people?
Is it Emergency Communications or the way I was told about it?
WE4AU
10-04-2007, 03:44 AM
Quote[/b] (ww3qb @ Oct. 03 2007,16:24)]Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ Oct. 03 2007,13:50)]I believe that HF CW like in the old days should be the entry point for amateur radio operation. Oh, you have a problem with that ? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif OK, how about HF PSK-31 ? I have no problem with that.
But you are onto something about PSK31 and even RTTY. Kids relate today to text modes. If they saw that on HF, they may actually want to dive in.
I read an interesting parallel to this a few days ago.
Think typical corporate setting. Middle manager calls under-30 new employee, never gets a call back. Middle manager emails this same employee, and may get a brief email reply one out of ten times. Middle manager is getting really peaved. Said manager text messages the under-30 tyro and gets an instant response.
This is happening more than most of us OT's realize...something to think about.
Regards,
-Bruce
Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ Oct. 03 2007,18:20)]Quote[/b] (k1asc @ Oct. 03 2007,13:37)]I respect your opinion.
Google is great but I would take an old curmudgeon for elmer any day over my computer. Specifically for practicing CW...
Google does not reply to my questions...or at least, not very well.
Well, one must ask....are there any other hams in your neighborhood?
Not that I need an elmer, but just for the hell of it, I did a search of hams in my own zip code. Here are the results:
53 hams listed.
8 callsigns that I know, or have known, over the years. One of them is dead, but still on the books. One of them I live with. How she puts up with me, I have no idea. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
The other 45 I have never heard on any ham band in the 16 years I've been licensed. That includes VHF, UHF, and HF.
Pretty sad, eh? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
KI4NGN
10-04-2007, 09:19 AM
Quote[/b] (w4bgn @ Oct. 03 2007,12:45)]I have noticed here locally an increase in new licensees. This is great, but when they become licensed, most hang out on the 2 meter bands, check in the nets a few times, then POOF, they're gone.
A person may be lucky enough to hear some of them a few months later, but not very often.
Any ideas on how to keep them interested???
Pay them.
But seriously, how do you keep anyone interested in anything?
Look at other hobbies, model railroading as an example often used on here. Interests usually begin as a curiosity. They go out and get some basic set, see if it is something they're interested in pursuing. They don't dedicate some room or floor of their house to some elaborate set-up, but just put together something basic to check it out. Perhaps they know of someone who has dedicated some room or floor of their home to this hobby and it seemed fun to them.
So they get their basic setup, play with it some, and realize that they're not really interested, at least not enough to make any investment. Those deeply involved in the hobby say don't go, look at what you can do with this hobby! However, even though they pointed out how much the person was missing by not getting deeper into it, they're missing the point that the person has already decided that they're not interested.
There's a lot of assumption here that a new ham operating only on 2 meter repeaters with an HT must not have any clue what ham radio is all about, which when you get down to basics is communicating with other operators. Perhaps these new ops realized that they just weren't interested after doing just that. Having obtained their license, they must know that hams talk with other hams all over the world. They're aware of it. They just dipped their toes and found that they had no interest.
Radio is not the fun and reward for everyone that it is for those of us who stick with the hobby, and there's nothing you can do to change that.
You can't keep or create interest: all you can do is make people aware of the hobby, and with that awareness they may find an interest.
Mike
I seem to remember some of the results of the last ARRL ReadEX study in 2005 and the one that stuck with me was that almost 50% of new licensees never actually get on the air. This was laid to the lack of an Elmer to assist the new hams.
73
George
K3UD
k4kyv
10-04-2007, 02:35 PM
The problem is, appliance operating is bo-ring. And that's about all the newcomer gets to see these days.
kl7aj
10-04-2007, 03:10 PM
Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ Oct. 03 2007,16:20)]Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ Oct. 03 2007,16:01)]Quote[/b] (k1asc @ Oct. 03 2007,15:55)]Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ Oct. 03 2007,07:20)]Quote[/b] (k1asc @ Oct. 03 2007,13:37)]I respect your opinion.
Google is great but I would take an old curmudgeon for elmer any day over my computer. Specifically for practicing CW...
Google does not reply to my questions...or at least, #not very well.
Well, one must ask....are there any other hams in your neighborhood? #Let's find out WHY people don't have elmers. #We can fix it.
eric
Yes. There are other hams in my neighborhood. There's even a club I used to go to for a while.
Some of the senior members #(seemingly, Extras) could not be bothered with my questions ("what, you don't know?" kinda attitude), other members didn't seem to care and stuck to working the local repeaters, some didn't even know how to power on their own radios....
Not very positive experience. So I took the hint and "kept walking".
When I wonder about stuff, I read. Sometimes, I found my answers, sometimes I don't. #I have even started experiencing by building stuff (I stink at soldering). That's when I wish I could have an elmer to talk to...to bounce ideas off of.
There is another club that I am planning to check out...soon.
Long Beach Hams (http://www.qrz.com/callsign?callsign=NAME&search=Long+Beach&simple=on)
Hi again:
According to the QRZ database there are over 500 hams in Long Beach. #Surely there must be one or two accommodating ones....maybe not in the club. #I'd just start calling! #I'm serious. #We can get to the problem of this Elmer thing...
Let it start with you! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
eric
Eric,
# #If he's in Wrong Beach (grin) he can contact me and I'll get him in touch of some good Elmers. #Or he can settle on myself if his standards aren't TOO high... But I DO wield a mean soldering iron. #There are a LOT of opportunities for operating and Elmering in Long Beach, CA.
See! I tolja so. Now, wasn't that painless!
Thanks.....we need to make these connections all over the place.
eric
kl7aj
10-04-2007, 03:15 PM
Quote[/b] (KB3LIX @ Oct. 03 2007,17:06)]You must be careful with radio clubs. Outwardly, they may APPEAR to be interested in newcomers, but inwardly, they could care less and make it a point to discourage new members.
When I was first licensed, I joined 2 local clubs.
On the surface, the first one seemed to welcome new licensees, they seemed interested in helping to elmer, but once I was a member, several members went out of their way to make me feel unwelcome and one guy made it a point to #embarass me on a 2 meter net one night to make a point that I was new and didn't know squat.
The second club was just the opposite.
The welcomed me with open arms, and I am quite comfortable as a member.
Look around at all the area clubs. They can be as different as night and day. Finding one that you feel comfortable with may be time consuming, but will be well worth the effort. The encouragement and knowledge they have to offer is worth its weight in gold.
Exactly.....I get the same cold shoulder...and I'm CLUB PRESIDENT!!
Quote[/b] (we4au @ Oct. 03 2007,20:44)]Think typical corporate setting. Middle manager calls under-30 new employee, never gets a call back. Middle manager emails this same employee, and may get a brief email reply one out of ten times. Middle manager is getting really peaved. Said manager text messages the under-30 tyro and gets an instant response.
This is happening more than most of us OT's realize...something to think about.
Regards,
-Bruce
Well Bruce, I am in the corporate setting and what I see is the under-30 (u30) employee working on something with a co-worker in the next cube. He has a project and his neighbor owes him an action item update. Our u30 emails his cube neighbor and gets no response so shows up at the Project Meeting saying, "Well I emailed him and he didn't respond so I did MY job!" He/she will not get up and walk around the cube wall to ask the person face to face.
