Osama bin Liberal

[kc0ukk]

Quote[/b] ]"You permitted Bush to complete his first term, and stranger still, chose him for a second term, which gave him a clear mandate from you -- with your full knowledge and consent -- to continue to murder our people in Iraq and Afghanistan. Then you claim to be innocent! The innocence of yours is like my innocence of the blood of your sons on the 11th -- were I to claim such a thing."

ABC News (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/09/new-obl-tape-ir.html)

Seems he thinks little of democracy;

Quote[/b] ]It has now become clear to you and the entire world the impotence of the democratic system and how it plays with the interests of the peoples and their blood by sacrificing soldiers and populations to achieve the interests of the major corporations

He's pretty disappointed in the Democrats too;

Quote[/b] ] Thus, you elected the Democratic Party for this purpose, but the Democrats haven't made a move worth mentioning.

Except for Noam Chomsky,

Quote[/b] ]..among one of the most capable of those from your own side...

Does anybody know Osama's callsign? I swear I've read some of his posts here on QRZ.

[n2nh]

What a jerk. And like Michael Myers, he shows up on schedule. When is Deciderman getting him?

Oh and nice troll you have here.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[KI4PJW]

Hello All,

This sounds like a United Nations sales pitch to me.

Now that the US is disillusioned with the status quo of "DEMOCRACY" , (which is not the form of our governmental charter), that has been now been ingrained in the American mind. There will be a huge push to get Americans to further embrace the GLOBAL GOVERNMENT CONCEPT and abandon our treasured freedom.
You know,
"Edwards calling for World Anti-Terrorism Force."

IMIrateO, OBL is a United Nations shill, just like the BUSH's, CLINTON's, McCAIN, KENNEDY, GUILIANI, and many more. Just one more aspect of the total deception of the entire world.

Come sheep! Hey DICK, got those shears sharpened?

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (kc0ukk @ Sep. 07 2007,18:54)]Quote[/b] ]"You permitted Bush to complete his first term, and stranger still, chose him for a second term, which gave him a clear mandate from you -- with your full knowledge and consent -- to continue to murder our people in Iraq and Afghanistan. #Then you claim to be innocent! #The innocence of yours is like my innocence of the blood of your sons on the 11th -- were I to claim such a thing."

ABC News (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/09/new-obl-tape-ir.html)

Seems he thinks little of democracy;

Quote[/b] ]It has now become clear to you and the entire world the impotence of the democratic system and how it plays with the interests of the peoples and their blood by sacrificing soldiers and populations to achieve the interests of the major corporations

He's pretty disappointed in the Democrats too;

Quote[/b] ] Thus, you elected the Democratic Party for this purpose, but the Democrats haven't made a move worth mentioning.

Except for Noam Chomsky,

Quote[/b] ]..among one of the most capable of those from your own side...

Does anybody know Osama's callsign? #I swear I've read some of his posts here on QRZ.
One would wonder if Osama works for the present administration ?

[ad4mg]

It's just another peek into the bizarro world of the typical uber right wing, war mongering, neoKon.

Pay it no mind ... it, like a bad gas pain, will pass in time.

There just aren't enough "negligible casualties" to keep them happy at the moment.

[W4DFW]

I believe we have greatly narrowed our search for OBL. He has to have access to a fax machine, otherwise he wouldn't know all the Democrat talking points. At this moment, I suspect Howard Dean is planning on inviting OBL to be keynote speaker at the DNC.

[ad4mg]

Quote[/b] (W4DFW @ Sep. 07 2007,22:52)]I believe we have greatly narrowed our search for OBL. He has to have access to a fax machine, otherwise he wouldn't know all the Democrat talking points. At this moment, I suspect Howard Dean is planning on inviting OBL to be keynote speaker at the DNC.

Did your Mom ever look at you, and for no apparent reason, begin to cry hysterically?

[kc0ukk]

Quote[/b] (ad4mg @ Sep. 07 2007,19:47)]It's just another peek into the bizarro world of the typical uber right wing, war mongering, neoKon.

Pay it no mind ... it, like a bad gas pain, will pass in time.

There just aren't enough "negligible casualties" to keep them happy at the moment.
oooh! a guilty conscience perhaps? No sweat, non-GI, even I know the difference between an Islamist and a most Democrats.

I'll bet there will be few folks watching their tongues for a day or two.

[KI4PJW]

Quote[/b] (ad4mg @ Sep. 07 2007,02:05)]Quote[/b] (W4DFW @ Sep. 07 2007,22:52)]I believe we have greatly narrowed our search for OBL. #He has to have access to a fax machine, otherwise he wouldn't know all the Democrat talking points. At this moment, I suspect Howard Dean is planning on inviting OBL to be keynote speaker at the DNC.

Did your Mom ever look at you, and for no apparent reason, begin to cry hysterically?
Seriously,

The Zed is the little ray of sunlight in this dark world.

That cracks me up!

[W4DFW]

Quote[/b] (ad4mg @ Sep. 06 2007,23:05)]Quote[/b] (W4DFW @ Sep. 07 2007,22:52)]I believe we have greatly narrowed our search for OBL. He has to have access to a fax machine, otherwise he wouldn't know all the Democrat talking points. At this moment, I suspect Howard Dean is planning on inviting OBL to be keynote speaker at the DNC.

