Radio Scanner Re-banding -700 mhz?

[KA5LQJ]

For some time, there has been talk about the F.C.C. moving all U.S. Police, Fire, EMS, and other sensitive government enities to a place in the 700 mhz band, trunking them and also going digital encryption.

Supposedly, the U.S. Government is footing the bill to move everyone, making it nearly impossible for any radio transmissions to be heard....All in the name of Homeland Security.

I'm wondering, if the Government and the F.C.C. will ban radio scanner manufacturers from designing, impleminting and manufacturering of any radio device capable of receiving these frequencies ? #If you're caught with a device that can do this, what would be your punishment? #Instant death?

Maybe I need to get a copy of 1984 and read it, LOL!

Decades ago, in TV's Golden Years, the '50's, there was a theater production on TV about the FUTURE. #Books were banned, if caught reading you were instantly put to death. #There were no marriages, couples were paired because of their genes and the ability to produce Super Children, strong and disease free. #Religion was a no-no and anyone professing anything other than allegience to the STATE was killed. #

I see the evidence of this coming World now. #There will be no political parties, just the STATE and STATE "religion", the One World Church.

Sad to even think this though.

Respectfully submitted,
73,
Don/KA5-LQJ

[Note: All e-mauls (aka. flames) will be cheerfully extinguished by Fire Companies 7,8, & 10 of the Shreveport Fire Department...Shreveport's Best!]

[kc2orw]

Part of the 700 mhz deal is to allocate some portions for semi-open cell-wireless internet services. Bids are to be submitted early next year for providers to get access to it. I believe Google and Yahoo are interested in getting hold of some of it.

But yes I was aware of the Public Service/Ecomm aspect of part of that deal. Some of the current used allocations have encryption and data transfer capabilities enabled already.

[k4kyv]

Quote[/b] (KA5LQJ @ Aug. 26 2007,18:10)]For some time, there has been talk about the F.C.C. moving all U.S. Police, Fire, EMS, and other sensitive government enities to a place in the 700 mhz band, trunking them and also going digital encryption.

Supposedly, the U.S. Government is footing the bill to move everyone, making it nearly impossible for any radio transmissions to be heard....All in the name of Homeland Security.

I'm wondering, if the Government and the F.C.C. will ban radio scanner manufacturers from designing, impleminting and manufacturering of any radio device capable of receiving these frequencies ? If you're caught with a device that can do this, what would be your punishment? Instant death?

Maybe I need to get a copy of 1984 and read it, LOL!

Decades ago, in TV's Golden Years, the '50's, there was a theater production on TV about the FUTURE. Books were banned, if caught reading you were instantly put to death. There were no marriages, couples were paired because of their genes and the ability to produce Super Children, strong and disease free. Religion was a no-no and anyone professing anything other than allegience to the STATE was killed.

I see the evidence of this coming World now. There will be no political parties, just the STATE and STATE "religion", the One World Church.

Sad to even think this though.
What's the point of banning receivers? The communication services are already digital. Just encrypt the communications. With to-day's technology it is pretty easy to use encryption that is all but impossible to hack.

Is this (http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/cinema/2007/02/12/070212crci_cinema_lane?currentPage=1) the direction we're headed?

[ka5piu]

Hello.

Yes, it is against the law to have a device that can intercept telephone calls, encrypted transmissions, and cofidential systems.
The first of this is the ECPA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Communications_Privacy_Act
This is the law that prohibits scanners and the like on the cellular band.
The next law is the Patriot Act, that in and of itself does not address things like scanners directly but does limit their use by the population at large.

[n2ize]

Resorting to encryption is not always nessesary, particularly in cases where it is truly...unessesary. Case and point, do the communications of the local pedagogical society really need to be encrypted ? How about the local dog catcher or the local volunteer fire department. What security gains would be acheived that would warrant the added time, expense and extra steps involved in implementing a cryptosystem for such communications ? The added overhead cost may not be justified.

Then there's the issue of economic cost and practicality. It 700 mhz the best frequency to use in rural areas ? How reliable will it be under different types of conditions, terrain, distances, etc. Mandating it may actually decrease the reliability of such systems and the desired gains. And economics ? Is every small town, large city ready to chuck their existing system for a new and expensive trunked and encrypted 700 mhz system ?

lastly, is making it harder for people to monitor police, fire, and public services nessesarilly a good thing ? Particularly in small towns and rural areas police and fire operations are often a community effort. People listening on scanners are aware of what is going down locally and can often offer assistance to public servants. case and point, not far from my parents home a robbery occured. The crooks took off and hid in a nearby park. Fortunately an alert scanner listener who was monitoring looked out his window, saw them going into the park and notified the cops as to where they (the bad guys) were. They were apprehended. Today that same police department is encrypted and most likely the crooks would have gotten away as the scanner listening citizen would not have had a clue. And what about volunteer fire ? Don't they depend on members being able to monitor activity ?

Mandating 700 mhz trunked and encrypted systems as universal may cause more harm than good.

[K2WH]

Bring it on. This would be a boon to the amateur radio community when the huge influx of unusable radios and associated equipment hit Ebay.

K2WH

BTW, Scanners should be banned anyway. Why would anyone not in the government want to listen in on others phone calls ? These same people blast the US Government for listening to phone calls but your average volunteer fireman does the same thing.

[ka5piu]

Quote[/b] (K2WH @ Aug. 26 2007,12:04)]Bring it on. #This would be a boon to the amateur radio community when the huge influx of unusable radios and associated equipment hit Ebay.

K2WH

BTW, Scanners should be banned anyway. #Why would anyone not in the government want to listen in on others phone calls ? #These same people blast the US Government for listening to phone calls but your average volunteer fireman does the same thing.
Hello.

This is rebanding, moving services that are now on 800 MHz.
There is already tons of surplus 800 MHz equipment, left over from the narrow banding efforts, and next the digital efforts, now rebanding.
How much for an analog 800 MHz Spectra, or perhaps a used STX?
The old privacy plus stuff is usually giveaway at a 2-way shop.
And, what else is at 800 MHz? cellular telephones!
Really see the hams going for it on that stuff.
The diplexer along with the rest of the RF section is purpose built for cellular, no mods are done as the RF amplifiers are built with the filtering as part of the actual chip.
So, what can the Radio Amateur expect from rebanding?
Not a whole lot.

[kg4kww]

Don't worry Bearcat will come out with a scanner to receive the 700 mhz transmissions. If a kid can hack an IPHONE, Bearcat can make a scanner.

[NL7W]

Quote[/b] (KA5LQJ @ Aug. 26 2007,10:10)]For some time, there has been talk about the F.C.C. moving all U.S. Police, Fire, EMS, and other sensitive government enities to a place in the 700 mhz band, trunking them and also going digital encryption.

Supposedly, the U.S. Government is footing the bill to move everyone, making it nearly impossible for any radio transmissions to be heard....All in the name of Homeland Security.

I'm wondering, if the Government and the F.C.C. will ban radio scanner manufacturers from designing, impleminting and manufacturering of any radio device capable of receiving these frequencies ? If you're caught with a device that can do this, what would be your punishment? Instant death?

Maybe I need to get a copy of 1984 and read it, LOL!

Decades ago, in TV's Golden Years, the '50's, there was a theater production on TV about the FUTURE. Books were banned, if caught reading you were instantly put to death. There were no marriages, couples were paired because of their genes and the ability to produce Super Children, strong and disease free. Religion was a no-no and anyone professing anything other than allegience to the STATE was killed.

I see the evidence of this coming World now. There will be no political parties, just the STATE and STATE "religion", the One World Church.

Sad to even think this though.

