Amateur Radio Newsline Report 1569 [Archive]

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AA7BQ

09-07-2007, 04:07 PM

The following is a QST. A report says that New York City's communications infrastructure cannot handle another 911; ham radio faces hurricane Felix, NATO chimes in on BPL and President Bush declares September as National Preparedness Month. Find out more on Amateur Radio Newsline™ report number 1569 coming your way right now.

RESCUE RADIO: NYC IS NOT PREPARED FOR ANOTHER 911

The communications infrastructure of New York City is not prepared to face another 911 attack or any other truly catastrophic event. This is the conclusion one reaches early on when reading the article Emergency Comms in New York City by John Kasupski, KC2HMZ. It's in the September issue of Popular Communications magazine. Bill Pasternak, WA6ITF, takes a look at what the author has to say:

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In his article John Kasupski asks a rhetorical question. Would the vital police, fire and E-M-S personnel responding to such an incident be any better off in their communications capabilities today than they were six years ago? He answers the question by stating that as of this past June the evidence suggests that they would not be any better off than they were on September 11, 2001.

The article cites the results of an investigation by WABC television reporter N.J. Burkett. Among the things Burkett discovered was that a battery back-up system for the New York fire department radio system was supposed to last 24 hours. It didn't. And the emergency 911 call system bogged down after a 2006 power failure. Priority callers had to wait up to 20 minutes to get a response.

Interoperability with adjoining communities also remains a problem. A quoted report from WCBS news said that even though New York City has an 800 MHz radio system, the current approach for providing communications between the city and its neighboring counties remains the telephone. And that’s unreliable for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that no one particular agency seems to have current phone number to reach its counterpart in an adjacent community.

Kasupski's article is a graphic lesson on how local politicians have completely failed to bring the city's emergency response radio system into line with the times we live in. It should also serve as a reminder to radio amateurs in the metro New York metro area as why they need to be ready to respond at a moments notice.

If all that John Kasupski, KC2HMZ, states in his article is correct, then the City of New York is still totally reliant on hams in time of crisis even thought that fact won't be realized until the time comes for them to respond.

History does seem to have a way of repeating itself.

For the Amateur Radio Newsline, I'm Bill Pasternak, WA6ITF, originally from the City of New York and now in the studio in Los Angeles.

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You can read John Kasupski's story on the emergency communications problems facing the New York City beginning on page 15 of the September issue of Popular Communications magazine. (ARNewsline™)

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RESCUE RADIO: HURRICANE FELIX SLAMS NICARAGUA

There have been more busy days for hams across the Caribbean and in Central America. This as Hurricane Felix slammed into Nicaragua, on Tuesday, September 4th .

Packing 160 mph winds, the storm peeled roofs off buildings, knocked down utility poles and damaged upward of 5,000 homes near Puerto Cabezas. Virtually all normal lines of communications were knocked out and again it became a case of Amateur Radio being on the front line:

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Audio of XE2WCG reporting hospital closure due to flooding and missing sailors. Hear it by downloading this weeks audio newscast at www.arnewsline.org.

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That report was relayed over the Voice over I P Hurricane Watch Net. Ham radio operators also used it to relay storm reports back to the National Hurricane Center in Miami.

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Audio of XE2WCG reporting high winds and rising river in northern Nicaragua. Hear it by downloading this weeks audio newscast at www.arnewsline.org.

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At least three people were killed and thousands forced to seek shelter as Felix pushed over Nicaragua and Honduras. Despite quickly diminishing from a Category 5 hurricane to a tropical depression, Felix sparked fears torrential rains and wide spread flooding. At least 8 to 12 inches of rain were expected across much of Nicaragua and El Salvador, with 10 to 15 inches forecast for Honduras. Hams across the area say that they will remain on alert until the 2007 hurricane season has passed. (ARNewsline™ with audio supplied by KD1CY)

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RESCUE RADIO: SEPTEMBER IS NATIONAL PREPAREDNESS MONTH

Meantime, President George W. Bush has proclaimed September as National Preparedness Month. In making his announcement the President called on all U.S. citizens to recognize the importance of being ready for potential emergencies. He also asked citizens to observe this month by participating in appropriate events, activities, and preparedness programs.

The President went on to say that protecting America's homeland and its citizens is the shared responsibility of the entire Nation. He said that individuals can prepare themselves and their families for emergencies by taking simple steps such as organizing an emergency supply kit, making a personal preparedness plan, becoming informed about different threats, and getting involved in preparing their community. The President says that these activities create a culture of preparedness and can help save lives.

For our world of Amateur Radio, the Presidents words have special meaning. This is because ham radio continues to prove its worth each time a disaster situation brings down a regions established communications infrastructure. Being non-centralized and having no common point of failure means that ham radio emergency communications can continue to operate when all else fails as it did on 9 11 2001 in New York and two years ago in New Orleans during and after Hurricane Katrina. (Published news reports)

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THE BPL FIGHT: NATO REPORT ON EFFECTS OF BPL RELEASED

NATO, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, has issued a report of the anticipated effects that widespread implementation of Broadband over Powerline communications technology would have on the High Frequency spectrum..

Particular emphasis is placed on ambient noise in "quite rural" zones and the "Absolute Protection Requirement". Among the conclusion that the report reaches are that there is a high probability that BPL would cause increased noise levels at sensitive receiver sites given the projected market penetration. Also, the percentages are highly influenced by assumptions on transmitter power level, market penetration, and duty cycle.

The entire report can be downloaded at http://ftp.rta.nato.int/public. One warning though. The file in PDF format is about 9 megabytes in size. (WIA, Southgate)

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BREAK 1

From the United States of America, We are the Amateur Radio Newsline, heard on bulletin stations around the world including the W8GK repeater serving Charleston West Virginia.

(5 sec pause here)

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ENFORCEMENT: TWO POWER UTILITIES CITED FOR INTEFERENCE TO TEXAS HAM

The Federal Communication Commission's Dallas Field Office has issued Citations to two utilities in a longstanding power line noise case in Lubbock, Texas. Amateur Radio Newsline's Don Carlson, KQ6FM, reports:

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Bryan Edwards, W5KFT, of Lubbock, first reported the interference claiming interference from two utilities in early 1994. The alleged sources were electric providers Lubbock Power & Light and Xcel Energy. Since then it has been an up-hill battle for Edwards, but a pair of citations issued to the energy providers by the FCC this past July 25th may now bring the entire matter to a head.

According to an ARRL bulletin, the citations issues say that an investigation conducted by the Dallas FCC office was conducted this past May 22nd to the 25th . That it found both utilities had caused harmful interference to the reception of amateur communications to W5KFT. The FCC then directed both utilities to provide documents and information within 10 days of their respective citations.

In its undated response Lubbock Power & Light stated that it does not admit to and specifically denies any violation of the Communications Act or any rule pertaining thereto.

Xcel's response was far more positive. It pointed out that the citation acknowledges that the source of harmful interference is from more than one power company. Xcel also claims that it 'has been working with a Edwards for a number of years in an effort to identify the source of, and a possible resolution for, the interference he is experiencing. Xcel Energy says that it has a good working relationship with Edwards and has coordinated with him on numerous occasions in attempting to resolve his interference problems.

Xcel then stated its intention to retain an outside technical consultant to provide an unbiased assessment of whether the harmful interference to W5KFT is attributable to Xcel Energy's power system and if so, what corrective measures would be required. And even before the ink was dry on its response, it acted.

On August 30th Edwards reported that he received a phone call from Paul Leonard, head of Xcel Energy in West Texas. Edwards said he was told that Xcel has contracted with Mike Martin, K3RFI, of RFI Services to come to Lubbock in October to work on locating the source of the line noise.

Xcel Energy's Leonard added that his company tried to get Lubbock Power & Light to participate with them, but they refused. At airtime, what measures Lubbock Power & Light may take to solve the interference its lines are causing to Edwards operations is unknown.

For the Amateur Radio Newsline, I'm Don Casrlson, KQ6FM, in Reno.

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According to the ARRL, Mike Martin's firm RFI Services is dedicated exclusively to RFI locating and training. Martin has been locating interference sources for more than 25 years, solving an average of 500 complaints a year. K3RFI has also given power line interference workshops at ARRL Headquarters (ARRL)

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ENFORCEMENT: SHARPLES WITHDRAWS HAM LICENSE APPLICATION

The FCC has issued an Order of Dismissal and Termination to Florida resident Jack R. Sharples for an Amateur Radio license. This, after accepting his voluntary termination of his application.

Back in May of this year the FCC had designated Sharples application for an administrative hearing. This based on evidence it had showing that Sharples was a convicted felon and registered sexual predator. The FCC said that the felony conviction was for at least one sex related offense involving a child. As such it raised material and substantial questions as to whether Sharples held the requisite character qualifications to be a Commission licensee.

Sharples was given 20 days from the date of the Hearing Designation Order being issued to respond. He did so on June 19th with a filing to the presiding Administrative Law Judge. In it Sharples gave his reasons for filing an Amateur Radio license even in light of his felony convictions. The FCC considered this response to be a good faith Notice of Appearance by Sharples.

But on June 27th it appears as if Sharples changed his mind. On that date he sent a FAX to the presiding Administrative Law Judge. In it he voluntarily withdrew his Amateur Radio license application. The FCC dismissed his application on August 1st . (FCC)

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ENFORCEMENT: FCC DISMISES CASTLE RENEWAL APPLICATION

The FCC has dismissed the license renewal application of David O. Castle, WA9KJI. This, after the former Evansville, Indiana, ham failed to request a written appearance before an Administrative Law Judge and also did not appear at a pre-hearing conference in Washington, D. C. on August 13th .

According to the FCC, the agency had designated Castle's license renewal for a hearing last May 24th . This, based on the years of complaints it has received regarding his on the air operation. The FCC says that since 1998, Castle had been warned repeatedly to refrain from intentionally interfering with radio communications; broadcasting without communicating with any particular station; causing interference on amateur repeaters; using amateur repeaters without authorization, and using indecent, slanderous or harassing language.

When Castle filed to renew his license the FCC instead set the request aside and issued a Hearing Designation Order. In it, the FCC stated that it found Castle's continuing course of conduct raised questions as to whether he possesses the requisite character qualifications to remain a Commission licensee. (FCC)

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ENFORCEMENT: L.A. HAMS TOLD TO STAY OFF K6GE REPEATER

The FCC has ordered two Los Angeles area hams to stay off of an area repeater. In August 23rd letters to ,Norman Ball, KE6VWN, of Sunland, and Richard Martin, KE6RJI, of Maywood, California, the FCC warned both hams to avoid using the K6GE repeater or face punitive action,

According to the FCC, both hams had been requested by the repeater operator to refrain from using the K6GE system. The regulatory agency says that both hams apparently ignored both verbal and written requests to do so. Now they have been told that they could wind up facing fines of up to $10,000 if they ignore the FCC's order to keep off of the K6GE machine. (FCC)

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COMMUNICATIONS LAW: NPRM TO ALLOW THE USE OF FM TRANSLATORS BY AM STATIONS

Here's a follow-up to a story regarding translators in the broadcast spectrum. Back on July 14, 2006, the National Association of Broadcasters filed a Petition for Rulemaking with the FCC. One proposing that the Commission amend its rules to allow AM broadcast stations to operate FM translator stations as a fill-in service.

The CGC Communicator reports that the FCC received over 500 comments with overwhelming support for the proposal. So now the FCC is proposing rules permitting the use of FM translators by AM stations and has issued an NPRM that examines the issues related to such a rule change. This includes the issue of program origination at night over FM translators used by daytime-only AM stations. (CGC)

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THE SOCIAL SCENE: PEORIA SUPERFEST - SEPTEMBER 15 - 16

Turning to the ham radio social scene, the Peoria Superfest is slated for September 15th and 16th at the Exposition Gardens, Peoria Illinois. This show is best known for its great flea market. More information is on the web at www.peoriasuperfest.com (Via e-mail)

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THE SOCIAL SCENE: 2007 AMSAT SPACE SYMPOSIUM - OCT 26 - 28

And his years AMSAT Space Symposium will take place on October 26th to the 28th in Pennsylvania. The venue is the Airport Mariott Hotel in Coraopolis with Sy Liebergot as the keynote Speaker is. Liebergot is the project Apollo Electrical, Environmental, Consumables Flight Controller. More information about this years AMSAT Space Symposium is on-line at the U-R-L in this weeks printed Newsline report.