Did your Mom ever look at you, and for no apparent reason, begin to cry hysterically?
You mean you didn't learn from your parent's mistake?

Please use birth control. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ad4mg]

Quote[/b] (W4DFW @ Sep. 07 2007,23:22)]Quote[/b] (ad4mg @ Sep. 06 2007,23:05)]Quote[/b] (W4DFW @ Sep. 07 2007,22:52)]I believe we have greatly narrowed our search for OBL. He has to have access to a fax machine, otherwise he wouldn't know all the Democrat talking points. At this moment, I suspect Howard Dean is planning on inviting OBL to be keynote speaker at the DNC.

Did your Mom ever look at you, and for no apparent reason, begin to cry hysterically?
You mean you didn't learn from your parent's mistake?

Please use birth control. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Thank you. My day is now complete. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

73 dude.

[kc0ukk]

Quote[/b] (ad4mg @ Sep. 07 2007,20:29)]Quote[/b] (W4DFW @ Sep. 07 2007,23:22)]Quote[/b] (ad4mg @ Sep. 06 2007,23:05)]Quote[/b] (W4DFW @ Sep. 07 2007,22:52)]I believe we have greatly narrowed our search for OBL. #He has to have access to a fax machine, otherwise he wouldn't know all the Democrat talking points. At this moment, I suspect Howard Dean is planning on inviting OBL to be keynote speaker at the DNC.

Did your Mom ever look at you, and for no apparent reason, begin to cry hysterically?
You mean you didn't learn from your parent's mistake?

Please use birth control. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Thank you. #My day is now complete. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

73 dude.
You do realize that your avatar has the text cut off at a rather arbitrary point? What is the word? Island, Islander, Islam, Islare, other? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[ad4mg]

'UKK: check your messenger for a PM. I moved my post to a PM, as it was too much of a hijack of the thread.

Thanks for the heads-up on the avatar. I'm not at all talented with graphics, especially animated gifs.

73

[K3XR]

As the frog would say, "It's not easy being greenxx xxxxxLIB."

http://www.dailygut.com/index.php?i=3245

[wz9o]

Just seen on CNN…OBL is scheduled to be a guest speaker at the DNC convention! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[ad4mg]

Quote[/b] (aa9ya @ Sep. 08 2007,15:00)]Just seen on CNN…OBL is scheduled to be a guest speaker at the DNC convention! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Fascinating. You think of that all by yourself?

[k9kxq]

Quote[/b] (ad4mg @ Sep. 08 2007,14:17)]Quote[/b] (aa9ya @ Sep. 08 2007,15:00)]Just seen on CNN…OBL is scheduled to be a guest speaker at the DNC convention! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Fascinating. #You think of that all by yourself?
Sharp as a tack ain't he, the topic title should read "Osama bin conning the cons."

BTW, where is Osama? and it was fore told in history, Franklin,Jefferson and a few others said you don't deserve freedom or liberty if you give up rights to be safe, ask yourself are you safer now, this President would let you die to move his agenda forward...

The cons might as well figure and settle in for a Democrat as President in 2008, so it is said so it will be written...

kxq

[K6UEY]

If you recall I predicted that OBL will introduce the Democratic candidate at the DNC.
That was several days ago,some people are rather slow at grasping ideas!!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[k9kxq]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Sep. 08 2007,15:27)]If you recall I predicted that OBL will introduce the Democratic candidate at the DNC.
That was several days ago,some people are rather slow at grasping ideas!!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
Stupid is as stupid does- Forest Gump...

kxq

[ad4mg]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Sep. 08 2007,16:27)]If you recall I predicted that OBL will introduce the Democratic candidate at the DNC.
That was several days ago,some people are rather slow at grasping ideas!!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
We're in awe of your psychic abilities.

Will Mr. Bush bring the camel humper to justice as promised, or will he leave the white house a failure in this aspect?

He did, after all, make a promise to the American people to accomplish this.

He didn't lie (shudder!), did he?

[kb2vxa]

"Now that the US is disillusioned with the status quo of "DEMOCRACY" , (which is not the form of our governmental charter), that has been now been ingrained in the American mind."

Somebody's catching on. "I pledge allegiance to...the REPUBLIC for which it stands..." Now doesn't that tell you we have a Republican government and that a Democracy has never existed? (Plato's Republic) Perhaps you've become disillusioned because Democracy is an illusion you have become separated from, think about it.

[n2nh]

Funny how this joker always shows up just in time to help the neocons. Point the finger all you want, but your boy isn't hunting him down for his own reasons.

I think he's way over due for Bush to say, Good Job Osama and hand him the medal.

[N3ATS]

Funny how some want to declare Bin Laden a bastion of the Democratic party, when the Republican Administration is the one who allowed him to remain free.

Don't go blaming the left, fellas. You had almost SIX years to bring this guy in and you have FAILED.

That's FAILED.

Once again, FAILED.

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (kb2vxa @ Sep. 08 2007,14:10)]"Now that the US is disillusioned with the status quo of "DEMOCRACY" , (which is not the form of our governmental charter), that has been now been ingrained in the American mind."

Somebody's catching on. "I pledge allegiance to...the REPUBLIC for which it stands..." Now doesn't that tell you we have a Republican government and that a Democracy has never existed? (Plato's Republic) Perhaps you've become disillusioned because Democracy is an illusion you have become separated from, think about it.
A "republic" doesn't mean a dictatorship. Is doesn't mean the president ignores the people and does as he pleases. The power of the republic is supposed to reside with the people and is carried to the plate via a representative.

