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AA7BQ
08-24-2007, 05:25 PM
The following is a Q-S-T. U-H-F repeaters face new challenges from Pave Paws radar, Germany comes to 500 Kilohertz, D-Star is the star of the Huntsville Hamfest and Grant Morine, W-4-G-H-M, receives the 2007 Young Ham of the Year Award and a cat tries some strange communications of its own, Find out the outcome of its curiosity on Amateur Radio Newsline™ report number 1567 coming your way right now.


HAM RADIO VS PAVE PAWS RADAR - ROUND 2

The saga of the government's Pave Paws radar system versus a number of UHF ham radio repeaters in Northern California and New England continues. This, as the ARRL Lab sends out a letter to those systems to bring them up to date on where interference mitigation now stands. Amateur Radio Newsline's Bruce Tennant, K6PZW, is here with some of the details made public by one repeater owner:

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The following is from a letter to an unnamed California repeater owner from ARRL Lab Manager Ed Hare, W1RFI, posted to the Internet. It says that back on July 16th a teleconference was held among ARRL representatives, the staff of the US Air Force Space Command and civilian contractors from the Department of Defense that operate of the Pave Paws radar sites.

During the meeting Department of Defense representatives confirmed that specific interfering signals were measured on a number of frequencies used by the Pave Paws Radar system. The research was done using a calibrated antenna and receivers at both Pave Paws sites during August, 2006.

The Air Force stated that its concerns about interference are based on these actual measurements. Also, factors such as tower shielding or other antenna patterns have been fully taken into account. In other words, the claims of interference from UHF repeaters operating near the two Pave Paws sites is real. Also that it is based on solid data and good engineering practice. -- end quote.

So what's to be done to eliminate the problem? According to Hare's letter to the repeater owner, to work towards resolving this with his repeater, the ARRL Lab recommends that he take the following steps,. Again in part we quote:

In some cases, it may be possible to reduce power. The reduction in power from 50 watts to 5 watts, for example, is a reduction of 10 dB. In some cases, however, where tens of dB of power reduction is required, it simply is not practical to do that much power reduction to that extent.

Power reduction can also be combined with a change in antenna pattern. If the antenna used on your repeater is omnidirectional, installing a directional antenna with a null in the direction of the Pave Paws Radar site should further reduce the signal transmitted in the direction of the radar system.

In cases where significant attenuation by use of nulls is required -- more than 10 to 15 dB, for example -- it will be necessary to "aim" that null carefully. One way to do this could be to listen to the radar signal, using a receiver with an S meter, and adjust the orientation of the antenna until the received radar signal is at its minimum value.

You may be able to relocate the repeater, either significantly farther away, or perhaps lower in elevation, if you can take advantage of terrain shielding in the direction of the Pave Paws Radar and still get reasonable coverage for the repeater. Terrain shielding can help, but that, too, has its limits. -- end quote.

W1RFI continues by stating that there is a practical limit to how much interference mitigation can be accomplished. While there is no limit to how far power can be reduced, at some point the repeater becomes unusable. In some cases, especially those where significant mitigation is being required, the only practical solution may be to shut the repeater down, or locate it significantly farther away, or in a location where significant terrain shielding can further reduce the signal at the Pave Paws radar site.

For the repeater owner operators of the affected systems and their users, none of this is very good news.

For the Amateur Radio Newsline, I'm Bruce Tennant, K6PZW, in Los Angeles.

--

The situation currently involves 15 repeaters in an area of less than 100 miles of Otis Air Force Base near Cape Cod, Massachusetts, and more than 100 repeaters within some 140 miles of Beale Air Force Base in California.

And FM voice repeaters might not be the only ones eventually affected. Department of Defense officials indicated to Hare that there could be other sources of interference identified in the future including other amateur operations in the 70cm band. However, for now they are only working only with the original list of repeaters provided to them last March. (QRZ.com, VHF Reflector, others)

**

RESCUE RADIO: HAMS STEP IN AS WICKED WEATHER HITS

Ham radio has been working side by side with first responders from the Caribbean to Mexico to the U-S mid-West. This as Mother Nature shows that she is still in charge of the rain, the wind and the skies.

First to America's heartland heavy rains have sent rivers spilling over their banks, flooding towns and stranding thousands from Minnesota to Ohio. As the wicked weather moved in, hams across the effected region went on alert. As waters rose, some ham radio communications units were called up.

According to a report posted to QRZ.com, early on, Winona County Wisconsin ARES and RACES was looking for spotters to help them with their flash flooding reports. Also, a Red Cross shelter had been activated at St. Mary's college as part of the county were being evacuated. The hams involved in both operations stayed on duty all night without any breaks.

In Ohio, Governor Ted Strickland termed the situation a major disaster. He said that in one county alone more than 700 houses were severely damaged or destroyed by the raging overflows. Hams there are also heavily involved in relief efforts as well.

Across the Caribbean and into Mexico the story is Hurricane Dean. The storm first raked Martinique, St Lucia, Dominica, and other islands. It then hit Jamaica:

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"I copy 81 MPH winds in a North-Wst direction from Kington from John Williams. Is that a gust or is that a sustained wind?"

"From what I understand, that is a sustained wind. KA4IYK."

--


Using both over the air radio and the Voice over I-P Hurricane Net, hams passed along vital environmental reports to the National Hurricane Center in Miami. Thats where station WX4NHC had been activated. Radio amateurs also became a lifeline to some islands as cellular telephone service was all but obliterated as wire-line communications and electrical power was literally blown away.

Dean then made its way across the Gulf of Mexico slamming into the Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula as a Category 5 storm. Thankfully, Dean made landfall in a less heavily populated area than originally predicted. Still, winds in excess of 120 miles an hour were reported in Corozal. And across the region most phone service and electrical power was knocked out. During the height of natures rampage, much of the communications into Belize and surrounding areas was using ham radio circuits.

As we go to air, Dean has become a scattered tropical depression. Forecasters say that its remnants could bring some flash flooding to desert areas of the great American south-west. (ARNresline™, Audio provided by KD1CY)

**

BPL UPDATE: RSGB OPPOSES BPL SCHEME

Turning to news on the Broadband Over Powerline front, the Radio Society of Great Britain is supporting International Amateur Radio Union Region 1 efforts to stop proposals, whereby Broadband over Powerline systems could operate within the High Frequency broadcast bands. This, using a technique called dynamic notching. The R-S-G-B support has been to echo IARU's detailed technical objections; the response can be seen from the link on the RSGB web site. (GB2RS)

**

THE BPL FIGHT: DIREC-TV IN BPL WEB ACCESS DEAL WITH CURRENT GROUP

Some better news from this side of the Atlantic. That’s where United States satellite television provider DirecTV is going into the Broadband Over Powerline business, but there is very little concern that the system they will be using will cause interference to ham radio or any other service. This is because Direc TV is partnering with the Current Group to offer subscribers high-speed Internet and voice services carried by over electric power lines. And the Current Group has a good track record when it comes to protecting over the air reception from the kind of interference caused by other B-P-L systems.

According to the CGC Communicator, it contacted the ARRL and was told that Current Technologies is the company that has already deployed B-P-L to about 60,000 homes in Cincinatti, Ohio and is in the process of building out a deployment in the greater Dallas area as well. The ARRL told CGC that these deployments have proceeded without major interference problems for ham operators.

The ARRL told the CGC Communicator that Current has been an early leader in carefully choosing its design to avoid interference to Amateur Radio. Their equipment does not operate below 30 MHz on overhead lines and all on premise wiring uses HomePlug technology which notches out the ham bands.

Direc TV says that its service could start as early as the end of 2007. To date the ARRL says that it has no interference reports involving either Current or HomePlug equipment. And that’s very good news for hams in the Dallas - Fort Worth Texas area where the Direc TV BPL rollout will begin. (CGC)

**

BREAK 1

From the United States of America, We are the Amateur Radio Newsline, heard on bulletin stations around the world including the Muncie Area Amateur Radio Club net in Muncie Indiana in the memory of David Doirion, WA1MKE/9

(5 sec pause here)


**
THE SOCIAL SCENE: HUNTSVILLE HAMFEST / ARRL NATIONAL A BIG SUCCESS

Take a warm weekend in the South. Add in some 5000 hams eager to see one another. Provide the latest Amateur Radio gear to play with. Add in some of the nations top speakers and baste with the gigantic ARRL expo. What it all adds up to is the combined Huntsville Hamfest and 2007 ARRL National Convention. And according to Heil Sound's Chip Margelli, K7JA, this has got to be one of the best Huntsville Hamfests ever:

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Margelli: "I have to say that the show has been very exciting so far. I was coming down the stairs in the lobby just as the doors were opening. There was a crowd of people like I have not seen in years. (They were) all the way out to the front door and completely loaded the lobby. People were just storming into the exhibit area and it looks very exciting. People are having a great time."

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And having a great time they are says ARRL Alabama Section Manager Greg Sarratt, W4OZK. He termed this years Huntsville Hamfet as being among the very best:

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Sarratt: "Oh, this hamfest is by far the best. Its just o much fun this weekend. So many people here. So many activities. Its wonderful."

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And wonderful is not an overstatement as far as the manufacturer displaying their wares were concerned. Dennis Motschenbacher, K7BV, of Vertex Standard says that Huntsville 2007 was one of the very best:

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Motschenbacher: "I'd rate it on a scale of 1 to 10 at least a 9. The organizers did a great job. And on a national level and counting all shows, this one is probably in the top 4, I would say."

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Motschenbacher 's words were echoed by just about every manufacturers representative and vendor. And according to this years Huntsville Hamfest emcee Doug Childs, K-4-D-I-G, the best may be yet to come:

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Childs: "Im hoping that everyone goes home this year and tells everyone what a great time they had and that brings more out-of-towners here because that what makes it so much fun to talk to these distant contacts (in person) that you do not normally get to see unless you go traveling all over the place."
--

And some hams we spoke to did travel long distances. A number came from as far off as Europe and Asia. Some were delegates to the Global Amateur Radio Communications Conference that was held in tandem with the Huntsville Hamfest. But others were just there to share the sights and sounds of one of the friendliest ham radio shows found anywhere on the globe. Southern ham radio hospitality, at its very best. (ARNewsline™)

**

THE SOCIAL TECHNOLOGY SCENE: D-STAR IS THE STAR IN HUNTSVILLE

Every convention needs a star attraction, but in the case of the Huntsville Hamfest, the star was not a person but rather an emerging mode of communications. Its called D-Star and Alabama is likely the D-Star capital of the world. The area sports more D-Star users and D-Star repeaters than just about anywhere else in the country so its not really surprising that this emerging replacement for FM would take center stage at the Huntsville Hanfest. Greg Sarratt, W4OZK, says it all came about as the result of improvements in the regions ham radio emergency communications capability:

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Sarratt: "We've had a statewide analog link for many years like many states do. And we have lost a few sites so we are looking at D-Star as addubf to and enhancing that system. And once we started promoting it, it really caught on like wildfire and were covering the state pretty much now."

--

Because of this, more and more hams in Alabama are going the D-Star route. So in planning the hamfest a decision was made to devote a lot of forum time and some after hours gatherings to the new mode. Again, Greg Sarratt, W-4-O-Zed-K:

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Sarratt: "We had standing room only in our 'Introduction to D-Star (forum). Probably 150 people. Last night after the hamfest (closed) we had a D-Star users group meeting and reception. Same thing: We had an overflow capacity and we actually asked the hotel to move the retractable wall away to give us more space and more seats. They gladly did that adding another 120 to 150 people at the reception."

--

So will D-Star eventually supersede analog F-M as the mode of choice for VHF and UHF repeater operation nationwide? Maybe it will, but not right away. At present there are only about 60 D-Star repeaters on the air as opposed to the 3000 or more operating analog F-M. And while there are those who will always want to be the first to try something new, it appears that for the immediate future a lot of eyes and ears are on Alabama to see where that states D-Star trail leads. (ARNewsline™)

**

THE SOCIAL SCENE: W4GHM RECEIVES YHOTY AWARD AT HUNTSVILLE

Another aspect of the Huntsville Hamfest is that it’s the unofficial home of our own amateur Radio Newsline Young Ham of the Year Award ceremony. Since about 1993 its been where most of the winners were presented with their award and this year was Grant Morine, W4GHM. Mark Abramovich, NT3V, has more:

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It was a proud moment for all as our Newsline editor, Bill Pasternak, brought Grant up to the stage for the award presentation.