(DO NOT READ: For general club information about the 2007 AMSAT Space symposium, visit www.amsat.org or http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/symposium/2007/index.php (AMSAT)

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MAMES IN THE NEWS: KB2GSD NAMED LIFETIME MEMBER OF RCA

Some names in the news. The Radio Club of America has conferred Honorary Membership on retired CBS newsman Walter Cronkite, KB2GSD.

In making the announcement, Craig Jorgensen, chairman of the club's Membership Committee, said that Cronkite was selected for three reasons. First, that Walter Cronkite represents excellence in broadcasting and journalistic achievement. Second, that KB2GSD has worked to promote amateur radio which Jorgenson cites as an important segment of the clubs membership and one that fosters advancement of the radio art. Lastly, that Cronkite has encouraged young people to take up an interest in radio communications.

Honorary membership is the highest distinction given by the Radio Club of America. In its nearly 99-year history, the club has given out only 26 honorary memberships. (RCA)

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NAMES IN THE NEWS: W6DWI NEW NCS FOR NORCAL 2 METER SSB NET

Robin Whiting, W6DWI, who has become the new Net Control station of the famed NORCAL 2m SSB Net. This long standing gathering is held every Thursday 8:00 p.m.. Pacific on 144.250 MHz using upper sideband.

W6DWI is located in Woodland, California in grid square C M 98 d q. He says he will begin taking early check-ins starting about 7:50 p.m.. Also, he plans to use the same roll call in the same order as his predecessor Paul I Hammer, KA6CHJ.

If you are in the Northern California area and in earshot of the net, you are invited to drop by. (VHF Reflector)

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BREAK 2

This is ham radio news for today’s radio amateur. From the United States of America, We are the Amateur Radio Newsline with links to the world from our only official website at www.arnewsline.org and being relayed by the volunteer services of the following radio amateur:

(5 sec pause here)

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EMERGING TECHNOLOGY: NEW FIREPROOF LI ON BATTERIES

New lithium-ion batteries being developed for hybrid electric automobiles may hold promise as a dependable high power source of emergency communications power. This, as A123 Systems of Watertown, Massachusetts announces a new type of high power lithium ion cell not prone to the fire hazards associated with current batteries.

Although the lithium-ion cells you see in laptops and mobile phones pack twice as much energy per pound as any other current battery, they have not been adopted for hybrid cars and other power demanding uses because they are worryingly prone to fires. But A123 believes it has solved the fire potential problem with a new lithium-ion design that utilizes a special formulation for the battery's cathode.

Lithium Ion battery fires seem to begin when a small manufacturing defect, perhaps compounded by overcharging, causes oxygen to separate from the cathode. As the cell overheats, it can prime oxidation in neighboring cells, a process known as thermal runaway. A123 overcomes the problem by making its cathodes out of iron phosphate, which bonds to the oxygen far more powerfully than does the cobalt dioxide found in conventional lithium-ion batteries. So its cells are theoretically far less subject to oxidation, and thus less prone to thermal runaway.

A123's batteries are already in use in other applications demanding a combination of power and safety. More on these new lithium ion batteries is on-line at www.a123systems.com/ (IEEE Spectrum via Science OnLine.)

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ON THE WWW: NEW GRIDFINDER AT QRZ.COM

The popular QRZ.com website has added a new feature. It's called GridFinder and it can be used to determine the Grid and latitude and longitude coordinates for just about any point on the planet. Check it out at www.qrz.com/gridfinder (QRZ)

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ON THE WWW: VHF DATABASE UPDATES IN OCTOBER

DL8EBW says via the VHF Reflector that the next issue of the VHF-Database will be on-line in October. This on-line facility provides information on 51011 data entries of interest to those who operate the world above 50 MHz. You will find it on-line at www.mmmonvhf.de (VHF Reflector)

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HAM RADIO IN SPACE: PACKET RETURNS TO THE ISS

Some good news from Earth orbit. Packet is once again on the air from the International Space Station.

The first beacon was reported at 2110 UTC on Tuesday, September 4th by JH4XSY in Japan on 145.825 Simplex. A bit later at 2136 UTC WA4AEJ had an APRS confirmation from R0ISS.

Ken Ransom, N5VHO is the I-S-S Ham Radio Project Engineer. He says that we will all have to watch and see how long the packet system stays active. (ARISS)

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HAM RADIO IN SPACE: FIRST EVER ARISS CONTACT WITH SCHOOL IN CHINA

Add China to the list of nations whose school students have now talked to an Astronaut and ham aboard the International Space Station.

On Sunday, August 26th some twenty students Nanjing No. 3 High School got the chance to speak with astronaut and ham radio operator Clay Anderson, KD5PLA. Questions were asked and answered as approximately 300 students and parents looked on. (ANS)

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HAM RADIO IN SPACE: CREATING A NEW SATELLITE IOTA AWARD

Eric Christensen,W4OTN, is proposing creating a Satellite Islands on the Air) award. Christsensen, who serves as AMSAT Area Coordinator for Southeastern Virginia, is currently soliciting comments to support his request to the Islands on the Air Board of Directors. If you are interested in supporting this new award, please submit your comments to W4OTN at http://eric-sparks.blogspot.com/2007....on.html (http://eric-sparks.blogspot.com/2007/08/official-iota-satellite-award-petition.html) (AMSAT)

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WORLDBEAT - BELGIUM: COMMEMORATIING THE WW II RESISTANCE

The Radio club de Binche activated the special call sign ON4WAR on September 2nd . This, to pay tribute to the Belgian Resistance during WW II. As a part of the celebration. Vintage rigs such as Paraset were used to transmit in CW on the 7MHz band from the Refuge B40 in Waudrez. Some transmissions in SSB were also made in the 7 MHz band. A special QSL card will be issued for those who made contact during this event. More info is on the web at www.on7ry.be. (Southgate)

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WORLDBEAT - CANADA: BRITISH COLUMBIA SM VOTEING EXTENDED 10 DAYS

Radio Amateurs of Canada has announced that the deadline for receipt of returned ballots in the current British Columbia Section Manager election has been extended by ten days to 1200 EDST, September 30, 2007. This change has been made to address uncontrollable and unforeseen circumstances that caused a delay in the mailing of ballots to those members who are qualified to vote in this election. (RAC)

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WORLDBEAT - FRANCE: FRENCH HAMS SEEK 3.4 GHZ

France's TDF VHF and Microwave Group is submitting a request for a small ham radio allocation in the 3.4 GHz region. This is a parcel of spectrum from which they are currently banned.

In IARU Regions 2 and 3 which encompass Americas and the Pacific, 3400 to 3410 MHz is available for both the Amateur Radio and Amateur Satellite Services. And while many countries in ITU Region 1 have also allocated this segment to the Amateur Radio Service, it is currently not available for the Amateur Satellite Service nor is it available for terrestrial use by hams in France. (Southgate)

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WORLDBEAT - INDIA: INDIA'S HAMS CELEBRATE NATIONS 60 YEARS OF INDEPENDENCE

To celebrate 60 years of India's independence, the special call sign AT60MY is being used by members of the National Institute of Amateur Radio. Operation is from the city of Hyderabad. QSL Via VU2NRO (OPDX)

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WORLDBEAT - MALAYSIA: HAMS CELEBRATE NATIONS 50 YEARS OF INDEPENDENCE

Radio amateurs in Malaysia celebrated 50 years of that nations independence. This, with a nationwide field day on 30th August to 1st September.

Known as the Merdeka Field Day, the celebration saw 16 stations operating in cities and in jungle areas. All participating stations were issued with special 9M50M series callsigns. More information about this event is on-line at www.marts.my. (Southgate)

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DX

In D-X, DL5ME and DG3HWO will be active as SD7ME from Oland Island through September 11th . They will operate CW and SSB on 40, 30, 20 and 17 meters. QSL to SD7ME at his address on qrz.com.

Also, HA4XG will be active from Greece on the HF bands plus 6 and 2 meters through September 14th . QSL via home call, either direct or via the bureau.

And word that DD1MAT,will operate holiday style portable 9A from Dugi Otok until the 15th of September. QSL via his home call.

Lastly ZL1AMO, plans to operate holiday style from Lifuka Tonga until September 16th . He hopes to have his old A35EA call sign renewed for this operation. Please QSL as directed on the air.

(Above from variou DX news sources)

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THAT FINAL ITEM: MORE THANK YOU'S TO OUR LITENER - SUPPORTERS

And finally this week we have some more thank you's to those wonderful people whose financial support make these weekly newscasts possible. Here's our Support Fund Administrator, Andy Jatrema, N6TCQ:

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In the month of August 2006 we heard from Dick Tyler and the WA2EHL repeater of Burlington, NJ; regular contributor Benton Bonney, W4PE of Orlando; the Harrisburg, PA Radio Amateurs Club; monthly contributor Joseph Bartzi, Jr., KC8DKF of Columbus, OH; the DuPage, IL ARC, W9DUP and monthly San Jose contributors William Walters, WA2IBM, and Scott Hensley of the Area Communications Team

Via PayPal we heard from the Mississippi Coast Amateur Radio Assn & Stuart Cole, N5LBZ of Gulfport; Jack Luoma in Gilroy, CA; Sherry Johnson in Hager City, WI; Dennis Baumgart, AE2EE of Batavia, NY
Bob Ores, W9BO in Lowell, IN and Joan Friedman on the K9SHE repeater, Champaign, IL

We depend on you- our loyal listeners to keep Newsline on the air. Thanks for your help.

I'm Andy Jarema. N6TCQ

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We who produce these weekly newscast, thank you for your generosity and your encouragement to continue. More with Andy in future Amateur Radio Newsline reports. (Newsline Support Fund)

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NEWSCAST CLOSE

With thanks to Alan Labs, AMSAT, the ARRL, the CGC Communicator, CQ Magazine, the FCC, the Ohio Penn DX Bulletin, Radio Netherlands, Rain, the RSGB, the Southgate News and Australia's W-I-A News, that's all from the Amateur Radio Newsline™. Our e-mail address is newsline@arnewsline.org. More information is available at Amateur Radio Newsline's™ only official website located at www.arnewsline.org. You can also write to us or support us at Amateur Radio Newsline™, P.O. Box 660937, Arcadia, California 91066.

For now, with Bill Pasternak, WA6ITF, at the editors desk, I’m Jim Davis, W2JKD, saying 73 and we thank you for listening.

Amateur Radio Newsline™ is Copyright 2007. All rights reserved.

W9WHE

09-07-2007, 06:14 PM

"......the City of New York is still totally reliant on hams in time of crisis even thought that fact won't be realized until the time comes for them to respond"

"totally reliant on hams"?
What arrogance. I guess it has been a week or so since we had a #"only ham emcomm super-heros can save society" article. I guess we were overdue.

NYC has taken BIG steps:

1) Tagging PS cellphones with "priority" tags so that key personnell can get through in an overload condition;
2) Upgrading all PS communications equipment with digital, remotly reporgrammable and steerable radios (that hams can't interface with because it is APCO 25 and not D-star);
3) Buying portable "suitcase" repeaters that are quickly and easily deployable by NON-technical people;
4) Other non-public changes and system hardening.

But alas, unless/until they recognize that ONLY emcomm super-hero hams can save the world (and put hams in charge) NYC will "never" really be ready. Afterall, ONLY hams know anything and ONLY hams can do anything and ONLY hams can save society.
Uhhh Huh. Sure.