[kc0ukk]

Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Sep. 08 2007,19:12)]Funny how some want to declare Bin Laden a bastion of the Democratic party, when the Republican Administration is the one who allowed him to remain free.

Don't go blaming the left, fellas. #You had almost SIX years to bring this guy in and you have FAILED.

That's FAILED.

Once again, FAILED.
I'll bet it irks OSL to no end that Bush can fly into al Anbar province while he files nowhere.

[kc0ukk]

Quote[/b] (n2nh @ Sep. 08 2007,19:01)]Funny how this joker always shows up just in time to help the neocons. #Point the finger all you want, but your boy isn't hunting him down for his own reasons.

I think he's way over due for Bush to say, Good Job Osama and hand him the medal.
It's not as nefarious as all that. Bin Laden simply isn't important enough. The military has other ends much more important than bin Laden. Defeating bin Laden won't stop the intifada; won't make converts of his followers; won't stop the cash flow to the Islamists; in short, pursuing bin Laden would only be a symbolic effort.

[w5klb]

Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Sep. 08 2007,19:12)]Funny how some want to declare Bin Laden a bastion of the Democratic party, when the Republican Administration is the one who allowed him to remain free.

Don't go blaming the left, fellas. #You had almost SIX years to bring this guy in and you have FAILED.

That's FAILED.

Once again, FAILED.
Riiiight. And what have the Democrats done? One word: NOTHING.

So, to win a Presidential Election, someone from the Democratic Party's Central Committee has to have a plan to catch the Bearded Wonder. Does Howard Dean(bat) have one? How about Obama? Does the Karpet-Double-Bagger Klintun have a plan? How about Democratic Politburo in Congress?

Until the Democrats come up with a viable plan, they should not be casting stones from their glass house.

Happy Hunting.

[n2nh]

Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Sep. 08 2007,23:15)]Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Sep. 08 2007,19:12)]Funny how some want to declare Bin Laden a bastion of the Democratic party, when the Republican Administration is the one who allowed him to remain free.

Don't go blaming the left, fellas. You had almost SIX years to bring this guy in and you have FAILED.

That's FAILED.

Once again, FAILED.
Riiiight. And what have the Democrats done? One word: NOTHING.

So, to win a Presidential Election, someone from the Democratic Party's Central Committee has to have a plan to catch the Bearded Wonder. Does Howard Dean(bat) have one? How about Obama? Does the Karpet-Double-Bagger Klintun have a plan? How about Democratic Politburo in Congress?

Until the Democrats come up with a viable plan, they should not be casting stones from their glass house.

Happy Hunting.
Can't have it both ways dude. You tell us that Congress doesn't wage wars, that this power belongs solely to the Commander-in-Chief, then you want to blame the Democratic Congress for not capturing binLaden. The blame for this failed policy to capture binLaden and the failed policy in Iraq are totally Bush's.

BUSH FAILED.

Oh, and to the preceding spinmeister, if binLaden is so unimportant, then why this flame thread trying to link him to Democrats?

You guys are really sounding like total idiots here.

[W4DFW]

Quote[/b] (n2nh @ Sep. 08 2007,00:28)]BUSH FAILED.

Oh, and to the preceding spinmeister, if binLaden is so unimportant, then why this flame thread trying to link him to Democrats?

You guys are really sounding like total idiots here.
I guess if we had gotten Osama, we would not get to see his lovely videos spewing forth the Democrat party's talking points. Boy, that must really piss off Democrats knowing the World is seeing in living color just how close they and Osama are linked at the waist.

Pretty smart of Bush, don't you think?? And you guys keep trying to tell us how DUMB Bush is!! HA HA HA!!!

Personally?? I wouldn't waste my time on Osama now. To march into Pakistan and get him would create a mess for Pakistan and at the moment, I really don't want Islamofascists getting a'hold of Pakistan's nukes. Yup, just let him live in those caves lookin' over his shoulder.

What has he done to America since 9/11, by the way?? Eh?? Oh, are we no longer his target??

Just WHOM are the idiots here?? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[n2nh]

Quote[/b] (W4DFW @ Sep. 09 2007,00:45)]Quote[/b] (n2nh @ Sep. 08 2007,00:28)]BUSH FAILED.

Oh, and to the preceding spinmeister, if binLaden is so unimportant, then why this flame thread trying to link him to Democrats?

You guys are really sounding like total idiots here.
I guess if we had gotten Osama, we would not get to see his lovely videos spewing forth the Democrat party's talking points. Boy, that must really piss off Democrats knowing the World is seeing in living color just how close they and Osama are linked at the waist.

Pretty smart of Bush, don't you think?? And you guys keep trying to tell us how DUMB Bush is!! HA HA HA!!!

Personally?? I wouldn't waste my time on Osama now. To march into Pakistan and get him would create a mess for Pakistan and at the moment, I really don't want Islamofascists getting a'hold of Pakistan's nukes. Yup, just let him live in those caves lookin' over his shoulder.

What has he done to America since 9/11, by the way?? Eh?? Oh, are we no longer his target??

Just WHOM are the idiots here?? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Obviously from seeing your avatar, and reading this and other posts here, you've managed to describe yourself and your fellow fascists to a "T".