Here's the deal with me.
1.Everyone who works with/for me knows that email is NOT action. Leaving voicemail is NOT action. Action is face to face contact or actual phone contact about issues.
2. You want to be embarrassed by me, just send up an "email flare", you know the kind where a u30 has something to say and CCs your boss, the pope, the president of Rawanda, and Ronald McDonald.
3. I dislike "I really serve a purpose" emails. You know the u30 guy who counts navel lint in a corporation that you never hear from and right after a reorganization, he's calling meetings, publishing directives, etc. so the new bosses will know he's important and actually does something useful.
4. How about the u30 who, when you get on his case about not doing his job, creates a "form" you need to fill out to get him to do anything?
Quote[/b] (k4kyv @ Oct. 04 2007,07:35)]The problem is, appliance operating is bo-ring. And that's about all the newcomer gets to see these days.
You're hitting the nail on the head. I'll even take it another step. Alot of folks are used to being hand-held and entertained. Once they find out they actually need to do things THEMSELVES, they lose interest. Had the ARRL pushed a program in affiliated clubs of regular activities on repeaters and get togethers for NCTs, we'd have retained alot more licensees.
That was my #1 point with the no code petitions. We say we need new hams but we've done little or nothing to see they get on the air once they get a ticket. I believe the two main VE groups should have questionaires of those who pass the test asking "what do you expect to get out of AR". At least we'd know WHY people wanted to get a ticket and perhaps with a few tweaks we might meet some of those needs.
k4kyv
10-04-2007, 03:50 PM
Maybe there's not enough ham radio propaganda in to-day's media to get the young whipper-snappers interested. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Ham Radio Film (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBGIdf0VjQ4)
kl7aj
10-04-2007, 03:53 PM
Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Oct. 04 2007,08:48)]Quote[/b] (k4kyv @ Oct. 04 2007,07:35)]The problem is, appliance operating is bo-ring. #And that's about all the newcomer gets to see these days.
You're hitting the nail on the head. #I'll even take it another step. #Alot of folks are used to being hand-held and entertained. #Once they find out they actually need to do things THEMSELVES, they lose interest. #Had the ARRL pushed a program in affiliated clubs of regular activities on repeaters and get togethers for NCTs, we'd have retained alot more licensees.
That was my #1 point with the no code petitions. We say we need new hams but we've done little or nothing to see they get on the air once they get a ticket. #I believe the two main VE groups should have questionaires of those who pass the test asking "what do you expect to get out of AR". At least we'd know WHY people wanted to get a ticket and perhaps with a few tweaks we might meet some of those needs.
If one thing is obvious, we can't rely on the ARRL or any other entity....like clubs.......but we might very well do it by getting back to serious elmering. We can set up these connections...one of them already happened on this very thread (thanks svd!) The elmers ARE out there. We need to reactivate some of them....we have the perfect tool to do it too....the QRZ database!
If every elmer committed himself to showing a new ham the REAL ham radio...I think our problems will be solved...in fact we might get quality AND numbers!
eric
W3MIV
10-04-2007, 04:05 PM
Much ado about nothing.
The ARRL promotes amateur licenses for the same fundamental reason that GM promotes drivers' licenses. The goal of 30,000 new licensees in the coming year is a worthy one, but has a lot more to do with revenue than it does with the real future of amateur radio. You need to separate this simple fact from your worries about total numbers of licensees, for there is little there that connects with the deeper appeal that fastens a heart and mind and that which merely brings someone sniffing around, like a mutt wandering up an alley and pushing over a few cans.
Amateur radio is very much like education in that it must have an underlying passion else it will fail. If one approaches it in the same fashion that so many attend a high school or college -- simply because it is the expected thing to do -- they will achieve an entry level only to fall away. If, however, they catch the "bug," and not all of them will, they will make whatever effort is needed to pursue their interests.
I see all of this worry about numbers as a time-wasting game, like solitaire; it is only worthwhile if you have nothing better to do. We do not need 650,000 hams, and, indeed, we don't have 650,000 "active" hams. I would put the real figure closer to 350,000 (if that), and, of them, the number of "passionate" amateurs is probably half that or even less. That passionate bunch will carry the day.
KI4NGN
10-04-2007, 04:18 PM
Charlie hit it on the head. Most of you are making some broad assumptions about new operators.
Charlie's idea of posing a question to those taking their first license exam, just for information purposes, as to what the new licensee is expecting to get out of ham radio would be important piece of information to collect. It's fruitless to try to identify the solution to a problem when you only know a symptom, not the root cause of the problem.
The symptom is new ops not staying. The cause is assumed (here at least) to be that they only expose themselves to HT operations. However that is just an assumption. One op may have gotten into it because he was solely interested in local VHF operations, tried it, didn't like it, and all of your talk about introducing him to "real" amateur radio is not going to make any difference.
Charlie is right: find out why the new ops are getting their licenses to begin with.
Mike
Quote[/b] (w4bgn @ Oct. 03 2007,12:45)]I have noticed here locally an increase in new licensees. This is great, but when they become licensed, most hang out on the 2 meter bands, check in the nets a few times, then POOF, they're gone.
A person may be lucky enough to hear some of them a few months later, but not very often.
Any ideas on how to keep them interested???
I'm not sure they have disappeared. If 2 meters isn't a good portal for new entrants, then maybe they learn that quickly and move on to more interesting aspects of the hobby.
I was a little active on the local 2-meter radio when I first was licensed, but now I just check into nets from time to time when I'm in the car at the right time. The reason is simple: my local clubmates do not use that repeater, and the folks who do are talking about social events and such like that are not relevant to me. The repeater that is used by my local club is usually silent--I commute at the wrong times to catch them, and I'm either asleep or at work when they are using the repeater.
So, now I use the 2-meter radio to listen to other conversations occasionally, or to communicate with club mates during club events. That's probably consistent with the original value of the band.
But I'm still active in other aspects of the hobby.
Rick "absent from the local repeater but not from the hobby" Denney
kl7aj
10-04-2007, 04:24 PM
Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Oct. 04 2007,09:05)]Much ado about nothing.
The ARRL promotes amateur licenses for the same fundamental reason that GM promotes drivers' licenses. The goal of 30,000 new licensees in the coming year is a worthy one, but has a lot more to do with revenue than it does with the real future of amateur radio. You need to separate this simple fact from your worries about total numbers of licensees, for there is little there that connects with the deeper appeal that fastens a heart and mind and that which merely brings someone sniffing around, like a mutt wandering up an alley and pushing over a few cans.
Amateur radio is very much like education in that it must have an underlying passion else it will fail. If one approaches it in the same fashion that so many attend a high school or college -- simply because it is the expected thing to do -- they will achieve an entry level only to fall away. If, however, they catch the "bug," and not all of them will, they will make whatever effort is needed to pursue their interests.
I see all of this worry about numbers as a time-wasting game, like solitaire; it is only worthwhile if you have nothing better to do. We do not need 650,000 hams, and, indeed, we don't have 650,000 "active" hams. I would put the real figure closer to 350,000 (if that), and, of them, the number of "passionate" amateurs is probably half that or even less. That passionate bunch will carry the day.