Articles like this only serve to widen the rift . They give the PS people reason to EXCLUDE you emcomm super-heros. NOBODY wants a cocky, overconfident, arrogant know-it-all in an emergency situation. If only you emcomm super-heros had a clue.

W9WHE

w6em

09-07-2007, 07:15 PM

Quote[/b] ] #Among the things Burkett discovered was that a battery back-up system for the New York fire department radio system was supposed to last 24 hours. It didn't.

Unless batteries are maintainable (not sealed, or valve-regulated types) such that electrolyte can be evaluated, they're chancy at best. #And, for those that are, actual time-discharge tests must be done to prove their energy capacity at specified discharge rates. #If not, well, you don't know what you have in A-Hr capability.

Quote[/b] ] #And the emergency 911 call system bogged down after a 2006 power failure. #Priority callers had to wait up to 20 minutes to get a response.

Not surprising, its a shared system. #Overloaded by users.

Quote[/b] ]Interoperability with adjoining communities also remains a problem. #A quoted report from WCBS news said that even though New York City has an 800 MHz radio system, the current approach for providing communications between the city and its neighboring counties remains the telephone.

Now, this is interesting. #Despite the FCC (and Motorola and M/A Comm) jumping up and down about Interoperability via 700MHz and such, they remain an island among themselves.

As to Jonathan's claims about agility, that's true only for personalities and groups among a given set of frequencies assigned to a given trunked system. #Oh, but maybe mobiles have room for a hundred pre-programmed frequencies and zillions of personalities.

Too #many combinations. #Also, on loss of the trunking controller and all trunked sites in soft-fail mode, units within a zone can talk to each other. #But, not outside. #Suitcase repeaters? #As in powered by what? #And, without a pneumatic multi-section pumped up mast, pretty hard to get much or a signal out as well. #And, how do the suitcase repeaters all link back to a trunker-dunker control point if it isn't within line-of-sight?

Time for consideration of something simple and reserved solely for interoperability (not 5 VHF channels used routinely by licensees and coined emergency interoperability channels, Jonathan). #Time to put those (export-only, non-type-accepted) GP-68s and JT-1000s on a few new frequencies between 148 and 150.

And, without digital mumbo-jumbo of whatever type, so that agencies, the military, Coast Guard and hams can interoperate.

N2RJ

09-07-2007, 08:37 PM

This is going to be entertaining.

I'll be keeping count of how many people in this thread lived and/or worked in NYC. #So far, it's just me. #

But keep it up guys, you are if anything entertaining.

I will offer this though - NYC provides some unique challenges - it is heavily overpopulated, and relies on old (ancient) infrastructure, as well as a civil service that is a complete mess (ask my xyl, she works in the NYC civil service.)

All of these help make any disaster a huge mess.

AC5WO

09-07-2007, 08:39 PM

I thought that this section of the 9/11 Commission report which covers what happened with radio communication at the WTC complex was interesting.
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/pdf/sec9.pdf

The overall trend I see is that communications systems didn't fail so much as they were overloaded or used incorrectly. In my opinion NYC needs to focus on training on how to work around emergency communications problems, not on purchasing new communications hardware. It's a people problem, not a technology problem.

Regarding interoperability between different cities, Motorola and M/A-COM seem to be more part of the problem, not part of the solution. Both manufacturers prefer to lock cities into their type of proprietary equipment, making interoperability more difficult.

N2RJ

09-07-2007, 08:43 PM

Quote[/b] (AC5WO @ Sep. 07 2007,15:39)]In my opinion NYC needs to focus on training on how to work around emergency communications failures, not on purchasing new communications hardware. #It's a people problem, not a technology problem.
You have half of it right. NYC needs to get rid of the extreme bureaucracy in the NYC civil service first - all sorts of arcane rules that prevent people from doing their jobs.

They could buy all of the equipment they want, it will solve nothing.

W9WHE

09-07-2007, 09:35 PM

"As to Jonathan's claims about agility, that's true only for personalities and groups among a given set of frequencies assigned to a given trunked system. #Oh, but maybe mobiles have room for a hundred pre-programmed frequencies and zillions of personalities"

NOW THERE YOU GO AGAIN, LEE.
I THOUGHT YOU SAID YOU LEARNED YOUR LESSON ABOUT ASSUMING FACTS!

FIRST: An XTS5000 portable can have 850 seperate "personalities". EACH personality can be a different frequerncy, or the same frequency in a different pl/dpl/mode/mdc/id. etc and/or ANY COMBINATION. That's 850 different CHANNELS! Even in NYC, 850 is MORE then enough.

SECOND: In an emergency, police/fire/ems are authorized to use any frequency assigned to the public service range. So they can programm in advance, then use when needed.

W9WHE
Pushing back the frontiers of ignorance.

w6em

09-07-2007, 09:57 PM

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Sep. 06 2007,15:35)]"As to Jonathan's claims about agility, that's true only for personalities and groups among a given set of frequencies assigned to a given trunked system. #Oh, but maybe mobiles have room for a hundred pre-programmed frequencies and zillions of personalities"

NOW THERE YOU GO AGAIN, LEE.
I THOUGHT YOU SAID YOU LEARNED YOUR LESSON ABOUT ASSUMING FACTS!

FIRST: An XTS5000 portable can have 850 seperate "personalities". EACH personality can be a different frequerncy, or the same frequency in a different pl/dpl/mode/mdc/id. etc and/or ANY COMBINATION. That's 850 different CHANNELS! #Even in NYC, 850 is MORE then enough.

SECOND: In an emergency, police/fire/ems are authorized to use any frequency assigned to the public service range. So they can programm in advance, then use when needed.

W9WHE
Pushing back the frontiers of ignorance.
Again, whether its 150 channels on 1500 channels, Jonathan, YOU continue to push clandestine, esoteric, self-defeating trunked gear for crises. #Simplicity is the key, along with training, as another poster notes. #Besides, if the controller channel can't be heard by the XTS5000, its a nice doorstop.

Trunked gear is infrastructure dependent, Jonathan. #Infrastructure should not be relied upon in a true crisis. #Two or three levels of redundancy, Jonathan, including emergency power redundancy. #WTC 7 had some pretty firm gear and the building went down in flames because the in-ground tanks full of thousands of gallons of Diesel were pumped way up and out into the structure, thanks to no override for generator daytank failure or fuel stand pipe breakage or damage. #As long as one of the generators operated, the basement fuel pumps operated. feeding the inferno.

Carpetbagger radio gear just won't do it for the trunker crowd. #They could shout about as far as something like that would provide coverage.

Even satellite trucks would have a hard time in a good part of NYC due to the tall structures.

Get yourself a good keyboard-frequency-entry conventional VHF Batwing radio and get ready, Jonathan. #Of course, with 850 channels, you might be able to program sufficient 12.5kHz splits to cover quite a lot of spectrum. #Simplex, of course.

NA2P

09-08-2007, 02:08 AM

If you could only tune in to listen to the ARES/RACES nets of NYC/LI area. It's a joke. 2 watt ham shack on a belt guys.

kf4vgx

09-08-2007, 03:28 AM

Better to relay anything that passes traffic .

n1dvj

09-08-2007, 12:37 PM

Quote[/b] (AC5WO @ Sep. 07 2007,13:39)]The overall trend I see is that communications systems didn't fail so much as they were overloaded or used incorrectly. #In my opinion NYC needs to focus on training on how to work around emergency communications problems, not on purchasing new communications hardware. #It's a people problem, not a technology problem.
Boy is that right! And HAMs are going to solve it how?

By having traffic nets every night on a repeater? With NO practice that I've ever heard of simplex. I can just see their indignation when they get kicked off a repeater during an emergency. And then their entire infrastructure falls apart because of NO training in that environment.

Or the storm watch people. OK, they try, and they actually ARE more trained than others. But when I hear exchanges that the net control is almost PLEADING every other transmission for reports of damage or severe as in 1/4" or larger hail and some IDIOT LID has to break in to report light rain just started at his location. (I actually heard that one, and it was NOT a newbie that just had to break in)

Heck, even the social nets have issues. There's a local fun net here and the net control tries to get a quick check in and then pass it around. But there's always the idiots that during the checking do the 'This is...' and drop, then come back with their call. Only it doesn't stop there. They have to give greetings to net control, a few of the other checkins they've already heard, and even some quick quips about something that happened to somebody that's already checked in. A checkin that should take at most 10 to 15 seconds per operator and this '*' takes almost 2 minutes one time! (Should I mention he's not a newbie either? And respected? Well, not really, it's more polite deference.)

There's no excuse for not 'training' in the same environment you'll 'operate' in when things go in the toilet!

W5HLH

09-08-2007, 11:07 PM

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Sep. 07 2007,13:37)]This is going to be entertaining.

I'll be keeping count of how many people in this thread lived and/or worked in NYC. So far, it's just me.

But keep it up guys, you are if anything entertaining.

I will offer this though - NYC provides some unique challenges - it is heavily overpopulated, and relies on old (ancient) infrastructure, as well as a civil service that is a complete mess (ask my xyl, she works in the NYC civil service.)

All of these help make any disaster a huge mess.
Okay, ex-KR2H here. I lived at 77 Bleecker Street (Bleecker Court) and later a little uptown at 205 Third Avenue (Gramercy Park Towers) when I got married.

You are dead on the money when you say NYC's problems with emergency communications and system interoperability have much more to do with human factors (mainly the dueling fiefdoms and duchies of NYC government) and NYC's outdated infrastructure than they do with actual technical issues.

We got smart and moved to San Diego in 1987. You need to get smart too. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

N2RJ

09-09-2007, 12:17 PM

Quote[/b] (W5HLH @ Sep. 08 2007,18:07)]Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Sep. 07 2007,13:37)]This is going to be entertaining.

I'll be keeping count of how many people in this thread lived and/or worked in NYC. #So far, it's just me. #

But keep it up guys, you are if anything entertaining.

I will offer this though - NYC provides some unique challenges - it is heavily overpopulated, and relies on old (ancient) infrastructure, as well as a civil service that is a complete mess (ask my xyl, she works in the NYC civil service.)

All of these help make any disaster a huge mess.
Okay, ex-KR2H here. I lived at 77 Bleecker Street (Bleecker Court) and later a little uptown at 205 Third Avenue (Gramercy Park Towers) when I got married.

You are dead on the money when you say NYC's problems with emergency communications and system interoperability have much more to do with human factors (mainly the dueling fiefdoms and duchies of NYC government) and NYC's outdated infrastructure than they do with actual technical issues.

We got smart and moved to San Diego in 1987. You need to get smart too. # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I live in NJ now. Overtaxed and corrupt, but much better than NYC.

AC5WO

09-09-2007, 01:43 PM

Quote[/b] (n1dvj @ Sep. 08 2007,05:37)]Quote[/b] (AC5WO @ Sep. 07 2007,13:39)]The overall trend I see is that communications systems didn't fail so much as they were overloaded or used incorrectly. In my opinion NYC needs to focus on training on how to work around emergency communications problems, not on purchasing new communications hardware. It's a people problem, not a technology problem.
Boy is that right! And HAMs are going to solve it how?

By having traffic nets every night on a repeater? With NO practice that I've ever heard of simplex...

There's no excuse for not 'training' in the same environment you'll 'operate' in when things go in the toilet!
Hams can't solve NYC civil service problems and we're generally not first responders in an emergency. We're a widely distributed pool of potential volunteers who can help provide backup communications. We can take a few steps to help make amateur radio a more valuable resource in our own communities.

First, get on the air. Talk to other local hams on a regular basis. Make sure your equipment works by actually using it. Bonus points for joining a local ham club.

Second, be prepared to fix problems. Think of scene in the movie Apollo 13 where NASA engineers make an adapter so command module carbon dioxide scrubbers can be used in the lunar module. Keep a "junk box" of parts and at least get practice building easy stuff like cables and wire antennas.

