Icom launch new D-STAR website

[g4tut]

Icom launch new D-STAR website

To support and provide information on this exciting new development in Amateur Radio, Icom UK are setting up a new website. The site will be content rich and will be a comprehensive guide to D-STAR matters.

There will be sections about the history, features and technical matters regarding D-STAR.

There will be several links to many successful forums that have already built-up a wealth of information about setting up and running a D-STAR system.

There will also be an Icom UK forum, which we hope will have some lively debate and hopefully postings about D-STAR in the UK

Please see:
http://www.southgatearc.org/news....ite.htm (http://www.southgatearc.org/news/september2007/icom_launch_dstar_website.htm)

[W9WHE]

I sure wish Icom would explain why it is a good idea for hams to migrate to a digital standard that is INCOMPATABLE with the world-wide APCO 25 digital standard, ESPECIALLY since the entire public safety world is going to APCO 25.

[k9ekg]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Sep. 21 2007,14:10)]I sure with Icom would explain why it is a good idea for hams to migrate to a digital standard that is INCOMPATABLE with the world-wide APCO 25 digital standard, ESPECIALLY since the entire public safety world is going to APCO 25.
If my memory serves me correctly, P25/APCO 25 is almost 20 years old already...if the entire public safety world was going to migrate, it would have done it already. Then you have all the different protocols, OpenSky, etc.

D-Star is a newer and "open" protocol if I am correct, and has been gaining a lot of popularity. I, for one, am going to try it soon.

[k1rfd]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Sep. 21 2007,16:10)]I sure with Icom would explain why it is a good idea for hams to migrate to a digital standard that is INCOMPATABLE with the world-wide APCO 25 digital standard, ESPECIALLY since the entire public safety world is going to APCO 25.
As I understand it, one of the problems with APCO-25 for hams is that it is a proprietary Motorola technology, and thus an APCO-25 radio cannot be manufactured without obtaining a license from Motorola. There is also the question of whether there would be sufficient openly-available documentation on the protocol to ensure its legality under Part 97.

[W0DLR]

Why invest money in it, it may go the way of Sony VHF Beta went. Just didn't fly. You know hams are notorious at time for being tight fisted, they let 220 practically go dead, so I doubt that they will fork over a bunch of money for this "new" technology from Icom.

[N7MK]

Quote[/b] (k1rfd @ Sep. 21 2007,14:45)][quote=W9WHE,Sep. 21 2007,16:10]
As I understand it, one of the problems with APCO-25 for hams is that it is a proprietary Motorola technology, and thus an APCO-25 radio cannot be manufactured without obtaining a license from Motorola. There is also the question of whether there would be sufficient openly-available documentation on the protocol to ensure its legality under Part 97.

APCO-25 is NOT proprietary of Motorola. It is a protocol standard developed for public safety by an APCO (Association of Public-Safety Communications Officials) working group.

You may be confusing the trunking protocol Motorola uses on their APCO-25 systems, which is proprietary. The digital over-the-air interface, which is what APCO-25 defines, is not proprietary.

The D-Star protocol includes everything from the digital GMSK over-the-air interface, to the Internet gateway-to-gateway linking.


Mark

[W9WHE]

K1RFD writes:

"As I understand it, one of the problems with APCO-25 for hams is that it is a proprietary Motorola technology, and thus an APCO-25 radio cannot be manufactured without obtaining a license from Motorola....."

NOPE. WRONG.
That is why you can buy a P25 radio from Icom, Yaesu/Vertex, M/A Comm, Motorola and others. APCO P25 is owned by APCO, not Motorola. Despite what the D-Star crowd would have you believe.

[W9WHE]

While D-Star repeaters are DIGITAL ONLY, Motorola APCO P25 repeaters can handle BOTH analog and digital, that way, your radios are NOT made obsolete!

[kc9rpm]

D STAR IS NOT DIGITAL ONLY, YOU CAN USE ANALOG ON THE D-STAR SYSTEM TOO.

[k1rfd]

Quote[/b] (N7MK @ Sep. 22 2007,11:11)]APCO-25 is NOT proprietary of Motorola. #It is a protocol standard developed for public safety by an APCO (Association of Public-Safety Communications Officials) working group. #

You may be confusing the trunking protocol Motorola uses on their APCO-25 systems, which is proprietary. #The digital over-the-air interface, which is #what APCO-25 defines, is not proprietary.
Thanks for the clarification, Mark.