I don't disagree. Numbers, of course, should be secondary....but we should at LEAST be holding our own.
As far as the profit motive and ARRL.....of course you're right on one level...however....I would say an almost insignificant number of these new EMCOMM hams even become ARRL members. How do they help ARRL's bottom line? And I can assure you the ones who drop out after a year...will NEVER contribute a dime to ARRL.
Is ARRL really this self destructive? Sure they might make a buck or two on license manuals, but that's NOTHING like what they could get from long-term memberships.
Something doesn't add up at all.
eric
We presently get about 24,000 - 26,000 new licensees each year. The ARRL seems to want 20% more which might be a doable task.
On the other hand, even with about 25,000 new licensees each year we seem to either drop a bit or gain a bit by the end of the year.
Since the peak number of hams (687,000) was reached in 2003 we have declined by about 32,000 in the overall numbers.
Right now we are seeing a gain, at least in the short term. If the ARRL is able to get 30,000 new licensees in 2008 we should increase the numbers in the ARS database as well as the ARRL membership.
On the other hand, we do not have much of a clue as to how many existing licensees will be removed in the next year. The Novice and Advanced numbers seem to be on an accelerated downward trend. There are about 89,000 of them and they are not making any more. Since 2000 the Novice numbers have dropped by more than half and the Advanced has dropped by more than a third.
73
George
K3UD
Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Oct. 04 2007,09:18)]Charlie is right: find out why the new ops are getting their licenses to begin with.
First off, the OP is only assuming the new ops are not staying by what is observed see on two meters. There are lots of old ops who are not often heard on their local repeaters, even some who spend every evening chasing DX or building stuff, etc.
Secondly, new ops don't know and won't know what there is about amateur radio that will appeal to them. I doubt Charlie's question would be informative because people would say only what they thought others want to hear, not having had an opportunity to form their own opinions strongly.
When I got the license, my reason was that I was bored and needed the challenge of a new and really technical hobby to go along with my other hobbies. I wonder how many new folks, even those who understand their own motivations, would be willing to articulate that. I doubt that I would have done so had I been asked at the VE session. The problem is not in understanding their motivations, but in guiding them to form strong enough motivations to proceed to action. To remain active, I needed to get past the notion of passing the time with a technical hobby (though that motivation is still there), and start forming a plan of action.
This is where it IS important to get them into a local club, or at least under the care of an elmer. There are ways to do that that are not being done. I attended a VE session in my area, but even the club that ran the session didn't bring or supply any materials on their own club, let alone other clubs in the region. That stuff should be passed out to everyone who leaves the session with a CSCE, like a care package. That's when new folks are excited and craving such information.
Rick "fortunate to have already had an elmer" Denney
Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Oct. 04 2007,08:38)]4. How about the u30 who, when you get on his case about not doing his job, creates a "form" you need to fill out to get him to do anything?
At least the u30 came by this one honestly. When it comes to producing useless forms, corporate America has had many decades of practice. And government perfected the art before you or I, or our fathers, we born.
And I would offer...
5. Then there's the standard u30, who, not having proved any ability to do anything in the three-dimensional world, considers himself an expert, writes a resume saying same, and expects a salary that would make someone with 25 years of experience blush.
Rick "older than any of his bosses" Denney
W3MIV
10-04-2007, 05:07 PM
Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ Oct. 04 2007,12:24)]I don't disagree. #Numbers, of course, should be secondary....but we should at LEAST be holding our own.
Why? What advantage do you see to "holding our own" if the numbers merely represent non-participating people who were licensed and do not use their privileges?Quote[/b] ]As far as the profit motive and ARRL.....of course you're right on one level...however....I would say an almost insignificant number of these new EMCOMM hams even become ARRL members. #How do they help ARRL's bottom line? #And I can assure you the ones who drop out after a year...will NEVER contribute a dime to ARRL.
You are making the unwarranted assumption that all or even most of the new licensees are coming into amateur radio solely for the purpose of EmComm. That is not at all true. I have asked questions of many of the groups who show up for tests, and few respond that their goal is to work EmComm. That is more of a myth here on QRZ than I have found in the real world. Much of that "rap" has come from focused groups that were, indeed, brought to license classes and testing sessions for that purpose alone, but that is NOT as widespread as many believe. Most of the testing sessions are not being conducted with a view to bringing in new whackers.
Quote[/b] ]Is ARRL really this self destructive? #Sure they might make a buck or two on license manuals, but that's NOTHING like what they could get from long-term memberships.
I suspect you have a bee in your bonnet that does not fit the reality. League membership is increasing. Those who are joining the ARRL are doing so for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which is QST -- a magazine that, despite what you might read on this forum -- is still much prized by a large number of amateurs. I will be attending a small ham fest at the Howard County fair grounds this Sunday, and I would bet that we will enroll or renew ten or a dozen memberships.
Quote[/b] ]Something doesn't add up at all.
What doesn't always add up, Eric, is the stuff we frequently read on this forum. It doesn't always add up because a lot of it is stale baloney.
KI4OXD
10-04-2007, 05:31 PM
Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ Oct. 03 2007,22:45)]Maybe DHS needs to set up a seperate Radio Service strictly for EMCOMM training and preparation; sort of a Public Service "auxiliary," outside of the Amateur frequencies. #Maybe in the GMRS band; registered participants could get the license fee waived, and the radio equipment for most of them would be less expensive than Amateur equipment, and already FCC certified.
GMRS would be the worst possible place to try this. Since the FCC in its infinite wisdom let FRS be Combined with GMRS in one cheap package, GMRS has been going downhill. You think CB is bad? Listen in on FRS/GMRS in any major city. The only saving grace is they have a shorter range. I expect the MURS/Marine combos will eventually have the same problems if they ever come down in price.
I don't know where you got the idea that the equipment for GMRS is cheaper than Amateur. Serious GMRS users use business or public service radios that are also part 95 accepted, not the bubble-pack crud. If they don't also have an Amateur license it's a good chunk of change to be used on a total of 16 channels. I will say that Icom makes a decent GMRS HT at a reasonable price.
Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Oct. 04 2007,10:07)]You are making the unwarranted assumption that all or even most of the new licensees are coming into amateur radio solely for the purpose of EmComm. That is not at all true. I have asked questions of many of the groups who show up for tests, and few respond that their goal is to work EmComm.
Heck, I might have answered "emcomm" if asked at the VE session. My wife works for a federal agency that does disaster relief (now, WHO might THAT be?) and I thought it might be handy to have that connection if she's ever deployed. I would want to go with her (for obvious reasons) but still have something useful to do while there.
But then when I became involved with the local club, that unformed and shallow motivation was washed away because of two reasons:
1. The attitude of the whackers, and
2. All the classes, background checks, etc., required by ARES, the Red Cross, and so on, which, at the end of the day, just didn't appeal to me.
Not all folks interested in emcomm are whackers, of course, but I realized that my real motivation was in exploring the ability to make difficult contacts using radio, without using any intervening infrastructure. That's what excited me in my first real activities, and that's what keeps me motivated. It's a more mature motivation, and able to maintain momentum through stiffer competition.