"Most, though not all, most of the winners have one or two things in common: They're either members of the Scouts or they come from a family of educators. In this case, Grant is a Scout and he's been involved in Scouting virtually all his life from what I understand.

"He is singled out for one specific project that he undertook which was the design and fabrication of antennas, stand-by antennas to help an emergency operations organization in his home state. But, his other accomplishment which is just equally as important is that of having spent a lot of time helping other youngsters - you're only 18 now, you're a youngster, 17, you're one of the young ones. Grant has brought a number of kids into ham radio, kids, young adults who are starting their own ham radio careers."

For his part, Grant gave the credit to others for his achievement.

"I would like to thank anyone who helped me with my Eagle project which is what helped me get this award - all those people back at home who helped me, especially my mentor, all the Scouts who helped me to do my Eagle project. I'm really grateful for all of that. I just came back from a week of space camp and that was part of the prize and that was amazing.

"And, I'd like to thank CQ Magazine and Yaseu for the nice equipment they gave me and also Newsline for the plaques and the award. I had a wonderful time here and I'm looking forward to having more fun as a ham. Thanks very much."

Grant, from all of us on the committee, congratulations, once again!

For the Amateur Radio Newsline, I'm Mark Abramowicz, NT3V, chairman of the Young Ham of the Year award committee.

--

Our sincere thanks to our corporate underwriters Vertex Standard and CQ Magazine. Also to Charlie Emmerson, N4OKL, and the team that puts on the Huntsville Hamfest for welcoming us back, year after year after year. We truly thank you all for your hospitality and your support of the Young Ham of the Year Award program. (ARNewsline™)

**

RESCUE RADIO: MARYLAND HAMS ASSIST IN ROAD RESCUE

Two Maryland ham radio operators recently helped bring speedy assistance to the scene of a two-car collision near northern Stafford County. According to the Fredricksburg Free Lance Star on-line,

During a heavy rainstorm on July 27, Siegfried Gates, KG4UCM was driving south on State Route 612 ialong the western edge of Quantico Marine Corps Base. At 6:30 p.m. he came across two cars that had plunged into the southbound ditch. Other vehicles had stopped to see if they could assist.

Gates asked if anyone had called 911 and he was told there was no cell signal in the area. So KG4UCM used his 2 meter radio to contact Camden Bullock, N2CLB, who in turn used his cellular phone to call the local emergency response number. He was connected to the Prince William County dispatcher. Within minutes the Stafford emergency unit arrived and the victim was taken to a local hospital for treatment.

T.J. Pittman ,N4SJX, is secretary of the Stafford Amateur Radio Association. He told the newspaper that this story brings great credit to the two ham radio operators, and also to the police dispatchers and the medical teams who responded to the aid of our citizens during this time of need. (eHam.net, Fredricksburg Free Lance, K0OV)

**

RESCUE RADIO: NM AMATEUR RADIO CRUCIAL IN RESCUING ELDERLY WOMAN

Amateur Radio was crucial in summoning help for an elderly New Mexico woman after repeated attempts to contact 911 services by landline and cellular telephone failed.

On August 12th , a thunderstorm knocked out parts of Cibola county's telephone service. About 5:50 in the afternoon, Jonathan Pickens', KD5PHG, received a phone call for his wife, Pam. She told him that a resident of the El Morro Ranches had discovered an elderly neighbor lying semi-conscious on the floor of her home.

The couple rushed to the home of the woman. It turns out that the woman was eighty-six years-old. She had been on the floor for at least two days and was suffering from an apparent stroke and broken hip. She had been unable to yell for help or move to reach a phone. Pam, having medical training as a first responder, began providing assistance while neighbors tried to summon help.

Another El Morro resident was finally able to reach the Cibola County Sheriff and notify them of the situation. But the Sheriff's office was unable to contact area ambulance services because their local phone service had also failed.

KD5PHG realized the situation required an ambulance or possible life flight. With local landline and cell phones useless, Jonathan used his mobile radio to contact the Cibola County Amateur Radio Emergency Service on the Zuni 2 meter repeater.

Dana and Kathy Farmer, WA5SOX and KB5QGH, responded to the call for help from Vanderwagen, New Mexico. They were able to contact the Gallup Metro dispatch who sent the Vanderwagon Fire Department and the Pine Hill Clinic ambulance. The elderly woman was eventually taken to the Gallup medical center for further evaluation. Shes likely alive thanks to the quick response of her ham radio neighbors and their ability to communicate with all phone service knocked out. (K5CEC)

**


BREAK 2

This is ham radio news for today’s radio amateur. From the United States of America, We are the Amateur Radio Newsline with links to the world from our only official website at www.arnewsline.org and being relayed by the volunteer services of the following radio amateur:

(5 sec pause here)

**

RADIO EXPERIMENTS: GERMANY IN 500 KHZ EXPERIMENT

Five experimental German stations are now on the air in the 600 Meter Band. While most of the operators are German hams, the experiment is not classified as Amateur Radio because there is no 500 KHz or 600 meter ham radio allocation in the Germany.

Rather they are considered as being experimental stations that operate under special permission and use the special D I prefix. All stations are allowed to transmit only on 505 point 1 kHz with a bandwidth not exceeding 100 Hertz. They are also limited to an effective radiated power no greater than 9 watts.

All operators welcome QSL cards. Send them to the addresses that they give you on the air. (Southgate)

Quote[/b] ]Correction 2007-08-26:
Five experimental German stations are now on the air in the 600 Meter Band. While most of the operators are German hams, the experiment is not classified as Amateur Radio because there is no 500 KHz or 600 meter ham radio allocation in the Germany.

Rather they are considered as being experimental stations that operate under special permission and use the special DI prefix. All stations are allowed to transmit only on 505.1 kHz with a bandwidth not exceeding 100 Hertz. They are also limited to an effective radiated power no greater than 9 watts.

All operators welcome QSL cards. Send them to the addresses that they give you on the air. (Southgate)


**

NAMES IN THE NEWS: ARRL SECTION MANAGER WINNERS ANNOUNCED

Some names in the news. First up in the only contested ARRL Section Manager race this summer, Bill Hillendahl, KH6GJV, was re-elected as the S-M for San Francisco. He received 237 votes and his opponent, Warren "TR" Reese, WB6TMY, received 134 votes. Election ballots were counted Tuesday, August 21, 2007 at ARRL Headquarters. Hillendahl, of Santa Rosa, California, begins his third two-year term of office on October 1st . .

All other ARRL Section Managers running for re-election and who did not face opposition and were declared re-elected. This includes Jeff Ryan, K0RM, of Colorado; Mark Tharp, KB7HDX, in Eastern Washington; Susan Swiderski, AF4FO, in Georgia; Phineas Icenbice (PRON ICE IN BICE), W6BF, of Los Angeles; Ray Taylor, N5NAV, down in South Texas and Ann Rinehart, KA8ZGY, of West Virginia.

Ron Murdock, W6KJ, who already had been declared elected as the new Sacramento California Valley Section Manager as of October 1, began his term a little early on July 2nd . Murdock was appointed to fill in for Casey McPartland, W7IB, who stepped down because of a planned move out of the section. (ARRL)

**

NAMES IN THE NEWS: CONGRATS TO KC6LXQ

A word of congratulations to television reporter Tony Valdez, KC6LXQ, on his recognition by the Los Angeles Police Department for his public service work on its behalf. KC6LXQ was honored on Tuesday, August 21st for his volunteerism in producing and hosting a new video presentation for that law enforcement agency.

Tony Valdez is a career reporter for the Fox owned KTTV and host of his own public affairs program "Midday Sunday" that airs on that station. He also profiles criminal suspects and missing persons in an ongoing news segment called L.A.’s Most Wanted. To date, L.A.’s Most Wanted has resulted in the arrest and surrender of more than 100 suspects since its inception back in early 1992. KC6LXQ is also known within the ham radio community as an occasional contributor to these weekly Amateur Radio Newsline reports. (ARNewsline™)

**

NAMES IN THE NEWS: CLAY FREINWALD, K7CR RECEIVES RADIO WORLD AWARD

And kudos to our longtime friend Clay Freinwald, K7CR. Clay has been named to receive the 2007 Radio World Excellence in Engineering Award from the editors of Radio World.

The announcement was made by Editor in Chief Paul J. McLane. He says that the recipients of the award represent the highest ideals of the U.S. radio broadcast engineering profession and reflect those ideals through contributions to the industry.

Clay Freinwald is an RF systems engineer for Entercom in Seattle, Washington, and vice president of the Society of Broadcast Engineers. He is recognized for his work to improve the state of emergency alerting systems in the United States and broadcasters’ involvement in the Emergency Alert System, as well as for his accomplishments as a corporate technical executive.

K7CR is also well known in the ham radio world for his longtime involvement in frequency coordination matters. He was one of the founders of the Western Washingtom Amateur Relay Association.

The publication bestowing the honor, Radio World, is a highly respected specialty newspaper for radio managers and engineers. (RW)

**

THE SOCIAL SCENE: HANDIHAMS AT 40

And this summers Handi Ham Minnesota Radio Camp will also be a celebration of 40 years of the Courage Handiham System. And to commemorate this milestone, camp stations W0ZSW and W0EQO will be on the air making anniversary contacts. Operation will be on 40 and 20 meters using C-W and SSB. If you work either of these stations between Friday August 24th and Tuesday the 28th , QSL with a self addressed stamped envelope to Avery Finn, K0HLA, 3915 Golden Valley Rd, Golden Valley, Minnesota, 55422 (Hamdi Hams, N7HVF)

**

RADIO SAFETY: KOREAN STUDY TIES AM TOWERS TO LEUKEMIA

A new study conducted in South Korea suggests children who live close to an AM radio transmission tower may have an elevated risk of leukemia. According to Radio World, researchers found that children who lived within 2 kilometers of an AM radio transmitter were twice as likely to develop lymphocytic leukemia as children who lived more than 20 kilometers away.

The study included 1,928 children with leukemia, 956 with brain cancer and 3,082 healthy children. The researchers took measurements of electric and magnetic fields surrounding AM transmission towers in various areas of South Korea. They then used a mathematical model to estimate residents’ exposure to radiation from the towers.

The findings were published in the American Journal of Epidemiology. (RW)

**

EMERGING TECHNOLOGY: MODERN DAY FANTASTIC VOYAGE

Shades of the 1960's science fiction classic Fantastic Voyage. A news medical telemetry capsule that when swallowed travels through the digestive system becomes a sort of mini transponder has won federal approval. The wireless device, about the size of a large vitamin pill, journeys along the gastrointestinal tract collecting data and transmitting it to a receiver worn on the patient's belt or around the neck.

Doctors like the telemetry capsule because it can be given at the office and is reliable and noninvasive. They say that it is a way to diagnose an uncomfortable stomach condition and other digestive track problems on a real time basis. The Food and Drug Administration approved the device on July 19th following clinical trials that wrapped up in November 2006.

Manufactured by a company called Smart Pill, each of these micro transponders will sell for about $500 each. And for those of you not familiar with the 1966 movie Fantastic Voyage, its plot involves a diplomat who is nearly assassinated. In order to save him, a submarine and its crew are shrunken to microscopic size and injected into his blood stream. Their job is to burn away a blood clot before the patient expires. For now, the Smart Pill is likely as close to that scenario as medical science is going to get. (Press Release)

**

WORLDBEAT - SWEDEN: NORDIC HF CONFERENCE

The latest Nordic High Frequency Conference was held August 14th to the 17th . The 3 day program covers Very Low Frequency, Low Frequency as well as High Frequency operations.

The conference was initially planned for a limited audience of Nordic countries now. It has since gone international with contributions of papers, exhibits and participants from around the globe.

