View Full Version : As seen in September QST
On Page 28 of the current issue of QST, there is a full-page ad from Dishtronix, Inc. for their Prometheus DX2400L1 solid state legal limit amplifier. The headline of the ad?
Put FIRE in <span style='color:red'>YOUR</span> WIRE!
I wonder who they are catering to??
Scott NØIU
WB2WIK
08-10-2007, 05:01 PM
Students of Greek mythology? Wasn't Promethius the God of Fire?
VE7DCW
08-10-2007, 05:03 PM
My guess that maybe they're trying to sell an amp to an Amateur radio operator who might be reading QST? maybe http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
73
Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ Aug. 10 2007,17:01)]Students of Greek mythology? #Wasn't Promethius the God of Fire?
Far & away the best Greek God of them all was Dionysus.......Someone I try to base my life after!!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Tom kcØw
Quote[/b] (n0iu @ Aug. 10 2007,11:45)]I wonder who they are catering to??
New ARRL subscribers?
KI4NGN
08-10-2007, 05:18 PM
Quote[/b] (VE7DCW @ Aug. 10 2007,10:03)]My guess that maybe they're trying to sell an amp to an Amateur radio operator who might be reading QST? maybe http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
73
That was my guess also.
Gotta love their FAQ: (http://www.dishtronix.com/prod03.htm)
Quote[/b] ]First examine the specifications of amplifiers with built in tuners. Most tune from 16-150Ω, which equates to a 3:1 SWR. Consider that the Prometheus is rated to operate into a 2:1 SWR at the legal limit, and does not throttle back the ALC until approximately an SWR of 2.5. This is one reason why the Prometheus has 900W of headroom above the legal limit of 1500W. At 2:1 SWR 10% or 150W of power at the 1500W legal limit is reflected. Simply run at 1650W forward power, well within the capability of the Prometheus! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
WB2WIK
08-10-2007, 05:26 PM
Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Aug. 10 2007,10:19)]Gotta love their FAQ: (http://www.dishtronix.com/prod03.htm)
Quote[/b] ]First examine the specifications of amplifiers with built in tuners. #Most tune from 16-150Ω, #which equates to a 3:1 SWR. Consider that the Prometheus is rated to operate into a 2:1 SWR at the legal limit, and does not throttle back the ALC until approximately an SWR of 2.5. #This is one reason why the Prometheus has 900W of headroom above the legal limit of 1500W. At 2:1 SWR 10% or 150W of power at the 1500W legal limit is reflected. Simply run at 1650W forward power, well within the capability of the Prometheus! # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
That is stupid.
I just checked their website now, first time.
Don't think that many hams will be standing in line to drop ten grand on an amplifier -- and it doesn't even cover six meters, like the PW-1 and others do.
Gotta love Free Enterprise, though.
Heck, everyone knows there's only ONE real amplifier... (http://www.davemade.com/photos.htm)
The "dead key" output with a single 3CX1200A7 is listed at 2.5KW but it will "swing" 7KW according to them. Why can't I get my Henry 3K Premier to do 7KW pep... Did Henry rip me off?
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
KE5FRF
08-10-2007, 05:37 PM
When will the roger beep boards and noise makers be advertised? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
"Now YOU can homebrew your VERY OWN roger beep board kit! Easy step by step instructions for only 19.99. Echo/reverb accessory optional!"
Quote[/b] (K3VR @ Aug. 10 2007,12:26)]Heck, everyone knows there's only ONE real amplifier... (http://www.davemade.com/photos.htm)
The "dead key" output with a single 3CX1200A7 is listed at 2.5KW but it will "swing" 7KW according to them. Why can't I get my Henry 3K Premier to do 7KW pep... Did Henry rip me off?
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Does it use a "tooooob with haaaandles"? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
MIV, That's a "BIG 10-4 Good buddy" I sure wouldn't read any deep meaning into the terminology in that ad, either. It is plenty obvious by just skimming the surface ! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
73, Jim
Is Dishtronix, Inc. a subsidiary of Dave Made?