I think I was being led astray by a news release on the APCO site regarding Motorola's patents for "modulation, channel protocol, and trunking...required in the Project 25 standards".

http://www.apcointl.org/frequency/project25/mot.html

[n5rfx]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Sep. 20 2007,14:10)]I sure wish Icom would explain why it is a good idea for hams to migrate to a digital standard that is INCOMPATABLE with the world-wide APCO 25 digital standard, ESPECIALLY since the entire public safety world is going to APCO 25.
I think Hams should use an Amateur radio protocol. P25 is a public safety protocol maintained by the Association of Public-Safety Communications Officials. DStar is a protocol maintained by the JARL. Which organization do you think has official Ham representation?

What models of APCO radios allow front panel user programming of frequency? We all know what a PIA Motorola is about their radio service software (RSS), it costs almost as much as a DStar radio. The other P25 manufacturers may not worry about piracy as much and could be more popular.

73,
Mark N5RFX

[KG4RUL]

I found an interesting claim in the iCOM special advertising section (pages 109-116) in the September 2007 edition of QST. On page 113 under Shelters, it states "... while offering HIPAA-compatible receive and transmit information". Under Shelter management it states "Personal information is not transmitted in the clear, satisfying HIPAA Standards". Unless the D-Star protcol has somehow managed to slip encryption into the mix, their digitized signal is definitely being transmitted "in the clear". Encoding is NOT encryption and, as the D-Start folks often point out, their encoding scheme is publicly available, to satisfy FCC and other governmental bodies requirements.

[n5rfx]

I have to agree that DStar is not encrypted. Looking at HIPPA Covered Entity Charts (http://www.cms.hhs.gov/HIPAAGenInfo/Downloads/CoveredEntitycharts.pdf) I am not sure why we are concerned about encryption, but I am certainly not an expert here.

There have been other claims in the DStar slick sheets that are questionable. One is the claim that channels can be spaced 6.25 kHz apart. This is true in some cases where there is good spacial separation of the systems. Tests I have run show that 10 KHz separation is more robust. This is still an advantage as 5 KHz deviation systems require 15 to 30 KHz frequency separation. In an analog system where you have two systems that are 15 kHz apart without degradation, DStar 6.25 kHz should work. Where you have a required analog 30 KHz separation, 10 KHz will be more appropriate for DStar.

73,
Mark N5RFX

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (KG4RUL @ Sep. 25 2007,09:27)]I found an interesting claim in the iCOM special advertising section (pages 109-116) in the September 2007 edition of QST. #On page 113 under Shelters, it states "... while offering HIPAA-compatible receive and transmit information". #Under Shelter management it states "Personal information is not transmitted in the clear, satisfying HIPAA Standards". #Unless the D-Star protcol has somehow managed to slip encryption into the mix, their digitized signal is definitely being transmitted "in the clear". #Encoding is NOT encryption and, as the D-Start folks often point out, their encoding scheme is publicly available, to satisfy FCC and other governmental bodies requirements.
I would interpret their use of "not transmitted in the clear" as being a reference to the need for one of their receivers, just as transmitting a PSK31 signal is not "in the clear," hence not subject to casual monitoring by anyone with a scanner or receiver.

I am of the belief that many of the more emotional posts to many threads on the issue of encryption, authentication and even on the requirements of HIPAA transmissions have so increased the alarum level that we often jump to erroneous conclusions and trip ourselves up in mixing and matching various definitions to suit our personal prejudices.

[KG4RUL]

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Sep. 25 2007,03:08)]Quote[/b] (KG4RUL @ Sep. 25 2007,09:27)]I found an interesting claim in the iCOM special advertising section (pages 109-116) in the September 2007 edition of QST. On page 113 under Shelters, it states "... while offering HIPAA-compatible receive and transmit information". Under Shelter management it states "Personal information is not transmitted in the clear, satisfying HIPAA Standards". Unless the D-Star protcol has somehow managed to slip encryption into the mix, their digitized signal is definitely being transmitted "in the clear". Encoding is NOT encryption and, as the D-Start folks often point out, their encoding scheme is publicly available, to satisfy FCC and other governmental bodies requirements.
I would interpret their use of "not transmitted in the clear" as being a reference to the need for one of their receivers, just as transmitting a PSK31 signal is not "in the clear," hence not subject to casual monitoring by anyone with a scanner or receiver.

I am of the belief that many of the more emotional posts to many threads on the issue of encryption, authentication and even on the requirements of HIPAA transmissions have so increased the alarum level that we often jump to erroneous conclusions and trip ourselves up in mixing and matching various definitions to suit our personal prejudices.
Agreed, and my objection is to iCOM's use of this furor as a specious selling point. Anything to make a buck!

[k7dn]

Quote[/b] (kc9rpm @ Sep. 24 2007,17:38)]D STAR IS NOT DIGITAL ONLY, YOU CAN USE ANALOG ON THE D-STAR SYSTEM TOO.
You are incorrect. The D-STAR radios are also analog radios, but the digital repeater, which are the "system" will not pass analog!