Rick "thinking even whackers-in-training might be salvageable" Denney
K0RGR
10-04-2007, 05:36 PM
No, I would put the number of active hams much lower, maybe 1/3 of all licensees - roughly the same as ARRL members. At least the ARRL members probably take a few minutes to read QST every month.
I think there are several big problems, but I am not in agreement about the EMCOMM folks. I know several really good hams who are only in it for EMCOMM reasons, and one in particular who started out that way and has become a really devoted all-around ham. People have many reasons for getting into ham radio, and EMCOMM is one of them. What I don't like to see is whole CERT teams getting ham licenses, or entire volunteer fire departments, because I strongly suspect they're intending to misuse it! But the individual ham who wants to do SKYWARN or help with the local parade is just fine - we've had those folks in the hobby for many years, and some of them are good friends of mine.
We do need to find out what brings people into ham radio in the first place.
I teach Technician classes, so I get to see these new recruits at close hand, yet I am often surprised at their interests. I would say that 50% of them are actually interested in traditional ham radio, while the others are divided between EMCOMM, SKYWARN, and "other". A frequent "other" is a desire to "spread the word of Christ around the world" - shudder.
There are a lot of reasons that the newcomers lose interest. One is that they run into technical problems and can't get any help. I think there are enough resources available to get them past those obstacles. What we've talked about doing in our radio club is to assign an Elmer to each newcomer - we haven't done this yet, but we're talking about it.
Another reason is that 2 meter FM is a waste of time in too many areas. 30 years ago, I'd have been happy with a 2 meter license. Today, even with IRLP, EchoLink, and APRS, I would be pretty bored if I was a newbie. There just isn't enough activity on VHF, and I'm afraid that all really active people have now upgraded to general and moved up to HF.
I think we need to do everything we can to de-emphasize 2 meter FM and emphasize the Tech HF privileges.
10 meter SSB is a powerful thing. But even more powerful is HF CW. One of the things I'm planning to do this winter is to build up a couple of the inexpensive CW transceiver kits - crystal controlled - and hook it to a computer running CWType and CWGet. I'm doing this so I can demonstrate how a Tech can really use those privileges for very little money.
I do believe that a rising sunspot cycle will help a lot. The bottom of the cycle has always been a very tough time for ham radio recruitment.
Quote[/b] (kr9d @ Oct. 04 2007,10:04)]5. Then there's the standard u30, who, not having proved any ability to do anything in the three-dimensional world, considers himself an expert, writes a resume saying same, and expects a salary that would make someone with 25 years of experience blush.
Rick "older than any of his bosses" DenneyRick,
You have paraphrased the pro code argument. I am suprised you didn't see the paradox your quote suggests.
KD4AKP
10-04-2007, 06:11 PM
Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ Oct. 03 2007,12:49)]The fact is, most newer hams have never seen anything with an actual knob on it, much less, actually heard shortwave.
Most ham QSOs are not intrinsically interesting. Listening to DXers exchange signal reports and callsigns is not fascinating. Listening to elder rag-chewers repeat the political opinions that have been programmed into them by right-wing talk show hosts is not scintillating. I can hear Rush on local broadcast; I don't need to spend $1500 on HF gear to get that stuff.
At least there's some variety of people on the repeaters. You might actually hear a young person, or a woman, or a "person of color" on VHF. Here in the south at least, HF is strictly a hen-pecked right-wing old white men's club. The confederate flag stickers you see on peoples' cars at the VE sessions and club meetings make it clear: "if yew aint just like us, you ain't realy welcome here."
Look at this
Diversity Policy (http://www.nparc.on.ca/content/diversity) of a Canadian ham club. Can you imagine a club in the US, especially in the south, putting a policy like this on its website? Three quarters of the members would resign in protest.
People drift out of ham radio because (at least around here) it's a very homogenous group, and if you're not an exact match for the racial, linguistic, lifestyle, political and viewpoint profile, you are not welcome.
Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Oct. 04 2007,10:40)]You have paraphrased the pro code argument. I am suprised you didn't see the paradox your quote suggests.
Not really, though I'm not as opposed to the "pro-code" argument as you might think.
There are many aspects to amateur radio that live in three dimensions (while passing a test--any test--only lives in two). Many of these are unrelated to code skills. As I have said before, people will learn code if it's useful and fun within the hobby, and they'll learn discover that after they are licensed more readily than before.
But a question: How many of the new members are u30's? I see new folks that are older than u30's, or teens, who haven't yet demonstrated more than a u30 prediliction. The u30 contingent, which is very strong in these parts in the general working world, is notably absent from the local club (and from the local repeater, for that matter).
They might come into the hobby when they grow up. Better then than now, for them and for AR.
Rick "not seeing the paradox" Denney
W3MIV
10-04-2007, 06:50 PM
Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Oct. 04 2007,13:36)]I teach Technician classes, so I get to see these new recruits at close hand, yet I am often surprised at their interests. I would say that 50% of them are actually interested in traditional ham radio, while the others are divided between EMCOMM, SKYWARN, and "other". A frequent "other" is a desire to "spread the word of Christ around the world" - shudder.
I suspect part of that is your neck of the woods.
Quote[/b] ]There are a lot of reasons that the newcomers lose interest. One is that they run into technical problems and can't get any help. I think there are enough resources available to get them past those obstacles. What we've talked about doing in our radio club is to assign an Elmer to each newcomer - we haven't done this yet, but we're talking about it.
If you have the people, and they are the "right" kind to be good elmers, that is an excellent idea. The clubs really are the heart and soul of our future -- perhaps even more now than in decades past.
Quote[/b] ]Another reason is that 2 meter FM is a waste of time in too many areas. 30 years ago, I'd have been happy with a 2 meter license. Today, even with IRLP, EchoLink, and APRS, I would be pretty bored if I was a newbie. There just isn't enough activity on VHF, and I'm afraid that all really active people have now upgraded to general and moved up to HF.
I think we need to do everything we can to de-emphasize 2 meter FM and emphasize the Tech HF privileges.
10 meter SSB is a powerful thing. But even more powerful is HF CW. One of the things I'm planning to do this winter is to build up a couple of the inexpensive CW transceiver kits - crystal controlled - and hook it to a computer running CWType and CWGet. I'm doing this so I can demonstrate how a Tech can really use those privileges for very little money.
More good points. I think a large part of the "problem" with CW is that lots of newcomers have been exposed to excessive amounts of the kinds of hogwash and taradiddle we see on this website and not nearly enough of the real world of CW and the fun it can be. Given a talented teacher as an elmer, a whole new world can open to new Techs -- once they slide over that hump and their eyes open wide as they realize they really ARE working in Morse, they will be "ours" for life.
Quote[/b] ]I do believe that a rising sunspot cycle will help a lot. The bottom of the cycle has always been a very tough time for ham radio recruitment.
True. It may also bring many of the "dead" back to life to our surprise.
How'd you get so damned smart, anyway?
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
kl7aj
10-04-2007, 06:54 PM
Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Oct. 04 2007,11:50)]The clubs really are the heart and soul of our future -- perhaps even more now than in decades past.