The Nordic conferences on H-F communications began back in 1986 in Sweden. Since then the event has been held every 3 years at Faro Island off Sweden's south-eastern coast. More about the Nordic HF Conference is on-line at www.nordichf.org/ (Southgate)

**

BEACON NEWS: NEW 6 METER BEACON IN THE CZECH REPUBLIC

A new 6 meter propagation beacon has come to 505.060 MHz in the Czech Republic. According to OK2BVG the OK0EMW experimental beacon is in operation from Grid Square J N 88 K S running 1 watt out to an inverted L antenna. It uses a home built transmitter and identifies in Morse at 6 words per minute. QSN reports go by e-mail to lubomir.bobalik@ rtv5.cz (VHF Reflector)
**

DX

In D-X, a DXpedition to the Republic of Equatorial Guinea will take place between October 5th and the 14th . Operators will be KH7Y, EA5BRE, EA5YN and EA5BYP. The team will operate with two stations and will sign 3C7Y. Activity will be on all bands and modes SSB, CW and RTTY. QSL via EA5BYP.

Look for several stations to be active between September 7th and October 20th to celebrate the World Rugby Association Championship in France and the U.K. Four different levels and awards will be available. Details about the awards are available on line at www dot ref-union dot org
And G3RWL, will be active from Barbados as 8P6DR between September 27th and October 14th. He plans to be active in the CQ WW RTTY DX Contest on September 29th and 30th . QSL direct to G3RWL.

Also plan for W7EJ active from Morocco as CN2R starting around October 19t. He also plans to be active in the CQ World Wide DX SSB Contest on October 27th and 28th as a Single-Operator Single-Band 160 meter entry. QSL via W7EJ.

Lastly, DF8HS, will activate Samso Island for the Danish Islands Award from August 26th to September 8th . He will be operating all bands using SSB, PSK-31 and RTTY. QSL to DF8HS.

(Above from various DX news sources)

**

THAT FINAL ITEM: CAT USES TECHNOLOGY ON COMPOSER

And finally this week, a truly different kind of communications. That between feline and man. That’s feline as in cat or in this case kitten. Amateur Radio Newsline's Bill Pasternak, WA6ITF, grabs for some catnip to tell this one:

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To tell the story we must wander across the Atlantic pond to Merry old England. That’s where the creator of the musical CATS has had his latest work destroyed by one of his own feline friends. Specifically by a kitten named Otto who was a bit to curious about a computer built into an electronic piano.

London's Daily Mail reports that famed composer Andrew Lloyd Webber's new kitten managed to obliterate the music he had penned for the upcoming sequel to his famed The Phantom of the Opera. This, after the six-month-old cat somehow climbed into the frame of the composers digital piano and then managed to erase the audio files on its built-in computer and hard drive.

The new musical that Sir Andrew is writing is titled the Phantom in Manhattan. It is based on a novel of the same name.

Andrew Lloyd Webber told the London paper that he was at work trying to write some more new music when Otto got into the grand piano. The cat then jumped onto the computer and the entire score for the new Phantom was lost. According to news reports Otto the kitten was unhurt.

For the Amateur Radio Newsline, I'm Evi Simons, in New York.

--

The composer says that kitten did all the damage all in one fell swoop. We are wondering what message Otto the kittie was trying to deliver to Sir Andrew. (Published news reports)

**

NEWSCAST CLOSE

With thanks to Alan Labs, AMSAT, the ARRL, the CGC Communicator, CQ Magazine, the FCC, the Ohio Penn DX Bulletin, Radio Netherlands, Rain, the RSGB, the Southgate News and Australia's W-I-A News, that's all from the Amateur Radio Newsline™. Our e-mail address is newsline@arnewsline.org. More information is available at Amateur Radio Newsline's™ only official website located at www.arnewsline.org. You can also write to us or support us at Amateur Radio Newsline™, P.O. Box 660937, Arcadia, California 91066.

For now, with Bill Pasternak, WA6ITF, at the editors desk, I’m Don Wilbanks, AE5DW< saying 73 and we thank you for listening.

Amateur Radio Newsline™ is Copyright 2007. All rights reserved.

N5VLZ
08-24-2007, 09:56 PM
That cat story was funny, although obviously not for the composer!!

#It reminds me of a the story of a fellow ham, whose cat got to his keyboard, which was hooked up to Echolink at the time...and it started connecting to all these unknown nodes overseas!!

#And, it's almost on the same page as the ham who had a pet cockatoo in his shack...the bird would constantly chirp CQ in Morse Code!! The joke was that "that BRD station has a real chirp on his signal" (hi hi). http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Daryl, N5VLZ

KA5LQJ
08-25-2007, 01:45 AM
Quote[/b] ]BEACON NEWS: #NEW 6 METER BEACON IN THE CZECH REPUBLIC

A new 6 meter propagation beacon has come to 505.060 MHz in the Czech Republic. #According to OK2BVG the OK0EMW experimental beacon is in operation from Grid Square J N 88 K S running 1 watt out to an inverted L antenna. #It uses a home built transmitter and identifies in Morse at 6 words per minute. #QSN reports go by e-mail to lubomir.bobalik@ rtv5.cz #(VHF Reflector)
**

If memory serves me, this was reported by another wire service and the frequency was 505.060 kHz in the 600 meter band. #Either frequency, 505.06 khz OR 505.06 mHz, would be NO WHERE near 6 meters. # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

This station, along with the German stations certainly should peak interest in the LF DXin'g band, again. #

Respectfully,
73,
Don/KA5-LQJ

w6em
08-25-2007, 04:16 PM
Quote[/b] (KA5LQJ @ Aug. 23 2007,19:45)]Quote[/b] ]BEACON NEWS: #NEW 6 METER BEACON IN THE CZECH REPUBLIC

A new 6 meter propagation beacon has come to 505.060 MHz in the Czech Republic. #According to OK2BVG the OK0EMW experimental beacon is in operation from Grid Square J N 88 K S running 1 watt out to an inverted L antenna. #It uses a home built transmitter and identifies in Morse at 6 words per minute. #QSN reports go by e-mail to lubomir.bobalik@ rtv5.cz #(VHF Reflector)
**

If memory serves me, this was reported by another wire service and the frequency was 505.060 kHz in the 600 meter band. #Either frequency, 505.06 khz OR 505.06 mHz, would be NO WHERE near 6 meters. # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

This station, along with the German stations certainly should peak interest in the LF DXin'g band, again. #

Respectfully,
73,
Don/KA5-LQJ
Must have been the Huntsville jet lag. #Bill's editing missed it. #Its actually closer to 600 meters, as you point out.

Precisely 593.99 meters worth of wavelength in free space.

Not one, but two mistakes. #The frequency and the wavelength.

C'mon, Bill.......

Or, maybe just the frequency, 50.5060. #In that case, maybe its just a decimal.....

kc7gnm
08-25-2007, 06:42 PM
Every story I have seen about the Pave Paws system has talked about repeater owners. Fact is we are a secondary user on the 440 frequency spectrum. If the government says shut it off then you comply. I can't see what the fight is all about because I bet if someone that was secondary to one of our bands was interfering with ham radio we would want them shut down completely. That is where the double standard is. What about all the other folks in that area that are using 440 besides the repeater owners? They should shut down too. This is a non-issue and why are we still fighting as a secondary user against the primary user?

w6em
08-25-2007, 08:39 PM
Quote[/b] (kc7gnm @ Aug. 24 2007,12:42)]What about all the other folks in that area that are using 440 besides the repeater owners? #They should shut down too. #
Yep. #Let's shut down those garage door openers down around 430. #Can't be having garage doors opened and closed in the San Francisco Bay area. #That'll impact Natyounal Seacureitee (Dubyah-eze).

KB1SF
08-25-2007, 10:52 PM
Quote[/b] (w6em @ Aug. 25 2007,13:39)]Quote[/b] (kc7gnm @ Aug. 24 2007,12:42)]What about all the other folks in that area that are using 440 besides the repeater owners? They should shut down too.
Yep. Let's shut down those garage door openers down around 430. Can't be having garage doors opened and closed in the San Francisco Bay area. That'll impact Natyounal Seacureitee (Dubyah-eze).
This thread is already starting out like most of them do.

Someone posts a news article or makes a comment about something of importance to our Service. Then, someone else (usually from the same cast of characters) makes a snide comment about it or starts nit-picking it to death.

The Pave Paws case is open and shut. Yet, despite that fact, some here STILL persist in trying to turn it into a political forum by regurgitating their own narrow political views on issues that have absolutely NO bearing whatsoever on the outcome of the case or its impact on our Service.

It's often been said the Internet has the power to make people look like fools at the speed of light. Why some people persist in continually putting their fingers to keyboards (and thereby removing all doubt) is quite beyond me.

Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF

KW0U
08-26-2007, 12:02 AM
Webber story is a good reminder to back up, back up, and back up again. On the plus side, there's a cute piece called "Kitten on the Keys" based on another cat's jump and walk across a piano.

wa6itf
08-26-2007, 02:27 AM
Quote[/b] (KA5LQJ @ Aug. 24 2007,18:45)]Quote[/b] ]BEACON NEWS: NEW 6 METER BEACON IN THE CZECH REPUBLIC

A new 6 meter propagation beacon has come to 505.060 MHz in the Czech Republic. According to OK2BVG the OK0EMW experimental beacon is in operation from Grid Square J N 88 K S running 1 watt out to an inverted L antenna. It uses a home built transmitter and identifies in Morse at 6 words per minute. QSN reports go by e-mail to lubomir.bobalik@ rtv5.cz (VHF Reflector)
**

If memory serves me, this was reported by another wire service and the frequency was 505.060 kHz in the 600 meter band. Either frequency, 505.06 khz OR 505.06 mHz, would be NO WHERE near 6 meters. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

This station, along with the German stations certainly should peak interest in the LF DXin'g band, again.

Respectfully,
73,
Don/KA5-LQJ
Not 6 meters. -- My bad.

With the hacking situation and site security issues I managed to put up a very early script. Its 600 meters not 6 Meters.

Not a good week for us, for Sir Andrew or for Otto the cat.

de
Bill P. / ITF

kc7gnm
08-26-2007, 05:48 AM
Quote[/b] (kb1sf @ Aug. 25 2007,18:52)]Quote[/b] (w6em @ Aug. 25 2007,13:39)]Quote[/b] (kc7gnm @ Aug. 24 2007,12:42)]What about all the other folks in that area that are using 440 besides the repeater owners? They should shut down too.
Yep. Let's shut down those garage door openers down around 430. Can't be having garage doors opened and closed in the San Francisco Bay area. That'll impact Natyounal Seacureitee (Dubyah-eze).
This thread is already starting out like most of them do.

Someone posts a news article or makes a comment about something of importance to our Service. Then, someone else (usually from the same cast of characters) makes a snide comment about it or starts nit-picking it to death.

The Pave Paws case is open and shut. Yet, despite that fact, some here STILL persist in trying to turn it into a political forum by regurgitating their own narrow political views on issues that have absolutely NO bearing whatsoever on the outcome of the case or its impact on our Service.

It's often been said the Internet has the power to make people look like fools at the speed of light. Why some people persist in continually putting their fingers to keyboards (and thereby removing all doubt) is quite beyond me.

Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF
But if you read what I wrote, I said that we are acting like we are the primary users in the band. Why not just shut down and deal with it. Folks need to learn that we are secondary in the 440 band and if the primary users say to shut down then we need to say roger and move out.

wa6itf
08-26-2007, 08:23 AM
Quote[/b] (kc7gnm @ Aug. 25 2007,22:48)]Quote[/b] (kb1sf @ Aug. 25 2007,18:52)]Quote[/b] (w6em @ Aug. 25 2007,13:39)]Quote[/b] (kc7gnm @ Aug. 24 2007,12:42)]What about all the other folks in that area that are using 440 besides the repeater owners? They should shut down too.
Yep. Let's shut down those garage door openers down around 430. Can't be having garage doors opened and closed in the San Francisco Bay area. That'll impact Natyounal Seacureitee (Dubyah-eze).
This thread is already starting out like most of them do.

Someone posts a news article or makes a comment about something of importance to our Service. Then, someone else (usually from the same cast of characters) makes a snide comment about it or starts nit-picking it to death.

The Pave Paws case is open and shut. Yet, despite that fact, some here STILL persist in trying to turn it into a political forum by regurgitating their own narrow political views on issues that have absolutely NO bearing whatsoever on the outcome of the case or its impact on our Service.

It's often been said the Internet has the power to make people look like fools at the speed of light. Why some people persist in continually putting their fingers to keyboards (and thereby removing all doubt) is quite beyond me.

Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF
But if you read what I wrote, I said that we are acting like we are the primary users in the band. Why not just shut down and deal with it. Folks need to learn that we are secondary in the 440 band and if the primary users say to shut down then we need to say roger and move out.
God how you people over react. The absolute worst case scenario would be that a total of around 165 repeaters -- most in California where there more repeaters than elsewhere in the USA could be forced off the air. Its NOT going to affect anyone else. The military is not going to tell all hams to stop using the band. Just about 165 repeaters.

So, stop making it sound as if the world is coming to an end. Its not -- at least its not for 99% of the U.S. ham radio populace. If it ever happens it will inconvenience less than 1% of the nations ham radio community. Nothing more -- nothing less.

Frankly, I think the story about D-Star sweeping the state of Alabama is far more important than the POSSIBILITY that some repeaters may be driven off the air in the name of homeland security. I was there at the Huntsville Hamfest and I saw first hand as almost every other radio sold was from Icom and marked D-star on the box.

So you guys continue to ne the Seinfeld show of ham radio. Continue to argue as you will over nothing. At least nothing that any of you have any control over.

Me -- I like to look ahead at whats coming. What the next generation of ham radio may be. And if Alabama is any indicator, over the next few years you just might see digital voice supplant FM on 50 MHz and above -- and it may happen a lot faster than any of us ever expected.

de
WA6ITF

(PS: And I do not have a cat!)

kc8pbs
08-26-2007, 08:39 AM
I see two sides:

One that believes that no matter who the primary user is, the benefit to the public by 440 band repeaters in REAL DISASTERS THAT ACTUALLY HAPPEN far outweigh PAVE PAWS 1 minute warning of nuclear annihilation that will never come because the cold war has been OVER for nearly 20 years

And the other side that realizes that Ham radio is on the losing side legally, and we must bend over backwards (or possibly just bend over, period) for the government.

I realize this fight is a lost cause and they are going to put a serious dent in the 440 band before it's over. And you can bet your pants it won't stop at FM repeaters and it will be much further reaching than the 140 mile radius they say right now. But I want ALL of you to have your eyes open and realize what's going on. You only need to ask yourself one question to realize this whole thing is a farce.

~Why is a cold war relic radar system that has been in operation since August 15, 1980 and has coexisted with UHF repeaters for 27 years suddenly so QRM'd by them that they need to wipe them all out for 140 miles in every direction? Same old radar. Same old frequency. What's changed to cause this QRM? Look 3000 miles to the east... The guys that are dismantling their repeaters are pissed because they know this is just an excuse to close down the band, and frankly they have a right to be. Few appreciate being lied to. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

-KC8PBS
Amateur Extra

N0FQN
08-26-2007, 11:57 AM
All I can say is that if a 50 watt repeater can cause enough interference to get there attention then it's a pretty useless system. Imagine if an enemy found out this information and use a several thousand watt signal against it. They must have a front end on the radar sustem as wide as a barn door. Our government at work. Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk and cut it with an axe.

w6em
08-26-2007, 12:44 PM
Quote[/b] (N0FQN @ Aug. 25 2007,05:57)]All I can say is that if a 50 watt repeater can cause enough interference to get there attention then it's a pretty useless system. Imagine if an enemy found out this information and use a several thousand watt signal against it. They must have a front end on the radar sustem as wide as a barn door. Our government at work. Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk and cut it with an axe.
Precisely why I dropped in my comment about garage door opener transmitters. #If the passband of this "new and improved" cold war dinosaur is broad (to say nothing of its antenna to look down into San Francisco as opposed to "up" as its supposed to) then it should be narrowed somewhat.
Even if 70cM completely disappears, their albatross will still have problems from Part 15 radiators. #And, possibly primary users above 450 MHz.

As I've said before and it was just said again, if this archaic system coexisted for 27 years, what's different now? #No longer a Soviet threat. #No longer a Chinese threat (except economically and perhaps via toys and our food supply). #Ah, "new and improved" electronics from a new contractor is the threat. #I see. #:-)

Bill, while I realize its a small problem when examined nationally, it is NOT a small problem to the amateur community in the SF Bay Area. #And, RF is RF. #Digital and analog are the same thing. #Neither D-Star nor APCO-25 could be used either. #Perhaps spread spectrum could solve the problem. #Raise the noise floor and make the sources indeterminate. #That would solve the problem.

Take, for example, a calculated power reduction, borrowed from a letter posted on eham from ARRL to a repeater owner: Reduce output radiated power by more than 50dB!! #Ah, no problem. #Assuming an ERP of 100W, just drop it down to 1 mW. #That's really practical.

A friend, who has a relatively low level UHF repeater at an elevation of about 50 feet near the Pacific Ocean got an ARRL letter. #His response: #Pull the plug. #In between his site in his garage and Beale AFB are two mountain ranges. #The first rising to roughly 1500 feet. #The second to as much as 3000 feet. #But, he still got a letter.

Oh, I almost forgot, Beale's elevation is probably 500 feet above sea level about 150 miles away.

Perhaps Pave Paws should move up to Canuckland. #It could help stem the southward invasion of Canadian Honkers by warming their tail feathers.

w6em
08-26-2007, 01:38 PM
Quote[/b] (kb1sf @ Aug. 24 2007,16:52)]It's often been said the Internet has the power to make people look like fools at the speed of light. #Why some people persist in continually putting their fingers to keyboards (and thereby removing all doubt) is quite beyond me.

Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF
The mirror just shattered......

KB1SF
08-26-2007, 04:05 PM
Quote[/b] (kc7gnm @ Aug. 25 2007,22:48)]Quote[/b] (kb1sf @ Aug. 25 2007,18:52)]Quote[/b] (w6em @ Aug. 25 2007,13:39)]Quote[/b] (kc7gnm @ Aug. 24 2007,12:42)]What about all the other folks in that area that are using 440 besides the repeater owners? They should shut down too.
Yep. Let's shut down those garage door openers down around 430. Can't be having garage doors opened and closed in the San Francisco Bay area. That'll impact Natyounal Seacureitee (Dubyah-eze).
This thread is already starting out like most of them do.

Someone posts a news article or makes a comment about something of importance to our Service. Then, someone else (usually from the same cast of characters) makes a snide comment about it or starts nit-picking it to death.

The Pave Paws case is open and shut. Yet, despite that fact, some here STILL persist in trying to turn it into a political forum by regurgitating their own narrow political views on issues that have absolutely NO bearing whatsoever on the outcome of the case or its impact on our Service.

It's often been said the Internet has the power to make people look like fools at the speed of light. Why some people persist in continually putting their fingers to keyboards (and thereby removing all doubt) is quite beyond me.

Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF
But if you read what I wrote, I said that we are acting like we are the primary users in the band. Why not just shut down and deal with it. Folks need to learn that we are secondary in the 440 band and if the primary users say to shut down then we need to say roger and move out.
And if YOU will re-read what I wrote...I was trying to agree with you.

My comment was directed primarily at those here who doggedly persist in dragging totally irrelevant political issues (such as why the Military needs the radars in the first place, etc.) into the discussion.

WA6ITF is absolutely correct...the case is open and shut and we have little control over the outcome. As secondary users of the band, our job is to simply comply with the request from the Air Force (and directions from the FCC) to clean up our collective acts. So far, both of these agencies have been MORE than cooperative in trying to both understand and accommodate our interests.

However, after reading some of the venom directed at these agencies spewing forth from the keyboards of some of the clowns posting here on this issue, the collective patience of the both the Air Force and the FCC is probably wearing quite thin about now.

Which is why those of us not directly affected by these directives really need to now shut up and sit down.

By persistently hurling catcalls at the authorities over the issue, all we are effectively doing is making ourselves (and our Service) look like spoiled little children and therefore totally unworthy of the billions of dollars in RF spectrum that we now (freely) occupy.

73,

Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF

w6em
08-26-2007, 08:22 PM
Quote[/b] ]However, after reading some of the venom directed at these agencies spewing forth from the keyboards of some of the clowns posting here on this issue, the collective patience of the both the Air Force and the FCC is probably wearing quite thin about now.

Funny, I didn't read any "venom" nor write any. #Observations of fact, sir.

As to patience, taxpayers and citizens are in charge, not bureaucrats anxious to make that extra buck from lobbyists. #And those looking to make "Duke" Cunningham-style standard of living changes.

The Armed Services Committees of both Houses need to look into this kind of unjustified waste. #After the waste-du-jour in Iraq, of course.

Quote[/b] ]By persistently hurling catcalls at the authorities over the issue, all we are effectively doing is making ourselves (and our Service) look like spoiled little children and therefore totally unworthy of the billions of dollars in RF spectrum that we now (freely) occupy.

Nobody's hurling "catcalls," Mr. Canadian amateur. #As to your references to "our" and "we," I must again remind you that you are now north of the 49th parallel and reside in Canada. #Whether you retain your US citizenship or not, the privilege of amateur radio use in the US is not yours by virtue of your location. #Only when and if you venture back to the United States of America to visit. #And, having once been a PR staff officer in the US Air Force is of no consequence to this discussion. #And, as part of your training you were probably to "not question anything from above," right? #Figures. #

As US citizens we have the right and the expectation to question what we believe to be unjustified, wasteful government expenditures. #Pave Paws seems to fit that description only too well by virtue of its supposed purpose.
A purpose that went away when the Cold War did.

This is not the Gestapo. #(Although it looks more like it now than it than it did seven years ago.) #The military and the FCC work for the people, not the other way around.

wa6itf
08-26-2007, 09:03 PM
Hey. Can we go back to a more sane discussion about Sir Andrew Lloyd Webber's keyboard cat Otto? Hes far more interesting than the Pave Paws drivel.

Ive never owned a cat -- nor been owned by one -- but my first dog -- back in Brooklyn -- back in the 1960's -- did figure out how to operate my Clegg 99'er 6 meter transceiver. And he often did it when I was not at home -- until I learned of his escapade and pulled the AC plug before I went off to work.

He was a beagle. His name was Skippy but the crowd in Brooklyn on 50.4 got to calling him S-K-1-P-P-Y.

Any of your pets ever try to go on the air?

de
WA6ITF

n4qa
08-26-2007, 09:37 PM
More amateur activity on 600 meters.
That's a good thing.
This winter promises some interesting DX down there...for those who are allowed to play!

OPEN 600 meters to *ALL* radio amateurs worldwide...*NOW*

or, we *could* just 'study' the band into oblivion...

72,
Bill, N4QA

N5VLZ
08-26-2007, 10:17 PM
I've heard that there have been several pictures of him and his cats going across the keyboards, and around his place. You'd think that would've been a warning!!

#I heard of another story where a ham's cat got up on his computer, which had Echolink running, and started connecting him to all these foreign stations!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

#Another "ham pet" was a pet cockatoo...the bird learned to chirp CQ in CW. The local joke became "that BRD station has a bad chirp on his signal". http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

KC9ECI
08-27-2007, 01:18 AM
Winona County is in MN, not WI...unless the flood moved it this far East.

KB1SF
08-27-2007, 03:05 AM
[QUOTE=Quote ]\
Nobody's hurling "catcalls," Mr. Canadian amateur. As to your references to "our" and "we," I must again remind you that you are now north of the 49th parallel and reside in Canada. Whether you retain your US citizenship or not, the privilege of amateur radio use in the US is not yours by virtue of your location. Only when and if you venture back to the United States of America to visit. And, having once been a PR staff officer in the US Air Force is of no consequence to this discussion. And, as part of your training you were probably to "not question anything from above," right? Figures.

As US citizens we have the right and the expectation to question what we believe to be unjustified, wasteful government expenditures. Pave Paws seems to fit that description only too well by virtue of its supposed purpose.
A purpose that went away when the Cold War did.

This is not the Gestapo. (Although it looks more like it now than it than it did seven years ago.) The military and the FCC work for the people, not the other way around.
I was beginning to wonder when you were going to (again) resort to questioning my birthright, citizenship, military service, patriotism, taxpayer status and worthiness to maintain my US license (or to speak out on issues affecting that license) because you had run out of other, more cogent ideas to share.

It would now appear that we have once again arrived at that point.