Third, prepare at least a little bit for disasters. Keep the car fuel tank at least half full. Have a couple days supply of food and water on hand. Getting first aid and CPR training would be a plus.

w6em

09-09-2007, 05:13 PM

Quote[/b] (AC5WO @ Sep. 08 2007,07:43)]Second, be prepared to fix problems. #Think of scene in the movie Apollo 13 where NASA engineers make an adapter so command module carbon dioxide scrubbers can be used in the lunar module. #Keep a "junk box" of parts and at least get practice building easy stuff like cables and wire antennas.
Great advice. Have things like multiple sets of cigarette lighter plug to various common power connectors like Anderson Power Poles ™, Molex two conductor, polarized females, and sets of cables from those to your gear and maybe common others as well. Don't forget fuses, in case of the inevitable. Both automotive types and for what you use in fuse holders. And, one with just significant alligator clamps to connect directly to a number of different types of batteries. And, tape to hold things in place and make it safe.

Coax adapters, coax and magmount antennas/bases. Don't forget those. You may not end up in your car/vehicle. Or, in a vehicle at all. Something like a broomstick ground-plane made from an SO239 and coat hanger wire, if nothing else.

I won't repeat what was already said, but, add to those. For instance, have some cash on hand in lots of small denominations. ATM machines don't work when the power's out. Also, prescription medicines. And, water that is safe to drink.

ab0wr

09-10-2007, 12:43 AM

Quote[/b] ]Unless batteries are maintainable (not sealed, or valve-regulated types) such that electrolyte can be evaluated, they're chancy at best. And, for those that are, actual time-discharge tests must be done to prove their energy capacity at specified discharge rates. If not, well, you don't know what you have in A-Hr capability.

It is unbelievable to me that there are still emergency organizations out there who do not know how to implement maintenance routines - daily, weekly, monthly, and annual.

Do firefighters just wait till the batteries in their fire trucks go bad and the truck won't start till they do maintenance on the battery?

If the battery in the fire trucks gets regular maintenance why wouldn't the communications organization arrange for the same thing for their infrastructure?

tim ab0wr

W9WHE

09-10-2007, 02:25 PM

W6EM INCORRECTLY writes:

"Besides, if the controller channel can't be heard by the XTS5000, its a nice doorstop"

WRONG AGAIN, LEE.

The XTS 1500, 2500, 3000 & 5000 (And just about every dual mode radio I know of) do NOT need the controller to be functional. Once again, you are OUT OF DATE AND OUT OF TOUCH. Any of those radios on a trunked system can be changed to a pre-designated channel (i.e. #1) and operated in any of: analog simplex, analog duplex, digital analog or digital duplex.

But hey, Lee, let's NOT let the FACTS get in the way of anti-modern technology rants. OK?

ONCE AGAIN, LEE, YOU REALLY SHOULD KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE YOU MAKE FOOLISH AND EMBARRASSING ASSUMPTIONS.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

w6em

09-10-2007, 04:48 PM

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Sep. 09 2007,08:25)]W6EM INCORRECTLY writes:

"Besides, if the controller channel can't be heard by the XTS5000, its a nice doorstop"

WRONG AGAIN, LEE.

The XTS 1500, 2500, 3000 & 5000 (And just about every dual mode radio I know of) do NOT need the controller to be functional. Once again, you are OUT OF DATE AND OUT OF TOUCH. Any of those radios on a trunked system can be changed to a pre-designated channel (i.e. #1) and operated in any of: analog simplex, analog duplex, digital analog or digital duplex.

But hey, Lee, let's NOT let the FACTS get in the way of anti-modern technology rants. OK?

ONCE AGAIN, LEE, YOU REALLY SHOULD KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE YOU MAKE FOOLISH AND EMBARRASSING ASSUMPTIONS.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
LMAO. #Well, Jonathan, off to the "rants" again? #Well, if all you can do with a low powered 700-900 MHz handheld is talk simplex, I guess that's something above a doorstop, but not far.

I was, of course, again thinking of your claim of everything wonderful. #If the controller channel is lost, it could use one of the fail soft local trunked zones to talk to another like unit within a mile or two, but not the dispatcher.

So, if having something not much better than an FRS toy in a crisis is OK, as that's what trunker-kerdunkers become when the control channel goes away, well I guess they fill the bill.

Yes, Factory Mutual knows about trunker non-instantaneous communications and at least used to require simplex mode, non-trunked communications for fire fighters in burning structures. #For good reason.

But, digressing to ambulance applications, a trunked system user can always wait until the dog catcher finishes instructions on how much dog food to pick up and bring back to the kennel. #No life or death emergencies requiring priority use of the radio.

Is XTS really a model designator? #Sounds more like the preamble to a Cadillac sedan.

73.

W9WHE

09-10-2007, 06:08 PM

The frequency with which some hams show their lack of knowlege and understanding never ceases to amaze me.

W6EM writes:

"....a trunked system user can always wait until the dog catcher finishes instructions on how much dog food to pick up and bring back to the kennel. #No life or death emergencies requiring priority use of the radio".

MORE NONSENSE.
Lee, most trunked systems allow for prioritization of users, i.e. cops over dog catchers. In a true emergency, there is ALSO a dedicated "emergency" button, which automatically "squawks" the individual officer ID and can also "swawk" the exact realitme GPS location of the officer in need of help, even if he is on the move! #If you were up to date, you would know this.

But hey, once again, let's not let FACTS get in the way of anti-technology rants.
Some hams want public safety systems to remain in the dark ages. On the other hand, many want to see communication systems (including ham radio) move into the 21st century and bring all the benifits.

W9WHE
Pushing back the frontiers of ignorance.

W9WHE

09-10-2007, 07:07 PM

W6EM also INCORRECTLY writes:

"But, digressing to ambulance applications, a trunked system user can always wait until the dog catcher finishes instructions on how much dog food to pick up........" No life or death emergencies requiring priority use of the radio"

Lee, Advanced Life Support (Paramedic) Ambulances DO NOT use trunked systems to communicate with the hospital. They use a dedicated FULL DUPLEX, UHF system (on 463/468 Mhz) called medical telemetry or they use FULL DUPLEX cellphones.

But once again, let's not let FACTS get in the way of your anti-technology rants.

W9WHE
Pushing back the frontiers of ignorance.

w6em

09-10-2007, 08:17 PM

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Sep. 09 2007,13:07)]W6EM also INCORRECTLY writes:

"But, digressing to ambulance applications, a trunked system user can always wait until the dog catcher finishes instructions on how much dog food to pick up........" No life or death emergencies requiring priority use of the radio"

Lee, Advanced Life Support (Paramedic) Ambulances DO NOT use trunked systems to communicate with the hospital. They use a dedicated FULL DUPLEX, UHF system (on 463/468 Mhz) called medical telemetry or they use FULL DUPLEX cellphones.

But once again, let's not let FACTS get in the way of your anti-technology rants.

W9WHE
Pushing back the frontiers of ignorance.
Gee, Jonathan, I'm amazed you picked up on that. #You mean that (perhaps) the reason paramedic data and communications is full duplex just might be that in a true life and death emergency, being "bonked" off by some beat cop bumping their "emergency" button or just having to wait for the next available channel - moments to minutes - might just cost someone their life?

As to bells and whistles like APRS, you know, don't you, that all cell phones sold since about 2002 have GPS encoding built in.

No, Jonathan, I may be old, but, I am informed about trunkers.

Loss of the control channel AT BEST will result in all trunked "cell" sites becoming low-level, low-power conventional repeaters with ranges of a couple of miles. #No central dispatch or contact across the system with anyone outside that fail-soft cell.

Lets get back on track. #NYC is all packed up and stuffed in a trunk - dilema. #Sold down the path of trunked over conventional. #And, several folks, not me, have described it to still be a cumbersome, limited system. #You would think someone would have thought "outside the bun" by now.
After all, you can still have that two-bit, quasi-encryption via APCO-25 on a robust, overlapping/voting receiver equipped conventional repeater system.

As to the full-duplex cell phones, I guess you don't mean Nextel. Those are non-full-duplex TRUNKED radios. The beaps and bonks I hear from time to time are really annoying.

Ciao.

W9WHE

09-10-2007, 08:36 PM

W6EM writes:

"You mean that (perhaps) the reason paramedic data and communications is full duplex just might be that in a true life and death emergency, being "bonked" off by some beat cop bumping their "emergency" button or just having to wait for the next available channel ...."

Medical telemetry has an EXCLUSIVE allocation and was set up LONG BEFORE trunking was ever dreamed of. Medical telemetry is full duplex so that the hospital can give orders WHILE the paramedics are sending an EKG strip. So far as I know, there is no such thing as a FULL DUPLEX trunking system. So, until a FULL DUPLEX trunking system is invented, it won't work for paramedic medical telemetry.

Lee, I wish you would STOP making things up as you go.
Your FALSE anti-technology rants may only serve to MIS-inform people who are interested in the FACTS.

W6EM also writes:

"NYC is all packed up and stuffed in a trunk - dilema. #Sold down the path of trunked over conventional".

Yes Lee, EVERYBODY in NY is just plain stupid.
If only they had put YOU in charge, they would be soooo much better off, right? #Pity they are too dumb to see just how knowlegeable you are about communications systems. All they would need to do is read your insightful posts right here and they would know how knowlegeable you really are.

W9WHE
Pushing back the frontiers of ignorance.

w6em

09-10-2007, 09:48 PM

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Sep. 09 2007,14:36)]W6EM writes:

"You mean that (perhaps) the reason paramedic data and communications is full duplex just might be that in a true life and death emergency, being "bonked" off by some beat cop bumping their "emergency" button or just having to wait for the next available channel ...."

NO LEE, ONCE AGAIN, YOU ARE WRONG.

Medical telemetry has an EXCLUSIVE allocation and was set up LONG BEFORE trunking was ever dreamed of. Medical telemetry is full duplex so that the hospital can give orders WHILE the paramedics are sending an EKG strip. So far as I know, there is no such thing as a FULL DUPLEX trunking system. So, until a FULL DUPLEX trunking system is invented, it won't work for paramedic medical telemetry.

W6EM also writes:

"NYC is all packed up and stuffed in a trunk - dilema. #Sold down the path of trunked over conventional".

Yes Lee, EVERYBODY in NY is just stupid.
If only they would put YOU in charge, they would be soooo much better off, right? #Pity they are too dumb to see just how knowlegeable you are about communications systems. All they would need to do is read your insightful posts right here and they would immeadiately recognize how knowlegeable you really are.

SO, ONCE AGAIN, LEE, YOU ARE UNINFORMED ABOUT MATTERS ON WHICH YOU POST.

But hey, let's not let FACTS get in the way of your anti-technology rants.

W9WHE
Pushing back the frontiers of ignorance.
Jonathan, there you go again. #Ranting and raving.

First off, by concept, trunking is designed like a phone crossbar switch with fewer lines, of course, than connected sets. #The idea being to try to use as many of the lines as needed at any instant. #And, if all lines are in use, well, you have to wait. #Ever hear a "fast-busy" tone, meaning no lines available even though you had dial tone? #Trunking is a store and forward concept. #Take your transmission, store it, if necessary, and wait for a channel to become available to its destination and similarly, back to you. #Not difficult to understand at all that full duplex and trunking are mutually exclusive concepts.

That's why you have the DELAYS, Jonathan, in a trunked system. #And, obviously, the same with Nextel "phones." #
When you understand the potential that trunked systems have to delay life-critical information, you understand what a mis-applied concept it is for true life-safety applications. #And why, as you have exemplified, that paramedic-hospital communications aren't trunked. #They could be, but, the consequences could be disastrous. #Trunking controllers and capable radios exist for 450-470MHz spectrum.

Maybe the beat cop can live with the delay to bounce the dog catcher, the street sweeper and the storm drain maintenance crew to get a channel freed-up. #But, obviously, critical paramedic communications can't.

Its really not at all puzzling why the Dallas, TX PD junked their trunked system and went back to a UHF multi-repeater/voting system. #Too many holes in the cheese, Jonathan.