Goodnight and sleep tight. The reich is certainly safe with your type about.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[W4DFW]

Quote[/b] (n2nh @ Sep. 08 2007,01:06)]Goodnight and sleep tight. The reich is certainly safe with your type about.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Don't blame me for what Osama said. You just have to wonder why his video and Democrat talking points are so aligned.

Might you explain that??

I'm sure Noam Chompsky is furiously writing a rebuff to explain that OBL is really a NEOCON!!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

PS: The Reich will sleep well tonight. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (W4DFW @ Sep. 08 2007,22:29)]Quote[/b] (n2nh @ Sep. 08 2007,01:06)]Goodnight and sleep tight. #The reich is certainly safe with your type about.
#http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Don't blame me for what Osama said. #You just have to wonder why his video and Democrat talking points are so aligned. #

Might you explain that??

I'm sure Noam Chompsky is furiously writing a rebuff to explain that OBL is really a NEOCON!!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

PS: #The Reich will sleep well tonight. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Quite amazing how a guy who is hiding in caves and looking over his shoulder is able to produce and distribute videotape after videotape and manage to get them to US authorities yet, not a trace of ol' bin can ever be found. Does that strike you as a little peculiar ? Ah well, perhaps naught.

Why are so many of his talking points so similar ? We don't know that they are. We have yet to hear a transcript or see the actual tape, we only know what we have been told by those who claim to have seen it. From the few talking points that were raised, and assuming they are correct we are seeing a restatement of the obvious, i.e. the corrupt Iraq war that had nothing to do with 911, the failure of the democrats, etc. Even mortal enemies can often agree upon statements of the obvious,

[W4DFW]

Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Sep. 08 2007,02:04)]Quite amazing how a guy who is hiding in caves and looking over his shoulder is able to produce and distribute videotape after videotape and manage to get them to US authorities yet, not a trace of ol' bin can ever be found. Does that strike you as a little peculiar ? Ah well, perhaps naught.
Bonehead, the "videotape" of Osama you've seen was intercepted by our intelligence before it could even find it's way to Al Jezzera. You don't think that we know where it comes from??

Jesus. The stupidity from the left is blinding.

There are consequences to launching a strike into Pakistan. If you have been reading the news, you know about a wee bit of a problem the leader of Pakistan has had over the past few weeks.

Frankly, since you are so smart, I'll let you figure it out.

If you need a hint, let me know.

Looks like the no code license let in a bunch of imbeciles.

You can't be serious!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[kc0ukk]

Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Sep. 08 2007,23:04)]... the corrupt Iraq war that had nothing to do with 911...
This is the crux of our confusion and this is where our politicians have failed us. To those opposed to the Bush administration, 30 years of Islamic attacks are dismissed out of hand as justifiable responses to the insistence that people everywhere have basic human rights.

Let the Moluccas’ suffer for their Christianity, let the Thais suffer for their Buddhism, let the Sudanese die for their Christianity and let the Americans die for theirs. Islam is not to be questioned, it isn’t polite do identify those who seek our destruction.

Rather, let us blame the Jews; the historic perpetrators of world wide evil. It was the Jews that killed Christ; it was the Jews that subjugated Europe to penury in the 18th and 19th centuries, it was the Jews that insisted upon their right to live in their homeland free from persecution.

How many Afghanis were on those planes that took out the NY World Trade Center? How many were to blame for the deaths of the passengers and victims of the Pentagon attack? None? You certainly can’t be serious; why are we attacking Afghanistan? Are the Jews responsible for this too?

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (W4DFW @ Sep. 08 2007,23:27)]Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Sep. 08 2007,02:04)]Quite amazing how a guy who is hiding in caves and looking over his shoulder is able to produce and distribute videotape after videotape and manage to get them to US authorities yet, not a trace of ol' bin can ever be found. Does that strike you as a little peculiar ? Ah well, perhaps naught.
Bonehead, the "videotape" of Osama you've seen was intercepted by our intelligence before it could even find it's way to Al Jezzera. You don't think that we know where it comes from??

Jesus. The stupidity from the left is blinding.

There are consequences to launching a strike into Pakistan. #If you have been reading the news, you know about a wee bit of a problem the leader of Pakistan has had over the past few weeks.

Frankly, since you are so smart, I'll let you figure it out.

If you need a hint, let me know.

Looks like the no code license let in a bunch of imbeciles.

You can't be serious!! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I was expecting a good laugh and I was not dissapointed. You know how it is with us "Johnny come lately" ... no coders. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif You gotta be smart to figure out so quickly that I'm one of them no coders. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ad4mg]

Quote[/b] (kc0ukk @ Sep. 09 2007,02:51)]Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Sep. 08 2007,23:04)]... the corrupt Iraq war that had nothing to do with 911...
This is the crux of our confusion and this is where our politicians have failed us. To those opposed to the Bush administration, 30 years of Islamic attacks are dismissed out of hand as justifiable responses to the insistence that people everywhere have basic human rights.

Let the Moluccas’ suffer for their Christianity, let the Thais suffer for their Buddhism, let the Sudanese die for their Christianity and let the Americans die for theirs. Islam is not to be questioned, it isn’t polite do identify those who seek our destruction.

Rather, let us blame the Jews; the historic perpetrators of world wide evil. It was the Jews that killed Christ; it was the Jews that subjugated Europe to penury in the 18th and 19th centuries, it was the Jews that insisted upon their right to live in their homeland free from persecution.