[k7dn]

Quote[/b] (k1rfd @ Sep. 21 2007,14:45)]Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Sep. 21 2007,16:10)]I sure with Icom would explain why it is a good idea for hams to migrate to a digital standard that is INCOMPATABLE with the world-wide APCO 25 digital standard, ESPECIALLY since the entire public safety world is going to APCO 25.
As I understand it, one of the problems with APCO-25 for hams is that it is a proprietary Motorola technology, and thus an APCO-25 radio cannot be manufactured without obtaining a license from Motorola. #There is also the question of whether there would be sufficient openly-available documentation on the protocol to ensure its legality under Part 97.
You are behind in the times if you quesion P25 being legal in amateur radio.

and

The D-STAR standard uses proprietary technology from DVSI, in the AMBI vocoder, and it requires paying a license fee to DVSI for their vocoder.

[W9WHE]

KC9RPM writes:

"D STAR IS NOT DIGITAL ONLY, YOU CAN USE ANALOG ON THE D-STAR SYSTEM TOO"

NOPE. WRONG.
While the D-star HTs and Mobles might be analog and D-star, THE REPEATER is D-STAR ONLY. The D-star repeater does not have a "mixed mode". So your D-Star repeater can ONLY pass D-Star modulated signals. So, if you put up a D-star repeater, your analog handheld is now rendered useless for repeater operations.







N5RFX writes:

"What models of APCO radios allow front panel user programming of frequency? #

Motorola XTS5000 and XTS2500.
Since I'm a Motorola fan, I don't know about Kenwood, Icom, Yaesu, Macom, and others.





N5RFX also writes:

"The other P25 manufacturers may not worry about piracy as much and could be more popular"

Mabey. So go buy an APCO P25 radio from Kenwood, Icom, Macom or others. But why make yourself NON-interoperable and NON-compatable with APCO P25, the worldwide standard?


W9WHE
Pushing back the frontiers of D-star falsities.

[W9WHE]

K7DN writes:


"......one of the problems with APCO-25 for hams is that it is a proprietary Motorola technology, and thus an APCO-25 radio cannot be manufactured without obtaining a license from Motorola"

NOPE, WRONG. FALSE.
APCO P25 belongs to APCO, not Motorola. That is why you can buy an APCO P25 radio from Icom, Kenwood, Motorola & Macomm.





K7DN also writes:

"There is also the question of whether there would be sufficient openly-available documentation on the protocol to ensure its legality under Part 97"

The only question is in your mind.
There are presently 8 APCO P25 ham systems operating in Illinois and only 1 D-star system.

[n5rfx]

Quote[/b] ]W9WHE: While the D-star HTs and Mobles might be analog and D-star, THE REPEATER is D-STAR ONLY. The D-star repeater does not have a "mixed mode". So your D-Star repeater can ONLY pass D-Star modulated signals. So, if you put up a D-star repeater, your analog handheld is now rendered useless for repeater operations.
Yes magically all analog handhelds are rendered useless when a DStar repeater goes up. Get real!
Quote[/b] ]N5RFX writes:

"What models of APCO radios allow front panel user programming of frequency"?

W9WHE:Motorola XTS5000 and XTS2500.
Certainly SP versions are made, but they are rare and very expensive.
Quote[/b] ]APCO P25, the worldwide standard
Public safety I agree, but not for Amateur Radio. How many hams have official APCO input?
Quote[/b] ]W9WHE:There are presently 8 APCO P25 ham systems operating in Illinois and only 1 D-star system.
Are they linked nationwide?

73,
Mark N5RFX

[W9WHE]

More inaccuracies.
XTS5000 and XTS2500 models with Front Pannel Programming are NOT "SP". It is a formal option. They are often seen for sale on Ebay. In fact, as of 9/27/07 there are at least two such radios on ebay right now.

I sure wish you D-star people would STOP spreading FALSE information about APCO 25.


Go ahead and buy a D-star. Be NON-compatable and NON-interoperable with the rest of the digital communications world. #But don't be surprised if your D-star system becomes the Sony Betamax of ham radio. There are allready THOUSANDS of APCO P25 systems operating around the world. WHY anyone would want to be NON-compatable and #NON-interoperable in an age of Compatabillity and Interoperablillity is beyond me.

Besides, how will emcomm save the world if they can't even talk with it?


W9WHE

[KG4RUL]

Yes D-Star repeaters can be linked via the Internet. However, there is NO provision for RF linking at all! All your eggs are in one basket - your ISP.