73.

n7wr

09-11-2007, 03:29 AM

As several recent professional studies have shown, the problem in cities like New York is not an equipment or system problem it is a human problem. DHS/FEMA has spent billions on radio interoperability since 9/11/01. A key to interoperability however is the willingness of cops (and I'm a retired cop) to talk to fire fighters, EMS etc -- and of course the reverse. In NYC (and elsewhere)that is a problem due to decades of empire building, union rules, power politics, etc. Amateur radio Emcomm is not going to fix that. Until elected officials lay down the law and tell all public safety responders that failure (make that refusal) to communicate will result in discipline you won't see the sort of interoperability that their radio systems are well-designed to support.

w6em

09-11-2007, 12:03 PM

Quote[/b] (n7wr @ Sep. 09 2007,21:29)]#DHS/FEMA has spent billions on radio interoperability since 9/11/01. #
Part of those Billions are grants/gifts to junk perfectly good, robust conventional systems and purchase trunked 700MHz equipment so all can be on the same spectrum.

Did the professional studies you mention discuss the single point failure consequences of combining multiple organizations across cities, counties and even states onto trunked systems?
How dependency on IP for interconnecting systems (Katrina) was also a pitfall since telco infrastructure went down?
Was New Orleans trunked system failure used as an example? #Was the Florida Highway Patrol system failure (one half the state reportedly without radio communication for several days) used as an example? #Both were trunking controller failures. Or, a smaller scale version with the Nevada Highway Patrol?

Lastly, professional means "in the business." #Were the folks who conducted these studies affiliated with radio equipment suppliers? #Were all forms of communication infrastructure compared as to their vulnerabilities/robustness, not just in spectrum efficiency/loading and the convenience of talking routinely across organizations?

Forget all of the above. #Why is it that almost every officer I see in a vehicle with a trunked system carries a cell phone? #I'm not privy to inside talk, but, one rumor has it that the practice has a lot to do with "another channel" when the radio doesn't work.

Congress decided to force the Interoperability solution as a migration to part of the old UHF TV spectrum, along with those Billions you speak of. #We've had far too many examples of what happens when government thinks it knows best without objective input, besides that from radio manufacturers standing to capture most of those Billions. #Add the 700MHz Interoperability solution to that as well.

73.

n2obm

09-11-2007, 02:56 PM

JONATHAN, LEE and others concerned,

please note a partial list of disclaimers at the end....

'RADIO Babylon' and it's little brother 'DIGITAL Babylon' in NYC? And 'first responder agencies' (anywhere) having to use POTS to call adjacent entities...say it isn't so!

(I have a NY State Trooper on my Transition Team; many, sad and scary stories about communication issues; NY is doomed!)

In my opinion, if it HAS to be digital/trunked...T.E.T.R.A.
I don't care who makes it…SEPURA, MOTOROLA or xxxx....

(This is where all the folks at GE, EF Johnson, and xxxx cringe and get upset, call Representatives and lawmakers... as do all of the IP (intellectual property) protectionist that have holdings in other various digital/RoIP formats...and yes, it is pretty much a EU ‘thing’.)

BUT I KNOW THIS; it works very well here Baghdad.

My opinion: I feel I am currently in a ‘relevant’ test bed for a communication(s) packages.
Plagued with power outages, voltage spikes/brownouts, inadequate or nonexistent back-up battery banks, dead air (urban and rural radio dead zones), antennae/cable damage (from stray bullets to ??abuse; TO INCLUDE buildings used for antennae platforms just falling over), SEARING heat, high winds, sand, dust, cold (yes, COLD) and seemingly the worst.... untrained end users.

I help maintain a communications package that is right out of the pages of the International Red Cross Communication book. CODAN and BARRETT H.F. with ALE, Motorola UHF mobiles, repeaters and HTs. *AUGMENTED* by SEPURA TETRA...'Push-to-talk HTs', mobiles (configured as repeaters too) and gateways for RoIP (connected to a government WAN; unconfirmed).

I will also mention, but meant for another forum, TETRA offers ‘man down’, E2E encryption and GPS tracking options.

Google TETRA websites and look at some of the links. Example:

http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-E.218-200405-I/E

the answer is out there...if not single channel analog FM, is it TETRA? A fusion of both?
TETRA Summary: A dynamic, almost self-healing system that can relay traffic from 'on-site’ units through other handhelds and/or mobiles back to a gateway that is connected to undamaged infrastructure.

BOTTOM LINE: SOMEBODY needs to set a STANDARD (public service, Amateur and Emcomm) and execute!

I digress...it is my experience that 'KISS' should be THE RULE for AMATEUR Emcomm (implied analog non-trunked/ non-encrypted FM). High cost, marginal signal to noise ratio, add political/industry QRM (and Murphy)...most digital modes are not ‘friendly’.

Some disclaimers:
MURPHY IS A S.O.B.!
'Every component of a system or appliance is a possible point of failure, adds cost, weight and/or volume.'
'Every human has an onboard signal processor, if they choose to use it.'
Sometimes there is only a very thin, fine line (but lots of $s) between Amateur and Professional.
Money, Pride, Politics…as usual, aggravates this problem.
“The obvious problem here is, some Politicians think they are Generals, and some Generals think they are Politicians.”, 1LT (name withheld), FOB Rustamiyah, Baghdad, Iraq. (Sorry, had to sneak it in!)

n7wr

09-11-2007, 03:43 PM

First of all, by way of background, I have spent 40 years in public safety the last 4 of which has been as director of a 9-1-1 Dispatch Center which dispatches for 28 local, county, state and federal agencies. We maintain an extensive (conventional but with P-25 digital capability) narrowband VHF radio system which covers a 3900 sq mile rural and rugged terrain county.

The studies I refer to which point to the human element being more of a problem with interoperability than equipment/system problems were not conducted by equpiment manufacturers/suppliers but by independant evaluators familiar with public safety communications.

I agree with W6EM that trunking and/or the forced migration to 700 megs can be problems in and of themselves though properly designed and applied they are not necessarily guaranteed failures. One of the problems I see, however, is that "government" (read Congress/FCC Bureaucrats with little technical knowledge) have adopted a digital is wonderful, analog sucks mentality. As a result they are forcing new technology into areas where it simply does not work--at least not in an economically viable way.

I'll use my state as an example. Our lawmakers embarked on a state-wide 700 meg campaign. No need for it! #1. Those of us in the rural NE part of the state will never have a need to talk to the populated west side. #2. To cover (with 85% coverage) our rugged rural county with 700 megs would (according to studies) require a minimum of 36 repeater sites. They don't exist. We cover 97% of our county with 10 VHF repeater sites. We were finally able to convince the state to leave the east side alone (we all have new DHS financed narrowband VHF systems anyhow). If talking to us from the west side is so darned important they can put interop black boxes on their 700 meg boondoggle system but day to day leave us alone.

Trunked, digital systems have their place but that place is not everyplace...and in a disaster they better be target hardened with a means to "talk around" when the infrastructure on which they are based crashes.

W5HLH

09-11-2007, 06:55 PM

Quote[/b] (n7wr @ Sep. 11 2007,08:43)]One of the problems I see, however, is that "government" (read Congress/FCC Bureaucrats with little technical knowledge) have adopted a digital is wonderful, analog sucks mentality. #As a result they are forcing new technology into areas where it simply does not work--at least not in an economically viable way.
Bingo! Thanks to N2OBM and N7WR for their real-world observations.

It's not just the government overselling digital communications. On QRZ.com have WA6ITF thrilling us with visions of HF real-time video through digital magic, and the domestic broadcasting industry is determined to make the AM radio band digital through IBOC/HD as are shortwave broadcasters through DRM.

But anyone who has actually played around with digital radio soon realizes an unpleasant truth: digital is very fragile; digital communication is all or nothing. If the path isn't perfect, if the signal isn't the equivalent of "full quieting," digital grinds to a halt. (This is why the notion of HF digital communications is really daft; DRM tests by shortwave broadcasters have been spectacular flops, yet some broadcasters are hellbent on persisting. . . #.)

Don't get me wrong; digital has some real advantages over analog as long as you have a reliable path and plenty of RF bandwidth to burn. But you don't want to rely on digital in marginal situations or emergencies; a weak analog signal can still be copied in cases where a digital signal is completely useless. I fear a lot of money and effort is going to be expended on digital communications systems that will fail miserably in a future natural or man-made catastrophe. Like thoroughbred horses, digital systems depend on some delicate, failure-prone underpinnings.

w6em

09-11-2007, 10:23 PM

Thank you W5HLH, N7WR and N2OBM for your rational, experience-based commentary. I was beginning to think I had entered the Twilight Zone.

KE4IKY

09-12-2007, 02:18 PM

Quote[/b] ]But anyone who has actually played around with digital radio soon realizes an unpleasant truth: digital is very fragile; digital communication is all or nothing. If the path isn't perfect, if the signal isn't the equivalent of "full quieting," digital grinds to a halt. (This is why the notion of HF digital communications is really daft; DRM tests by shortwave broadcasters have been spectacular flops, yet some broadcasters are hellbent on persisting. . . #.)

You mean like JT65 and the other digital modes used for EME and troposcatter?

Please don't blame "digital" in general for some system designs that aren't well thought out.

My two cents, and it's only two cents, is that it's cheaper and easier to buy equipment than train people. "Fighting city hall" or "fighting market momentum" isn't worth it on this subject. If you go with the momentum you may be able to get systems that work, if it's just an analog vs digital complaint fest, then inputs will be discarded (except in discussions like these).

Has anyone come up with actual performance requirements for thier system before they went with it?

Does it meet thier performance requirements as they laid them out?

These things have to be very well defined before anything happens or you can end up with almost anything, and it's no ones fault but the planners.

Thats the stage that some hams may be best at helping with, equipment selection for implementation is usually a political-buisiness decission, and I doubt that hams will ever be welcome there.

w6em

09-12-2007, 03:39 PM

Quote[/b] (KE4IKY @ Sep. 11 2007,08:18)]These things have to be very well defined before anything happens or you can end up with almost anything, and it's no ones fault but the planners.
I would bet that most local and state government folks don't know about single-point failure vulnerabilities, or are they prepared to address them. Or, how to go about determining what they are.

They're so overwhelmed with political pressure to "have all the bells and whistles" that failure modes and effects aren't considered up front. Easy marks for the slick salesmen.
And, there's the "free DHS money" from Washington.

Saving 3 cents on each ignition switch in Ford vehicles a few years back ended up costing Ford many millions in recalls and claims for vehicle fires. They now use Failure Mode Effects Analyses as part and parcel to their operations.

If FMEAs were done on trunked systems, I'd venture a guess that about 95% of law enforcement and fire agencies wouldn't adopt them, based on adequate exploration of the effects of various failures. Especially controller-related ones. Of course, just my speculation.

KE4IKY

09-12-2007, 08:34 PM

In an organization I was with a long time ago, there was between 1 and 3 people assigned to just take care of communications plans and programs (for 3600 people at most). Sometimes they would be driving by a new building and check their records and find that no one had thought about putting phones in the building. Others just assume they would appear. #So someone would have to go hunt down whoever the building was going to be for and sit them down and figure out what their communications requirements were. #

The way I see it is that NYC probably needs one of their own guys, not a contractor and not someone biased for either analog or digital systems, to be the guy who makes the fireman and police and city services sit down (repeatedly) and work out their communications needs for a radio system, without guessing. He wouldn't be the guy to implement it, or decide on equipment or anything, just figure out and write the systems requirements.

THEN you can talk to engineers, (who hopefully also don't work for manufacturers) and figure out the best way to make a system work.

This is just a guess, but I would think that the radio makers and contractors would prefer to have a solid plan that they just need to implement, than look bad and risk not getting further business from people that think they are incompetent.

In software engineering this kind of thing happens all of the time, people ask for something, when you give them exactly what they asked for, they remember they actually needed some other things also, forcing an entire rewrite of the program.