How many Afghanis were on those planes that took out the NY World Trade Center? How many were to blame for the deaths of the passengers and victims of the Pentagon attack? None? You certainly can’t be serious; why are we attacking Afghanistan? Are the Jews responsible for this too?
Yes, this is where we disagree, and where the disagreement begins. I've stated before that the Bush administration had my total support during the invasion of Afghanistan. Why? Because the Taliban had taken over the government of that country, and the Taliban harbored al Qaeda terrorists. And al Qaeda was the organization that attacked us.

Were there any Afghanis on those planes? No. Not that I'm aware of. There were lots of Saudis! We've not attacked them! So, my view is rather simplistic, we attacked the people that attacked us. Unfortunate that they had allied with the thugs that took control of Afghanistan.

It's fairly simple to put 2 and 2 together to see the justification for invading Afghanistan.

I cannot grasp your explanation for invading Iraq. Everything you lay out, the 30 years of Islamic attacks, had little or nothing to do with Iraq. Islam existed in Iraq, but so did Christianity. Saddam was indeed, a bad person, but that can't be an acceptable reason for us to invade. Human rights cannot either. If they are valid reasons for invading a country, then we have a very long list to follow.

I'll make it more palatable for you. When we invaded Afghanistan, I was proud of my country. We did this to defend our right to exist. Damn the terrorists for attacking us. They should be made to pay, and make them pay, we did. I was proud of the united stand we took. Partisan politics had disappeared for the sake of defending our freedom. This country was the greatest force on the planet, with the civilized part of the planet solidly behind us. Honest to God, true Patriotism flowed through the veins of nearly every American alive. It was a defining moment for our country, and we did everything right. We were unstoppable, and justifiably so. All the concepts of modern civilization were on our side.

Then we attacked Iraq. I spoke out against this during the planning stages of this invasion. On March 20, 2003, I took down my American flag from the front of my house. I haven't flown it since. On that day, and every day since, I've been ashamed of our country. And today, I'm ashamed of what we did to Iraq. The pain and suffering inflicted upon the Iraqis by us is far worse than any Saddam inflicted upon his own people. We destroyed the infrastructure, and the terrorists now inhabit the country like cockroaches in the kitchen. Innocent Iraqis are blown to bits daily by terrorist bombs. The death toll in Iraq since we invaded is staggering. We cannot justify this level of carnage. It isn't just, it isn't righteous, and it made us no safer. Partisan politics have returned, the country is divided, and the civilized world has turned their backs on us. These are the harsh realities. We screwed up, and badly.

As to Osama bin Laden, there are practical reasons as to why we don't have him. I understand that, but this president used the faith and support of the American people frivolously in his speeches, and he played the Patriotism of the American people like a pair of aces in a poker game. Too bad al Qaeda was holding three of a kind. His rhetorical generalizations in his speeches were designed to rally the troops at home, but he didn't understand that he was burning his political capital, because the American people listened to him, and they trusted him. Look at his approval ratings following the attacks of 9/11. Look at them today. He played the American people for fools, for his political gain, and the American people no longer support him. In one of his brash speeches, he promised to bring bin Laden to justice. We're holding his feet to the fire on this, because he promised. We trusted him, and he promised. And this is why I despise this president and his administration, and I do not stand alone here. I stand with the majority of Americans.

Now, we are forced to atone for our mistakes. It shouldn't be pretty, nor should it be easy. We should suffer, miserably, for what we've done. We abused our global support, our military might, and we're wrong. It should be a dark chapter in our history, else we no longer deserve to exist as defined by the founding fathers of this nation.

My view is simple, cut and dry, and easy to understand. You may believe your explanations for what we've done, but I can't buy into it, as it has the appearance of a tale woven after tha fact. Your explanation for invading Iraq does not justify why we did it ... no more than the 3 or 4 different reasons put forth by this administration.

We are no safer because we invaded Iraq, and even if we were, it doesn't justify the horrors we've inflicted upon the people of Iraq. We created a dandy training camp for the terrorists, and I'd say that these terrorists will see to it that we pay a terrible price for what we've done. We emboldened them, we created many of them, and when they attack us, being the fools we are, we'll find someone else to blame.

This is the way of the new America. We've wagered the future of our very existence upon this new set of ideals, this nation building concept, this concept of world domination, of spreading democracy via military action.

Are we so sure we're right? I guess we damn sure better be.





Posted without edit, probably with typos, to convey exactly how I feel about my country. Take it for what it's worth, and accept that I'll take each opinion I've stated with me to my grave.

73,
Luke

[kc0ukk]

Quote[/b] (ad4mg @ Sep. 09 2007,03:12)]Quote[/b] (kc0ukk @ Sep. 09 2007,02:51)]Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Sep. 08 2007,23:04)]... the corrupt Iraq war that had nothing to do with 911...
This is the crux of our confusion and this is where our politicians have failed us. To those opposed to the Bush administration, 30 years of Islamic attacks are dismissed out of hand as justifiable responses to the insistence that people everywhere have basic human rights.

Let the Moluccas’ suffer for their Christianity, let the Thais suffer for their Buddhism, let the Sudanese die for their Christianity and let the Americans die for theirs. Islam is not to be questioned, it isn’t polite do identify those who seek our destruction.