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
73
George
K3UD
K6UEY
08-10-2007, 06:04 PM
Sounds like they have a long way to go to even be in competition with the ACOM 2000A. Most likely the worlds best Amateur amplifier.
It is designed and built overseas, where they still have not traded Quality for quantity. # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
WB2WIK
08-10-2007, 06:12 PM
Quote[/b] (K3VR @ Aug. 10 2007,10:26)]Heck, everyone knows there's only ONE real amplifier... (http://www.davemade.com/photos.htm)
The "dead key" output with a single 3CX1200A7 is listed at 2.5KW but it will "swing" 7KW according to them. Why can't I get my Henry 3K Premier to do 7KW pep... Did Henry rip me off?
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
I was involved with the design & development of the 3K Premier, which started out as the 3K Classic Mk III and was the first Henry amp to incorporate 160m. Boy, did that take a lot of politics to slam that through.
You might note that unlike almost all amps covering 160m, they didn't use a toroid as the (added) plate tank inductor. They just kept insisting on using the air wound inductor, as big and goofy as that turned out to be.
Yes, they ripped you off in two ways:
First, the Henry amp doesn't even use a 3CX1200A7 unless yours is very unusual: They used the YU-121/3CX1200D7, which is actually a better tube.
Second, to "swing to 7 kW PEP" you need to elevate the plate voltage to about 6 kV. Let me know how that works out, and don't forget you'll be exposing yourself to X-rays, so hope you already had all the kids you want.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
WB2WIK/6
Quote[/b] (K3UD @ Aug. 10 2007,11:03)]Is Dishtronix, Inc. a subsidiary of Dave Made?
73
George
K3UD
No, it is subsidiary of "Fat Boy".
Steve, you don't think the FCC has any GOOD reason for limiting hams to 1500 watts, do you ? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
73, Jim
N8CPA
08-10-2007, 06:48 PM
When I get that issue. I am going to rip that page out and send it back to them with a note: "If this kind of language ever passes editorial muster of QST again, I will not renew my membership!"
And I hope I'm not the only one. Allusions to Promethius? I hope they get a Pandora's box of such responses!
N2CFJ
08-10-2007, 06:55 PM
Are those Bird Watts?
G0GQK
08-10-2007, 06:58 PM
Man, ahm gonna have ter get me one of they premethus things, ah need some fire in mah wire, yeah man sure do, ten four.
G0GQK http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
W5HTW
08-10-2007, 06:58 PM
Those ad writers missed a couple:
More audio in the radidio
More sounds to the pounds
This do be da Channel Master
The war has been lost. Minor skirmishes around here and there but they are wasting their time and suffering severe casualties.
Ed
Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ Aug. 10 2007,13:58)]Those ad writers missed a couple:
More audio in the radidio
More sounds to the pounds
This do be da Channel Master
The war has been lost. Minor skirmishes around here and there but they are wasting their time and suffering severe casualties.
Ed
Mo' pounds fo ma duck pluckin channel
Make your signal wall to wall and tree top tall!
The leenyer that not even dave could make...
N8CPA
08-10-2007, 07:16 PM
Advertised like that, that amp is not linear, but Lidear. And we don't need more stinking lids!
I don't understand why every time someone posts information, or wants to discuss amateur amplifiers, it turns into a CB this, CB that thread.........It was funny about the first twenty times done. And that was many years ago here on QRZ or on eHam.
As a veteran of quite a few "upper end" amplifiers, Acom 2000, Yaesu Quadra, Alpha 87 & 99, I find the Dishtronix amplifier mildly interesting. Is there room left in the solid state amplifier market with Yaesu's Quadra Systems & Icom's PW-1 leading the way? Only time will tell. And at a price $10,000, Dishtronix will have a formidable challenge ahead considering how notoriously cheap amateur radio operators really are.