Respectfully submitted,
73,
Don/KA5-LQJ

[Note: All e-mauls (aka. flames) will be cheerfully extinguished by Fire Companies 7,8, & 10 of the Shreveport Fire Department...Shreveport's Best!]
It won't matter anyway...

Most metro and suburban 700 MHz public safety band users are purchasing complete trunked radio systems, to include systems' subscriber radios. Routinely, these systems include an encryption package that precludes monitoring by outside, P25 capable receivers. The federal, or more elaborate and usually grant funded state and local public safety departments are buying Over-The-Air-Rekeying (OTAR) encryption systems that periodically downward direct and re-key all system subscribers' encryption codes via their RF network.

Within medium to large metropolitan areas, I can safely say that, "As time passes and systems are built, gone will be the days where the average citizen can monitor public safety and related municipal radio systems traffic."

Therefore, the capability of monitoring 700 MHz with your common scanner is moot. This comes from a Motorola contracted engineer (me) working on the build-out of P25 public safety systems in the Northwest.

73.

[ka5piu]

Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Aug. 26 2007,15:20)]Don't worry Bearcat will come out with a scanner to receive the 700 mhz transmissions. If a kid can hack an IPHONE, Bearcat can make a scanner.
Hello.

Yes and no.
The issue is one of will the US government allow bearcat to build such a scanner and bring it into the US.
The nifty radios, like the VX-7R VX-3R and the FTM-10R, do not do digital.
This was done at the request of the US government.
Yaesu went as far as changing the CPU in the US models.
This is in addition to the cellular block.

[N3ATS]

Quote[/b] (KA5LQJ @ Aug. 26 2007,13:10)]For some time, there has been talk about the F.C.C. moving all U.S. Police, Fire, EMS, and other sensitive government enities to a place in the 700 mhz band, trunking them and also going digital encryption.

Supposedly, the U.S. Government is footing the bill to move everyone, making it nearly impossible for any radio transmissions to be heard....All in the name of Homeland Security.

I'm wondering, if the Government and the F.C.C. will ban radio scanner manufacturers from designing, impleminting and manufacturering of any radio device capable of receiving these frequencies ? If you're caught with a device that can do this, what would be your punishment? Instant death?

Maybe I need to get a copy of 1984 and read it, LOL!

Decades ago, in TV's Golden Years, the '50's, there was a theater production on TV about the FUTURE. Books were banned, if caught reading you were instantly put to death. There were no marriages, couples were paired because of their genes and the ability to produce Super Children, strong and disease free. Religion was a no-no and anyone professing anything other than allegience to the STATE was killed.

I see the evidence of this coming World now. There will be no political parties, just the STATE and STATE "religion", the One World Church.

Sad to even think this though.

Respectfully submitted,
73,
Don/KA5-LQJ

[Note: All e-mauls (aka. flames) will be cheerfully extinguished by Fire Companies 7,8, & 10 of the Shreveport Fire Department...Shreveport's Best!]
Not even close.

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (K2WH @ Aug. 26 2007,14:04)]Bring it on. #This would be a boon to the amateur radio community when the huge influx of unusable radios and associated equipment hit Ebay.

K2WH

BTW, Scanners should be banned anyway. #Why would anyone not in the government want to listen in on others phone calls ? #These same people blast the US Government for listening to phone calls but your average volunteer fireman does the same thing.
Why would anyone think that a stupid law will prevent people from listening?

If you want to prevent people from listening, there's encryption.

[KC9JIQ]

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Aug. 26 2007,16:00)]Quote[/b] (K2WH @ Aug. 26 2007,14:04)]Bring it on. #This would be a boon to the amateur radio community when the huge influx of unusable radios and associated equipment hit Ebay.

K2WH

BTW, Scanners should be banned anyway. #Why would anyone not in the government want to listen in on others phone calls ? #These same people blast the US Government for listening to phone calls but your average volunteer fireman does the same thing.
Why would anyone think that a stupid law will prevent people from listening?

If you want to prevent people from listening, there's encryption.
Why do they need encryption in the first place?

What do the Police have to hide? #How do you fight corruption? #So you take the Citizens ears out and make it more convenient for Police to cover up their crimes against the citizenry! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Contary to popular belief, cops are corrupt, just look at speeding tickets, he gives you a ticket for 65 when you were going 80mph, how can you trust liars, making it more convenient for them to cover up their crimes against the law is outragous!

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Aug. 26 2007,15:20)]Don't worry Bearcat will come out with a scanner to receive the 700 mhz transmissions. If a kid can hack an IPHONE, Bearcat can make a scanner.
Not nessesarilly. Breaking an encryption scheme is most often a far more intractable problem than reverse engineering an iPhone. This is not to say any given cryptographic protocol is perfect indeed it is more correct to assume that they are flawed. But in cryptography "flawed" does not mean innefective.

Regardless, I highly doubt that you'll see anything on the market from Bearcat to decrypt the 700mhz transmissions nor will you find them effectivly broken anytime soon. If you feel otherwise I challenge you to try. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Tu Da Lu

[KI4PJW]

Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Aug. 25 2007,22:19)]Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Aug. 26 2007,15:20)]Don't worry Bearcat will come out with a scanner to receive the 700 mhz transmissions. If a kid can hack an IPHONE, Bearcat can make a scanner.
Not nessesarilly. Breaking an encryption scheme is most often a far more intractable problem than reverse engineering an iPhone. This is not to say any given cryptographic protocol is perfect indeed it is more correct to assume that they are flawed. But in cryptography "flawed" does not mean innefective.

Regardless, I highly doubt that you'll see anything on the market from Bearcat to decrypt the 700mhz transmissions nor will you find them effectivly broken anytime soon. If you feel otherwise I challenge you to try. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Tu Da Lu
Hello All,

I must agree with IZE on the technical issue of hacking the cryptography. It will indeed be more than most can handle without a specific knowlege of how the system functions.
As well, if the original post is correct ( I feel it is), to be caught listening in on the DHS control grid will be a sure fire way to end up being "disappeared" and held as an unlawful enemy" of some type.

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (KC9JIQ @ Aug. 26 2007,16:05)]
Quote[/b] ]
Why do they need encryption in the first place?


Privacy. The need to keep the bad guys from eavesdropping on police strategies. A swat team is converging on a terrorist headquarters gives the swat team an edge if the bad guys are not able to monitor the swat teams radios and hear what is going on. It gives the cops an edge although it does leave the law abiding public out of the loop. But then again, there is no law requiring the cops radio messages to be available to the public.

Quote[/b] ]
What do the Police have to hide? #How do you fight corruption? #So you take the Citizens ears out and make it more convenient for Police to cover up their crimes against the citizenry! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif


Ah, now you tough on a sensitive and controversial area. Yes indeed, the cops are not always on the level. However think of it this way. The New York City cops have corruption. Not every cop in NYC is saintly, honest and trustworthy. Indeed some cops take bribes, deal drugs, protect criminals, beat up people, etc. Wherever you have humans you have human nature for better or worst and you have corruption.
Now, consider... at present the NYC police are unencrypted. Anyone with a basic vhf/uhf scanner can listen to the NYPD. Yet, think about it. How much of the corruption is put out over the radio ? If you listen to the NYPD radio you'd think all cops are angels. If some cop is dealing dope, taking bribes from drug dealers in return for police protection, selling guns, strong arming innocent civilians, etc... they certainly are not putting that info over the air for the cop dispatchers, other cops and agencies, and the general public to hear. So as it stands today's unencrypted systems reveal virtually nothing with regards to police misbehavior. It is unlikely encrypted transmissions are going to make it any worst. The same rouge cops that may exist today are not going to be putting their behavior over the air, be it in cleartext or encrypted.

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (KI4PJW @ Aug. 26 2007,16:25)]Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Aug. 25 2007,22:19)]Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Aug. 26 2007,15:20)]Don't worry Bearcat will come out with a scanner to receive the 700 mhz transmissions. If a kid can hack an IPHONE, Bearcat can make a scanner.
Not nessesarilly. Breaking an encryption scheme is most often a far more intractable problem than reverse engineering an iPhone. This is not to say any given cryptographic protocol is perfect indeed it is more correct to assume that they are flawed. But in cryptography "flawed" does not mean innefective.

Regardless, I highly doubt that you'll see anything on the market from Bearcat to decrypt the 700mhz transmissions nor will you find them effectivly broken anytime soon. If you feel otherwise I challenge you to try. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Tu Da Lu
Hello All,

I must agree with IZE on the technical issue of hacking the cryptography. It will indeed be more than most can handle without a specific knowlege of how the system functions.
As well, if the original post is correct ( I feel it is), to be caught listening in on the DHS control grid will be a sure fire way to end up being "disappeared" and held as an unlawful enemy" of some type.
Even with knowledge of how an encryption algorithm works (which is public info in many cases) it is still extremely difficult to break an encrypted message. Thats because encryption algorithms translate to intractable mathematical problems. The "encryption function" is intractable. In simple terms given x, f(x) is extremely easy to compute. But, given just f(x) , x is extremely hard to compute (without specific info, i.e. keys).

[kc2orw]

Quote[/b] (KC9JIQ @ Aug. 26 2007,16:05)]Why do they need encryption in the first place?

What do the Police have to hide? How do you fight corruption?
Why? well in certain parts of the country the criminals are actually quite sophisticated and so too the stalkers who follow emergency services around from one scene to another. Some are just ghouls who like to see accidents and sometimes it is crimals interested in new potential targets so they listen...
These days locally the police are always talking in non published code to keep ghouls and stalkers away. In the internet age do you really need to ask about peoples privacy being invaded. Have you noticed in TV that involves the public that license plates are always blurred and now announcers on TV always use 555-1212 and not anything that resembles a real number. Welcome to the information age do you know about this number 8675 309 ee ine ee ine un. That number and a few others are only useful for porn lines now.
Yeah there are reason and yes it could be used to cover up corruption but the radio stalker does exist and they like to follow emergency services radio for reasons most of us don't care for.

[KI4PJW]

Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Aug. 25 2007,22:32)]
Quote[/b] ]
Why do they need encryption in the first place?


Privacy. The need to keep the bad guys from eavesdropping on police strategies. A swat team is converging on a terrorist headquarters gives the swat team an edge if the bad guys are not able to monitor the swat teams radios and hear what is going on. It gives the cops an edge although it does leave the law abiding public out of the loop. But then again, there is no law requiring the cops radio messages to be available to the public.

Quote[/b] ]
What do the Police have to hide? #How do you fight corruption? #So you take the Citizens ears out and make it more convenient for Police to cover up their crimes against the citizenry! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif


Ah, now you tough on a sensitive and controversial area. Yes indeed, the cops are not always on the level. However think of it this way. The New York City cops have corruption. Not every cop in NYC is saintly, honest and trustworthy. Indeed some cops take bribes, deal drugs, #protect criminals, beat up people, etc. Wherever you have humans you have human nature for better or worst and you have corruption.
Now, consider... at present the NYC police are unencrypted. Anyone with a basic vhf/uhf scanner can listen to the NYPD. Yet, think about it. How much of the corruption is put out over the radio ? If you listen to the NYPD radio you'd think #all cops are angels. If some cop is dealing dope, taking bribes from drug dealers in return for police protection, selling guns, strong arming innocent civilians, etc... they certainly are not putting that info over the air for the cop dispatchers, other cops and agencies, and the general public to hear. #So as it stands today's unencrypted systems reveal virtually nothing with regards to police misbehavior. It is unlikely encrypted transmissions are going to make it any worst. The same rouge cops that may exist today are not going to be putting their behavior over the air, be it in cleartext or encrypted.
IZE,

Hey Brother, as I recall, the point of the "War on Terror" was to protect our Free Society, not end it.
The Secret Police is not a hallmark of such societies. As for strategy, that is not communicated over the radio anyway. Strategy sessions take place in a Squad Room or some such secure place.
This is shaping up to be an operation of denial against We the People. Especially, when viewed in the light of all the draconian measures the varying administrations have put into place over the past 30 years or so in the name of "crisis" and "war" on something or other. We have been militarized and the DHS has temporary authority. Now all that power has been channelled into the "Unitary Executive" as soon as he/she declares the need for another National Emergency, under NSPD 51 and HSPD 20.
It has been a long climb, but the enemies of freedom have suceeded in bringing us to the razors edge of despotic rule & tyranny unlike any in world history.

[KC9JIQ]

Quote[/b] ]In the internet age do you really need to ask about peoples privacy being invaded.
Anonymous proxies solve this problem, but we are NOT public officials serving the Public.


Quote[/b] ]Have you noticed in TV that involves the public that license plates are always blurred and now announcers on TV always use 555-1212 and not anything that resembles a real number.

Negative, I do not have a television, way too much "programing" and distortion.

The Police are responsible to the American People, again the only comms that should perhaps maybe be covered up is local tactical comms during a drug bust or a search/raid.

and I won't stop at radio, you know all these cameras officers have in their cars, that too should be public.

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (KC9JIQ @ Aug. 26 2007,16:59)]Quote[/b] ]In the internet age do you really need to ask about peoples privacy being invaded.
Anonymous proxies solve this problem, but we are NOT public officials serving the Public.


Quote[/b] ]Have you noticed in TV that involves the public that license plates are always blurred and now announcers on TV always use 555-1212 #and not anything that resembles a real number.

Negative, I do not have a television, way too much "programing" and distortion.

The Police are responsible to the American People, again the only comms that should perhaps maybe be covered up is local tactical comms during a drug bust or a search/raid.

and I won't stop at radio, you know all these cameras officers have in their cars, that too should be public.
Quote[/b] ]

The Police are responsible to the American People, again the only comms that should perhaps maybe be covered up is local tactical comms during a drug bust or a search/raid.


I'll take it a step further. Let's end drug prohibition and they'll be even less need for encrypted communications.

[N3ATS]

It's all about the scanner whackers being PO'd that they can't listen anymore. That's why people get all up in arms.

If you needed to listen, the agency you work for would provide a radio for you to Rx/Tx with.

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (KC9JIQ @ Aug. 26 2007,18:05)]Why do they need encryption in the first place?

What do the Police have to hide? #How do you fight corruption? #So you take the Citizens ears out and make it more convenient for Police to cover up their crimes against the citizenry! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Contary to popular belief, cops are corrupt, just look at speeding tickets, he gives you a ticket for 65 when you were going 80mph, how can you trust liars, making it more convenient for them to cover up their crimes against the law is outragous!
I was not referring to the police, I was referring to telephones (as was K2WH).

But now that you mention it, yes, I do support limited use of encryption by the police. How effective is crime fighting if everything is out in the clear? The element of surprise is a very effective tool.

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ Aug. 26 2007,18:48)]Quote[/b] (KC9JIQ @ Aug. 26 2007,16:05)]Why do they need encryption in the first place?

What do the Police have to hide? #How do you fight corruption?
Why? well in certain parts of the country the criminals are actually quite sophisticated and so too the stalkers who follow emergency services around from one scene to another. Some are just ghouls who like to see accidents and sometimes it is crimals interested in new potential targets so they listen...
These days locally the police are always talking in non published code to keep ghouls and stalkers away. In the internet age do you really need to ask about peoples privacy being invaded. Have you noticed in TV that involves the public that license plates are always blurred and now announcers on TV always use 555-1212 #and not anything that resembles a real number. Welcome to the information age do you know about this number 8675 309 ee ine ee ine un. That number and a few others are only useful for porn lines now.
Yeah there are reason and yes it could be used to cover up corruption but the radio stalker does exist and they like to follow emergency services radio for reasons most of us don't care for.
The other reason is that the press are avid scanner users, and often they are a hindrance to public safety agencies.

So keeping the press uninformed as long as possible helps keep them out of the way.

[kc2orw]

The press well I figured I covered that under ghouls and stalkers http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[KA5LQJ]

Gentlemen,

I could care less about listening to cell 'phone calls of any kind. #I have a scanner that is capable of legally receiving them, but I don't even bother. #It does receive 29-50 mcs; 50-54 mcs; 108-136 mcs (am); 144-174 mcs; 420-512 mcs; 800-900 mcs (non-trunked) and 900-1.2ghz.

Most of my scanner monitoring consist of listening to ham repeaters and fire & ems units. #I don't go to fireground scenes, but do listen. #If a ham repeater comes up and there is someone I need to talk with, I'll turn my Icom 706MkII-G over to that frequency and wait until that conversation has ended to call my friend. #Most of the time, the Icom is on HF.

Shreveport & surrounding Caddo Parish is on a subscriber 800 mhz trunked system, the Caddo 911 Communications District #1, from which each enity leases radios and air time. #They have different talk groups for each agency, so it makes it easy to block Animal Control, Water & Sewerage, Garbage pick-up, and other non-interesting calls. #I do monitor the local, S'port Fire Dept, it's EMS units, and Caddo Fire District 2 & 9, as I have family in those areas. #I also monitor the Caddo Parish Sheriff's North channel, again, as I have relatives that live in that area. #Should something happen, closeby to them, I'd like to be able to warn them of impending danger, by cell 'phone. #Bad weather is a primary example and there is the KCS railyards nearby, so a chemical spill could happen.

Should the F.C.C. and Homeland Security ban listening to the warnings put out by the various agencies, there could be trouble. #Just the other day, there was an armed robbery of a fast-food resturaunt within two blocks of me. #The robbers ran my direction, down an alleyway and hid in the grownover next door yard. #I was able to hear the call and called the police dispatcher and let her know where the perps was hiding. #In an unusual display of showmanship (the cops NEVER come when you call them for anything), 11 patrol cars showed up in the neighborhood, 2 corporals, a sargent and louie and seven other officers from other districts. #Our three district cops were working a one car wreck, no injuries. #A footchase took place and all the officers were out of breath from chasin' these guys, LOL! #(IF you eyes are glazed you've eaten too many doughnuts).

Now, had I not heard the call, the robbers would have gotten away to rob again and possibly kill someone.

Bad cops don't put out their criminal activity over-the-air (drug dealing, pimping, shaking down good folks, even beating up folks[off-duty, under the Texas Street bridge, as "security"]) they use their city issued cell 'phones. # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Makes you want to move so far back in the mountains, they have to pipe 'sunshine' to you and you don't get the Grand Ole Opry until Wednesday, #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif # If Wyoming wasn't so dang cold in the Winter with all that snow, I'd move to some real small county, way back in the mountains, hehehe.

Respectfully submitted,
73,
Don/KA5-LQJ

Southern BORN, Southern BRED, & when I die, I'll be Southern DEAD

[AB8RU]

Last thing I heard was that 700 Mhz was some sort of a Guard Band and maybe after FEB 2009 they may let us know whats up, as to the DIgital Spread Spectrum, anyone not knowing this unless you took the Extra Exam in 2003 DSS was discussed grab a Book on the Subject what do you think D-Star is ?

[NL7W]

Quote[/b] (KA5LQJ @ Aug. 26 2007,18:12)]Gentlemen,

I could care less about listening to cell 'phone calls of any kind. I have a scanner that is capable of legally receiving them, but I don't even bother. It does receive 29-50 mcs; 50-54 mcs; 108-136 mcs (am); 144-174 mcs; 420-512 mcs; 800-900 mcs (non-trunked) and 900-1.2ghz.

Most of my scanner monitoring consist of listening to ham repeaters and fire & ems units. I don't go to fireground scenes, but do listen. If a ham repeater comes up and there is someone I need to talk with, I'll turn my Icom 706MkII-G over to that frequency and wait until that conversation has ended to call my friend. Most of the time, the Icom is on HF.

Shreveport & surrounding Caddo Parish is on a subscriber 800 mhz trunked system, the Caddo 911 Communications District #1, from which each enity leases radios and air time. They have different talk groups for each agency, so it makes it easy to block Animal Control, Water & Sewerage, Garbage pick-up, and other non-interesting calls. I do monitor the local, S'port Fire Dept, it's EMS units, and Caddo Fire District 2 & 9, as I have family in those areas. I also monitor the Caddo Parish Sheriff's North channel, again, as I have relatives that live in that area. Should something happen, closeby to them, I'd like to be able to warn them of impending danger, by cell 'phone. Bad weather is a primary example and there is the KCS railyards nearby, so a chemical spill could happen.

Should the F.C.C. and Homeland Security ban listening to the warnings put out by the various agencies, there could be trouble. Just the other day, there was an armed robbery of a fast-food resturaunt within two blocks of me. The robbers ran my direction, down an alleyway and hid in the grownover next door yard. I was able to hear the call and called the police dispatcher and let her know where the perps was hiding. In an unusual display of showmanship (the cops NEVER come when you call them for anything), 11 patrol cars showed up in the neighborhood, 2 corporals, a sargent and louie and seven other officers from other districts. Our three district cops were working a one car wreck, no injuries. A footchase took place and all the officers were out of breath from chasin' these guys, LOL! (IF you eyes are glazed you've eaten too many doughnuts).

Now, had I not heard the call, the robbers would have gotten away to rob again and possibly kill someone.

Bad cops don't put out their criminal activity over-the-air (drug dealing, pimping, shaking down good folks, even beating up folks[off-duty, under the Texas Street bridge, as "security"]) they use their city issued cell 'phones. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Makes you want to move so far back in the mountains, they have to pipe 'sunshine' to you and you don't get the Grand Ole Opry until Wednesday, http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif If Wyoming wasn't so dang cold in the Winter with all that snow, I'd move to some real small county, way back in the mountains, hehehe.

Respectfully submitted,
73,
Don/KA5-LQJ

Southern BORN, Southern BRED, & when I die, I'll be Southern DEAD
I like my semi-rural Alaskan QTH... it's only cold here in the winter. Winter only lasts 7 months out of the year...

[KL1ZB]

Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Aug. 25 2007,19:52)]It's all about the scanner whackers being PO'd that they can't listen anymore. #That's why people get all up in arms.

If you needed to listen, the agency you work for would provide a radio for you to Rx/Tx with.
Yea what ever, its my tax dollars going into all this, if I want to listen I should be able to listen. I think its BS that the Government wants to listen and spy on everything we do but when we want to know whats going on in our own city they want to turn us into criminals.

I'm not to worried let them spend Billons and as soon as everything is up and running someone will come up with a crack to decode it and all that money will have been a waste.

[NL7W]

Quote[/b] (KL1ZB @ Aug. 26 2007,23:21)]Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Aug. 25 2007,19:52)]It's all about the scanner whackers being PO'd that they can't listen anymore. That's why people get all up in arms.

If you needed to listen, the agency you work for would provide a radio for you to Rx/Tx with.
Yea what ever, its my tax dollars going into all this, if I want to listen I should be able to listen. I think its BS that the Government wants to listen and spy on everything we do but when we want to know whats going on in our own city they want to turn us into criminals.

I'm not to worried let them spend Billons and as soon as everything is up and running someone will come up with a crack to decode it and all that money will have been a waste.
Hello neighbor..

If you can find someone or some organization that can crack 192-bit or 256-bit AES encrypted radio networks that rotate their random generated codes on a bi-weekly or monthly basis -- more power to you. It would be easier to pay someone off (bribe) to give away the key.

Can't be done with a PC or even a modest supercomputer -- except for, perhaps, at the NSA.

Toodles.

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (KL1ZB @ Aug. 27 2007,00:21)]Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Aug. 25 2007,19:52)]It's all about the scanner whackers being PO'd that they can't listen anymore. #That's why people get all up in arms.

If you needed to listen, the agency you work for would provide a radio for you to Rx/Tx with.
Yea what ever, its my tax dollars going into all this, if I want to listen I should be able to listen. I think its BS that the Government wants to listen and spy on everything we do but when we want to know whats going on in our own city they want to turn us into criminals.

I'm not to worried let them spend Billons and as soon as everything is up and running someone will come up with a crack to decode it and all that money will have been a waste.
Quote[/b] ]
I'm not to worried let them spend Billons and as soon as everything is up and running someone will come up with a crack to decode it and all that money will have been a waste.


Very very very unlikely. That is the reason why encryption works. Even if you understand the algorithm used to perform the task of encryption the task of converting the ciphertext to cleartext without the proper keys amounts to what is called an intractable mathematical function. Sometimes called a one way function is is easy to go from x -> f(x) (cleartext to ciphertext) but extremely and monumentally hard to work the function the other way f(x) -> x, (ciphertext to cleartext). This intractability holds true even if you are the inventor of the encryption scheme.

Consider a "brute force" attack against a 192 bit key. For each bit there are 2 possible values. From simple combinatorics this translates to 2^192 = 6.2 x 10^57 possible keys. For a 256 bit key you have 2^256 = 1.15 x 10^77 possible keys. It is possible you might brute force and find the right key in the first try but the probability of that happening is extremely low. believe me, you're not gonna brute force it on a PC sitting in some hacker loft. Nor are you gonna brute force it with a supercomputer. As far as anyones concerned it's a monumental task even for the most well funded and most dedicated agencies.

You'd have better luck beating someone over the head and stealing the keys. It is possible that a flaw in the algorithm could be discovered and exploited. But that is unlikely when using encryption methods that have been tested over the long haul. Of course we may someday have computers so powerful that they may make such brute force attacks against today's encryption methods trivial. But until that day good luck.



Quote[/b] ]
Yea what ever, its my tax dollars going into all this, if I want to listen I should be able to listen. I think its BS that the Government wants to listen and spy on everything we do but when we want to know whats going on in our own city they want to turn us into criminals.


I understand what you're saying and in many ways I agree. However there is no law stating that police cannot encrypt their messages nor a law stating that such messages must be publicly decipherable. If you want to make sure that communications remain in plaintext then it's up to you to get a law passed that prohibits encryption of local communications.

In all liklihood the behavior of rogue cops won't go out over the air be it encrypted or not.

[kb5wbh]

Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Aug. 26 2007,21:20)]Don't worry Bearcat will come out with a scanner to receive the 700 mhz transmissions. If a kid can hack an IPHONE, Bearcat can make a scanner.
Maybe I am wrong on this? I was told that the Radio Shack and Uniden hand held scanners will receive 700mhz, the Radio Shack will not trunk there but the Uniden will. Some of the AWIN (http://www.awin.arkansas.gov/#) repeater towers are 700mhz and those scanners will receive it. AWIN is the Statewide APCO25 digital system that is being used by Public Service agencies in Arkansas.
Maybe someone who has one can confirm this? I don't own one, can't see me buying a scanner receiver that costs around $500.
73
mike

[AC0H]

Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Aug. 26 2007,18:32)]Quote[/b] (KC9JIQ @ Aug. 26 2007,16:05)]
Quote[/b] ]
Why do they need encryption in the first place?


Privacy. The need to keep the bad guys from eavesdropping on police strategies. A swat team is converging on a terrorist headquarters gives the swat team an edge if the bad guys are not able to monitor the swat teams radios and hear what is going on. It gives the cops an edge although it does leave the law abiding public out of the loop. But then again, there is no law requiring the cops radio messages to be available to the public.

Quote[/b] ]
What do the Police have to hide? How do you fight corruption? So you take the Citizens ears out and make it more convenient for Police to cover up their crimes against the citizenry! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif


Ah, now you tough on a sensitive and controversial area. Yes indeed, the cops are not always on the level. However think of it this way. The New York City cops have corruption. Not every cop in NYC is saintly, honest and trustworthy. Indeed some cops take bribes, deal drugs, protect criminals, beat up people, etc. Wherever you have humans you have human nature for better or worst and you have corruption.
Now, consider... at present the NYC police are unencrypted. Anyone with a basic vhf/uhf scanner can listen to the NYPD. Yet, think about it. How much of the corruption is put out over the radio ? If you listen to the NYPD radio you'd think all cops are angels. If some cop is dealing dope, taking bribes from drug dealers in return for police protection, selling guns, strong arming innocent civilians, etc... they certainly are not putting that info over the air for the cop dispatchers, other cops and agencies, and the general public to hear. So as it stands today's unencrypted systems reveal virtually nothing with regards to police misbehavior. It is unlikely encrypted transmissions are going to make it any worst. The same rouge cops that may exist today are not going to be putting their behavior over the air, be it in cleartext or encrypted.
I can't believe I'm typing this but......I agree with IZE.

For the conspiracy theorists to be right they have to assume that every single individual in the government is corrupt. Not so. So what if the cops use encryption? All it does is throw a monkey wrench into criminal and terrorists plans which may rely on being able to monitor certain frequencies.

It would also have a nice effect on TV newsrooms across the country. The days of the newscrew getting to the scene of an accident or crime with the cops or before the cops would be over. They may actually have to go back to doing.....................Journalism.

[KL1ZB]

Quote[/b] (NL7W @ Aug. 26 2007,03:07)]Quote[/b] (KL1ZB @ Aug. 26 2007,23:21)]Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Aug. 25 2007,19:52)]It's all about the scanner whackers being PO'd that they can't listen anymore. That's why people get all up in arms.

If you needed to listen, the agency you work for would provide a radio for you to Rx/Tx with.
Yea what ever, its my tax dollars going into all this, if I want to listen I should be able to listen. I think its BS that the Government wants to listen and spy on everything we do but when we want to know whats going on in our own city they want to turn us into criminals.

I'm not to worried let them spend Billons and as soon as everything is up and running someone will come up with a crack to decode it and all that money will have been a waste.
Hello neighbor..

If you can find someone or some organization that can crack 192-bit or 256-bit AES encrypted radio networks that rotate their random generated codes on a bi-weekly or monthly basis -- more power to you. It would be easier to pay someone off (bribe) to give away the key.

Can't be done with a PC or even a modest supercomputer -- except for, perhaps, at the NSA.

Toodles.
Heh, did you forget about WEP, WPA, DeCSS, AACS, all 100% secure types of encryptions, Until someone found a flaw.

EDIT: I never said anything about cracking or brute forcing the key. I said "come up with a crack to decode it" This could mean anything from using a weak repeater to gain access to some sort of man in the middle attack.

[KB1KIX]

Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Aug. 26 2007,14:54)]lastly, is making it harder for people to monitor police, fire, and public services nessesarilly a good thing ?
No, it isn't a good thing.

If anyone wants to say it is, all I have to ask is back it up.

How may criminal acts have been prosecuted over the past year(or years) and then back that up with the amount of cases where the person was caught with a scanner.

We were supposed to be able to have at least some observable oversight here!

Jonathan

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (KL1ZB @ Aug. 27 2007,07:27)]Quote[/b] (NL7W @ Aug. 26 2007,03:07)]Quote[/b] (KL1ZB @ Aug. 26 2007,23:21)]Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Aug. 25 2007,19:52)]It's all about the scanner whackers being PO'd that they can't listen anymore. #That's why people get all up in arms.

If you needed to listen, the agency you work for would provide a radio for you to Rx/Tx with.
Yea what ever, its my tax dollars going into all this, if I want to listen I should be able to listen. I think its BS that the Government wants to listen and spy on everything we do but when we want to know whats going on in our own city they want to turn us into criminals.

I'm not to worried let them spend Billons and as soon as everything is up and running someone will come up with a crack to decode it and all that money will have been a waste.
Hello neighbor..

If you can find someone or some organization that can crack 192-bit or 256-bit AES encrypted radio networks that rotate their random generated codes on a bi-weekly or monthly basis -- more power to you. #It would be easier to pay someone off (bribe) to give away the key.

Can't be done with a PC or even a modest supercomputer -- except for, perhaps, at the NSA.

Toodles.
Heh, did you forget about WEP, WPA, DeCSS, AACS, all 100% secure types of encryptions, Until someone found a flaw.

EDIT: I never said anything about cracking or brute forcing the key. I said "come up with a crack to decode it" This could mean anything from using a weak repeater to gain access to some sort of man in the middle attack.
Quote[/b] ]
Heh, did you forget about WEP, WPA, DeCSS, AACS, all 100% secure types of encryptions, Until someone found a flaw.


deCSS was #weak. WEP has had known vulnerabilities.
No reputable person in the field would ever claim any encryption algorithm or security protocol to be 100% unbreakable.

Quote[/b] ]

EDIT: I never said anything about cracking or brute forcing the key. I said "come up with a crack to decode it" This could mean anything from using a weak repeater to gain access to some sort of man in the middle attack.


AES with large keys (128 bit or higher) has been attacked by experts with large budgets and resources for #to find an exploitable flaw. Some claim to have found vulnerability yet feel that it is not practically exploitable in as far as aquiring anything useful. In any event it is doubtful that anyone anytime soon is going to crack AES anytime soon, especially with todays inadequate computing power. Like any encryption algorithm or security protocol AES is repeatedly researched and evaluated.

Of course if you can come up with a readilly exploitable attack/crack for AES you would have done a service in as far as making things more secure. Part of the process of building secure protocols is the methodology of attack->fix->attack->fix...etc

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (KB1KIX @ Aug. 27 2007,10:05)]Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Aug. 26 2007,14:54)]lastly, is making it harder for people to monitor police, fire, and public services nessesarilly a good thing ?
No, it isn't a good thing.

If anyone wants to say it is, all I have to ask is back it up.

How may criminal acts have been prosecuted over the past year(or years) and then back that up with the amount of cases where the person was caught with a scanner.

We were supposed to be able to have at least some observable oversight here!

Jonathan
I was thinking of it more from a feasibility/cost perspective. Not every small town police/fire team will nessesarilly benefit from the conversion of existing systems of communication in such a way as to justify costs.

Aside from that I am all for the idea of encrypted communications systems. I think it is an enevitabliity and it's an exciting combination of technologies and ideas to bring modern day communications to state of the art levels.

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (NL7W @ Aug. 26 2007,23:00)]Quote[/b] (KA5LQJ @ Aug. 26 2007,18:12)]Gentlemen,

I could care less about listening to cell 'phone calls of any kind. #I have a scanner that is capable of legally receiving them, but I don't even bother. #It does receive 29-50 mcs; 50-54 mcs; 108-136 mcs (am); 144-174 mcs; 420-512 mcs; 800-900 mcs (non-trunked) and 900-1.2ghz.

Most of my scanner monitoring consist of listening to ham repeaters and fire & ems units. #I don't go to fireground scenes, but do listen. #If a ham repeater comes up and there is someone I need to talk with, I'll turn my Icom 706MkII-G over to that frequency and wait until that conversation has ended to call my friend. #Most of the time, the Icom is on HF.

Shreveport & surrounding Caddo Parish is on a subscriber 800 mhz trunked system, the Caddo 911 Communications District #1, from which each enity leases radios and air time. #They have different talk groups for each agency, so it makes it easy to block Animal Control, Water & Sewerage, Garbage pick-up, and other non-interesting calls. #I do monitor the local, S'port Fire Dept, it's EMS units, and Caddo Fire District 2 & 9, as I have family in those areas. #I also monitor the Caddo Parish Sheriff's North channel, again, as I have relatives that live in that area. #Should something happen, closeby to them, I'd like to be able to warn them of impending danger, by cell 'phone. #Bad weather is a primary example and there is the KCS railyards nearby, so a chemical spill could happen.

Should the F.C.C. and Homeland Security ban listening to the warnings put out by the various agencies, there could be trouble. #Just the other day, there was an armed robbery of a fast-food resturaunt within two blocks of me. #The robbers ran my direction, down an alleyway and hid in the grownover next door yard. #I was able to hear the call and called the police dispatcher and let her know where the perps was hiding. #In an unusual display of showmanship (the cops NEVER come when you call them for anything), 11 patrol cars showed up in the neighborhood, 2 corporals, a sargent and louie and seven other officers from other districts. #Our three district cops were working a one car wreck, no injuries. #A footchase took place and all the officers were out of breath from chasin' these guys, LOL! #(IF you eyes are glazed you've eaten too many doughnuts).

Now, had I not heard the call, the robbers would have gotten away to rob again and possibly kill someone.

Bad cops don't put out their criminal activity over-the-air (drug dealing, pimping, shaking down good folks, even beating up folks[off-duty, under the Texas Street bridge, as "security"]) they use their city issued cell 'phones. # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Makes you want to move so far back in the mountains, they have to pipe 'sunshine' to you and you don't get the Grand Ole Opry until Wednesday, #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif # If Wyoming wasn't so dang cold in the Winter with all that snow, I'd move to some real small county, way back in the mountains, hehehe.

Respectfully submitted,
73,
Don/KA5-LQJ

Southern BORN, Southern BRED, & when I die, I'll be Southern DEAD
I like my semi-rural Alaskan QTH... it's only cold here in the winter. #Winter only lasts 7 months out of the year...
Alaska is a great state. The people of Alaska enjoy some of the most beautiful country to be found anywhere in the world. Having a place up in Alaska is a pretty nice deal.

[KB1KIX]

Your thoughts elude me.

I thought you would lean more towards transparency in government - this...... doesn't necessarily do that.

Unless the standards are such that our scanners can legally decrypt.

Jonathan

[NL7W]

Quote[/b] (KL1ZB @ Aug. 27 2007,06:27)]Quote[/b] (NL7W @ Aug. 26 2007,03:07)]Quote[/b] (KL1ZB @ Aug. 26 2007,23:21)]Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Aug. 25 2007,19:52)]It's all about the scanner whackers being PO'd that they can't listen anymore. That's why people get all up in arms.

If you needed to listen, the agency you work for would provide a radio for you to Rx/Tx with.
Yea what ever, its my tax dollars going into all this, if I want to listen I should be able to listen. I think its BS that the Government wants to listen and spy on everything we do but when we want to know whats going on in our own city they want to turn us into criminals.

I'm not to worried let them spend Billons and as soon as everything is up and running someone will come up with a crack to decode it and all that money will have been a waste.
Hello neighbor..

If you can find someone or some organization that can crack 192-bit or 256-bit AES encrypted radio networks that rotate their random generated codes on a bi-weekly or monthly basis -- more power to you. It would be easier to pay someone off (bribe) to give away the key.

Can't be done with a PC or even a modest supercomputer -- except for, perhaps, at the NSA.

Toodles.
Heh, did you forget about WEP, WPA, DeCSS, AACS, all 100% secure types of encryptions, Until someone found a flaw.

EDIT: I never said anything about cracking or brute forcing the key. I said "come up with a crack to decode it" This could mean anything from using a weak repeater to gain access to some sort of man in the middle attack.
Ahhh... but you forget something. AES encryption at the 192-bit and 256-bit levels, with the proper key generation and establishment techniques, as well as the proper security administration procedures followed, as defined in FIPS PUB 140-2, you nor your friends will ever break this code.

Why, do you ask? Because it has the full faith of the federal government at all levels, such as the NSA and DoD, as examples. They both use AES at said bit levels, under the guise of FIPS 140-2, for confident passage of SECRET, TOP SECRET, and above telecommunications data. This current approved encryption method has been tested and retested by the best minds and cryptographers at the NSA and other technology agencies in the Nation.

Oh, I forgot to mention... not only is the header of packets encrypted, but also the payload of these encrypted packets.

Better luck next time...

[kg4kww]

So, you all are saying that the local PD dispatcher will be dispatching the fuzz to a routine call using 700mhz?

What idiot came up with this idea?

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Aug. 27 2007,15:26)]So, you all are saying that the local PD dispatcher will be dispatching the fuzz to a routine call using 700mhz?

What idiot came up with this idea?
Why is it an idiotic idea?

[KL1ZB]

Quote[/b] (NL7W @ Aug. 26 2007,13:04)]Quote[/b] (KL1ZB @ Aug. 27 2007,06:27)]Quote[/b] (NL7W @ Aug. 26 2007,03:07)]Quote[/b] (KL1ZB @ Aug. 26 2007,23:21)]Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Aug. 25 2007,19:52)]It's all about the scanner whackers being PO'd that they can't listen anymore. That's why people get all up in arms.

If you needed to listen, the agency you work for would provide a radio for you to Rx/Tx with.
Yea what ever, its my tax dollars going into all this, if I want to listen I should be able to listen. I think its BS that the Government wants to listen and spy on everything we do but when we want to know whats going on in our own city they want to turn us into criminals.

I'm not to worried let them spend Billons and as soon as everything is up and running someone will come up with a crack to decode it and all that money will have been a waste.
Hello neighbor..

If you can find someone or some organization that can crack 192-bit or 256-bit AES encrypted radio networks that rotate their random generated codes on a bi-weekly or monthly basis -- more power to you. It would be easier to pay someone off (bribe) to give away the key.

Can't be done with a PC or even a modest supercomputer -- except for, perhaps, at the NSA.

Toodles.
Heh, did you forget about WEP, WPA, DeCSS, AACS, all 100% secure types of encryptions, Until someone found a flaw.

EDIT: I never said anything about cracking or brute forcing the key. I said "come up with a crack to decode it" This could mean anything from using a weak repeater to gain access to some sort of man in the middle attack.
Ahhh... but you forget something. AES encryption at the 192-bit and 256-bit levels, with the proper key generation and establishment techniques, as well as the proper security adminstration procedures followed, as defined in FIPS PUB 140-2, you nor your friends will never break this code.

Why, do you ask? Because it has the full faith of the federal government at all levels, such as the NSA and DoD, as examples. They both use AES at said bit levels, under the guise of FIPS 140-2, for confident passage of SECRET, TOP SECRET, and above telecommunications data. This current approved encryption method has been tested and retested by the best minds and cryptographers at the NSA and other technology agencies in the Nation.

Oh, I forgot to mention... not only is the header of packets encrypted, but also the payload of these encrypted packets.

Better luck next time...
Anyone that reads a history book on war or knows anything about encryption would know that no encryption is unbreakable. Everyone thinks there method is the best until someone cracks it. It doesn't matter if the NSA, DoD, FBI, CIA or PETA for that matter says otherwise.

Can I ask why your being such a jerk?

[NL7W]

Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Aug. 27 2007,12:26)]So, you all are saying that the local PD dispatcher will be dispatching the fuzz to a routine call using 700mhz?

What idiot came up with this idea?
It depends on where you live. Eventually, most of those public safety departments on 800 MHz are and will be re-banded, either on new 800 MHz spectrum that protects them from local cellular system interference like Nextel, or they are planning a wholesale move to the new 700 MHz public safety band. Geographically speaking, many urban and suburban systems are moving to 700 MHz.

[NL7W]

Quote[/b] (KL1ZB @ Aug. 27 2007,12:43)]Quote[/b] (NL7W @ Aug. 26 2007,13:04)]Quote[/b] (KL1ZB @ Aug. 27 2007,06:27)]Quote[/b] (NL7W @ Aug. 26 2007,03:07)]Quote[/b] (KL1ZB @ Aug. 26 2007,23:21)]Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Aug. 25 2007,19:52)]It's all about the scanner whackers being PO'd that they can't listen anymore. That's why people get all up in arms.

If you needed to listen, the agency you work for would provide a radio for you to Rx/Tx with.
Yea what ever, its my tax dollars going into all this, if I want to listen I should be able to listen. I think its BS that the Government wants to listen and spy on everything we do but when we want to know whats going on in our own city they want to turn us into criminals.

I'm not to worried let them spend Billons and as soon as everything is up and running someone will come up with a crack to decode it and all that money will have been a waste.
Hello neighbor..

If you can find someone or some organization that can crack 192-bit or 256-bit AES encrypted radio networks that rotate their random generated codes on a bi-weekly or monthly basis -- more power to you. It would be easier to pay someone off (bribe) to give away the key.

Can't be done with a PC or even a modest supercomputer -- except for, perhaps, at the NSA.

Toodles.
Heh, did you forget about WEP, WPA, DeCSS, AACS, all 100% secure types of encryptions, Until someone found a flaw.

EDIT: I never said anything about cracking or brute forcing the key. I said "come up with a crack to decode it" This could mean anything from using a weak repeater to gain access to some sort of man in the middle attack.
Ahhh... but you forget something. AES encryption at the 192-bit and 256-bit levels, with the proper key generation and establishment techniques, as well as the proper security adminstration procedures followed, as defined in FIPS PUB 140-2, you nor your friends will never break this code.

Why, do you ask? Because it has the full faith of the federal government at all levels, such as the NSA and DoD, as examples. They both use AES at said bit levels, under the guise of FIPS 140-2, for confident passage of SECRET, TOP SECRET, and above telecommunications data. This current approved encryption method has been tested and retested by the best minds and cryptographers at the NSA and other technology agencies in the Nation.

Oh, I forgot to mention... not only is the header of packets encrypted, but also the payload of these encrypted packets.

Better luck next time...
Anyone that reads a history book on war or knows anything about encryption would know that no encryption is unbreakable. Everyone thinks there method is the best until someone cracks it. It doesn't matter if the NSA, DoD, FBI, CIA or PETA for that matter says otherwise.

Can I ask why your being such a jerk?
Nope, not being a jerk...

I'm am frankly speaking from my experience as a technician, engineer, project manager, and consultant -- over twenty years working for the feds, and years of a parallel career in the commercial wire-line and wireless industries -- a network engineer that designed multi-state fiber optic backbone systems for CLECs, has designed and optimized regional (multi-state) cellular networks, and has designed aspects of public safety two-way systems.

That's all...

Now for the smart remark... why don't some of the prima donnas here go to work for the NSA? They could potentially use your help!

[KC9JIQ]

Quote[/b] (KB1KIX @ Aug. 27 2007,10:05)]Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Aug. 26 2007,14:54)]lastly, is making it harder for people to monitor police, fire, and public services nessesarilly a good thing ?
No, it isn't a good thing.

If anyone wants to say it is, all I have to ask is back it up.

How may criminal acts have been prosecuted over the past year(or years) and then back that up with the amount of cases where the person was caught with a scanner.

We were supposed to be able to have at least some observable oversight here!

Jonathan
Unless "we the people" are the criminals, whatever happened to innocent until PROVEN guilty?

Exactly, oversight is a good thing, Remember WACO, took out the media and brung in the tanks! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

We would only hear WHAT THE GOVERNMENT TELLS US, isn't that niffty!

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (KL1ZB @ Aug. 27 2007,13:43)]Quote[/b] (NL7W @ Aug. 26 2007,13:04)]Quote[/b] (KL1ZB @ Aug. 27 2007,06:27)]Quote[/b] (NL7W @ Aug. 26 2007,03:07)]Quote[/b] (KL1ZB @ Aug. 26 2007,23:21)]Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Aug. 25 2007,19:52)]It's all about the scanner whackers being PO'd that they can't listen anymore. That's why people get all up in arms.

If you needed to listen, the agency you work for would provide a radio for you to Rx/Tx with.
Yea what ever, its my tax dollars going into all this, if I want to listen I should be able to listen. I think its BS that the Government wants to listen and spy on everything we do but when we want to know whats going on in our own city they want to turn us into criminals.

I'm not to worried let them spend Billons and as soon as everything is up and running someone will come up with a crack to decode it and all that money will have been a waste.
Hello neighbor..

If you can find someone or some organization that can crack 192-bit or 256-bit AES encrypted radio networks that rotate their random generated codes on a bi-weekly or monthly basis -- more power to you. It would be easier to pay someone off (bribe) to give away the key.

Can't be done with a PC or even a modest supercomputer -- except for, perhaps, at the NSA.

Toodles.
Heh, did you forget about WEP, WPA, DeCSS, AACS, all 100% secure types of encryptions, Until someone found a flaw.

EDIT: I never said anything about cracking or brute forcing the key. I said "come up with a crack to decode it" This could mean anything from using a weak repeater to gain access to some sort of man in the middle attack.
Ahhh... but you forget something. AES encryption at the 192-bit and 256-bit levels, with the proper key generation and establishment techniques, as well as the proper security adminstration procedures followed, as defined in FIPS PUB 140-2, you nor your friends will never break this code.

Why, do you ask? Because it has the full faith of the federal government at all levels, such as the NSA and DoD, as examples. They both use AES at said bit levels, under the guise of FIPS 140-2, for confident passage of SECRET, TOP SECRET, and above telecommunications data. This current approved encryption method has been tested and retested by the best minds and cryptographers at the NSA and other technology agencies in the Nation.

Oh, I forgot to mention... not only is the header of packets encrypted, but also the payload of these encrypted packets.

Better luck next time...
Anyone that reads a history book on war or knows anything about encryption would know that no encryption is unbreakable. Everyone thinks there method is the best until someone cracks it. It doesn't matter if the NSA, DoD, FBI, CIA or PETA for that matter says otherwise.

Can I ask why your being such a jerk?
No Steve is NOT being a jerk and neither am I. Both Steve and I are knowledgeable with regards to this topic. But if you don't belive either of us then research AES encryption and the protocols being implemented.

As I stated in an earlier post, no encryption or security protocol is unbreakable. No professional working in the field would ever make such a claim. But AES encryption using 192 and 256 bit keys along with the prescribed protocols are extremely hard to break (if breakable at all). Yes, there is always the possibility that either the protocol or the encryption may be broken. But judging from the charachteristics of said protocols I wouldn't bet any money on it. At least not anytime soon.

So, crack away at it. If you do crack the encryption or find a flaw in the protocol then you will have done a service to the security industry as the attack -> fix -> attack -> fix development model is the basis for development of strong(er) encryption and secure(er) protocols.

[W5HTW]

Ah, decided to check out this thread in hopes it would provide a good laugh.

Success!

Ed

[kc9kun]

Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Aug. 26 2007,16:38)]Quote[/b] (KI4PJW @ Aug. 26 2007,16:25)]Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Aug. 25 2007,22:19)]Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Aug. 26 2007,15:20)]Don't worry Bearcat will come out with a scanner to receive the 700 mhz transmissions. If a kid can hack an IPHONE, Bearcat can make a scanner.
Not nessesarilly. Breaking an encryption scheme is most often a far more intractable problem than reverse engineering an iPhone. This is not to say any given cryptographic protocol is perfect indeed it is more correct to assume that they are flawed. But in cryptography "flawed" does not mean innefective.

Regardless, I highly doubt that you'll see anything on the market from Bearcat to decrypt the 700mhz transmissions nor will you find them effectivly broken anytime soon. If you feel otherwise I challenge you to try. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Tu Da Lu
Hello All,

I must agree with IZE on the technical issue of hacking the cryptography. It will indeed be more than most can handle without a specific knowlege of how the system functions.
As well, if the original post is correct ( I feel it is), to be caught listening in on the DHS control grid will be a sure fire way to end up being "disappeared" and held as an unlawful enemy" of some type.
Even with knowledge of how an encryption algorithm works (which is public info in many cases) it is still extremely difficult to break an encrypted message. Thats because encryption algorithms translate to intractable mathematical problems. The "encryption function" is intractable. In simple terms given x, f(x) is extremely easy to compute. But, given just f(x) , x is extremely hard to compute (without specific info, i.e. keys).
that does make alot of sense. you could find out what x is not when f(x) but like you said x could be any of the other real numbers or also put group of numbers. thats alot of combinations to go through and chances are if it's good stuff by the time your close or you think you are they change it. and you won't know they change it. now if you could build software to do it for you. which i could not do what so ever. then maybe you might be in business maybe. just my 2 cents

[kc9kun]

i dont know the protocols for this stuff but yeah if it is 256 bit thats going to be some tough stuff. but i am willing to bet it will be broke. they always are. but then they just build it better but like said before thats the process.

good luck to who ever trys

[NL7W]

Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ Aug. 27 2007,17:14)]Ah, decided to check out this thread in hopes it would provide a good laugh.

Success!

Ed
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[NL7W]

Quote[/b] (kb5wbh @ Aug. 27 2007,02:43)]Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Aug. 26 2007,21:20)]Don't worry Bearcat will come out with a scanner to receive the 700 mhz transmissions. If a kid can hack an IPHONE, Bearcat can make a scanner.
Maybe I am wrong on this? I was told that the Radio Shack and Uniden hand held scanners will receive 700mhz, the Radio Shack will not trunk there but the Uniden will. Some of the AWIN (http://www.awin.arkansas.gov/#) repeater towers are 700mhz and those scanners will receive it. AWIN is the Statewide APCO25 digital system that is being used by Public Service agencies in Arkansas.
Maybe someone who has one can confirm this? I don't own one, can't see me buying a scanner receiver that costs around $500.
73
mike
If the transmissions aren't encrypted, sure. Any P25 trunking capable scanner will decode the talk group conversations. Though, any level of digital encryption (note there is a default and interoperable level of encryption, will defeat said scanners. The stronger encryption varieties will practically eliminate anyone but the NSA and warrant carrying government officials, with cooperation of the local, state, or federal public safety agency, from eavesdropping.

Toodles.