View Full Version : So tired of seeing this:
KE5FRF
08-29-2007, 01:03 PM
Guys,
I'm so frustrated I could eat glass because everywhere I look I see Technicians only talking about 10 meters. I hear it on 2 meter discussions and I see it on these internet discussions. "I sure wish 10 meters was open more", "Trying to build an antenna for 10 meters", "Looking for a 10 meter rig", etc. etc.
Yet I see nobody talking about building a 40 meter antenna. Fourty meters is open each and every day and is open for DX in the evenings and early morning. It is good for local traffic any time during daylight hours and often on into the night.
I see nobody talking about 80 meters. Eighty meters is a tough band to get on because of antenna dimensions, but it is doable if you have a decent sized lot and some tall trees. The summer months can be noisy, but you will hear some strong local traffic almost any time of day and it gets better at night. Want to talk to a friend 100 or so miles away? 80 meters is the place to be in the evenings for those kind of contacts.
I see nobody talking about 15 meters. Fifteen meters is not open every day and traffic on that band is sparse, but if you tune around almost any day you will probably hear a QSO or two to somewhere. I hear South Amercian traffic now and then and am always amazed that during contests the band seems to open up. This indicates the band is open more than we realize but since propogation is flakey a lot of people aren't using it as much as we should. If more of YOU GUYS put signals on the air, the traffic would only go up!
To read and hear some Technicians talking, you'd think they had no privelages below 28 MHz. This isn't true. The FCC overnight granted a sizeable amount of spectrum to the Technician class on the 80,40,15, and 10 meter bands. The only catch is that you have to learn Morse Code. As much controversy as the rules changes caused, this was the one thing that I believe the FCC did right. They left an insintive for new amateurs to learn the code and use it.
I know that some will accuse this thread of being a code "troll". But that ISN'T what this is about. It is about encouraging you guys to use the privelages you have to the fullest. I know it may seem easier to just study for the General license and get on HF phone...but hear me out. All of that can come any time you want it. Do something for yourself that nobody will ever be able to take away. If you take the time to learn and use the code NOW, once you get that General license your world will be open to an almost unlimited number of QSOs. If the phone bands seem a bit crowded, uninteresting, or if there is a contest going on that you have no interest in, there will always be CW on the low end of the band. Learning the code now will only benefit you in the future.
Don't forget these privelages you've got! Take a month out of your life, just 30 minutes a day, to study Morse Code. In a month I gaurantee you'll be able to call CQ at 10 WPM and have people answer you. You'll actually be able to use those 80,40, and 15 meter privelages that seem so useless right now!!!!
Sometimes I think that allowing Tech's on 10 meters was a bad idea. I do think they should be allowed a small area of phone privilages but they should have put it somewhere on 75 meters. I know that 75 is bad enough but since they expanded the phone allocations on 75 it would have been a better choice. At least on 75 meters you can make a contact day or night no matter where in the cycle where we are. Sunspots are dead and 10 meters is dead so why not change it to a band where they can build a dipole and allot say 100kc at the bottom of the phone band. Then the Tech's might actually learn something from being able to talk to other hams no matter where we are in the cycle.
Just my 2 cents.
I await the flame thrower http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
N8UZE
08-29-2007, 01:13 PM
I wholeheartedly agree with you and try to encourage people to explore these other bands. #It's especially good now that they have expanded the CW privileges so they can operate in the "mainstream" rather than being isolated off in a "ghetto".
However, the problem you mention is not new. #It's been going on for a long time. The old Novice/Tech CW bands have been quiet for a very long time now. Because of that issue, the ARRL discontinued the Novice Roundup Contest (which also included Techs) some time ago and also changed the name and rules for what was the Novice/Tech station for Field Day.
And it is not just limited to HF. #Way too many people stick to repeater contacts in the VHF/UHF ranges. #Yet my OM has worked most of the states on 6m SSB and quite a few states on 2m SSB. #I've worked some rather distant contacts on 6m and 2m CW.
kc2orw
08-29-2007, 01:23 PM
Well I think some of you might have missed a point here and you would have to ask it directly to know for sure.
It might very well be that some people are interested in shorter wavelengths due to antenna restrictions. If 10 meters were open I would be very happy as the antenna requirements make it easier to put together a decent antenna.
Sixteen feet is a lot easier to deal with in an antenna restricted area then 132 feet.
Some people do live in crowded regions and I thought I heard some recent statistic that indicated most people do.
KE5FRF
08-29-2007, 01:33 PM
Well, I posted this fully expecting that somewhere along the way, someone will hijack the topic and turn it south. But that doesn't stop me from speaking my mind and saying something that I believe needs to be said. I honestly want to encourage amateurs to use their privelages to the fullest.
If any brand new Technician or even long time Technician wants to set up a practice sked in the Novice/Tech segemnts on any of these bands, please feel free to PM or e-mail me and we'll set up practice sessions.
KE5FRF
08-29-2007, 01:38 PM
Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ Aug. 29 2007,08:23)]Well I think some of you might have missed a point here and you would have to ask it directly to know for sure.
It might very well be that some people are interested in shorter wavelengths due to antenna restrictions. If 10 meters were open I would be very happy as the antenna requirements make it easier to put together a decent antenna.
Sixteen feet is a lot easier to deal with in an antenna restricted area then 132 feet.
Some people do live in crowded regions and I thought I heard some recent statistic that indicated most people do.
I fully understand that some people are going to be limited in their operating in that way. But this isn't limited to Techs nor is it limited to phone operators. There are plenty of old timers who operate CW who have to deal with antenna limitations too. The point of this thread is that 95% or more of new amateurs and even long time Technicians are totally disregarding the HF privelages they were granted. It's almost as if some don't even know they have them. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that a LOT of Technicians don't even realize they have 40 meter or 80 meter privelages because their friends aren't talking about it.
Heath is right! The Technician License is the "New" Novice license! Just because the FCC no longer considers testing for the Morse Code does NOT mean that it should be abandoned! In fact, since there is no pressure to pass an examination on your abilities in CW, Morse SHOULD be something that you would like to try, just because it is so available to you !
I have seen some signs that the Sunspot Cycle is going to start swinging upward now, but WHY restrict yourself to such a small portion of the HF bands? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif You are being more of a hinderance to your enjoyment of them than the FCC is !
I betcha that if the Fed said, "no Tech operation below 6 meters" there would be yelling and screaming , but as Heath says, there is precious little use of the HF CW bands by Techs right now!
CW IS a very viable mode of communication. So get on those bands, and USE IT ! ! !
73, Jim
kc2orw
08-29-2007, 02:01 PM
I think you might be partly wrong and that many would like to but they just figure they can't. I am working on a few screwball antenna types to enable or is that frustrate myself with. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
One thing with me at least I like homebrew so trying doesn't seem like a total loss even if things end up not working too well.
I end up having to operate like I am portable all the time http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
KB3NDN
08-29-2007, 02:06 PM
i put up my 80 meter antenna before i built a 10 meter one. - not much to do with it yet - but it is up there waiting for my radio http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Come on techs, I need people to help me practice my code. Throw up some wire and get on the air.
Alan, "operating like you are portable all the time" is not as much of a handicap as you might believe! I have heard several mobile stations that have signals that are perfectly "Q-5" and they are running 100 watts and a "screwdriver" antenna mounted on the bumper of their car! Granted, they cannot ( or should not ) operate CW while in motion, but there is nothing saying they cannot park the car in front of the house, or at the park or fishing hole, and get in a QSO or two. And if the band is dead, that is why they should take along the fishing pole ! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Actually, the mobile type antenna CAN be used on a railing of a townhouse patio very effectively. CW ( remember, that was the main subject of this string ) can reach out tremendous distances with only a few watts of power, and many hams have been tremendously successful running QRP stations. You do NOT need a thousand watts and a 4 element monobander at 100 feet in order to work other stations!
Don't throw roadblocks in the path. Bite the bullet, and try something NEW for you ! Why fight it ? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
73, Jim
kc2orw
08-29-2007, 02:12 PM
Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Aug. 29 2007,07:07)]Come on techs, I need people to help me practice my code. Throw up some wire and get on the air.
Ryan I am working hard at getting there but I do worry whether I will drive you crazy by asking you to hear a minimal signal. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Wouldn't mind getting a QSO with Jim, Heath and many others but alas it may not happen as soon as I wish.
Heck that is even the reason I didn't bother to upgrade to General or even Extra lite http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
PS: To Jim yes it isn't a total handicap but again you may not be able to hear me http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
PPS: To whoever I am not even allowed to put up a ladder. If only I could have had the upper floor I would already been working some of you. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
KE5FRF
08-29-2007, 02:33 PM
Quote[/b] ]PS: To Jim yes it isn't a total handicap but again you may not be able to hear me
You'll never ever know until you try.
Let me put it this way...At my old house when I first set up my HF antenna, I also tried something silly just for kicks. I took a 25 foot piece of coax and soldered a very long piece of wire to the center about 200 feet long. I then soldered the other end to the shield...in effect a loop. I strung one side of this loop to the top of my wood fence and the other side of the loop drooped to the ground on its way back to the shack. Definately not a good design because my "loop" was practically two parallel pieces of wire joined at the ends. Anyway, I connected this to my tuner, tuned it up, and heard all kinds of signals on 20 meters and some on 40 and 80 as well. I made a contact on each one of these bands with this funky "antenna" on that day and played with it for a week before disassembling it. It was just an experiment to see how good a poor antenna would work and I proved to myself that 50% of HF operation is in propogation.
Any antenna is better than no antenna. Many people have fun with 5 watts to the proverbial "wet noodle".
So don't let antenna limitations stop you! in fact, CW is the BEST mode for people with poor antennas.
ai4ep
08-29-2007, 02:34 PM
:rock:
I do not understand the problems with building 10 meter antennas.
It requires the least amount of wire of any antenna for HF use.
You can also ( in some cases ) still use your old Antron 99 cb base antenna on 10 meters.
So where IS the problem ?
simple, and to the point.
AI4EP (Robert) http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ Aug. 29 2007,09:12)]Ryan I am working hard at getting there but I do worry whether I will drive you crazy by asking you to hear a minimal signal. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I hear ya. I used to be apartment restricted myself, so I resorted to mobile operation mostly.
K0RGR
08-29-2007, 02:44 PM
Well, as the technological black sheep of the family, I'd be pleased to see some Techs trying to use computers to do CW.
As I've said before, as long as they keep the speed reasonable, most of us will be able to copy them the old fashioned way, and as long as we use a keyboard to send, they should be able to copy us fairly well. Hopefully, they will soon learn that CW is great, but to really enjoy it, they need to learn to copy in their head.
I'd like to see some calling frequencies established for computerized CW, and maybe a distinctive CQ - "CQ CCW" for computerized CW, perhaps.
Gotta tell this story.
Many years ago, I was trying to set up a station to work phone patches to South America for Missionaries that were working down there.