Rather, let us blame the Jews; the historic perpetrators of world wide evil. #It was the Jews that killed Christ; it was the Jews that subjugated Europe to penury in the 18th and 19th centuries, it was the Jews that insisted upon their right to live in their homeland free from persecution.

How many Afghanis were on those planes that took out the NY World Trade Center? How many were to blame for the deaths of the passengers and victims of the Pentagon attack? #None? #You certainly can’t be serious; why are we attacking Afghanistan? #Are the Jews responsible for this too?
Yes, this is where we disagree, and where the disagreement begins. #I've stated before that the Bush administration had my total support during the invasion of Afghanistan. #Why? #Because the Taliban had taken over the government of that country, and the Taliban harbored al Qaeda terrorists. #And al Qaeda was the organization that attacked us.

Were there any Afghanis on those planes? #No. #Not that I'm aware of. #There were lots of Saudis! #We've not attacked them! #So, my view is rather simplistic, we attacked the people that attacked us. #Unfortunate that they had allied with the thugs that took control of Afghanistan.

It's fairly simple to put 2 and 2 together to see the justification for invading Afghanistan.

I cannot grasp your explanation for invading Iraq. #Everything you lay out, the 30 years of Islamic attacks, had little or nothing to do with Iraq. #Islam existed in Iraq, but so did Christianity. #Saddam was indeed, a bad person, but that can't be an acceptable reason for us to invade. #Human rights cannot either. #If they are valid reasons for invading a country, then we have a very long list to follow.

I'll make it more palatable for you. #When we invaded Afghanistan, I was proud of my country. #We did this to defend our right to exist. #Damn the terrorists for attacking us. #They should be made to pay, and make them pay, we did. #I was proud of the united stand we took. #Partisan politics had disappeared for the sake of defending our freedom. #This country was the greatest force on the planet, with the civilized part of the planet solidly behind us. #Honest to God, true Patriotism flowed through the veins of nearly every American alive. #It was a defining moment for our country, and we did everything right. #We were unstoppable, and justifiably so. #All the concepts of modern civilization were on our side.

Then we attacked Iraq. #I spoke out against this during the planning stages of this invasion. #On March 20, 2003, I took down my American flag from the front of my house. #I haven't flown it since. #On that day, and every day since, I've been ashamed of our country. #And today, I'm ashamed of what we did to Iraq. #The pain and suffering inflicted upon the Iraqis by us is far worse than any Saddam inflicted upon his own people. #We destroyed the infrastructure, and the terrorists now inhabit the country like cockroaches in the kitchen. #Innocent Iraqis are blown to bits daily by terrorist bombs. #The death toll in Iraq since we invaded is staggering. #We cannot justify this level of carnage. #It isn't just, it isn't righteous, and it made us no safer. #Partisan politics have returned, the country is divided, and the civilized world has turned their backs on us. #These are the harsh realities. #We screwed up, and badly.

As to Osama bin Laden, there are practical reasons as to why we don't have him. #I understand that, but this president used the faith and support of the American people frivolously in his speeches, and he played the Patriotism of the American people like a pair of aces in a poker game. #Too bad al Qaeda was holding three of a kind. #His rhetorical generalizations in his speeches were designed to rally the troops at home, but he didn't understand that he was burning his political capital, because the American people listened to him, and they trusted him. #Look at his approval ratings following the attacks of 9/11. #Look at them today. #He played the American people for fools, for his political gain, and the American people no longer support him. #In one of his brash speeches, he promised to bring bin Laden to justice. #We're holding his feet to the fire on this, because he promised. #We trusted him, and he promised. #And this is why I despise this president and his administration, and I do not stand alone here. #I stand with the majority of Americans.

Now, we are forced to atone for our mistakes. #It shouldn't be pretty, nor should it be easy. #We should suffer, miserably, for what we've done. #We abused our global support, our military might, and we're wrong. #It should be a dark chapter in our history, else we no longer deserve to exist as defined by the founding fathers of this nation.

My view is simple, cut and dry, and easy to understand. #You may believe your explanations for what we've done, but I can't buy into it, as it has the appearance of a tale woven after tha fact. #Your explanation for invading Iraq does not justify why we did it ... no more than the 3 or 4 different reasons put forth by this administration.

We are no safer because we invaded Iraq, and even if we were, it doesn't justify the horrors we've inflicted upon the people of Iraq. #We created a dandy training camp for the terrorists, and I'd say that these terrorists will see to it that we pay a terrible price for what we've done. #We emboldened them, we created many of them, and when they attack us, being the fools we are, we'll find someone else to blame.

This is the way of the new America. #We've wagered the future of our very existence upon this new set of ideals, this nation building concept, this concept of world domination, of spreading democracy via military action.

Are we so sure we're right? #I guess we damn sure better be.





Posted without edit, probably with typos, to convey exactly how I feel about my country. #Take it for what it's worth, and accept that I'll take each opinion I've stated with me to my grave.

73,
Luke
Good response, Luke, a veritable dearth of ad hominem attacks along with reasoned arguments. #We’ll probably disagree in the end, but voicing our differing views can only broaden our understanding allowing us to more nearly approximate our shared goals. #The following is my assessment of the political situation in the Middle-East; it will be left to others to ascertain how well it fits the ground upon which we currently stand. #I will attempt, in my own words, to overlay the current administration’s actions to the situation as I see it. #I will not attempt to justify the propaganda used to justify the actions taken by the Bush administration even though I recognize the need for such propaganda.