Count yourself lucky. Our club (which has been in continuous existence since the late 1930s) has ben ENTIRELY hijacked by the EMCOMM Nazis. I am forming a new club, the Northern Radio Experimenters (NOrthRex) however.
It has to be the RIGHT club. The OF's that make up most clubs I've been in are NOT the answer.
eric
KD5HLG
10-04-2007, 07:10 PM
I believe that one problem is all the argument over code/no code, newbie/old timer.
also i have discovered that a lot of hf is going the way of 2 meters, where as if they don't know you they wont talk to you, and in some cases they simply talk to one another in a way that a new ham has no chance of entering the QSO. In some cases i have heard they don't ever ID.
Just my personal observation over the last 10 years.
73's
KD5HLG
ernest
KD6NIG
10-04-2007, 07:39 PM
I have to agree with some of what AKP has to say. Thankfully I don't see too many vehicles here with antennas, ham plates, and the 'stars and bars' on the back.
But, I digress.
Upon thinking about it I just realized that I have crossed another year being a tech, so after I compose this, I have to go correct my number of years in my signature.
I've had quite a few friends prod me to go get my general. I, in fact, had it, sans code, as I took the written when my wife took her Tech test, so she wouldn't be the only person taking an exam. Thats how busy the VE session we attended was. So I took the general written at the same time. Had the FCC moved about 6 months quicker, I could have "upgraded" with my 365D CSCE. But the chips didn't fall that way, and honestly, I didn't really care that much.
I guess there are a few reasons. All could be equated to lazy, I suppose, but I just don't see a reason to upgrade.
1) I don't see HF as a holy grail. Its....just not that exciting to me. I have participated in a few Field Days, but after an hour or so, "599, your call" just got...boring and tedious to me. Thats why I cannot see investing in HF gear. Well, I have one radio that would do it, but......
1b) I live in a small lot in the middle of the city. Though I do have antennas up, I don't want to push my luck. I see a lot of people strut around and say "I'm licenced, I can put these up" etc. But I choose good neighborly relations against antennas. Which is another reason HF wouldn't be good for me-my neighbors are pretty close. Wires I can get away with (in fact I do have a G5RV up so I can listen to HF) but from what I've heard, I'm just not too excited to go to the trouble and expense to go there. I already have to watch power on 6m too since I have neighbors with old TVs (one of which is my landlord!).
2) The whole hazing thing with "NCE, NCG" etc. I'm accustomed enough to NCT, I'll stick with that.
3) The fact that my ham radio activities will not be (gasp!) enhanced by having a General or higher license. Sure, I could go out and get it, and I'm often ribbed about being 'too lazy' to go out and get it, because I know I could pass the test, but everything I do on ham radio has thus far not required that class of license. I equate it to myself going to DMV and getting a Class A license. I know I could do it, sure there would be fees involved, but I don't need it to drive my S-10 or HHR around. Same with Ham Radio. I don't need a General license to:
-Use repeaters on 50MHZ and above
-Use SSB on 50MHZ and above
-Run a packet node and packet station
-Run a weather station with uploads to FindU and other places (in fact, honestly, I don't even need the license for this at all, I would just be CWXXXX instead of my callsign, but since I can be my callsign, I use that instead)
-Run APRS tracking on both my vehicles
Sure, there are plenty of other things I could be doing in the hobby. But there are plenty of things I can explore with my current class already.
4) The fact I just have too much life stuff going on. Yeah, yeah, its up to me to take the time to explore the hobby. But heck, I have enough going on. I remember putting my best effort forth to learn code back when my wife was studying. But once I started suddenly having to work 12 hour shifts for a while, all I thought about when I got home was sleep, not radio.
5) The general banter I hear about HF now on here and on the air myself. I'm just not INTERESTED in some of the stuff I hear on the air. I'll listen to stuff on HF and most of the time I'll find myself turning the dial after 30 seconds. I have caught some interesting conversations, but more often than not, I'm just back to 2m, or turning up the scanner, or whatever. Just doesn't pique my interest.
So not all of us are lazy, we just don't see the point of 'climbing the ladder.'
But I'm sorry to say it, there are people who have my license class who, after a year, have already abandoned it. Either they had a bad experience (I've had a few of those, ON AIR, I don't count QRZ, as this is the internet) and I could probably easily at least take one of them and say "that ruined it for me, thats it, I'm selling everything!" but I didn't let it get to me. There are plenty of people who would take it personally though. Plus, with the simple fact that we've got cellphones that do everything but complete the QSO for you......
I view the decline of Ham Radio to be due to technology (we have things that you don't need a license for anymore, and they simply work-you don't have to wait for the sunspot cycle, etc) due to some people being promised something ham radio isn't in order to "try and bring the numbers up", etc. Some of it is animosity, people being berated for what level license they have, the use of "10-4" etc, but I think that number is far less. Simply put, people just aren't interested. Trying to drum up interest by selling it as something it isn't, is not the way to do it. People who stay in the hobby have a genuine interest in RADIO in some aspect. Period, the end. The rest of it comes off of other interests. Some people buy new radios, put them in and mash PTT. Some people build them from scratch. Most are in between. But thats just the way it is with any hobby.
But I honestly think Ham Radio was starting to decline once the mobile phone came about. Ham Radio for many was a personal or emergency communication device. Although there are still some areas of the US where you can't use a cell phone, it spelled the beginning of the end. Add in MP3 players, cameras, and the like to said device, and kids don't want a ham radio. Period. The end.
Now I can see some people trying to bring technology into Ham Radio. Not all of it is bad, but a lot of it seems like an effort to make it an extension of the internet. The bottom line is, the lines should be drawn and kept drawn, but this is just my opinion. The time to use such things in an attempt to win young minds over isn't going to work. Ham Radio is unique because of what it is, and has been-not trying to turn it into an extension of the internet. The only results you'll get out of this is people even worse than me-they get a license simply to use the internet portion of it. They won't even PTT (at least not with a microphone) once. Ever.
We just need to face the fact we're going to get smaller. Hopefully not small enough that we are eliminated and the frequencies we are afforded are chopped away, but the bottom line is, we're here because we like the art of radio. We like to communicate with means other than a telephone. Some of us like to go beyond that and build antennas out of anything and put a signal into the air. The list goes on.
But don't blame CB, the loss of code, "memorizing the answers" and the "dumbing down" of Ham Radio for its downfall. It began falling when the cell phone became the norm. Sure, the other things I just listed CONTRIBUTE to some, but what is killing ham radio?
-Kids think computers, IM, games, etc are cool
-Kids GOTTA HAVE a cell phone. It seems like by age 10 they are carrying one. And they can't keep it off their ear!
-Technology to kids is cool. Talking to someone on a radio isn't-they can't gossip about the guys they like in high school on the local repeater. They can talk about whatever they like online or with a cell phone.
Its just not appealing anymore. All we can do is do our best to retain those who come in, and hope for the best.
Technology has got us beat though. And yeah, when disaster strikes, we're the only ones left sometime. Thats not enough for the average kid-they know the cellphone will be working in a few days. That argument doesn't fly anymore. Either they are into radio, or they aren't. Promising them the moon and giving them a model of it doesn't work anymore.