It probably happens in other occupations as well. (Feature creep)

Frankly I think that’s also how people tend to pray.

WA5BEN

09-13-2007, 12:40 AM

Quote[/b] (n2obm @ Sep. 11 2007,07:56)]In my opinion, if it HAS to be digital/trunked...T.E.T.R.A.
I don't care who makes it…SEPURA, MOTOROLA or xxxx....

(This is where all the folks at GE, EF Johnson, and xxxx cringe and get upset, call Representatives and lawmakers... as do all of the IP (intellectual property) protectionist that have holdings in other various digital/RoIP formats...and yes, it is pretty much a EU ‘thing’.)

BUT I KNOW THIS; it works very well here Baghdad.

My opinion: I feel I am currently in a ‘relevant’ test bed for a communication(s) packages.
Plagued with power outages, voltage spikes/brownouts, inadequate or nonexistent back-up battery banks, dead air (urban and rural radio dead zones), antennae/cable damage (from stray bullets to ??abuse; TO INCLUDE buildings used for antennae platforms just falling over), SEARING heat, high winds, sand, dust, cold (yes, COLD) and seemingly the worst.... untrained end users.

I help maintain a communications package that is right out of the pages of the International Red Cross Communication book. CODAN and BARRETT H.F. with ALE, Motorola UHF mobiles, repeaters and HTs. *AUGMENTED* by SEPURA TETRA...'Push-to-talk HTs', mobiles (configured as repeaters too) and gateways for RoIP (connected to a government WAN; unconfirmed).

I will also mention, but meant for another forum, TETRA offers ‘man down’, E2E encryption and GPS tracking options.
700/800 MHz trunked system is the LEAST reliable system possible. Why ?

Reliability: Absolutely EVERY trunked system has failed in EVERY disaster. (The trunked system in Louisiana was not restored for at least ten days.)

Loss of Command Control Communications and Situation/Intelligence Communication: When the systems fail, there is ZERO Command Control Communications in the "forward" direction (HQ to field), and ZERO Situation/Intelligence Communication in the "reverse" (field to HQ) direction.

Extremely short range: The "talk-around" is good for maybe a mile AT BEST CASE. In the "simple repeater" mode (which only RARELY works), there is ZERO communications between field and HQ. This places everyone at risk, and fails to support the units in the field.

Channel overload. There is no advantage to a trunked system when everyone wants to talk at the same time. In point of fact, the system overloads and PREVENTS communication. A well-designed Public Safety system allows the dispatcher to talk even when the field unit is talking -- and to completely block the field unit's audio from being re-transmitted. The trunked system does not support this in an effective manner. It also fails to address "back channel" communication, which is common. When all channels are blocked, there is no available channel for critical communications.

Multiple single points of failure: The system can be knocked out for some or all areas by single failures of: controller, microwave, tower, exciter, amplifier, receiver, antenna, or feedline. A single failure of the microwave, tower, exciter, amplifier, receiver, antenna, or feedline wipes out ALL CHANNELS for that site -- with ZERO capability to restore. a failure of the controller wipes out ALL CHANNELS of the SYSTEM.

MTTR: In all failures to date, the system down time has been measured in HOURS to DAYS.

And on, and on....

All police departments (including those who so unwisely went to trunking) in the Dallas area use the City of Dallas 460 MHz system when they need interoperability -- as when tracking a bank robber. The FBI, ATF, and DEA also join in on the Dallas channels. The trunking systems are NEVER used.

All fire departments in TX, OK, AR, NM, and LA use 153/154 MHz for interoperation between their departments and the various state and federal forestry and grasslands departments. The FD near Dallas (including those who so unwisely went to trunking) also use the 453/454 MHz City of Dallas frequencies for interoperation. Each city can dispatch a Dallas fire apparatus or ambulance, and Dallas can dispatch those of all other cities.

The multiple site, multiple channel, multiple redundancy City of Dallas system is a model for all critical communications systems. Absolutely NO single event -- including one that forces a move from the dispatch center -- can knock it out. Multiple voting receivers per channel work with redundant equipment. "Spare" and "Command" channels may be used as primary channels if a channel is blocked or fails in a blocking mode. There has NEVER been an outage on this system. MTTR is measured in moments, and MTBF is measured in years.

Oh.... The City of Dallas trunked system ? It's used by the garbage trucks and code enforcement. It failed the critical "safety of life" tests.

BTW:

We have used end-to-end digital encryption on conventional repeater systems for MANY YEARS.

Most PS radios have "man down" capability (including those from 10 years ago). That is used primarily by FD, and it is absolutely not wanted by PD, by the way.

GPS tracking in a vertically built metro area is, at best, difficult. The units cannot "see" two satellites at the same time much of the time, and calculated positions are off by tens of meters because of reflections at the times when you can get a "fix". At best, tracking in a small area like NYC would need to be on a "selected unit" basis to avoid screen clutter.

Frankly, the communications problem in Baghdad is small when compared to the problem in NYC after a major disaster. (FYI: This is said by a guy who spent a lot of time in Baghdad.) I don't need a lot of towers/sites to cover Baghdad. I need a BUNCH just to cover for Manhattan, and a BUNCH more for the Bronx, Brooklyn, JFK, La Guardia, ....

w6em

09-13-2007, 01:08 AM

Larry, thank you for sharing your experience with us.

Its too bad that Senator McCain, the "imaginator" behind the push to 700MHz UHF spectrum didn't hear from you. #If he had, maybe Wi-Max would have been there instead of the Interoperability Pipedream (really more like the Interoperability Pied Piper). #Of course, Arizona has a large /\/\ presence.

I read your Comments to the FCC's Katrina proceeding, and they reflect some of what you've shared. #Although, what you've written here is far better in that it has more comparatives in much greater detail.

People in the Department of Homeland Security need to hear what you've shared with us on this thread. #Who knows, it might just be listened to. #In fact, FYI, the guy to write to is Rear Admiral Jay Cohen, USN (Ret), UnderSecretary for Science and Technology, Department of Homeland Security, Washington, D.C. #20528.

73,

w6em

09-13-2007, 01:20 AM

Quote[/b] (WA5BEN @ Sep. 11 2007,18:40)]Multiple single points of failure: #The system can be knocked out for some or all areas by single failures of: #controller, microwave, tower, exciter, amplifier, receiver, antenna, or feedline. #A single failure of the microwave, tower, exciter, amplifier, receiver, antenna, or feedline wipes out ALL CHANNELS for that site -- with ZERO capability to restore. #a failure of the controller wipes out ALL CHANNELS of the SYSTEM. #

MTTR: #In all failures to date, the system down time has been measured in HOURS to DAYS.

And on, and on....
As part of the list, don't forget e-power to the controller, as was the case in New Orleans. #If e-power fails at the controller, or link, the controller's gone.

One of the commenters to the Katrina Committee Report cited the loss of the Florida Highway Patrol's trunked 800MHz system for several days. #Supposedly, half of the state had no radio coverage. #They all now carry cell phones, just in case it happens again. #Supposedly, it was a controller problem, but no additional information available. #And, to think they used to have what HPs in CA, TN and MO still have: #a firm, lo-band VHF system.

k5co

09-13-2007, 03:02 PM

Who the heck is the "Radio Club of America"? Have they always sucked-up to celebrities that have done nothing in real terms in ham radio?

w6em

09-13-2007, 08:13 PM

Quote[/b] (k5co @ Sep. 12 2007,09:02)]Who the heck is the "Radio Club of America"? Have they always sucked-up to celebrities that have done nothing in real terms in ham radio?
Why don't you Google the term and find out. Might surprise you.

Also, you might to go back to the RCA thread, this isn't about the RCA.

W9WHE

09-14-2007, 02:51 PM

Ok, OK, Ok.......

So the hundreds of RF engineers with Masters and Ph.Ds at Motorola, GE/Macom/Ericson and others, as well as the US Millitary, Federal Government, and Hundreds of municipal providers are all just plain STUPID, while a handful of weekend-warrior, know-it-all hams (some quite UNinformed) know everything and are smarter then everyone else.

Ok. I got it.
(And you wonder why PS people don't want hams around).

w6em

09-14-2007, 03:08 PM

Quote[/b] ]Ok, OK, Ok.......

So the hundreds of RF engineers with Masters and Ph.Ds at Motorola, GE/Macom/Ericson and others, "do what they're told," Jonathan.

Yes, they do what the sales and marketing executives tell them to: #"We want you to conceive of a cellular telephone-like radio system where cellular equipment can be used to create a similar, low-power cell concept system where the same frequencies can be reused across an area."

"Just think of the return (money) we can make by using our cell phone base equipment and designs to replace conventional radio repeater systems." #"They will have to have 5 to 10 times the number of base sites as their conventional systems now require, which, of course, will mean that many-fold more in new equipment sales."

"And, the marketing ploy is great: #Greater apparent capacity via reuse of the same frequencies and the ability to remotely steer users from one group, such as public works, over to fire or police and visa versa."

Of course, if all channels are busy, they won't be able to break in as on a conventional system, but they just will have to wait until the "bonk" disappears when they key up. #Nice feature.

W9WHE

09-14-2007, 04:30 PM

W6EM writes:

"Yes, they do what the sales and marketing executives tell them to"

WRONG.

Lee, as a former Product Manager with Hewlett Packard, I can tell you that you are, once again, dead WRONG.

Companies DO NOT invest MILLIONS on some hair-brained idea dreamed up by marketing guys over lunch. Concepts are devised in very close collaboration with the engineering. Millions are not spent until the project managers can assure (as in your future depends on it) top management that the project will not only work, but be profitable. Feasabillity studies are completed.

No CEO dedicates millions of dollars to a project unless/until he is convinced that the project will be successful. But hey, Lee knows more then everybody else, so everybody else must be wrong....

Come on Lee, tell us about your new product development expirence, will you?

W5HLH

09-14-2007, 04:40 PM

W9WHE

09-14-2007, 07:41 PM

Ok, Ok, Ok....so let's recap, shall we:

1) hams with no RF engineering training know more then they guys with the M.S.s and P.hDs;

2) If the millitary & PS would just listen to know-it-all hams, the world would be a safer place and communications systems would never fail;

3) digital/trunked systems (favored by PS) are ALL destined to fail and kill us all, while analog systems (managed by hams, of course) will never fail;

4) Big, bad, evil, greedy corporations devised digital/trunked systems to make money, full well knowing that analog systems are better; #

5) the REAL folly of the millitary and PS is that they refuse to put emcomm super-hero hams in charge of all communications and communications systems design.

I get it now. Thank you.
Hummm. You don't suppose that the technology of communications has surpassed the average "dumbed down" analog ham appliance operator ....and they are feeling that there is less and less chance that they can be viewed as "communications hero" now do you?
Naaahhhhhhh.

Do the millitary and corporations make errors...sure. Unlike the ham world, they are run by humans. But they have, at their disposal, the best and brightest minds and leading edge technology. What to hams have? 40 year old technology run by appliance operators.

FINALLY: Did Iridium bomb...sure did...BUT not because it did not work, but because it was OVERSOLD as working everywhere, when it would not work inside a building. But hey, Motorola is just a bunch of dummies. All they did was invent the cellphone. Pretty minor, eh? On the other hand, look at what hams have done....saved the world, er, ummm.....well claim to anyway.

W4CBJ

09-14-2007, 08:47 PM

From my limited experience in radio (since 1938) i would say that the problem is indeed the people. They want the latest bells and whistles, cannot or will not read the instruction manuals and are indeed untrainable. To depend on the Internet for interoperability is indeed sheer folly. I'm not trying to get into the fight but according to what I know about Lee W6EM, he is about the most professional, capable,cooperative and knowledgeable engineer that I have ever met. You can tell which side is losing an argument by their vitreol. 73 Joe W4CBJ

w6em

09-14-2007, 10:57 PM

Quote[/b] ]Ok, Ok, Ok....so let's recap, shall we:

Yes, let's do, Jonathan.

