There is a plan to limit/restrict/ban volunteers f [Archive]

k0cmh

09-02-2007, 08:32 PM

FEMA has a ton of courses set up. #Persons can either take then on the internet or in classrooms.

FEMA is in the process of setting up a national ID card system that will contain a bar code which will immediately identify what courses a person has completed and what certifications they have.

The whole concept of this is to allow the LOCAL people handling a disaster or other situation to decide who they need, how much of what trained personnel, and if those volunteers are trained and/or certified. #All the states are somewhere along the path, but FEMA doesn't have the computer running yet.

It is actually about to work very well. #My ARES group has signed a MOU with the local VA Hospital group (5 sites in themetro area). #They are telling us that those who volunteer to man the Ham radios will need to have taken the NIMS course and possible the IS700 and 200. #These are basic courses that provide an understanding fo the national system that everyone will be modeling after.

The intent is not to keep volunteers out, but a process where local officials can evaluate a volunteer and use them to the best advantage. #The idea is Mr. Smith shows up to volunteer. #The officials scan his ID, sees what courses he has taken and what certifications he has, and can decide the best way to use him. #Lets say Mr. Smith is a retired fireman and paramedic, in good health, has been trained and has experience in HAZMAT, and has kept his certifications up. #That could be very valuable to the authorities working an incident. #Ditto, an ARES volunteer. #The courses would be immediately kown, and the officials would know right away to say either "we don't need you, thanks but best to just go home", or, "we have a communications net set up, can you go to ____". #I reality, none of us ARES would just show up, we would stand by and wait for our leadership to be contacted and requested. #Then the officials could easily control who is admitted and not by the IDs.

And yes, it may sound harsh, but sometimes good hearted but not knowing volunteers can get in the way. #My ARES group stresses over and over that the worse thing one of us can do is to become another victum that pulls resources out of the recovery effort.

So, yes, the wackers will be unhappy, but in the long run, it should help things.

KC9ECI

09-02-2007, 08:54 PM

If the powers that be ever read any of the threads posted on QRZ, they wouldn't let the ham army within a country mile of any emergency scene.

kj3n

09-02-2007, 09:03 PM

Quote[/b] (KC9ECI @ Sep. 02 2007,16:54)]If the powers that be ever read any of the threads posted on QRZ, they wouldn't let the ham army within a country mile of any emergency scene.
WORD!!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

W5HTW

09-02-2007, 09:19 PM

Quote[/b] (KC9ECI @ Sep. 02 2007,13:54)]If the powers that be ever read any of the threads posted on QRZ, they wouldn't let the ham army within a country mile of any emergency scene.
That would be a smooth move! And you are right. We range from my own opinion that we should get out of the way and stay out of the way unless we are *requested specifically* to come help, to the opinions of those who think once they got a ham ticket in their mittens they became SuperHero. And all between those two. Too many take the ham license to mean "I is now certified by everybody to do everything."

I feel the local authorities know where and how to find me, and my ARES team, and if they NEED me, (and the team) they will let me know. If not, I'll sit home and cook burgers and watch tv.

Not sure how the ARRL will view this, though! It could mean the sale of a lot more certification booklets, so it might be a good thing for them. On the other hand, the FEMA certifications, online (I have taken about eight of their courses and received certifications) might be the ONLY certifications that will be included in the database. In which case the ARRL can go back to being an amateur radio organization, instead of a Government Fund Finding Agency.

This ID card project needs to be done. The lady in the article says the volunteers get in there and tell the truth. That ain't necessarily so. They tell THEIR truth, which is how "important" they were, and how "useless" goverment was. As the article points out, while they are getting in there to tell "their" truth, they are also getting in the way, and diverting efforts by the professionals, who are not only having to assist the needy, but search for the unwanted volunteers and try to herd them out of harm's way. Even those who do not get into trouble and need rescuing, may bring in tainted supplies, deliver improper medical care, such as moving someone with injuries they can't recognize or handle, and may undo things the professionals have done to help.

On another thread, someone said the volunteers were issued public safety radios (not ham radios) and sent in as team members, in Katrina. "Team Members" is a very important aspect. Not misdirected or undirected self-proclaimed heros.

I hope this gets put into place nation wide, even continent wide. And soon.

Ed

AA0CX

09-02-2007, 09:30 PM

Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ Sep. 02 2007,14:19)][
I feel the local authorities know where and how to find me, and my ARES team, and if they NEED me, (and the team) they will let me know. #If not, I'll sit home and cook burgers and watch tv.
Precisely:

There's nothing worse for Amateur Radio public relations than a gomer with a kazillion antennae on his vehicle, flashing amber [or blue, depending on state] light bar, with a walkie-talkie or two strapped to the hip, turning up at the scene and offering help.

They're wannabe heroes, action-starved amateurs, and all self-respecting hams should distance themselves from them.

Stay at home, stay away, unless called. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

WA9SVD

09-02-2007, 11:28 PM

"Bad help is better than no help at all..."

Sorry, but I strongly, even violently disagree. "Bad help" (untrained or inexperienced) can easily make a bad situation WORSE, by endangering not only the would-be helper but by improperly treating those that may be affected in a situation. That can either increase the injuries to victims or cause the helper to become a victim him/her self. And often will make the job of the professionals more difficult, and even delay proper rescue efforts.

KC0OFZ

09-03-2007, 01:26 AM

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Sep. 02 2007,13:26)]http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif # Wouldnt folks who get turned away say that they were discriminated against because of their race / sex / ethnic background / #weight / hair color / clothing they happen to have on / etc #?

Sounds like good business for discrimination lawyers to make more money with more clients..... ??

-------

Why not just LET folks that are willing to help, to actually help for a while, then as they get tired and leave for the others not to encourage them to come back later... that the others can handle it without them....?

Even bad help is better than no help..beggars cant be choosers.

If you make the rules too strict, even those who DO qualify may not want to help. Then nothing at all gets done.
Wrong, wrong and WRONG!!!
The last thing that is needed at any incident is more victims to rescue. Someone who will stay out of the way until asked is very valuable. Just showing up and being poor/bad help is dangerous for EVERYONE!!
Some hams are willing to tote water, food, blankets, or whatever besides run a radio WHEN ASKED. These individuals are valuable and needed, however, what is not needed is the growing attitude that the amateur radio ticket is a ticket to "do anything at any time". These fools show up in a vehicle with more lights than a Vagas Show, three or four hand helds on their belt and demand that they be put in charge. Worse yet they simply show up and try to do what ever it is they do with total disregard for all else. Above it all the league if fueling this fire by promising that all else will fail and they will "save the day" with a simple hand held.
If you can not follow the rules you have no business to be on scene and in the business. That is a lesson heard by rookie firefighters and EMT's on the first day of class. The last thing needed is more free lancing. If a ham can't follow this or any other rule, STAY HOME!!!!
Arend

K6UEY

09-03-2007, 02:03 AM

This seems to be the perfect made in USA oppurtunity to form a UNION. Only UNION personell are allowed with in 5 miles of the scene. If You do not have a UNION card you will be escourted away from the scene and sent home to watch it on TV.
Can you just picture a guy with 5 or 6 HT's strapped to his belt and a TV camera built into his Hard Hat trying to carry 10 or 15 blankets into the disaster area to distribute them, STAY HOME AND WATCH IT ON THE 6 O'clock NEWS !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

KA4DPO

09-03-2007, 02:04 AM

Quote[/b] (KC9ECI @ Sep. 02 2007,15:54)]If the powers that be ever read any of the threads posted on QRZ, they wouldn't let the ham army within a country mile of any emergency scene.
Nor should they. The unfortunate truth is that for every genuine well meaning ham that responds there are three free range whackers who make things worse.

I do agree that there needs to be some training but I think amateur emergency service should be by invite only and in specifically controlled areas.

KE4YGS

09-03-2007, 02:14 AM

Who is going to rescue the LEOs and Firefighters and other "certified competetant" officials though. #First man on the scene is always in charge until he can be relieved. #First man on the scene has no business waiting for anyone, help comes when it comes. #The badges and ladders can help when they get there. #If it is mandated that we wait for FEMA and for "certified" folks, real victims will be dieing while we wait.

This whole concept is bogus and counterproductive not to mention downright dangerous to the victims of a disaster. Wen the "trained" folks do finally arrive then they can organize and do what they do and finally take over. Assuming thay can get there or they can even communicate.

If you have never been to the scene of a bonified disaster as it happens, you should consider seriously that what is in print and what you hear is seldome even similar to what the reality is. LEOs and firefighters die just like the rest of us, they are not supermen they are just other civillians who get paid for the job.

Of course this is just my "personal" opinion. #Like the Government always knows best right? #Yeh right.

Scotty:D

ai4ep

09-03-2007, 02:24 AM

YGS --- The folks you appear to be talking about are --- the ones who are ON THE SCENE before the big - shots get there to take control of the situation.........?

Those folks are important....too.

...or did I say all that all wrong ?

The first folks ON THE SCENE dont have the HOT COFFEE, GENERATORS, FLOOD LIGHTS,PIZZA , etc that folks later on get to be in and around.

KE4YGS

09-03-2007, 02:33 AM

EP

Yes you are right, whenever and if they get there they can do whatever it is they can to help. #I guess those whom listen to generators, light lights and eat pizza also help LOL !

Scotty

ab0wr

09-03-2007, 03:18 AM

The piece that I worry about here is just how badly this will hinder actual disaster relief -- as opposed to first responders doing rescues and medical activities.

I was personally involved in loading a truck here from the local church that a driver took to LA after Katrina. Unable to find any effective official assistance in where to deliver the goods, he basically drove around, sometimes having to avoid roadblocks, to find a church that took the supplies for distribution.

My point was that the FEMA "ID'd" personnel were doing squat for actual disaster relief. Same for state and local officials. A few effective roadblocks in a future disaster only letting in "ID'd" people could mean that all kinds of disaster relief would be turned away.

This is *far* beyond just amateur radio.

I don't think the last has been heard about this from the common citizenry.

tim ab0wr

ky5u

09-03-2007, 04:32 AM

Quote[/b] (KE4YGS @ Sep. 02 2007,19:14)]Who is going to rescue the LEOs and Firefighters and other "certified competetant" officials though. First man on the scene is always in charge until he can be relieved. First man on the scene has no business waiting for anyone, help comes when it comes. The badges and ladders can help when they get there. If it is mandated that we wait for FEMA and for "certified" folks, real victims will be dieing while we wait.

This whole concept is bogus and counterproductive not to mention downright dangerous to the victims of a disaster. Wen the "trained" folks do finally arrive then they can organize and do what they do and finally take over. Assuming thay can get there or they can even communicate.

If you have never been to the scene of a bonified disaster as it happens, you should consider seriously that what is in print and what you hear is seldome even similar to what the reality is. LEOs and firefighters die just like the rest of us, they are not supermen they are just other civillians who get paid for the job.

Of course this is just my "personal" opinion. Like the Government always knows best right? Yeh right.

Scotty:D
Nobody is suggesting that anybody wait to help neighbors, but you do so at your own risk, and a Ham Radio badge won't protect you from your own limitations. If you're a 350 lb out of shape whacker lump and you rush in to help someone and have a heart attack, you aren't helping anyone.

The issue is once a bona fide emergency response arrives, you need to let the trained people work and get out of the way unless asked to assist.

AE6IP

09-03-2007, 04:58 AM

Sometimes the first people on the scene do more harm than good because they are well meaning but untrained.

A few years ago, I witnessed a roll over on 101. By the time I got pulled safely off the road and back to the scene, several people were standing around the flipped over car, trying to literally pull a person out of it, by his arms, without even checking to see if he was trapped or injured.

Fortunately, I remembered enough of my own training to be able to convince those people to stop until the pros got there. I then sent them off in search of fire extinguishers in their own cars, 'in case', and tried to keep the guy in the car calm and unmoving. Three minutes later the emergency crew was there. I will spare you the gruesome details, except to say that the guy would have died within moments had the 'helpful' folk kept trying to pull him out.

That's not an atypical story. People at car accidents tend to do all sorts of stupid things because they don't understand the risks involved.

It's worse in more widespread disasters. It does not help the rescue team to have untrained folks running into unsafe buildings and getting themselves trapped.

If you really want to be helpful, take CERT classes. Get your red cross first aid certificates and keep them up to date, but above all realize that you can do more harm than good because you are 'just trying to help.'

kb9sxk

09-03-2007, 05:49 AM

Any volunteer I let on to a scene or request to help will be trained and nims compliant. Period.

Ham, medic, or fire fighter.

That is all.

ad1os

09-03-2007, 06:06 AM

I was wondering when "credentializtion" was going to come out. We've had the barcodes on our ID's for a couple of years.

KE4YGS

09-03-2007, 06:48 AM

I agree with a lot that is said about the time line of things. #I didn't really understand the original part of the thread and the time line it was addressing. #Now that I do have a better understanding it makes more sense to me.

I suppose there are those whackers and blivots that would harm themselves and others rushing in to help. #I have never seen this myself. #I seem to have a bit higher opinion of John Q. Public than most "professionals" do.

I do however have a rather jaded view of infrastructure personnel and their abilities. #It isn't up to me to do your job for you nor tell you how to do it, if and when you finally get to a scene. #But, the attitude of certified only will sooner or later get someone killed or allow a victim/s to die while some bonafied fool waits for certified help. #When I was an LEO I learned to make use of EVERYONE at a scene, even other victims.

A certificate is a MINIMUM standard and guarantees results and performance similar to the lowest buidder with NASA. #Simply put, the best aren't always the perofessionals, cause the best simply can't afford to or will not work for what the "professionals" get paid. #Again I'm not addressing specific people I am addressing infrastructure in general. #In my opinion, it is poor at best and deadly at its worst.

Forums are a great place to talk like this but ya simply cant say it all at once. #You, or I, simply can't know everything thats in my or your head all at once. #Hence discussions get sidetracked with grandstanding, egos, and the search for who speaks from the strongest platform. #It is a difficult discussion at best.

All the best guys http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Scotty

k9kjm

09-03-2007, 07:18 AM

I thought that the NRCEV (National Registry of Cerfified Emcomm Volunteers) was a big step in the right direction.
But that effort so far has not met with a lot of results.

I do agree with the majority here, Untrained persons need to be kept OUT of any emergency area!

KC0OFZ

09-03-2007, 10:02 AM

Quote[/b] (KE4YGS @ Sep. 02 2007,19:14)]Who is going to rescue the LEOs and Firefighters and other "certified competetant" officials though. #First man on the scene is always in charge until he can be relieved. #First man on the scene has no business waiting for anyone, help comes when it comes. #The badges and ladders can help when they get there. #If it is mandated that we wait for FEMA and for "certified" folks, real victims will be dieing while we wait.

This whole concept is bogus and counterproductive not to mention downright dangerous to the victims of a disaster. #Wen the "trained" folks do finally arrive then they can organize and do what they do and finally take over. #Assuming thay can get there or they can even communicate.

If you have never been to the scene of a bonified disaster as it happens, you should consider seriously that what is in print and what you hear is seldome even similar to what the reality is. #LEOs and firefighters die just like the rest of us, they are not supermen they are just other civillians who get paid for the job.

Of course this is just my "personal" opinion. #Like the Government always knows best right? #Yeh right.

Scotty:D
So tell me, who will save the "certified competant" then? #Will it be you? #Will it be the whackers? #I guess we do not need any certified folks according to you. #Just you and your trusty hand held and all will be good. #
What makes you think you are always going to be able to get "there"? #Tell me that, how are you so much better at getting "there" if the need be. # Why is it a fact you will be able to communicate and not the "certified" folks? #Why do whackers always assueme that the "certified" equipment and persons will ALWAYS fail?

"I do however have a rather jaded view of infrastructure personnel and their abilities. #It isn't up to me to do your job for you nor tell you how to do it, if and when you finally get to a scene. #But, the attitude of certified only will sooner or later get someone killed or allow a victim/s to die while some bonafied fool waits for certified help. #When I was an LEO I learned to make use of EVERYONE at a scene, even other victims."

"A certificate is a MINIMUM standard and guarantees results and performance similar to the lowest buidder with NASA. #Simply put, the best aren't always the perofessionals, cause the best simply can't afford to or will not work for what the "professionals" get paid. #Again I'm not addressing specific people I am addressing infrastructure in general. #In my opinion, it is poor at best and deadly at its worst."

I am so glad that all of the "certified" out there are poor at best according to you. #Of course that also means that when you were a LEO you were piss poor as well. #I am sure glad you are no longer in the business, we do not need any more poor LEOs out there, we have too many according to you.

Ok, since you know ALL the problems, what have you done to fix it? #Aside from get your amateur ticket. #What are you doing to fix all of this? #You have such a #hate toward any professional group and their abilities, it is time for you to fix it.
Tell us, when will we see your great changes?

KC9ECI

09-03-2007, 12:46 PM

Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 03 2007,00:49)]Any volunteer I let on to a scene or request to help will be trained and nims compliant. #Period.

Ham, medic, or fire fighter.

That is all.
Your qualifications are?

wd0ct

09-03-2007, 12:51 PM

K9FV

09-03-2007, 01:04 PM

Quote[/b] (ab0wr @ Sep. 02 2007,21:18)]The piece that I worry about here is just how badly this will hinder actual disaster relief -- as opposed to first responders doing rescues and medical activities.

I was personally involved in loading a truck here from the local church that a driver took to LA after Katrina. Unable to find any effective official assistance in where to deliver the goods, he basically drove around, sometimes having to avoid roadblocks, to find a church that took the supplies for distribution.

My point was that the FEMA "ID'd" personnel were doing squat for actual disaster relief. Same for state and local officials. A few effective roadblocks in a future disaster only letting in "ID'd" people could mean that all kinds of disaster relief would be turned away.

This is *far* beyond just amateur radio.

I don't think the last has been heard about this from the common citizenry.

tim ab0wr
Tim, as everyone is aware, there was a LOT of that problem happening in Katrina - I've several friends living in the N.O. area at the time and some of the "first hand" tales I've heard convince me more than ever (if I ever needed convincing) that waiting for gov'ment help is silly. Get in there and help thy self!

Ken

KE4YGS

09-03-2007, 01:22 PM

OFZ

I have no hate for any group or any person that tries to help. #I wont even address the top part cause it is nothing but personal comments toward me.

How would I fix it? #There is no simple fix so it wont be a witty one liner and an insult certainly won't be the fix. #I am not against certification levels but that crap belongs in a file somewhere for the next pay raise. #I guess the shortest possible answer is to require more of "professionals" both academic and techinical as well as practical, exercse them more often and evaluate them to a higher standard & more often, and above all else, pay them enouogh so they don't leave whatever organization they are working for.

Provide them with the best equipment available not just better equipment, though I agree it is s poor craftsman whom blames the tools of his trade, better tools and equipment does make a difference.

If one is going to claim to be better at something then the public has a right to expect an associated performance level and result. #Maybe more of a result oritented evaluation system might be in order. #Not so much of a meet a paper standard but show me you can save lives, show me you you don't panic or get distracted managing a scene of victims, onlookers, possible perpetraters, and doo gooders. #It really isn't that hard, but it does require training and forethough.

As far as people wanting to help, fortunately as of this time nothing is broke there that needs to be fixed. #

Remember that infrastructure organizations are there to HElP our society not do it for them so adopt the attitude of how may I help, not this is my domain get out, or you may just find you are the one that ends up out in the long run.

Scotty

K9FV

09-03-2007, 01:52 PM

Hey I just had a thought (scary) but think of all the states that have passed favorable antenna bills based on Ecomm indea.... perhaps some good to go with the bad?

Ken

KD8CPX

09-03-2007, 02:11 PM

In my county, we've already started that on the ARES/RACES side of things. IS-100, IS-700 and IS-22 for basic RACES, and IS-200 and IS-800 are also required if your going to be working at the Emergency Management Division.

W5HTW

09-03-2007, 03:24 PM

There is a serious, even dramatic, difference between being IN a disaster, and rushing TO a disaster. Clearly, if you are in your town and it is hit by a tornado, you are already on the scene. It is your obligation, as a citizen, not as a ham radio operator, to do what you can to save yourself, your family, others around you, then pets and property. Anyone should understand that.

If you are first, or even among the first, on the scene of a serious accident, you should react by helping the best way you know how. Keeping victims warm to avoid shock, keeping them from moving except to escape spreading fire or rising flood waters, and the like, should be the first thing on your mind. You are THERE. The police and fire and medics are not. You can't just sit and fold your hands and smile.

But the other side of the story is rushing TO the scene. And here is where we have the problem in amateur radio. You are not there, but you hear about it on your scanner, and you hop into your car, turn on the flashing lights, grab your HT, and rush to the fire, accident, flood, or whatever. Now you ARE there, and chances are by the time YOU can get there, trained personnel can, too. And they can do what is necessary. Sure, if they need an extra hand, let them know yours are availabie. I don't see a problme with that. But only if you are there already, or they call you on the phone and say "hey, come down here and give us a hand."

Respond as a citizen. Forget about amateur radio. Be a citizen. If you don't even have a radio or cell phone with you, would you refuse to assist? I hope not. I hope you would be willing to help. Most of us have been in that situation a few times, and it has nothing at all to do with amateur radio. I have stood for 30 minutes in a snow storm, directing traffic around a wrecked vehicle, while waiting for emergency crews and police to arrive, delayed by road conditions. Not a problem! That is what I, as a citizen, am expected to do. Has nothing to do with being a hero or being a ham. And when the cop got on scene to direct traffic, I got in my car and left.

Why?

I am no longer needed! I've passed a fire approaching a house and I grabbed a garden hose and fought the fire, along with some other passers-by, until professional help arrived. Then I put the hose away and I drove on to my destination.

It's about citizenship. It is not about an HT on the belt. It is not about light bars and badges and Emcom, and being a hero. It is about a citizen's responsibility.

The point is, when the pros arrived, --- Go away!!! Unless they ask you to stay.

This ham license is not a means around the law enforcement academy, or to shortcut medical school, or fire fighters school. It is a license to talk on certain radio frequencies. It does not certify you to do anything else.

I am not anti-volunteers in any way. I simply think it needs to be done with some sort of common sense, not this whacker mentality we see too often. And it needs to be done with property training. And finally, it needs to be done with the knowledge we hams are not the bosses. We are not the incident commander. We are the followers not the leaders. We don't go in there with the "now I'm in control" approach. We go when called, we leave when it is clear we are not needed.

We have left a bad taste in the mouths of many emergency professionals, and I have spoken with some of them. They do not want amateur radio operators on the scene, period. I understand why. We overstep our boundaries way too quickly and too easily, and we overrate our ham license as some sort of professional certification. It isn't one!!

All that said, I am still very much against people entering amateur radio when they have NO interest in amateur radio.

Ed

ky5u

09-03-2007, 03:47 PM

Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 02 2007,22:49)]Any volunteer I let on to a scene or request to help will be trained and nims compliant. Period.

Ham, medic, or fire fighter.

That is all.
Yep, your comments illustrate the opposite end of the Whacker scale, the "Training Snob", interested in schooling and certificates above all else. It's about tallying up the paper qualifications. So a question just for you. Why would I need Hazmat training if I am a FF in a rural area that has never had a hazmat incident?

AC0H

09-03-2007, 03:57 PM

Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ Sep. 03 2007,10:24)]There is a serious, even dramatic, difference between being IN a disaster, and rushing TO a disaster. Clearly, if you are in your town and it is hit by a tornado, you are already on the scene. It is your obligation, as a citizen, not as a ham radio operator, to do what you can to save yourself, your family, others around you, then pets and property. Anyone should understand that.

If you are first, or even among the first, on the scene of a serious accident, you should react by helping the best way you know how. Keeping victims warm to avoid shock, keeping them from moving except to escape spreading fire or rising flood waters, and the like, should be the first thing on your mind. You are THERE. The police and fire and medics are not. You can't just sit and fold your hands and smile.

But the other side of the story is rushing TO the scene. And here is where we have the problem in amateur radio. You are not there, but you hear about it on your scanner, and you hop into your car, turn on the flashing lights, grab your HT, and rush to the fire, accident, flood, or whatever. Now you ARE there, and chances are by the time YOU can get there, trained personnel can, too. And they can do what is necessary. Sure, if they need an extra hand, let them know yours are availabie. I don't see a problme with that. But only if you are there already, or they call you on the phone and say "hey, come down here and give us a hand."

Respond as a citizen. Forget about amateur radio. Be a citizen. If you don't even have a radio or cell phone with you, would you refuse to assist? I hope not. I hope you would be willing to help. Most of us have been in that situation a few times, and it has nothing at all to do with amateur radio. I have stood for 30 minutes in a snow storm, directing traffic around a wrecked vehicle, while waiting for emergency crews and police to arrive, delayed by road conditions. Not a problem! That is what I, as a citizen, am expected to do. Has nothing to do with being a hero or being a ham. And when the cop got on scene to direct traffic, I got in my car and left.

Why?

I am no longer needed! I've passed a fire approaching a house and I grabbed a garden hose and fought the fire, along with some other passers-by, until professional help arrived. Then I put the hose away and I drove on to my destination.

It's about citizenship. It is not about an HT on the belt. It is not about light bars and badges and Emcom, and being a hero. It is about a citizen's responsibility.

The point is, when the pros arrived, --- Go away!!! Unless they ask you to stay.

This ham license is not a means around the law enforcement academy, or to shortcut medical school, or fire fighters school. It is a license to talk on certain radio frequencies. It does not certify you to do anything else.

I am not anti-volunteers in any way. I simply think it needs to be done with some sort of common sense, not this whacker mentality we see too often. And it needs to be done with property training. And finally, it needs to be done with the knowledge we hams are not the bosses. We are not the incident commander. We are the followers not the leaders. We don't go in there with the "now I'm in control" approach. We go when called, we leave when it is clear we are not needed.

We have left a bad taste in the mouths of many emergency professionals, and I have spoken with some of them. They do not want amateur radio operators on the scene, period. I understand why. We overstep our boundaries way too quickly and too easily, and we overrate our ham license as some sort of professional certification. It isn't one!!

All that said, I am still very much against people entering amateur radio when they have NO interest in amateur radio.

Ed
Ditto.

KC9ECI

09-03-2007, 04:11 PM

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 03 2007,10:47)]Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 02 2007,22:49)]Any volunteer I let on to a scene or request to help will be trained and nims compliant. Period.

Ham, medic, or fire fighter.

That is all.
Yep, your comments illustrate the opposite end of the Whacker scale, the "Training Snob", interested in schooling and certificates above all else. It's about tallying up the paper qualifications. So a question just for you. Why would I need Hazmat training if I am a FF in a rural area that has never had a hazmat incident?
I'm on a fairly rural department. I hold certification as a Hazardous Materials Tech, B level.

Just about every fire, car accident, etc, any more is a hazmat scene.

For instance, I was first on scene at this not too many years ago:

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6937/3705fire004he1.jpg

I suppose an awareness level course would have been enough to keep me alive had the contents been hazardous.

BTW, on arrival, there was no placarding, the driver had no documentation, and no clue what was in the tank.

ad1os

09-03-2007, 04:28 PM

KC9ECI - that's a great picture. Would you consider starting a thread in Rag Chew, just to see how others would handle it in the first five minutes?

AE6IP

09-03-2007, 05:09 PM

Quote[/b] (ad1os @ Sep. 03 2007,08:28)]KC9ECI - that's a great picture. Would you consider starting a thread in Rag Chew, just to see how others would handle it in the first five minutes?
I'm not hazmat trained. So, I follow the rule for untrained people:

move upwind and uphill until you're far enough away that your thumb, held at arms length, entirely covers the scene.

now that you're relatively safe: keep moving, you've got no business being there. . .

KE4YGS

09-03-2007, 05:13 PM

HTW

I agree 100% about following the ambulance or firetruck or whatever to the scene of a disaster. #THAT IS ILLEGAL in the first place. #If its being reported on the scanner, then someone already knows about it, thats HOW it got on the scanner.

Big difference in being in one or coming upon one. #Once operations are established "whomever" the incident commander is can chose who he/she wants to stay or go.

Usually its flood or drought when it comes to helping hands though, to many or none at all. #Both hamper efforts.

I also agree Ham Radio ticket doesn't make you anything but a citizen who can communicate. #Tickets and certs dont make you anything either. #YOU add the value to the cert, not the cert adding value to you.

I keep hearing a negative tone about Whackers and such and I really am not up on what they are except what I am inferring from this thread. #If what I think, is correct, whackers aren't any better at anything else they do either. #There will always be glory seekers and meddlers. #They dont count for much, but the man who jumps in and stops bleeding, can identify, and respond to, internal bleeding, broken linbs, CPR, soft tissue injuries is the man who saves lives when seconds not minutes count. #You don't have to be certified to do this, but you DO need to at least know basic 9th grade things about the human body and how it works. #Maybe they don't teach this stuff in school anymore and maybe thats why the cry for certifications.

This thread is even making me concerned that "most" of the folks walking around, really don't have any clue about what to do when the world turns upside down on them. #Its hard for me to believe, but I certainly have to acquiess to the possibility that America has been dummed down far enough for that to be the case. #If it is the case I truely do not feel sorry about it.

We as a nation seem to have chosen to not require anything of anybody and whatever the result we get is fitting I guess.

Maybe I am "in todays world" wrong about the purpose of infrastructure organizations being there to HELP citizens, not do it for them. #However in "MY" case I still will call them to HELP me NOT to do things FOR me. #Be it protection, my house on fire, or a sick or injured person.

Maybe I have a dieing perspective on what it is to be a citizen. #My idea may go to the grave with me and if that is the case, then so be it, at least I won't have to live in a world where the citizen is not the boss and infastructure has to respond to him. #I simply do not work for the Government, the government works for me in both the theoretical and practical world. #Thats just how I see it.

It won't be much longer though and those of my ilk will be gone. #the world will pass on to the boys with certifications, badges, uniforms and authority OVER the citizenry. #Just don't be too impatient for it to happen, its coming anyway.

Scotty

KC9ECI

09-03-2007, 05:22 PM

Quote[/b] (ad1os @ Sep. 03 2007,11:28)]KC9ECI - that's a great picture. Would you consider starting a thread in Rag Chew, just to see how others would handle it in the first five minutes?
Feel free.

ky5u

09-03-2007, 05:37 PM

Quote[/b] (KC9ECI @ Sep. 03 2007,09:11)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 03 2007,10:47)]Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 02 2007,22:49)]Any volunteer I let on to a scene or request to help will be trained and nims compliant. Period.

Ham, medic, or fire fighter.

That is all.
Yep, your comments illustrate the opposite end of the Whacker scale, the "Training Snob", interested in schooling and certificates above all else. It's about tallying up the paper qualifications. So a question just for you. Why would I need Hazmat training if I am a FF in a rural area that has never had a hazmat incident?
I'm on a fairly rural department. I hold certification as a Hazardous Materials Tech, B level.

Just about every fire, car accident, etc, any more is a hazmat scene.

For instance, I was first on scene at this not too many years ago:

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6937/3705fire004he1.jpg

I suppose an awareness level course would have been enough to keep me alive had the contents been hazardous.

BTW, on arrival, there was no placarding, the driver had no documentation, and no clue what was in the tank.
Appreciate the answer but I want my friend to answer with his opinion.

AA0CX

09-03-2007, 08:52 PM

KC0OFZ

09-04-2007, 01:32 AM

Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ Sep. 03 2007,08:24)]There is a serious, even dramatic, difference between being IN a disaster, and rushing TO a disaster. #Clearly, if you are in your town and it is hit by a tornado, you are already on the scene. #It is your obligation, as a citizen, not as a ham radio operator, to do what you can to save yourself, your family, others around you, then pets and property. #Anyone should understand that. #

If you are first, or even among the first, on the scene of a serious accident, you should react by helping the best way you know how. #Keeping victims warm to avoid shock, keeping them from moving except to escape spreading fire or rising flood waters, and the like, should be the first #thing on your mind. #You are THERE. #The police and fire and medics are not. #You can't just sit and fold your hands and smile. #

But the other side of the story is rushing TO the scene. #And here is where we have the problem in amateur radio. #You are not there, but you hear about it on your scanner, and you hop into your car, turn on the flashing lights, grab your HT, and rush to the fire, accident, flood, or whatever. #Now you ARE there, and chances are by the time YOU can get there, trained personnel can, too. # And they can do #what is necessary. #Sure, if they need an extra hand, let them know yours are availabie. #I don't see a problme with that. #But only if you are there already, or they call you on the phone and say "hey, come down here and give us a hand."

Respond as a citizen. #Forget about amateur radio. Be a citizen. If you don't even have a radio or cell phone with you, would you refuse to assist? #I hope not. #I hope you would be willing to help. #Most of us have been in that situation a few times, and it has nothing at all to do with amateur radio. #I have stood for 30 minutes in a snow storm, directing traffic around a wrecked vehicle, while waiting for emergency crews and police to arrive, delayed by road conditions. #Not a problem! #That is what I, as a citizen, am expected to do. #Has nothing to do with being a hero or being a ham. #And when the cop got on scene to direct traffic, I got in my car and left. #

Why? # #

I am no longer needed! # I've passed a fire approaching a house and I grabbed a garden hose and fought the fire, along with some other passers-by, until professional help arrived. #Then I put the hose away and I drove on to my destination. #

It's about citizenship. #It is not about an HT on the belt. #It is not about light bars and badges and Emcom, and being a hero. #It is about a citizen's responsibility. #

The point is, when the pros arrived, --- Go away!!! #Unless they ask you to stay. #

This ham license is not a means around the law enforcement academy, or to shortcut medical school, or fire fighters school. #It is a license to talk on certain radio frequencies. #It does not certify you to do anything else. #

I am not anti-volunteers in any way. #I simply think it needs to be done with some sort of common sense, not this whacker mentality we see too often. #And it needs to be done with property training. #And finally, it needs to be done with the knowledge we hams are not the bosses. #We are not the incident commander. #We are the followers not the leaders. #We don't go in there with the "now I'm in control" approach. #We go when called, we leave when it is clear we are not needed. #

We have left a bad taste in the mouths of many emergency professionals, and I have spoken with some of them. #They do not want amateur radio operators on the scene, period. #I understand why. #We overstep our boundaries way too quickly and too easily, and we overrate our ham license as some sort of professional certification. # It isn't one!!

All that said, I am still very much against people entering amateur radio when they have NO interest in amateur radio.

Ed
Ed, you have it right on the money.
I, along with many, have never said that the volunteer is not needed. We however do not need the "whacker" mentality that causes the problems. Ecommers need to understand that there are rules and regulations made often (not always) but most often to KEEP YOU SAFE!! This is my first rule as a firefighter and an EMT. Can I do this job as safely as possible? I understand that what I do has enoumous risks, however, I do not want to take any stupid risks and put my self in danger along with my fellow brothers and sisters who now have to pull me out of what ever mess I am in because I was stupid.
Going outside of what you have been trained for and are comfortable with, is just a situation inviting disaster. I am sure that ECI would agree with this as well, knowing what line of work he is in. Will you get caught the first time or everytime by being careless? Maybe not, but why chance it?
Once again volunteers are needed and are valuable. Whether it is carrying water or food to the rescue crews, directing traffic around a vehicle accident, or simply passing a message to a victims loved ones, it is a service that is needed. We need to be ready to serve but not be so eager that we are simply "underfoot". Nothing will get under the skin of IC faster than too many persons who are simply in the way. There will not always be jobs for everyone, if that is the case simply back off and leave. You can tell them you are avaliable, where and how to contact you, but the best thing you can do is leave and let the job get done. Your service may not even be radio related but no task if needed and requested unimportant so don't be too proud. I have handed out water many times on the fire grounds, it is not beneith me.
In the end, please, PLEASE use common sence, be safe, not only for you, but everyone around you and do not be afraid to admit if there is something you can not do. IC would rather have you decline now then have to pull your fat out of the fire when it has all gone bad.
Be safe, be avaliable and enjoy what you do.
Arend

KC0OFZ

09-04-2007, 01:39 AM

Quote[/b] (KC9ECI @ Sep. 03 2007,09:11)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 03 2007,10:47)]Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 02 2007,22:49)]Any volunteer I let on to a scene or request to help will be trained and nims compliant. #Period.

Ham, medic, or fire fighter.

That is all.
Yep, your comments illustrate the opposite end of the Whacker scale, the "Training Snob", interested in schooling and certificates above all else. #It's about tallying up the paper qualifications. #So a question just for you. #Why would I need Hazmat training if I am a FF in a rural area that has never had a hazmat incident?
I'm on a fairly rural department. #I hold certification as a Hazardous Materials Tech, B level.

Just about every fire, car accident, etc, any more is a hazmat scene. #

For instance, I was first on scene at this not too many years ago:

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6937/3705fire004he1.jpg

I suppose an awareness level course would have been enough to keep me alive had the contents been hazardous.

BTW, on arrival, there was no placarding, the driver had no documentation, and no clue what was in the tank.
Reminds me of a train derailment I worked on one winter. Thankfully the cars that tipped were carrying wheat and clay. The ethanol cars remained upright and on the track. One evacuation and very large mess avoided.
If I could get the picture to post I would show the mess, but alas, I must not be smart enough to get it to work.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

kb9sxk

09-04-2007, 04:52 AM

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 03 2007,10:37)]Quote[/b] (KC9ECI @ Sep. 03 2007,09:11)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 03 2007,10:47)]Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 02 2007,22:49)]Any volunteer I let on to a scene or request to help will be trained and nims compliant. #Period.

Ham, medic, or fire fighter.

That is all.
Yep, your comments illustrate the opposite end of the Whacker scale, the "Training Snob", interested in schooling and certificates above all else. #It's about tallying up the paper qualifications. #So a question just for you. #Why would I need Hazmat training if I am a FF in a rural area that has never had a hazmat incident?
I'm on a fairly rural department. #I hold certification as a Hazardous Materials Tech, B level.

Just about every fire, car accident, etc, any more is a hazmat scene. #

For instance, I was first on scene at this not too many years ago:

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6937/3705fire004he1.jpg

I suppose an awareness level course would have been enough to keep me alive had the contents been hazardous.

BTW, on arrival, there was no placarding, the driver had no documentation, and no clue what was in the tank.
Appreciate the answer but I want my friend to answer with his opinion.
I Think that every FF should have Haz mat OPS .

I think I was a bit misunderstood. I am not a training snob at all. I have no problem with expediant training for specific duties.

My Creds...
EMT-PI
HAZ-MAT OPS
NIMS 400 instructor trainer
Response to Terrorism Law Enf. OPS Trainer
Radiological Tech
CERT instructor trainer
PDS, PEM
yada yada yada

Lets just say, I have game.

KC5SAS

09-04-2007, 02:12 PM

From the article-
Quote[/b] ]he and other volunteers also came up with their own makeshift identification cards.

“We didn’t forge anything, we just made them up with our own pictures and at one point we copied a UPC code off a Pepsi can and they were as good as gold,” said the Scarsdale resident.

This kind of thing is exactly why we need a universally recognized card. If any well meaning, but uncertified, person can mock up fake IDs and get access to disaster scenes then things are seriously messed up.

k0cmh

09-04-2007, 03:00 PM

ECI: Most of the posts here are about people who are not wackers and who express opinions that this attitude is bad. So, if they would come to this site, I think they would get a favorable impression of the Ham community regarding this issue.

Some have grasp the difference of being right in the middle of an incident and "running to it". If an incident such as a tanker running off the road and turning over, I would for sure do what I could to be helpful but not endanger myself (thus draining resources from the first responders). I think common sense and the basic training (such as found in the ARRL level 1 and 2, and the various FEMS courses) would have me doing someting like trying to prevent other traffic on the road from proceeding to the accident scene, until an official first responder arrived. That seems like a reasonable course of action to prevent possible injury/death of other motorists.

And no, I don't have ( or want) any light bars or badges or whatever.

I can say this: I would greatly appreciate someone on the side of the road flagging down my wife and telling her there is a spilled tank truck ahead, rather than everyone just departing the scene and letting her and everyone else drive up to it.

ky5u

09-04-2007, 03:04 PM

Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 03 2007,21:52)]I Think that every FF should have Haz mat OPS .

I think I was a bit misunderstood. I am not a training snob at all. I have no problem with expediant training for specific duties.
So i want to be sure I understand. You are saying every FF should have Hazmat training whether they ever need it or not, it would be best for them to be ready anyhow?

kb9sxk

09-04-2007, 04:23 PM

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 04 2007,08:04)]Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 03 2007,21:52)]I Think that every FF should have Haz mat OPS . #

I think I was a bit misunderstood. #I am not a training snob at all. #I have no problem with expediant training for specific duties.
So i want to be sure I understand. #You are saying every FF should have Hazmat training whether they ever need it or not, it would be best for them to be ready anyhow?
I would feel safe saying that at some point (or many points) most FFs will come face to face with hazmat. OPS teaches you to safe the situation until the techs get there.

No need for every ff to be an expert, but 16 hours is not too much to ask.

ai4ep

09-04-2007, 04:27 PM

Charlie --- surely YOU can handle 2 days of training.

The rest of us might can handle qrz while you are learning about hazmat situations.

just trying to help...!!

ai4ep (Robert) http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

ky5u

09-04-2007, 05:14 PM

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Sep. 04 2007,09:27)]Charlie --- surely YOU can handle 2 days of training.

The rest of us might can handle qrz while you are learning about hazmat situations.

just trying to help...!!

ai4ep (Robert) http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I have Operations level in Hazmat. Also have 2500+ hours of training including:

FF I, II, III, and IV (FF I in two states)
Fire Officer I,II, III
Fire Admin I, II, III, IV
Fire Executive Management Certification from LSU
Certificates in Aircraft Crash Rescue, Highrise Rescue, Auto Extrication, Military Aircraft Rescue, Woodland Firefighting, Industrial Firefighting, Strategy and Tactics I-IV, EMT B, First Responder, Hazmat Operations level, Incident Command both the California Model and the Phoenix Model, Fire Instructor, SCBA Instructor, Fire Investigation, Arson Investigation, Aerial Firefighting Specialist, and more. And I know people with twice this amount of training.

How about you?

ky5u

09-04-2007, 05:16 PM

Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 04 2007,09:23)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 04 2007,08:04)]Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 03 2007,21:52)]I Think that every FF should have Haz mat OPS .

I think I was a bit misunderstood. I am not a training snob at all. I have no problem with expediant training for specific duties.
So i want to be sure I understand. You are saying every FF should have Hazmat training whether they ever need it or not, it would be best for them to be ready anyhow?
I would feel safe saying that at some point (or many points) most FFs will come face to face with hazmat. OPS teaches you to safe the situation until the techs get there.

No need for every ff to be an expert, but 16 hours is not too much to ask.
I noticed you're a no code test rule change upgrade. Why did you not upgrade prior to this year?

N8ODF

09-04-2007, 06:17 PM

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 04 2007,10:16)]Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 04 2007,09:23)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 04 2007,08:04)]Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 03 2007,21:52)]I Think that every FF should have Haz mat OPS . #

I think I was a bit misunderstood. #I am not a training snob at all. #I have no problem with expediant training for specific duties.
So i want to be sure I understand. #You are saying every FF should have Hazmat training whether they ever need it or not, it would be best for them to be ready anyhow?
I would feel safe saying that at some point (or many points) most FFs will come face to face with hazmat. #OPS teaches you to safe the situation until the techs get there.

No need for every ff to be an expert, but 16 hours is not too much to ask.
I noticed you're a no code test rule change upgrade. #Why did you not upgrade prior to this year?
I noticed you think you have the right to judge others, have you sought help for your narcissism

KB2FCV

09-04-2007, 06:41 PM

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 04 2007,08:04)]Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 03 2007,21:52)]I Think that every FF should have Haz mat OPS . #

I think I was a bit misunderstood. #I am not a training snob at all. #I have no problem with expediant training for specific duties.
So i want to be sure I understand. #You are saying every FF should have Hazmat training whether they ever need it or not, it would be best for them to be ready anyhow?
Definitely every FF should have hazmat training! No town is immune to a potential hazmat situation. Chances are probably 99.9999 percent that you will have to deal with a hazmat situation.

n9lya

09-04-2007, 07:16 PM

Quote[/b] (KC0OFZ @ Sep. 02 2007,07:52)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 02 2007,11:43)]Quote[/b] (kb7xu @ Sep. 02 2007,11:34)]There is a plan to limit/restrict/ban well-meaning but untrained volunteers from helping at disaster sites. #I wonder how this will affect ARES, RACES and those hams who are ARRL formally-trained communicators?

What will be the operational definition of "professionally trained."

I think at the least, the Section managers in California should be alerted to this. #See the following story dated 09-02-07 at

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20551051/
I think the solution could much like the Hazmat response Hot, Warm, and Cold zones. #Based on the disaster, only trained people in the hot zone, lightly trained in the warm zone and well meaning neophites in the cold zone. #Break up tasks related to support IC into where the participants need to be. #We may see a whole set of duties suitable for the cold zone where untrained volunteers could free up trained personnel for duty closer to the disaster.
Best idea I have heard so far. #Of course the whackers will disagree but that is life. #Untrained persons have NO place in the hot zone, HT radio or not.
I agree fully.. I also agree.. that a one hour skywwarn class does not make you a Storm Chaser, But mearly a Weather Spotter... Sorry.

I also agree a 1 hour class at a local EOC does not make you Trained Volunteer..

Only Formal Classes and experience can make you a Trained Volunteer.

I am not real sure about the effectiveness of ARRL (Long distance training).. Maybe local EOCs should have a Semester or two of Formal training with Onsite excerizes.. Like at a local Vocational school.. Offer a crediot for Continuing Education.. And then maybe you will have those worthy of being called TRAINED VOLUNTEERS...

There is enough Grant money to make this do able.. Surely...

Only then can you be called a TRAINED VOLUNTEER..

Then after say 10 years experience with annual refresher Training can you become an EXPERT VOLUNTEER..

Sorry.. I have heard way too many (SO Called Weather Spotters give very BAD information and then call them selves Strom Chasers.. Yea right!

Not to mention the stories about TRAINED VOLUNTEERS who are nothing more then ambulance chasers...

73 Jerry N9LYA

kb9sxk

09-04-2007, 07:20 PM

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 04 2007,10:16)]Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 04 2007,09:23)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 04 2007,08:04)]Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 03 2007,21:52)]I Think that every FF should have Haz mat OPS . #

I think I was a bit misunderstood. #I am not a training snob at all. #I have no problem with expediant training for specific duties.
So i want to be sure I understand. #You are saying every FF should have Hazmat training whether they ever need it or not, it would be best for them to be ready anyhow?
I would feel safe saying that at some point (or many points) most FFs will come face to face with hazmat. #OPS teaches you to safe the situation until the techs get there.

No need for every ff to be an expert, but 16 hours is not too much to ask.
I noticed you're a no code test rule change upgrade. #Why did you not upgrade prior to this year?
#1 Lets not turn this in to a code / no code thing
#2 I have had a comercial ticket twice as long as i have been a ham
#3 CW give me migrains...literaly...all that incesant beeping.
#4 what has that got to do with hazmat and the fire service?

kb9sxk

09-04-2007, 07:25 PM

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 04 2007,10:14)]Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Sep. 04 2007,09:27)]Charlie --- surely YOU can handle 2 days of training.

The rest of us might can handle qrz while you are learning about hazmat situations.

just trying to help...!!

ai4ep (Robert) # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I have Operations level in Hazmat. #Also have 2500+ hours of training including:

FF I, II, III, and IV (FF I in two states)
Fire Officer I,II, III
Fire Admin I, II, III, IV
Fire Executive Management Certification from LSU
Certificates in Aircraft Crash Rescue, Highrise Rescue, Auto Extrication, Military Aircraft Rescue, Woodland Firefighting, Industrial Firefighting, Strategy and Tactics I-IV, EMT B, First Responder, Hazmat Operations level, Incident Command both the California Model and the Phoenix Model, Fire Instructor, SCBA Instructor, Fire Investigation, Arson Investigation, Aerial Firefighting Specialist, and more. #And I know people with twice this amount of training.

How about you?
With that resume, you should see my point.

Mine is posted in another thread

ab0wr

09-04-2007, 09:14 PM

Quote[/b] (ai3v @ Sep. 04 2007,10:47)]So let me get this straight,

My Employees, are going to tell me who I can have help in my hometown in the event of trouble?

Some of you boys have a very inflated sense of self-importaince,after watching your cluster f**c called katrina,well do allrite here without you and your "Training"

It never stops amazing me that our employees cant see this simple fact.

REMEMBER Boys, You work for us citizens at OUR PLEASURE,not the other way around.

Rege
Rege,

You hit the nail right on the head.

I think W5HTW has it right -- if I am in or near the disaster area I am going to render all the assistance I can. This could be from taking my neighbor off his rooftop in a flood to digging him out of his basement after a tornado to .... well, you name it.

If and when the professionals arrive and have the situation under control I will step back.

If and when the professionals arrive and it is obvious they do NOT have the situation under control then I will continue to render what assistance I can. That will be *MY* decision, not theirs and an ID card be damned.

If everyone taking relief to Mississippi and Louisiana had to have had an ID to get into the area, many more people *would* have died, no "probably" about it. From taking people off rooftops to providing water and food too much of the relief would have gone wanting.

Regardless of *anything* the professionals say about volunteers getting in the way, the citizenry will be the final arbiter. If the pro's do it right and do it well, so be it, just get out of the way. But sometimes there just aren't enough of them to go around, especially in a timely manner. And other times they just don't get it right or they just don't do it well. That's when its necessary to say "to heck with them" and do what you can.

tim ab0wr

n6yg

09-04-2007, 09:39 PM

Quote[/b] (KE4YGS @ Sep. 02 2007,23:48)]I agree with a lot that is said about the time line of things. I didn't really understand the original part of the thread and the time line it was addressing. Now that I do have a better understanding it makes more sense to me.

I suppose there are those whackers and blivots that would harm themselves and others rushing in to help. I have never seen this myself. I seem to have a bit higher opinion of John Q. Public than most "professionals" do.

I do however have a rather jaded view of infrastructure personnel and their abilities. It isn't up to me to do your job for you nor tell you how to do it, if and when you finally get to a scene. But, the attitude of certified only will sooner or later get someone killed or allow a victim/s to die while some bonafied fool waits for certified help. When I was an LEO I learned to make use of EVERYONE at a scene, even other victims.

A certificate is a MINIMUM standard and guarantees results and performance similar to the lowest buidder with NASA. Simply put, the best aren't always the perofessionals, cause the best simply can't afford to or will not work for what the "professionals" get paid. Again I'm not addressing specific people I am addressing infrastructure in general. In my opinion, it is poor at best and deadly at its worst.

Forums are a great place to talk like this but ya simply cant say it all at once. You, or I, simply can't know everything thats in my or your head all at once. Hence discussions get sidetracked with grandstanding, egos, and the search for who speaks from the strongest platform. It is a difficult discussion at best.

All the best guys http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Scotty
So that explains why some of the worst rescue attempts I have ever seen where performed by so called professionals.

By the way as a retired USCG licensed ships master (unlimited master mariners certificate)
I have received extensive training including fire fighting and rescue. I have watched highly trained firefighters blow themselves up simply practicing putting out small boat fires. If a ship I was in command of say a big vessel capable of carrying over a 1000 passengers was on fire the last thing I would want would be the local yokel fire brigade marching in and taking over.

I was watching an LA county fire demonstration where they lit a small 25 foot wooden boat on fire in order to demonstrated how to put it out. The problem was the guy lighting the fire blew himself up. The blast threw him at least 15 feet in the air and clear off the boat and into the water. Watching those highly trained professionals try and rescue one of there own was like watching a Laurel and Hardy sketch. My god they only had one victim in the water and one small burning boat and it completely overwhelmed them!! I would hate to think what would happen if they had a few 100 people in the water.

They where so preoccupied with the one victim that they left the burning boat unattended as it slowly drifted into a nearby dock, a dock with several million+ dollar vessels. If it was not for the actions of the Capt. of a small outboard auxiliary sailboat who single-handedly secured the burning vessel and towed it away from the docks the fire crews would have had a much larger fire to contend with.

Then there was the demo I watched at an airport where a fire fighter lit himself on fire and started a small grass fire by accident. They where doing a demo on how to use a fire extinguisher to put out a burning liquid. Typical demo they poured what appeared to be jet fuel into a large pan but could not get it to light so a highly trained buffoon decided to pour a little gas on it. Yup this was a highly trained firefighter who in the process did not realize that the last match he had tossed into the pan was still burring, long story short we got to see how effective the stop drop and roll was when you are covered in gas. It then took the fire crew an additional 15 or 20 min. to put out the grass fire that started as a result.

Yup seeing demonstrations such as this has done wonders for my confidence that first responders are well trained and ready to assist.

ai4ep

09-04-2007, 10:46 PM

AG4YO --- ( sorry about the slow response to your post on page 2, I do other things during the day besides sit and tap on qrz )

I have qualifications on NONE ( zero ) of the things you listed .

I have no dog in this race, not even one who sits UNDER the porch and barks !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

The rest of you can argue till the moon turns blue about this situation, but we all know that IN YOUR HEARTS you intend the best for every one should the situation arise .

So there aint any need for folks to tap out grouchy words to each other....in case any of you were planning such a stunt.

BE NICE

w4nti

09-05-2007, 12:41 AM

Quote[/b] (KC0OFZ @ Sep. 02 2007,12:52)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 02 2007,11:43)]Quote[/b] (kb7xu @ Sep. 02 2007,11:34)]There is a plan to limit/restrict/ban well-meaning but untrained volunteers from helping at disaster sites. #I wonder how this will affect ARES, RACES and those hams who are ARRL formally-trained communicators?

What will be the operational definition of "professionally trained."

I think at the least, the Section managers in California should be alerted to this. #See the following story dated 09-02-07 at

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20551051/
I think the solution could much like the Hazmat response Hot, Warm, and Cold zones. #Based on the disaster, only trained people in the hot zone, lightly trained in the warm zone and well meaning neophites in the cold zone. #Break up tasks related to support IC into where the participants need to be. #We may see a whole set of duties suitable for the cold zone where untrained volunteers could free up trained personnel for duty closer to the disaster.
Best idea I have heard so far. #Of course the whackers will disagree but that is life. #Untrained persons have NO place in the hot zone, HT radio or not.
Untrained...Unqualified http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif # Like in didn't take/pass the "standard" FEMA test?

I don't think those of us that did "EmComm" before you folks even had a ticket, or perhaps a gleam in the Daddy's eye, should be lumped into the "Untrained and Unqualified" group. #Guess what? #We did "EmComm" way back when we winged it. #And did a dang good job of it too.

Here in Alabama me and a few other untrained folks worked out a plan that eventually was used by SEVEN states for about Ten Years.

But recently I was told that I needed to take courses, and agree to back ground checks and they wanted to look at my band account.....Uh.....excuse me?

So you all have lost one heck of a good communicator...ME. #And a bunch of others.

Have fun re-inventing that wheel.

Dan/W4NTI

One more thing.....I think we hams have lost track of what it is we offer to the various agencies...That is COMMUNICATIONS and our ability to do that under most any condition.

Think about it.

KC0OFZ

09-05-2007, 12:46 AM

Quote[/b] (w4nti @ Sep. 04 2007,17:41)]Quote[/b] (KC0OFZ @ Sep. 02 2007,12:52)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 02 2007,11:43)]Quote[/b] (kb7xu @ Sep. 02 2007,11:34)]There is a plan to limit/restrict/ban well-meaning but untrained volunteers from helping at disaster sites. #I wonder how this will affect ARES, RACES and those hams who are ARRL formally-trained communicators?

What will be the operational definition of "professionally trained."

I think at the least, the Section managers in California should be alerted to this. #See the following story dated 09-02-07 at

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20551051/
I think the solution could much like the Hazmat response Hot, Warm, and Cold zones. #Based on the disaster, only trained people in the hot zone, lightly trained in the warm zone and well meaning neophites in the cold zone. #Break up tasks related to support IC into where the participants need to be. #We may see a whole set of duties suitable for the cold zone where untrained volunteers could free up trained personnel for duty closer to the disaster.
Best idea I have heard so far. #Of course the whackers will disagree but that is life. #Untrained persons have NO place in the hot zone, HT radio or not.
Untrained...Unqualified http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif # Like in didn't take/pass the "standard" FEMA test?

I don't think those of us that did "EmComm" before you folks even had a ticket, or perhaps a gleam in the Daddy's eye, should be lumped into the "Untrained and Unqualified" group. #Guess what? #We did "EmComm" way back when we winged it. #And did a dang good job of it too.

Here in Alabama me and a few other untrained folks worked out a plan that eventually was used by SEVEN states for about Ten Years.

But recently I was told that I needed to take courses, and agree to back ground checks and they wanted to look at my band account.....Uh.....excuse me?

So you all have lost one heck of a good communicator...ME. #And a bunch of others.

Have fun re-inventing that wheel.

Dan/W4NTI
Don't let the door hit you on the way out then...

w4nti

09-05-2007, 12:53 AM

Quote[/b] (KC0OFZ @ Sep. 04 2007,17:46)]Quote[/b] (w4nti @ Sep. 04 2007,17:41)]Quote[/b] (KC0OFZ @ Sep. 02 2007,12:52)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 02 2007,11:43)]Quote[/b] (kb7xu @ Sep. 02 2007,11:34)]There is a plan to limit/restrict/ban well-meaning but untrained volunteers from helping at disaster sites. #I wonder how this will affect ARES, RACES and those hams who are ARRL formally-trained communicators?

What will be the operational definition of "professionally trained."

I think at the least, the Section managers in California should be alerted to this. #See the following story dated 09-02-07 at

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20551051/
I think the solution could much like the Hazmat response Hot, Warm, and Cold zones. #Based on the disaster, only trained people in the hot zone, lightly trained in the warm zone and well meaning neophites in the cold zone. #Break up tasks related to support IC into where the participants need to be. #We may see a whole set of duties suitable for the cold zone where untrained volunteers could free up trained personnel for duty closer to the disaster.
Best idea I have heard so far. #Of course the whackers will disagree but that is life. #Untrained persons have NO place in the hot zone, HT radio or not.
Untrained...Unqualified http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif # Like in didn't take/pass the "standard" FEMA test?

I don't think those of us that did "EmComm" before you folks even had a ticket, or perhaps a gleam in the Daddy's eye, should be lumped into the "Untrained and Unqualified" group. #Guess what? #We did "EmComm" way back when we winged it. #And did a dang good job of it too.

Here in Alabama me and a few other untrained folks worked out a plan that eventually was used by SEVEN states for about Ten Years.

But recently I was told that I needed to take courses, and agree to back ground checks and they wanted to look at my band account.....Uh.....excuse me?

So you all have lost one heck of a good communicator...ME. #And a bunch of others.

Have fun re-inventing that wheel.

Dan/W4NTI
Don't let the door hit you on the way out then...
Poor misguided youngun that thinks he knows it all.
Good luck.

Dan/W4NTI

KC0OFZ

09-05-2007, 12:55 AM

Quote[/b] (n6yg @ Sep. 04 2007,14:39)]Quote[/b] (KE4YGS @ Sep. 02 2007,23:48)]I agree with a lot that is said about the time line of things. #I didn't really understand the original part of the thread and the time line it was addressing. #Now that I do have a better understanding it makes more sense to me.

I suppose there are those whackers and blivots that would harm themselves and others rushing in to help. #I have never seen this myself. #I seem to have a bit higher opinion of John Q. Public than most "professionals" do.

I do however have a rather jaded view of infrastructure personnel and their abilities. #It isn't up to me to do your job for you nor tell you how to do it, if and when you finally get to a scene. #But, the attitude of certified only will sooner or later get someone killed or allow a victim/s to die while some bonafied fool waits for certified help. #When I was an LEO I learned to make use of EVERYONE at a scene, even other victims.

A certificate is a MINIMUM standard and guarantees results and performance similar to the lowest buidder with NASA. #Simply put, the best aren't always the perofessionals, cause the best simply can't afford to or will not work for what the "professionals" get paid. #Again I'm not addressing specific people I am addressing infrastructure in general. #In my opinion, it is poor at best and deadly at its worst.

Forums are a great place to talk like this but ya simply cant say it all at once. #You, or I, simply can't know everything thats in my or your head all at once. #Hence discussions get sidetracked with grandstanding, egos, and the search for who speaks from the strongest platform. #It is a difficult discussion at best.

All the best guys http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Scotty
So that explains why some of the worst rescue attempts I have ever seen where performed by so called professionals.

By the way as a retired USCG licensed ships master (unlimited master mariners certificate)
I have received extensive training including fire fighting and rescue. #I have watched highly trained firefighters blow themselves up simply practicing putting out small boat fires. If a ship I was in command of say a big vessel capable of carrying over a 1000 passengers was on fire the last thing I would want would be the local yokel fire brigade marching in and taking over.

I was watching an LA county fire demonstration where they lit a small 25 foot wooden boat on fire in order to #demonstrated how to put it out. The problem was the guy lighting the fire blew himself up. The blast threw him at least 15 feet in the air and clear off the boat and into the water. Watching those highly trained professionals try and rescue one of there own was like watching a Laurel and Hardy sketch. My god they only had one victim in the water and one small burning boat and it completely overwhelmed them!! #I would hate to think what would happen #if they had a few 100 people in the water.

They where so preoccupied with the one victim that they left the burning boat unattended as it slowly drifted into a nearby dock, a dock with several million+ dollar vessels. If it was not for the actions of the Capt. of a small outboard auxiliary sailboat who single-handedly secured the burning vessel and towed it away from the docks the fire crews would have had a much larger fire to contend with. #

Then there was the demo I watched at an airport where a fire fighter lit himself on fire and started a small grass fire by accident. They where doing a demo on how to use a fire extinguisher to put out a burning liquid. Typical demo they poured what appeared to be jet fuel into a large pan but could not get it to light so a highly trained buffoon decided to pour a little gas on it. Yup this was a highly trained firefighter who in the process did not realize that the last match he had tossed into the pan was still burring, long story short we got to see how effective the stop drop and roll was when you are covered in gas. It then took the fire crew an additional 15 or 20 min. to put out the grass fire that started as a result.

Yup seeing demonstrations such as this has done wonders for my confidence that first responders are well trained and ready to assist.
You know what? You are exactly right. We need to eliminate all "trained" persons and put you in charge. I am sure you would NEVER make any mistakes and can do better in every situation. Are there dolt pros out there? OF COURSE!!, this is no suprise to me or anyone. Now, tell me if you can, a few exmples of a "trained" person doing it right. Can you do that or are so so absorbed in yourself and your hate toward trained individuals that you simply will not?

KC0OFZ

09-05-2007, 12:58 AM

Quote[/b] (w4nti @ Sep. 04 2007,17:53)]Quote[/b] (KC0OFZ @ Sep. 04 2007,17:46)]Quote[/b] (w4nti @ Sep. 04 2007,17:41)]Quote[/b] (KC0OFZ @ Sep. 02 2007,12:52)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 02 2007,11:43)]Quote[/b] (kb7xu @ Sep. 02 2007,11:34)]There is a plan to limit/restrict/ban well-meaning but untrained volunteers from helping at disaster sites. #I wonder how this will affect ARES, RACES and those hams who are ARRL formally-trained communicators?

What will be the operational definition of "professionally trained."

I think at the least, the Section managers in California should be alerted to this. #See the following story dated 09-02-07 at

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20551051/
I think the solution could much like the Hazmat response Hot, Warm, and Cold zones. #Based on the disaster, only trained people in the hot zone, lightly trained in the warm zone and well meaning neophites in the cold zone. #Break up tasks related to support IC into where the participants need to be. #We may see a whole set of duties suitable for the cold zone where untrained volunteers could free up trained personnel for duty closer to the disaster.
Best idea I have heard so far. #Of course the whackers will disagree but that is life. #Untrained persons have NO place in the hot zone, HT radio or not.
Untrained...Unqualified http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif # Like in didn't take/pass the "standard" FEMA test?

I don't think those of us that did "EmComm" before you folks even had a ticket, or perhaps a gleam in the Daddy's eye, should be lumped into the "Untrained and Unqualified" group. #Guess what? #We did "EmComm" way back when we winged it. #And did a dang good job of it too.

Here in Alabama me and a few other untrained folks worked out a plan that eventually was used by SEVEN states for about Ten Years.

But recently I was told that I needed to take courses, and agree to back ground checks and they wanted to look at my band account.....Uh.....excuse me?

So you all have lost one heck of a good communicator...ME. #And a bunch of others.

Have fun re-inventing that wheel.

Dan/W4NTI
Don't let the door hit you on the way out then...
Poor misguided youngun that things he knows it all.
Good luck.

Dan/W4NTI
As I said, just watch that door. Unlike you, I do know my abilities and limitations. Thanks anyway big man!! Sorry not to worship you but hey, thats life!!

ky5u

09-05-2007, 03:06 AM

Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 04 2007,12:20)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 04 2007,10:16)]Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 04 2007,09:23)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 04 2007,08:04)]Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 03 2007,21:52)]I Think that every FF should have Haz mat OPS .

I think I was a bit misunderstood. I am not a training snob at all. I have no problem with expediant training for specific duties.
So i want to be sure I understand. You are saying every FF should have Hazmat training whether they ever need it or not, it would be best for them to be ready anyhow?
I would feel safe saying that at some point (or many points) most FFs will come face to face with hazmat. OPS teaches you to safe the situation until the techs get there.

No need for every ff to be an expert, but 16 hours is not too much to ask.
I noticed you're a no code test rule change upgrade. Why did you not upgrade prior to this year?
#1 Lets not turn this in to a code / no code thing
#2 I have had a comercial ticket twice as long as i have been a ham
#3 CW give me migrains...literaly...all that incesant beeping.
#4 what has that got to do with hazmat and the fire service?
Just making a point for you to think about. You think FF should have hazmat even though they may never use it, yet you saw issues with learning CW. Maybe hazmat training gives FF migrains too. Like you I don't care to make this a code thread, but think about what I am suggesting to you. You'll be a better Director if you walk the talk. Thanks.

ky5u

09-05-2007, 03:09 AM

Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 04 2007,12:25)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 04 2007,10:14)]Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Sep. 04 2007,09:27)]Charlie --- surely YOU can handle 2 days of training.

The rest of us might can handle qrz while you are learning about hazmat situations.

just trying to help...!!

ai4ep (Robert) http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I have Operations level in Hazmat. Also have 2500+ hours of training including:

FF I, II, III, and IV (FF I in two states)
Fire Officer I,II, III
Fire Admin I, II, III, IV
Fire Executive Management Certification from LSU
Certificates in Aircraft Crash Rescue, Highrise Rescue, Auto Extrication, Military Aircraft Rescue, Woodland Firefighting, Industrial Firefighting, Strategy and Tactics I-IV, EMT B, First Responder, Hazmat Operations level, Incident Command both the California Model and the Phoenix Model, Fire Instructor, SCBA Instructor, Fire Investigation, Arson Investigation, Aerial Firefighting Specialist, and more. And I know people with twice this amount of training.

How about you?
With that resume, you should see my point.

Mine is posted in another thread
Oh I agree with you.

ai4ep

09-05-2007, 03:39 AM

CHARLIE has some really good points which should NOT be overlooked in his last 2 posts ( right above mine here ) .

-----------------------------

On another level, some of you seem to want to keep the " low life " out of a disaster scene...yet that same LOW LIFE is what keeps some of you folks from having to do what the LOW LIFE folks are currently doing.

I aint sure I put things in the right perspective, but with your abilities to actually think you CAN understand what I am trying to say.

Why make the peons get all the necessary paperwork done just to be able to go get the big shots a fresh cup of coffee and a twinkie bar ...even at a disaster scene ?

AE6IP

09-05-2007, 04:09 AM

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 04 2007,19:06)]You think FF should have hazmat even though they may never use it, yet you saw issues with learning CW.
Terrible analogy. Amateur radio's a hobby and there's very little chance that an amateur not knowing Morse code is going to matter in any meaningful way. Fire fighting is a profession and there's a very good chance that any given fire fighter is going to encounter hazmat situations in their career.

kb9sxk

09-05-2007, 04:38 AM

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 04 2007,20:06)]Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 04 2007,12:20)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 04 2007,10:16)]Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 04 2007,09:23)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 04 2007,08:04)]Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 03 2007,21:52)]I Think that every FF should have Haz mat OPS . #

I think I was a bit misunderstood. #I am not a training snob at all. #I have no problem with expediant training for specific duties.
So i want to be sure I understand. #You are saying every FF should have Hazmat training whether they ever need it or not, it would be best for them to be ready anyhow?
I would feel safe saying that at some point (or many points) most FFs will come face to face with hazmat. #OPS teaches you to safe the situation until the techs get there.

No need for every ff to be an expert, but 16 hours is not too much to ask.
I noticed you're a no code test rule change upgrade. #Why did you not upgrade prior to this year?
#1 Lets not turn this in to a code / no code thing
#2 I have had a comercial ticket twice as long as i have been a ham
#3 CW give me migrains...literaly...all that incesant beeping.
#4 what has that got to do with hazmat and the fire service?
Just making a point for you to think about. #You think FF should have hazmat even though they may never use it, yet you saw issues with learning CW. #Maybe hazmat training gives FF migrains too. #Like you I don't care to make this a code thread, but think about what I am suggesting to you. You'll be a better Director if you walk the talk. Thanks.
Who said I did not learn code? I never took a test because i did not care. I could save my life with CW (Not that it would be an issue)

What the hell does that have with public safety mgt?

If you dont want to do hazmat, dont. But accept that you may not be able to be a ff then. I chose not to test out for code. I paid the price and did not have hf priv. Now I do.

Leave the personal jabs at home.

KB3LXF

09-05-2007, 04:47 AM

I like the idea of the hot zones, I can clearly see a marked line for each group. I know, as a firefighter, that alot of citizens/untrained folks mean well, but can end up doing alot of harm. In your twice-weekly drills, if we emulate a scenario, we like to put a completely untrained, or exceedingly well-trained person into "Angry Mother Mode" where they basically run around screaming for help for the victims, and get in the way. It's a bit of fun to make the probies make fools of themselves, as well as teaching us how to deal with these people.

Something I think is likely to happen in my county: Hams would fall into the Green/Yellow (cold/warm) zones, and I think getting into the warm zone is only likely in chance of fireboard/fire radios not working. Even in that situation, only 1 or 2 hams would be allowed on-scene, or in the "red" zone, to relay communications for the command there.

Of course, in a more non-disaster environment (say a power-outage), Hams could set up there own area to work out of, and have it work however they need to provide communications.

Am I off-base here? I've never worked with hams on an emergency.

ky5u

09-05-2007, 03:50 PM

Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 04 2007,21:38)]If you dont want to do hazmat, dont. But accept that you may not be able to be a ff then. I chose not to test out for code. I paid the price and did not have hf priv. Now I do.

Leave the personal jabs at home.
You obviously see my point based on your answer. When you make statements like: Quote[/b] ]Any volunteer I let on to a scene or request to help will be trained and nims compliant. Period. Ham, medic, or fire fighter. That is all.Be sure to evaluate your own record for walking the talk. Had the FCC taken that tack, you'd still be "QSL"ing on repeaters. The statement is not meant as a personal "attack" but an observation based on your strictness with others.

kl7aj

09-05-2007, 03:52 PM

This horrifies me....it might actually force a lot of hams to do actual amateur radio instead of wacking!

Eric

kb9sxk

09-05-2007, 08:45 PM

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 05 2007,08:50)]Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 04 2007,21:38)]If you dont want to do hazmat, dont. But accept that you may not be able to be a ff then. #I chose not to test out for code. #I paid the price and did not have hf priv. #Now I do.

Leave the personal jabs at home.
You obviously see my point based on your answer. When you make statements like: Quote[/b] ]Any volunteer I let on to a scene or request to help will be trained and nims compliant. #Period. Ham, medic, or fire fighter. That is all.Be sure to evaluate your own record for walking the talk. Had the FCC taken that tack, you'd still be "QSL"ing on repeaters. The statement is not meant as a personal "attack" but an observation based on your strictness with others.
I dont see it as stricness. #I see it a responsibility. #I would not ask any person do anything that they are not prepared to. I will not ask any person to do something I am not willing to do.

I am no better or worse a radio op on HF because I dont do CW.

I passed the same writen test that was in place the day before i upgraded.

If we agree, then why the F are we arguing? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

ky5u

09-06-2007, 03:08 PM

Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 05 2007,13:45)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 05 2007,08:50)]Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 04 2007,21:38)]If you dont want to do hazmat, dont. But accept that you may not be able to be a ff then. I chose not to test out for code. I paid the price and did not have hf priv. Now I do.

Leave the personal jabs at home.
You obviously see my point based on your answer. When you make statements like: Quote[/b] ]Any volunteer I let on to a scene or request to help will be trained and nims compliant. Period. Ham, medic, or fire fighter. That is all.Be sure to evaluate your own record for walking the talk. Had the FCC taken that tack, you'd still be "QSL"ing on repeaters. The statement is not meant as a personal "attack" but an observation based on your strictness with others.
I dont see it as stricness. I see it a responsibility. I would not ask any person do anything that they are not prepared to. I will not ask any person to do something I am not willing to do.

I am no better or worse a radio op on HF because I dont do CW.

I passed the same writen test that was in place the day before i upgraded.

If we agree, then why the F are we arguing? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
...and I was not asking you to do anything I have not done. It was my responsibility to do so. My point was that you should hold yourself in AR to the same high standard you demand of others in all other aspects of your life. It was an illumination concerning your statements in the original post and suggestion for improvement that you obviously don't agree with.

ab0wr

09-06-2007, 04:09 PM

Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 05 2007,13:45)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 05 2007,08:50)]Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 04 2007,21:38)]If you dont want to do hazmat, dont. But accept that you may not be able to be a ff then. I chose not to test out for code. I paid the price and did not have hf priv. Now I do.

Leave the personal jabs at home.
You obviously see my point based on your answer. When you make statements like: Quote[/b] ]Any volunteer I let on to a scene or request to help will be trained and nims compliant. Period. Ham, medic, or fire fighter. That is all.Be sure to evaluate your own record for walking the talk. Had the FCC taken that tack, you'd still be "QSL"ing on repeaters. The statement is not meant as a personal "attack" but an observation based on your strictness with others.
I dont see it as stricness. I see it a responsibility. I would not ask any person do anything that they are not prepared to. I will not ask any person to do something I am not willing to do.

I am no better or worse a radio op on HF because I dont do CW.

I passed the same writen test that was in place the day before i upgraded.

If we agree, then why the F are we arguing? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Sure you are a worse op. Around 30% of the communications that hams indulge in are off-limits to you, by your own personal choice.

Passing a license test doesn't make you a good op, that's more true today than it has ever been in the past.

If you want to say you are a good *voice* op, have at it.

If you want to say you are a good *digital* op, have at it.

But don't say you are as good of an op as someone that can do all modes, especially one as prevalent as CW.

I'm sorry if that is brutally honest, but it is EXACTLY what you are saying about untrained citizens, or even professionals without every qualification that anyone/anywhere offers.

tim ab0wr

AE6IP

09-06-2007, 04:17 PM

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 06 2007,08:08)]My point was that you should hold yourself in AR to the same high standard you demand of others in all other aspects of your life.
Because, after all, we should take our hobbies with the same level of seriousness that we take our life-risking jobs.

My personal high standard for each of my hobbies is: am i having fun, yet?

To demand any more, especially to demand it of others, is outrageous.

kl7aj

09-06-2007, 05:03 PM

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Sep. 06 2007,09:17)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 06 2007,08:08)]My point was that you should hold yourself in AR to the same high standard you demand of others in all other aspects of your life.
Because, after all, we should take our hobbies with the same level of seriousness that we take our life-risking jobs.

My personal high standard for each of my hobbies is: am i having fun, yet?

To demand any more, especially to demand it of others, is outrageous.
Yip.....precisely.

It's called AMATEUR radio...from the same root word as AMOR=Love. If we no longer love it....when it becomes a JOB....is when I bail out.

eric

K0RGR

09-06-2007, 05:17 PM

I agree with HTW's distinction between those who are in a disaster scene, and those rushing to it.

I believe ham radio's main role in most disasters is in the opening hours of a disaster, when replacements are needed for lost communications capabilites. This only rarely involves the need for hams to be in the immediate 'hot zone'. They DO need to be at nearby shelters and government facilites WHEN REQUESTED. Once the million dollar comm trucks and portable cell towers come on line, the hams need to go on about their own business, and get out of the way, unless they are trained to sling hash and drive a Red Cross truck, like I am.

However, I am disturbed by the feeling of most professionals that John Q. Public is incapable of helping and is at worst a complication. I think the "whacker" is more of a cartoon character - a stereotype that's developed over the years. Kind of like the bumbling, overbearing, Barney Fife image of the professionals.

I think it is high treason for hams to advance this stereotype. I'm going to start calling those of you who complain about whackers "Uncle Tom".Hams should be recognized for their abilities in disasters. The only credentials we used to need were call letter license plates - that's why they issue them! I firmly believe that ARES needs to be issuing its own common identification, based on successful completion of whatever recognized training the bearer has.

When I was young, there was a law in California that if you were driving through the mountains, you were required to carry a shovel and a bucket in your car, in case you were needed to fight forest fires. With the current "let George do it" attitude, how long will it be before they repeal the laws in North Dakota and Minnesota that make it ilegal to leave someone stranded in their car in the wintertime?

ky5u

09-06-2007, 07:50 PM

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Sep. 06 2007,09:17)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 06 2007,08:08)]My point was that you should hold yourself in AR to the same high standard you demand of others in all other aspects of your life.
Because, after all, we should take our hobbies with the same level of seriousness that we take our life-risking jobs.

My personal high standard for each of my hobbies is: am i having fun, yet?

To demand any more, especially to demand it of others, is outrageous.
Yep, and if firefighting and med response personnel are volunteers, aka a hobby, then they should not be held to standards. After all it is just a hobby. ROFL!

kb9sxk

09-06-2007, 08:45 PM

I can work CW if I choose to. #I dont wish to torture a fellow ham by forcing him to endure a QSO with me. #But If I had the itch to work CW, I could (Badly). #No test needed.

I am not limited in my ability in ham radio, only my income.

wz9o

09-07-2007, 12:28 AM

Topic: There is a plan to limit/restrict/ban volunteers

Good! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

ai4ep

09-07-2007, 12:46 AM

a valid point.

if you make it too tough, there will BE no volunteers.

So be careful of what you ask for, you may just get exactly what you specify, and eliminate most of your own local assistance.

Guess who does the "menial tasks " then...it might be YOU ( mister big shot ) .

---remember that if and when a peon gets upset that he is free to leave the scene, and no one can say a smart remark about it....YOU ( mister big shot ) might just have to take his place (oops) http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

AE6IP

09-07-2007, 06:53 AM

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 06 2007,12:50)]Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Sep. 06 2007,09:17)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 06 2007,08:08)]My point was that you should hold yourself in AR to the same high standard you demand of others in all other aspects of your life.
Because, after all, we should take our hobbies with the same level of seriousness that we take our life-risking jobs.

My personal high standard for each of my hobbies is: am i having fun, yet?

To demand any more, especially to demand it of others, is outrageous.
Yep, and if firefighting and med response personnel are volunteers, aka a hobby, then they should not be held to standards. After all it is just a hobby. ROFL!
You really need to work on your sense of perspective if you still can't tell the difference between amateur radio and volunteer fire fighting.

But then, you're confusing volunteer service with hobby, so it's no surprise you're having difficulty with perspective.

N5PVL

09-07-2007, 11:15 AM

In a general sense, entirely too many amateurs have trouble 'shifting gears' between the job and the hobby.

ky5u

09-07-2007, 12:50 PM

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Sep. 06 2007,23:53)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 06 2007,12:50)]Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Sep. 06 2007,09:17)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 06 2007,08:08)]My point was that you should hold yourself in AR to the same high standard you demand of others in all other aspects of your life.
Because, after all, we should take our hobbies with the same level of seriousness that we take our life-risking jobs.

My personal high standard for each of my hobbies is: am i having fun, yet?

To demand any more, especially to demand it of others, is outrageous.
Yep, and if firefighting and med response personnel are volunteers, aka a hobby, then they should not be held to standards. After all it is just a hobby. ROFL!
You really need to work on your sense of perspective if you still can't tell the difference between amateur radio and volunteer fire fighting.

But then, you're confusing volunteer service with hobby, so it's no surprise you're having difficulty with perspective.
No problem with perspective here, oh great Khan, yours is the superior intellect! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

N8ODF

09-07-2007, 01:12 PM

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 05 2007,08:50)]Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 04 2007,21:38)]If you dont want to do hazmat, dont. But accept that you may not be able to be a ff then. #I chose not to test out for code. #I paid the price and did not have hf priv. #Now I do.

Leave the personal jabs at home.
You obviously see my point based on your answer. When you make statements like: Quote[/b] ]Any volunteer I let on to a scene or request to help will be trained and nims compliant. #Period. Ham, medic, or fire fighter. That is all.Be sure to evaluate your own record for walking the talk. Had the FCC taken that tack, you'd still be "QSL"ing on repeaters. The statement is not meant as a personal "attack" but an observation based on your strictness with others.
It is absolutely delusional to judge & berate fellow operators solely on there knowledge of CW. It is clear that 4YO's inexperience in Amateur Radio, just being licensed in 2/03 contributes to his ignorance. Hard to believe someone could be such an expert in all aspects in 4 short years...A legend in his own mind kind of mentality. Sideband operations on 6M, VHF, & UHF are quite formidable challenges & yes you can QSL contacts on these bands. QSL's are not just limited to CW contacts. Charlie...did you know that monkeys can learn CW...one has to wonder how empty your life was prior to learning CW & attaining your ticket on 2/24/03...I guess your so