We need to accept this and move on, and enjoy. Pondering this doesn't mean anything anymore. Technology has us beat. Hands down.
K9STH
10-04-2007, 11:20 PM
NIG:
Over 90 percent of the population of the United States has no idea as to what the "Stars and Bars" looks like. This particular flag is also known as the "First National of the Confederacy". Go to
http://www.confederateflags.org/national/FOTCs_b.htm
for an illustration.
More people are familar with the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia which were generally 48 inches by 48 inches and consisted of a blue Cross of St. Andrew with either 12 stars or 13 stars (these stars could be either white or gold on the vast majority of flags). Go to
http://www.confederateflags.org/army/FOTCanv.htm#3bunt
for an illustration.
What most people call the "Stars and Bars" is NOT either the real "Stars and Bars" nor the "Battle Flag". The rectangular (usually a 3 x 5 ratio) red flag with a blue Cross of St. Andrew and 13 white stars is the Confederate Naval (or "Navy") Jack. Unfortunately, this flag has been adopted by various "hate" groups and has generally become the "standard" of such groups instead of being recognized for its original purpose. Go to
http://www.confederateflags.org/navy/FOTCnavy63.htm
and scroll down to the bottom of the page for an illustration of the Naval Jack. This flag was NOT flown as the "national flag" but was flown at the bow of the vessel. The "national flag" was flown from the stern of the vessel. There is an illustration of the "proper" location of the various flags at the very top of this link.
Glen, K9STH
K1CJS
10-04-2007, 11:45 PM
Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ Oct. 03 2007,18:20)]Well, one must ask....are there any other hams in your neighborhood? #Let's find out WHY people don't have elmers. #We can fix it.
I think the problem is with society in general. Years ago, everybody knew their next door neighbors and the families in the neighborhood. If someone needed a hand, chances were that someone in the neighborhood was able to help out.
Nowadays, with the hectic schedules people have, there aren't many hours left in a week where people can actually lend a hand to their neighbors. Almost every hour of every day is taken up by work or the many different things that have to be done just to live. Then there is the transporting of kids to and from school, sports, dance classes, karate classes, etc. There is just no time left unless one gives up sleep as a bad habit.
This also cuts into the time hams have to pursue the hobby, and is why usually only the older retired hams are heard on the bands.
I think that is the crux of the matter, and the reason behind the bands seeming deserted during normal hours where there used to be many people on them, and also the seeming disinterest of newcomers after they've 'tasted the soup' so to speak. And yes, too many have had only Campbells--and not Progresso. ;-)
WA0LYK
10-04-2007, 11:56 PM
When I got interested in the early 60's, it was with the old console AM/SW radios. Ham transmissions in AM and SW with AM transmissions were still common and it was exciting to hear these stations and wonder about what life was like where they were.
After pulling the back off and seeing that big old multi-gang capacitor rotating while hearing stations on different frequencies and seeing all those tubes glowing got the how the hell does this work juices flowing.
Learning about electromagnetic waves and how they could induce a small electric current in an antenna that could be amplified, detected, and played on a speaker was just fascinating!
What we are seeing is society in the US changing from a manufacturing base to a service base. No one cares how anything works internally anymore because we don't make it, someone in another country does. Where do you think the engineers, technicians, and factory workers would come from if we moved manufacturing back into the US? From overseas.
The only things kids want to know these days is "how" a game works, not the programming, artwork, or game machine internals. Simply connect the AC/TV cords, plug in the game cartridge, and then "learn" the game.
Whether this ends up being good or bad, only history will record and probably long after I'm gone.
Jim
WA0LYK
KC9GUZ
10-05-2007, 12:13 AM
IMHo to be a serious ham, radio MUST be in ones blood. I know its in mine as several family members that i knew/know were involved in radio in one way or another. My G/F was a radio serviceman and technician up until the day he died (he kept his service lisense active and actually renewed it one week before his death) and i always was around him or in his shop. But to digress, there is interest out there but we have to get the ones that have the serious interest more involved in HF operating and homebrew antennas and radio gear rather than some stale ol' 2 meter handheld talking to some dusty ol' repeater. Thats not ham radio to me. JMHO!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
KI4NGN
10-05-2007, 10:26 AM
Quote[/b] (kr9d @ Oct. 04 2007,09:46)]Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Oct. 04 2007,09:18)]Charlie is right: find out why the new ops are getting their licenses to begin with.
First off, the OP is only assuming the new ops are not staying by what is observed see on two meters. There are lots of old ops who are not often heard on their local repeaters, even some who spend every evening chasing DX or building stuff, etc.
Secondly, new ops don't know and won't know what there is about amateur radio that will appeal to them. I doubt Charlie's question would be informative because people would say only what they thought others want to hear, not having had an opportunity to form their own opinions strongly.
When I got the license, my reason was that I was bored and needed the challenge of a new and really technical hobby to go along with my other hobbies. I wonder how many new folks, even those who understand their own motivations, would be willing to articulate that. I doubt that I would have done so had I been asked at the VE session. The problem is not in understanding their motivations, but in guiding them to form strong enough motivations to proceed to action. To remain active, I needed to get past the notion of passing the time with a technical hobby (though that motivation is still there), and start forming a plan of action.
This is where it IS important to get them into a local club, or at least under the care of an elmer. There are ways to do that that are not being done. I attended a VE session in my area, but even the club that ran the session didn't bring or supply any materials on their own club, let alone other clubs in the region. That stuff should be passed out to everyone who leaves the session with a CSCE, like a care package. That's when new folks are excited and craving such information.
Rick "fortunate to have already had an elmer" Denney
Exactly, the op was assuming, and many were agreeing with him.
Your second statement has nothing to do with my post.
You said that Charlie's question would not be informative because the new people have not had an opportunity to form their opinions. Who said anything about asking their opinion about anything?
They got their ticket for a reason! They didn't just wake up one morning and out of the clear blue sky decide to get an amateur radio license. What was their reason?
You said that your reason is that you were bored and wanted another technical hobby. Great...that was your reason.
I can think of many others:
I've been SWL'ing and find the idea of communicating with other people around ther world fascinating.
I've always been interested in radio communications.
Someone in my family is a ham, and I always thought it looked like a lot of fun.
I was a CB'er, and like radio comms, but got tired of CB.
I've read about the growth of digital comms in ham radio and that's something I'm very interested in.
A lot of my friends talk to each other every day from their cars with VHF radios, and I'd like to join them.
I read that hams often volunteer their services during times of emergeny, and that sounds like a great way to help my community.
I'm an emergency responder, and my associates and I were encouraged to get a ham license.
I read about ham radio in the newspaper, thought it looked interesting.
And on and on.
Reasons, what they had in mind, when they decided to prepare for (study or memorize), schedule, pay for, and take their test for an amateur radio license.
This could even be a sheet with a list of answers at the end of the test with a write in for something not on the list. I'm sure that a full page (or more) of real answers could easily be listed.
The VECs could accumulate these answers, and ten years after this started, each year it could be noted which licenses were not renewed, and some correlations started between why people got their ticket but did not remain with the hobby. I'm not saying it would be accurate because there are many variables, but at least we might see trends.