I also find it absolutely fascinating that some of the same people now claiming their "rights" as US taxpayers to demand primary status regulatory treatment for the Amateur Service all the while attempting to discredit the need for the Pave Paws radars (in a frequency band where Amateur Radio is, by international regulation, clearly a secondary user) are often the same ones first in line to scream bloody murder when other (secondary) users (like BPL) cause documented interference to primary services like Amateur Radio.

Unfortunately, such impertinent online behavior by those STILL trying their level best to discredit the US Air Force's legitimate complaints over our on-air behavior reminds me of another place and time when, as President of AMSAT-NA, I was part of the team trying to re-negotiate a launch opportunity with the European Space Agency (ESA) for our AMSAT Phase 3-D (later Oscar 40) International satellite.

Unfortunately, our own organization's similarly impertinent online comments directed at that agency came very close to "deep sixing" one of Amateur Radio's premier satellite projects before it even got off the ground.

Some of you may remember that, at that point in the AMSAT P3-D project, ESA had endured a catastrophic launch failure of their first Ariane 5 rocket (Ariane 501). However, what little dynamic telemetry they HAD managed to get during those few brief moments of Ariane 501's flight was strongly indicating that our (then largely completed) Phase 3-D satellite would most likely be subjected to a whole lot more (possibly catastrophic) g-forces on launch than we (or they) had originally anticipated.

That information, in turn, forced us into a complete (not to mention expensive!) re-build of our satellite's main structure…a retrofit that would almost certainly result in making P3-D late for launch on the Ariane 502 flight opportunity that ESA had been holding open for us. To their everlasting credit, ESA waited as long as they possibly could for us to re-design and rebuild our bird. However, when it became absolutely clear there would be no way for us to make the Ariane 502 launch, they dropped us from that manifest, with the caveat that we would be given added consideration for an (unspecified) launch at an (unspecified) later date.

But, unfortunately, rather than taking this information in stride, FAR too many of what I came to call our "AMSAT keyboard commandos" crawled out of the woodwork to make all of us in AMSAT look like arrogant (not to mention ignorant) spoiled brats...and all at the speed of light.

For, despite our widely published, official explanations as to what was really happening (along with our repeated official requests to "be nice" to ESA) many of these clowns persisted in spewing their uninformed hatred and venom at ESA via our AMSAT-sponsored, "free" Internet forum similar to this one (AMSAT-BB). In their narrow minds, it was all ESA's fault for "unceremoniously dumping" P3-D from the AR-502 flight.

The truth is that very few Hams will ever really know how very, VERY close we actually came to NOT having a launch AT ALL for our AMSAT Phase 3-D satellite as a DIRECT result of the handiwork of this arrogant (and largely ignorant) bunch of clowns. Put another way, armed with little more than a computer, a keyboard and an Internet connection, that small, but highly vocal minority very nearly terminated the entire Phase 3-D satellite project then and there for lack of an (affordable) ride to orbit.

That's because when it finally came time for us to sit down across the table from ESA to re-negotiate our terms for a follow-on launch, ESA promptly (and unceremoniously) presented us with a thick stack of paper printouts containing all the verbal garbage directed at them via AMSAT-BB.

They then (quite rightly) asked us the obvious question: "Why should we (ESA) accommodate your organization (AMSAT) with ANY of follow-on launch opportunity…let alone a "bargain basement" one…when it is painfully clear that many in your membership seemingly don't appreciate the generous consideration our organization has ALREADY been extending to you?"

Likewise, the Air Force, as the primary user in the 70 cm band in the United States, is under absolutely NO obligation whatsoever to take ANY of our interests in the Pave Paws issue into consideration when it comes to their stated need for interference-free operation around their radars. By rights, they should now be calling for the immediate cessation of ALL Amateur Radio activity in the areas where documented interference to their systems is occurring.

However, up to now, and despite all the venom being spewed in their direction by the likes of some people posting in forums like these, they have been MORE than accommodating in their dealings with us. This fact, in and of itself, is amazing.

The bottom line here is that, like it or not, individuals from other agencies clearly DO read what we say about them in online forums like these. And, like it or not, those agencies (who are also under NO obligation to in any way accommodate our interests) DO judge us by the words we use when we talk about them. Unfortunately, all that venom simply gives those agencies more "cannon fodder" to use against us (or to question our credibility) during subsequent negotiations.

As secondary users, Amateur Radio (as represented by our ARRL) is already negotiating from a position of non-strength. Why some of us still feel the urgent need to "tug on Superman's cape" by publicly dumping on the one US government organization (the Air Force) that is clearly in a position to shut down ALL Amateur Radio activity on this band in the United States if they so choose is quite beyond me.

And while there are times that "rocking the boat" and questioning governmental authority is necessary and even healthy (surely, many of you have read my ongoing tirades against the FCC over their incentive licensing foolishness)...clearly, and by any measure, this is NOT one of those times!

In light of AMSAT's "lessons learned" from the Phase 3-D launch issue, I strongly believe it would be wise to now continue actively discrediting that ever-shrinking minority of overly vocal individuals (some with their own narrow political axes to grind) who may very well be (unknowingly?) jeopardizing their (and our) own best hopes for Amateur Radio's continued, unhampered access to the 70 cm frequency band in the United States.

That is, it is imperative that we now make it absolutely clear to those negotiating the U.S. Air Force's position that this small, yet highly vocal band of Ham Radio "'keyboard commandos" DO NOT speak for the vast majority of the rest of US Amateurs about the interference some in our Service have been causing to their Pave Paws radars.

Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF

kc7gnm
08-27-2007, 04:25 AM
Very well said Keith. That is the main problem is that folks don't really see how accommodating most of these agencies are. We keep it up and they will throw us all off 440 across the US. Some hams have the mentality that we own all the frequencies we talk on. One other thing, we get to talk on all these frequencies for free while other users have to pay for the spectrum. Be thankful for what we have and quit bellyaching every time a primary user wants his frequency back.

kc8pbs
08-27-2007, 07:10 AM
Actually, the fee we pay is service to our country when it floods, or there is a forest fire, or when a child goes missing, etc. Disasters that strike our country everyday. And we use vhf and uhf repeaters to save lives here in America. That's how we reimburse them for the bandwidth.

We've been waiting for the nuclear missiles for 60 years! They ain't comming! Ronnie Reagan's "Evil Empire" that was gonna nuke us gave up in '91. But the fact that this is a useless dinosaur from 1980 is not the point.

The point is THERE IS NO QRM and there NEVER WAS ANY QRM or else they would have done this 27 years ago when they built these radars!

Do any of you still beleive they put up with QRM for 27 years and they're just now getting around to fixing it? If so, I have a UHF mobile to sell you. Has a simplex range of 150 miles and it works through multiple mountains!

We are Americans. If they said "We need this bandwidth for something we can't disclose," we'd sign off and proudly accommodate their needs. But instead, we're getting a poorly thought out lie about how this radar which worked fine for 27 years is "suddenly" getting QRM'd.

We gotta shut down, but there's NO NEED TO LIE TO US AND MAKE IT SOUND LIKE THIS WHOLE THING IS OUR FAULT.

kc8pbs
08-27-2007, 07:32 AM
On a lighter note, if I were charged with the task of composing something on par with Phantom of the Opera, I too would find a way to blame an unsuspecting kitten for losing the music.

Why can't anyone just tell the truth?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

AC5WO
08-27-2007, 10:42 AM
Quote[/b] (kb1sf @ Aug. 26 2007,20:05)]
...I also find it absolutely fascinating that some of the same people now claiming their "rights" as US taxpayers to demand primary status regulatory treatment for the Amateur Service all the while attempting to discredit the need for the Pave Paws radars (in a frequency band where Amateur Radio is, by international regulation, clearly a secondary user) are often the same ones first in line to scream bloody murder when other (secondary) users (like BPL) cause documented interference to primary services like Amateur Radio...

Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF

Keith, BPL is not a secondary user under FCC rules. BPL equipment is a Part 15 unlicensed unintentional radiator who's manufacturer would normally be required to take immediate action to solve interference problems with a licensed radio user. BPL has all the legal status of the clock oscillators in one's computer. Amateur radio operators are licensed secondary users of 420 to 450MHz with a long history of coexistance with primary military users.

The troubling thing about the Northern California interference to PAVE PAWS situation is the actual problem isn't well defined enough to allow the hams involved to implement a solution. In theory, a combination of power reduction and a null in the antenna pattern should reduce interference, but how does a repeater owner prove they have solved the problem?

I assume that if the combination of transmitter gain, antenna gain/loss in the null, and estimated path loss including terrain and clutter data result in power levels below thermal noise in a specified bandwidth, then that repeater is not a source of interference. Basic cellular RF planning. However, it's kind of tough to do drive testing on a military base to validate the path loss and antenna pattern assumptions.

KB1SF
08-27-2007, 12:56 PM
Quote[/b] (AC5WO @ Aug. 27 2007,03:42)]Quote[/b] (kb1sf @ Aug. 26 2007,20:05)]
...I also find it absolutely fascinating that some of the same people now claiming their "rights" as US taxpayers to demand primary status regulatory treatment for the Amateur Service all the while attempting to discredit the need for the Pave Paws radars (in a frequency band where Amateur Radio is, by international regulation, clearly a secondary user) are often the same ones first in line to scream bloody murder when other (secondary) users (like BPL) cause documented interference to primary services like Amateur Radio...

Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF

Keith, BPL is not a secondary user under FCC rules. BPL equipment is a Part 15 unlicensed unintentional radiator who's manufacturer would normally be required to take immediate action to solve interference problems with a licensed radio user. BPL has all the legal status of the clock oscillators in one's computer. Amateur radio operators are licensed secondary users of 420 to 450MHz with a long history of coexistance with primary military users.

The troubling thing about the Northern California interference to PAVE PAWS situation is the actual problem isn't well defined enough to allow the hams involved to implement a solution. In theory, a combination of power reduction and a null in the antenna pattern should reduce interference, but how does a repeater owner prove they have solved the problem?

I assume that if the combination of transmitter gain, antenna gain/loss in the null, and estimated path loss including terrain and clutter data result in power levels below thermal noise in a specified bandwidth, then that repeater is not a source of interference. Basic cellular RF planning. However, it's kind of tough to do drive testing on a military base to validate the path loss and antenna pattern assumptions.
You bring up some excellent points, George, and I stand corrected...

However, the main thrust of my comment is that our ARRL is currently locked in negotiations with the Air Force and are trying their darnedest to work out a satisfactory agreement that maintains maximum access to the 70 cm band for ALL Hams going forward, not just those residing around the Pave Paws radar sites.

But what the ARRL DOESN'T need right now is for all the ignorant yahoos in our ranks with petty political axes to grind to keep verbally dumping on the Air Force in public forums like these while those sensitive negotiations are ongoing.

Technical issues aside, such inane, politically based blather does absolutely nothing but create an overall unfavorable (spelled "ignorant" and "arrogant") impression of us as a group. But it also creates the potential for a HUGE credibility problem for us as a Service in the eyes of the Air Force.

What's more, based on my own past AMSAT experiences while negotiating similar terms with another large government body (ESA), such unfavorable impressions of our Service only makes it that much harder for the League's negotiators to negotiate terms in our favor.

Or, to put it another way, what these clowns may not realize is that their seemingly innocuous blather may actually be doing REAL HARM to the League's negotiating position in the eyes of the Air Force at the negotiating table.

Talk about shooting ourselves in the foot!

The bottom line here is that all these overly-vocal yahoos now need to put a lid on their petty political blather about the need for Pave Paws…or take it elsewhere...at least until the League's negotiations with the Air Force over the issue are concluded.

73,

Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF

kc7gnm
08-27-2007, 03:37 PM
Quote[/b] (kc8pbs @ Aug. 27 2007,03:10)]Actually, the fee we pay is service to our country when it floods, or there is a forest fire, or when a child goes missing, etc. Disasters that strike our country everyday. And we use vhf and uhf repeaters to save lives here in America. That's how we reimburse them for the bandwidth.

We've been waiting for the nuclear missiles for 60 years! They ain't comming! Ronnie Reagan's "Evil Empire" that was gonna nuke us gave up in '91. But the fact that this is a useless dinosaur from 1980 is not the point.

The point is THERE IS NO QRM and there NEVER WAS ANY QRM or else they would have done this 27 years ago when they built these radars!

Do any of you still beleive they put up with QRM for 27 years and they're just now getting around to fixing it? If so, I have a UHF mobile to sell you. Has a simplex range of 150 miles and it works through multiple mountains!

We are Americans. If they said "We need this bandwidth for something we can't disclose," we'd sign off and proudly accommodate their needs. But instead, we're getting a poorly thought out lie about how this radar which worked fine for 27 years is "suddenly" getting QRM'd.

We gotta shut down, but there's NO NEED TO LIE TO US AND MAKE IT SOUND LIKE THIS WHOLE THING IS OUR FAULT.
You ever think that they may have changed the mission that the pave paws does? That happens all the time. Just because there is no nuclear threat now does not mean the system can be used for something else. Too many conspiracy theorists out there with way too much time on their hands.

KB1SF
08-27-2007, 09:11 PM
Quote[/b] (kc8pbs @ Aug. 27 2007,00:10)]Actually, the fee we pay is service to our country when it floods, or there is a forest fire, or when a child goes missing, etc. Disasters that strike our country everyday. And we use vhf and uhf repeaters to save lives here in America. That's how we reimburse them for the bandwidth.

We've been waiting for the nuclear missiles for 60 years! They ain't comming! Ronnie Reagan's "Evil Empire" that was gonna nuke us gave up in '91. But the fact that this is a useless dinosaur from 1980 is not the point.

The point is THERE IS NO QRM and there NEVER WAS ANY QRM or else they would have done this 27 years ago when they built these radars!

Do any of you still beleive they put up with QRM for 27 years and they're just now getting around to fixing it? If so, I have a UHF mobile to sell you. Has a simplex range of 150 miles and it works through multiple mountains!

We are Americans. If they said "We need this bandwidth for something we can't disclose," we'd sign off and proudly accommodate their needs. But instead, we're getting a poorly thought out lie about how this radar which worked fine for 27 years is "suddenly" getting QRM'd.

We gotta shut down, but there's NO NEED TO LIE TO US AND MAKE IT SOUND LIKE THIS WHOLE THING IS OUR FAULT.
Did it ever occur to you in your infinite wisdom that maybe, just maybe, the Air Force has been putting up with our "QRM" for years...but now, with so many new users (and high powered repeaters) coming on the air, that QRM has increased to intolerable levels to the point where it IS causing harmful interference to their work?

Frankly, from a regulatory standpoint, it's none of our damn business WHAT the military is using this band for, or that they may have started using it again after a long hiatus, or that they have changed how they are using it from how they used to use it, or even that they are (or are not) using it at all.

As I've said, those are all political issues that have absolutely NO bearing whatsoever on the regulatory concerns our Service now faces in the matter.

The bottom line remains that WE are now causing interference to THEIR activities (whatever they may be) and not the other way around. So, in that sense, it very much IS "our fault".

But, rather than helping our representatives address and solve these issues with their Air Force counterparts, by perpetuating such irrelevant political garbage and paranoid conspiracy theories in forums like these, all you and your ilk are doing is digging yourself (and by extension, our Service) into far a deeper credibility hole in the eyes of the Air Force than we are already in.

For the reasons I've suggested earlier, its LONG past time for you (and your like-minded prima-donnas) to CAN such loose talk...at least until the League has finished their delicate negotiations with the Air Force in the matter.

Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF

w6em
08-27-2007, 09:38 PM
Quote[/b] (kc8pbs @ Aug. 26 2007,01:32)]Why can't anyone just tell the truth?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
That's a great question. #The latest DC resignation is an admission he didn't and apparently doesn't know how to......
More of the same old same-o.

Sadly, I suspect those with technical abilities, certainly those willing to stand up and challenge the lies, are few and far between.

Why do I say that? #Well, I think I've seen one SF Bay Area CA commenter here on this last of several PAVE PAWS subject threads. #So, if the 150-odd UHF repeater owners choose to just pull the plug and not challenge the ridiculous, so be it. #Cow touing to demands of a contractor that probably modded the original system such that it performs below the original system and is looking for a scapegoat. #And, we are it...... #Nice and convenient.

If levels of several milliWatts are intolerable in close-in locations, then all Part 15 devices in the 400-430MHz band need to be silenced. #And, as I joked earlier, trying to reel-in hundreds of thousands of garage door openers is going to be quite a project.

Also, these threads are monitored internationallly. #If this supposedly classified system has such an obvious Achille's Heel, it has an unacceptable vulnerability. # The contractor, much like Michael Vick, should return his signing bonus to the US government and return the system to its original configuration.

My apologies to fans of Andrew Lloyd Weber's masterpiece.

N7YA
08-27-2007, 11:10 PM
Cat story? ok.....

In 1985, i was an op in the CQWW test from KL7HFA...it was me (NL7CT at the time), Frank, KL7FH (KL7HNU at the time) and Mike, KL7HFA...ok, those are the players.

It was at Franks house, he had a nice shack out in the garage...a big linear, a shelf above the op position...and a cat. Well, being the mid-80's and we being a bunch of guys playing radio, we had drink and food and just an overall good time. Late into the shift, Mike was working a nice run on 20, Frank and I were stumbling around the shack, Mike had a glass of red wine in front of him just relaxing and handling the crowd...well, Franks cat was up on that shelf and Frank decided it was time for the cat to go...so he reached over Mike and said to the cat "ok, youre out of here"...the cat had different plans, and as soon as Frank grabbed him, the cat sprawled out in defiance and kicked a speaker off the shelf.
It fell right down in front of the rig, bounced off the key board and rolled right into Mikes wine glass...which then landed squarely in Mikes lap, sending wine in the air in a beautiful dark red arc, he was wearing light colored pants too...im laughing right now, sorry...Mike, in the middle of a QSO and live on the mic said "...you are five by ni (crash boom)...FRANK!!" and flew back from the desk. the cat tore across the room and i fell on the floor laughing. visualize in normal speed..."ZL1SD 5901"/"youre out of here cat"/MEOW!!/CRASH/BOOM/clang/"FRANK!!"/meeeeeoowwww/HAHAHAHA!!/..."anyway, you are five nine oh one, Robin...everyone please stand by"


...well, thats how i remembered it anyway. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Another story...same shack, same cat, same shelf, same Frank, not so drunk and no Mike...i was just hanging out at Franks place and he wanted the cat off the shelf, figuring the previous events he gave it another go...told the cat it was time to go, tried to grab it and the cat jumped straight into the air and came down right into the linear (it was a Frank homebrew, big with an open top). Frank wasnt keyed up at the time but it was hot enough for the cat to jump straight UP, and quite high i might add, and really took off...but it had nowhere to go so it just tore around the shack until it had a way out. So thats my ham-related cat stories. I have others like when i had a cat, and i also had a mic, it would jump up in the middle of my qso (they tend to do that) and stuck its nose right onto the screen while im trying to talk...nothing big but a funny visual.
For the record, i havent talked to Mike in a long time, about 10 years, and Frank is still on the air...none of us party like that anymore for the record, particularly Mike... fine ops and good guys, both of them. and credit to the cat, of course. well, thats about it...maybe i should get a cat as shack mascot. hehe.

I could really use a break from the infighting we always tend to do here, ham radio makes me smile...somebody please post your stupid drunken funny stories...or not drunken, its fine. :-) anything funny is good...and screw the topic, it always changes anyway.

Just like Drew Carey said on Whose Line is it Anyway..."...where everythings made up and the points dont matter...thats right, the points are like staying on topic on internet ham forums"...well, thats not a direct quote, but if ANYONE is ham radio material, its Drew Carey!

Remember, funny stuff....ok, GO!!


73...Adam, N7YA

KE4IKY
08-27-2007, 11:36 PM
I'm waiting for someone to come up with a REALLY good joke about a cats pave paws, a keyboard, and a phased array. Someones got to have a good one out there.

Joel

kc7gnm
08-28-2007, 12:31 AM
Quote[/b] (w6em @ Aug. 27 2007,17:38)]Quote[/b] (kc8pbs @ Aug. 26 2007,01:32)]Why can't anyone just tell the truth?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
That's a great question. The latest DC resignation is an admission he didn't and apparently doesn't know how to......
More of the same old same-o.

Sadly, I suspect those with technical abilities, certainly those willing to stand up and challenge the lies, are few and far between.

Why do I say that? Well, I think I've seen one SF Bay Area CA commenter here on this last of several PAVE PAWS subject threads. So, if the 150-odd UHF repeater owners choose to just pull the plug and not challenge the ridiculous, so be it. Cow touing to demands of a contractor that probably modded the original system such that it performs below the original system and is looking for a scapegoat. And, we are it...... Nice and convenient.

If levels of several milliWatts are intolerable in close-in locations, then all Part 15 devices in the 400-430MHz band need to be silenced. And, as I joked earlier, trying to reel-in hundreds of thousands of garage door openers is going to be quite a project.

Also, these threads are monitored internationallly. If this supposedly classified system has such an obvious Achille's Heel, it has an unacceptable vulnerability. The contractor, much like Michael Vick, should return his signing bonus to the US government and return the system to its original configuration.

My apologies to fans of Andrew Lloyd Weber's masterpiece.
Lee,

You just do not get it do you. The military is the primary user and we are secondary users. If they say move then we move out and march. When we become primary users of the 440 band then we can lodge a complaint against the military but until then we just need to shut up and let the folks do there job of negotiating with the Air Force. Keith is right, it is hams like you that think we own every band.

I will give you some examples of some of the stuff that was going on Ft. Huachuca where the Electronic Proving Ground is located. They were trying out some new jammer and it was affecting both 2m and 70cm. I made a complaint with the freq coordinator on post who didn't know that we had primary status on 2m. We got them to get off 2m but I didn't complain one bit about the interference on 440 because we are secondary users there and they are the primary users. You just need to understand the band plan according to the red book. Once they realized they had no business on 2m they shut down on 2m immediately. Now is that too much to ask the folks near the pave paws system to do? I guess we fall under a different set of rules in your world Lee, but as I see it the Air Force has every right to tell the hams to shut down and they should do so immediately.

w6em
08-28-2007, 12:46 PM
Quote[/b] (kc7gnm @ Aug. 26 2007,18:31)]Quote[/b] (w6em @ Aug. 27 2007,17:38)]Quote[/b] (kc8pbs @ Aug. 26 2007,01:32)]Why can't anyone just tell the truth?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
That's a great question. #The latest DC resignation is an admission he didn't and apparently doesn't know how to......
More of the same old same-o.

Sadly, I suspect those with technical abilities, certainly those willing to stand up and challenge the lies, are few and far between.

Why do I say that? #Well, I think I've seen one SF Bay Area CA commenter here on this last of several PAVE PAWS subject threads. #So, if the 150-odd UHF repeater owners choose to just pull the plug and not challenge the ridiculous, so be it. #Cow touing to demands of a contractor that probably modded the original system such that it performs below the original system and is looking for a scapegoat. #And, we are it...... #Nice and convenient.

If levels of several milliWatts are intolerable in close-in locations, then all Part 15 devices in the 400-430MHz band need to be silenced. #And, as I joked earlier, trying to reel-in hundreds of thousands of garage door openers is going to be quite a project.

Also, these threads are monitored internationallly. #If this supposedly classified system has such an obvious Achille's Heel, it has an unacceptable vulnerability. # The contractor, much like Michael Vick, should return his signing bonus to the US government and return the system to its original configuration.

My apologies to fans of Andrew Lloyd Weber's masterpiece.
Lee,

You just do not get it do you. The military is the primary user and we are secondary users. #If they say move then we move out and march. #When we become primary users of the 440 band then we can lodge a complaint against the military but until then we just need to shut up and let the folks do there job of negotiating with the Air Force. #Keith is right, it is hams like you that think we own every band.

I will give you some examples of some of the stuff that was going on Ft. Huachuca where the Electronic Proving Ground is located. #They were trying out some new jammer and it was affecting both 2m and 70cm. #I made a complaint with the freq coordinator on post who didn't know that we had primary status on 2m. #We got them to get off 2m but I didn't complain one bit about the interference on 440 because we are secondary users there and they are the primary users. #You just need to understand the band plan according to the red book. #Once they realized they had no business on 2m they shut down on 2m immediately. #Now is that too much to ask the folks near the pave paws system to do? #I guess we fall under a different set of rules in your world Lee, but as I see it the Air Force has every right to tell the hams to shut down and they should do so immediately.
Yep, we own every band. #You bet. #Our "ownership" reigns supreme. #Did I say that? #No. #Did I suggest, as did some other folks, that there's some untruthfulness at work, to say nothing of outright taxpayer fraud? #You bet I/we did.