Dishtronix seems to pride itself on the "plenty of headroom" aspect for marketing their amplifier. Nothing wrong with that. There are a number of countries around the world that can legally run more than 1500 watts output. Canada being one.
I will now turn this thread over so some guys can make their tired, worn out CB comments about amateur amplifiers in general.
Tom kcØw
WB6MMJ
08-10-2007, 07:29 PM
Quote[/b] (n0iu @ Aug. 10 2007,09:45)]On Page 28 of the current issue of QST, there is a full-page ad from Dishtronix, Inc. for their Prometheus DX2400L1 solid state legal limit amplifier. The headline of the ad?
Put FIRE in <span style='color:red'>YOUR</span> WIRE!
I wonder who they are catering to??
Scott NØIU
In advertising, people try to get your attention so you will Read/look at their product. They do this in many ways. Just watch TV. How many times have you seen a commercial that is great? Or one that irritates the living daylights out of you? They both get your attention, don`t they?
# #They know what they are doing. Showing, what I call, double commercials, the same product twice in one commercial brake, is a way to get your attention. They just showed that commercial!!!! right?
# #I don`t think that "Put fire in your wire" had anything to do with a certain group on another band. I think they were just trying to get your attention. The word "Fire" has always been able to get peoples attention.
Quote[/b] (KC0W @ Aug. 10 2007,14:25)]Dishtronix seems to pride itself on the "plenty of headroom" aspect for marketing their amplifier. Nothing wrong with that. There are a number of countries around the world that can legally run more than 1500 watts output. Canada being one.
I will now turn this thread over so some guys can make their tired, worn out CB comments about amateur amplifiers in general.
Tom kcØw
All fine and good, but the FAQ section talks about "legal limit" in one sentence, then talks about if the SWR causes your output to be attenuated, simply crank up the output to compensate for the loss.
That, to me, is more than an open invitation to people to run the amp at more than legal limit.
Not to say that doesn't already happen today...
WB6MMJ
08-10-2007, 07:41 PM
Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Aug. 10 2007,12:37)]
Quote[/b] (KC0W @ Aug. 10 2007,14:25)]Dishtronix seems to pride itself on the "plenty of headroom" aspect for marketing their amplifier. Nothing wrong with that. There are a number of countries around the world that can legally run more than 1500 watts output. Canada being one.
I will now turn this thread over so some guys can make their tired, worn out CB comments about amateur amplifiers in general.
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #Tom kcØw
All fine and good, but the FAQ section talks about "legal limit" in one sentence, then talks about if the SWR causes your output to be attenuated, simply crank up the output to compensate for the loss. #
That, to me, is more than an open invitation to people to run the amp at more than legal limit.
Not to say that doesn't already happen today...
Could be that that is what they are doing. I just don`t know.
I do know when trying to sell a product, you want to sell it to as many people as you can.
Again, maybe you are right, maybe not. But it does make me wonder.
W4HAY
08-10-2007, 07:47 PM
...and all the QRPers are rolling around laughing their arses off...
Until someone with "more Fire in THEIR WIRE" stomps all over the QRPer's QSO ! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
WB6MMJ
08-10-2007, 08:07 PM
Something I forgot to say is, numbers can be played with to meet your needs. Just look at what some of the car manufacturers say when it comes to gas mileage and what the real mileage turns out to be. Or the cost of a item before the "hidden costs" appear.
I have seen one amplifier manufacturer say that they are getting well above 66 % efficiency out of their amplifier. Maybe, but I doubt it.
66% has always been the upper limit as far as I know.
The amplifier has to be type accepted by the F.C.C. Lets hope the manufacture didn`t find a loop-hole.
Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ Aug. 10 2007,13:01)]Until someone with "more Fire in THEIR WIRE" stomps all over the QRPer's QSO ! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Yep, Jim. I don't want more fire in someone's wire, I'd like a little brain in some folks head.
kd5kfl
08-10-2007, 08:41 PM
Quote[/b] ]Something I forgot to say is, numbers can be played with to meet your needs. Just look at what some of the car manufacturers say...