The problem is exactly that of understanding their motivations. They have an interest or they don't. You obviously had an interest, and made the decision to pursue it: your plan of action. If you found that you had no interest, your plan of action would have been to abandon it and move on.
So, the question is why did someone who is not active and lets their ticket expire get that license to begin with? If that is not understood, then there will never be an understanding about how to retain members. Most #answers about why they left are going to be tied to why they got into it to begin with.
Mike
They were never serious to begin with.
Since the test are so simple that a monkey can pass.
They thought that they would impress their CB buddies and get a license.
Then they found out that they did not like to operate under rules and regulations so they left.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
KB1JCY
10-06-2007, 02:54 PM
Quote[/b] (k1asc @ Oct. 03 2007,08:37)]I respect your opinion.
Google is great but I would take an old curmudgeon for elmer any day over my computer. Specifically for practicing CW...
Google does not reply to my questions...or at least, not very well.
Google and intarweb forums can't show you how this stuff works. People have different learning styles. There's a class of new ham whom are either visual or hands-on learners. If you show them how this stuff works, they'll grok it. Frankly it's a total cop-out to think that Web forums will replace face-to-face elmering.
I blogged about my frustration with regard to the lack of elmering:
http://www.kb1jcy.org/?q=node/10
VO1GXG
10-06-2007, 03:22 PM
Quote[/b] (k1asc @ Oct. 03 2007,10:09)]Quote[/b] (ki4iti @ Oct. 03 2007,05:05)]Others, perhaps, simply haven't managed to connect with someone who can fuel their interest and help them learn. Those need a good Elmer.
I agree 100%.
I wish I had an elmer. Never had one.
same here!
After i got my license the memebers of SONRA have become very helpful people but no real elmers for me http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Well I think people these days are used to being spoon fed entertainment. Amateur radio has no spoon feeding. Yet, it is obvious people are not getting on the air and we don't know why. So I say ask them.
You can ask them right after they get their ticket, or you can call them after they give up (good luck identifying those ones). Seems like asking in the beginning makes more sense. We can find out if our "PR" is giving a wrong message and what if any changes need to be made to get them on the air and keep more of these folks.
Businesses do polling every day. Are we too smart or are we just dumb?
K4GUN
10-06-2007, 04:08 PM
My local club has a weekly breakfast at McDonalds every Saturday and I have only missed one since becoming licensed. This morning, the subject of new hams came up. One OT asked, "Where are they? Do we have any other than GUN over here?" I thought about it and I'm pretty sure that I'm the only newbie that has become a regular in the past year. There are a couple of others that show up to meetings every now and then, but no new regulars.
I'm not sure why, but this smacked me over the head like a ton of bricks. This conversation, combined with this thread is really getting me thinking. I got into ham for two reasons. The primary one was ECOMM. Not from a CERT point of view, but from a personal communication and preparedness standpoint. I wanted to be able to communicate with home in the event of a terrorist attack or natural disaster while I was at work. My secondary motive was to be able to call for help if I was ever injured while hunting alone. My cell phone doesn't work where I hunt.
Both parts of this motive are things that are pretty easy to set up and don't require a General or Extra ticket to accomplish. When I started out, I had absolutely no plans to upgrade. Then, I hooked up with a really good club. I actually joined two clubs and the difference is stark. One has a lot of really nice old guys and a couple of women as well. They are warm and welcoming and have really tried to help me along. They have given me videos, CDs and books to help me learn more. They are great people, but also just about as boring as melted ice cream. The other club is a bit younger, but not much. They, however, are active, exciting and just a bit nuts. Its one of the coolest mix of guys I've ever run into. They genuinely enjoy each others company.
It was this second group that really hooked me. They don't just have monthly meetings. They have the after meeting meeting at the local pizza joint. They have weekly breakfast at McDonalds. They have weekly lunches that are arranged over the repeater. They are big into contesting and make big events out of them. Even if you're not a big contester, you can enjoy the camaraderie, food and beer. Its the personalities that make the club fun.
Even if I had chosen to stick with e-comm and personal survival as my only interests in radio, I would still be active in the club. I wouldn't be criticized for it and would still be included as a valued member.
I don't think any of this answers the question of how we attract and retain new members, but maybe it can get some thoughts going in the right direction. I'm crazy about this hobby and really want to help it grow.
N4CYA
10-06-2007, 05:58 PM
As a 6 month old Amateur Radio operator I must say from what I've seen and heard over the 2 meter partion of the frequencies we have now days alot of name calling/arguments/trash talking plus even more. When I lived in Tennessee I wanted to talk on the 220 repeater and it was a open repeater so I gave my call sign over the air and the next thing happen I got mis-treated and some other words I am not gonna say on here because it's not something you do not want to hear, the thing I do not get the owner of the 220 frequency was letting the guy from what I found out that was his best friend and he didn't even warn him or nothing. Another I've heard over the air 2/220/440 frequencies is the ''ham clicks'' as they call themselves they won't say two words to the new guys that are wanting to talk to them to say hello and QSO with them and so forth and these guys are wanting to know why the younger crowd isn't interested in Ham Radio. I got out of the hobby for about 5 1/2 months due to all the trash talking and I am hoping to get back into it when I get to Texas in the next month. This is only my opinion. 73' Jamie (N4CYA)
N8UZE
10-06-2007, 06:26 PM
Quote[/b] (KB1JCY @ Oct. 06 2007,10:54)]Quote[/b] (k1asc @ Oct. 03 2007,08:37)]I respect your opinion.
Google is great but I would take an old curmudgeon for elmer any day over my computer. Specifically for practicing CW...
Google does not reply to my questions...or at least, #not very well.
Google and intarweb forums can't show you how this stuff works. People have different learning styles. There's a class of new ham whom are either visual or hands-on learners. If you show them how this stuff works, they'll grok it. Frankly it's a total cop-out to think that Web forums will replace face-to-face elmering.
I blogged about my frustration with regard to the lack of elmering:
http://www.kb1jcy.org/?q=node/10
The other half of the coin is that many of us willing to elmer and who have expressed this willingness time after time get no takers.
That is also very frustrating.
k6jpd
10-06-2007, 11:19 PM
first of all, let me say that if anything negative is ever said to or about me on a forum it will have no damaging effect on me, i have pretty thick skin.
(rant on)
....... but,.... i have seen it many times on THIS forum that a person gets flamed, called stupid or lazy, or old, ect. and sooner or later someone chimes in and says words to the effect of: "this is not really radio, it's the internet".
WRONG!!!
is that what radio is about? being nice and polite in a QSO on the air with a person... and then later stereo typing them and blasting away on an internet forum?
yes, i have seen comments on this forum about "he's really not a bad person face to face, he's really a nice person on the air"... and then the flames begin.
"it's not radio, it's the internet" ... no,what it really is, is two faced bully tactics.
radio used to (and perhaps still does) have a "gentlemans" concept. does that stop when you turn the radio off and turn the computer on?
like i said, i have thick skin, but how many others have "voted with their feet" due in no small part (IMO) to the actions of a few right here in T&O. try to convince them that this forum is not really radio.