[wu8y]

Quote[/b] (KG4RUL @ Sep. 27 2007,20:43)]Yes D-Star repeaters can be linked via the Internet. #However, there is NO provision for RF linking at all! #All your eggs are in one basket - your ISP.
So, uh, what is this 10 GHz link thingey ID-RP2L they show?

http://www.icom.co.jp/product....ex.html (http://www.icom.co.jp/products/amateur/products/digital/d-star_system/index.html)

[n1jbs]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Sep. 27 2007,11:39)]More inaccuracies.
XTS5000 and XTS2500 models with Front Pannel Programming are NOT "SP". It is a formal option. They are often seen for sale on Ebay. In fact, as of 9/27/07 there are at least two such radios on ebay right now.

I sure wish you D-star people would STOP spreading FALSE information about APCO 25.


Go ahead and buy a D-star. Be NON-compatable and NON-interoperable with the rest of the digital communications world. #But don't be surprised if your D-star system becomes the Sony Betamax of ham radio. There are allready THOUSANDS of APCO P25 systems operating around the world. WHY anyone would want to be NON-compatable and #NON-interoperable in an age of Compatabillity and Interoperablillity is beyond me.

Besides, how will emcomm save the world if they can't even talk with it?


W9WHE
Hmmm... lets see:

1. D-STAR is a standard developed by HAMS.

2. APCO-25 is a 20 year old standard developed by communications officials. Phase 2 is just coming into the picture at 6.25 khz spacing.

3. Voice and data can be transmitted at the same time.
APCO-25 doesn't do that yet.

4. As more vendors produce D-STAR equipment, the price will come down. (unlike Motorola and others)

5. As for the Betamax thing, it has a SUPERIOR PICTURE.
Thats why Blue-ray is around now. Things change.

I dont see Motorola selling or marketing to Hams at all.
Do you?

Both modes have their use. For the moment I am choosing D-STAR for a repeater upgrade.

[n5rfx]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Sep. 26 2007,09:39)]More inaccuracies.
XTS5000 and XTS2500 models with Front Pannel Programming are NOT "SP". It is a formal option. They are often seen for sale on Ebay. In fact, as of 9/27/07 there are at least two such radios on ebay right now.

I sure wish you D-star people would STOP spreading FALSE information about APCO 25.
What is what option for Front panel Frequency Programming?

Federal Signal makes good lights too, and they are great for public safety, but have no use otherwise. APCO 25 is obviously a good protocol, but its use is limited to public safety. Do you really think hams are going to be using P25 on public safety frequencies? Do we want public safety using Amateur radio frequencies? If so I can see your enthusiasm for P25.

73,
Mark N5RFX

[n5rfx]

Quote[/b] (KG4RUL @ Sep. 26 2007,18:43)]Yes D-Star repeaters can be linked via the Internet. However, there is NO provision for RF linking at all! All your eggs are in one basket - your ISP.
There are ways to connect gateways with RF using TCP/IP. The 10GHz links for DStar have limited functionality in my opinion. All they do is connect repeaters in a local area. For nationwide and worldwide interconnect, the Internet is the best choice. There have been contingencies discussed for replacing the wired network. In Alabama the DStar folks have been working with satellite IP connectivity, but it has not been perfected.

There is work to do, but the fundamental network topology is present.

73,
Mark N5RFX

[W9WHE]

N5RFX writes:

"APCO 25....... use is limited to public safety"


STOP REPEATING FALSE INFORMATION. ##
APCO P25 is ALREADY in operation on HAM frequencies all over the USA. I had a P25 QSO on 444.525 last night. There are 8 APCO P25 HAM systems in Illinois and only 1 D-star system. #APCO P25 is EIGHT TIMES more prevelent among hams in Illinois. APCO P25 is NOT limited to public safety. On the other hand, D-star IS limited to ham radio.

EVERYBODY understands that in an emergency, the core concept and goal these days is "interoperabillity". Just who will you be "interoperable" with using a D-star repeater? NOBODY, not even Analog hams! #D-star is a SINGLE MODE repeater that ONLY handles D-star modulation. On the other hand, P25 repeaters can do "mixed mode" and can handle BOTH analog and digital signals with NO user intervention. Try that with your D-star "Betamax".


W9WHE
Pushing back the frontiers of D-star propiganda.

[n5rfx]

Quote[/b] ]W9WHE:STOP REPEATING FALSE INFORMATION.
APCO P25 is ALREADY in operation on HAM frequencies all over the USA.
No one is arguing whether P25 is used on HAM frequencies. The argument is over its usefulness.
Quote[/b] ]W9WHE:On the other hand, D-star IS limited to ham radio.
Exactly and that is a good thing. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Quote[/b] ]W9WHE:EVERYBODY understands that in an emergency, the core concept and goal these days is "interoperabillity". Just who will you be "interoperable" with using a D-star repeater? NOBODY, not even Analog hams!
Good point...Analog FM is more useful today than P25 or DStar. What will APCO do to enhance and optimize P25 for the Amateur Radio bands? Do you really think hams are going to be using P25 on public safety frequencies? As I said before, do we want public safety using Amateur radio frequencies? If so I can see your enthusiasm for P25.
Quote[/b] ]. On the other hand, P25 repeaters can do "mixed mode" and can handle BOTH analog and digital signals with NO user intervention.
Aparently P25 cannot stand alone and must revert to analog from time to time.
73,
Mark N5RFX

[n6six]

It was posted earlier that in Illinois, there were eight P25 repeaters (amateur) to one D-Star. I found that interesting and had no reason to doubt it. But, I thought it would be enlightening to bring to light the level of D-Star activity in amateur radio around the globe, so I figured why not compare lists... here's the D-Star list to date.

I'd like to see a list of P25 AMATEUR REPEATERS. I am really interested in seeing if the difference in the level of activity supports that 8:1 claim made earlier in the thread... it certainly didn't support it in Illinois.

I believe this list also represents the "opening of purse strings" by amateur radio operators.

Illinois Digital Amateur Repeater Systems List:

W9GN 145.110 Chicago APCO P-25
W9DWP 145.270 Dundee APCO P-25
K9SO 145.370 Schaumburg APCO P-25
WA9VGI 442.900 Schaumburg APCO P-25
N9OZB 443.150 Northbrook APCO P-25
KC9DFK 443.675 Chicago APCO P-25
N9KNS 443.725 Schaumburg APCO P-25

W9CEQ 442.10625 Batavia D-STAR
NS9RC 442.09375 Chicago D-STAR
NS9RC 1292.2000 Chicago D-STAR


The D-Star Repeater Directory (http://www.dstarusers.org/repeaters.php) lists 132 repeaters world-wide (those are the ones who have reported their existence to the site). Many of those repeaters offer 2m. 70cm, 33cm (DV & DD), and a good majority are also on the gateway.

Looking forward to that list.

73!
Joe, N6SIX

[W9WHE]

The 8:1 ratio was based upon Illinois repeaters listed in arrl's Travel Plus Software, the only data I had available.

That package actually lists 7 # P25 machines in Illinois, but there is a brand new Quantar "mixed mode" system on 444.525 Mhz (this month) in Champaign, so that makes AT LEAST 8 P25 systems. Arrl's travel plus software only listed 1 D-star system. Unfortunately, there is no "hard" data, only data from different people.

While there may be "unreported" or "unpublished" #D-star systems, there may be "unreported" or "unpublished" P25 systems as well. BUT regardless of the data you use, it seems clear that there are far MORE P25 machines then D-star machines in Illinois. If you have better data, please share it, as I too would like to see it.




W9WHE

[n6six]

Well, that's a bummer. I was hoping to see something a little more substantial for P25 use in amateur radio.

I just think that basing it on "one" instance (the state of Illinois, for example) is a bad way to paint a picture across the board. While the dstarusers.org page may not be conclusive, it appears to me that it has taken the steps to make hard data available to all. Maybe, one day, P25 users will get organized to the point that they make a list of systems across the country available. I know I'd be more apt to consider that mode if I knew what the P25 landscape looked like, and maybe other operators would feel the same.

I think it is great that both are being explored more and more by amateur radio ops.

That type of experimentation is good for the hobby.

Thanks for sharing your insight... I certainly appreciated it!

- Joe, N6SIX

[KS4VT]

Quote[/b] (n6six @ Sep. 28 2007,12:23)]I'd like to see a list of P25 AMATEUR REPEATERS. #I am really interested in seeing if the difference in the level of activity supports that 8:1 claim made earlier in the thread... it certainly didn't support it in Illinois.
I did my best to capture as many P25 repeaters in the US and Canada over the last few months on this map. #Don't go by the dots as some of them list multiple repeaters and feel free to update it as need be.

http://www.frappr.com/?a=showmap2&mapid=2884865

In addition this post on Radio Reference has a ton of P25 amateur repeaters listed as well:

http://www.radioreference.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4096

and in closing this is what we have deployed in South Florida on the east coast (Miami, Broward, and Palm Beach County's):

Palm Beach County
146.88 - PL 110.9 NAC 293 @280' in the Riviera Beach/Palm Beach Gardens area
147.36 + PL 110.9 NAC 293 @ 370' in the center of Palm Beach County
145.39 - PL 110.9 NAC 293 @140' in the immediate vicinity of the Palm Beach Intl. Airport
147.39 + PL 110.9 NAC 293 @340' in western Boca Raton
442.00 + PL 110.9 NAC 293 @200' in western Boca Raton
All of the PBC locations are public safety radio sites with full back-up power.

Broward County
146.79 - PL 110.9 NAC 293 @ Motorola Plant in western Fort Lauderdale
443.00 + PL 131.8 NAC 293 in downtown Fort Lauderdale

Miami Dade County
146.925 - PL 94.8 NAC 293 in downtown Miami at 800' on the Miami/Dade Gov't building.

In northern Florida there are a number as well and are depicted on the map.

73

[k7dn]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Sep. 26 2007,13:05)]K7DN writes:


"......one of the problems with APCO-25 for hams is that it is a proprietary Motorola technology, and thus an APCO-25 radio cannot be manufactured without obtaining a license from Motorola"

NOPE, WRONG. FALSE.
APCO P25 belongs to APCO, not Motorola. That is why you can buy an APCO P25 radio from Icom, Kenwood, Motorola & Macomm.





K7DN also writes:

"There is also the question of whether there would be sufficient openly-available documentation on the protocol to ensure its legality under Part 97"

The only question is in your mind.
There are presently 8 APCO P25 ham systems operating in Illinois and only 1 D-star system.
YOU HAD BETTER GO BACK AND LOOK AT WHO YOU ARE ACTUALLY QUOTING!!!!! I RESPONDED TO THE QUOTES, I DIDN"T MAKE THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[W9WHE]

There is a NEW APCO P25 digital system operating in Champaign, Illinois.
Motorola Quantar. 444.525 with a NAC 293 (for those with a need to know) and for the rest, you are also welcome to access it using the "ancient mode" i.e. analog, using a PL of 162.2. ALL APCO P25 users have "DUAL MODE" recieve, so we will hear you ancient moders transmitting in analog. UNlike D-star, the APCO P25 maching is dual mode, so we will hear you in analog and respond! Were you to try that with a D-Star repeater, NOBODY would hear you!

W9WHE

[n5rfx]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Sep. 30 2007,09:31)]ALL APCO P25 users have "DUAL MODE" recieve, so we will hear you ancient moders transmitting in analog. UNlike D-star, the APCO P25 maching is dual mode, so we will hear you in analog and respond! Were you to try that with a D-Star repeater, NOBODY would hear you!

W9WHE
Is this what it boils down to? Is this the prominent feature of P25?

How many P25 features from this list are valuable to Amateur radio (http://www.project25.org/Forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=22&d=1182540138) and are unique to P25?

I think the real enthusiasm for P25 is the fact that the subscriber units can be used on Amateur radio frequencies and Public safety frequencies. Also P25 really sets off that Federal light bar http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

73,
Mark N5RFX

[W9WHE]

WITH A D-STAR REPEATER, YOUR ANALOG HT AND MOBLE RADIOS ARE USELESS PAPERWEIGHTS. D-STAR CANNOT ACCOMIDATE ANALOG SIGNALS.

But hey, go buy a single mode D-star repeater. Just don't be surprised when your D-star repeater becomes the Sony Betamax of ham radio!


WHY any ham would adopt a digital mode that us NON-compatable and NON-interoperable with the rest of the digital communications world is beyond me. There is a world-wide digital standard (adopted by Icom, Vertex/Standard, Kenwood, EF Johnson, M/A Comm, Racal and Motorola) and yet some hams want to go off and re-invent the wheel. Go figure.


Besides, how will emcomm save the world, if it can't even communicate with it?

[KS4VT]

Quote[/b] (n5rfx @ Sep. 28 2007,09:15)]What is what option for Front panel Frequency Programming?

Federal Signal makes good lights too, and they are great for public safety, but have no use otherwise. #APCO 25 is obviously a good protocol, but its use is limited to public safety. #Do you really think hams are going to be using P25 on public safety frequencies? #Do we want public safety using Amateur radio frequencies? #If so I can see your enthusiasm for P25.

73,
Mark N5RFX
Q53 FPP "Front Panel Programming" is the option and it is not limited only to Public Safety.

[N4DOG]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Oct. 04 2007,11:41)]WHY any ham would adopt a digital mode that us NON-compatable and NON-interoperable with the rest of the digital communications world is beyond me. There is a world-wide digital standard (adopted by Icom, Vertex/Standard, Kenwood, EF Johnson, M/A Comm, Racal and Motorola) and yet some hams want to go off and re-invent the wheel. Go figure.


Besides, how will emcomm save the world, if it can't even communicate with it?
I am glad you LOVE your P25. I use it in my LEO field and it is alright. It is nothing to be jumping up and down about. I for one can not afford a Motorola XTS 2500, 3000, or 5000. Nor could I afford to buy the programing software for the radios either.
The D-Star system is just another TOOL for us Ham radio operators. I do not believe it is going away anytime soon. I just attended a D-Star siminar in Tallahassee a week ago. We had about 100 people from all over Florida, Georgia and Alabama. There are several D-Star systems coming online in this area. Of course it has it good points and bad points. But overall I have enjoyed playing on D-Star. It is nice to be able to see who keyed the radio. It has a chatting software that can be ran at the same time as voice. It will have a lot of good features during a disaster. The only problem we have in Tallahassee is finding a permenant home for our system so we can hook it up to the gateway. For the APRS buffs out there the ICOM 2820 will becon your position every so often. We are having a lot of fun with it.

[n5rfx]

Quote[/b] (KS4VT @ Oct. 03 2007,17:11)]Q53 FPP "Front Panel Programming" is the option and it is not limited only to Public Safety.
Thanks. What would a radio equipped with that option cost? Is the dongle included in that cost?

73,
Mark N5RFX

[n5rfx]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Oct. 03 2007,09:41)]WHY any ham would adopt a digital mode that us NON-compatable and NON-interoperable with the rest of the digital communications world is beyond me. There is a world-wide digital standard (adopted by Icom, Vertex/Standard, Kenwood, EF Johnson, M/A Comm, Racal and Motorola) and yet some hams want to go off and re-invent the wheel. Go figure.
Simple. DStar was designed by Hams for Hams, and P25 was designed for Public Safety. What features does P25 offer to the Ham community? The only argument that I see for using P25 is when Hams will need to use Public Safety infrastructure. When will Hams be using Public Safety infrastructure for communication?

Does this need for Ham interoperability with Public Safety extend to trunking systems?

73,
Mark N5RFX

[W7NWH]

To watch D-STAR grow check out www.dstarusers.org

To see who's using, location, gateway options, I/O? Really a cool site W5MAY created, it's even linked to google mapping. Gerry must of put some time into this one.

Wow, look at that long list of users all around the world!

And that list of repeaters, I see a whole bunch of em. And I see more every week now.... hmmmm When I click on one I get a last heard list.. nice...

I also see free apps like NJ6N's D-CHAT for D-STAR.

So where's all the free apps for APCO??

Wait a dog gone minute... is that a ham developing free and useful software for D-STAR? For free??? Is that even allowed in America?

Funny, I see nothing like this for APCO anything?

D-STAR is now being purchased by sheriff's offices and staffed by hams. Cost is a prime motivation. They can get an entire D-STAR system for a fraction of the cost of APCO. It does what they need to do - zap emails and texts in emergencies - using simplex!

D-STAR gets the job done for a fraction of the cost. And no matter what others might try to "sell" us on here - We still live in America where cost is king! And like death and taxes you will never change that fact.

Someone needs to build an APCO to D-STAR translater so tiny pockets of APCO users can tap the growing D-STAR juggernaut!

[KG4RUL]

Quote[/b] (W7NWH @ Oct. 12 2007,19:33)]Someone needs to build an APCO to D-STAR translater so tiny pockets of APCO users can tap the growing D-STAR juggernaut!
OR perhaps:

Someone needs to build an D-STAR to APCO translator so D-STAR users can tap the potential of APCO and not suck up all the frequencies available to analog repeaters?

[ko4l]

Guys,

Why are you debating the D-Star vs. APCO25 differences? #They both have their own strengths.

Most Public Safety System Administrators will very seldom EVER let your ham radio of any flavor on his system. #If you do transmit on his freq. he may want to talk to you face to face (did you mod your radio - which is illegal on PS freqs)

So lets do it this way. #If a P25 VHF/UHF system is in trunked mode, you'll have to have syskeys and a system ID (only available legally from the SysAdmin of said system) #If your think your personally owned P25 radio will be allowed on that system, you are probably in error. (I'm sure somewhere some ham group has a relationship with the local PS agency, but I'm not 100% sure it has been done on a large scale.) but it won't be just crank in the freq and talk to them.

IF the VHF/UHF system is (non-trunked) then, you stand a better chance of getting permission to talk on his system, but once again I would not bet money on it. #Now if you are wanting to listen-only, a scanner of the appropiate reception type would be best.

So, if the PS agency has a legitimate need to talk to you direct, he can 1) get a ham license and call you on the ham freqs. 2) if his system is trunked - interconnect your freq into a specific talkgroup on his system. 3) non-trunked? He can interconnect the ham freq. into his system. #This differences of radio/modulation/agencies is something every PS agency deals with every day and believe me - its forefront on their minds. (interoperability is the buzzword these days)

So the question is.... What do we hams need to provide a service to the public, not just public safety, but the public as a whole. #Well now there are as many flavors/ways to meet that need as we've got opinions here on this board. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

So will D-star work --- sure it will, will a Commercial radio that is P25 work. #Sure it will. #What is the best solution for one group may not be the right solution to some other group.

I personally am impressed with both, they both have their plus' and minus' and impressive attributes. #P25 is a digital standard for "modulation", but D-star is a digital/analog system. Both have a "agency" that is the "owner" but both are available for use in the ham bands.

Which is correct for hams, wow - that is a question we've been grapsing with since the beginning of hamdom.

That is my take on that. #YMMV

Lloyd M. Mitchell KO4L
SC Forestry Comm. Coord.
FCCA VP

[n5rfx]

Quote[/b] (ko4l @ Oct. 12 2007,20:05)]So will D-star work --- sure it will, will a Commercial radio that is P25 work. Sure it will. What is the best solution for one group may not be the right solution to some other group.

I personally am impressed with both, they both have their plus' and minus' and impressive attributes. P25 is a digital standard for "modulation", but D-star is a digital/analog system. Both have a "agency" that is the "owner" but both are available for use in the ham bands.

Which is correct for hams, wow - that is a question we've been grapsing with since the beginning of hamdom.

That is my take on that. YMMV

Lloyd M. Mitchell KO4L
SC Forestry Comm. Coord.
FCCA VP
Agreed.

The argument is over which protocol is best suited for Amateur radio. The argument is not a technical one, the argument is over which organization is most reponsive to Hams.

APCO has no official Amateur radio representation. The only evidence of any APCO interest in Amateur radio is found here (http://www.apcointl.org/frequency/HAM/ham1.htm). When I wrote to the task force via apco911.org, the reply I received was that the promised white paper had not been written and the task force no longer existed.

The JARL is the keeper of the DStar protocol. This is a Ham organization. I have met JARL members at TAPR DCC's in the past and have always been impressed with their technical prowess.

73,
Mark N5RFX

[ka9flx]

Quote[/b] (kc9rpm @ Sep. 24 2007,17:38)]D STAR IS NOT DIGITAL ONLY, YOU CAN USE ANALOG ON THE D-STAR SYSTEM TOO.
Ah…Umm... No You Can't.

A D-Star system (dare I use the word "repeater") is DIGITAL ONLY!

Yes, the subscriber radios can operate analog or digital (mode/channel selection required), but not through a stand-alone D-Star system, which again is Digital Only!

P-25 repeaters will support digital AND analog operation on the same repeater. This should not be construed to imply simultaneous though. One guy talks digital then the other analog (or any combination. I just want to be clear and not start some other stupid debate).

Having said that, it is possible for a P-25 subscriber to listen in both analog and digital on the same mode (channel), regardless of the transmitter settings. So one guy can transmit digital and the other analog. As long as each subscribers mode/receiver is configured for “mixed mode receive”, they can still communicate with each other directly or through a P-25 repeater, even though one is transmitting digital and the other analog!

The above scenarios depict an operational (inter-operability) capability that D-Star cannot do.

To provide that level of interoperability using D-Star as the digital protocol, would require 2 separate repeater systems, one analog the other D-Star and the subscriber radios would at a minimum, be required to change modes/channels (switch between analog and digital) with each exchange.

To be clear, I am not knocking D-Star at all, it is a great technology for amateur radio.

However, D-Star's features and capabilities, as is the case with the prior poster, are constantly exaggerated if not outright lied about by those who feel D-Star is the technology to end all technologies, which of course it is not.

Likewise, while I have done so myself here to clarify a misstatement, why some D-Star supporter feel the need to constantly draw comparisons to P-25, or downplay that technology's features and capabilities is a mystery to me.

Do you guys (D-Star advocates) feel that threatened by a now almost 20 year old digital technology? #Wow, APCO (APCO, not Motorola) must have really done something right all those years ago if he new kid on the block feels so threatened.

If D-Star is losing any respect and/or credibility within the amateur ranks, it is because of a few misguided D-Star advocates, such as the previous poster, who are constantly spreading misinformation about D-Star and any perceived competition such as P-25.

Having to lie or exaggerate about a technology is not doing anybody favors, especially those that are just seeking information and/or perhaps trying to make an informed decision. #At a minimum, making false or uninformed statements reduces your personal credibility to zero.

Stick with the truth and let the chips fall where they fall. # Any mode/technology must ultimately stand on its own merits, which will come out in the end regardless.

73,
Bob - KA9FLX