Incentive licensing a failure? [Archive]

N8UZE

08-29-2007, 06:33 PM

There are statistics available that show the growth rate of amateur radio over the decades.

According to what I've been told, the initial changes (i.e. creating a Novice license and then later the significant change to the original incentive licensing) did result in growth. People could take the journey step wise instead of all at once. They could get a basic license, get on the air, get "hooked" and then would be motivated to get upgraded.

That idea seemed to work at that time.

The effects of the introduction of the no code Tech license are somewhat obscured by the effects of the implementation of the VE system in roughly the same time frame. There was a noticeable growth but was it due to the no-code tech, being able to find exams without having to take time off work, or a combination.

The change in 2000 to only 5wpm for all licenses appears to have resulted in a lot of upgrades but no real growth.

The change to no code across the board in Feb 2007 looks to be heading the same way (upgrades but no real growth).

I think the basic principle of having a series of steps is sound. I got dragged into amateur radio by my ex-husband. Since it didn't look too hard, I agreed. Once I actually got involved, I found that I liked it and went all the way to Extra. If I had had to initially take a test that would have covered everything, I might have resisted my ex's efforts to get me to go to the class.

So I would say the principle is sound but perhaps the implementation left much to be desired.

KE5FRF

08-29-2007, 06:34 PM

Sadly, I think incentive licensing or ANY kind of incentive structure is a thing of the past. Once upon a time, people did not question rules. At least, they did not let rules hinder them from achieving a goal. If I offered a fellow $1000 to roof my house, he'd roof it and then be looking for other tasks to perform if I was willing to pay. Nowadays, the guy is up on my roof griping about being underpaid, swearing he'll never roof another house, or he's not even there at all. He's standing on a street corner panhandling.

It is a complex problem. A lot of it has to do with time budgets. It really is true that people have less time for liesure activities that require effort. By the time they finish working that weekend job that helps pay the bills the full time weekday job doesn't, all they want to do is zone out, do things that require minimal concentration or work. I don't blame most people in that quandry.

The other part, though, comes from this empowerment that was realized in the 1960s and has grown to what it is today. The empowerment that if you question the status quo and squeak loud enough, someone will come along with some grease.

So there is little "incentive" left in incentive licensing. In the case of amateur radio, some would rather change the definition of what "ham" is to accomdoate their lack of motivation rather than motivate themselves and become what hams have always been. However, I do have confidence that there are a lot of exceptions to that "rule" and I encourage those who defy it to continue to learn everything they can about it.

KI4NGN

08-29-2007, 06:45 PM

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 29 2007,11:34)]Sadly, I think incentive licensing or ANY kind of incentive structure is a thing of the past. Once upon a time, people did not question rules. At least, they did not let rules hinder them from achieving a goal. If I offered a fellow $1000 to roof my house, he'd roof it and then be looking for other tasks to perform if I was willing to pay. Nowadays, the guy is up on my roof griping about being underpaid, swearing he'll never roof another house, or he's not even there at all. He's standing on a street corner panhandling.

It is a complex problem. A lot of it has to do with time budgets. It really is true that people have less time for liesure activities that require effort. By the time they finish working that weekend job that helps pay the bills the full time weekday job doesn't, all they want to do is zone out, do things that require minimal concentration or work. I don't blame most people in that quandry.

The other part, though, comes from this empowerment that was realized in the 1960s and has grown to what it is today. The empowerment that if you question the status quo and squeak loud enough, someone will come along with some grease.

So there is little "incentive" left in incentive licensing. In the case of amateur radio, some would rather change the definition of what "ham" is to accomdoate their lack of motivation rather than motivate themselves and become what hams have always been. However, I do have confidence that there are a lot of exceptions to that "rule" and I encourage those who defy it to continue to learn everything they can about it.
You expressed why you think it has failed.

How has it failed? What goal(s) was or is not achieved by this approach to licensing?

k3wrv

08-29-2007, 06:50 PM

Mike-
Without trolling, I'll try to give you a reasoned response, tho admittedly I'm one of the ones that whines about it.
Incentive licensing came back in the early/mid 60's when us New Fartz moved from the Novice class into the General Class licenses, and the OF's back then decided we NF's were taking up too much bandwidth and destroying ham radio, so they tried to limit our phone privileges to 10 Meters and up. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif There was also a war going on between the AM Fone and the SSB'ers, which didn't help matters. If you were a highschool kid, you couldn't afford a SSB rig! (I was about 13 when it was proposed, and just out of college (or maybe a sophmore, when it got implemented)
The theory was that hams would become a whole lot more technically competent as a result of having to study harder for the new "more difficult" upgraded license tests.
Didn't work out that way, and a lot of hams just dropped out of the hobby. We did things like go to college, found out that girls were more interesting than radios, etc. But it wasn't just the NF's that dropped out, a lot of older guys decided Hamming just wasn't worth the effort any more.
In short, the attitude among the OF's was quite similar to what you see here on ZED about the Noobies. Only the ARRL managed to rip us kids off from a bunch of our privileges, whereas they gave those same privileges away to the Noobies with the No Code license.
Essentially, incentive licensing pretty well killed off growth in Hamming for about 10-15 years, and teenagers learned to not be interested in shortwave, radio, or much else. When I was a Novice, all I wanted was to be able to use a MIC. About that time, the League got upset that Novices weren't upgrading, so took away Novice 2M fone privileges, figuring that was the problem, even tho few Novices spent much time on 2. And incentive licensing took away most of out DX band fone privileges.
Having been around at that time, I can tell you it was a disaster, for both Ham Radio and for the League. I haven't rejoined that bunch since incentive licensing for more than an occasional year at a time, and many of us from that era actively hate / distrust the League. (Not a good thing, IMHO, we need the league, but that's just how it is). It really split the ham community pretty badly.
And Oh Yeah! The tests got dumbed down, and have now been dumbed down a few more times since then. The League's idea was that we'd all take up Electrical Engineering so we could pass the new tests, but most of didn't want to do that - we were Amateurs - we were in the hobby for the love of it, and nothing more. [EDIT] Regardless of what others say, the tests are easier - back then, at the age of 13, you either had to do the math by hand, or use a slide rule. And most guys had no idea what a slide rule was, let alone how to use it (realize that was covered in another thread).
So this time, the League tried to make sure no hams would lose any privileges, but by allowing NCE's in the Extra CW parts of the bands, the ripped off the CE's, thus eliminating our advantage in DX ing.
In short, it's all about "social engineering" and "typical government solutions" which are the basic problem society faces today. Just like the Coders v. the NoCoders today, only the otherway around.
Ham Radio is still a GREAT hobby, and one day we'll all learn to get along. But Incentive Licensing WAS NOT PRETTY!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

K9STH

08-29-2007, 07:02 PM

The original incentive licensing which was adopted on 22 November 1967 and became effective on 22 November 1968 caused all but less than 15,000 amateur radio operators to lose privileges on HF and Novice Class operators to lose phone privileges on 2 meters.

Those holding the Advanced Class (which was a "grandfathered" license to those who had held the highest possible class - Class "A" - previous to 1951 when the Amateur Extra Class was established - no new ones were issued at the time), General Class, and Conditional Class had their HF privileges severely restricted from the full privileges that they had held before. Only the Amateur Extra Class retained full privileges and that class of license had been a "prestige" license with no additional privileges before incentive licensing.

When incentive licensing was proposed the ARRL led everyone to believe that all those who presently had full privileges would retain them. Only those licensed after the effective date would have to be segregated by the new regulations. Unfortunately, behind the scenes, the ARRL was pushing for only Amateur Extra Class to retain full privileges with everyone else having their privileges reduced. The FCC even proposed rescinding almost all of the restricted privileges with the Amateur Extra Class only getting 10 KHz at the "low end" of the CW bands of 80, 40, 20, and 15 meters. However, the ARRL again fought this and never even published the FCC notice in QST. When the FCC did not rescind the privilege restrictions the ARRL finally "took credit" for this. But, that was published in QST in the VERY small print in the back of the magazine so most members never even knew about the situation.

Frankly, I didn't know about it until several years ago when I just happened to read the small print in the back of the single QST in which the information was published. This was decades after it happened. However, the FCC did not implement the 2nd set of restrictions which were to happen on 22 November 1969.

You have to remember that during that period of time QST was "the" primary source of FCC information for amateur radio operators. If it did not appear in QST then the vast majority of amateur radio operators did not get any information about the FCC happenings. There was no Internet. Even CQ and 73 did not get much of the information about FCC happenings until it was too late to do anything about them.

Incentive licensing caused the ARRL to lose a great number of members. They "learned" from that mistake and since then have been active in things like increased privileges for the Technician Class and the final elimination of the code requirement (although they supposedly wanted it retained for Amateur Extra Class). They definitely pushed for the no code Technician Class and for the reduction of the need for anything faster than 5 words per minute for all classes.

Glen, K9STH

WH6QB

08-29-2007, 07:19 PM

Some interesting numbers:

Total Licenses/% Tech / % General / %Extra

Today = 727,605 / 43% / 21% / 16%
1 Yr ago = 724,409 / 43% / 20% / 15%
2 yr ago = 731,200 / 40% / 20% / 15%

It looks to me like the distribution of license holders has remained stable despite the removal of the code requirement. I don't have the data handy to go back beyond that. But it would be interesting to see. Overall we are down in total numbers from 2 years ago, but the distribution of licenses is essentially the same.

Interesting.

KE5FRF

08-29-2007, 07:25 PM

Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Aug. 29 2007,13:45)]Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 29 2007,11:34)]Sadly, I think incentive licensing or ANY kind of incentive structure is a thing of the past. Once upon a time, people did not question rules. At least, they did not let rules hinder them from achieving a goal. If I offered a fellow $1000 to roof my house, he'd roof it and then be looking for other tasks to perform if I was willing to pay. Nowadays, the guy is up on my roof griping about being underpaid, swearing he'll never roof another house, or he's not even there at all. He's standing on a street corner panhandling.

It is a complex problem. A lot of it has to do with time budgets. It really is true that people have less time for liesure activities that require effort. By the time they finish working that weekend job that helps pay the bills the full time weekday job doesn't, all they want to do is zone out, do things that require minimal concentration or work. I don't blame most people in that quandry.

The other part, though, comes from this empowerment that was realized in the 1960s and has grown to what it is today. The empowerment that if you question the status quo and squeak loud enough, someone will come along with some grease.

So there is little "incentive" left in incentive licensing. In the case of amateur radio, some would rather change the definition of what "ham" is to accomdoate their lack of motivation rather than motivate themselves and become what hams have always been. However, I do have confidence that there are a lot of exceptions to that "rule" and I encourage those who defy it to continue to learn everything they can about it.
You expressed why you think it has failed.