How does that translate into "we're better than they are. #Or, I won't lower myself to a discussion of pro and con with them?"

You might ought to look at your copy of Webster's.

As to the Army misbehaving in your example, well, your experience was an example of pure unadulterated stupidity on their part. #Was my comment arrogant? #No, it was an admonishment that they most certainly deserve.

Do they know what an anechoic chamber is? #Probably not. #Not sure you do and I won't bother with an explanation.
Did they realize that not just amateurs, but more important users of the compromised spectrum such as aviation, public safety, and our own FBI could have been compromised by their errant behavior?

If they want to test such things to stop small, wideband, keyboard programmable portable radios that are cheap and readily available from Chinese sources, they should do it in the MiddleEastern test bed, (Iraq) not the middle of Arizona. #Besides, they already have much more powerful gear like that onboard EC-130s, so just keep one of those in the air in the Middle Eastern theatre and problem solved. #Of course, when they fly one of those it probably silences everything for several hundred miles in every direction.

The greatest threat to our soldiers isn't from such toys, but from cell phones that are used by insurgents in detonators. #Jamming the 800MHz spectrum to make cellular phones inoperational would make much more sense. However, from the looks of some of the Motorola HTs used by our troops these days that appear to be 800MHz radios, that was another example of use of a band by our military that shouldn't have been in a battle theatre. #And, if they can't even keep the 60Hz AC on in Iraq, they have NO business having a cellular telephone network.

Perhaps if you had any clue as to propagation, you'd realize how ridiculous the claim of interference to a ground-level antenna with a significant up-tilt would be from a 70cM source 150 miles away.

The example of PAVE PAWS isn't an example of a primary user on a specific frequency, as the rules were intended to describe. #The claim is that ANY signal on an entire band of frequencies by anyone else is unacceptable. #That, my friend, is ridiculous. #Also ridiculous and absurd is a demand for effective radiated power reductions to a level of 2 mW, well below that used by thousands of Part 15 garage door openers in the band of concern. #Let's see what the contractor has to say about all of them, once hams have been silenced.

Perhaps they'll do with PAVE PAWS what they used to do with similar #high powered system near Ron Reagan's ranch in southern CA to address the garage doors: #Turn it on whenever he was in residence and all garage doors within miles of his home wouldn't operate. #:-)

If the hams in the SF Bay Area are all in agreement to abandon UHF operation for an imagined problem, then, so be it. #Although before doing that, perhaps a demonstration would be in order, using amateur 70cM equipment, to see what signal levels would be like from a listening point with an array at ground level 150 miles distant, below two mountain ranges. #Does anyone anymore understand what "substantially below the noise floor and undiscernable" means?

Send Ed Hare, W1RFI and gear, in his new mode of transportation, (and no cats, please) out to CA to conduct a few experiments to see what things really look like.

As others, more astute than me have already mentioned, the passband of radars is quite wide. #As such, signals many dB stronger than ours at 450MHz and above must also effect the system. #Ah, but they're all primary users. #Too bad. #Too d*** bad.

If DoD expended its resources more intelligently, there still wouldn't be a "terrorist number one" riding around the hills of Afghanistan or thousands of acres of cash-crop poppies growing there either, to quote yesterday's headlines.

W9WHE
08-28-2007, 05:01 PM
".....ARRL is currently locked in negotiations with the Air Force and are trying their darnedest to work out a satisfactory agreement that maintains maximum access to the 70 cm band for ALL Hams going forward, not just those residing around the Pave Paws radar sites"


If you are placing your faith in arrl, you are foolish.
arrl has demonstrated, time and again that it lacks mature abillity to handle such matters. Have you forgotten arrl calling FCC commissioners incompetent? Perhaps you have missed arrl's GROSS mis-handling of BPL? How about the 220 Mhz, Antenna and Spectrum Defense Bills?


The bottom line is that the USAF is a PRIMARY user and we are SECONDARY. Either ham repeaters eliminate the interference or they will be shut down. What is there to negociate? Nothing. arrl is just a single point of communications for the USAF. Nothing more.

KB1SF
08-28-2007, 07:54 PM
Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Aug. 28 2007,10:01)]If you are placing your faith in arrl, you are foolish.
arrl has demonstrated, time and again that it lacks mature abillity to handle such matters. Have you forgotten arrl calling FCC commissioners incompetent? Perhaps you have missed arrl's GROSS mis-handling of BPL? How about the 220 Mhz, Antenna and Spectrum Defense Bills?
I'd still prefer to have one "semi-rational" voice (the ARRL) speaking for our interests in these negotiations rather than letting the likes of some of the highly vocal (but nonetheless blatantly ignorant and totally arrogant) "prima donnas" that regularly post here do so.

And leaving such delicate matters to individual repeater owners who, collectively, STILL don't seem to have a flipping clue as to who (or what) they're actually up against will only make the regulatory "hole" they (and by extension, our Service) have dug ourselves into on this issue that much deeper.

Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF

WA5BEN
08-29-2007, 03:04 AM
Quote[/b] (KE4IKY @ Aug. 27 2007,16:36)]I'm waiting for someone to come up with a REALLY good joke about a cats pave paws, a keyboard, and a phased array. Someones got to have a good one out there.

Joel
Sorry, "finicky furry feline foils formation of future phantom" was all I could take.....

My phases are now in disarray....

WA5BEN
08-29-2007, 03:30 AM
Quote[/b] (w6em @ Aug. 27 2007,14:38)]Why do I say that? Well, I think I've seen one SF Bay Area CA commenter here on this last of several PAVE PAWS subject threads. So, if the 150-odd UHF repeater owners choose to just pull the plug and not challenge the ridiculous, so be it. Cow touing to demands of a contractor that probably modded the original system such that it performs below the original system and is looking for a scapegoat. And, we are it...... Nice and convenient.

If levels of several milliWatts are intolerable in close-in locations, then all Part 15 devices in the 400-430MHz band need to be silenced. And, as I joked earlier, trying to reel-in hundreds of thousands of garage door openers is going to be quite a project.

Also, these threads are monitored internationallly. If this supposedly classified system has such an obvious Achille's Heel, it has an unacceptable vulnerability. The contractor, much like Michael Vick, should return his signing bonus to the US government and return the system to its original configuration.
As someone with some experience with ultra-low sensitivity receivers, there is a vast difference between milliwatts from garage door openers and tens of Watts of ERP from repeaters and/or other transmitters. It is probable that a new upgrade has lowered the MDS (Minimum Discernible Signal) to a point that signals that were "in the grass" now stand sufficiently tall to need a "lawn mower".

We need to remember that 440 signals are subject to reflection, refraction, and other phenomena that can take them to unlikely locations. We also need to remember that not all system transmitters and receivers are necessarily co-located.

We cannot say what the purpose of the system is today, and we should not overly speculate. I can think of several good applications, some of which may be quite close to the mark. For most of those, I would trade a couple of small "quiet zones" on (hopefully) a part of 440.

The world is far more dangerous today than it was during the Cold War. Any intelligence officer worth his/her salt -- regardless of his/her country -- will tell you exactly that. I know for a fact (from personal conversations with several Ministers of Foreign Affairs, ambassadors, and generals) that much intelligence information is shared among nations -- including some that would surprise many. (Several Arab "we can't recognize Israel" countries and Israel talk daily, for example.) The types of threats today require some different skills ands technologies to detect and/or track.

I believe a compromise can be worked out, and that forthright people in the amateur community and in government are seeking an effective and workable compromise. Because we ARE secondary, the government did not have to ASK -- they could have simply issued an order. That they did ask, and that they are proceeding cautiously, are very good signs.

w6em
08-29-2007, 12:17 PM
Quote[/b] ]As someone with some experience with ultra-low sensitivity receivers, there is a vast difference between milliwatts from garage door openers and tens of Watts of ERP from repeaters and/or other transmitters. #It is probable that a new upgrade has lowered the MDS (Minimum Discernible Signal) to a point that signals that were "in the grass" now stand sufficiently tall to need a "lawn mower".

Perhaps, Larry, you meant high sensitivity receivers with low noise front ends as opposed to ultra-low sensitivity ones. #A diode's an ultra-low sensitivity receiver. #:-)

For Larry's benefit, from an actual ARRL letter to a repeater owner posted over on eHam: Based on proper identification of the x6xxx 440.xxx MHz machine located at “Sacramento”, the DoD has determined that it is necessary to see a reduction in signal strength of 47 db from this repeater. It is going to be very difficult to achieve this level of reduction, based upon the data (original repeater power, antenna gain, and system losses) you provided for your repeater (or that we received from the repeater coordinating group).

Assuming an original ERP of 100W (based on the old 75W maximum RF power output restriction from the transmitter, and including feedline losses and antenna gain), a reduction of 47 dB would yield an ERP of 2mW from this repeater. #Garage door openers undoubtedly far exceed such ERPs. #Hundreds of thousands of them in the Sacramento and San Joaquin Valleys, let alone near San Francisco, and yet only 125 repeaters with ERPs exceeding such a ludicrous restraint.

I'll say it again. #If the sheer presence of nuisance, low level RF renders this device unable to perform its mission, it needs a redesign and more certainly, a relocation. #If it is indeed designed to "look outward and upward" over the Pacific, then place it where it belongs: #on the Pacific Coast shoreline. #Not 150 miles inland where it must look through all of the 70cM hams and garage door openers that exceed 2mW from it to the ocean.

Let's take an example. A "for instance." #If the UHF signals represent "bogies" on its screen, then, God help the hapless homeowners who happen to press the button to open or close their garage doors. #To say nothing of the touring ham who, passing through on Interstate 5, has no idea that the entirety of SF and Sacramento Valleys being devoid of 70cM activity and that his vehicle may be "targeted" for extinction by a Bush/Cheney monster.

Larry, its a radar. #Radars are used to detect incoming. #Where's the threat? #An airborne missle from an Al Qaeda submarine? #Get real. #With a 15 degree or so uptilt, (the antenna array didn't change, Larry) its still supposed to look UP, not down. #And, apparently for things coming in from the Pacific and from the Atlantic on the other end.

With antennas pointed seaward on both coasts, will it be capable of detecting incoming from the north via Canada or from the Carribean or Mexico across your Texas skies? #No, it won't. #There are only 2 systems, Larry. #

This is, IMO, an albatross from the Cold War that some DoD wheel greased to benefit his hip pocket. #It could have been #Randy "the Duke" Cunningham or Tom "the Arranger" DeLay for all we know. #Who knows.

I will agree with you that the world is a more dangerous place, thanks to sick, drug/religious afflicted kooks than it once was. #But, the real threat from such derelects isn't a sophisticated aerial missle device as this system is supposed to detect. #If our government spent ten percent of what they're wasting in Iraq on shoring up our borders and inspecting incoming cargo, we'd be a lot safer. #Sorry if my comment, if it were to become a reality, would adversely affect your employment by DoD.

W9WHE
08-29-2007, 02:47 PM
"I'd still prefer to have one "semi-rational" voice (the ARRL) speaking for our interests...."


arrl "semi-rational"?
Now that's funny! #If you think PERSONALLY INSULTING FCC commissioners is "semi-rational", you could likely benifit from a Dale Carnegie course in dealing with people. ANYBODY possessing even a modicum of people skills knows that you do not bite (or insult) the hand the feeds (or licenses) you. Evidently, some hams don't possess (or comprehend) such basic people skills.



As for the notion of comprimise...the answer is simple.
National defense should NOT be subject to comprimise. A bunch of chit-chat hobbyists using public spectrum under a SECONDARY allocation, for free, should comprimise. Either ham repeaters stop interfering with national defense operations or shut down. #Get a little perspective....OK? #



W9WHE

W9WHE
08-29-2007, 03:04 PM
W6EM writes:

"Larry, its a radar. #Radars are used to detect incoming. #Where's the threat? #An airborne missle from an Al Qaeda submarine? #Get real."

Where is the threat? How about Iranian subs, Lee? #
You DO KNOW that Iran purchased submarines from the Russians, don't you? #You do know that the Iranian President has promised to "rain fire" down on Iran's enemies, don't you? You do know that Iran is working on nuclear weapons, don't you? #You do know that Iran's president has spent millions of dollars prepairing for the soon to be arriving 12th Imam, signaling universal armegedon and the end of the world....you do know this, don't you, Lee?

W9WHE
Proudly pushing back the lines of ignorance.

KE4IKY
08-29-2007, 04:42 PM
Quote[/b] ]Larry, its a radar. #Radars are used to detect incoming. #Where's the threat? #An airborne missle from an Al Qaeda submarine? #Get real.

There are other things that are UP, not just missiles. Take a look at the radars "secondary" mission.

w6em
08-29-2007, 04:53 PM
Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Aug. 28 2007,09:04)]W6EM writes:

"Larry, its a radar. #Radars are used to detect incoming. #Where's the threat? #An airborne missle from an Al Qaeda submarine? #Get real."

Where is the threat? How about Iranian subs, Lee? #
You DO KNOW that Iran purchased submarines from the Russians, don't you? #You do know that the Iranian President has promised to "rain fire" down on Iran's enemies, don't you? You do know that Iran is working on nuclear weapons, don't you? #You do know that Iran's president has spent millions of dollars prepairing for the soon to be arriving 12th Imam, signaling universal armegedon and the end of the world....you do know this, don't you, Lee?

W9WHE
Proudly pushing back the lines of ignorance.
Jonathan, Jonathan. #You'd do much better arguing your case before an Islamic tribunal.

If you don't think we track subs from satellites (like everything else) then, YOU need to get real. #Rest assured that we know at all times where those subs are. #Why do you think our fleet of P3s now visit Hurricane eyes instead of their former mission?

Oh, I almost forgot. #What about the Kamikaze subs from WWII? #Couldn't a few of those be dusted off and sent searching for Dolphins? #If someone were to break into a Japanese museum and borrow one, well, wow, #that would be a threat. #Maybe we should post sentries to make sure those don't get borrowed.

Your "what-if-manship" is incredible. #Rupert Murdoch has a job waiting for you. #Fair and balanced imagineering.

As for the 12th Imam, conventional wisdom has it that Armenijad is the self-designated troublemaker whose work he thinks will result in the coming of both the 12th Imam and Jesus Christ to bring peace to the world. And, since his expressed desire is to eradicate Israel, perhaps Tel Aviv should take heed. After all, they owe us one (for taking out Saddam). Perhaps they could use a Cold War surplus 70cM radar system. Here, kitty kitty......

KB1SF
08-29-2007, 10:13 PM
Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ Aug. 29 2007,07:47)]"I'd still prefer to have one "semi-rational" voice (the ARRL) speaking for our interests...."


arrl "semi-rational"?
Now that's funny! If you think PERSONALLY INSULTING FCC commissioners is "semi-rational", you could likely benifit (sic) from a Dale Carnegie course in dealing with people. ANYBODY possessing even a modicum of people skills knows that you do not bite (or insult) the hand the feeds (or licenses) you. Evidently, some hams don't possess (or comprehend) such basic people skills.

As for the notion of comprimise (sic)...the answer is simple.
National defense should NOT be subject to comprimise (sic). A bunch of chit-chat hobbyists using public spectrum under a SECONDARY allocation, for free, should comprimise (sic). Either ham repeaters stop interfering with national defense operations or shut down. Get a little perspective....OK?

W9WHE
Well, Jonathan, instead of the League, who do YOU now think ought to be negotiating our case with the Air Force on the issue?

Are YOU prepared to donate your legal skills to our cause in Washington to make our case in front of the Air Force? If not, then I suggest we all best let the League handle it.

Besides, it was the Air Force who first approached the FCC, who in turn, asked the League to intervene with individual hams on the issue. Maybe both organizations feel most comfortable interfacing with us it that way.

Frankly, neither organization has the time nor the resources to chase down every single Tom, Dick and Harry repeater owner that's messing with their radars. As a result, changing our single point of contact (the ARRL) in midstream may not be in our best interests, either.

However, I do wholeheartedly agree with your point that "ham repeaters should stop interfering with national defense or shut down".

The challenge will be to find who is in the best position to convey that message...and then make it stick. Right now, I think we have no other choice but to let the League handle it.

Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF

kc7gnm
08-30-2007, 01:23 AM
Quote[/b] (KE4IKY @ Aug. 29 2007,12:42)]Quote[/b] ]Larry, its a radar. Radars are used to detect incoming. Where's the threat? An airborne missle from an Al Qaeda submarine? Get real.

There are other things that are UP, not just missiles. Take a look at the radars "secondary" mission.
You can't talk to Lee. He thinks he knows everything about pave paws and what it does. He also believes that we own every frequency that our radios can transmit on. Can't talk to Lee because it is like talking to a brick wall.

w6em
08-30-2007, 01:13 PM
Peak Power 1,792 active elements at 325 watts = 82.4 kilowatts (kW)
Duty Factor 25% (11% search, 14% track)
Average Power 145.6 kW
Effective Transmit Gain 37.92 decibel (dB)
Active Radar Diameter 22.1 meters
Frequency 420 megahertz (MHz) to 450 MHz
Radar Detection Range 5,556 kilometers (3,000 nautical miles)
Wavelength 0.69 meters at 435 MHz
Sidelobes -20 dB (first), -30 dB (second), -38 dB (root mean square)
Face Tilt 20 degrees
Number of Faces 2
3 dB Beam Width 2.2 degrees

KE4IKY
08-30-2007, 02:29 PM
Quote[/b] ]Quote (KE4IKY @ Aug. 29 2007,12:42)
Quote #
Larry, its a radar. #Radars are used to detect incoming. #Where's the threat? #An airborne missle from an Al Qaeda submarine? #Get real.


There are other things that are UP, not just missiles. Take a look at the radars "secondary" mission.

You can't talk to Lee. #He thinks he knows everything about pave paws and what it does. #He also believes that we own every frequency that our radios can transmit on. #Can't talk to Lee because it is like talking to a brick wall.


The echos from a brick wall are reasonable. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

KE4IKY
08-30-2007, 03:04 PM
Actually that was a little bit impolite of me...

I posted it because I didn't want the impression that
the systems sole purpose was to detect SLBMs

Increases in processing power were probably intended to aid with the space tracking mission.

Just being a casual observer like myself. I can imagine an attack on a satellite causing a lot of debris to by created, the debris hitting other satellites and causing more debris. I don't know what kind of satellite density would be needed for a chain reaction like that. But even with Chinas direct-ascent-to-kill anti-sat test, I understood the debris could have caused problems.

(i'd love to see a simulation to see effects of this kind of thing)

Joel

WA5BEN
08-30-2007, 11:20 PM
Quote[/b] (w6em @ Aug. 29 2007,05:17)]
Quote[/b] ]As someone with some experience with ultra-low sensitivity receivers, there is a vast difference between milliwatts from garage door openers and tens of Watts of ERP from repeaters and/or other transmitters. It is probable that a new upgrade has lowered the MDS (Minimum Discernible Signal) to a point that signals that were "in the grass" now stand sufficiently tall to need a "lawn mower".

Perhaps, Larry, you meant high sensitivity receivers with low noise front ends as opposed to ultra-low sensitivity ones. A diode's an ultra-low sensitivity receiver. :-)

For Larry's benefit, from an actual ARRL letter to a repeater owner posted over on eHam: Based on proper identification of the x6xxx 440.xxx MHz machine located at “Sacramento”, the DoD has determined that it is necessary to see a reduction in signal strength of 47 db from this repeater. It is going to be very difficult to achieve this level of reduction, based upon the data (original repeater power, antenna gain, and system losses) you provided for your repeater (or that we received from the repeater coordinating group).

Assuming an original ERP of 100W (based on the old 75W maximum RF power output restriction from the transmitter, and including feedline losses and antenna gain), a reduction of 47 dB would yield an ERP of 2mW from this repeater. Garage door openers undoubtedly far exceed such ERPs. Hundreds of thousands of them in the Sacramento and San Joaquin Valleys, let alone near San Francisco, and yet only 125 repeaters with ERPs exceeding such a ludicrous restraint.

I'll say it again. If the sheer presence of nuisance, low level RF renders this device unable to perform its mission, it needs a redesign and more certainly, a relocation. If it is indeed designed to "look outward and upward" over the Pacific, then place it where it belongs: on the Pacific Coast shoreline. Not 150 miles inland where it must look through all of the 70cM hams and garage door openers that exceed 2mW from it to the ocean.

Let's take an example. A "for instance." If the UHF signals represent "bogies" on its screen, then, God help the hapless homeowners who happen to press the button to open or close their garage doors. To say nothing of the touring ham who, passing through on Interstate 5, has no idea that the entirety of SF and Sacramento Valleys being devoid of 70cM activity and that his vehicle may be "targeted" for extinction by a Bush/Cheney monster.

Larry, its a radar. Radars are used to detect incoming. Where's the threat? An airborne missle from an Al Qaeda submarine? Get real. With a 15 degree or so uptilt, (the antenna array didn't change, Larry) its still supposed to look UP, not down. And, apparently for things coming in from the Pacific and from the Atlantic on the other end.

With antennas pointed seaward on both coasts, will it be capable of detecting incoming from the north via Canada or from the Carribean or Mexico across your Texas skies? No, it won't. There are only 2 systems, Larry.

This is, IMO, an albatross from the Cold War that some DoD wheel greased to benefit his hip pocket. It could have been Randy "the Duke" Cunningham or Tom "the Arranger" DeLay for all we know. Who knows.

I will agree with you that the world is a more dangerous place, thanks to sick, drug/religious afflicted kooks than it once was. But, the real threat from such derelects isn't a sophisticated aerial missle device as this system is supposed to detect. If our government spent ten percent of what they're wasting in Iraq on shoring up our borders and inspecting incoming cargo, we'd be a lot safer. Sorry if my comment, if it were to become a reality, would adversely affect your employment by DoD.
Lee,

The reduction is 47 dB at the RADAR site . That is not even remotely the same as reducing output power by 47 dB.

Technical discussions require some level of technical understanding. Technical understanding trumps political and conspiracy nonsense in all cases.

To those of us with experience in this arena, there are some pretty good clues about "what and why". To those who can only see some imaginary conspiracy, nothing can be understood, because their minds are closed to new information. (One is reminded of the blind men arguing about how to describe an elephant.)

w6em
08-30-2007, 11:42 PM
Quote[/b] (WA5BEN @ Aug. 29 2007,17:20)]Lee,

The reduction is 47 dB at the RADAR site . #That is not #even remotely the same as reducing output power by 47 dB.

Technical discussions require some level of technical understanding. #Technical understanding trumps political and conspiracy nonsense in all cases.

To those of us with experience in this arena, there are some pretty good clues about "what and why". #To those who can only see some imaginary conspiracy, nothing can be understood, because their minds are closed to new information. #(One is reminded of the blind men arguing about how to describe an elephant.)
Larry: Yes, technical discussions do deserve some level of technical understanding. Including those that mention low-sensitivity receivers as a cornerstone.

Alright, then, my friend, if a 47dB reduction from a Sacramento repeater at the Cold War behemoth, only about 50 miles away is rudimentary, then, tell us all how that could be accomplished and still maintain a reasonable omndirectional effective radiated power at the repeater site. Most Yagis don't even have that much front to back, let alone side lobe reduction.

Perhaps Texas dBs are different, since low sensitivity receivers there seem to be state of the art..... Do tell us more.

I'm surprised you don't have one of these kitties in Crawford to kill the snakes.

KE4IKY
08-31-2007, 01:22 AM
Quote[/b] ]Assuming an original ERP of 100W (based on the old 75W maximum RF power output restriction from the transmitter, and including feedline losses and antenna gain), a reduction of 47 dB would yield an ERP of 2mW from this repeater.

Ok... What is the [/B]ACTUAL[B] ERP and antenna charecteristics of the system that you are talking about?

How much is the "reasonable" omnidirectional coverage that is needed?

If you expect other people to solve your problems, they'll need a little more technical detail.


The obvious solution, since you seem to need the technical help, is to change bands.