"87 pounds more road-hugging weight"
WB2WIK
08-10-2007, 08:50 PM
Quote[/b] (kd5kfl @ Aug. 10 2007,13:41)]
Quote[/b] ]Something I forgot to say is, numbers can be played with to meet your needs. Just look at what some of the car manufacturers say...
"87 pounds more road-hugging weight"
38 mpg combined city/hwy*
[*Provided you're always going downhill.]
"Electric cars consume less energy than gasolene cars"
Yea, right, that is if you DON'T count how much energy was used to charge up the batteries, deliver the batteries to the manufacturing plant from wherever they came from originally, etc. etc.
Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ Aug. 10 2007,15:53)]"Electric cars consume less energy than gasolene cars"
Yea, right, that is if you DON'T count how much energy was used to charge up the batteries, deliver the batteries to the manufacturing plant from wherever they came from originally, etc. etc.
The common argument is that electric vehicles don't idle, so that waste is not there.
And actually, gasoline engines waste a lot because they have to idle.
Hybrids save a lot of gas by implementing "auto stop" which shuts off the gasoline engine while the vehicle is stopped. (Among other things...)
I can see that point. When I was on the daily commute from Hagerstown to Germantown, I probably averaged less than 30 miles an hour, and that was on the expressway ! A good portion of the trip was "stop and go". Of course, if you are "stopping and going", how much does that erode your battery reserve? It takes a lot more energy to get something going again, once it is stopped, than it does just to maintain the forward momentum ! ( High School Physics at work, here ! )
73, Jim
WB2WIK
08-10-2007, 09:32 PM
Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Aug. 10 2007,14:06)]
Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ Aug. 10 2007,15:53)]"Electric cars consume less energy than gasolene cars"
Yea, right, that is if you DON'T count how much energy was used to charge up the batteries, deliver the batteries to the manufacturing plant from wherever they came from originally, etc. etc.
The common argument is that electric vehicles don't idle, so that waste is not there.
And actually, gasoline engines waste a lot because they have to idle.
Hybrids save a lot of gas by implementing "auto stop" which shuts off the gasoline engine while the vehicle is stopped.
Plus, the energy consumed manufacturing and delivering the batteries is miniscule compared with the amount of gasoline a vehicle uses to travel 100,000 miles: Typically 5,000 gallons -- more for powerful or heavier vehicles.
The EIA calculation on how much energy is expended manufacturing, storing, delivering and then recycling the batteries required to accommodate 3,000 charges and power a vehicle 100,000 miles is equivalent to 33 gallons of gasoline. Let's see: 5,000 gallons vs. 33.
And for ongoing usage, with solar power there needn't be any, at all. Here in L.A., houses having solar panels covering 50% or more of their rooftops is very common. In the summer months we generate kilowatts of power 14 hours a day; in the winter, a bit less. But they're always cranking out power, and most have easy surplus to charge up an electric vehicle 365 days a year.
For me, the only drawback to the fully electric vehicles right now is the weight:range tradeoff. To keep the vehicles reasonably light and high-performance, cruising range using commonly available and inexpensive batteries is in the 200-250 mile range. Too short. We need 500 miles.
I think we'll get there, but it may be a few more years.
In the interim, the ongoing DVT on hydrogen fuel cell powered motor vehicles is going full steam ahead at the large R&D facility near Sacramento, funded by all the major auto manufacturers working in cooperation with each other.
It would serve America well to get completely off the oil standard by January 2008. That won't happen, but it's a great goal.
Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ Aug. 10 2007,09:32)]In the interim, the ongoing DVT on hydrogen fuel cell powered motor vehicles is going full steam ahead at the large R&D facility near Sacramento, funded by all the major auto manufacturers working in cooperation with each other.
Are they doing this because they want to be responsible corporate citizens or because they are losing money and market share?