Islam is a problem around the world; from the Middle-East, to Africa, to Europe, to the Philippines, to Indonesia and to Thailand to name a few. #The US has been subjected to a series of Islamic attacks for the past 30 years, some of them sponsored by nation states, most of them, though by Islamists without nation state support.

The Taliban did, in fact, take over Afghanistan just as they have wrested control of Waziristan from the Pakistani government. #The Afghanis initially welcomed the Taliban as their rescuers from secular war lords, bringing peace and unity to a war torn land. #The Taliban, however, succumbed to hubris and the seduction of power resulting in their degeneration into Islamic dictators.

Afghanistan was no longer Afghanistan. It became part of the Islamic ummah and its borders became those of the caliphate. Saudis, Jordanians, Syrians, Pakistanis, Iraqis and Afghanis and others merged their efforts within Afghanistan to spread the ummah to other neighboring states.

Pakistan, with its nuclear capability, was vulnerable to the Islamic interests. #The Pakistani military had held the Taliban at bay by force of arms but the Taliban’s grip within Pakistan was becoming stronger by the day. #Not forever would Pakistan remain a secular nation-state. We are witnessing its dissolution as we speak.

The Islamist’s in Iran are working feverously to develop a nuclear capability. There too, the secularists, while great in number, lack the power to manage their destiny. #The Islamists in Iran seek the return of their storied past, the Persian Empire, this time as the home of the caliphate.

Saudi Arabia, the home of the radical Wahhibi brand of Islam, has a very precarious grip on power. #The royal family can maintain power only by allowing the imposition of Sharia law and the massive funding of Wahhibi madrassas throughout the Middle-East and the rest of the world. #The sole purpose of these madrassas is to spread Wahhibi Islam world wide.

In Turkey, as in Pakistan, it is the military that has maintained the power of the secular state over the Islamists who wish the return of the caliphate. #Denied entry into the European Union, Turkey has to seek its fortune within the Middle-East which only abets the struggles of the Islamists to overturn the secular government.

Lebanon is a failed state. #Once Christian, its very survival is now dependent upon the intervention of Syria whose interests are, at least temporarily, those of Iran. #The Christians are being overwhelmed by the Palestinian ‘refugees’, Syrian laborors, and the Iranian backed Hezbollah.

Syria, another secular dictatorship with an 80% Sunni Muslim population, sees its proper role as the ‘Greater Syria’ which encompasses Lebanon, Israel and Palestine. #Syria is not, however, a major player. #It lacks industry, infrastructure and basic economic resources.

Iraq is another secular state whose power was enforced through military oppression of Islamists. #Under Saddam Hussein, Iraq challenged Saudi Arabia, Iran, Kuwait and Syria for regional hegemony. Iraq sought a nuclear capability, but had its plans disrupted when Israel took out Iraq’s Osirak nuclear facility in 1981. #Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait and concomitant threatened invasion of Saudi Arabia in 1990, placed Iraq in the role of a loose cannon; a country whose actions could not be predicted.

I cannot adequately address the existence of Israel in this context. #Yes, Israel appears to be the focal point of Middle-East unrest, but I will posit that Israel is the excuse for the unrest, not the cause. I will also posit that Israel has a right to exist; that the Jews have a right to live in peace in their historic homeland. #Neither Jews nor Christians can flourish in an Islamic Middle-East; any objective view of history will support this assertion. #As non-believers, they are granted few rights as citizens and are denied justice within the courts and exist only at the will of the Islamists.

As we look at these countries, we find the common thread of Islamic pressure for hegemony; the restoration of the caliphate and the imposition of Islamic rule. #Islam is a political philosophy with a religious foundation. #While there are Muslims throughout the world who may live in peace with their neighbors and who seek no Islamic political power, there are a great many others who do seek such power. #We have seen Islamic power exercised in Iran, Afghanistan, Palestine, Egypt, Turkey, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Pakistan, Russia, the Philippines, Thailand, India and Africa.

This is the difficulty facing the modern world. #It isn’t simply this nation-state or that nation-state with which we must deal. It is that all of these nation-states themselves face usurpation of their sovereignty by Islamists seeking to control not only the destiny of the Middle-East, but of the entire world.

We may scoff at such claims; they appear to be absurd on the surface, but are they? With the control of world’s largest known oil reserves lying within the breast of Islamist Middle-East, such power is considerable indeed. #Especially upon Europe who has little oil of its own.

Then there is 9/11, the attack upon the USA, the deaths of thousands of our citizens, the disruption of our financial markets and our airlines. Who is responsible for this attack and what is an appropriate response? #Was it the Taliban who ordered this attack upon the USA? #Of course not, they were themselves captured by yet greater powers. Islamists, who had established themselves within Pakistan and Afghanistan planned and carried out these attacks.

Nevertheless, we invaded Afghanistan, drove the Taliban from power and destroyed the Islamic sanctuaries. #We did not, however, topple the Islamists themselves. #They, together with the Taliban, moved across the border into Pakistan. #But not only Pakistan; the Islamists returned to the other nation-states in the Middle-East, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Palestine where they continued their quest for supremacy.