(rant off)
ka0gkt
10-07-2007, 01:26 AM
Quote[/b] (w4bgn @ Oct. 03 2007,12:45)]I have noticed here locally an increase in new licensees. This is great, but when they become licensed, most hang out on the 2 meter bands, check in the nets a few times, then POOF, they're gone.
Rapture?
73 DE KAØGKT/7
--Steve
W4HAY
10-07-2007, 03:23 PM
I'm running into a few that have filtered down onto CW, often apologizing for their 'bad fist'. But some of them send better than us OFs, and I tell 'em so!
WA9SVD
10-07-2007, 04:40 PM
It USED to be (Long, long ago, in a galaxy far, far away, apparently) that people got into Amateur Radio because they were intensely interested in RADIO and electronics, and the various aspects that AR provided, such as talking to people in other parts of the world, learning more about RF and radio propagation, experimenting on VHF/UHF and above, etc., and enjoyed learning about antenna construction, and such technical apsects of Amateur Radio. (And were willing to withstand the excruciating pain and torture of learning enough Morse to pass the code test required at the time.) THEN, they became interested in things like Emcomm (nee Civil Defense) passing NTS Messages; later SKYWARN and the like.
NOW, people with an interest in EMCOMM or SKYWARN get a license, and suddenly find out there's a technical side to Amateur Radio, and that OT's expect them to have at LEAST a smattering of technical knowledge, whether they have an electronics background or not. (Heaven forbid an EMCOMMer should know anything technical.) So there ARE a few that actually get interested in RADIO and electronics, and some that just stay in the Service for EMCOMM reasons, because that fits their original intended use and vision. Others are disillusioned that they might actually have to posess or gain some technical knowledge (such as how antennas work or don't work, how to program their H-T) and drift away by the time their initial license term expires.
I don't fault that last group; they were "sold" something that was not suited to them. It's just too bad that they have taken up (and wasted) some of their and our resources and effort on something not suited to their liking.
Amateur Radio is NOT for everyone, and shouldn't be forced upon anyone, nor should anyone be coerced into becoming licensed. THAT is the surest way to create people who say Amateur Radio is not worthwhile and actively discourage others who may have a true interest.
Quote[/b] (w4bgn @ Oct. 03 2007,12:45)]I have noticed here locally an increase in new licensees. This is great, but when they become licensed, most hang out on the 2 meter bands, check in the nets a few times, then POOF, they're gone.
A person may be lucky enough to hear some of them a few months later, but not very often.
Any ideas on how to keep them interested???
I'm sure this isn't the rule, but I ran into a new ham about a year ago, heard him on the air once or twice then never heard him again. A few months later I noticed his call on APRS, using his only radio for that task, since he found more interest with that than he did with the local repeaters.
73 de Joe NE3R
WA9SVD
10-07-2007, 05:08 PM
Quote[/b] (ne3r @ Oct. 07 2007,09:56)]Quote[/b] (w4bgn @ Oct. 03 2007,12:45)]I have noticed here locally an increase in new licensees. This is great, but when they become licensed, most hang out on the 2 meter bands, check in the nets a few times, then POOF, they're gone.
A person may be lucky enough to hear some of them a few months later, but not very often.
Any ideas on how to keep them interested???
I'm sure this isn't the rule, but I ran into a new ham about a year ago, heard him on the air once or twice then never heard him again. A few months later I noticed his call on APRS, using his only radio for that task, since he found more interest with that than he did with the local repeaters.
73 de Joe NE3R
APRS is as legitimate a use as any. Perhaps the fellow has upgraded and moved onto HF, or is pursuing SSB/CW on the higher bands. Repeaters can get very boring very quickly in many areas.
KI4WCA
10-07-2007, 10:15 PM
I am sure the typical clicks and in groups are sometimes unwelcoming or offstanding to some newcomers.Most of the hams I have met have been wonderful.I am 45 and rabidly into radio, and have been a swl for decades.I am one who waited for code to go away.Oddly, now I am trying to learn it since building qrp rigs is so easy,And I have wonderful receivers.I think newcomers can be very scared when OTs talk several miles over their heads.And few people want to feel stupid.They may feel that they already passed a test...and dont like to be challenged.I have heard some say only hams who are really good on cw are real hams.This is of course poison to a newbie who cant do 25WPM.Some people will lose interest, because radio is not magic to them.For those who love the magic, being treated poorly is hardly a deterrent.They wont go away.This is a very small group today I suspect.But it is the group that will continue the tradition.Converting others to the magic is fun for me, but increasingly difficult in todays connected world.
KB2FCV
10-08-2007, 08:23 PM
There's definitely more to ham radio than just 2 meter repeaters. To me the hobby is about trying new things out. I can understand how people can buy a 2m HT as their first rig, try a few QSO's, get bored and move on to something else. There is so much more to ham radio!
For me I am a builder and experimenter. I like trying things in the hobby. Even if I were just limited to VHF... there's still alot there! 6 meters "the magic band", EME (yes, you can do EME with a pretty minimal setup), satellite work, SSTV, Microwave and more. Even with a Tech license there's alot you can do (ok there's some HF now but only CW in the lower bands and 10 meters which is at it's bad point in the sunspot cycle) To me repeaters are just a place to chat with some of your friends or to use when passing through other places. If that's all I had access to.. I'd probably get bored with it too.
I almost never use an HT. Up until this year my only ham HT was an Icom 2AT.. yes an 'antique'. It got used at 2 places - hamfests and field day (for coordinating stuff). I've since upgraded to a VX-170 but that's only because my wife and I are going to Ireland and I want to use some repeaters there. I can count on my hand the number of times I've used the new HT.
This is a hobby with so many different things to offer depending on what your interests are. I guess these new hams have to be urged to try different things out in the hobby to keep it interesting. There's always something new to try!
KB1KIX
10-09-2007, 03:17 AM
Interesting topic.
I noticed this not long after I was licensed a little over 4 years ago. Then I got hooked on building and had a couple of hams I asked questions to give me more questions to look for than answers (that actually worked well for me).
After some discussions here and locally a couple years ago, I felt we needed to get back to the roots of radio - building, learning, trying new things - essentially exploring the many facts of our hobby/service.
When we have a class, we don't push them on their way when they get their CSCE. We invite them back for 3 voluntary classes afterwards helping them look at radios, program radios, build their first antenna (usually the copper pipe j-pole), etc.
PS, on the radio bit, we try to stay off the "shack on a hip" as mentioned earlier - that is almost always mistake number 1!
I also have a committee that schedules a few buildathons each year. QRP projects, antennas, receivers, etc. Just to gather around and learn by doing something.
It does tend to work, and so far we've had good luck getting newer hams more active.
Our club also has a speaker every month on a topic or a demo - that keeps some interest.
I've been to some clubs where it's coffee and donut time and talk about nothing to do with radio - that doesn't help any!
This all works well and good when people actually take a class, get their ticket and continue.
How to get more people in the classes..... that's a good one!
Jonathan
w7lpn
10-09-2007, 06:51 PM
Not many of the True Hams of yester-year are willing to Elmer anymore. They seem either old & tired, or disillusioned, or both.
Anyway, good luck. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif