View Full Version : Amateur Radio after Incentive Licensing
AE6IP
08-31-2007, 04:17 AM
Here is a simple idea, inspired by Heath in another thread, that I suspect would do far more for amateur radio than any changes to the FCC licensing structure would.
The National Model Railroad Association (NMRA) is the model railroading hobby's equivalent of the ARRL. Unlike amateur radio, model railroading doesn't have anything like incentive licensing, so the NMRA invented the achievement program (http://www.nmra.org/achievement/) as a means for those who wish to challenge themselves to grow in the hobby.
I propose that those of you who wish for a return to a time when "extra" meant something special would be better served to put together a proposal for the ARRL to undertake such a program geared towards Amateur Radio.
It would
Give you something constructive to do on the topic
Institute a way for those who wish to measure their achievement to do so
Create a "master ham" class which recognized that achievement
not get caught caught up in the FCC's regulatory machine
and give the ARRL another positive contribution to make to the hobby.
What say you? Care enough for your position to back it up by designing a proposal for the ARRL achievement program and working with the ARRL to make it a reality?
Overachievers: Roll up your sleeves and get started!
K7JEM
08-31-2007, 04:33 AM
I like it.
WA9SVD
08-31-2007, 04:52 AM
Interesting concept, but I fear the ARRL would reject it outright as "NIH." (Not Invented Here.) Or they would turn it into a profit making venture.
Why don't you check SPAR's web page and see what the latest thing is that they have going ?
http://www.spar-hams.org/index.php?pg=1
They might be interested in your input !
73, Jim
It seems to me that all of these types of awards are to show other people how good you are. Take for example the ARRL's Code Proficiency program. Copy their transmissions at a certain speed then pay them $10 for a certificate that says you did it. And then you can give them $7.50 more each time you copy a higher speed transmission up to 40 WPM.
Why would I need to pay someone for a certificate when my logbook is already filled with thousands of CW QSOs at speeds up to and over 40 WPM? (As Ozzie Smith, retired shortstop for the St. Louis Cardinals used to say, "It ain't bragging if you can really do it!") The number of entries in my logbook is the only real measure of achievement I need. Someone please tell me why I need to prove anything to anyone else?
Certificate? I don't need no stinkin' certificate!
And now you want to create a "Master Ham" class based on how many "merit badges" one earns? One of the biggest complaints I have seen with amateur radio today is the division of the classes of operator based on license class and now you want to add one more that shows other people just how special you are and how much you know? This does nothing to unify the amateur radio community, it only serves to deepen the divide.
No thanks, count me out!
Scott NĜIU
K7JEM
08-31-2007, 07:01 AM
Slacker
WA9SVD
08-31-2007, 12:47 PM
Maybe we should also do away with academic degrees, by that reasoning. After all, a Ph.D. is going to (expected to) know more than a person with a B.S. or B.A. But that just deepens the divide amoungst students. Just call everyone a "graduate."
When universities start offering a Ph.D. by answering a few multiple guess questions from a published test pool, then I agree that we should do away with academic degrees!
Scott NĜIU
N8UZE
08-31-2007, 01:27 PM
Quote[/b] (n0iu @ Aug. 31 2007,02:13)]It seems to me that all of these types of awards are to show other people how good you are. Take for example the ARRL's Code Proficiency program. Copy their transmissions at a certain speed then pay them $10 for a certificate that says you did it. And then you can give them $7.50 more each time you copy a higher speed transmission up to 40 WPM.
Well I did the code proficiency certificates for 10wpm and 15wpm but it was not to prove anything to others. It was to prove to myself that I could do it.
When I took and passed the 5wpm and 13wpm tests, I was dissatisfied with my performance on those tests. There was nothing approaching solid copy on them. However, I am very good a using logic to come up with answers when something is missing. For example, on one of my tests, I copied a blank then W and bunch of blanks. Since it followed QTH (which I did copy), I deduced that the answer was probably either Switzerland or Swaziland. I guessed the first one as it is more likely and got it correct. Each test I passed with 7 out of 10 right but those 7 always had one or more items that I used logic to deduce and make a guess based on probability.
So I worked towards the certificates to prove to myself that I could get a good copy on code.
Later when I took the 20wpm test, I also had the same issue (poor copy but good guessing). However by then I knew that I could get good copy if I continued working on it so didn't go for higher level certificates. And I was having too much fun chasing DX in the Extra portions of both the CW and phone segments so I lost interest in the proficiency certificates.
WA9SVD
08-31-2007, 01:37 PM
Quote[/b] (N8UZE @ Aug. 31 2007,06:27)]Quote[/b] (n0iu @ Aug. 31 2007,02:13)]It seems to me that all of these types of awards are to show other people how good you are. Take for example the ARRL's Code Proficiency program. Copy their transmissions at a certain speed then pay them $10 for a certificate that says you did it. And then you can give them $7.50 more each time you copy a higher speed transmission up to 40 WPM.
Well I did the code proficiency certificates for 10wpm and 15wpm but it was not to prove anything to others. It was to prove to myself that I could do it.
When I took and passed the 5wpm and 13wpm tests, I was dissatisfied with my performance on those tests. There was nothing approaching solid copy on them. However, I am very good a using logic to come up with answers when something is missing. For example, on one of my tests, I copied a blank then W and bunch of blanks. Since it followed QTH (which I did copy), I deduced that the answer was probably either Switzerland or Swaziland. I guessed the first one as it is more likely and got it correct. Each test I passed with 7 out of 10 right but those 7 always had one or more items that I used logic to deduce and make a guess based on probability.
So I worked towards the certificates to prove to myself that I could get a good copy on code.
Later when I took the 20wpm test, I also had the same issue (poor copy but good guessing). However by then I knew that I could get good copy if I continued working on it so didn't go for higher level certificates. And I was having too much fun chasing DX in the Extra portions of both the CW and phone segments so I lost interest in the proficiency certificates.
Then again, you don't need a piece of paper from the ARRL Proficiency program to prove to yourself that your code is improving in speed and accuracy.
Technical knowledge and proficiency, on the other hand, is a bit harder to verify.
N8UZE
08-31-2007, 01:51 PM
Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ Aug. 31 2007,09:37)]Quote[/b] (N8UZE @ Aug. 31 2007,06:27)]Quote[/b] (n0iu @ Aug. 31 2007,02:13)]It seems to me that all of these types of awards are to show other people how good you are. Take for example the ARRL's Code Proficiency program. Copy their transmissions at a certain speed then pay them $10 for a certificate that says you did it. And then you can give them $7.50 more each time you copy a higher speed transmission up to 40 WPM.
Well I did the code proficiency certificates for 10wpm and 15wpm but it was not to prove anything to others. #It was to prove to myself that I could do it.
When I took and passed the 5wpm and 13wpm tests, I was dissatisfied with my performance on those tests. #There was nothing approaching solid copy on them. #However, I am very good a using logic to come up with answers when something is missing. #For example, on one of my tests, I copied a blank then W and bunch of blanks. #Since it followed QTH (which I did copy), I deduced that the answer was probably either Switzerland or Swaziland. #I guessed the first one as it is more likely and got it correct. # Each test I passed with 7 out of 10 right but those 7 always had one or more items that I used logic to deduce and make a guess based on probability.
So I worked towards the certificates to prove to myself that I could get a good copy on code.
Later when I took the 20wpm test, I also had the same issue (poor copy but good guessing). #However by then I knew that I could get good copy if I continued working on it so didn't go for higher level certificates. #And I was having too much fun chasing DX in the Extra portions of both the CW and phone segments so I lost interest in the proficiency certificates.
Then again, you don't need a piece of paper from the ARRL Proficiency program to prove to yourself that your code is improving in speed and accuracy.
#Technical knowledge and proficiency, on the other hand, is a bit harder to verify.
True enough about not really needing the certificate. However it made me feel good. My point is that I did it for myself not for anyone else and not for "bragging rights".
I'm looking forward to the CW QSO's where I send "rig is homebrew" http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Soon I'll get so send "rig is K1 kit" which is almost as good.
The ARRL qualifying runs are nice, I hope to get a certificate for 20 wpm one of these days.
73 de Joe NE3R
KE5FRF
08-31-2007, 02:23 PM
Quote[/b] (n0iu @ Aug. 31 2007,01:13)]It seems to me that all of these types of awards are to show other people how good you are. Take for example the ARRL's Code Proficiency program. Copy their transmissions at a certain speed then pay them $10 for a certificate that says you did it. And then you can give them $7.50 more each time you copy a higher speed transmission up to 40 WPM.
Why would I need to pay someone for a certificate when my logbook is already filled with thousands of CW QSOs at speeds up to and over 40 WPM? (As Ozzie Smith, retired shortstop for the St. Louis Cardinals used to say, "It ain't bragging if you can really do it!") The number of entries in my logbook is the only real measure of achievement I need. Someone please tell me why I need to prove anything to anyone else?
Certificate? I don't need no stinkin' certificate!
And now you want to create a "Master Ham" class based on how many "merit badges" one earns? One of the biggest complaints I have seen with amateur radio today is the division of the classes of operator based on license class and now you want to add one more that shows other people just how special you are and how much you know? This does nothing to unify the amateur radio community, it only serves to deepen the divide.
No thanks, count me out!
Scott NĜIU
Scott,
I like Marty's idea and I may indeed write up some sort of proposal.
But here is the thing. I made this "suggestion" in lieu of the inevitability that there will no longer be a true incentive license structure in amateur radio's future some time down the road. We all know that a one or two license class service is ultimately AR's "destiny".
My opinion is that it would be a good thing...and as you said, the "caste system" would end. I still believe an entry level license with power limits is appropriate, but the dividing line would not be frequency privelages or band limitations. This "general privelage" license would be reasonably easy to get. A test on the very basics of electronics and regulatory and safety topics. Maybe a few RF principals like SWR, loss, gain, wavelength/frequency relationship, basic definitions of DC and AC, etc. Nothing a 6th grader couldn't learn in a couple of evenings....The entry level license would be a little easier and completely a test on regulations and RF safety. Again, a test that a 6th grader would have no trouble with. It would be like the old Novice concept. Two years with these privelages and within a couple of years you have to pass the General test or lose your privelages altogether. I might add that you have to be licensed AT LEAST a year in the entry level before eligibility to advance to give you some experience.
This way, for all legal purposes, every amateur would have the same basic privelages...all bands open to them. Only a power limit to the entry licensee. Hardly something to complain about. And a reasonably easy oportunity to obtain full license privelages in a year's time. In fact, a REQUIREMENT within two years so that there is no room for complaint. The ball is in the court of the licensee. Make or break. If you get "broke", you have no one to blame but yourself and you are no longer around to gripe and moan.
Now, with this reasonably easy system, there will be no true caste system. There will be a recognition that some are novices, but this will be shortlived anyway.
And to the proposal Marty and I discussed....This would be a merit system that is independant of license testing and structure. removing the privelage incentive makes "merits" purely an educational and personal achievement thing. After all, any endorsements or notations on my license that indicate particular skills and achievements do not reflect on my privelages in any way.
We already have a system where just about anyone can get full privelages by simply memorizing test questions. Our present "incentive license" structure is a sham. This is not to say that many Extras, Advanced, and Generals (even Techs)are not deserving or knowledgeable. Not at ALL! But what it means is that the intended purpose of encouraging knowledge and achievement has been undermined by published pools. Knowledge and skill are no longer reflected by license class...as we see Extras asking how to make dipoles and Technicians giving the answer!
If the ARRL worked with the FCC to establish an educational program...textbooks published by the ARRL along with test materials, heck, even online tests, where amateurs can continuously seek to advance their own knowledge...how can this be a bad thing? This isn't a diploma, it isn't a substitute for a degree. It is simply a personal thing for people who enjoy challenging themselves with "book learnin' ". Even a CW test could be adminsitered by volunteers.
And the FCC could "endorse" a database adminstered by the ARRL of license "merits". Just annotations with your callsign to show the level of achievement of knowledge that you have succeeded at being tested on. Again, no license privelages pivoting on this. Purely for personal gain. And yes, perhaps there would be some sense of pride or "bragging rights", but I believe it would be far less relevant on the bands because privelages would not hinge on them. And there would be cheaters too. People would skirt the system. But we already have that too, so no changes. And in such a voluntary system, the only one being cheated is the one who cheats himself.
This accomodates both appliance operators and achievers. It permits this hobby to be one of learning for those who wish it to be and one of yakking for those who don't. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
A win-win.
But of course, it'll never happen. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
K7JEM
08-31-2007, 05:01 PM
I mostly agree with you Heath.
The only point I would disagree is the non-renewable part. We don't want to throw anyone out of the hobby, if they are satisfied with their privs. It makes no sense.
We are not going to be overrun with new applicants, so there is no need to limit their term on any level. If they like their freq allocation, and are content with power and other restrictions, then I see no reason why they couldn't stay forever.
The FCC has already decided this issue, decades ago, when the novice was made renewable. It hurts no-one to have these people there. If they want full privs, then they will upgrade.
Joe
Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 31 2007,02:23)]And to the proposal Marty and I discussed....This would be a merit system that is independant of license testing and structure. removing the privelage incentive makes "merits" purely an educational and personal achievement thing. After all, any endorsements or notations on my license that indicate particular skills and achievements do not reflect on my privelages in any way.
If the ARRL worked with the FCC to establish an educational program...textbooks published by the ARRL along with test materials, heck, even online tests, where amateurs can continuously seek to advance their own knowledge...how can this be a bad thing? This isn't a diploma, it isn't a substitute for a degree. It is simply a personal thing for people who enjoy challenging themselves with "book learnin' ". Even a CW test could be adminsitered by volunteers.
But of course, it'll never happen. # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
You say it will never happen. With all due respect Heath, it sounds like you are reinventing the wheel. It already is happening and has been happening since 2002. The ARRL already has a program in place that is geared towards people who want to go beyond the license study guides and focus on specific aspects of amateur radio. For some people, education for its own sake is its own reward.
So what is the difference between what you are proposing and what the ARRL is offering with their Certification and Continuing Education (C-CE) program? The details can be found at http://www.arrl.org/cce/
Here are the courses they offer (so far):
Emergency Communication
Level 1 AREC (EC-001)
Level 2 AREC (EC-002)
Level 3 AREC (EC-003)
FEMA independent study program
Licensing
Ham Radio License Course (EC-010)
Technical courses
Antenna Modeling (EC-004)
HF Digital Comm (EC-005)
RFI (EC-006)
Beyond Repeaters (EC-008)
Antenna Design & Construction (EC-009)
Radio Frequency Propagation (EC-011)
Analog Electronics (EC-012)
Digital Electronics (EC-013)
The only real difference between what they are already doing and what you are proposing is that the FCC is not involved in any way. I do believe that the FCC is of the opinion that the less it has to do with amateur radio, the better.
The other thing that is totally worthless would be some sort of CW test. As I said earlier, I have thousands of CW QSOs in my logbook and I wouldn't trade a single one of those for all of the certificates in the world. It is much more satisfying to actually converse with someone on the air than to look at some 8.5 x 11 inch piece of parchment colored paper hanging on the wall.
Scott NĜIU
Quote[/b] (n0iu @ Aug. 31 2007,10:06)]...The other thing that is totally worthless would be some sort of CW test....
The ARRL already has this, qualifying runs, and they issue certificates for them. I wouldn't say they are worthless, it is a nice way to mark a mile stone when you are learning.
KE5FRF
08-31-2007, 05:46 PM
Quote[/b] (ne3r @ Aug. 31 2007,12:28)]Quote[/b] (n0iu @ Aug. 31 2007,10:06)]...The other thing that is totally worthless would be some sort of CW test....
The ARRL already has this, qualifying runs, and they issue certificates for them. #I wouldn't say they are worthless, it is a nice way to mark a mile stone when you are learning.
Exactly.
And for those like you scott, who see no value in a piece of paper, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE TO DO IT.
No pressures, no license requirements. Do it if you want, don't if you have no desire.
Both types of people are accomodated.
I myself have my 25 WPM certificate. As I said somewhere, the only reason I don't have the 30 or 35 is because I can't write that fast. Maybe I'll figure out a way.
I'm a certificate/diploma sort of guy. My W.A.S. and qualifying run certificates are framed and are a nice addition to my shack, as well as the plaque my club gave me at field day. Some people like to look at things like that. It is a nice "talking point" for visitors at my home...I know, bizarre, strange concept to understand.
But like you, my biggest personal satisfaction comes from the QSOs I have. My memories are in my logbook, not on my wall. Doesn't mean that wallpaper isn't nice to have though.
And all those courses you pointed too. Well, certainly they are there and I knew they were. But I think that the current system is anemic and isn't advertised and accessible enough.
You are correct that the Feds do not have interest in more beureacrocy. This is why my idea would be a partnership between them and the ARRL. The ARRL would manage the databases and the costs. This would be funded by publication and test material sales and testing fees. But the FCC endorsement of it would lend it more credibility. By having license endorsements (that have no legal bearing or privelage significance), there would be an encouragement to amateurs to advance themselves. Like it or not, many people do find personal satisfaction when their achievement is in some way recognized. Some people, as strange as it seems, get affirmation by that type of recognition. The other day, Paul, STX started a thread congratulating me on my CW ability. I did not ask for it, but it was a pleasant surprise to be recognized and get "attaboys". I don't think I'm odd or unusual in this way.
So, some kind of database where achievements are recognized and associated with callsign that doesn't pivot on license requirements or privelages, to me, would be a very good thing...especially if it is legitimized and endorsed ny a government agency such as the FCC.
Who knows, if something like that gained momentum and was managed well, employers and schools might really recognize amateur radio as a place for achievement and award college credits to those who make the grade. I know other experiences sometimes equate to college credits or job promotions.
Quote[/b] (ne3r @ Aug. 31 2007,05:28)]The ARRL already has this, qualifying runs, and they issue certificates for them.I already mentioned the Qualifying Runs in an earlier post.
Quote[/b] (ne3r @ Aug. 31 2007,05:28)]I wouldn't say they are worthless, it is a nice way to mark a mile stone when you are learning.
And as I also already said, and even nicer way to mark your progress (especially while you are learning), is to get on the air and actually converse with another human being and fill up your logbook!
Scott NĜIU
WA9SVD
08-31-2007, 11:43 PM
Quote[/b] (N8UZE @ Aug. 31 2007,06:51)]Then again, you don't need a piece of paper from the ARRL Proficiency program to prove to yourself that your code is improving in speed and accuracy.
Technical knowledge and proficiency, on the other hand, is a bit harder to verify.
===========================
True enough about not really needing the certificate. However it made me feel good. My point is that I did it for myself not for anyone else and not for "bragging rights".[/quote]
Understood, and congratulations. Not meant to be a negative comment.
Personal satisfaction was my reason for upgrading. As far as privileges/additional frequencies are concerned, I don't bother, or really care. It DOES make things easier being control op at our club station, though. With not having to remember all kinds of different privileges.
k4kyv
09-01-2007, 01:52 AM
When the FCC dumbed down the broadcast engineering requirements by merging the 1st and 2nd Class Radiotelephone commercial licences into the "General Radiotelephone" and eliminated the licensing requirement altogether to work on a broadcast transmitter, the SBE (Society of Broadcast Engineers) created a certification program. It is much more difficult to pass their certification exam than it ever was to pass the old 1st Class Radiotelephone test.