(It failed)
Quote[/b] ]...BUT not because it did not work, but because it was OVERSOLD as working everywhere....

Yes, many things, including the trunked radio concept, have been oversold (minus emphasis added. #barristerisms not necessary here).

Quote[/b] ]All they did was invent the cellphone. Pretty minor, eh?

Yes, an accomplishment. #In concept. #To apply telephone system queuing to RF gear. #Replace the twisted pair with twisted air. #(it even rhymes) #But, as we know, even it falls apart at higher elevations. #That is, when the handset is capable of hitting many cells simultaneously. #That's why, besides what the FAA may say, use of cell phones on board an aircraft is prohibited when in flight.

Yes, and most probably someone thought, gee, why not apply the same concept and sell it with the idea that radio users can appear to have many more channels than really exist, just like cell phones do. #By reusing them, by putting users in queue (and making them wait) and such.

Quote[/b] ] On the other hand, look at what hams have done....saved the world, er, ummm.....well claim to anyway.

I sure don't hear that from anyone. #I hear many willing to help, on a moment's notice, if their help is needed. #As in the aftermath of 9/11, Charlie, Katrina, and countless earthquakes and major fires.

A communication system planning process should be iterative, and include lots of possible failure scenarios. #Do these PS entities that you speak of, Jonathan, always consider the environment following failure of the trunking controller channel and how long it would take to restore effective communications? #If they don't, they aren't being realistic with their criteria for critical, public/life safety radio systems.

New Orleans was an expensive example. #Sadly, with a Motorola Vice President sitting on the Katrina Panel (to review and report on the lessons-learned) it is not surprising to see nothing on the analysis of the trunking system failure and the ramifications for similar-concept systems elsewhere.

Its funny, isn't it, how a bridge can collapse in Minnesota and have civil engineers scrambling to analyze and repair similar cantilever bridges across the nation. #Or, in the case of NASA's Columbia loss, a focused approach on shuttle heat shield tiles and their performance. # Yet, we haven't even had the root cause of the trunking system vulnerability publicized. To say nothing of what's really needed: #An FCC-mandated return to conventional repeaters (digital or analog). #Perhaps its due to those poor stakeholders possibly suffering huge, Iridium-scale losses.

So, now the "dummed down" ham community knows just how much more it will be needed in the future as the addition of trunked radio systems will increase the occurrence of massive public safety radio failures. #And, sadly, the consequences of those failures may be lives lost before amateur radio can repair the bridge.

WA5BEN

09-14-2007, 11:47 PM

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Sep. 14 2007,07:51)]Ok, OK, Ok.......

So the hundreds of RF engineers with Masters and Ph.Ds at Motorola, GE/Macom/Ericson and others, as well as the US Millitary, Federal Government, and Hundreds of municipal providers are all just plain STUPID, while a handful of weekend-warrior, know-it-all hams (some quite UNinformed) know everything and are smarter then everyone else.

Ok. I got it.
(And you wonder why PS people don't want hams around).
1. It's called MARKETING. (How else could one sell what is essentially a modified cellular telephone for $3000.00 ?)

2. Government decisions are made by appointed bureaucrats who usually have ZERO technical knowledge, and are guided more by who proposes and/or endorses something than anything else. (Case in point: BPL)

System "PERFORMANCE" is established by a MARKETING definition -- NOT by proven engineering.

Regarding Public Safety

3. I spoke on NVIS and EMCOMM to two ham clubs this week. Public Safety was represented at both. The city EM spoke to the club and laid out his plan for the coming year at the one last night.

4. The Denton County, Texas PODS plan is now the STANDARD for the state and nation for management of mass immunizations. Amateur radio is the PRIMARY communication in that plan. (The reason is that their former primary system failed in full-scale actual deployment tests, and amateur radio had to step in and take over.) Those tests involved CDC, FEMA, FBI, helicopters, ambulances, police at all levels, county government, and several city governments.

5. Every city has the amateur radio (RACES/ARES) position as a REQUIRED position when it's EOC is active. Most require their EM to hold or obtain a ham license.

6. Latest trunking failure: City of Gainesville, Texas. During the widespread flood, the 800 MHz system went down. Police reported inability to communicate more than 2 blocks. Amateur radio was pressed into service for Public Safety.

7. We are a PART of the Public Safety community -- not outsiders. We are well trained, credentialed by our cities and counties (usually under the FD, sometimes under the PD), and well prepared to work WITH police and fire.

8. We are called out by our cities and counties when disaster threatens -- and when it strikes. Every level of law enforcement knows to flag us down if their communications fail -- and they have rather frequently done so. (Case in point: A Lancaster, TX officer flagged me down to get an ambulance after the tornado struck that city. I called on the RACES frequency, and the Dallas EOC dispatched an ambulance within 30 seconds.) We have also been called out when the trunked systems failed, when 911 phone lines were cut, and to watch over damaged areas after tornados. In all cases, EVERY law enforcement officer (local, state, and federal) stopped by to PERSONALLY thank us.

9. I have authored two articles that have been serialized in Public Safety Communications magazine. One dealt SPECIFICALLY with Disaster Preparedness and EMCOMM -- and featured amateur radio in the recovery phase, along with the manners in which that the police radio operator (highly non-technical) could restore some communications IF PROPER PLANNING WAS DONE. Several state have based plans on that article.

If YOUR area Public Safety has an issue, YOU are the one who must work to change their perception. (I suspect there really is no issue, as I have never met a PS professional who did not welcome amateur radio assistance.)

WA5BEN

09-15-2007, 12:06 AM

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Sep. 14 2007,12:41)]Ok, Ok, Ok....so let's recap, shall we:

1) hams with no RF engineering training know more then they guys with the M.S.s and P.hDs
Let's see....

Third Class Radiotelephone at age 14
Amateur Novice
Amateur Technician
Second Class Rediotelephone
Amateur General
First Class Radiotelephone
Amateur Advanced

Designed and Engineered the first minicam system / editing system to go on the air West of the Mississippi -- possibly the first in the US. Installed in 35 TV stations, and trained their crews.

Elected to Active Grade in Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (This grade casts votes on standards for TV cameras, radio broadcast, TV broadcast, recording media, and film.)

Created analog and digital crypto product concepts (1 of 2 in company with that responsibility) and designed interfaces and modems for HF, VHF, and UHF SSB, TTY, TOR application; and for landline asn SATCOM.

Designed and built the first video conferencing system that used automatic voice actuated camera switching with high level speaker audio.

HF, VHF, UHF, SATCOM, and landline voice and data (to 3600 bps, full duplex on HF) experience in 39 countries.

Yup, we're just dumb ol' boys who cain't operate nothin' if'n it ain't got no big knobs.....

kc2wi

09-15-2007, 03:03 AM

Interesting discussion. I can't say I know everything about APCO 25 and digital trunking systems, but they do to some extent rely on infrastructure so they are vulnerable.

Then again, how many hams and ARES/RACES groups do you know that conduct operations almost exclusively on repeaters. #Repeater=Infrastructure.

But as others have said, the biggest problem is not the equipment.

Aside from the political problems, fifedoms, etc., there is the problem of operator training.

How many police officers, firemen, or EMTs do you know that have any idea of how a radio works or how to do more than turn it on and maybe change the channel?

A police officer may never have to fire a gun in the line of duty, but they spend hours in weapons training. #They know all about operating a gun which they may never have to use.

Yet the radio - which has as much or more potential to save the officer's or someone else's life - most know very little about. I don't know the statistics, but I'll bet there isn't any regularly recurring communications training.

Then again, there are alot of 'appliance operator' hams too - and some of them are in ARES/RACES groups.

KC2WI

w6em

09-15-2007, 12:28 PM

Quote[/b] ]I can't say I know everything about APCO 25 and digital trunking systems, but they do to some extent rely on infrastructure so they are vulnerable.

APCO25 is a digital protocol and doesn't rely on infrastructure. #It can be used through a conventional digital repeater system or simplex. #Just as ICOM's Dstar can. #APCO25 is actually being used by amateurs in some areas.

The Achilles' Heel is the trunking concept.

Quote[/b] ]Then again, how many hams and ARES/RACES groups do you know that conduct operations almost exclusively on repeaters. #Repeater=Infrastructure.

Yes, true. # Simplex drills/nets should be part of the norm, since repeaters are useful for "when the sun's shining" public service activities only, unless hardened. #And, then, when the generator fuel supply is exhausted, well.....

Quote[/b] ]But as others have said, the biggest problem is not the equipment.

I disagree. #You can "train" all you want, but if the radios, including mobiles, only run a Watt or two, even on simplex at 700-900MHz they're virtually worthless, except for very short range communications. #The concept is the biggest problem for trunked systems.

Conventional repeaters and remote base half-duplex arrangements require, except in the most mountainous of base locations, relatively high powered mobiles. #As such, they are quite useful for simplex operation, as we all know as hams.

We depend upon simplex operation, free of infrastructure, as a communication means of last resort.

In the case of something like a Hurricane, and even a severe earthquake or forest fire, it is very likely and probable that a repeater will survive the event at a somewhat distant location. #As such, it could be used in conjunction with the event. #Whereas, with trunking systems, many cells in the affected area would likely be destroyed or heavily damaged and be rendered useless. #Even if the trunking controller should survive. #Distant trunking cells are worthless, due to their low power, range-limited-on-purpose design.

In the case of Hurricane Charlie in central Florida, amateur radio was fortunate to have had a very wide-range VHF/UHF repeater system, K4WCF/NI4CE, at a location that was unaffected, about 30 miles from the direct, eye-wall path that was able to provide communications for relief agencies when cell and Nextel systems were not working. This system typically had about a 50 mile omni-directional coverage radius.

Training is only part of the problem. #You can only go so far with what you have. #Literally.

One thing we should keep in mind: In a true disaster, the most common, conventional means should be used to communicate. (Analog NB FM) Why? Simply because it is most prevalent and used by others besides amateurs in spectrum adjoining our 2M band. Others with keyboard-entry frequency agility like the military and the Coast Guard.

KE4IKY

09-15-2007, 02:48 PM

Quote[/b] ]Training is only part of the problem. #You can only go so far with what you have. #Literally.

When you train properly, equipment shortfalls become obvious. #When the fire and police departments train, how often are communication failures part of the set of scenarios?

I realize that EMS has continuous real world responsibilities in addition to the training, maybe the guys in NYC can figure out a way of failing communications on occasion during excerszes without risking everything.

w6em

09-15-2007, 03:19 PM

Quote[/b] (KE4IKY @ Sep. 14 2007,08:48)]Quote[/b] ]Training is only part of the problem. #You can only go so far with what you have. #Literally.

Quote[/b] ]When you train properly, equipment shortfalls become obvious. #When the fire and police departments train, how often are communication failures part of the set of scenarios?

Probably never, if the guy who said "its failsafe" and OK'd the replacement of conventional radio in the first place has anything to say about it. #It would make him look bad, now, wouldn't it?

Or, he'll just take down one cell of the trunked system, not fail the controller.

Quote[/b] ]I realize that EMS has continuous real world responsibilities in addition to the training, maybe the guys in NYC can figure out a way of failing communications on occasion during excerszes without risking everything.

Taking down just one cell or disabling one talk group isn't a realistic failure simulation. #Kill the controller, so the whole system is in "fail-soft." #After all, they could still use cell phones (trunking failure back-up) to dispatch, if they need to.

I have a ham friend who is a department chief. #But, he knows better. #And, I'm confident that he will make sure his city manager understands the Achilles' Heel of trunked radio, not what the salesman says it is. #And, all of those that report to him in his PS department will understand as well.

The training that's really needed is an objective presentation of the pitfalls of trunked radio. #That would save lives.

KE4IKY

09-16-2007, 01:17 AM

Killing a talk group or cell would get people thinking a little more about systems failure and how to cope, by itself that’s worthwhile training.

I don't think anyone is going to junk NYC's trunked system, my guess is the best that they can do is try and get the appropriate people responsible to identify the single points of failure and make them more robust.

WA5BEN

09-16-2007, 05:11 PM

Quote[/b] (kc2wi @ Sep. 14 2007,20:03)]Interesting discussion. I can't say I know everything about APCO 25 and digital trunking systems, but they do to some extent rely on infrastructure so they are vulnerable.

Then again, how many hams and ARES/RACES groups do you know that conduct operations almost exclusively on repeaters. Repeater=Infrastructure.

But as others have said, the biggest problem is not the equipment.

Aside from the political problems, fifedoms, etc., there is the problem of operator training.

How many police officers, firemen, or EMTs do you know that have any idea of how a radio works or how to do more than turn it on and maybe change the channel?

A police officer may never have to fire a gun in the line of duty, but they spend hours in weapons training. They know all about operating a gun which they may never have to use.

Yet the radio - which has as much or more potential to save the officer's or someone else's life - most know very little about. I don't know the statistics, but I'll bet there isn't any regularly recurring communications training.

Then again, there are alot of 'appliance operator' hams too - and some of them are in ARES/RACES groups.

KC2WI
In the Dallas area, we use simplex as a 4th level fallback. We have a primary VHF repeater for Dallas County, a secondary VHF repeater for Dallas County, and a tertiary VHF repeater for Dallas County. (The 440 MHz primary is linked to the active 146 MHz repeater -- usually to the Primary -- when a net is up.) Each city has at least two VHF repeaters (one primary, one secondary), and a simplex VHF frequency for local / post-strike operational communications. Other counties have at least two levels of VHF repeaters plus simplex.

At the city level, least every three months we conduct a "repeater fail" drill. We switch first to the secondary, then to either a "named" repeater or to the defined simplex frequency. At the county level, we take part of the check-ins on the secondary repeater.

In either of my cars, I commonly monitor 3 VHF frequencies (i.e., 3 counties) during weather callouts. If the storm is localized, I will usually monitor 2 VHF frequencies and a UHF "back channel" (i.e., 2 counties and off-net discussions between net controls).

Simplex should be the LOWEST level of fallback, as you lose the ability to speak directly with (and be monitored by) NWS, city EOC, and county EOC. The best fallback plan is a sequenced list of geographically separated repeaters that offer good coverage for at least a 40 mile radius -- and training for all operators so that they KNOW to go to 146.yyy if 146.xxx fails. (But NCS and several other stations should still announce on the primary output frequency that all stations should move to 146.yyy.)

ab8al

09-17-2007, 04:17 PM

W9WHE:

FINALLY: Did Iridium bomb...sure did...BUT not because it did not work, but because it was OVERSOLD as working everywhere, when it would not work inside a building.

Your logic above makes you look like an idot. How can you claim it worked then in the same breath say it's failure was because it was OVERSOLD as working everywhere when it couldn't work inside buildings. Sounds like you have a no understanding of what works and doesn't work means. As you describe it the system didn't do what it was sold to do, that by most people means IT DIDN'T WORK. Another example is BPL which I guess you will say works and doesn't have any impact on RF communications.

AB8AL

W9WHE

09-17-2007, 07:12 PM

KC2WI writes:

Q: "How many police officers, firemen, or EMTs do you know that have any idea of how a radio works....."

How many hams "have any idea how" to enforce laws or intubate? The point is that it simply DOES NOT matter.

A: A radio is but a tool for PS people. While it mght be YOUR life, its just a tool for PS people, just like a circular saw is to a carpenter or a police car is to a cop. THEY DO NOT NEED TO KNOW HOW IT WORKS TO DO A JOB any more then you need to know how to mix up a Dopamine drip or arrest a felon. The radio does NOT help people, its the conduct of the person. A radio is just a tool. Get it?

I sure wish some hams would get a sense of perspective.

W9WHE

w6em

09-18-2007, 12:34 PM

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Sep. 16 2007,13:12)]KC2WI writes:

Q: "How many police officers, firemen, or EMTs do you know that have any idea of how a radio works....."

A: A radio is but a tool for PS people. While it mght be YOUR life, its just a tool for PS people, just like a circular saw is to a carpenter or a police car is to a cop. THEY DO NOT NEED TO KNOW HOW IT WORKS TO DO A JOB ....... A radio is just a tool. Get it?

I sure wish some hams would get a sense of perspective.

W9WHE
Jonathan: I doubt he meant literally how the trunking software selects the next frequency, how VCOs function, and such.

A tool is an instrument to enable a successful outcome to an effort on or off the job. Sometimes it makes a job easier, or, may, in fact, be a life saver.

Perhaps KC2WI meant the vernacular. I suspect he did.

So, if indeed, a paramedic or public safety user didn't fully understand what the features are that the trunker "tool" has on its user interface, keyboard buttons, etc., well, that's really the issue. Modes, personalities, groups, etc., can be confusing. And, certainly how to select simplex, and that its only useful for close-in communications. Perhaps its more akin to tossing a Palm Pilot to a carpenter and saying "here, you figure it out" without giving the person a manual and the time to read it.

Just like someone else trying to set the squelch level on your Astro Spectra. If they didn't know to press and hold the Monitor button down for a second or two, then the Mode button up or down, well, they'd be lost, now, wouldn't they? Much more complicated than just a squelch knob.

WA5BEN

09-18-2007, 11:59 PM

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Sep. 14 2007,09:30)]W6EM writes:

"Yes, they do what the sales and marketing executives tell them to"

WRONG.

Lee, as a former Product Manager with Hewlett Packard, I can tell you that you are, once again, dead WRONG.

Companies DO NOT invest MILLIONS on some hair-brained idea dreamed up by marketing guys over lunch. Concepts are devised in very close collaboration with the engineering. Millions are not spent until the project managers can assure (as in your future depends on it) top management that the project will not only work, but be profitable. Feasabillity studies are completed.

No CEO dedicates millions of dollars to a project unless/until he is convinced that the project will be successful. But hey, Lee knows more then everybody else, so everybody else must be wrong....

Come on Lee, tell us about your new product development expirence, will you?
Well......

I have quite a lot of product concept and product development experience for corporate, civilian government, and military services throughout the world. Very MANY of the devices and systems purchased by governments would NEVER be purchased in a large corporate environment -- even when the coverage required was identical.

WHY ?

Because the guy at the corporation who buys a "skunk" of a system will lose his job -- and his credibility for the next job. The government employee will lose NOTHING -- and will blame any fiasco on some low-level functionary.

In many cases, a radio system purchase at the city or county level is voted on with the floor CLOSED to citizen input. The people making the decision have ZERO technical knowledge, and most of their "advisers" have even less. The MARKETING guy from the "successful bidder" writes the explanation / briefing paper that JUSTIFIES the selection of HIS system, and explains why there should be no discussion in an open forum because of "technical and security" reasons.

And, THAT, dear friends, is how we get to pay millions for GARBAGE like trunking systems, instead of a few THOUSANDS for a system that is more reliable, more flexible, and offers better range.

Oh, and lest we forget, there was VERY little actual development cost for 800 MHz trunking. The radios existed as analog cellular telephones that were being phased out as multi-band capable cellular phones came along. They were an "end of life" product, and 800 MHz trunking was a way for the manufacturers to get ADDITIONAL revenue from an otherwise DEAD product line.

As trunking began to go "digital", again very little development cost. The voice algorithms were already developed for the cellular world. The manufacturers just plunked them into an analog radio and (sometimes) changed the modulator to have "digital". Adding "encryption" (actually quite low level Privacy) was rather easy. Again, existing algorithms.

That is how one turns the (less than $100.00 revenue per copy) ear of a dead sow into a $3000.00 per copy "silk purse".

WA5BEN

09-19-2007, 12:32 AM

Quote[/b] (w6em @ Sep. 12 2007,08:39)]Saving 3 cents on each ignition switch in Ford vehicles a few years back ended up costing Ford many millions in recalls and claims for vehicle fires. They now use Failure Mode Effects Analyses as part and parcel to their operations.

If FMEAs were done on trunked systems, I'd venture a guess that about 95% of law enforcement and fire agencies wouldn't adopt them, based on adequate exploration of the effects of various failures. Especially controller-related ones. Of course, just my speculation.
Actually, the part used in that switch was NEVER rated for automotive service. In fact, it was rated by the (silicon) device manufacturer for a maximum voltage FAR below 13.8 Volts (and well below 12 Volts). The company that produced the switch falsified their specification, and hid that fact from Ford.

And, I fully concur with the FMEA comment.

W9WHE

09-20-2007, 09:19 PM

Ever notice how a bunch of hobbyist hams know everything and that the guys with all the engineering degrees are just plain stupid?

The same guys whining about how FCC commissioners are not "technical people" and how important "technical" knowlege is in making decisions, are some of the same guys that argue that the guys with the most "technical" knowlege are just stupid.

Uhhhh huh. Riiiiight.

KC2MBV

09-21-2007, 12:59 AM

The problem as I see it is that the engineers, technicians and other generally smart people do not consult with the people who will be the actual users of the system. Bells & whistles without practical use is nothing more than fluff, a selling point that looks good to the administration but doesn't amount to a hill of beans to the person hitting the PTT. I have seen this many times.

What I haven't seen is the article in Popcomm. I was in the Manhattan Central Office for 12 hours and other dispatchers were there for 36 hours straight. Our radio system never failed, blinked or otherwise stopped working. I'd like to know what exactly the author meant when he said:

Quote[/b] ]Among the things Burkett discovered was that a battery back-up system for the New York fire department radio system was supposed to last 24 hours. It didn't.

This makes it sounds like we were off the air, which just isn't true. However, some people will say anything to sensationalize their point, truth not withstanding.

de Frank #AKA
Frank Raffa
Supv. Dispatcher, FDNY
www.FDNewYork.com

WA5BEN

09-21-2007, 03:35 AM

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Sep. 20 2007,14:19)]Ever notice how a bunch of hobbyist hams know everything and that the guys with all the engineering degrees are just plain stupid?

The same guys whining about how FCC commissioners are not "technical people" and how important "technical" knowlege is in making decisions, are some of the same guys that argue that the guys with the most "technical" knowlege are just stupid.

Uhhhh huh. Riiiiight.
The abject stupidity in this post is that the persons with whom you choose to disagree ARE engineers. We KNOW what works -- and what doesn't work -- based upon REAL WORLD tests and actual field experience under stringent non-simulated conditions. We have cited the failures, explained WHY they happened (and continue to happen), and explained the REASONS that the basic Root Cause CANNOT be solved in a trunking system.

The Public Safety Communications professionals of quite a few large cities have flatly REFUSED to go to 800/700 MHz systems, because they UNDERSTAND the fact that they would LOSE capabilities and coverage if they did -- in exchange for several million dollars. They refuse to pay many millions for trunking to get less than they now have. For a few hundred thousand, they can replace every conventional repeater and radio in their system. In many years, their maintenance budget -- including timely replacement of radios -- will be less than the cost of a trunking system.

I probably have more years of experience with military and civilian HF, VHF, UHF, landline, and SATCOM than you have years of experience of ANY kind. In field trials I have wandered about in rain forests and jungles in Africa, Asia, South America, and Central America; in the deserts of Asia, Africa, and North America; and in the far reaches of Europe and North America.

I have been baked, frozen, and drenched, and have bathed in rivers because there was nowhere else to bath. I have crossed the Andes in a rickety bus, where the road was one lane of dirt that hugged the side of the mountain, with a 10,000 foot drop just a very few inches away from the tire. I have been up and down the Amazon in a canoe. And, I have been shot at. NONE of that was for a vacation. Every bit was to participate in field trials for my company.

That irreplaceable field experience was combined with sound Engineering to create product concepts and product specifications so that our products would work where no other product would. That let us beat the competition -- and possibly save lives for the users.

If you would choose to listen to those of us who have enough experience and knowledge to understand the issues, you just MIGHT learn something. Your proclamations that the hi