How has it failed? What goal(s) was or is not achieved by this approach to licensing?
No, I don't think it has failed.

What I think is that with each passing year it becomes less and less effective.

Theoretically, if society never changed, if human nature was less "coddled", and if the values of the past never went away, incentive license would never change or become outdated. The same tests and same license structure of 1950 would be just as effective today as it was back then. Incentive licensing hasn't failed. American CULTURE has failed or is at least deteriorating.

Here is the thing....The theory and purpose of incentive licensing was to encourage people to set goals for themselves. Now, the goal HAS ALWAYS BEEN to 1) gain something that wasn't there before. A long time ago, this "gain" was simply the title "Extra" or "Advanced" or even "General". It didn't mean more privelages, it meant having a "certification" that you "knew your stuff". It was something that was held in esteem.

It required one to dig in and study, learn, become knowledgeable...both in code and in theory. Did some idiots slip through? Sure. But back then it was the title alone that was the goal.

I'm not sure if that was a good or a bad thing.

Then, someone decided that band allocation would be an incentive for people to learn more about radio. So, privelages were awarded to those who earned these titles. In fact, some amateurs lost privelages (which was a sore spot I'm sure).

Well, the incentive was offered and the expectation was that people would study, learn, and upgrade...and many people did!

So again, it wasn't a failure...but some weren't happy.
So, over the years the VE system came around and the No-code Tech license was introduced.
OK, I believe this is where things slid.

First of all, the detachment from the FCC (who made the rules like them or not) gave a sense of empowerment to amateurs. The VE system put testing in OUR laps. It also required accountability. Too complicated to have unique test questions. Too complicated and prone to error (and thus legalities) to have VE's grading these "unique" tests. So standardized question pools became a neccessity.

The no-code license put the bug in people's ears that leaning code was an unneccessary hindrance.

So, now we have a system where it is easier than ever to upgrade your license. The incentives are still the same. Gain privelages, gain SOME sense of accomplsihment and even respect (relative). I myself tested under the 5 WPM VE system and do feei a sense of accomplishment however lackluster it may be.

But for many people, the learning part is no longer part of the incentive. I don't WANT to learn code. I don't NEED to learn any theory. I can BUY my antennas. I can PAY to have my radios repaired.

So, the original purpose of incentive licensing (People buckling down to learn in order to gain privelages) is obsolete. The learning part will come later if it comes at all. I can memorize the test questions and get my privelages, so who cares if I learn how to calculate gain? I can use phone and PSK-31, so who cares if I learn how to use Morse Code?

The REAL objective of incentive licensing is no longer there for many if not most.

Does it still work? Yes, it does for a lot of us. It did for me (I think)...It did for a bunch of the guys here on QRZ.

But as time goes on, fewer and fewer are willing to honestly put forth the effort. The end goal of privelages and license class far far outweigh the benefit of actually learning something.

So, ultimately, incentive licensing is an archaic idea whose time has come and gone.

W5HTW

08-29-2007, 07:36 PM

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Aug. 29 2007,11:19)]I'd say incentive licensing in its current form is obsolete.

Either give some reasonable incentive, or do away with it.

Personally, I'd rather just see two licenses - a novice license (limited privileges on HF only) and a Full License, full privileges, with the theory being roughly equivalent to General class. Anything beyond is a waste of time.

I say HF only for novice to discourage public safety hams from getting licenses to access homeland security money.
I agree. Incentive licensing as it is today is useless. It performs no service other than providing a means of class snobbery. I began running into that ain 1992, and have seen lots of it.

Incentives are always good, in my opinion, for they broaden one's knowledge. There is an incentive to pass 8th grades test and get into 9th grade (well, OK, there should be!!) There is an incentive to get a Master's degree instead of stopping at a Bachelor's.

The problem with the amateur radio Incentive Licensing is it created the "incentive" by taking away instead of adding new. If, for example, the WARC bands had then been available, offering an incentive by making them available to only Extra Class licensees would have been wonderful, and would have resulted in probably just about zero complaints. But what happened was a lot of Generals (I was one) lost privileges, and had to take additional tests to recover them.

There were no new privileges to be offered back then. If we look back we can see that the Extra Class license should have been offered incentives in 1951, perhaps access to 15 meters, while others could not.

Today the remnants of Incentive Licensing remain and have no purpose at all. In fact, the Extra Class license is becoming the standard class, and maybe that IS the plan, to move us all to a single class. If so, I am all for it.

I, too, would dispense with IL today and go with a beginner's ticket, good for a year, just to see if you really want to do this ham radio thing, and then, if so, you upgrade to Standard Amateur Radio License. That would offer everything the Extra Class is offered today, and would automatically include any new privileges which may come down the pike.

Ed

And I agree with the Public Safety thing. See my thread on "new radio service.'

ab0wr

08-29-2007, 10:01 PM

w5htw:Quote[/b] ]The problem with the amateur radio Incentive Licensing is it created the "incentive" by taking away instead of adding new. If, for example, the WARC bands had then been available, offering an incentive by making them available to only Extra Class licensees would have been wonderful, and would have resulted in probably just about zero complaints. But what happened was a lot of Generals (I was one) lost privileges, and had to take additional tests to recover them.

This makes a lot of sense. If there were to be a new 5mhz band opened up and it was only available for Extra Class licensees -- then you would see some real incentive for upgrades.

tim ab0wr

K5FH

08-29-2007, 10:12 PM

Quote[/b] (ab0wr @ Aug. 29 2007,15:01)]w5htw:Quote[/b] ]The problem with the amateur radio Incentive Licensing is it created the "incentive" by taking away instead of adding new. #If, for example, the WARC bands had then been available, offering an incentive by making them available to only Extra Class licensees would have been wonderful, and would have resulted in probably just about zero complaints. #But what happened was a lot of Generals (I was one) lost privileges, and had to take additional tests to recover them. #

This makes a lot of sense. If there were to be a new 5mhz band opened up and it was only available for Extra Class licensees -- then you would see some real incentive for upgrades.

tim ab0wr
You both understand and state the situation very well.

The "incentive licensing" of 1967 - 1968 should be referred to by the more accurate and descriptive term, "punishment licensing," as Wayne Green, W2NSD, used to refer to it in his editorials in 73.

What kind of "incentive" takes away half of what you have and makes you jump through hoops to get it back?

I like the idea of new, exclusive bands as an incentive. #But they'll never do it...makes too much sense.

N3ATS

08-29-2007, 10:19 PM

Maybe a test on how to properly put together a station would be a good idea?

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j238/swweiss/ham_1.jpg

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j238/swweiss/ham_2.jpg

AE6IP

08-30-2007, 12:00 AM

In addition to the 'punishment' effect of the original incentive licensing so well described here, incentive licensing didn't produce the goal it intended: amateurs with higher degrees of technical skill.

The problem was that the incentive, access to additional slivers of spectrum, wasn't related to the goal of technical skill.

It is probably just a coincidence, but the start of incentive licesning also correlates well with the starting point of the telecommunications industry leaving amateurs behind.

Beyond that, much of the current rancor over simplified testing can be tracked directly to the incentive licensing system.

It would be far better for the hobby at this point if the tiered licensing system were replaced by a single license, based entirely on regulatory familiarity.

We could then concentrate on what we do with the license, rather than what we did to get it.

AG3Y

08-30-2007, 03:48 AM

Speaking as an OF, and a 20 wpm Extra of 25 years or so extant existance, it is WE who are losing out here !

Why do I say that ?

Well, I can clearly remember those editorials by Wayne Greene, which appeared month after month in CQ magazine, claiming how the ARRL had "RUINED" Amateur Radio by pushing the FCC to incorporate the "Incentive Licensing Program". A lot of his rhetoric appears to be reflected in some of the statements that appear in this string. It is hard for such thoughts to die gracefully.

Since the late 60s or so, the tests have certainly been "dumbed down", the exact questions and answers being published in the infamous "pools" and the requirements for displaying proficiency in CW sending and receiving being eliminated. Now days, anybody with the ability to commit facts and figures to short term memory can take even the "extra" level test, and become an "instant ham" !

This is where the FCC has "failed", in the implimentation of "incentive licensing" and the subsequent abandoning of the concept by leveling the playing field so much that virtually anybody can walk into a volunteer examining session, and walk out with at least SOME form of ham ticket!

If the trend continues, we WILL have only one grade of license, and then any rudiments of "Incentive Licensing" will be gone for once and for all! There will be NO difference between the Technician class and the Extra class license, and all hams will have the same priviledges. Everything the OF Extras worked so hard to achieve will have been absorbed back into the general makeup of the the ham community. And it will not be a happy day for The Amateur Rado Service.

JMHO http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif 73, Jim

AE6IP

08-30-2007, 04:41 AM

Sorry, but if you're going to point the finger, it is you "old tyme extra" people who "failed." As a group you failed to keep up with the technical challenges that were supposed to be the reason for your "incentive" license.

Instead, too many of you've sat on your laurels and too many of you have turned into whiny complainers rather than doing anything to advance your skills.

It is very tiring to listen to people who seem to think that knowing the formula for cutting a dipole to length is some sort of achievement complain about "dumbing down" tests that were never that "smart" to begin with.

The 60s are over with. The telecommunications revolution left amateur radio in a backwater. Get over it and get on with the hobby.

There should be only one grade of license, in recognition of the backwater that amateur radio has been for more than 30 years.

If you've "lost out" it's because you haven't done anything with your license, and not because of what the people who got licensed after you did or didn't do.

AG3Y

08-30-2007, 05:04 AM

No, Marty, I haven't lost out per se, because I have always done as much or even a little more than I have thought I could do, in both my avocation and my vocation ! But if you don't think that Amateur Extra's of 20+ years ago haven't been steadily losing their prestige, status, unique placement in the amateur community, whatever you want to call it, because of the steady erosion of the pedestal on which they were originally situated, you are either deaf, blind and dumb, or just plain choosing to ignore and avoid the truth ! I'm quite sure that it is the latter which is your problem!

For the last 5 years of my career, I worked in the development lab for a Satellite Communications Company, helping to design and build the prototypes for KA band ( 25-27 Ghz ) transmitters. A tremendous percentage of the skills that I had developed over the years came about as a direct result of the training and experience I had while designing and constructing electronic equipment that I used directly in Amateur Radio applications.

Currently I am experimenting with DRM protocols, and am building a Software Defined Radio ( SDR ) for use with Digital SSTV and Voice applications. I don't know how advanced you think a ham has to be , in order to NOT be in the "backwater" of technology, but if you think I am wollowing around back there, please tell me, and others such as myself, what we have to do, to catch up with your obviously advanced level of achievement. "Inquiring minds want to know! " Now you will have to excuse me. I need to go rest my weary mind so I can figure out how to save the world through the use of ham radio technology, tomorrow!

Jim

k4kyv

08-30-2007, 06:31 AM

Incentive Licensing was a dismal failure in terms of its stated intent and purpose when first proposed.

Prior to the early 1950's, there were three grades of licence: Class A (full privileges), Class B (full privileges on all frequencies, except that Class B licensees could not operate phone on 75m and 20m. They could use CW on those frequencies, however). Class C--same as Class B, except that it was given by a volunteer examiner with at least a Class B licence. Available only to amateurs living more than 125 miles from the nearest FCC examination point.

The Class A licence exam was identical to the Class B, except that it had an additional examination element that covered radiotelephony (voice) techniques.

Sometime about 1951, the FCC restructured the licensing system. The Extra Class was created, the Class A renamed "Advanced", the Class B renamed "General" and Class C renamed "Conditional". The new Extra Class gave no additional privileges over the General--it was simply a certificate to hang on the wall as a form of pride of achievement. Just as to-day, no more new Advanced class licences were to be issued. General Class had full amateur privileges. The Novice and Technician Classes were created.

Following the creation of the Novice Class, there was an explosion in the amateur population during the 1950's. By the early 60's, the ARRL expressed concern that the technical competence of the amateur community was declining. Fewer hams were building their own equipment; instead, they more and more buying ready-made rigs and putting them on the air, with little interest in what was inside the cabinet. Ham radio was changing from a highly technical endeavour to a communicator-oriented hobby.

In an issue of QST sometime in 1963, the League suggested that the circa-1951 restructuring was a mistake and proposed to return to the old Class A/Class B licensing system. A petition for rulemaking was submitted to the FCC.

When the FCC acted on the petition, they came up with a "compromise", to subdivide all the bands into segments by licence class, the present "incentive licensing" system. Incentive Licensing was supposed to reverse the trend away from technical competence within the amateur community.

But the stated goal of incentive licensing did not occur. If anything, I.L. accelerated the decline of the technical skill and knowledge of the typical ham. Within a year or so after I.L. went into effect, homebrew rigs all but disappeared from the ham bands, and more than ever, ham radio was looked upon as a "personal communications" service. About the only skills Incentive Licensing generated was that of successfully completing multiple-choice tests.

ARRL acknowledged this continuing decline when they took most of the in-depth technical articles out of QST and put them in a separate publication that members must pay extra for, QEX. To-day, there is little suggestion by the League that amateurs should be expected to have more than a minimal knowledge of operating practice, FCC rules and radio theory in order to obtain a licence.

The elimination of the code tests pretty well drove the final spike into the heart of the incentive licensing concept.

Based on the stated intent of Incentive Licensing, it has been a dismal failure.

AE6IP

08-30-2007, 06:34 AM

Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ Aug. 29 2007,21:04)]No, Marty, I haven't lost out per se, because I have always done as much or even a little more than I have thought I could do, in both my avocation and my vocation ! But if you don't think that Amateur Extra's of 20+ years ago haven't been steadily losing their prestige, status, unique placement in the amateur community, whatever you want to call it, because of the steady erosion of the pedestal on which they were originally situated, you are either deaf, blind and dumb, or just plain choosing to ignore and avoid the truth ! I'm quite sure that it is the latter which is your problem!
Your preoccupation with this non-existent "pedestal" belies your arguments to the contrary.

Hobbies are personal things. If you want someone else to put you on a pedestal because of some imagined accomplishment, then you are bound to be disappointed, no matter what that accomplishment was.

I think that those people, Extra class or not, who earned that prestige earned it by what they did, not by what license test they passed before they did it, then, as now.

You should be pleased for yourself on the merits of your own accomplishments and shouldn't care one way or another whether your "Old Tyme Extra" deserves more "prestige" than my "Extra Lite."

KI4NGN

08-30-2007, 10:28 AM

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Aug. 29 2007,23:34)]Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ Aug. 29 2007,21:04)]No, Marty, I haven't lost out per se, because I have always done as much or even a little more than I have thought I could do, in both my avocation and my vocation ! # #But if you don't think that Amateur Extra's of 20+ years ago haven't been steadily losing their prestige, status, unique placement in the amateur community, whatever you want to call it, because of the steady erosion of the pedestal on which they were originally situated, you are either deaf, blind and dumb, or just plain choosing to ignore and avoid the truth ! # I'm quite sure that it is the latter which is your problem!
Your preoccupation with this non-existent "pedestal" belies your arguments to the contrary.

Hobbies are personal things. If you want someone else to put you on a pedestal because of some imagined accomplishment, then you are bound to be disappointed, no matter what that accomplishment was.

I think that those people, Extra class or not, who earned that prestige earned it by what they did, not by what license test they passed before they did it, then, as now.

You should be pleased for yourself on the merits of your own accomplishments and shouldn't care one way or another whether your "Old Tyme Extra" deserves more "prestige" than my "Extra Lite."
Sorry Marty, but I agree with Jim on this one.

For example, a highschool diploma is a personal thing. Having one or not having one certainly has an impact on your life, and that is very personal. However it also has meaning to the outside world because it indicates that you do have some minimum level of education.

Now as we all know, it seems that level of minimum education has sure appeared to have declined over the years, and this can be likened to the amateur radio tests, but that doesn't lessen the need to have one.

That "pedestal" is real and applicable in many walks of life. The extra class ops of yester-year didn't create it, but they were put on to it by virtue of having obtained their ticket. It was a goal for others to attain. Right or wrong, and whether or not many ops got screwed when implemented, the purpose of the incentive structure was to give more than prestige to the goal.

Now why is a college BS deemed more valuable that a highschool diploma? The only answer is additional education. The indicator of more education (the diploma) is no proof of how well (or not) that additional education may be individually applied, but it does indicate that at least theoretically the individual should be more capable than the person without that additional education. Certainly in practice the reverse may be true, but we most always require some way of proving ourselves to others before the fact of acceptance, not after.

Using your reasoning for doing away with testing, one license, etc, one would have to ask why we have various levels of college degrees? What's the point? Get out there and show what you can do by doing it. You miss the point of the real world in that we have measures that we use as starting points, and you have to meet that measurement before you're allowed to start showing what you can do. Fact of life Marty.

You discuss the electronics and communications industry leaving amateurs behind. This has absolutely nothing to with our licensing structure, and your argument completes ignores the impact of advancing technology.

Most hams have not built their own gear in the last 50 years. Certainly many have, but most have not and the reason is pretty simple: economics of time and money. Most hams, then and now, could not design and build rigs of the same quality as factory rigs for anywhere near the lower cost of purchase compared to their own higher design and construction costs.

Your argument does not take into account the fact that in the early hams days everyone was still discovering new theories, inventing new circuit designs. New theories are now developed and proven using quantum physics. It's the technology of manufacturing that has left hams in the dust, and that is something that hams can't compete with. Going from discrete components to integrated circuits, going from a few hundred to millions of components on a chip. Licensing, testing, incentives, had nothing to do with hams being left behind in this because hams are amateur individuals, not multi-billion dollar labs researching manufacturing techniques.

Your reasoning is that because of our place in the technological world, there is no longer a reason to demonstrate an understanding of theory and technology. I'll stick with the analogy of the various levels of educational diplomas. Does every holder of a BS apply on their job or in their every day life those things they were required to know to obtain that degree? Of course not! Does that mean that it was a waste to have been required to acquire that knowledge, to be tested that you at least retained it in your short term memory before being given your degree? Maybe, but the fact is that it demonstrates that you had that education in your head at the time that you were tested, qualifying you for that degree.

Now, should the BS be given the same starting point to begin proving himself as another with a PhD? Using your logic, the answer to that is yes, but we both know that has no connection with reality.

Given Glen's and others' posts I can see where that the transition to incentive licensing was a disaster for existing hams, but I can see a valid purpose in adding more incentive than prestige to the license. I appreciate the extra little slices of phone bands that I may enjoy.

This brings me to your premise that becoming an extra is so easy that it is pointless. I'd say that all real evidence soundly contradicts that. It may have been easy for you, and it was fairly easy for me, but look at the facts: The extra class ticket is still by far the minority license class. If it's so easy, then why isn't it the majority ticket? Many on QRZ say that it is so easy, either by virtue of content or by memorization. Again, if it is so easy for either or both of those reasons, then why isn't it the majority ticket?

I'll agree with the proposal of one main class of license when I see the extra ticket as the majority ticket, or even a trend in that direction. Until then I am glad for the incentives, little as they may be, to advance.

Mike

W0BKR

08-30-2007, 11:47 AM

From what I have seen and have talked this before repeatedly, relaxing the entrance criteria, taking off Code tests, etc., does nothing at all to generate any sort of sustainable growth.

There may be a spike of sorts, but it is usually short lived and usually levels out to reflect a population at or below what was predicted.

Again, what is going to make amateur radio grow in numbers, if that is really such a big need, ARRL et al, are going to have to demonstrate, sell and market amateur radio as something more then a communications hobby interest.

Back in the 60's and 70's that was achieveable. Didn't have internet, computer games, the affulencing we have today, etc. Not much to distract the "younger" crowd. Can't say that now. Dumbing down and giving "free upgrades" won't grow the numbes either.

If you can't interest them, you can't keep them. Simple.

Incentive licensing had its opportunity back then. Wouldn't work now. Hardly can get individuals to take time to learn 5 wpm code test.

So what is the motivation for the new ops or wanna be ops?

k3wrv

08-30-2007, 12:10 PM

Back in the pre IL days, the Extra ticket really meant something - it meant you had *Experience*, *Superior CW Skills* and *Knowledge of Theory above and beyond what was generally expected of hams*. If you had an Extra back then, you were in the top 1% of all hams in all three catregories. IIRC, the test was very heavy on SSB (new technology to hams at that time) and fast scan TV (reasonably esoteric even today).
I knew perhaps one Extra back then. It really WAS something pretty special, and if you held an extra, other hams were almost in awe of you!
But either the CW or the Theory held a lot of otherwise well qualified hams back.
As examples - I knew quite a few hams who held advanced degrees in Engineering and were more technically competent than I'll ever be, and have been great contributors to the hobby, through development of new modes, Personal Computers and stuff like that. But they got stuck at Advanced, and even though they could run a broadcast TV station, they couldn't transmit SSB from e.g. 3750 to 3775 (or whever it was). When the Code went to 5WPM, these guys upgraded.
So if the purpose of IL was to improve technical competence in the hobby, it was a disaster.
If you happen to run into an "Extra Heavy" from back in the 70's, you'll know and realize that you're talking to a pretty exceptional person. This is not to dis the Extra Lites, it's just how it was back when an Extra was an Extra and not just another ham.
de Bob

KI4NGN

08-30-2007, 01:15 PM

Quote[/b] (k3wrv @ Aug. 30 2007,05:10)]Back in the pre IL days, the Extra ticket really meant something - it meant you had *Experience*, *Superior CW Skills* and *Knowledge of Theory above and beyond what was generally expected of hams*. #If you had an Extra back then, you were in the top 1% of all hams in all three catregories. #IIRC, the test was very heavy on SSB (new technology to hams at that time) and fast scan TV (reasonably esoteric even today).
# # I knew perhaps one Extra back then. #It really WAS something pretty special, and if you held an extra, other hams were almost in awe of you!
# # But either the CW or the Theory held a lot of otherwise well qualified hams back.
# # As examples - I knew quite a few hams who held advanced degrees in Engineering and were more technically competent than I'll ever be, and have been great contributors to the hobby, through development of new modes, Personal Computers and stuff like that. #But they got stuck at Advanced, and even though they could run a broadcast TV station, they couldn't transmit SSB from e.g. 3750 to 3775 (or whever it was). #When the Code went to 5WPM, these guys upgraded.
# # So if the purpose of IL was to improve technical competence in the hobby, it was a disaster.
# # If you happen to run into an "Extra Heavy" from back in the 70's, you'll know and realize that you're talking to a pretty exceptional person. #This is not to dis the Extra Lites, it's just how it was back when an Extra was an Extra and not just another ham.
# # de Bob
I agree with most of your post! Way back 'when' the number of Extras may have been 1%, where the last few years at least, according to an earlier poster, they number around 15%.

As I posted earlier, if the tests were as easy as so many on this site would have everyone believe, because of content and/or memorization, then there would be far more than 15% extra tickets.

And while 15% is far many more than 1%, an extra is still not just another ham.

No argument from me, the tests have gotten easier, but easier does not equate to easy.

Mike

AG3Y

08-30-2007, 02:01 PM

Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Aug. 29 2007,19:19)]Maybe a test on how to properly put together a station would be a good idea?

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j238/swweiss/ham_1.jpg

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j238/swweiss/ham_2.jpg
I think I see some space on the left side of that tower ( above the dish ) where you MIGHT be able to stick in one or two more antennas, if you try hard enough!

And BTW, that RF choke at the entry point to your building, how many dB of loss do you suspect you are losing in all that "extra" cable ? You could be using that to feed those additional antennas I'm referring to !

Just pushing your buttons ! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

73 Jim

N2RJ

08-30-2007, 02:19 PM

Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Aug. 30 2007,05:28)]Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Aug. 29 2007,23:34)]Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ Aug. 29 2007,21:04)]No, Marty, I haven't lost out per se, because I have always done as much or even a little more than I have thought I could do, in both my avocation and my vocation ! But if you don't think that Amateur Extra's of 20+ years ago haven't been steadily losing their prestige, status, unique placement in the amateur community, whatever you want to call it, because of the steady erosion of the pedestal on which they were originally situated, you are either deaf, blind and dumb, or just plain choosing to ignore and avoid the truth ! I'm quite sure that it is the latter which is your problem!
Your preoccupation with this non-existent "pedestal" belies your arguments to the contrary.

Hobbies are personal things. If you want someone else to put you on a pedestal because of some imagined accomplishment, then you are bound to be disappointed, no matter what that accomplishment was.

I think that those people, Extra class or not, who earned that prestige earned it by what they did, not by what license test they passed before they did it, then, as now.

You should be pleased for yourself on the merits of your own accomplishments and shouldn't care one way or another whether your "Old Tyme Extra" deserves more "prestige" than my "Extra Lite."
Sorry Marty, but I agree with Jim on this one.

For example, a highschool diploma is a personal thing. Having one or not having one certainly has an impact on your life, and that is very personal. However it also has meaning to the outside world because it indicates that you do have some minimum level of education.

Now as we all know, it seems that level of minimum education has sure appeared to have declined over the years, and this can be likened to the amateur radio tests, but that doesn't lessen the need to have one.

That "pedestal" is real and applicable in many walks of life. The extra class ops of yester-year didn't create it, but they were put on to it by virtue of having obtained their ticket. It was a goal for others to attain. Right or wrong, and whether or not many ops got screwed when implemented, the purpose of the incentive structure was to give more than prestige to the goal.

Now why is a college BS deemed more valuable that a highschool diploma? The only answer is additional education. The indicator of more education (the diploma) is no proof of how well (or not) that additional education may be individually applied, but it does indicate that at least theoretically the individual should be more capable than the person without that additional education. Certainly in practice the reverse may be true, but we most always require some way of proving ourselves to others before the fact of acceptance, not after.

Using your reasoning for doing away with testing, one license, etc, one would have to ask why we have various levels of college degrees? What's the point? Get out there and show what you can do by doing it. You miss the point of the real world in that we have measures that we use as starting points, and you have to meet that measurement before you're allowed to start showing what you can do. Fact of life Marty.

You discuss the electronics and communications industry leaving amateurs behind. This has absolutely nothing to with our licensing structure, and your argument completes ignores the impact of advancing technology.

Most hams have not built their own gear in the last 50 years. Certainly many have, but most have not and the reason is pretty simple: economics of time and money. Most hams, then and now, could not design and build rigs of the same quality as factory rigs for anywhere near the lower cost of purchase compared to their own higher design and construction costs.

Your argument does not take into account the fact that in the early hams days everyone was still discovering new theories, inventing new circuit designs. New theories are now developed and proven using quantum physics. It's the technology of manufacturing that has left hams in the dust, and that is something that hams can't compete with. Going from discrete components to integrated circuits, going from a few hundred to millions of components on a chip. Licensing, testing, incentives, had nothing to do with hams being left behind in this because hams are amateur individuals, not multi-billion dollar labs researching manufacturing techniques.

Your reasoning is that because of our place in the technological world, there is no longer a reason to demonstrate an understanding of theory and technology. I'll stick with the analogy of the various levels of educational diplomas. Does every holder of a BS apply on their job or in their every day life those things they were required to know to obtain that degree? Of course not! Does that mean that it was a waste to have been required to acquire that knowledge, to be tested that you at least retained it in your short term memory before being given your degree? Maybe, but the fact is that it demonstrates that you had that education in your head at the time that you were tested, qualifying you for that degree.

Now, should the BS be given the same starting point to begin proving himself as another with a PhD? Using your logic, the answer to that is yes, but we both know that has no connection with reality.

Given Glen's and others' posts I can see where that the transition to incentive licensing was a disaster for existing hams, but I can see a valid purpose in adding more incentive than prestige to the license. I appreciate the extra little slices of phone bands that I may enjoy.

This brings me to your premise that becoming an extra is so easy that it is pointless. I'd say that all real evidence soundly contradicts that. It may have been easy for you, and it was fairly easy for me, but look at the facts: The extra class ticket is still by far the minority license class. If it's so easy, then why isn't it the majority ticket? Many on QRZ say that it is so easy, either by virtue of content or by memorization. Again, if it is so easy for either or both of those reasons, then why isn't it the majority ticket?

I'll agree with the proposal of one main class of license when I see the extra ticket as the majority ticket, or even a trend in that direction. Until then I am glad for the incentives, little as they may be, to advance.

Mike
Wow, I can't believe that I agree with Mike.

Well said!

AG3Y

08-30-2007, 02:51 PM

Well said, Mike, well said. Thanks !

And also a big thank you to Glen for that concise history of the "Incentive Licensing" agenda and its effects on hams of that period.

I could never really understand why so many existing hams were so bent out of shape by the Incentive Licensing program. I was just a Novice when the program was in full swing, and I just shrugged my shoulders and worked my way through the various levels. I was more fortunate than most, I guess, and did manage to get my Extra. But in those days, it was just something you did, for whatever reason was your motivation.

But "IL" was a big blow to the hams that previously had "everything" and lost privileges rather than gaining them. And as I stated before, we Extras are now losing our elevated status as the ground around us becomes more level. History seems to repeat itself, in some convoluted form or another, doesn't it ?

Ask any teacher what they think of the "no child left behind" agenda. They will tell you in no uncertain terms, usually in a very negative manner. That is how we OFs feel about the current NC, ExtraLite, whatever you want to call it, agenda that is being pushed by the ARRL and implemented by the F.C.C.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif 73, Jim

K7JEM

08-30-2007, 03:28 PM

I always get a chuckle from these threads. So many hams want to be something that they are not, and who knows for what reason?

HR is a hobby. Most hobbies have no tests or licenses to take before you enter in. The reason we have licenses is because the gov't has always controlled the airwaves through licensing. Very few services are unlicensed, unless they are low power or highly restricted.

The reason we have tests is because of international treaty. If that treaty were to be modified, then you would see testing go away.

If you want to get into the gun hobby, you go out and buy a gun, do research and learning, then develop the hobby to the point that you desire. Same goes for robotics, photography, old car restoration, woodworking, metal fabrication, painting, camping, hiking, off road ATV or bike, etc. The list goes on and on. No license, no test. People of all different levels enjoying the hobby to their ability and desire.

Some hams want to focus on this "test", as if it means something, or ever really did. The test could be equivalent to a college EE degree, but it's not. To hear some posters here, they certainly think it used to be, or should be.

You cannot compare high school, or any schooling to a HR license. At best, HR tests can only be compared to some mid term freshman algebra test. You don't hear 50 year old men talking about that. "Yeah, when I was a freshman, they used to give hard tests. I remember one mid-term exam that was a bugger. It took me over an hour, and I had to study for weeks before hand."

People don't hold up past petty achievements as any sort of benchmark in their lives. That's what a HR test is, a petty achievement, it is not life altering or even a learning experience. The learning is done before and after the test.

IL was a failure because it moved the concept of HR licensing and testing in the wrong direction. We are finally seeing some of that change, and we will see more changes in the future.

It will eventually come down to one license class that allows all types of operation. That is inevitable. It will also get to a point where there is no test, or maybe a simple on-line qualification to receive your license.

Joe

AE6IP

08-30-2007, 03:40 PM

Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Aug. 30 2007,02:28)]Using your reasoning for doing away with testing, one license, etc, one would have to ask why we have various levels of college degrees? What's the point? Get out there and show what you can do by doing it. You miss the point of the real world in that we have measures that we use as starting points, and you have to meet that measurement before you're allowed to start showing what you can do. Fact of life Marty.

I've emphasized a specific sentence in your comment, because you are saying in that sentence exactly what I'm saying.

Where we differ is in the emphasis we put on passing a test as an example of 'doing it'.

None of the amateur radio tests have ever been difficult. A midterm in introductory electronics at decent college has always been harder.

Sure, tests are starting points, but the situation is different now than it was forty years ago, and so is the necessary starting point.

KI4NGN

08-30-2007, 04:01 PM

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Aug. 30 2007,08:40)]Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Aug. 30 2007,02:28)]Using your reasoning for doing away with testing, one license, etc, one would have to ask why we have various levels of college degrees? What's the point? Get out there and show what you can do by doing it. You miss the point of the real world in that we have measures that we use as starting points, and you have to meet that measurement before you're allowed to start showing what you can do. Fact of life Marty.

I've emphasized a specific sentence in your comment, because you are saying in that sentence exactly what I'm saying.

Where we differ is in the emphasis we put on passing a test as an example of 'doing it'.

None of the amateur radio tests have ever been difficult. A midterm in introductory electronics at decent college has always been harder.

Sure, tests are starting points, but the situation is different now than it was forty years ago, and so is the necessary starting point.
Marty, I used that sentence to express your opinion, not mine, I should have been clearer. My point was that there are many areas where you can't just get out there and show what you can do by just doing it. You won't get to the starting point until you have somehow proven that you belong there.

I don't know what your background is, but do you think that anywhere near the vast majority of hams went to college and had an introductory course in electronics? Think about the truck driver, or pilot, or plumber, or computer programmer (me!), or medical doctor, where all of their electronics education was self-taught. Think about that! The vast majority of hams did not have a formal schooling that covers what you seem to consider a low level, common education. It may have been easy for some, not so easy for others. It's rather narrow-minded of you to exclaim that the tests have never been difficult without qualifying that they have never been difficult for you.

KI4NGN

08-30-2007, 04:02 PM

Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Aug. 30 2007,08:28)]I always get a chuckle from these threads. So many hams want to be something that they are not, and who knows for what reason?

HR is a hobby. Most hobbies have no tests or licenses to take before you enter in. The reason we have licenses is because the gov't has always controlled the airwaves through licensing. Very few services are unlicensed, unless they are low power or highly restricted.

The reason we have tests is because of international treaty. If that treaty were to be modified, then you would see testing go away.

If you want to get into the gun hobby, you go out and buy a gun, do research and learning, then develop the hobby to the point that you desire. Same goes for robotics, photography, old car restoration, woodworking, metal fabrication, painting, camping, hiking, off road ATV or bike, etc. The list goes on and on. No license, no test. People of all different levels enjoying the hobby to their ability and desire.

Some hams want to focus on this "test", as if it means something, or ever really did. The test could be equivalent to a college EE degree, but it's not. To hear some posters here, they certainly think it used to be, or should be.

You cannot compare high school, or any schooling to a HR license. At best, HR tests can only be compared to some mid term freshman algebra test. You don't hear 50 year old men talking about that. "Yeah, when I was a freshman, they used to give hard tests. I remember one mid-term exam that was a bugger. It took me over an hour, and I had to study for weeks before hand."

People don't hold up past petty achievements as any sort of benchmark in their lives. That's what a HR test is, a petty achievement, it is not life altering or even a learning experience. The learning is done before and after the test.

IL was a failure because it moved the concept of HR licensing and testing in the wrong direction. We are finally seeing some of that change, and we will see more changes in the future.

It will eventually come down to one license class that allows all types of operation. That is inevitable. It will also get to a point where there is no test, or maybe a simple on-line qualification to receive your license.

Joe
No test is a learning experience, unless you fail, and then you've learned what you are lacking.

Learning does occur before and after the test, but until you learn enough to pass the test, there is no venue for you to move forward and learn more in any way that can be usefully demonstrated that will yield a generally accepted proof of that education.

You completely missed the point of the comparison to schooling. I wasn't comparing content, but the fact of proofs. It doesn't matter why licenses are required, only the fact that they are. Maybe it will one day come down to no license, I don't know, but as long as a license is required, as long as regulations require testing to obtain those licenses, then passing the test is just a validly an achievement as obtaining a diploma. I'm not comparing the underlying requirements or the scale of those requirements, just the fact of meeting those requirements.

The achievement is not an end and no one suggests that it is, but that doesn't lessen it being an achievement. That proof of education in and of itself is a milestone, but the continuing worth of it is what you do with as you move forward.

Obtaining a ham ticket is an achievment no matter how little you think of it. That is the starting point for the ham: he's qualified himself to participate in the hobby. He is then measured from that starting point according to how he uses his hobby.

N2RJ

08-30-2007, 04:05 PM

Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Aug. 30 2007,10:28)]The reason we have tests is because of international treaty. If that treaty were to be modified, then you would see testing go away.
That's not correct.

The ITU doesn't exist on its own. It is made up of members, who contribute towards treaties and regulations.

The treaty was designed in part by the US, who is a member of the ITU.

I'd say a major part of the ITU amateur radio regulations were designed by the US, i.e. the FCC, since the hobby originated here.

The USA certainly doesn't have to follow the ITU regulations. Many countries have indeed not followed the ITU regulations, and some aren't ITU members. The ITU has 191 or so member countries.

Quote[/b] ]If you want to get into the gun hobby, you go out and buy a gun, do research and learning, then develop the hobby to the point that you desire.

Some places make you take a safety course and a background check before you get a gun permit. This isn't universal, but I've heard many a gun owner complain about improperly trained gun owners as being dangerous. I tend to agree that something as dangerous as a gun shouldn't be in untrained hands, and definitely not in the hands of people with criminal records for violent crimes.

Quote[/b] ] Same goes for robotics, photography, old car restoration, woodworking, metal fabrication, painting, camping, hiking, off road ATV or bike, etc. The list goes on and on. No license, no test. People of all different levels enjoying the hobby to their ability and desire.

Some, such as boating or auto racing (on the track) require training and some tracks (at least those that I've been to) won't let you drive on them without a license.

My point is that there's a wide variation in hobbies, and some hobbies need to make sure people are qualified for a reason. It's not simply "a childish hazing ritual" as some have referred to it as.

Quote[/b] ]It will eventually come down to one license class that allows all types of operation. That is inevitable. It will also get to a point where there is no test, or maybe a simple on-line qualification to receive your license.

I think that will happen too, but for different reasons than you believe.

kl7aj

08-30-2007, 04:10 PM

O, I dunno. I had a pretty good incentive to get a license. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

KE5FRF

08-30-2007, 04:25 PM

Joe and Marty....really two guys who are very different but who find agreement on these AR topics. I'd like to see you guys bout it out on topics of faith. Would be interesting.

I'm just yankin' yer chain.

You know, I agree with you guys that getting an amateur license has never been some great achievement (relative to getting a college degree or making your first million or something like that)

Even without a college degree in EE, the testing I underwent for my AE was not brutal or particularly challenging. My experience, background, and formal vocational training was to my advantage. And from all that has been described about tests of yesteryear, I know that with just a little more effort and preperation I would have aced them too.

But you guys belittle the achievement of amateur radio licensing to a point of silliness. This is because you analyze the tests from the perspective of a formally trained professional instead of the perspective of a school bus driver, secretary, hospital orderly, or deli worker.

The truth of the matter is that the majority of hams are now and have always been average yokels working in unrelated fields but having an cursory interest in electronics or radio technique. For most people the achievement of "working up the ladder" in amateur radio is a source of significant pride and accomplsihment.

IMHO, it is very prejudicial to disparage that accomplishment in such a joking manner. Many people in this great nation of ours and indeed throughout the world have not enjoyed the benefit of a college degree for reasons as varied as warts on a frog. I myself attended college for a brief time but events of a financial, family, and otherwise personal nature forced me to take another route. I always enjoyed success academically and still do when challenged with opportunities to further my education. But I am ME and I can not dor do I wish to judge others of lesser means or ability by my own benchmarks. Neither should you.

Here is where you are terribly mistaken. You believe that people such as myself or others who wish amateur testing to be a challenge are here to hold people back and preserve a caste system of haves and have nots. While this may be true of a few it is not true of myself and the majority. Instead, what I envision is a goal oriented system where achievement is encoraged and rewarded. After all, what is so wrong with a school bus driver or shoe salesman taking pride and personal satisfaction in learning something new? What is wrong with a hobby where the end result (privelages) coincides with personal development (learning)? You see, I do not believe as you do that being proud of such things is farcical. I also do not believe there is any harm in setting (reasonably/relatively) high standards in a non-professional endeavor. The "achievement" is so much more valued when the road to it is a challenge, however small.

I know many a friend whose greatest life moments are but distant memories for reflection. Catching the winning pass in a high school football game. Making an "A" on a single mid-term final in a class they almost failed. Landing a decent paying job after months of interviews and being turned down wherever they went.

I recently saw a poignant movie called "The Pursuit of Happyness" starring Will Smith. It was about a medical equipment door-to-door salesman who had a dream of getting a job on Wall Street. His life hit rock bottom and his sense of self worth deteriorated because of the obstacles in his life. But he stuck with it, studied and learned, pushed himself through an apprenticeship, and eventually went on to become a major player on Wall Street by founding a reknowned brokerage firm. This was a true story.

Believe it or not, there are people in this world whose sense of self worth hinges on achievements that some of us would consider minor. And in some cases the simple confidence boost of such minor achievement is a spring board to bigger and better things. As our PC society continues to water down the significance of minor achievements such as "An Extra Class radio license", it only leaves the "haves" in this world with anything to take pride in.

I for one don't like this.

K7JEM

08-30-2007, 04:25 PM

Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Aug. 30 2007,09:02)]Obtaining a ham ticket is an achievment no matter how little you think of it. That is the starting point for the ham: he's qualified himself to participate in the hobby. He is then measured from that starting point according to how he uses his hobby.
I think it's an achievement, but a petty one. Certainly anything that can be learned in an hour a day for 3 or 4 weeks or less is not a major accomplishment. And thats all it takes to get a ham license. Perhaps in past years the amount of time required for study was longer, but is was never anything that a bright teenager could not achieve.

My point is that most hobbies do not have this "entrance point" mentality, at least in regards to some petty "test". That is the reason the tests are becoming easier and deal less with technical issues. They simply aren't needed for the hobby. People will learn it if they need to.

Why does anyone need to be "measured" in a hobby endeavor? Seems to me, the measurements will be coming from one's peers, or from oneself. Most other hobbies have no such measurement "requirements", either pre or post initiation. Some hobbies have internal organizations that may distribute awards or proficiency plaques, etc, but they are not needed to participate or even excel.

Joe

KE5FRF

08-30-2007, 04:27 PM

Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Aug. 30 2007,11:25)]Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Aug. 30 2007,09:02)]Obtaining a ham ticket is an achievment no matter how little you think of it. That is the starting point for the ham: he's qualified himself to participate in the hobby. He is then measured from that starting point according to how he uses his hobby.
I think it's an achievement, but a petty one. Certainly anything that can be learned in an hour a day for 3 or 4 weeks or less is not a major accomplishment. And thats all it takes to get a ham license. Perhaps in past years the amount of time required for study was longer, but is was never anything that a bright teenager could not achieve.

My point is that most hobbies do not have this "entrance point" mentality, at least in regards to some petty "test". That is the reason the tests are becoming easier and deal less with technical issues. They simply aren't needed for the hobby. People will learn it if they need to.

Why does anyone need to be "measured" in a hobby endeavor? Seems to me, the measurements will be coming from one's peers, or from oneself. Most other hobbies have no such measurement "requirements", either pre or post initiation. Some hobbies have internal organizations that may distribute awards or proficiency plaques, etc, but they are not needed to participate or even excel.

Joe
Read my above post.

A "petty" achievement eh? Words are knives, Joe.

AE6IP

08-30-2007, 04:39 PM

Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Aug. 30 2007,08:01)]Marty, I used that sentence to express your opinion, not mine, I should have been clearer.

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

Quote[/b] ]My point was that there are many areas where you can't just get out there and show what you can do by just doing it. You won't get to the starting point until you have somehow proven that you belong there.

But of those 'many areas', very few are hobbies. You don't have to prove that you 'belong' in order to participate in a hobby. with very few exceptions. and of the exceptions, amateur radio is the only one where that proof takes the form of a test unrelated to actual practice.

Quote[/b] ]It's rather narrow-minded of you to exclaim that the tests have never been difficult without qualifying that they have never been difficult for you.

I did qualify in which way they weren't difficult: in contrast to a formal education in electronics.

AE6IP

08-30-2007, 04:48 PM

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 30 2007,08:25)]For most people the achievement of "working up the ladder" in amateur radio is a source of significant pride and accomplsihment.

Believe it or not, there are people in this world whose sense of self worth hinges on achievements that some of us would consider minor. And in some cases the simple confidence boost of such minor achievement is a spring board to bigger and better things. As our PC society continues to water down the significance of minor achievements such as "An Extra Class radio license", it only leaves the "haves" in this world with anything to take pride in.

I for one don't like this.
What you are missing in all of this is that the 'sense of self worth' should be a personal thing. You should measure yourself against yourself, and you shouldn't expect anyone else to value your personal accomplishments in the same way as you do.

The fact that I'm an extra lite and perhaps took an easier test than someone who passed their extra in the 60s should make no difference to them. They should measure their accomplishment against themselves, not against what the rules were forty years later.

K7JEM

08-30-2007, 04:54 PM

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 30 2007,09:25)]Joe and Marty....really two guys who are very different but who find agreement on these AR topics. I'd like to see you guys bout it out on topics of faith. Would be interesting.
We would be worlds apart on that issue. We probably agree 95% on HR related issues, though

Quote[/b] ]
Even without a college degree in EE, the testing I underwent for my AE was not brutal or particularly challenging. My experience, background, and formal vocational training was to my advantage. And from all that has been described about tests of yesteryear, I know that with just a little more effort and preperation I would have aced them too.

But you guys belittle the achievement of amateur radio licensing to a point of silliness. This is because you analyze the tests from the perspective of a formally trained professional instead of the perspective of a school bus driver, secretary, hospital orderly, or deli worker.
I don't belittle the achievement, but it isn't particularly grand either. It is inconsequential in most terms of your life. If it is in the top 20 things you did in your life, then you have a crappy life. I'm not talking about HR here, I am talking about the HR test. HR can be a very important and enjoyable part of your life history. The test would just be a few hours of your time.

Quote[/b] ]
The truth of the matter is that the majority of hams are now and have always been average yokels working in unrelated fields but having an cursory interest in electronics or radio technique. For most people the achievement of "working up the ladder" in amateur radio is a source of significant pride and accomplsihment.
Maybe, maybe not. You make it seem as if the test wasn't there, that these people would have no sense of pride or accomplishment.

Quote[/b] ]
IMHO, it is very prejudicial to disparage that accomplishment in such a joking manner. Many people in this great nation of ours and indeed throughout the world have not enjoyed the benefit of a college degree for reasons as varied as warts on a frog. I myself attended college for a brief time but events of a financial, family, and otherwise personal nature forced me to take another route. I always enjoyed success academically and still do when challenged with opportunities to further my education. But I am ME and I can not dor do I wish to judge others of lesser means or ability by my own benchmarks. Neither should you.

Here is where you are terribly mistaken. You believe that people such as myself or others who wish amateur testing to be a challenge are here to hold people back and preserve a caste system of haves and have nots. While this may be true of a few it is not true of myself and the majority. Instead, what I envision is a goal oriented system where achievement is encoraged and rewarded. After all, what is so wrong with a school bus driver or shoe salesman taking pride and personal satisfaction in learning something new? What is wrong with a hobby where the end result (privelages) coincides with personal development (learning)? You see, I do not believe as you do that being proud of such things is farcical. I also do not believe there is any harm in setting (reasonably/relatively) high standards in a non-professional endeavor. The "achievement" is so much more valued when the road to it is a challenge, however small.
I don't really buy this. I taught a HR class a few years ago, about 10 students from various walks of life, none professional radio people, or even remotely involved in electronics. That was 1 day a week, for 10 weeks, 3 hours or less each session. 80% of them passed the license test, but only about half of them remained active in the hobby.

There was a total investment of time of 30 hours for these people, because I'm pretty sure that none of them did anything outside of the class. They did it because they had to do it to get a license, not because they felt it was some sort of personal achievement. They would have been just as happy if they only had to fill out a form and send it in with $15.

Quote[/b] ]
I know many a friend whose greatest life moments are but distant memories for reflection. Catching the winning pass in a high school football game. Making an "A" on a single mid-term final in a class they almost failed. Landing a decent paying job after months of interviews and being turned down wherever they went.

I recently saw a poignant movie called "The Pursuit of Happyness" starring Will Smith. It was about a medical equipment door-to-door salesman who had a dream of getting a job on Wall Street. His life hit rock bottom and his sense of self worth deteriorated because of the obstacles in his life. But he stuck with it, studied and learned, pushed himself through an apprenticeship, and eventually went on to become a major player on Wall Street by founding a reknowned brokerage firm. This was a true story.
I saw the movie. But it has no correlation here. He would have been happier, and better off, if there had been fewer challenges, and they had paid him during the internship.

If we wanted HR testing to be challenging, we would make the code test 30wpm and the written test ala college EE testing. Also, there would be a lab involved in constructing and designing a ham radio.

Quote[/b] ]
Believe it or not, there are people in this world whose sense of self worth hinges on achievements that some of us would consider minor. And in some cases the simple confidence boost of such minor achievement is a spring board to bigger and better things. As our PC society continues to water down the significance of minor achievements such as "An Extra Class radio license", it only leaves the "haves" in this world with anything to take pride in.

I for one don't like this.

It is only watered down in your own mind. It is actually this attitude that belittles the new hams. "You're not a real extra, you're a watered down extra" seems to be what you are saying. I see no difference in an extra today and an extra from 1969. Why? Because that title is conveyed by the government, not by other hams. A person shouldn't be looked down on who has done all that is required of them, no matter how much or how little it is.

Joe

W0BKR

08-30-2007, 04:55 PM

I know that the folks that were licensed before me had a harder testing criteria then I, and I had a harder one then those today. Does that mean anything to me, not really from a licensing perspective.

However, where I do see concern in the experience base, or knowledge base is dwindling IMHO.

I may be wrong and often times are.

I do think however, that current equipment precludes anyone from really having to have a need to know the technical aspsects to some degree because of the high level of complexity. I doubt 99% of the ops out there can work on SMT (Surface Mount Technology) type radios, could remove an ASIC (Application Specific IC), reprogram firm ware, etc.

Let's face it. Our equipment has surpassed our ability to have "hands on with it".

I do believe we need to retain technical understanding(s) of basic concepts and technology, but to the level those had to in the 1960s and 1970's scale, no.

Just my 2 cents worth.

AG3Y

08-30-2007, 04:55 PM

Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Aug. 30 2007,13:25)]Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Aug. 30 2007,09:02)]Obtaining a ham ticket is an achievment no matter how little you think of it. That is the starting point for the ham: he's qualified himself to participate in the hobby. He is then measured from that starting point according to how he uses his hobby.
I think it's an achievement, but a petty one. Certainly anything that can be learned in an hour a day for 3 or 4 weeks or less is not a major accomplishment. And thats all it takes to get a ham license. Perhaps in past years the amount of time required for study was longer, but is was never anything that a bright teenager could not achieve.

My point is that most hobbies do not have this "entrance point" mentality, at least in regards to some petty "test". That is the reason the tests are becoming easier and deal less with technical issues. They simply aren't needed for the hobby. People will learn it if they need to.

Why does anyone need to be "measured" in a hobby endeavor? Seems to me, the measurements will be coming from one's peers, or from oneself. Most other hobbies have no such measurement "requirements", either pre or post initiation. Some hobbies have internal organizations that may distribute awards or proficiency plaques, etc, but they are not needed to participate or even excel.

Joe
Joe, your post points out where the "Failure" of the incentive licensing program, and more exactly the FCC testing system actually lies.

It has been said time and time again, but bears repeating, that a question pool, WITH PUBLISHED ANSWERS, is NOT the way that the testing and licensing process should be undertaken. THAT is the FAILURE !

You can see the results of this failure over and over again here on QRZ.COM, where a person holding the current Amateur Extra Class license comes on and asks, ( yup you know what I'm going to say ) "how do I build a dipole ? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif " They honestly don't have a clue, but they have passed all the present requirements to be an Amateur Extra Class ! That is truely SAD !

The Extra Class ticket should NOT be an entry-level license, but for many people, it actually IS. These people, who obviously have a great ability to memorize tons of information without actually understanding it, should NOT be at the "top of the heap" of ham radio, but unfortunately for them and for the rest of us, they ARE !

"No more amateur radio worlds to conquer" and they don't even know how to BEGIN their avocation from a practical standpoint.

When I became an Extra, there was a requirement that a person be licensed for at least 1 year before even being elegible to take that level of test. Some time earlier, I understand that the time requirement was 2 years! During that time, you were supposed to build dipoles, brush up your code speed, learn about propagation, etc. etc. Then you had a fairly good idea of what the whole game was all about before you even attempted to reach those lofty heights of hamdom !

No Extra worth the name would have had to ask someone else "how do I build a dipole"

This is not to "dis" the current crop of hams. They are only doing what is required of them at this point in history. But there HAS been a failure in the system, and it goes far beyond the Incentive Licensing Program.

73, Jim

K7JEM

08-30-2007, 05:05 PM

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 30 2007,09:27)]A "petty" achievement eh? Words are knives, Joe.
That is what it is. Petty. By anyone's standard.

More difficult that going grocery shopping. Less of an achievement than graduating eighth grade.

More of an achievement than filling your tank with gas. Less of an achievement than re-roofing your house.

Again we are talking about the time and effort to learn material for the test, not HR itself.

Joe

KI4NGN

08-30-2007, 05:05 PM

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Aug. 30 2007,09:39)]Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Aug. 30 2007,08:01)]Marty, I used that sentence to express your opinion, not mine, I should have been clearer.

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

Quote[/b] ]My point was that there are many areas where you can't just get out there and show what you can do by just doing it. You won't get to the starting point until you have somehow proven that you belong there.

But of those 'many areas', very few are hobbies. #You don't have to prove that you 'belong' in order to participate in a hobby. with very few exceptions. and of the exceptions, amateur radio is the only one where that proof takes the form of a test unrelated to actual practice.

Quote[/b] ]It's rather narrow-minded of you to exclaim that the tests have never been difficult without qualifying that they have never been difficult for you.

I did qualify in which way they weren't difficult: in contrast to a formal education in electronics.
100% of the RF spectrum is regulated by the federal government, which is what makes it very different from most hobbies.

Many people enjoy making wine for a hobby, there is a limit on how much can be made in a certain period of time, and what can be done with it.

Many people enjoy firearms for a hobby. Certainly the laws for ownership and use vary, but sitting on top of it all is the federal government.

Many people enjoy flying for a hobby. That is certainly federally regulated.

The point is that very few hobbies have some degree of federal authority that regulates them.

You say that the proof takes the form of a test that is unrelated to actual practice in ham radio. Well, the rules and regs certainly apply to practice, as I'm sure you know, but you don't think that the technical part does. There's where we part ways, and this is all steering towards an old discussion that I just don't feel like repeating.

73,

Mike

KE5FRF

08-30-2007, 05:11 PM

Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Aug. 30 2007,12:05)]Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 30 2007,09:27)]A "petty" achievement eh? Words are knives, Joe.
That is what it is. Petty. By anyone's standard.

More difficult that going grocery shopping. Less of an achievement than graduating eighth grade.

More of an achievement than filling your tank with gas. Less of an achievement than re-roofing your house.

Again we are talking about the time and effort to learn material for the test, not HR itself.

Joe
Man, you can be a real pompous ....nevermind.

K7JEM

08-30-2007, 05:15 PM

Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ Aug. 30 2007,09:55)]The Extra Class ticket should NOT be an entry-level license, but for many people, it actually IS. These people, who obviously have a great ability to memorize tons of information without actually understanding it, should NOT be at the "top of the heap" of ham radio, but unfortunately for them and for the rest of us, they ARE !

"No more amateur radio worlds to conquer" and they don't even know how to BEGIN their avocation from a practical standpoint.

When I became an Extra, there was a requirement that a person be licensed for at least 1 year before even being elegible to take that level of test. Some time earlier, I understand that the time requirement was 2 years! During that time, you were supposed to build dipoles, brush up your code speed, learn about propagation, etc. etc. Then you had a fairly good idea of what the whole game was all about before you even attempted to reach those lofty heights of hamdom !

No Extra worth the name would have had to ask someone else "how do I build a dipole"

This is not to "dis" the current crop of hams. They are only doing what is required of them at this point in history. But there HAS been a failure in the system, and it goes far beyond the Incentive Licensing Program.

73, Jim
This is the problem. Too many people think that a "test" or "level" is something to conquer. It isn't. A person could know how to build a dipole without ever being a ham. A ham could be an extra, and not know how to do it (always could).

Being a ham has nothing whatsoever to do with the test. The test is just some sort of minimum standard, and only tests for things that are actually on that specific test, nothing more. There is no test of building a dipole. There is no operational requirement. There is little technical stuff that is actually tested for.

The problem is those hams who think that once a person has reached "extra", that there are no further HR hills to climb. In reality, the test is only the threshold. All HR challenges come after the test, and are set and achieved by the individual.

Joe

K7JEM

08-30-2007, 05:24 PM

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 30 2007,10:11)]Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Aug. 30 2007,12:05)]Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 30 2007,09:27)]A "petty" achievement eh? Words are knives, Joe.
That is what it is. Petty. By anyone's standard.

More difficult that going grocery shopping. Less of an achievement than graduating eighth grade.

More of an achievement than filling your tank with gas. Less of an achievement than re-roofing your house.

Again we are talking about the time and effort to learn material for the test, not HR itself.

Joe
Man, you can be a real pompous ....nevermind.
Heath, I'm just putting it in perspective. Why do all these hams go around moaning and complaining about how easy the test is today, vs how difficult it was when they took if?

The truth is, it was never particularly hard, but is easier today. It has always been a petty achievement, certainly anyone who thinks differently needs to examine priorities.

Back in the 60's, thousands of 11-16 year olds got their novice, then upgraded to general. It wasn't very hard. Many scout troops did it as a part of a merit badge.

An Eagle scout is not a petty achievement. First Class scout probably is, but it requires more time and effort than getting a HR license.

Joe

AE6IP

08-30-2007, 05:25 PM

Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Aug. 30 2007,09:05)]100% of the RF spectrum is regulated by the federal government, which is what makes it very different from most hobbies.
and R/C aircraft use spectrum without a test of any sort.

and so forth.

There should be only one 'starting point' in amateur radio and it should be 'do you know the regulations'?

KI4NGN

08-30-2007, 05:36 PM

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Aug. 30 2007,10:25)]Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Aug. 30 2007,09:05)]100% of the RF spectrum is regulated by the federal government, which is what makes it very different from most hobbies.
and R/C aircraft use spectrum without a test of any sort.

and so forth.

There should be only one 'starting point' in amateur radio and it should be 'do you know the regulations'?
You leave out the purpose of the RF allocations. The use of RF for R/C is a very narrowly defined use of just a few frequencies.

Ham radio is much broader in both spectrum and use.

This is pointess.

73,

Mike

K7JEM

08-30-2007, 05:39 PM

Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Aug. 30 2007,10:05)]Many people enjoy making wine for a hobby, there is a limit on how much can be made in a certain period of time, and what can be done with it.

Many people enjoy firearms for a hobby. Certainly the laws for ownership and use vary, but sitting on top of it all is the federal government.

Many people enjoy flying for a hobby. That is certainly federally regulated.

The point is that very few hobbies have some degree of federal authority that regulates them.

You say that the proof takes the form of a test that is unrelated to actual practice in ham radio. Well, the rules and regs certainly apply to practice, as I'm sure you know, but you don't think that the technical part does. There's where we part ways, and this is all steering towards an old discussion that I just don't feel like repeating.

73,

Mike
You mention several hobbies that are regulated. In truth, probably most hobbies are regulated in some way.

But you don't have to take a test and get a federal license to make wine or beer. Or to fly RC planes or robots. Or buy a gun or knife.

Or ski or backpack or ride a dirt bike, or almost any other hobby.

Airplanes and cars as hobbies are different things, and do require a license, and a test. But there is a public safety issue related to these things.

Joe

KI4NGN

08-30-2007, 05:44 PM

Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Aug. 30 2007,10:24)]Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 30 2007,10:11)]Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Aug. 30 2007,12:05)]Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 30 2007,09:27)]A "petty" achievement eh? Words are knives, Joe.
That is what it is. Petty. By anyone's standard.

More difficult that going grocery shopping. Less of an achievement than graduating eighth grade.

More of an achievement than filling your tank with gas. Less of an achievement than re-roofing your house.

Again we are talking about the time and effort to learn material for the test, not HR itself.

Joe
Man, you can be a real pompous ....nevermind.
Heath, I'm just putting it in perspective. Why do all these hams go around moaning and complaining about how easy the test is today, vs how difficult it was when they took if?

The truth is, it was never particularly hard, but is easier today. It has always been a petty achievement, certainly anyone who thinks differently needs to examine priorities.

Back in the 60's, thousands of 11-16 year olds got their novice, then upgraded to general. It wasn't very hard. Many scout troops did it as a part of a merit badge.

An Eagle scout is not a petty achievement. First Class scout probably is, but it requires more time and effort than getting a HR license.

Joe
Joe, I had typed a reply, trying more reason, etc, etc, and then I realized that it's pointless.

Something is easy for you, therefore it must be easy for everyone, therefore the achievment is of no consequence.

That's an attitude that I just can't identify with, don't understand, perceive as very self-centered, and realize there's no point in continuing the discussion.

73,

Mike

ky5u

08-30-2007, 05:51 PM

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 30 2007,10:11)]Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Aug. 30 2007,12:05)]Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 30 2007,09:27)]A "petty" achievement eh? Words are knives, Joe.
That is what it is. Petty. By anyone's standard.

More difficult that going grocery shopping. Less of an achievement than graduating eighth grade.

More of an achievement than filling your tank with gas. Less of an achievement than re-roofing your house.

Again we are talking about the time and effort to learn material for the test, not HR itself.

Joe
Man, you can be a real pompous ....nevermind.
I can't help but notice that while JEM would take us to task for pointing out lack of motivation and laziness of a few amateurs related to changing test requirements when they can't cut it, he finds no problem belittling the accomplishment of all amateurs who ever passed a test.

Joe, If the tests are no big accomplishment, then why all the whining about changing them for a few lazy upgrades? ROFL!

K0RGR

08-30-2007, 05:58 PM

I think Incentive Licensing was a misguided attempt to upgrade the technical knowledge of hams, in general. I don't regard it a failure. In my case, I was 'incented' to actually learn something on the way to Extra. This led to my current career. I suspect there are thousands of others with the same experience.

My biggest problem with it is the number of good hams who left the hobby, and many potential hams who didn't come into the hobby. There was a period of great uncertainty, when it looked like the Generals were going to be severely damaged by this, and this had long-lasting effects.

There are lots of things I object to, however. I'd have preferred not to see subbands - but granting different power levels would relate to the level of technical difficulty in the exams - maybe 200 watts for Generals and full power for Extras.

I think ARRL learned their lesson from this - they avoid any proposal that involves taking away privileges from anybody, and sometimes this leads to strange proposals.

But, this was a real attempt by ARRL to correct the problems that so many people complain about incessantly here! Sometimes, you can't win for losing!

KE5FRF

08-30-2007, 06:04 PM

Joe, the point is that you make concise statements when you say that the brunt of achievement comes AFTER the license not before. Certainly that is true today but it wasn't AS true in years gone by. Am I not correct that the old system required a person to be a Novice initially and within 2 years they had to upgrade or they lost it altogether? Isn't it also true that one had to hold an General (or was it Advanced) license for at least a year before upgrading to Extra? I'm not 100% clear on the specifics but I do know there was a step approach at one time.

Joe, the simple fact of the matter is that this is not a black and white subject. As usual you nor I, nor Jim, Ed, Marty, Bob, Mike, or anyone else is right or wrong. For many people getting a ham license is no more significant than replacing a window pane. For others it is a landmark of sorts in their lives.

I did not learn about electronics as a ham. I learned electronics theory over the course of years of combined self study and formal classroom training. Only 12 years ago I barely knew the difference between a diode and a transistor...In fact I only knew the physical difference and not how they functioned. As I read books and recieved training, each little tidbit of understanding became a revelation. Even to this day I feel a sense of pride when I look at a schematic and can figure out how this circuit or that works.

I submit that if every amateur thought of this hobby as a wonderful opportunity to learn, then the magnitude of accomplishment would not be so low as you describe. Test taking aside, if the AMATEUR who seeks to upgrade his license to Extra took a serious approach in seeing the "journey" as every bit as important as "the destination", then your assessment would not be true. If each prospective upgrade read the ARRL license manual for Extra, learned about, for instance, Smith charts, then went to the bookstore and bought Kraus's "Antennas" and read some more...if he made a commitment to fully understanding it both matehmatically and functionally, then I contend that you would be WRONG in saying there is no accomplishment. However, as it stands today the attitude that you seem to endorse is "Just read the book, do what you can to pass the test, then have fun". Ok, that in itself isn't bad. Nope. But you see, the vast majority never even give themselves a real opportunity to learn anything. Once that Extra license is hanging on the wall, what real motivation is there to investigate these concepts a little further? In our end-result oriented world, no much at all. And unfortunately, this is where we are.

Look, I try not to use myself as an example, and I try not to brag. But I can't help it in this case. I am far from being an expert on many subjects other than maybe Morse Code operation in which I've advanced further than many. But I do consider myself proficient and reasonably knowledgeable about wire antennas, basic electronics, propogation phenomenon, some radio history, and a few other topics. I try to share what I know on the Q n A forum every day with new hams or less technical hams. I think I do a good job and have stood out in some respects. This is my little way of giving back to the hobby. There is a reason that I am able to do this. It's because I purchase books and read them. I especially did a lot of reading the first year while I was studying and upgrading my license. Man, I would really enjoy it if there were other benchmarks of achievement that I could pursue. Actually, there are but only I know what they are and only I recognize them when I do. And in some ways, I have no way to really gauge those achievements because I have no standard by which to score them. I'm a free-agent now so to speak. But with tests, meaningful tests, I am able to quantify my achievements not only for myself but also to my peers who may look to me as a model or a mentor.

I see nothing wrong with this kind of system. I know in the military every achievement is met with an award, a certificate, or a badge of merit. The military has been doing it that way for hundreds of years and there has always been a strong comradere amongst soldiers. Just as with AR, it is but a small achievement to (for instance) promote from Corporal to Sergeant...but for the soldier this is a threshold that is crossed and a source of great pride and excitement. I can relate because I lived in that world. Nobody ever said that becoming a "Sergeant" is the end or the fruition. Indeed, it is just a step in a journey, but it is a BENCHMARK that most soldiers never forget.

I just don't understand how you don't get this or appreciate such a system.

K7JEM

08-30-2007, 06:09 PM

Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Aug. 30 2007,10:44)]Something is easy for you, therefore it must be easy for everyone, therefore the achievment is of no consequence.

That's an attitude that I just can't identify with, don't understand, perceive as very self-centered, and realize there's no point in continuing the discussion.

73,

Mike
I never said it was of no consequence. I said it was a petty achievement in life, compared to all the other things we are expected to achieve.

A HR test is just no big deal in the whole perspective of things. Not as important as learning to talk, or learning spelling or mathematics. Not as important as graduating Jr. High.

It depends on your definition of "petty" I suppose. But something that requires 30 hours of your time IN YOUR WHOLE LIFETIME is not a major achievement. And most people can do it in that amount of time. Even if it took three times that long, in my reasoning, it is still not a major thing.

Joe

AE6IP

08-30-2007, 06:19 PM

Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Aug. 30 2007,09:36)]Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Aug. 30 2007,10:25)]Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Aug. 30 2007,09:05)]100% of the RF spectrum is regulated by the federal government, which is what makes it very different from most hobbies.
and R/C aircraft use spectrum without a test of any sort.

and so forth.

There should be only one 'starting point' in amateur radio and it should be 'do you know the regulations'?
You leave out the purpose of the RF allocations. The use of RF for R/C is a very narrowly defined use of just a few frequencies.

Ham radio is much broader in both spectrum and use.

This is pointess.

73,

Mike
and nothing in that breadth justifies a technical test.

KE5FRF

08-30-2007, 06:25 PM

Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Aug. 30 2007,13:09)]Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Aug. 30 2007,10:44)]Something is easy for you, therefore it must be easy for everyone, therefore the achievment is of no consequence.

That's an attitude that I just can't identify with, don't understand, perceive as very self-centered, and realize there's no point in continuing the discussion.

73,

Mike
I never said it was of no consequence. I said it was a petty achievement in life, compared to all the other things we are expected to achieve.

A HR test is just no big deal in the whole perspective of things. Not as important as learning to talk, or learning spelling or mathematics. Not as important as graduating Jr. High.

It depends on your definition of "petty" I suppose. But something that requires 30 hours of your time IN YOUR WHOLE LIFETIME is not a major achievement. And most people can do it in that amount of time. Even if it took three times that long, in my reasoning, it is still not a major thing.

Joe
Joe.

This is so wrong it hurts.

In college, a final exam takes an hour or so to complete. An entire semester's worth of learning bundled into one package, one test, that is usually a make or break percentage of the entire grade for the year.

For some students, this will be a skin of the teeth thing. They will sleep, doodle, and muddle their way through the class without learning a thing. They will spend a couple of nights before the big test cramming just to pull off a C for the semester.

Other students will be interested, attentive to the instructor, studious in class, punctual with homework, and spend just as much time before the final cramming...soaking up every extra bit of knowledge they can, resulting in an A+ for the semester.

The test is the same for all...an hour long event, 50 M.C. questions and an essay. The result is the same...pass and move on or flunk and drop out.

The way you paint it, the test is but trivial, a minutia, a petty milestone soon forgotten.

For the C student who goes on to sell car insurance, it is and forever will be.

For the A+ student who graduates with honors and goes on to a successful career, each learning experience will be valued and drawn upon in later life experiences.

The same is true for ham radio licensing. It is but a simple test...50 M.C questions for the Extra that takes about a half hour to complete if you know your stuff and double check your work.

For the amateur who memorizes the question pool a few days before, the result is the same. An Extra license hanging on the wall.

For the amateur who devotes a month to in depth learning and understanding, the result is the same. An Extra license hanging on the wall.

Except when the two get back home and set up their station. The question pool memorizer has to get on QRZ and ask the other guy how many feet of coax will give him a good "SWR's", while the motivated learner posts that coax length is only relevant when it is long and lossy and that there is no such thing as SWR(s).

That is the difference.

N2RJ

08-30-2007, 06:32 PM

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Aug. 30 2007,12:25)]Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Aug. 30 2007,09:05)]100% of the RF spectrum is regulated by the federal government, which is what makes it very different from most hobbies.
and R/C aircraft use spectrum without a test of any sort.
Low power, short antennas, FCC certified equipment and not causing significant interference to anything.

Try again.

K7JEM

08-30-2007, 06:37 PM

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 30 2007,11:04)]I did not learn about electronics as a ham. I learned electronics theory over the course of years of combined self study and formal classroom training. Only 12 years ago I barely knew the difference between a diode and a transistor...In fact I only knew the physical difference and not how they functioned. As I read books and recieved training, each little tidbit of understanding became a revelation. Even to this day I feel a sense of pride when I look at a schematic and can figure out how this circuit or that works. Thats great! But it really has nothing to do with the test. You learned what you did because you had a personal desire to learn that stuff, not because some test was requiring it.
Quote[/b] ]
I submit that if every amateur thought of this hobby as a wonderful opportunity to learn, then the magnitude of accomplishment would not be so low as you describe. Test taking aside, if the AMATEUR who seeks to upgrade his license to Extra took a serious approach in seeing the "journey" as every bit as important as "the destination", then your assessment would not be true.
But this makes it sound as if the extra ticket is the "destination" and the learning part is the journey. Reality is, that your personal involvement in HR defines your own "journey" and "destination". No two of us are alike in this hobby, we all travel at different speeds, and sometimes on different paths. Your forte is in CW. I have no interest in that. I do a lot of work with UHF and VHF repeaters. You may have no interest in that. Neither one of us is a lesser ham because of what we have chosen to do, we are just different. Your experience probably would not qualify you to do the things in HR that I do, and my experience won't qualify me to do the things that you excel at.

Quote[/b] ] If each prospective upgrade read the ARRL license manual for Extra, learned about, for instance, Smith charts, then went to the bookstore and bought Kraus's "Antennas" and read some more...if he made a commitment to fully understanding it both matehmatically and functionally, then I contend that you would be WRONG in saying there is no accomplishment. However, as it stands today the attitude that you seem to endorse is "Just read the book, do what you can to pass the test, then have fun". Ok, that in itself isn't bad. Nope. But you see, the vast majority never even give themselves a real opportunity to learn anything. Once that Extra license is hanging on the wall, what real motivation is there to investigate these concepts a little further? In our end-result oriented world, no much at all. And unfortunately, this is where we are.

But if a person is ONLY learning enough to pass the test, and has no real interest in these things, then it doesn't matter if he "learns" them or not. He will soon forget them, since they are not required in 99% of HR endeavors.
Quote[/b] ]
Look, I try not to use myself as an example, and I try not to brag. But I can't help it in this case. I am far from being an expert on many subjects other than maybe Morse Code operation in which I've advanced further than many. But I do consider myself proficient and reasonably knowledgeable about wire antennas, basic electronics, propogation phenomenon, some radio history, and a few other topics. I try to share what I know on the Q n A forum every day with new hams or less technical hams. I think I do a good job and have stood out in some respects. This is my little way of giving back to the hobby. There is a reason that I am able to do this. It's because I purchase books and read them. I especially did a lot of reading the first year while I was studying and upgrading my license. Man, I would really enjoy it if there were other benchmarks of achievement that I could pursue. Actually, there are but only I know what they are and only I recognize them when I do. And in some ways, I have no way to really gauge those achievements because I have no standard by which to score them. I'm a free-agent now so to speak. But with tests, meaningful tests, I am able to quantify my achievements not only for myself but also to my peers who may look to me as a model or a mentor.
But it is hard to establish benchmarks, or even reasons for mandatory testing, in a hobby. You can establish these yourself. If you want to learn more, learn more. Take a class, or self learn these things. Buy a kit, build an antenna, read about antenna theory or transistor theory.

Quote[/b] ]
I see nothing wrong with this kind of system. I know in the military every achievement is met with an award, a certificate, or a badge of merit. The military has been doing it that way for hundreds of years and there has always been a strong comradere amongst soldiers. Just as with AR, it is but a small achievement to (for instanc