I was just in the learning process, and trying to figure out how "open" 15 meters was at the time. I did not have a 15 meter antenna, so I took a shortened CB antenna, and added a chunk of wire to the end so it would resonate on 15 , and stuck it to the radiator in the house for SOME SORT of ground plane ( it was a magnetic type of antenna )
To make a long story short, I not only heard the Missionary I would soon become friends with, but I WORKED him for the first time on that 11 meter mag-mount stuck to the radiator !
That antenna was eventually replaced with a cubical quad, but I will never forget the thrill I had when he acknowledged my call and we had our first chat together!
As I said before, you don't need a kilowatt and a 4 element SteppIR at 100 feet to work other stations, not even the DX ones!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
kb2vxa
08-29-2007, 02:52 PM
Hi Heath and all,
Sir, if you have that little patience go ahead and chew glass. This is a whole new ball game CW or no CW is way beside the point. Why not give them time to get used to their new privileges and get their feet wet with HF? Once they get used to "10M CB" (to borrow a phrase from 2M) they'll upgrade and it's not SO hard, they'll eventually migrate.
Don't forget it's the bottom of the cycle and you did mention that's one of their conversations. So far it's pretty much like "shooting skip" on CB with sporadic E but when the higher frequency bands open worldwide the foot draggers will get a taste of real DX and have further incentive to spread out.
Now the door is wide open to the usual remarks about the NCG invasion so TAKE IT AWAAAAAY! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
kc2orw
08-29-2007, 03:00 PM
Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Aug. 29 2007,07:42)]Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ Aug. 29 2007,09:12)]Ryan I am working hard at getting there but I do worry whether I will drive you crazy by asking you to hear a minimal signal. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I hear ya. I used to be apartment restricted myself, so I resorted to mobile operation mostly.
Doable but even that is not great around here... park anywhere you are liable to chased away. Might have to try out some HFPack style got some height options there...
I have my eyes on some property upstate, way.. upstate, unfortunately I can't make the same money up there as down here. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
KE5FRF
08-29-2007, 03:02 PM
Quote[/b] (kb2vxa @ Aug. 29 2007,09:52)]Hi Heath and all,
Sir, if you have that little patience go ahead and chew glass. This is a whole new ball game CW or no CW is way beside the point. Why not give them time to get used to their new privileges and get their feet wet with HF? Once they get used to "10M CB" (to borrow a phrase from 2M) they'll upgrade and it's not SO hard, they'll eventually migrate.
Don't forget it's the bottom of the cycle and you did mention that's one of their conversations. So far it's pretty much like "shooting skip" on CB with sporadic E but when the higher frequency bands open worldwide the foot draggers will get a taste of real DX and have further incentive to spread out.
Now the door is wide open to the usual remarks about the NCG invasion so TAKE IT AWAAAAAY! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
What does this have to do with patience?
I knew it was only a matter of the first page before someone would turn the conversation negative. The whole point is, nobody has to wait at all for the sun spots to make DX contacts possible. They already are! You just have to be willing to put forth the effort and do what it takes to use those bands. The whole point of this thread is that many people are ignoring some pretty good privelages on HF. That's all.
Quote[/b] (kb2vxa @ Aug. 29 2007,07:52)]Now the door is wide open to the usual remarks about the NCG invasion so TAKE IT AWAAAAAY! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
All Techs (code, no-code, whatever) should immediately be given free and unfettered access to 14.275 ...
Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ Aug. 29 2007,06:23)]Well I think some of you might have missed a point here and you would have to ask it directly to know for sure.
It might very well be that some people are interested in shorter wavelengths due to antenna restrictions. If 10 meters were open I would be very happy as the antenna requirements make it easier to put together a decent antenna.
Yep, they can use their CB antenna on 10M with minor mods and their Ranger is now legal. Saves big $$$$.
KA4DPO
08-29-2007, 03:07 PM
Quote[/b] (kb2vxa @ Aug. 29 2007,09:52)]Hi Heath and all,
Sir, if you have that little patience go ahead and chew glass. This is a whole new ball game CW or no CW is way beside the point. Why not give them time to get used to their new privileges and get their feet wet with HF? Once they get used to "10M CB" (to borrow a phrase from 2M) they'll upgrade and it's not SO hard, they'll eventually migrate.
Don't forget it's the bottom of the cycle and you did mention that's one of their conversations. So far it's pretty much like "shooting skip" on CB with sporadic E but when the higher frequency bands open worldwide the foot draggers will get a taste of real DX and have further incentive to spread out.
Now the door is wide open to the usual remarks about the NCG invasion so TAKE IT AWAAAAAY! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
You made a very good point. It is the bottom of the cycle which means Heath is right on the money about the lower bands.
What is it with the new Ball game ( mentality ) that say's I can't even try CW? CW is a valid digital mode that's been in use for many years. It's still used because it works when no other mode will but you have to work a little. I guess that's the part that puts off all the new Techs, work....
Most of them are the epitome of appliance operators, just pick up a mike and yak, no thought required. I see a vast expanse of useable bandwidth in the CW subbands that's just perfect for them to "get their feet wet". As a Novice I couldn't wait to get on those bands and work DX. It wasn't easy but that made it all the more fun. So instead of making all kinds of excuses why you can't try CW, just try it. There's no minimum WPM requirement, go as slowly as you want but at least try it.
k0cmh
08-29-2007, 03:07 PM
VXA:
OK, how is this:
Dadg Bland NCTs slackards who won't learn CW and use CB thinggies on Ham radio, and blad darn the FCC who is causing the death of Ham radio with their gosh blasted dumbing down of the flagarumic regulations, and all those flabamblar rotationalizing 5 wpm general/extras slackards who took advantage the first stage by the blaspherming FCC who reduced the code speed so that any dad blarn dummy could get a license and cause the total ruine of Ham radio and the down fall of western society as we know it, and . . . . . . .
kc2orw
08-29-2007, 03:09 PM
Quote[/b] (n8yx @ Aug. 29 2007,08:02)]Quote[/b] (kb2vxa @ Aug. 29 2007,07:52)]Now the door is wide open to the usual remarks about the NCG invasion so TAKE IT AWAAAAAY! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
All Techs (code, no-code, whatever) should immediately be given free and unfettered access to 14.275 ...
They might sell their equipment immediately and take up a new hobby http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
kc2orw
08-29-2007, 03:11 PM
Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Aug. 29 2007,08:05)]Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ Aug. 29 2007,06:23)]Well I think some of you might have missed a point here and you would have to ask it directly to know for sure.
It might very well be that some people are interested in shorter wavelengths due to antenna restrictions. If 10 meters were open I would be very happy as the antenna requirements make it easier to put together a decent antenna.
Yep, they can use their CB antenna on 10M with minor mods and their Ranger is now legal. Saves big $$$$.
Exactly http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
PS: Well maybe not the Ranger part on second thought a ten meter dipole is easily manufactured don't even need to buy. It all boils down to the length required. you can make a pretty nice dipole with 16 feet of wire.
WA9SVD
08-29-2007, 03:39 PM
Quote[/b] (WS2L @ Aug. 29 2007,06:10)]Sometimes I think that allowing Tech's on 10 meters was a bad idea. I do think they should be allowed a small area of phone privilages but they should have put it somewhere on 75 meters. I know that 75 is bad enough but since they expanded the phone allocations on 75 it would have been a better choice. At least on 75 meters you can make a contact day or night no matter where in the cycle where we are. Sunspots are dead and 10 meters is dead so why not change it to a band where they can build a dipole and allot say 100kc at the bottom of the phone band. Then the Tech's might actually learn something from being able to talk to other hams no matter where we are in the cycle.
Just my 2 cents.
I await the flame thrower http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
No, not a flame thrower, but a differing opinion.
The Techs (and Novices) were given some 10 Meter privileges to allow a "taste" of HF capabilities, (albeit very limited to sunspot cycle variability) with reasonable access to equipment and antennas. While it's not the best band at present (except for Sporadic E this past Summer, which is mostly over) the present propagation on 10 Meters "stinks.' (Other euphemisms may apply.)
But 10 Meters allows many Amateurs to put up antennas that ARE just plain impossible for lower bands. And at least in the (near) future, they will have potentially world-wide communication capability. THAT will provide the incentive to upgrade to General or Extra, to utilize HF on a more regular basis.
But that's not the situation with all Techs. Certainly, not all are even interested in HF; many are interested, even satisfied, whth the privileges, as their interest, and contribution to Amateur Radio (potential or realized) lies in their interest in VHF, UHF and obviously, the microwave regions, where license "class" is meaningless, or holds no advantage.
Similarly, not all Amateurs can create an effective antenna system, so they are not interested in pursuit of HF at any given time.
(OK, I admit, I WAS in that category. For over 35 years as a TEch, I had no ability to put up any antenna of usable proportion, so I never had a motivation to upgrade.)
With (major) geographical changes, I DID appreciate the final ability to experience 10 Meters (along with 35 + years on 6 Meters and 2 Meters and some 70 cm work) and began to listen again to HF Amateur banter.
Well, long story short, I did upgrade. But I AM still limited to a 20 Meter dipole. (with a fan underneith for 15 and 10 Meters.) But THAT is all I can physically accomodate, given the present property, power lines, etc.
Even if I wanted to, I just don't have the physical area to put up a dipole or many other antennas for 40 or 80/75 Meters. (Even a true ground mounted vertical for 10 Meters or lower in frequency would be within 10-15 feet of power and/or telephone lines; not just mine, but the power lines to a neighbor as well. Should a disaster strike to knock out MY electric power I might accept the consequences, but it's not something my neighbors would accept willingly or even unwillingly. (Or should they have to.)
AA0CX
08-29-2007, 03:52 PM
Okay, so some people may take offense at this, but if you want to work other stations you have to do so where the bands are open. In which case, lately, 10 is not open much. So you can either sit and bitch about 10 not being open, wring your hands, and whine about not being able to work people on HF, or, you can learn some elementary Morse code and get on the lower bands and try.
For example, 40 Meters is great in the evening -- and it's generally open to somewhere in your region during the day.
That's what I did way back when I got my Novice ticket -- and it wasn't all that long ago ('87). Of course, back then, if you wanted to get out of the Novice bands and work in Nirvana (20 Meters) you had to upgrade to General.
Of course, if you're totally opposed to the code, think it's a waste, yada yada, just go out and buy a General Class study guide. And upgrade. It ain't that hard, folks. A few hours a nite for a week or so on the question pool should put you in good shape.
As far as I'm concerned, 40 CW is my hangout right now. See you there some evening! I'd be happy to work you!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
ab9lz
08-29-2007, 03:54 PM
Ok Heath I see this as another not so thinly veiled attempt to push morse on the unwashed masses. Frankly, the folks who give a rats ass are probably generals and above already due to the fact that the testing is so easy and those comitted to ham radio will have upgraded as quickly as possible.
BTW the few Technicians that go out of their way to take advantage of their HF allocations outside of the 10 meter CB channel should be held up as heros, and are likely to not stay technicians for very long.
73 m/4
KE5FRF
08-29-2007, 04:02 PM
Quote[/b] (ab9lz @ Aug. 29 2007,10:54)]Ok Heath I see this as another not so thinly veiled attempt to push morse on the unwashed masses. Frankly, the folks who give a rats ass are probably generals and above already due to the fact that the testing is so easy and those comitted to ham radio will have upgraded as quickly as possible.
BTW the few Technicians that go out of their way to take advantage of their HF allocations outside of the 10 meter CB channel should be held up as heros, and are likely to not stay technicians for very long.
73 m/4
I do not deny that I am trying to encourage the use of CW, Mark. "Push" it is not the word I would choose. I much prefer to show them WHY it is to their own advantage. If I get through to just one or two, then I've done a good thing. So yes, this is a thinly vieled attempt, but it wasn't supposed to be veiled in the first place.
I agree with you that Techs who are using the lower HF bands for CW right now are model hams. However they are a rare breed, few and far between. There are a couple of guys on the board lately who have been practicing and asking for advice. Kudos to them.
K7JEM
08-29-2007, 04:03 PM
As Mark says, the simple solution is either to learn code to use the allocated frequencies, or upgrade to general. Either option is not that hard, a person could learn enough code to get on at some very slow speed in just a few days.
Or, as someone said, interface your computer to the radio and run CW that way. Maybe whet their appetite for actually learning the code.
If the person has no desire for code, he could spend the same amount of time with the general class study guide, and online tests and question pools. Then he could upgrade to general and get some real bandwidth on multiple bands, and be allocated many more modes, other than CW.
Joe
N8UZE
08-29-2007, 04:03 PM
Antennas are not the limiting factor. #If you can put up a 10 meter antenna you can put up antennas for the lower bands. #Loaded dipoles come to mind. #For example some people take a couple of 40 meter or 80 meter mobile hamsticks and get the adapter to turn them into a dipole. #While these are narrow banded, they do work and are only 14 feet or so end to end. #Same could be done for 15 meters or 80 meters.
Even with "impossible" situations there are solutions.
I will grant that these compromise antennas aren't great but you can still work across the country and around the world with some regularity.
It all comes down to the difference in attitudes. #It's the "xxxx prevents me from doing anything" versus "how can I overcome this limitation?". #
I've worked Brazil, Serbia, Belgium, etc, sitting in my car in the parking lot at work and/or nearby shopping center at lunch time. #In the evenings, it's the parking lot of nearby public park. #This is just using an ordinary Hustler antenna.
kc2orw
08-29-2007, 04:09 PM
Quote[/b] (ab9lz @ Aug. 29 2007,08:54)]Ok Heath I see this as another not so thinly veiled attempt to push morse on the unwashed masses. Frankly, the folks who give a rats ass are probably generals and above already due to the fact that the testing is so easy and those comitted to ham radio will have upgraded as quickly as possible.
Nothing wrong with Heath encouraging people veiled or otherwise great that he does it http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Ah dreams of even an attic antenna... that would be like... nirvana http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
N1LAF
08-29-2007, 04:12 PM
Quote[/b] (n8yx @ Aug. 29 2007,08:02)]Quote[/b] (kb2vxa @ Aug. 29 2007,07:52)]Now the door is wide open to the usual remarks about the NCG invasion so TAKE IT AWAAAAAY! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
All Techs (code, no-code, whatever) should immediately be given free and unfettered access to 14.275 ...
I was thinking the same thing... 14.275 would be overrun - problem solved at the same time.
kc2orw
08-29-2007, 04:12 PM
Quote[/b] (N8UZE @ Aug. 29 2007,09:03)]It all comes down to the difference in attitudes. It's the "xxxx prevents me from doing anything" versus "how can I overcome this limitation?".
I've worked Brazil, Serbia, Belgium, etc, sitting in my car in the parking lot at work and/or nearby shopping center at lunch time. In the evenings, it's the parking lot of nearby public park. This is just using an ordinary Hustler antenna.
Ah if only I could do that it would be like Nirvana but that is what I am working on... overcoming the limitation http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
KE5FRF
08-29-2007, 04:14 PM
Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Aug. 29 2007,11:03)]As Mark says, the simple solution is either to learn code to use the allocated frequencies, or upgrade to general. Either option is not that hard, a person could learn enough code to get on at some very slow speed in just a few days.
Or, as someone said, interface your computer to the radio and run CW that way. Maybe whet their appetite for actually learning the code.
If the person has no desire for code, he could spend the same amount of time with the general class study guide, and online tests and question pools. Then he could upgrade to general and get some real bandwidth on multiple bands, and be allocated many more modes, other than CW.
Joe
Yes Joe, it is no doubt true that anyone wishing to get on HF COULD just go right out, get the ARRL General study guide, and be yakking it up on 20 and 40 meters tomorrow if they so desired. Yep, that is about the same amount of effort that learning Morse Code would take and they would have more opportunities.
I certainly do not wish to discourage anyone from upgrading to General.
My point here is that for anyone who has any inkling of desire to learn something that might benefit them in the future, there is no reason not to start TODAY. You need not even purchase a book. Software is available all over the internet to aid the learning process for FREE. Most people have rigs with internal keyers built in and fashioning a single lever paddle for CW is a pretty inexpensive task...especially for practice and for slower speed QSOs during the learning phase. A lot of guys on this board like myself would be more than willing to work with a new guy, patiently, to help teach them Morse Code. I'd do a sked every evening with someone if they so desired.
And I'm not focusing on the Techs who have been licensed for years. I'm talking about the brand new hams who just got their licenses. Too many of them are getting on the air and all they hear about is "10 meters" and there are scant few people mentioning 80,40 meter CW to them. It's a case of learning about ham radio from the crowd you are introduced to. If that crowd has an aversion to CW, this is (sad but true) likely to rub off on a lot of new guys. And THAT is a dreaded shame.
KE5FRF
08-29-2007, 04:16 PM
Quote[/b] (N8UZE @ Aug. 29 2007,11:03)]Antennas are not the limiting factor. #If you can put up a 10 meter antenna you can put up antennas for the lower bands. #Loaded dipoles come to mind. #For example some people take a couple of 40 meter or 80 meter mobile hamsticks and get the adapter to turn them into a dipole. #While these are narrow banded, they do work and are only 14 feet or so end to end. #Same could be done for 15 meters or 80 meters.
Even with "impossible" situations there are solutions.
I will grant that these compromise antennas aren't great but you can still work across the country and around the world with some regularity.
It all comes down to the difference in attitudes. #It's the "xxxx prevents me from doing anything" versus "how can I overcome this limitation?". #
I've worked Brazil, Serbia, Belgium, etc, sitting in my car in the parking lot at work and/or nearby shopping center at lunch time. #In the evenings, it's the parking lot of nearby public park. #This is just using an ordinary Hustler antenna.
Dee,
Your OM doesn't know how lucky he is. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
AA0CX
08-29-2007, 04:20 PM
Point well taken, Heath! Didn't think about the internet, etc. I had a "senior moment" there!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
KE5FRF
08-29-2007, 04:21 PM
In fact,
Let me announce that I have a homebrew set of iambic paddles...not the best in the world but they work. Kind of stiff...but you CAN use them. I will send these to ANY TECH on this message board who isn't learning CW yet , shipping paid, if they will promise to use them, practice with them, and set up some skeds with me and other QRZ members.
Again, a free set of homebrew paddles...big bulky monstrosity that they are, to any Tech willing to put up a 40 meter dipole and work CW with me a few nights a week.
Quote[/b] (k0cmh @ Aug. 29 2007,08:07)]VXA:
OK, how is this:
Dadg Bland NCTs slackards who won't learn CW and use CB thinggies on Ham radio, and blad darn the FCC who is causing the death of Ham radio with their gosh blasted dumbing down of the flagarumic regulations, and all those flabamblar rotationalizing 5 wpm general/extras slackards who took advantage the first stage by the blaspherming FCC who reduced the code speed so that any dad blarn dummy could get a license and cause the total ruine of Ham radio and the down fall of western society as we know it, and . . . . . . .
You need to chill. It's over and the test isn't coming back. Get over it! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
K5UOS
08-29-2007, 04:42 PM
Utilization of privilidges is a personal thing. Part of the reason I got my ticket was to use my homebrew gear not because of a particular mode.
I just happen to like CW having been exposed to it since birth by my dad, W1KPS.
I could have stayed a Novice forever if it wasn't for my dad bugging the heck out of me!!
Heath obviously feels passionate about CW. I heard Heath working WC3O, Bob on his 3TTTTTTT (?) ft club station antenna last night.
He sounded like an OT for only 2 years or less on CW. He sets a fine standard for new amateurs.
However, the joy of amateur radio is the diversity of the activities from emergency communications to homebrew to EME to the spouse who merely got her Tech license just to do something with his/her mate.
Respectfully, some of you fellas are more irritating than reformed smokers...ugh!! # #
Mode snobs!!!
K5UOS
kc4umo
08-29-2007, 04:43 PM
Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 28 2007,10:02)]I agree with you that Techs who are using the lower HF bands for CW right now are model hams. However they are a rare breed, few and far between. There are a couple of guys on the board lately who have been practicing and asking for advice. Kudos to them.
Model hams eh?
That’s got to be the niece’s thing I ever heard anyone say about us old Techs. And I been one for 17 years.
Thanks you.
You are right, there seems to be few of us left. Most of them upgraded when the code dropped or just not active anymore. I know a lot of them.
Over 60 percent of my time on the air is on Hf cw bands. About 5 percent on 10 meters, and the rest is divided into 2m, 70cm, 6m ssb, FM simplex. No repeaters.
I agree we are a rare breed.
Great topic Heath.
See ya on the brass bands…
KE5FRF
08-29-2007, 04:53 PM
Quote[/b] (K5UOS @ Aug. 29 2007,11:42)]Utilization of privilidges is a personal thing. Part of the reason I got my ticket was to use my homebrew gear not because of a particular mode.
I just happen to like CW having been exposed to it since birth by my dad, W1KPS.
I could have stayed a Novice forever if it wasn't for my dad bugging the heck out of me!!
Heath obviously feels passionate about CW. I heard Heath working WC3O, Bob on his 3TTTTTTT (?) ft club station antenna last night.
He sounded like an OT for only 2 years or less on CW. He sets a fine standard for new amateurs.
However, the joy of amateur radio is the diversity of the activities from emergency communications to homebrew to EME to the spouse who merely got her Tech license just to do something with his/her mate.
Respectfully, some of you fellas are more irritating than reformed smokers...ugh!! # #
Mode snobs!!!
K5UOS
ROTFL.
You heard that? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
I'm just trying to be an encouragement. I want people to talk to in the coming years!
WA9SVD
08-29-2007, 05:05 PM
Just IMHO I think we will (NOW) attract many more Morse users, if not afficianados, now that the requirement is gone (for better or worse.)
Now that the abject requiremt is gone, I believe we will find a large population of Amateurs (OF's, OT's already) and newbies (WELCOME!!!) who actually WANT to use or at least learn Morse communication.
For a LONG time, the Morse proficiency was a requirement, yet a large majority of Amateurs (once passed/upgraded) never used the medium, or even had an interest. NEW ehthusiasts are those operators who WILL keep the medium alive, hopefully into the NEXT century. Not because it is some superior mode, or for the sake of a manual mode of communication unequalled by ANY other technology, but from the pure joy of the "I did it myself" spirit.
K5UOS
08-29-2007, 05:07 PM
I listened to most of the QSO. The girls kicked me out into the shack because the grandson was sleeping. I turned on the tube receiver and heard you calling. I suspect Bob was using an unfamiliar club keyer. Wasn't 40M was beautiful last night? I thought the way you responded to his 3TTTTTT ft antenna remark was great.
I looked up the club station Bob was operating from. They have a nice club station...K3MJW.
K5UOS
KE5FRF
08-29-2007, 05:12 PM
Quote[/b] (K5UOS @ Aug. 29 2007,12:07)]I listened to most of the QSO. The girls kicked me out into the shack because the grandson was sleeping. I turned on the tube receiver and heard you calling. I suspect Bob was using an unfamiliar club keyer. Wasn't 40M was beautiful last night? I thought the way you responded to his 3TTTTTT ft antenna remark was great.
I looked up the club station Bob was operating from. They have a nice club station...K3MJW.
K5UOS
LOL,
Yes, his keyer got stuck I believe. I too went to the website and browsed around. I saw a real neat QST write-up about a touch keyer Bob built in a Hershey's Kiss tin.
I was a little disapponted they didn't have a guest book to sign.
Next time you hear me on the band, please tail-end the QSO! It would be a pleasure to work you. (Makes me wonder just how often my QSOs are sandbagged http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif )
KI4NGN
08-29-2007, 05:14 PM
The original post is meant as an encouragement, but it states that code is an obstacle to be overcome for those Techs to venture below 10 meters.
Perhaps for some, but I have met several techs who were fine, very knowledgable operators who just had no interest in code. Period.
That is one aspect that many just don't seem to be able to accept...many don't have any interest in that mode. This is in no way limited to Techs, but crosses all license boundaries.
Yes, if they have no interest in code then it is an obstacle to the lower bands because code is the only mode allowed them there. The fact of that restriction isn't going to change those who have no interest in code.
Most all people would like to use the car pool lane because it moves faster than other lanes. However many people just have no interest in changing their schedules or giving up their flexibility just to car pool and use those lanes. So they drive where they're allowed, and they're still entitled to complain about slow traffic.
Mike
ab1ga
08-29-2007, 05:15 PM
Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 29 2007,11:53)]ROTFL.
You heard that? #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
I'm just trying to be an encouragement. I want people to talk to in the coming years!
Heath,
Just get on the air; you've done all you can here.
You're looking for new hams with the curiousity they need and without the baggage they don't need to give CW a try.
I don't think you'll find them on QRZ: too many wounds left to heal, too many axes to grind, not enough willingness to climb down and meet in the middle.
Let word of mouth work for you. Get on 28.300-28.500, announce the time and place for "Heath's Slow Speed CW Revival Hour", and start a net on 10. Sure, only locals will hear you when the band stinks, but when you've assembled your core group, you can start another net on the lower bands, maybe a bit faster. Friends tell friends, and the rest is history...
Not to ladle it on too thick, but you seem a kind, personable, and knowledgeable fellow, and I think you could pull this off and have a lot of fun doing it. Certainly more fun than posting a CW thread here and ducking the crossfire!
(If you do start a net, you should still post the time and place here. You never know who might want to lurk and learn something while preserving their posture....) http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
KE5FRF
08-29-2007, 05:21 PM
That's a great idea...but if I were to do something like that, I'd just do it on 40 meters.
1) Encourage these folks to put up a 40 meter antenna.
2) Chances are much better of being heard.
3) Like it or not, they'd be using some of the HF privelages they have otherwise ignored.
My offer still stands with the homebrew paddle giveaway. And I may just take that idea and run with it!
W4INF
08-29-2007, 05:23 PM
The next step from Tech is Gen... It took me a while, but I was unsatisfied with what Tech offered so I moved up to Gen. I tip my hat to these guys, trying to do the most with what they are allowed, at least they show a TRUE HAM SPIRIT. Now, someone comes in and dogs them over it. What a shame. No wonder.... you fill in the blanks.
KE5FRF
08-29-2007, 05:33 PM
Quote[/b] (W4INF @ Aug. 29 2007,12:23)]The next step from Tech is Gen... It took me a while, but I was unsatisfied with what Tech offered so I moved up to Gen. I tip my hat to these guys, trying to do the most with what they are allowed, at least they show a TRUE HAM SPIRIT. #Now, someone comes in and dogs them over it. What a shame. #No wonder.... you fill in the blanks.
I haven't seen anyone "dog" anybody (yet). Where did you see someone being "dogged"?
Heath: There atleast ten tech class operators in my area that constantly b#tched and p#ssed and moaned about when will the fcc drop the code, Well now that the code has been dropped only two or three have upgraded to general, Also these are the same individuals everyone hears on there scanners, and thats what the lay person think's of the amateur community in this area, It is a very sad, very sad indeed... N9FE
WA9SVD
08-29-2007, 05:43 PM
Quote[/b] (AA0CX @ Aug. 29 2007,08:52)]Okay, so some people may take offense at this, but if you want to work other stations you have to do so where the bands are open. In which case, lately, 10 is not open much. So you can either sit and bitch about 10 not being open, wring your hands, and whine about not being able to work people on HF, or, you can learn some elementary Morse code and get on the lower bands and try.
No, not an offense, but I do perceive a "paradigm shift," whatever that really means.
I was a Tech for 35 years; my REAL interest (read:passion) was, still is, and probably always will be for the VHF and above propagation modes and challenges. (STRESS challenges!)
And because of physical limitations on properties, I had no capability or even possibility of ANY antenna with HF capability; so I did NOT have a "real" incentive" to upgrade at any particular time.
Again, without the possibility of putting up a decent HF antenna, I didn't see a need for an upgrade.
I guess the point is that I, (and I'm sure there were many like myself) did not "mitch and boan" about HF being inaccessible, and looked at General (or better) as an upgrade path, with specific requirements. We did NOT lament being held back, knowing we COULD upgrade anytime we wished; not that there was some "artificial barrier" to cross; indeed, many of us in those "long ago, in a far, far distant" place" had already passed the written exam which was at that time the SAME as the Written exam for General.
Eventually, most of the old Techs either dropped out, or have now upgraded to Extra, a level I never thought I would achieve when I first got licensed 40 years ago. Then again, 40 years of licensure, experience, (and admittedly, trying to keep up with the technology) does funny things to one's psyche, making one more amenable (AND more knowledgeable) to the Amateur Extra license.
Yes there are many many tech class op's that are very smart, and also very good at what they do with the bands they have, i'm just saying what i hear in my area about the "few" that will most likely never upgrade.. N9FE
Quote[/b] (W4INF @ Aug. 29 2007,12:23)]The next step from Tech is Gen... It took me a while, but I was unsatisfied with what Tech offered so I moved up to Gen. I tip my hat to these guys, trying to do the most with what they are allowed, at least they show a TRUE HAM SPIRIT. Now, someone comes in and dogs them over it. What a shame. No wonder.... you fill in the blanks.
No one is dogging anyone.
They screamed and kicked and whined for the code test to go away, and now their wish has been granted.
They've been given the ability to upgrade to voice HF privileges on all bands with a written test, and CW HF privileges on the lower bands with their existing tech ticket.
What Heath is doing is trying to encourage people to use their privileges. Make lemonade out of lemons.
What's so wrong about that?
Don't answer - I know what's wrong. In order to get on the lower bands (40, 80, even 15) they have to learn code or take a written test. In other words, take some effort to get some more privileges.
I guess some people won't be happy until it is a complete giveaway.
Next you'll hear people whining about the rare DX being only on CW, or the CW contests where the CW guys get to have all the fun and the phone guys get left with semi-empty bands.
KI4NGN
08-29-2007, 06:04 PM
Sorry Ryan, but you're missing a point. Heath wasn't referencing those who whined about code....he referenced those who lamented the poor conditions on 10. There's a big difference, and a presumption that there is a lack of motivation for them to either upgrade or use code to operate on the lower bands.
He said he is tired of hearing those lamentations about 10, and hence his encouragement.
AE6IP
08-29-2007, 06:04 PM
It's a hobby people, not a life style. The so-called incentive license system has been a failure since it was introduced. it would be better to have only one class of license based on a regulatory material test than the rancor within the ranks that the current system has created.
It is, after all, what you do with the license, not how you got it that matters.
KE5FRF
08-29-2007, 06:07 PM
Hey y'all.
This may be too much to ask here on our beloved QRZ... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ...but I really and truly would like for some folks who have never tried CW to browse through this thread and find a spark of encouragement. So I humbly ask that we keep the "dirty rotten Tech" comments to a minimum. That isn't what this thread is supposed to be about. Those who buck the encouragement will be the same who always buck it. We know who they are and they are going to do what they have always done (so "mo par" to'em to use a southern colloquialism)...But there are a few guys who will read this thread and (hopefully) feel an internal nudge to lay down the gauntlet and try to learn it. Those are the guys to whom I speak. Lets try to encourage these guys to put up a 40 meter antenna and lets volunteer to work them.
Again, I have this homebrew set of paddles that will go to the first non-code amateur who wishes to try CW. I'll pay the shipping. The caveat is that you have to take the time to learn the code and work me a few times for practice.
Am I beating myself up here on QRZ? Is this a waste of bandwidth? maybe, maybe not. But the offer stands.
I feel a QRZ CW net coming on.
Any takers?
KE5FRF
08-29-2007, 06:10 PM
Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Aug. 29 2007,13:04)]It's a hobby people, not a life style. The so-called incentive license system has been a failure since it was introduced. it would be better to have only one class of license based on a regulatory material test than the rancor within the ranks that the current system has created.
It is, after all, what you do with the license, not how you got it that matters.
Marty, this isn't a code fight. It has nothing to do with incentive licensing, mode preference, any of that. It has everything to do with 10 meters being lousy right now and there being a way to enjoy this hobby even when conditions are poor. Those who won't won't and those who will will. But sometimes the willing need a nudge. This is "that nudge". I'd appreciate it if you'd allow me to "nudge" without turning it the other way.
KE5FRF
08-29-2007, 06:15 PM
Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Aug. 29 2007,13:09)]I feel a QRZ CW net coming on.
Any takers?
OK, this has been tried before and didn't do so hot.
I'd be willing to do this if at least FIVE people commited to a slow speed CW net every weekend for the next couple of months. I'd be more than happy to have a "QRZ NOVICE NET" or something like that. I'd do net control...be more than happy.
Of course, this means that 5 people would have to be willing to at least learn their callsigns in Morse Code and recognize them. They'd have to be willing to study all 26 letters of the alphabet and the numbers.
If 5 people volunteered to commit, I'd do it. Otherwise I know I'd be wasting my time.
Fun thread Heath. I do believe you're fishing the Pogie Pond here on QRZ.COM looking for possible CW Ops. New Hams might give it a try but many "upgrades" are so bitter that they consider CW ignorance their "red badge of courage".
Look forward to working you on the bands soon.
k0cmh
08-29-2007, 06:30 PM
Man, I hope the word doesn't get out that I don't have the ability to work every band availabel to me as a General. My current antennas just will not load up well enough to function on the WAR bands.
I hope I don't get criticized for not selling my house so that I can put up an antenna for every band that I have privileges for.
Ohhhhhhh, but my protest does not hold water for this thread. I do not complain about the propagation on the bands I do work.
But I do make contacts on 10 meters, just not every night. And sometimes the conditions on 20 or 40 or 160 prevent me from making contacts there. But I don't complain, I just go to a different band and try there.
Ahhhh, the life of an upgrade. It doesn't get much better.
sorry, never mind. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
KE5FRF
08-29-2007, 06:52 PM
Quote[/b] (k0cmh @ Aug. 29 2007,13:30)]Man, I hope the word doesn't get out that I don't have the ability to work every band availabel to me as a General. #My current antennas just will not load up well enough to function on the WAR bands.
I hope I don't get criticized for not selling my house so that I can put up an antenna for every band that I have privileges for.
Ohhhhhhh, but my protest does not hold water for this thread. #I do not complain about the propagation on the bands I do work.
But I do make contacts on 10 meters, just not every night. #And sometimes the conditions on 20 or 40 or 160 prevent me from making contacts there. #But I don't complain, I just go to a different band and try there. #
Ahhhh, the life of an upgrade. #It doesn't get much better.
sorry, never mind. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Look.
That excuse only applies to a handful of people (the "I can't get an antenna up for anything other than 10 meters thing".
The simple reality is that a vast number of people are either long term Techs who haven't upgraded because they don't like taking tests, new Techs who want some operating time before upgrading, less financially fortunate who don't think thay can afford HF gear, or simply folks who haven't gotten "a round tuit" yet.
Now, a big chunk of these guys already own all-mode radios for HF. For those who don't, QRP gear can be built for less than 100 dollars.
They want the propogation of 20 meters but aren't happy because 10 meters isn't steady and dependable.
But instead of saying, "Hey, I have those 40 meter CW privelages that I'm not using. Boy, I sure would like to try 40 meters out".....They sit around on their hands frustrated. The 10 meter thing just isn't enough.
But nobody says "Hey, I know, I'll try CW!" Nope. Just more can'ts, won'ts, nevers, etc.
It befuddles me that this is the case. And its almost universal. Save for a few isolated cases, I have yet to see more than a handful stand up and say, "Dang it, I have the privelages and I'm going to use them"!
The truth is I saw more people laying down the gauntlet and learning CW to get on HF BEFORE the code requirement went away. At least then, some people who took the time to learn it figured "what the heck" and dicovered they liked it. Now, it is like playing monopoly. You just pass "Go" and get to where you're going. I sure would like to see more people take the time to learn it. And that is what this thread is about.
Heath, I think that those who are seriously interested in HF have upgraded to General already.
I hate to say give up, but I feel as if you're wasting your time.
K7JEM
08-29-2007, 07:00 PM
Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Aug. 29 2007,11:58)]Heath, I think that those who are seriously interested in HF have upgraded to General already.
I hate to say give up, but I feel as if you're wasting your time.
Ditto.
KA4DPO
08-29-2007, 07:02 PM
That's too bad, I hate to think that the majority of Techs aren't at least willing to give CW a try. They are missing out on big segment of the hobby by sticking their heads in the sand.
kc2orw
08-29-2007, 07:04 PM
Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Aug. 29 2007,11:58)]Heath, I think that those who are seriously interested in HF have upgraded to General already.
I hate to say give up, but I feel as if you're wasting your time.
Oh I don't think he should give up but he might have to lower his expectations as to turn out. I better get another job and move sooner unless I can get a magical magnetic loop to work http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
N8UZE
08-29-2007, 07:30 PM
Heck encourage them to use the computer to decode CW. If the signals are reasonably good, this can work. Many may have to resort to a computer to send so that the other computers can copy. But that's not a bad thing. Older ops often end up sending with a keyboard once their hands get shakey even though the are experts at CW.
Keyboard CW may be what finally intrigues them to make a stab at CW.
Remember the earliest Morse code (landline) telegraph signals were recorded on a paper tape and decoded after the fact. Then some people noticed that over time they had learned to copy the signal without looking at the paper tape. Thus was born "the telegrapher". We may see some people get into CW this way. If they work enough QSOs with the computer, eventually some will find they no longer need it.
AJ4BF
08-29-2007, 11:42 PM
Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Aug. 29 2007,07:44)]I'd like to see some calling frequencies established for computerized CW, and maybe a distinctive CQ - "CQ CCW" for computerized CW, perhaps.
I like the idea of encouraging techs (and others) to experience CW using computers. How about "CQ KBCW" for KeyBoard CW?
I'm sure some (don't know how many) more people would experiment with Morse if there were nets/channels were keyboard ops would not be looked down upon. A recent thread on that other (yellow) website revealed that a lot of people are using keyboards already.
How would you reach a lot of Techs to let them know about the possibility of using KBCW to do DX on HF bands? (Does anybody care about this enough to pay for mailing a postcard to every Tech licensee, for example?)
KE5FRF
08-29-2007, 11:49 PM
Quote[/b] (AJ4BF @ Aug. 29 2007,18:42)]Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Aug. 29 2007,07:44)]I'd like to see some calling frequencies established for computerized CW, and maybe a distinctive CQ - "CQ CCW" for computerized CW, perhaps.
I like the idea of encouraging techs (and others) to experience CW using computers. How about "CQ KBCW" for KeyBoard CW?
I'm sure some (don't know how many) more people would experiment with Morse if there were nets/channels were keyboard ops would not be looked down upon. A recent thread on that other (yellow) website revealed that a lot of people are using keyboards already.
How would you reach a lot of Techs to let them know about the possibility of using KBCW to do DX on HF bands? (Does anybody care about this enough to pay for mailing a postcard to every Tech licensee, for example?)
Well,
# I'm pretty sure that the ARRL would be happy to publish something in QST (even if it is in the letters to the editor).
Heck, I might even suggest something along those lines to ARRL HQ.
BTW, I personally have no issue with someone using a keyboard on CW to send...I also don't mind them using it as a learning aid to copy. I just feel that the end "target" should be learning to head copy. If they can set their keyboard/computer up so that they can also monitor the audio of the CW transmission, its all good. They could watch the letters scrolling on the screen and perhaps develop recognition skills. Not a bad way to learn it IMHO. However, there are nuances to CW operation where only head copy can work. For instance, procedural signals. If the TX stations sent "AS" to the keyboard op, and his computer copied "AH" by mistake, the keyboard op will not know what is going on. He has a dependancy for visualizing what is on the screen. With headcopy, it becomes intuitive. The "sound" of "didah dididit" is an immediate notice to stand by for a few seconds. The keyboard op will be confused.
Telegraphy is an art that can never be replaced by a computer.
KD5HLG
08-29-2007, 11:53 PM
with out offinding any one I HOPE
what do you say to the few of us who tried every thing but could not learn code, but did upgrade as soon as the code was droped
I invested in a sound card interface and software, but have yet to get anyone to answer my cq's on cw
73's
KD5HLG
ernest
KE5FRF
08-29-2007, 11:59 PM
Quote[/b] (KD5HLG @ Aug. 29 2007,18:53)]with out offinding any one I HOPE
what do you say to the few of us who tried every thing but could not learn code, but did upgrade as soon as the code was droped
I invested in a sound card interface and software, but have yet to get anyone to answer my cq's on cw
73's
KD5HLG
ernest
Hi Ernest.
I'd be glad to work you with your computer. If you want a sked sometime we can do it.
I'm not here to gripe about people who have trouble with code. But there are a lot of folks out there who never tried and don't know what they are missing. I speak from experience because at one time I swore I'd never learn it. But I did! And I never looked back.
The only catch to working you is I'd prefer it that you have the intention to try and learn to copy it yourself. It does nothing for me to work someone on CW who has no interest in CW for CW's sake...if that makes sense.
ai4ep
08-30-2007, 12:47 AM
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #I am so glad that I did not wait for the FCC to drop the C W requirement for HF usage.
Sure it would have been so easy to do it, but learning ( and using ) CW is all kinds of fun.
Plus the bragging rights...even at 5 wpm.
Plus I dont have to explain to any one about whether I DID learn CW or not by the dates of my call sign updates about my lack of willing to learn things the tough way.
I also just did all I could to achieve all I could with the FCC rules of the day...I did not wait for things to get easier, because we all know how easy those WRITTEN tests are.
I only missed 3 on my extra test. only 3 !!!
Can or did you do better ?
simple and to the point. # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
NN4RH
08-30-2007, 01:05 AM
Back in the 'old days' when there was a Novice license, which was supposedly an HF entry level license, what proportion of Novices ever upgraded to General or above? How did that upgrade rate then compare with the upgrade rate now?
Any chance that this this "problem" has always been a "problem" and therefore is normal?
ai4ep
08-30-2007, 01:19 AM
...back in the " old days " there was no internet to learn from.....it was a definately different time and todays practices can not be used as a reference.
Would we be communicating via radio if we had no computers ?
Sure ly some time back in the past the bands were as dead as they are now, how did amateurs back then communicate, since they had no internet / computers ?
---- I dont think any one has mentioned a scenerio like this---- !!
N8UZE
08-30-2007, 01:21 AM
Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Aug. 29 2007,20:47)]I only missed 3 on my extra test. #only 3 #!!!
Can or did you do better ?
simple and to the point. # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Well if you insist:
Novice written - missed 0
Tech written - missed 0
General written - missed 0
Advanced written - missed 1
Extra written - missed 0
Didn't fare quite as well on the code tests as I missed 3 each on the 5wpm, 13 wpm, and 20wpm test. But it was still a pass each time.
ai4ep
08-30-2007, 01:23 AM
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif Congradulations !!
I KNEW there had to be some one out there that did as good as I did or even better !!
Thanks for speaking up !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
N8UZE
08-30-2007, 01:32 AM
Usually I don't mention it as a pass is a pass and what really counts is putting it to use effectively.
2nd RadioTelephone = Passed # No idea by how many, #did it really matter ?
1st RadioTelephone = failed the first time. # That's all I knew then, and all I know now.
1st RadioTelephone = passed on the second attempt a year later. #That's all I knew then, and all I know now. #
Fast forward 5 years
Novice Exam = I have no idea. #My testing "Elmer" wouldn't tell me! #I think I did see a big smile on his face, though. #My License came in the mail several long days later !
General Exam = My testing FCC Official asked me if I wanted to take the Advanced, so I knew I had passed them ( code and written ! )
Advanced Exam = ditto for the written . # Those FCC guys were rough. They wouldn't give you ANY advanced information! Those waits for the mailman were AGONY!
Fast forward nearly a year.
Extra Exam = ditto ditto. # My ditto ditto. # Had to wait for the mailman to deliver the treasured document! #
Now you know as much about my examination history as I do!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
KE5FRF
08-30-2007, 01:37 AM
Dee,
Just as a sidebar...I just had the most amazing of QSOs....amazing because I am seeing you talk about amateur radio from the point of view of a YL which is not common for most of us to see and hear.
I QSOed with W6CL, Carol ...who happens to be the XYL of the CQ VHF editor....I bet Glen knows Joe.
Propogation shut down on us and I lost her but I had a nice hour long or so ragchew.
Sure would like to chat with another CW YL anytime you want to give it a shot!
kc4umo
08-30-2007, 01:40 AM
First Novice test.....Failed!
I was so excited that I had passed the code that I could not concentrate.
Second Novice test a week later. missed 1
Tech Test…missed 0
kc2orw
08-30-2007, 02:37 AM
Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Aug. 29 2007,18:19)]Would we be communicating via radio if we had no computers ?
I will put it to you this way..... no.
And I don't intend it as a way to just conflict with you I just figure it is highly unlikely.
KE5FRF
08-30-2007, 03:30 PM
Well, I never recieved any reply on my offer to send my homebrew paddles (shipping paid) to anyone willing to try CW. The offer still stands but I'm very disappointed that there have been no takers.
WA9SVD
08-30-2007, 04:04 PM
Quote[/b] (N8UZE @ Aug. 29 2007,09:03)]Antennas are not the limiting factor. If you can put up a 10 meter antenna you can put up antennas for the lower bands. Loaded dipoles come to mind. For example some people take a couple of 40 meter or 80 meter mobile hamsticks and get the adapter to turn them into a dipole. While these are narrow banded, they do work and are only 14 feet or so end to end. Same could be done for 15 meters or 80 meters.
Even with "impossible" situations there are solutions.
I will grant that these compromise antennas aren't great but you can still work across the country and around the world with some regularity.
It all comes down to the difference in attitudes. It's the "xxxx prevents me from doing anything" versus "how can I overcome this limitation?".
I've worked Brazil, Serbia, Belgium, etc, sitting in my car in the parking lot at work and/or nearby shopping center at lunch time. In the evenings, it's the parking lot of nearby public park. This is just using an ordinary Hustler antenna.
Well, yes they are a limiting factor, at least for some of us. Cost is also a factor. I have limited budget for Amateur Radio; but even if that weren't a consideration, I see little purpose or justification for the expenditure of finances or even energy constructing an antenna (such as for 40 Meters or 80/75 Meters) that will be a huge compromise and provide only p***-poor performance at best. Even with a "Hamstick" dipole, in my situation I would NOT be able to get it over 15 feet in height without running afoul of utility lines, my own and those of my neighbors. So yes, I CHOOSE not to endanger my equipment or my friendly relationship with the neighbor(s.) A tower is out of the question; even if finances were not a factor, it's not something the landlord would wish on his property, and I MUST honor that. A tower isn't exactly a portable item you can easily take with you if you move.
N8UZE
08-30-2007, 05:12 PM
Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ Aug. 30 2007,12:04)]Quote[/b] (N8UZE @ Aug. 29 2007,09:03)]Antennas are not the limiting factor. #If you can put up a 10 meter antenna you can put up antennas for the lower bands. #Loaded dipoles come to mind. #For example some people take a couple of 40 meter or 80 meter mobile hamsticks and get the adapter to turn them into a dipole. #While these are narrow banded, they do work and are only 14 feet or so end to end. #Same could be done for 15 meters or 80 meters.
Even with "impossible" situations there are solutions.
I will grant that these compromise antennas aren't great but you can still work across the country and around the world with some regularity.
It all comes down to the difference in attitudes. #It's the "xxxx prevents me from doing anything" versus "how can I overcome this limitation?". #
I've worked Brazil, Serbia, Belgium, etc, sitting in my car in the parking lot at work and/or nearby shopping center at lunch time. #In the evenings, it's the parking lot of nearby public park. #This is just using an ordinary Hustler antenna.
Well, yes they are a limiting factor, at least for some of us. #Cost is also a factor. #I have limited budget for Amateur Radio; but even if that weren't a consideration, I see little purpose or justification for the expenditure of finances or even energy constructing an antenna (such as for 40 Meters or 80/75 Meters) that will be a huge compromise and provide only p***-poor performance at best. #Even with a "Hamstick" dipole, in my situation I would NOT be able to get it over 15 feet in height without running afoul of utility lines, my own and those of my neighbors. #So yes, I CHOOSE not to endanger my equipment or my friendly relationship with the neighbor(s.) #A tower is out of the question; even if finances were not a factor, it's not something the landlord would wish on his property, and I MUST honor that. #A tower isn't exactly a portable item you can easily take with you if you move.
I've just discussed working the world from my car. Mobile antennas are a HUGE compromise. A short, loaded vertical isn't a very good antenna. Yet it can be done.
On the other hand, you are saying that if you have to compromise, it isn't worth doing. Do you want to operate ham radio or not? If you do, work with what you have, simple as that.
If you can't put up a tower, put up a vertical or a random wire or whatever you can. You would be surprised at what you can do. For example, conditions are in the toilet right now. Yet I worked American Samoa and Swain's Island using a G5RV that is no more than 15 ft off the ground. To make it even worse it is a horizontal V with a very small angle at the point of the V. It's a horrid compromise but it's what I can do right now. For low band (160m), I've worked most of the country using a random wire no more than 6 feet off the ground running along the top of my wooden fence. Again a poor antenna but patience and persistence have netted me a lot of states.
If cost is a factor, there's lots of antennas you can make. You don't have to spend a fortune. As far as supports go, again you don't have to spend a fortune. I've worked with wires simply flung over the roof. Other supports for wires have been simple PVC plumbing pipes set in the ground and tied off to eyebolts on the house. You can make a 20ft support quite easily and cheaply.
When life gives you lemons, make lemonade.
Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ Aug. 29 2007,21:34)]2nd RadioTelephone = Passed # No idea by how many, #did it really matter ?
What do you call a guy who finishes at the bottom of his class in medical school? Doctor
Quote[/b] ]1st RadioTelephone = failed the first time. That's all I knew then, and all I know now.
Slacker. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
3rd RadioTelephone - passed first try
2nd RadioTelephone - passed first try
1st RadioTelephone - passed first try
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
As to my ham radio tests, each one passed on the first try from NCT, then 5 WPM, then General, and finally Extra.
AE6IP
08-30-2007, 05:15 PM
The head of my VE team likes to describe barely passing the test as "being efficient". His point is that nobody but you ever needs know
As to the original theme of this thread, Techs have 3 choices right now.
1) Learn a minimum of CW to work the other bands available to you.
2) Upgrade to General.
3) Have a steaming cup of STHU until propagation turns around, if you're going to insist on staying on 10m.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
ab1ga
08-30-2007, 05:42 PM
Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 30 2007,10:30)]Well, I never recieved any reply on my offer to send my homebrew paddles (shipping paid) to anyone willing to try CW. The offer still stands but I'm very disappointed that there have been no takers.
Heath,
Don't despair! I don't need the paddles, but I'd be happy to participate in any cw net you'd like to get going.
The reason I haven't answered before is that I can't get started until early October. We're doing some remodeling and rearranging, and my gear is diffusing throughout the house as I type. Also, we're about to finish up a foreign adoption and the bureaucratic and travel arrangements are killing us right now.
Also, my wife has always been fascinated by CW and is studying for her license so she can use it to actually communicate with someone. She just started, but I'll sign her up, too. Since I suspect her of lurking here to see what kind of trouble I'm getting into, she can jump in and beg off if she doesn't think she's ready. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
WA9SVD
08-30-2007, 05:58 PM
Quote[/b] (N8UZE @ Aug. 30 2007,10:12)]Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ Aug. 30 2007,12:04)]Quote[/b] (N8UZE @ Aug. 29 2007,09:03)]Antennas are not the limiting factor. If you can put up a 10 meter antenna you can put up antennas for the lower bands. Loaded dipoles come to mind. For example some people take a couple of 40 meter or 80 meter mobile hamsticks and get the adapter to turn them into a dipole. While these are narrow banded, they do work and are only 14 feet or so end to end. Same could be done for 15 meters or 80 meters.
Even with "impossible" situations there are solutions.
I will grant that these compromise antennas aren't great but you can still work across the country and around the world with some regularity.
It all comes down to the difference in attitudes. It's the "xxxx prevents me from doing anything" versus "how can I overcome this limitation?".
I've worked Brazil, Serbia, Belgium, etc, sitting in my car in the parking lot at work and/or nearby shopping center at lunch time. In the evenings, it's the parking lot of nearby public park. This is just using an ordinary Hustler antenna.
Well, yes they are a limiting factor, at least for some of us. Cost is also a factor. I have limited budget for Amateur Radio; but even if that weren't a consideration, I see little purpose or justification for the expenditure of finances or even energy constructing an antenna (such as for 40 Meters or 80/75 Meters) that will be a huge compromise and provide only p***-poor performance at best. Even with a "Hamstick" dipole, in my situation I would NOT be able to get it over 15 feet in height without running afoul of utility lines, my own and those of my neighbors. So yes, I CHOOSE not to endanger my equipment or my friendly relationship with the neighbor(s.) A tower is out of the question; even if finances were not a factor, it's not something the landlord would wish on his property, and I MUST honor that. A tower isn't exactly a portable item you can easily take with you if you move.
I've just discussed working the world from my car. Mobile antennas are a HUGE compromise. A short, loaded vertical isn't a very good antenna. Yet it can be done.
On the other hand, you are saying that if you have to compromise, it isn't worth doing. Do you want to operate ham radio or not? If you do, work with what you have, simple as that.
If you can't put up a tower, put up a vertical or a random wire or whatever you can. You would be surprised at what you can do. For example, conditions are in the toilet right now. Yet I worked American Samoa and Swain's Island using a G5RV that is no more than 15 ft off the ground. To make it even worse it is a horizontal V with a very small angle at the point of the V. It's a horrid compromise but it's what I can do right now. For low band (160m), I've worked most of the country using a random wire no more than 6 feet off the ground running along the top of my wooden fence. Again a poor antenna but patience and persistence have netted me a lot of states.
If cost is a factor, there's lots of antennas you can make. You don't have to spend a fortune. As far as supports go, again you don't have to spend a fortune. I've worked with wires simply flung over the roof. Other supports for wires have been simple PVC plumbing pipes set in the ground and tied off to eyebolts on the house. You can make a 20ft support quite easily and cheaply.
When life gives you lemons, make lemonade.
No, that's NOT what I'm saying, or at least not what I intended. I have limitations. I ACCEPT those limitations. If I can't match the performance of the "big guns" I accept that also. And I won't try too hard to make difficult contacts on 40 or 80/75 Meters because I realize and accept those limitations. But I (personally) do not wish to use (mostly financial) resources for an antenna system on bands where I already KNOW the performance will abysmal.
Yet I DO make contacts, I do sometimes (more often than I think possible) break through pile-ups on my second or third call, and I do sometimes work the Dxpedition stations if I hear them on the air. I'm sure I would/could work many more if I actually made it a goal. But I DO know that I can't compete on many bands due to lack of a decent antenna system, and I accept that. If I get lucky, then that's a plus. I guess if I were a true DX chaser, my feelings would be different.
While in the "big picture," nothing "prevents" me from putting up an antenna farm and a tower, but practical considerations (finances, building and zoning codes, landlord) DO impose some practical limitations. The real question is HOW BADLY do I need to operate efficiently on 80/75 or 40 Meters? Can I enjoy Amateur Radio without optimum performance on those bands? Certainly, it WOULD be nice to be able to work those bands with an efficient antenna or antenna system, but at present, I find I can exist without them. (And of course, since I HAVE made a number of 40 Meter and 75 Meter contacts in the past few months, it's not an "all-or-nothing" situation, either.)
Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 29 2007,14:07)]Again, I have this homebrew set of paddles that will go to the first non-code amateur who wishes to try CW. I'll pay the shipping. The caveat is that you have to take the time to learn the code and work me a few times for practice.
I'd love to take you up on the offer Heath, but sorry to say, I haven't worn out my Brass Racer yet... and I still have to crack the Bencher out of the box to put on the second HF rig.
But if you really want to unload them, and no one else expresses an interest, let me know. We'll talk.
73
Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Aug. 29 2007,21:19)]...back in the " old days " there was no internet to learn from.....it was a definately different time and todays practices can not be used as a reference.
Would we be communicating via radio if we had no computers ?
Sure ly some time back in the past the bands were as dead as they are now, how did amateurs back then communicate, since they had no internet / computers ?
---- I dont think any one has mentioned a scenerio like this---- !!
Sure we would.
There's always groundwave and V/UHF. And today, we even have satellites!
If you're determined enough, you'll find a way.
K4GUN
08-30-2007, 08:44 PM
Quote[/b] ]I'm so frustrated I could eat glass because everywhere I look I see Technicians only talking about 10 meters. I hear it on 2 meter discussions and I see it on these internet discussions. "I sure wish 10 meters was open more", "Trying to build an antenna for 10 meters", "Looking for a 10 meter rig", etc. etc.
This is your source of frustration? That techs who don't know code are lamenting the solar cycle and trying to maximize their antennas? Just because a person doesn't take the same path as you have doesn't mean they are not allowed to complain about propgation or try to improve their use of the spectrum that they have.
I guess this is the part that really bothers me about this. I recognize the benefit of code. At some point, I might learn it. Then again, I might not. Why should that bother you? I'm probably doing things with and for radio that you are not. Does that make me frustrated? Nope. So why do the actions and decisions of others get you so upset?
WA9SVD
08-30-2007, 08:46 PM
Quote[/b] (w3wn @ Aug. 30 2007,13:23)]Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Aug. 29 2007,21:19)]...back in the " old days " there was no internet to learn from.....it was a definately different time and todays practices can not be used as a reference.
Would we be communicating via radio if we had no computers ?
Sure ly some time back in the past the bands were as dead as they are now, how did amateurs back then communicate, since they had no internet / computers ?
---- I dont think any one has mentioned a scenerio like this---- !!
Sure we would.
There's always groundwave and V/UHF. And today, we even have satellites!
If you're determined enough, you'll find a way.
V/UHF and satellites? That's so common I didn't even think of mentioning it.
VHF/UHF always has propagation, even without sporadic E. Some (a great MANY) Amateurs get along just fine on 6 Meters and above. CA to HI is my best on 2 Meters; but I've easily done 300+ miles on 6 M, 2M, and 70 cm SSB just on normal tropo propagation; CW isa usually good for a few hundred miles more.. If HF is not behaving, or blacked out, or just no usable antennas, VHF and above is always there. You just have to use a little bit of skill and expertise to pick out some of the weak signals; it IS a very different experience than HF, and more of a challenge. Maybe THAT is why there are still some of us OF's who prefer VHf and above. Much less QRM, and none of the 20 Meter/75 Meter shenanigans. Serious operators only need apply. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
kc4umo
08-30-2007, 08:54 PM
Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ Aug. 29 2007,14:46)]V/UHF and satellites? #That's so common I didn't even think of mentioning it. #
# #VHF/UHF always has propagation, even without sporadic E. #Some (a great MANY) Amateurs get along just fine on 6 Meters and above. #CA to HI is my best on 2 Meters; but I've easily done 300+ miles on 6 M, 2M, and 70 cm SSB just on normal tropo propagation; CW isa usually good for a few hundred miles more.. #If HF is not behaving, or blacked out, or just no #usable antennas, VHF and above is always there. #You just have to use a little bit of skill and expertise to pick out some of the weak signals; it IS a very different experience than HF, and more of a challenge. #Maybe THAT is why there are still some of us OF's who prefer VHf and above. #Much less QRM, and none of the 20 Meter/75 Meter shenanigans. #Serious operators only need apply. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
That satisfies most of this lowlife 5wpm techs needs. The world of vhf is an exciting one.
Good post.
Quote[/b] (w3wn @ Aug. 30 2007,15:23)]Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Aug. 29 2007,21:19)]...back in the " old days " there was no internet to learn from.....it was a definately different time and todays practices can not be used as a reference.
Would we be communicating via radio if we had no computers ?
Sure ly some time back in the past the bands were as dead as they are now, how did amateurs back then communicate, since they had no internet / computers ?
---- I dont think any one has mentioned a scenerio like this---- !!
Sure we would.
There's always groundwave and V/UHF. And today, we even have satellites!
If you're determined enough, you'll find a way.
Just to nitpick - it's LOS, not groundwave, at VHF/UHF.
WA9SVD
08-30-2007, 09:28 PM
Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Aug. 30 2007,14:20)]Quote[/b] (w3wn @ Aug. 30 2007,15:23)]Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Aug. 29 2007,21:19)]...back in the " old days " there was no internet to learn from.....it was a definately different time and todays practices can not be used as a reference.
Would we be communicating via radio if we had no computers ?
Sure ly some time back in the past the bands were as dead as they are now, how did amateurs back then communicate, since they had no internet / computers ?
---- I dont think any one has mentioned a scenerio like this---- !!
Sure we would.
There's always groundwave and V/UHF. And today, we even have satellites!
If you're determined enough, you'll find a way.
Just to nitpick - it's LOS, not groundwave, at VHF/UHF.
Actually, if you had any experience or any understanding, you'd know VHF/UHF propagation is usually MORE than just optical "LOS." (Line of sight;) "SIGHT" implying human vision. The radio horizon is greater than the optical horizon.
Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ Aug. 30 2007,16:28)]Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Aug. 30 2007,14:20)]Quote[/b] (w3wn @ Aug. 30 2007,15:23)]Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Aug. 29 2007,21:19)]...back in the " old days " there was no internet to learn from.....it was a definately different time and todays practices can not be used as a reference.
Would we be communicating via radio if we had no computers ?
Sure ly some time back in the past the bands were as dead as they are now, how did amateurs back then communicate, since they had no internet / computers ?
---- I dont think any one has mentioned a scenerio like this---- !!
Sure we would.
There's always groundwave and V/UHF. And today, we even have satellites!
If you're determined enough, you'll find a way.
Just to nitpick - it's LOS, not groundwave, at VHF/UHF.
Actually, if you had any experience or any understanding, you'd know VHF/UHF propagation is usually MORE than just optical "LOS." (Line of sight;) "SIGHT" implying human vision. The radio horizon is greater than the optical horizon.
I never said it was optical LOS...
I said it was LOS.
I have plenty of experience, thank you, working up the islands in the Caribbean on 2M simplex which were definitely not optical line of sight.
Now there goes your excuse to flame me.
KE5FRF
08-30-2007, 10:22 PM
Quote[/b] (k4gun @ Aug. 30 2007,15:44)]Quote[/b] ]I'm so frustrated I could eat glass because everywhere I look I see Technicians only talking about 10 meters. I hear it on 2 meter discussions and I see it on these internet discussions. "I sure wish 10 meters was open more", "Trying to build an antenna for 10 meters", "Looking for a 10 meter rig", etc. etc.
This is your source of frustration? #That techs who don't know code are lamenting the solar cycle and trying to maximize their antennas? #Just because a person doesn't take the same path as you have doesn't mean they are not allowed to complain about propgation or try to improve their use of the spectrum that they have. #
I guess this is the part that really bothers me about this. #I recognize the benefit of code. #At some point, I might learn it. #Then again, I might not. #Why should that bother you? #I'm probably doing things with and for radio that you are not. #Does that make me frustrated? #Nope. #So why do the actions and decisions of others get you so upset?
I'm sorry if you can't understand GUN. That isn't my fault.
Besides, this doesn't even apply to you. You upgraded your license. I'm talking about people who are TECHNICIANS, who (for whatever reason) haven't upgraded their license and have no plans in the near future, but who complain about propogation on 10 meters as if this is their only option.
I'm lamenting people who have are sitting on some sort of self defeating principal that is so anti-code that they shoot themselves in the foot to spite themselves.
Think about it...I just offered a free set of crappy http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif homebrew paddles free shipping paid to anyone willing to set aside their stubborness and give CW the "old college try". No takers, none except for some people who are already working CW.
Of course, I'd give them to Dale's XYL for practice purposes but I'm sure he has a straight key that she could use. I'd really much rather give them to someone who has no implement at all at their disposal.
And GUN, if YOU'D suck up your gut and set aside your pride, I'd be happy to send them to you too. A gift. Something I made MYSELF that has some value to me as my first key. Only it comes with an expectation. Not an unfair expectation at all.
Again, you do not understand the spirit of my post. And your reaction exemplifies the stubborness that so puts me off about no-code amateurs. Stubborn in spite of yourself.
KE5FRF
08-30-2007, 10:25 PM
Quote[/b] (w3wn @ Aug. 30 2007,15:21)]Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 29 2007,14:07)]Again, I have this homebrew set of paddles that will go to the first non-code amateur who wishes to try CW. I'll pay the shipping. The caveat is that you have to take the time to learn the code and work me a few times for practice.
I'd love to take you up on the offer Heath, but sorry to say, I haven't worn out my Brass Racer yet... and I still have to crack the Bencher out of the box to put on the second HF rig.
But if you really want to unload them, and no one else expresses an interest, let me know. #We'll talk.
73
Well, I'm not really looking to unload them. You probably wouldn't want them anyway, their only good as a beginner tool. The reason I offered them was to entice someone to set aside their stubborness, not let "not having a key" be an excuse. When I first got started, I was given some things to encourage me. So in that spirit I'd be more than happy to give to someone else who is willing.
WA9SVD
08-30-2007, 10:48 PM
Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Aug. 30 2007,14:33)]Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ Aug. 30 2007,16:28)]Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Aug. 30 2007,14:20)]Quote[/b] (w3wn @ Aug. 30 2007,15:23)]Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Aug. 29 2007,21:19)]...back in the " old days " there was no internet to learn from.....it was a definately different time and todays practices can not be used as a reference.
Would we be communicating via radio if we had no computers ?
Sure ly some time back in the past the bands were as dead as they are now, how did amateurs back then communicate, since they had no internet / computers ?
---- I dont think any one has mentioned a scenerio like this---- !!
Sure we would.
There's always groundwave and V/UHF. And today, we even have satellites!
If you're determined enough, you'll find a way.
Just to nitpick - it's LOS, not groundwave, at VHF/UHF.
Actually, if you had any experience or any understanding, you'd know VHF/UHF propagation is usually MORE than just optical "LOS." (Line of sight;) "SIGHT" implying human vision. The radio horizon is greater than the optical horizon.
I never said it was optical LOS...
I said it was LOS.
I have plenty of experience, thank you, working up the islands in the Caribbean on 2M simplex which were definitely not optical line of sight.
Now there goes your excuse to flame me.
Not a flame. LOS is usually understood to mean "line of sight," and sight implies the optical ability of the human eye, and the RF horizon IS different (a longer distance) than the optical horizon. Now if you were working for NASA, "LOS" might be understood as "Loss of Signal." IS that what you meant?
BTW, propagation on VHF and UHF is often to distances much greater than "LOS," whether it's optical or RF LOS.
K4GUN
08-30-2007, 11:02 PM
Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 30 2007,15:22)]I'm sorry if you can't understand GUN. That isn't my fault.
Besides, this doesn't even apply to you. You upgraded your license. I'm talking about people who are TECHNICIANS, who (for whatever reason) haven't upgraded their license and have no plans in the near future, but who complain about propogation on 10 meters as if this is their only option.
I'm lamenting people who have are sitting on some sort of self defeating principal that is so anti-code that they shoot themselves in the foot to spite themselves.
Think about it...I just offered a free set of crappy #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #homebrew paddles free shipping paid to anyone willing to set aside their stubborness and give CW the "old college try". No takers, none except for some people who are already working CW.
Of course, I'd give them to Dale's XYL for practice purposes but I'm sure he has a straight key that she could use. I'd really much rather give them to someone who has no implement at all at their disposal.
And GUN, if YOU'D suck up your gut and set aside your pride, I'd be happy to send them to you too. A gift. Something I made MYSELF that has some value to me as my first key. Only it comes with an expectation. Not an unfair expectation at all.
Again, you do not understand the spirit of my post. And your reaction exemplifies the stubborness that so puts me off about no-code amateurs. Stubborn in spite of yourself.
I know you were not talking about me and I didn't take it personally. I absolutely do not have pride keeping me from taking you up on your offer. On the contrary, I would graciously accept such an offer and thank you for it. That's just the kind of kick in the pants I probably need to buckle down and learn.
I guess my only point is that I just don't get why some people get so worked up over what others are doing. Frustrated to the point of chewing glass over a Tech who for some reason can't or wont take the next step? What's the problem? Its not like they are asking to get on 20 meters without taking the General. They are just discussing what is within their operating priviliges. Granted, it would be nice if they would apply that energy to upgrading, but that's not a concern for me.
I've read enough of your posts to know you're a good guy and a thinker. I also get the impression that you allow yourself to get pretty worked up sometimes. Maybe that's just how I'm reading it, but that's how it sounds. Relax man. Enjoy things and don't worry so much about what others are doing.
Oh yeah... the address on my license is good. I'll check my box in a few days for that keyer. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
WA7KKP
08-31-2007, 06:42 PM
Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 29 2007,06:03)]#To read and hear some Technicians talking, you'd think they had no privelages below 28 MHz. This isn't true. The FCC overnight granted a sizeable amount of spectrum to the Technician class on the 80,40,15, and 10 meter bands. The only catch is that you have to learn Morse Code. [edited]
That's the nail, and you've hit it squarely on the head.
NC Techs don't want to learn the code. Plain and simple.
And if you don't wanna, you don't playa on the HF bands with the other boys.
So they whine and complain about 10 meters.
When in fact 10 can be a fascinating band, with openings any time of the day or night, even during the sunspot minimum. We all know during the sunspot maximum that 10 meters is a great worldwide band, using simple, low power equipment, but it also makes a good local ragchew band, without having to rely on a repeater in a good location.
Gear is cheap (convert CB rigs), antennas are cheaper (cut down CB antennas), and the circuitry isn't voodoo magic like the VHF and UHF bands.
The NC Tech wants another appliance like their old CB radio, plug and play, with NO effort expended on their behalf. After all, they paid their dues by passing that #$%^ theory/regulations test, and aren't going to LEARN one iota more than necessary to buy that radio and talk to their other NC Tech friends. Most of them are on the local 2 meter repeater already . . . .
Gary WA7KKP
"I guess my only point is that I just don't get why some people get so worked up over what others are doing. Frustrated to the point of chewing glass over a Tech who for some reason can't or wont take the next step? What's the problem? Its not like they are asking to get on 20 meters without taking the General. They are just discussing what is within their operating priviliges. Granted, it would be nice if they would apply that energy to upgrading, but that's not a concern for me."
Well, I believe I can understand why Heath gets so worked up over such an issue. He has found CW to be an EXTREMELY fullfilling aspect of an avocation that he dearly loves, and just CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHY someone else would not share that enthusiasm.
That is perfectly understandable. I LOVE Classical music, and attending a great concert with extremely talented musicians and soloists is like the next thing to being in Heaven to me ! The reason you do not hear me talking about it all the time here on the ZED, is because this is not a proper venue for that subject.
But QRZ.COM IS a proper venue, and ham radio DOES need a shot in the arm of good old-fashioned enthusiasm toward some aspects of the avocation.
Do you like to work far away places? Do you like to chat with someone for hours, sometimes, with little or no interference or heckling from some LID to interrupt your pleasureful QSO ? Do you like to hone your skills by doing something well, that most others may not want to do, or even know HOW to do ?
CW offers all these opportunities to anyone who cares to expend a little effort toward mastering it. Heath is expending that effort, really enjoys it, and wishes that others would discover how exciting and rewarding the mode really is.
That isn't that hard to understand, now, is it ? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
73, Jim
k0dxc
08-31-2007, 07:04 PM
Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 29 2007,06:03)]Guys,
I'm so frustrated I could eat glass because everywhere I look I see Technicians only talking about 10 meters. I hear it on 2 meter discussions and I see it on these internet discussions. "I sure wish 10 meters was open more", "Trying to build an antenna for 10 meters", "Looking for a 10 meter rig", etc. etc.
Yet I see nobody talking about building a 40 meter antenna. Fourty meters is open each and every day and is open for DX in the evenings and early morning. It is good for local traffic any time during daylight hours and often on into the night.
I see nobody talking about 80 meters. Eighty meters is a tough band to get on because of antenna dimensions, but it is doable if you have a decent sized lot and some tall trees. The summer months can be noisy, but you will hear some strong local traffic almost any time of day and it gets better at night. Want to talk to a friend 100 or so miles away? 80 meters is the place to be in the evenings for those kind of contacts.
I see nobody talking about 15 meters. Fifteen meters is not open every day and traffic on that band is sparse, but if you tune around almost any day you will probably hear a QSO or two to somewhere. I hear South Amercian traffic now and then and am always amazed that during contests the band seems to open up. This indicates the band is open more than we realize but since propogation is flakey a lot of people aren't using it as much as we should. If more of YOU GUYS put signals on the air, the traffic would only go up!
To read and hear some Technicians talking, you'd think they had no privelages below 28 MHz. This isn't true. The FCC overnight granted a sizeable amount of spectrum to the Technician class on the 80,40,15, and 10 meter bands. The only catch is that you have to learn Morse Code. As much controversy as the rules changes caused, this was the one thing that I believe the FCC did right. They left an insintive for new amateurs to learn the code and use it.
I know that some will accuse this thread of being a code "troll". But that ISN'T what this is about. It is about encouraging you guys to use the privelages you have to the fullest. I know it may seem easier to just study for the General license and get on HF phone...but hear me out. All of that can come any time you want it. Do something for yourself that nobody will ever be able to take away. If you take the time to learn and use the code NOW, once you get that General license your world will be open to an almost unlimited number of QSOs. If the phone bands seem a bit crowded, uninteresting, or if there is a contest going on that you have no interest in, there will always be CW on the low end of the band. Learning the code now will only benefit you in the future.
Don't forget these privelages you've got! Take a month out of your life, just 30 minutes a day, to study Morse Code. In a month I gaurantee you'll be able to call CQ at 10 WPM and have people answer you. You'll actually be able to use those 80,40, and 15 meter privelages that seem so useless right now!!!!
The reason they only talk about 10 is because that's the only band they have voice on. There I said it, Most techs are babies and they just don't want to learn code, There I said that too.
K4GUN
08-31-2007, 07:27 PM
Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ Aug. 31 2007,12:01)]That isn't that hard to understand, now, is it ? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
73, Jim
I understand enthusiasm. Its infectous and Heath honestly has motivated me with his. Its the frustration part that I don't get. Look at the examples given for the sources of frustration. He's describing people who have come here in search of better ways to enjoy what they have access to. If he pointed to topics where Techs were advocating opening up the bands without passing the General or Extra exams, I could see a cause for frustration. That may be happening (I haven't seen it), but that's not the examples given.
I really get get enthusiasm. Heck, why do you think I post here all day? I just don't think its constructive to get worked up over the way others choose to pursue the hobby.
W4INF
08-31-2007, 07:40 PM
Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 29 2007,10:33)]Quote[/b] (W4INF @ Aug. 29 2007,12:23)]The next step from Tech is Gen... It took me a while, but I was unsatisfied with what Tech offered so I moved up to Gen. I tip my hat to these guys, trying to do the most with what they are allowed, at least they show a TRUE HAM SPIRIT. Now, someone comes in and dogs them over it. What a shame. No wonder.... you fill in the blanks.
I haven't seen anyone "dog" anybody (yet). Where did you see someone being "dogged"?
I recon my bad, I misunderstood the post and thought it was doging the techs agn.
My FIRST EVER (and 10 more after that) HF QSO was CW at the stroke of midnight UTC when my Tech+ privileges were effective.
To this day, I still do CW (even though I kinda sound like a smoke alarm HI HI) abt 70%, PSK about 20% and SSB abt 10%. Thats the "fun hierarchy" for HF modes IMHO. :>
I need to brk out my J38 agn, working Iambic has me a bit "spoiled".
Cheers,
Andrew
KE5FRF
08-31-2007, 11:09 PM
Quote[/b] (k4gun @ Aug. 31 2007,14:27)]Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ Aug. 31 2007,12:01)]That isn't that hard to understand, now, is it ? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
73, Jim
I understand enthusiasm. #Its infectous and Heath honestly has motivated me with his. #Its the frustration part that I don't get. #Look at the examples given for the sources of frustration. #He's describing people who have come here in search of better ways to enjoy what they have access to. #If he pointed to topics where Techs were advocating opening up the bands without passing the General or Extra exams, I could see a cause for frustration. #That may be happening (I haven't seen it), but that's not the examples given. #
I really get get enthusiasm. #Heck, why do you think I post here all day? #I just don't think its constructive to get worked up over the way others choose to pursue the hobby.
Man, I typed up