The problem was much larger than the relatively impotent Taliban; those religious bigots were only useful idiots in a game much larger than they had understood. #Our problem, and that of the free world, was to ameliorate the destructive influence of the Islamists. This was a much greater challenge than pushing Iraq out of Kuwait or toppling the Taliban in Afghanistan. #We had to decide if we were to play whack-a-mole repeatedly or to take an action which would, if successful, replicate itself throughout the Middle-East.

This bold, daring and to some, foolhardy plan was to supplant Islamist Sharia with secular governments. #Was it possible to do so in the face of the Islamic faith? #Turkey had done so as had Iran under Shaw Muhammad Reza Pahlavi. #Neither was wholly satisfactory, but both encouraged the education of the general populace, including women; both encouraged industrialization, investments in business and basic human rights. Both Turkey and Iran had brought their citizens into the 20th century.

Pakistan was attempting to do the same, as was India and Jordan. #Egypt, with many fitful starts and stops, was also trying to cement secular government in place. #Iraq also had a secular government, but under the control of the maniacal Saddam, who murdered his own citizens to keep them under his control and continuously challenged Iran, Kuwait and threatened Saudi Arabia. #Saddam was, in his mind, the new Saladin.

With the invasion of Afghanistan, we created a displacement of the al Qaeda and other Islamic forces into Pakistan; a country with nuclear weapons. #We had to bolster the secular government of Pakistan to keep those weapons out of the hands of the Islamists. #How to do this became our next pressing problem. #With a strong Islamist faction within Pakistan’s military, an invasion would have resulted in an immediate split among the military and Musharraf’s regime would end with grave portents for the future. #We could not take that risk, especially in light of the nuclear weapons.

With Iranian Mullahs pursuing a nuclear program and with Iraq’s nuclear program at best in abeyance, we had a choice to make. #Would it be better to invade Iran, leaving Iraq to its own devices or to invade Iraq? #Iraq was the better choice for several reasons. #The Iranians stood a much better chance of wresting control from the Mullahs than Iraqis did with Saddam. #Nor were the Mullahs as foolish as Saddam; they did not seek to poke a sharp stick into each of their neighbor’s eyes. #Finally, the Arab al-Qaeda stood a much better chance interceding within Iraq than they would Persian Iran.

It was thought that by focusing al-Qaeda efforts in Iraq, we would relieve the immediate pressure upon Pakistan. #This part of the plan was successful; rather than focusing their efforts upon Pakistan, the al-Qaeda did turn their attention to Iraq. #On the other hand, America’s tendency to play whack-a-mole hurt our efforts with the Iraqis. #They saw US intervention as temporary at best and in no way sincere. Our efforts to foment an uprising following the Gulf War which we quickly abandoned only added to Iraqi distrust. #For the Iraqis, it was each man for himself.

That was the major flaw in Bush’s plan. He underestimated how much our inconstant support of our allies had cost us. #Bush was not alone in this regard, many both within the administration and without, underestimated what our pragmatic withdrawals from Viet Nam, Somalia and the Gulf War had cost our nation. #Bush had every reason to believe that not only the Kurds, but the Shia Muslims would jump at the chance to be free of Sunni domination. #Had such occurred, the Kurds, Shia and US would have joined forces against the displaced Sunni Baathists and the al Qaeda.

The senior Shia cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali Al Sistani, has thrown his considerable influence behind the new Iraqi government, but the forces of Moqtada al Sadr are playing up to the Iranian interests. #The Iraqi government reflects these divisions among its people, resulting in the standoff we see today.

The US will need resolve if we are to succeed in Iraq. With the surge, we offer the Iraqis a consistency they did not expect us to demonstrate. #This consistency has damaged the strength of Moqtada al Sadr’s forces and weakened the alliance between the al Qaeda and the Sunni. #With a strong Iraqi nation as a US ally, Iran, Pakistan and Syria will be effectively checked. #The al Qaeda will once again be forced underground and their influence greatly weakened.

[ad4mg]

Very informative post, Matthew. I'll admit my understanding of the region pales in comparison to yours, but I grasp the theories. If your reasoning is sound, I can certainly understand your frustration of the way Bush has handled all of this.

We agree on key points ... Islam does present a danger, that is obvious. How to counter the threat presents the big debate. I believe any "help" we have provided Pakistan with the pressures of their internal conflict with radical Islamists will be short lived, and temporary in nature. Those nukes are going to have to be dealt with somewhere down the road.

The middle east has always been a very complicated region to understand, with the tribal nature of rule being more the norm, and the manner in which region has been carved up into "countries" over the course of modern history just aggravates the situation. Israel, of course, is more of an excuse for the radicals than it is a real problem for them, but they offer little towards any solution with their behavior towards Palestine.

I'll put some effort into a better understanding of the region and its politics, and perhaps, in time, I'll be informed enough to offer a reasonable point of view on the subject.

Thanks for the civil exchange! We could use more of this here.

73

[W4DFW]

Quote[/b] (kc0ukk @ Sep. 08 2007,19:59)]The US will need resolve if we are to succeed in Iraq. With the surge, we offer the Iraqis a consistency they did not expect us to demonstrate. This consistency has damaged the strength of Moqtada al Sadr’s forces and weakened the alliance between the al Qaeda and the Sunni. With a strong Iraqi nation as a US ally, Iran, Pakistan and Syria will be effectively checked. The al Qaeda will once again be forced underground and their influence greatly weakened.
By GOLLY I think you're on to something!! Excellent post!!

If only the Lib'rul Lunes would listen . . . http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif