NEW SEMI-AMATEUR RADIO SERVICE

[W5HTW]

I think there are two issues in the direction amateur radio is taking, a direction I see as a serious and destructive mistake, and these two issues have to be separated in order to be resolved.

The first is digital mode radio. If there are restrictions on automatic stations, interference, and bandwidth, then facing the fact that digital modes are here to stay isn't difficult, or even unpleasant. I happen to prefer the legacy modes, but that doesn't mean digital radio should not be permitted. It just has to allow for legacy modes, as well as to allow more than a couple of digital signals per band. Some of this broadband stuff has zero place on the ham bands.

The other issue is linked with emcom. It is a separate issue from the above, or it should be, and it needs to be addressed separately. There is no place at all for encryption on the amateur radio frequencies. And it is the emcom supporters who feel it is necessary. They believe they should be handling highly restricted public safety traffic, and that just isn't true.

Either of these issues has the potential to turn amateur radio into professional radio, with its attendant restrictions. Combined, they are a real threat. But I believe, if we concentrated on getting the emcom types off the ham bands and into a service of their own, we then make the digital modes available for actual amateur radio use, without fear of corrupting the service into some sort of "government radio."

I have become a strong advocate of a new radio service that is NOT amateur radio, but that is dedicated to volunteer communicators who specialize in emergency communications support. I think such a service is sorely needed for several reasons.

Today we have too many who have entered amateur radio solely to perform emergency communications. That is NOT what this hobby/service is about. It has a much broader scope than that.

We also have too many who are being pressured to get amateur radio licenses as a part of their actual employment. This makes these licenses professional licenses, not amateur, and this is very bad news for the amateur radio community. In this group we are finding police officers, medical personnel, hospitals, county and city communications centers, and the like, that are obtaining amateur radio licenses to conduct business, even if that business is public safety. We are NOT Public Safety Radio.

Amateur radio is not "government radio." We are not a government agency. We are not a law enforcement agency or a branch of Homeland Security.

We are losing our identity. We need to get a crash course going to educate ourselves, and those who see us as some extension of a federal agency, to define amateur radio. It is being badly corrupted, both in the interest of federal grant money and in the interest of simply adding numbers to our license rolls.

The prerequisite of entering amateur radio, the primary prerrequisiste, should be an interest in amateur radio. It should not be solely emcom, and it should never be quasi law enforcement, or job enhancement. A ham license should NEVER be a 'job requirement.'


I am not an activist. I do not have the expertise to write and present a proposal to the FCC seeking to establish such a service. I'm not even sure the FCC is where such a proposal should go. Perhaps it should go to congress.

I would think someone who has more experience in the legal issues of commercial (not amateur) radio would be suited to develop, write and push, such a proposal, in the proper place and with the proper language.

If we can split off the emcomers from the real amateur radio, much of this situation goes away. Not all of it, no, but it gives the emergency comm types a place to not only play, but to do valuable work, perform an occasionally needed real service, and to practice for such a time.

There is talk of a non-amateur band of 148-150 mhz for this kind of service. Such a service could also be added in the areas of existing high-VHF tv channels (Channel 7 to 13). Ther eis room for this type of service.

We really need to get the emcomers out of amateur radio before they manage to turn it into public safety radio. It could be that this new service could be retained as a spin-off of amateur radio, but I think a new type of operator's license should be involved. The service could be the "Volunteer Radio Service" or something to that effect, using type approved radio equipment, and standardized procedures. A ham license could indeed be a qualifying license to operate in this service, but operating in that service would not automatically grant amateur radio privileges. Something on the order of the Civil Air Patrol radio service. Perhaps the Civil Radio Service?

Even in a separate service, perhaps a "subsidiary," if you will, of amateur radio, the ARRL could keep its fingers in the pie.

I would be happy to submit guidelines to anyone who is interested in organizing a movement in that direction. I simply lack the expertise to actually write the proposal, and the legal knowledge to know where to submit it!

We really need to save ham radio. I fear it is already too late, but we may stand a chance. Anyone with positive or at least logical comments, on this concept can email me at my W5HTW email address (see my listing on QRZ) or perhaps create a thread specifically geared toward that goal. We should get rid of the rhetoric, and actually do something constructive, but frankly, I don't know how to start.

Thoughts?

Ed

[kb2vxa]

Hi Ed and all,

Basically I agree on both points but frankly I too am at a loss to propose a resolution to the second on which I shall focus, the first is easy.

Emcomm has got to be the worst fiasco of all time, the reasons are pretty obvious, there is no need for it. The need for Amateurs participating in emergency services has diminished to the point where we are no longer participating so we've moved into the health and welfare aspect of it almost entirely.

OK, that's just fine, our technical services that restore emergency communications are still needed and have been used often enough. We still are a reserve pool of technical experts. Well, some may disagree but we've heard enough of their sour grapes all along so SHUT UP!

"There is talk of a non-amateur band of 148-150 mhz for this kind of service."

It already exists and is little used so perhaps a little "refarming" is in order. The trouble is the repeaters I've listened to sound much the same as the HF nets, no traffic, nothing to do so the net closes and chit-chat ensues until they get tired and go home. Likely the same would be heard on the new OEM repeaters as it is on those on the 2M band.

Hmmm, just could be we really don't need spectrum or this "service" at all. One good thing could come out of it though, 11M could be reallocated to this service and I'm not talking about "the 40 channels" but the entire band that's been reallocated by force of RF.

We could take it back by force of arms if Riley and Associates were issued gun permits. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

OK, so I ended on a lighter note, the ball is in your court now. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[n0iu]

It is bad enough that the EMCOMM'ers are hijacking the "hobby" of amateur radio, but the comments of people like W4QVA John Scheuchenzuber that really worry me. He wrote a Correspondence piece that was published in the August 2007 edition of QST in which he talks about the beaten-to-death notion When All Else Fails. In it, he made the statement, "Amateur Radio may be a great hobby, but (as a new guy) see it differently."

May be a great hobby? May be?? Amateur radio IS a great hobby!

Its bad enough they are hijacking amateur radio, but to demean its value because it is only a "hobby" is too much! They talk as if those who use amateur radio for anything else but emergency communications is wasting their time.

Unfortunately, I am seeing more evidence of this from people who freely and openly admit they have no interest in amateur radio except to use it as the last bastion of hope for the survival of mankind as we know it.

Scott NØIU

[kb2vxa]

Hi again,

Scott, you just reinforced my "theory" that this movement is an effort to preserve the Amateur Radio SERVICE, it's service to the community at large and Amateur Exempt status. That may in itself be a good idea considering that in other countries like the UK it's classed as and treated as a hobby. Unfortunately they overlooked the law of unintentional consequences.

[ky5u]

60M is already channelized. Let them have it for 2.6 khz wideband data. Probably could give them 12 meters too. No data applications outside the automatic subbands larger than 500Hz.

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Aug. 29 2007,11:10)]60M is already channelized. #Let them have it for 2.6 khz wideband data. #Probably could give them 12 meters too. No data applications outside the automatic subbands larger than 500Hz.
Agree on all points.

[W4INF]

Quote[/b] (n0iu @ Aug. 29 2007,07:09)]It is bad enough that the EMCOMM'ers are hijacking the "hobby" of amateur radio[snip]
They are? I never had one interfere with my QSO, whether it be SSB, PSK or CW.

Ill keep my eye out for them pesky EMCOMMers!!

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ Aug. 29 2007,06:42)]I think there are two issues in the direction amateur radio is taking, a direction I see as a serious and destructive mistake, and these two issues have to be separated in order to be resolved.

The first is digital mode radio. If there are restrictions on automatic stations, interference, and bandwidth, then facing the fact that digital modes are here to stay isn't difficult, or even unpleasant. I happen to prefer the legacy modes, but that doesn't mean digital radio should not be permitted. It just has to allow for legacy modes, as well as to allow more than a couple of digital signals per band. Some of this broadband stuff has zero place on the ham bands.

The other issue is linked with emcom. It is a separate issue from the above, or it should be, and it needs to be addressed separately. There is no place at all for encryption on the amateur radio frequencies. And it is the emcom supporters who feel it is necessary. They believe they should be handling highly restricted public safety traffic, and that just isn't true.

Either of these issues has the potential to turn amateur radio into professional radio, with its attendant restrictions. Combined, they are a real threat. But I believe, if we concentrated on getting the emcom types off the ham bands and into a service of their own, we then make the digital modes available for actual amateur radio use, without fear of corrupting the service into some sort of "government radio."

I have become a strong advocate of a new radio service that is NOT amateur radio, but that is dedicated to volunteer communicators who specialize in emergency communications support. I think such a service is sorely needed for several reasons.

Today we have too many who have entered amateur radio solely to perform emergency communications. That is NOT what this hobby/service is about. It has a much broader scope than that.

We also have too many who are being pressured to get amateur radio licenses as a part of their actual employment. This makes these licenses professional licenses, not amateur, and this is very bad news for the amateur radio community. In this group we are finding police officers, medical personnel, hospitals, county and city communications centers, and the like, that are obtaining amateur radio licenses to conduct business, even if that business is public safety. We are NOT Public Safety Radio.

Amateur radio is not "government radio." We are not a government agency. We are not a law enforcement agency or a branch of Homeland Security.

We are losing our identity. We need to get a crash course going to educate ourselves, and those who see us as some extension of a federal agency, to define amateur radio. It is being badly corrupted, both in the interest of federal grant money and in the interest of simply adding numbers to our license rolls.

The prerequisite of entering amateur radio, the primary prerrequisiste, should be an interest in amateur radio. It should not be solely emcom, and it should never be quasi law enforcement, or job enhancement. A ham license should NEVER be a 'job requirement.'


I am not an activist. I do not have the expertise to write and present a proposal to the FCC seeking to establish such a service. I'm not even sure the FCC is where such a proposal should go. Perhaps it should go to congress.

I would think someone who has more experience in the legal issues of commercial (not amateur) radio would be suited to develop, write and push, such a proposal, in the proper place and with the proper language.

If we can split off the emcomers from the real amateur radio, much of this situation goes away. Not all of it, no, but it gives the emergency comm types a place to not only play, but to do valuable work, perform an occasionally needed real service, and to practice for such a time.

There is talk of a non-amateur band of 148-150 mhz for this kind of service. Such a service could also be added in the areas of existing high-VHF tv channels (Channel 7 to 13). Ther eis room for this type of service.

We really need to get the emcomers out of amateur radio before they manage to turn it into public safety radio. It could be that this new service could be retained as a spin-off of amateur radio, but I think a new type of operator's license should be involved. The service could be the "Volunteer Radio Service" or something to that effect, using type approved radio equipment, and standardized procedures. A ham license could indeed be a qualifying license to operate in this service, but operating in that service would not automatically grant amateur radio privileges. Something on the order of the Civil Air Patrol radio service. Perhaps the Civil Radio Service?

Even in a separate service, perhaps a "subsidiary," if you will, of amateur radio, the ARRL could keep its fingers in the pie.

I would be happy to submit guidelines to anyone who is interested in organizing a movement in that direction. I simply lack the expertise to actually write the proposal, and the legal knowledge to know where to submit it!

We really need to save ham radio. I fear it is already too late, but we may stand a chance. Anyone with positive or at least logical comments, on this concept can email me at my W5HTW email address (see my listing on QRZ) or perhaps create a thread specifically geared toward that goal. We should get rid of the rhetoric, and actually do something constructive, but frankly, I don't know how to start.

Thoughts?

Ed
YOW !

Ed I usually agree with you 110% (maybe 1000%) most of the time; your vision and eloquency are uncanny.

But (IMHO) it's time for what you term "legacy" radio (meaning analogue voice, and a few other modes, I assume) to make way, and make provision for the digital modes, NOT for the "digital modes" to accept a token presence of the traditional (analogue) modes already in use.

I agree totally (if nor moreso) about the fallibility of the present "EMCOMM" rationale. Much of the (at least perceived) use/need for Amateur Radio is being portrayed as first-line communication, and that is not the case, rationalization, or even justification for Amateur Radio in a crisis or (God forbid) a true disaster. The EMCOMM program has been sold as a proactive service, when by all rights it should be a well-prepared, but re-active service. Be ready when called or needed; be READY if needed, andactually feel glad if you are NOT needed! (THAT may be the one, true point lacking in ALL the EMCOMM "stuff" put out by the various organizations: Know when your services are and are not needed! And be willing to accept that. AN ARES or RACES organization will get MUCH more respect if they stand by and make themselves known IF they are needed, than trying to mingle with first responders trying to get communications, and merely getting in the way of the real fisrt responders.

[W5HTW]

Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ Aug. 29 2007,11:08)]But (IMHO) it's time for what you term "legacy" radio (meaning analogue voice, and a few other modes, I assume) to make way, and make provision for the digital modes, NOT for the "digital modes" to accept a token presence of the traditional (analogue) modes already in use.
I really don't want to make this a "modes" discussion, as I am most interested in switching the EMCOM guys and gals to their own radio service. I want that because for the vast majority of the hard core EMCOMERS, they have zero interest in amateur radio, and never touch the radio unless they are responding to either a real or practice situation. That simply is not amateur radio.

But something is pretty evident regarding modes. I don't have figures to back this up so we'll make it one of those "off the cuff guesstimates." That is, that 90 percent of all new hams, and probably an equal number of all new HF upgrades, are moving to SSB. Their goal is to chat on 20 meters and work DX.

I don't begrudge them that. They have (without turning this into a dumbing down thread) "worked" for it. They are not, however, flocking to the available digital modes. A few, yes, but the majority, the moment they became eligible, grabbed the microphone.

That is why I say the legacy modes must be accomodated. I believe that somewhere down the line, perhaps in ten years, perhaps in twenty, what we term legacy modes today, will be all gone. But I do not think we have to pull a Japan, and suddenly switch everyone, at the crack of noon, to the right side of the road. The digital modes WILL become dominant. That is a given. But they are in no way dominant, or anywhere close to it, in 2007. Any ruling that suddenly moves digital modes into wide HF coverage will simply disenfranchise tens of thousands of hams. It may do it by regulation, or it may do it with interference, but either way, they will suddenly be excluded from amateur radio.

I did not know the 148-150 band was already in use. I'll have to see if I can hear anythng there. My goal would be to move the diehard "Emcom-ONLY" type, out of the ham band. As with the Civil Air Patrol, that does not preclude that person from also holding a ham license, and also operating amateur radio on amateur frequencies. But it does make it far easier for him/her to be an effective volunteer in a more organized method.

In addition, I would think, with the way some of the SW BC stations are moving entirely to the internet, and dropping their HF operations, that the NTIA could make available HF radio frequencies to support this new "Civil Radio Service" on HF. As already mentioned by someone, re-allocating the 60 meter channels to wide band data (encrypted if needed) would be a start. Those channels were begged for by the ARRL as "local emergency" for their justification, and they have yet to be used for training along those lines. Perhaps in a few areas, but mostly they are just more ragchew channels.

The service I envision would include VHF voice, and possibly VHF data repeaters, and would include HF SSB and data operations, with enough frequencies throughout the spectrum to accomodate varying propagation conditions. Similar to MARS in many ways, but the system I see would not require a ham license simply to select an HF voice channel and talk. As on FEMA and Red Cross and many other service HF channels now, including marine.

The HF spectrum is probably available, especially if this service did not become a new freeband but was tightly regulated.

Perhaps, in fact, such a proposal should by pass the FCC entirely, and be presented to the NTIA, or to Homeland Security.

My goal would be to return amateur radio to that pool of nerdy techs we once were, who like to play on the radio and who may, if we could remember anything beyond 'TU QSL BURO QRZ" we could once again "enhance international goodwill." Been a long time since we've done that!

I expect differing opinions, and strong ones from the pro-EMCOM folks, and that's fair. That is what "opinion" is all about. So far this thread seems civil. Thanks!!

Ed

[wz9o]

Emcomm tards and digital freaks!!

No wonder ham radio is in the crapper!!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[KB3LIX]

Quote[/b] (aa9ya @ Aug. 29 2007,18:25)]Emcomm tards and digital freaks!!

No wonder ham radio is in the crapper!!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
So much for "civility" !

[k0ews]

Ed, as usual, thanks for the dose of common sense. I don't witness a lot of the EMCOMM types in my experiences, but I have no doubt that they are there. What disturbs me is the near constant pounding from ARRL about "When All Else Fails." In my own opinion, the only reason they are doing this is to try to keep ham radio relevant. As bad as disasters are, the ARRL tries to make sure that they get their publicity in with each disaster. It happened after 9/11. It happened after the tsunami. It happened after Katrina. Seemingly with every disaster, ARRL has some story highlighting ham radio. It borders on exploitation. It's important to know that ham radio works in a disaster, but honestly, ham radio is just one of the many means that people communicate.
I'm glad that people join ham radio to volunteer their time to help the public. However, recruiting public at large because of our ability to help in a disaster is a bit misleading. It's one thing we CAN do, but not even close to describing the avocation that is ham radio.

I for one would be very interested to see statistics on exactly what percentage of active hams in the USA are also active in EMCOMMS, or have been in the last 5 years. I think the number is much lower than most people in the public would suspect.

[kd4sm]

The NC section monthly ARRL newsletter for August had this little tid bit in it talking about the need to do SET in September.

SIMULATED EMERGENCY TEST

It's not too early to begin planning your 2007 SET exercise. The national weekend is October 6-7, but your excercise can be held anytime before the end of the year. During September, the ARRL will be among dozens of organizations and agencies taking part in National Preparedness Month. "The Ready Campaign," produced by the Ad Council in partnership with the US Department of Homeland Security (DHS), is aimed at making citizen preparedness "a priority for every city, every neighborhood and every home" in the US. The ARRL encourages you to consider this year's Simulated Emergency Test and preparations for it as a demonstration of Amateur Radio's readiness and as an active participant in National Preparedness Month. One area of emphasis you might consider excercising this year is your ability to deploy resources quickly with little advanced notice. The ARRL's recent National Emergency Response Planning Committee empahsized the importance of this capability, stating "in the USA, we see a post-Katrina emphasis on speeding up the deployment of sophisticated communications systems after disasters so that governmental and non-governmental organizations can get to work quickly. As the emergency telecomm world as a whole speeds up its reaction time, so we hams must be better organized, more capable, and as quick as possible on the scene after our help is requested, if we are not to arrive after our window of usefulness has closed. Given ham radio's dependency on emergency communications as our reason to exist in this country, it would be suicidal to assume that what we have always been able to do, at the speed we have always been able to do it, will be just fine to maintain our relevance into the indefinite future."


The article doesn't say who said this, but I expect they are with the ARRL, either here in NC or in Newington. To me, this is a huge bunch of crap. If EMCOM is the only reason amateur radio exists in America, our hobby is doomed. A sad, sad statement, IMHO.

Shane

[wz9o]

The Emcomm cry…

“Here we come to save the day!!!”

But …in reality….is

“Here we come just to get in the way!!!”


http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[KU0DM]

Quote[/b] (aa9ya @ Aug. 29 2007,16:58)]The Emcomm cry…

“Here we come to save the day!!!”

But …in reality….is

“Here we come just to get in the way!!!”


http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Get in the way of who?
The ARRL?
From what I have heard they were no-where to be found during the flooding in WI and OH.
Those "pesky Emcommers" were the ones working.
During the flooding in KS and MO, the ARRL didn't do anything.
How about Greensburg? No ARRL.
So lately, those "pesky Emcommers" have been the only ones on scene.

just the 2 cents of a "pesky emcommer"

[k0ews]

Quote[/b] (KU0DM @ Aug. 29 2007,20:11)]Quote[/b] (aa9ya @ Aug. 29 2007,16:58)]The Emcomm cry…

“Here we come to save the day!!!”

But …in reality….is

“Here we come just to get in the way!!!”


http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Get in the way of who?
The ARRL?
From what I have heard they were no-where to be found during the flooding in WI and OH.
Those "pesky Emcommers" were the ones working.
During the flooding in KS and MO, the ARRL didn't do anything.
How about Greensburg? No ARRL.
So lately, those "pesky Emcommers" have been the only ones on scene.

just the 2 cents of a "pesky emcommer"
Give the ARRL time, and I'm sure we'll have a big spread about the flooding in an upcoming QST.
I'm not taking anything away from EMCOMMS. There are a lot of great operators who do work EMCOMM stuff, and they do perform a great service. No question about it. However, I would submit that most hams don't participate at all. They get licenses, get on the radio, build stations, homebrew, DX, play with new digital modes, model antennas, backpack and QRP, ragchew, do traffic nets, run special event stations, work satellites, etc., etc. etc.
My beef is that sometimes you would think that ARRL would paint all of ham radio with the EMCOMM brush. To all you EMCOMM types out there that did help out, thanks, and great job. I know of a lot of hams that not only do EMCOMMS, but also volunteer for Red Cross and other things. However, ARRL, with their almost ambulance chasing mentality of trying to capitalize on every disaster that a ham might have helped out on for advertising, I say, that's too bad. Ham radio performs a valuable service for folks in and of itself. It doesn't need the advertisement of being more reliable replacement to state of the art commercial and government communications systems. In a disaster, I'd like to think we are here to help if needed; not replace.

[ka5piu]

Hello.

148 MHz to 150 MHz is where a lot of oddbal traffic is.
MARS as well as CAP is there, along with some government satellites.
A lot of military drones use this as one of the channels.
This is also paired with 142 to 144 MHz for some repeaters.
So, I do not see it going anywhere anytime soon.

[KL7FZ]

I'd like to punch the fool who coined the term "Emcomm".

Annoys the heck out of me.

KL7FZ

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ Aug. 29 2007,12:24)]Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ Aug. 29 2007,11:08)]But (IMHO) it's time for what you term "legacy" radio (meaning analogue voice, and a few other modes, I assume) to make way, and make provision for the digital modes, NOT for the "digital modes" to accept a token presence of the traditional (analogue) modes already in use.
I really don't want to make this a "modes" discussion, as I am most interested in switching the EMCOM guys and gals to their own radio service. I want that because for the vast majority of the hard core EMCOMERS, they have zero interest in amateur radio, and never touch the radio unless they are responding to either a real or practice situation. That simply is not amateur radio.

But something is pretty evident regarding modes. I don't have figures to back this up so we'll make it one of those "off the cuff guesstimates." That is, that 90 percent of all new hams, and probably an equal number of all new HF upgrades, are moving to SSB. Their goal is to chat on 20 meters and work DX.

I don't begrudge them that. They have (without turning this into a dumbing down thread) "worked" for it. They are not, however, flocking to the available digital modes. A few, yes, but the majority, the moment they became eligible, grabbed the microphone.

That is why I say the legacy modes must be accomodated. I believe that somewhere down the line, perhaps in ten years, perhaps in twenty, what we term legacy modes today, will be all gone. But I do not think we have to pull a Japan, and suddenly switch everyone, at the crack of noon, to the right side of the road. The digital modes WILL become dominant. That is a given. But they are in no way dominant, or anywhere close to it, in 2007. Any ruling that suddenly moves digital modes into wide HF coverage will simply disenfranchise tens of thousands of hams. It may do it by regulation, or it may do it with interference, but either way, they will suddenly be excluded from amateur radio.

I did not know the 148-150 band was already in use. I'll have to see if I can hear anythng there. My goal would be to move the diehard "Emcom-ONLY" type, out of the ham band. As with the Civil Air Patrol, that does not preclude that person from also holding a ham license, and also operating amateur radio on amateur frequencies. But it does make it far easier for him/her to be an effective volunteer in a more organized method.

In addition, I would think, with the way some of the SW BC stations are moving entirely to the internet, and dropping their HF operations, that the NTIA could make available HF radio frequencies to support this new "Civil Radio Service" on HF. As already mentioned by someone, re-allocating the 60 meter channels to wide band data (encrypted if needed) would be a start. Those channels were begged for by the ARRL as "local emergency" for their justification, and they have yet to be used for training along those lines. Perhaps in a few areas, but mostly they are just more ragchew channels.

The service I envision would include VHF voice, and possibly VHF data repeaters, and would include HF SSB and data operations, with enough frequencies throughout the spectrum to accomodate varying propagation conditions. Similar to MARS in many ways, but the system I see would not require a ham license simply to select an HF voice channel and talk. As on FEMA and Red Cross and many other service HF channels now, including marine.

The HF spectrum is probably available, especially if this service did not become a new freeband but was tightly regulated.

Perhaps, in fact, such a proposal should by pass the FCC entirely, and be presented to the NTIA, or to Homeland Security.

My goal would be to return amateur radio to that pool of nerdy techs we once were, who like to play on the radio and who may, if we could remember anything beyond 'TU QSL BURO QRZ" we could once again "enhance international goodwill." Been a long time since we've done that!

I expect differing opinions, and strong ones from the pro-EMCOM folks, and that's fair. That is what "opinion" is all about. So far this thread seems civil. Thanks!!

Ed
Ed,

I certainly did NOT mean this to be a "modes" debate; buit I DO see things differently. I DO see what are considered by some as "legacy modes" (i.e., Morse, SSB, even FM) as THE predominant modes today, and YES, room needs to be made for the digital modes. No quarrel there. But I do not see "DIGITAL EVERYWHERE" as the immediate, or the 20 or even 40 year future. Digital has it's place, and I will gladly agree it has advantages, but not to the exclusion of "legacy" modes.

The EMCOMM situation IS a real "problem." You propose a new service; perhaps that is appropriate. But it should fall under the jurisdiction of Homeland Security, perhaps with CERT members being granted an authorization for radio use in association with governmental agencies on a local or regional level. THAT would allow as much training and practice activity as deemed necessary, on frequencies assigned to the various governmental entities, and not use Amateur Radio frequencies for questionable purposes.
It WOULD solve a problem, and would answer the true question:

How many of the "New Amateur licensees" would sign up for such a service instead of getting an Amateur license, if given the choice?

If there is a true need for an "auxiliary" civilian radio service to provide emergency communications, then it would seem better suited for the present government and it's infrastructure to establish it and support it, rather than using Amateur Radio.

[W5HTW]

An auxilliary radio service would have to offer something in the form of recruitment. In other words, people would have to know it is there, before they can volunteer. The ARRL has done a pretty fair job of telling would-be hams that amateur radio "is there" if they want to volunteer to serve the public in emergencies. Some organization would have to do the same to bring volunteers into this new radio service.

On the surface, at least, I think it is something whose time has come. We can see that just in the numbers of people who get into ham radio solely to be a part of disaster preparedness. My proposal would be to move them out of ham radio and into a quasi-government (or full government) service where they could do the same thing. This would make it more realistic to have hams in ham radio, people who are interested in our hobby.

It is not that I am against amateur radio performing a public service. I believe it should be capable of doing so, and willing when needed. But having that as the central focus, the main (and as one bold comment in another posting shows, perhaps the only) reason for obtaining a ham license simply redirects our service toward something it is not intended to be. From what little I can tell, no other country has that same focus on emergency service that we do.

I am trying to avoid what, to me, appears to be the inevitable, that amateur radio becomes a semi-commercial radio service. If that happens, we will face an FCC that sees us differently than it does now, which could result in far stricter rules on equipment, tinkering, exploring, and even channelization and standardizing of power levels. We could lose the hobby aspects almost entirely.

Thanks for the various comments!

Ed

[wv6z]

Quote[/b] (aa9ya @ Aug. 28 2007,16:25)]Emcomm tards and digital freaks!!

No wonder ham radio is in the crapper!!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
BWAAA HAAA HAAA! Hey, you, back on your meds! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (aa9ya @ Aug. 29 2007,16:58)]The Emcomm cry…

“Here we come to save the day!!!”

But …in reality….is

“Here we come just to get in the way!!!”


http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
ROFL!!! Spit coffee on that one.

In the past I was always able to put what we call today "whackers" to work at productive tasks. If you can get the whackers actually doing something useful, using the help of the well meaning and earnest volunteer is pretty easy. My goal was always to use everyone who was willing to volunteer in some way.

Using whackers to direct traffic or function on the command staff as logistics support, scribes, monitoring the radio, etc. worked well for them and for me. Often at a large incident, it was useful just to give one a radio and tell him/her to listen for anyone calling me to ensure I don't miss a call when busy with multiple tasks.

Unless you get all volunteers involved, some will be more in the way than others.

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Aug. 31 2007,08:00)]In the past I was always able to put what we call today "whackers" to work at productive tasks. #If you can get the whackers actually doing something useful, using the help of the well meaning and earnest volunteer is pretty easy. #My goal was always to use everyone who was willing to volunteer in some way.

Using whackers to direct traffic or function on the command staff as logistics support, scribes, monitoring the radio, etc. worked well for them and for me. #Often at a large incident, it was useful just to give one a radio and tell him/her to listen for anyone calling me to ensure I don't miss a call when busy with multiple tasks.

Unless you get all volunteers involved, some will be more in the way than others.
Good post, Charlie.

Leadership is the essence of any effort, whether EmComm or anything else that requires more than one man to accomplish. I learned many years ago that "anytime you have two men in a room, one of them is in charge."

That old military dictum may seem an overstatement, but it is really true to a greater extent than many realize.

Leadership is a rare talent; one that is not the result of running around shouting orders, but of quietly exercising "command." Whackers can be put to good use if the individual who holds responsibility is wise enough to reason how and resourceful enough to understand that there is always use for another warm body -- the failure of runaway whackers is inevitably a failure of command, and not the fault of the whackers.

[AG3Y]

I am an Amateur Extra Class of long standing, but if the dike broke on the edge of town ( OK, it's just a hypothetical situation here ! ) I am convinced that I would be of greater help toward saving the city by throwing sandbags in the opening than manning a radio !

JMHO 73, Jim

[AE6IP]

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Aug. 31 2007,04:23)]Whackers can be put to good use if the individual who holds responsibility is wise enough to reason how and resourceful enough to understand that there is always use for another warm body -- the failure of runaway whackers is inevitably a failure of command, and not the fault of the whackers.
Alas, Albert, in search and rescue, there are often circumstances in which another warm body is merely someone else you have to keep from getting in the way.

Any number of S&R efforts have been complicated by the whacker who, upon hearing of the search on their scanner, takes it upon themselves to play hero and find the missing party.

These whackers head directly into the search area without ever informing 'command' of their existence and become lost themselves, complicating th search team's work.

You presuppose that the whackers make an effort to contact the chain of command and place themselves at its disposal. In that case, it is indeed command's responsibility. But too many of them simply interpose themselves in a situation and end up a liability.

Similar problems happen in disaster recovery, where the whackers enter the disaster area on their own, without coordinating with the recovery teams, get themselves into trouble and become another victim that the team has to deal with.

[kb9sxk]

Amateur radio is a big tent.

There is room for CW nuts, Digital dogs, DX freaks, those alergic to freqs below 144, and even contesters (who IMHO do more damage to ham radio than any emergency service wacker)

Our hobby is what we make it.

I dont enjoy code, so i dont use it.
I dont enjoy digital data, so I dont use it
I like HF, I like 2m, I like Emergency Service....So I do those.

Ban emcomm (I agree, Hate that term)? why not ban CW? the incessant beeping annoys me.

[kc9kow]

I think this has officially been beat to death. It's obvious that Emcomm does not need us or want us. They are two really different worlds except when they come to us and say "we need you".

I only take exception to the weather spotters, because that's always legit as radar and such cannot give ground truth reports. Eyes on the ground have always been a great thing.

Here's a point no one is looking at either:

Ham radio is not the only radio system that can be hooked up to emergency power and emergency antennae structures. Any radio system can do that when you have the properly trained people to perform such manuvers. All PS agencies have them, but usually don't want to use them till it's too late.

What a mess thins has become!

[N0NB]

Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ Aug. 29 2007,07:42)]We are losing our identity. We need to get a crash course going to educate ourselves, and those who see us as some extension of a federal agency, to define amateur radio. It is being badly corrupted, both in the interest of federal grant money and in the interest of simply adding numbers to our license rolls.

The prerequisite of entering amateur radio, the primary prerrequisiste, should be an interest in amateur radio. It should not be solely emcom, and it should never be quasi law enforcement, or job enhancement. A ham license should NEVER be a 'job requirement.'
Bingo! Bravo! I couldn't agree more, Ed.

This has been a concern of mine going on at least a decade. I think it first really hit home for me when I first saw those callsign "badges" advertised. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Over the past decade I've seen ham radio diverging into two main groups--the hobbyists and the people involved in emcomm (yeah, it's a lousy shorthand that came from the same place as J-Lo). As time goes on, I think it will be a real challenge for the two groups to coexist.

One more thing, all emcomm all the time is not the amateur radio that I signed up for nearly a quarter century ago. I wanted to learn about the technology behind radio and make friends and have fun.

I think your idea of an emcomm service that is truly an auxiliary of the Public Safety service is an excellent idea. It could truly be structured to meet the needs of public safety, DHS, etc. Most hams I know won't willingly participate in the highly structured environment emcomm is developing. I know that it holds no appeal to me. I've declined invitations to join MARS for the very same reasons.

I, for one, do NOT want the Amateur Radio Service to continue down this road of becoming a public safety auxiliary. Perhaps other jurisdictions have it right by structuring amateur radio as a hobby service.

[kb9sxk]

"I, for one, do NOT want the Amateur Radio Service to continue down this road of becoming a public safety auxiliary."

I just dont see this happening in my area.

[KC5SAS]

Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 01 2007,22:46)]"I, for one, do NOT want the Amateur Radio Service to continue down this road of becoming a public safety auxiliary. #
"

I just dont see this happening in my area.
Neither do I. If anything ham radio has not been used here in my Parish for Emcomm at all since a year BEFORE Katrina. After Katrina hit shelter managers here were issued PUBLIC SAFETY radios to contact our EOC. After Katrina I assisted RACES in a neighboring parish which used ham radio for comms between the mega shelter and their EOC. Ham radio was only used for approx 48 hours before spare PUBLIC SERVICE radios were issued to shelter managers.
A lack of volunteers and a lack of mission has put ham radio based Emcomm into hybernation here. I am on the agenda of our Local Emergency Planning Committee every two months for a RACES report. For the last 2 years teh report has been pretty much the same, "I'd be happy to have ACS/RACES volunteers but for the forseeable future there is little to no chance of us being activated." Still, our State EOP requires us to have a RACES plan so I keep it updated and give my bimonthly reports, such as they are.

[KC0OFZ]

Quote[/b] (KI4PNL @ Aug. 29 2007,16:43)]The NC section monthly ARRL newsletter for August had this little tid bit in it talking about the need to do SET in September.

SIMULATED EMERGENCY TEST

It's not too early to begin planning your 2007 SET exercise. The national weekend is October 6-7, but your excercise can be held anytime before the end of the year. During September, the ARRL will be among dozens of organizations and agencies taking part in National Preparedness Month. "The Ready Campaign," produced by the Ad Council in partnership with the US Department of Homeland Security (DHS), is aimed at making citizen preparedness "a priority for every city, every neighborhood and every home" in the US. The ARRL encourages you to consider this year's Simulated Emergency Test and preparations for it as a demonstration of Amateur Radio's readiness and as an active participant in National Preparedness Month. One area of emphasis you might consider excercising this year is your ability to deploy resources quickly with little advanced notice. The ARRL's recent National Emergency Response Planning Committee empahsized the importance of this capability, stating "in the USA, we see a post-Katrina emphasis on speeding up the deployment of sophisticated communications systems after disasters so that governmental and non-governmental organizations can get to work quickly. As the emergency telecomm world as a whole speeds up its reaction time, so we hams must be better organized, more capable, and as quick as possible on the scene after our help is requested, if we are not to arrive after our window of usefulness has closed. Given ham radio's dependency on emergency communications as our reason to exist in this country, it would be suicidal to assume that what we have always been able to do, at the speed we have always been able to do it, will be just fine to maintain our relevance into the indefinite future."


The article doesn't say who said this, but I expect they are with the ARRL, either here in NC or in Newington. To me, this is a huge bunch of crap. If EMCOM is the only reason amateur radio exists in America, our hobby is doomed. A sad, sad statement, IMHO.

Shane
The league has totally sold out to the whackers and ecomm. The league will NEVER defend any of the legacy modes or the non ecome parts of the hobby. The league and the whackers want nothing more than to take over the entire service for their own personal gain.
They live the dream of controlling the whole incident demanding they be put in charge.
The leagues ideal that ecomm is the ONLY reason that amateur radio exists is total garbage. Can AR be of assistance? yes. Are there persons in AR who are a value and a help in the time of need? of course, but this idea that amateur radio is going to replace any and all services and become the back bone of all ecomm work is stupid at best. It is however what the whackers and the league want...

[VK2AKG]

Quote[/b] (KI4PNL @ Aug. 30 2007,02:43)]The NC section monthly ARRL newsletter for August had this little tid bit in it talking about the need to do SET in September.

-- snip --

Given ham radio's dependency on emergency communications as our reason to exist in this country

-- snip --

The article doesn't say who said this, but ...
Politicians I have talked to on this side of the pond are concerned about the loss of skills as the baby boomers retire. They see the continual desire for improvement and self training aspects of technical hobbies, particularly amateur radio, as a significant benefit to our country. I tend to agree with them.

It is significant that:
- the comments were made last year (not close to an election),
- they raised the subject of technical hobbies and amateur radio not knowing I'm a ham and
- none of them mentioned emcomm

Something to think about ...

[wa2dtw]

If they have their own frequencies outside of the ham bands (like MARS) and we do not lose amateur spectrum, then what is the problem?

[W5HTW]

Quote[/b] (wa2dtw @ Sep. 02 2007,08:08)]If they have their own frequencies outside of the ham bands (like MARS) and we do not lose amateur spectrum, then what is the problem?
Precisely! Then there IS no problem. That is what I think should happen.

I should make it clear I do not denigrate volunteerism. I can't applaud the volunteer fire fighter, for example, who suddenly liaves a well prepared meal, to dash off to fight a fire he (or she) doesn't get paid to fight, doesn't know who owns the structure, doesn't care, and doesn't get his/her name in the paper afterward. What wonderful motivation!

I'm very much pro volunteers,and would be for those who volunteer to perform emergency and disaster communications services as well. I simply think there is a better way for them to do that, than in amateur radio, and I believe a civil emergency radio corps, or something on that order, would be ideal for them as well as for amateur radio in general.

Ed

[W0JBC]

W5HTW:

Ed, I think that the newbies see the cops and EMS people using HT's and know they can look like ECOMM ops is the reason for more Tech class ops showing up.

It is true that "Hams" have come to the rescue in the past, they are NOT primary responders . Unfortunately, " Hams With Scanners " sometimes show up and get in the way. If all other trunking systems get overloaded, then hams can ( and do) help with a non-trunking system to aid.

Motorola, and others, have sold corporate and cities with the trunk to be the best where communications are needed. Those systems work.

When those trunking systems become overloaded, they are WORTHLESS.

Those choices are made by the powers that be.

We, as amateurs, should be backup responders ( if requested).

Again, some new guys think otherwise. This observation is just that, an observation.

I agree that there should be a " whacker band" . With training, they would not show up unless requested to do so. You, and many others, have seen when the trunks fail.

Now my question... where do I go to get all the lights put in my car ??

Just kiddin' I gotta have those strobes kicking ...

Just for fun,

JB

WØJBC

[WA0LYK]

Given ham radio's dependency on emergency communications as our reason to exist in this country, it would be suicidal to assume that what we have always been able to do, at the speed we have always been able to do it, will be just fine to maintain our relevance into the indefinite future."

This statement just clarifies who is running the ARRL. This is nothing more than the same old spiel that "snake oil" salesmen have used in the past. It has just enough of a grain of truth to pique the interest of those who are not educated.

Part 97.1(a) Recognition and enhancement of the value of the
amateur service to the public as a voluntary noncommercial
communication service, particularly with respect to providing
emergency communications.

I see the term "to the public" and wonder how this has convoluted into "public safety agencies" and "ngo's". This makes absolutely no sense to me. One could make the argument that the best way to serve the public is to work through public safety and ngo's but this still doesn't mean we must do so to insure the ongoing viability of amateur radio.

Also, one only has to look at the sentence to understand that "emergency communications" is only a PART of the equation and that other things go into providing a voluntary noncommercial communications service to the public. Yet there are those who now have the gall to state that emcomms is the primary purpose for amateur radio even existing. Give me a break!

These folks need to step back a little and remember what was intended WHEN this was put into the rules. That serves to establish a baseline of what is required. For example, just exactly how many hams had mobile stations, vhf/uhf equipment, or handhelds when this rule was written? Just exactly what emergency communications were hams expected to be able to provide, and to whom?

Now I'm not saying that amateur radio shouldn't keep up with the times and use modern equipment to provide the best emergency communications we can. However, until the basis and purpose of amateur radio is re-written one can not make the leap that our very existence depends on doing more than what was intended at the time the rule was created.

Jim
WA0LYK

[KI4ITV]

A separate service is a GREAT idea. I am all for it because this perception of emergency communications justification is not going away...ever.

But, there is a problem and it is a BIG one for EMMCOM.
If said whacker is only using radio to check into nets and practice drills, how is he/she supposed to have ANY ability to help in times of real emergency by troubleshooting and working around the problems associated with unknown circumstance? Is every "shadow" going to have its own technical shadow?
In my mind, it is the everyday (active) hobbyist/experimenter that actually make amateur radio attractive and "a pool of skilled" people to draw from. It is its very association with the rest of us that makes amateur radio a viable alternative and short term fix during an emergency. Our tinkering and daily usage of our own private stations provides flexibility that will not be found in a official service.
If this EMMCOM service is established, it will not be long before it chases technology right down the same road public service did and become useless in certain situations. They will only train using "authorized" modes and will also be saturated with non-technical "communicators" who have to rely on a relatively small pool of problem solvers to fix the things they can't troubleshoot on the fly.
"I accidentally reset my HT, do we have a programmer on site.", may well become the battle cry of such a service.
"Oh, we need long distance communications out of the area? I'll pop on QRZ and ask how to make a dipole.". is not out of the realm of possibilities either.

I think the ARRL is starting to sub-divide us, hopefully by accident, and it is this subdivision of out great hobby that will eventually make it useless as emergency help, possibly killing it in the process.

I still like the idea though.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[WA6MHZ]

EMCOMM is Amateur Radio's Last Chance! For, if we look at who is coming into the hobby (OOPS, that should be "SERVICE", not Hobby!!) we see that 90% or more are all here because they want to help save the day when all the Cell Phones and 800 MHZ police radios go down. And they do, too. Anyone who disagrees just needs to ask what happened in Katrina or the Firestorm of 2003 here in San Diego. Hams truly did SAVE THE DAY. Most of the enthusiasm in Ham Radio today is from people who want to be prepared for the next disaster, when or wherever it happens. And it WILL happen, no doubt about that. CERT heartily endorses all involved to get a license. Police, Fire and Hospitals just LOVE Hams who are ready to help in emergencies. But take away all of that and what is left in ham radio. A few who like to ragchew on the low bands, DXers trying to talk to ANYONE at the very null of the Sunspot cycle, and the Electronic enthusiasts who like to build and experiment with Radio magic. If it weren't for Emcomm, ham Radio would have just about dried up. For most of the present day hams who aren't doing Emcomm came from the era when there was no Internet, Cellphones, Microwave Ovens, HD TV, Text messaging, Digital clocks/watches, video games or computers! Ham Radio was HIGH TECH! Ham radio was responsible for so many teenagers going into the Electronics industry as a career. It sure was for me. But the Thrill of talking on airwaves across the globe has been much dilluted by the internet, where we can CHAT just as easily with a person in China or Russia even Voice chat, just like a real QSO. Some have even set up a Virtual Ham Band, where interneters can pretend it is 20 Meters, call CQ and work Great DX regardless of the Sunspots!! SO it is back to EMCOMM to keep Ham Radio alive. We need new blood and here it is. Many are teens and kids who have no idea which end of the Soldering Iron gets hot, but can squeeze the PTT button on a Handy Talkie and report an emergency. EMCOMM is Ham Radios ONLY HOPE for survival!

[W5HTW]

Well, Haw! I guess a bit of humor on this thread is a welcome break from the serious discussion! Thanks!

Ed

[wz9o]

Emcomm is ham radios biggest embarrassment.

Emcomm is full of whackers. What is a whacker?

A whacker is a mentally disturbed individual that runs around pretending to be any or all of the following:
a cop,
a firefighter,
a medic,
a communications expert
…etc…

Check out this link and take the test to see if you too are a whacker…

www.policeposers.com/whacker.php#whacker

[kb9sxk]

Quote[/b] (aa9ya @ Sep. 03 2007,08:06)]Emcomm is ham radios biggest embarrassment.

Emcomm is full of whackers. What is a whacker?

A whacker is a mentally disturbed individual that runs around pretending to be any or all of the following:
a cop,
a firefighter,
a medic,
a communications expert
…etc…

Check out this link and take the test to see if you too are a whacker…

www.policeposers.com/whacker.php#whacker
Contesting and OFs are the biggest embarassent

[wz9o]

Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 03 2007,22:32)]Quote[/b] (aa9ya @ Sep. 03 2007,08:06)]Emcomm is ham radios biggest embarrassment.

Emcomm is full of whackers. What is a whacker?

A whacker is a mentally disturbed individual that runs around pretending to be any or all of the following:
a cop,
a firefighter,
a medic,
a communications expert
…etc…

Check out this link and take the test to see if you too are a whacker…

www.policeposers.com/whacker.php#whacker
Contesting and OFs are the biggest embarassent
You must have scored a 100 on the "whacker" quiz! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[W5HTW]

Quote[/b] (kb9sxk @ Sep. 03 2007,22:32)]Quote[/b] (aa9ya @ Sep. 03 2007,08:06)]Emcomm is ham radios biggest embarrassment.

Emcomm is full of whackers. What is a whacker?

A whacker is a mentally disturbed individual that runs around pretending to be any or all of the following:
a cop,
a firefighter,
a medic,
a communications expert
…etc…

Check out this link and take the test to see if you too are a whacker…

www.policeposers.com/whacker.php#whacker
Contesting and OFs are the biggest embarassent
Nah. Spelling is ham radio's biggest embarrassment. Not only can we not communicate very well by radio, we do an even worse job in English.

Ed

[W0JBC]

Ed,
You and I have spent many posts stating that more and more "hams" have no command of the language... Within that, you must be able to spell...

It is not the CW shortcuts, it is the fact that the new ( oldbies too ) cannot spell. It amazes me that some can read the questions , and given answers, still cannot spell .

Some cannot create a thought when putting it on paper ( like the internet ). As was alluded to earlier, many OF's like you and me , still cannot comprise a message. It takes energy and learning to do these things.

I thought that the new learning processes were to eliminate the written mistakes ... NOT SO !!


You are correct.... people not only discern a person's mentality by voice, also are judged by their sentence construction .


I don't know about how you feel about this, it is a strong indication to me about their education...

So it goes....


JB

[kn4ds]

Quote[/b] (W0JBC @ Sep. 04 2007,23:32)]people not only discern a person's mentality by voice, also are judged by their sentence construction .


I don't know about how you feel about this, it is a strong indication to me about their education...

So it goes....
*wild applause*

On this thing we call the Internet, the only way one can make an impression is with their spelling/grammar. Typos aside, when one does not know the difference between their, there and they're, it speaks to their own opinion of their self-worth.

I don't know that it's so much education, since I had a quality education at a small school in Oklahoma through the 70s... I tend to think it has to do with their level of interest in presenting themselves in a competent manner. By this, I mean that back then, we didn't know there would be an Internet, and many had the thought that they'd not need to to worry with how they appeared to others "on paper," as it were.

When many of us were in school, the only thought a lot of folks had was to wear a suit to church on Sundays, and they'd appear prosperous. Along came this Internet thingy, and many were adrift, knowing little of spelling and grammar. It's hard to blame them; they had no idea they'd ever need to know what was taught in English classes.

I shudder when I see news items describing how students are to be allowed to use "text messaging" abbreviations on exams.

Sure, I'll drop into a southern kinda thing and start doin' things online that aren't grammatically correct... hell, I'll even end a sentence with a preposition.

On the 'net, the first, and many times only, impression one can make is based on spelling, grammar and sentence structure. If you hear these guys on the air, and meet up with 'em at hamfests, you'd never know, of course.

I think the main thing the Internet has exposed is a lack of self-worth.

[VK2AKG]

Quote[/b] (KE4UWL @ Sep. 05 2007,06:45)]I think the main thing the Internet has exposed is a lack of self-worth.
and how much American hams dislike each other?

[W0JBC]

VK2AKG:

Bull hockey !

It is education PERIOD.

Thanks for your input.

JB

[W5HTW]

This probably shouldn't be turned into an education thread, but what the heck!! I still hope there will be comments on the possibility of a viable alternate radio service to ham radio "Emcom."

I prefer to write in "casual English," unless I am doing newspaper writing, which I no longer do. That means I am willing to break a few stiff rules regarding writing and ending sentences with in to on by. I do make more than my share of typos, and I admit I often don't bother to go back and fix them.

It is this whole new interspeak that is being substituted for our written language that bothers me. Couple that with the "then-than" ands the "your-you're" nightmare, and it seems clear we are truly losing written English capabilities. That means going back to carvings on our walls, as our only means of comunication. From cave man to civilization back to cave man.

Without an understandable language, we can't even be a nation. We can't be "united anything," let alone United States, as there is nothing to unite us but dirt. We are moving toward becoming a new Babylon. I have said this jokingly in the past few years, but I am starting to think it is a serious threat when we see postings here that we really cannot comprehend, yet that are supposedly in some form of our language. It isn't a joke anymore! We CAN'T communicate.

That is frightening, and the progression to non-communication is amazingly rapid. When someone writes a ten sentence paragraph and virtually none of us can figure out what that person is trying to say we are in serious trouble. Joke time is over.

But what can we do about it? Picking on individuals isn't the answer, even jokingly. They have already learned the wrong way, or no way, and simply become defensive with a "so what?" attitude. In other words, they just don't care that they can't communicate.

But what about the future? I have no idea where we as a society are going, in communications among ourselves, but it certainly doesn't look very promising.

Ed

[kb9sxk]

I freely admit that I can not spell.

I can however, speak and write quite well.

Spell check is our friend.

I think most people get lazy when posting on the net or when writing e-mail.