"United we stand, divided we fall"
They have finally realized what the Japanese have known for years. They have been cooperating with each other for quite some time.
It has taken a while, but for the first time in history, sales of foreign cars have surpassed sales of domestic cars.
From the Detroit News August 01, 2007:
"Domestic automakers were outsold by foreign competitors for the first time in history in July..."
Here is (as Paul Harvey would say) the rest of the story: http://www.detnews.com/apps....8010451 (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070801/UPDATE/708010451)
Scott NØIU
WP2XX
08-10-2007, 09:57 PM
Good points, Steve! I look forward to hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles with bated breath, 'cos that appears to be the wave of the future.
A couple of things the hybrid supporters seem to miss, however, are these:
1. The batteries have a finite lifespan and must be disposed of. This is not a product we want in landfills, people, and the current methods of recycling are, to the best of my knowledge, not efficient at all (I don't have statistics to cite at the moment, but I've got 'em around here somewhere).
2. The cost vs. benefit ratio for the owner is a myth. Given the current markup in hybrid vehicles over a similarly equipped conventional gasoline vehicle, the user must drive more than 175,000 miles (on average) before he saves one red cent in fuel costs. That statistic, easily replicated with a half-hour's work with a common calculator, does not include that, before that point is reached, the battery will require replacement. As no warranty of which I am aware covers that replacement, another significant cost is applied to hybrid ownership.
3. The voltages present in the hybrid battery pack complicate a multitude of issues, not the least of which is the safety of passengers and first-responders in the event of a mishap. Training is taking place, but it's pitifully slow.
4. Unfortunately, the economics of hydrogen presents a rather striking catch-22. Rolling out a large fleet of hydrogen-powered vehicles requires an in-place infrastructure for fueling, or no one will purchase them. The fuel-point owner is very unlikely to make the massive investment in hydrogen delivery systems unless he is confident of a ready market for his product. It presents a chicken vs. egg argument unless government acts as the catalyst (pardon the pun) with a clear mandate and staggeringly massive subsidy. (Big government, of course, is another debate entirely. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ) Moreover, there is compelling evidence which indicates the commonest methods of generating fuel hydrogen is woefully less efficient than just burning petrol.
The debate rages on...
WB2WIK
08-10-2007, 10:15 PM
NQ3X your points are valid but all apply to "hybrid" vehicles, not electric-only ones.
No way it takes 175,000 miles to break even on fuel costs with an all-electric, because the fuel cost using commercial mains already calculates out to a few cents per mile for the electric -- and zero per mile if you use solar power or other free alternative energy; so, with all-electric, the savings begin with the first mile you drive.
The batteries are very recyclable and that's ongoing since laptop batteries are recycled at a rate of thousands per day in the U.S. alone, right now. They contain no lead, which is the most toxic element contained in common car batteries. Li-Ion batteries have another neat trait: They discharge
very slowly if they're kept cool. At 0C, their depletion discharge rate is about 2% per year. Unfortunately, they discharge much more rapidly when they're very warm and at 40C the rate is around 30% per year or so.
The key to making such interim technology vehicles economical is to use free electric power; the sun and the wind are making it all the time and it appears to be an infinitely renewable resource.
KE5FRF
08-10-2007, 10:41 PM
Gee fellas, ya think we might try to get this thread back on topic and post some more blatantly obnoxious CB bashing comments?
KE5FRF
08-10-2007, 10:45 PM
BTW, this thread is impressive. It takes shots at CBers, the ARRL, and QRO operators all in one shot. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Good show y'all, I'm truly amazed. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
KL7AJ
08-10-2007, 10:45 PM
Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 10 2007,15:41)]Gee fellas, ya think we might try to get this thread back on topic and post some more blatantly obnoxious CB bashing comments?
Glad you noticed this, too. I was horrified to see that this thread was degenerating into an intelligent, rational exchange of ideas. This must be stopped!
Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ Aug. 10 2007,16:32)]
Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Aug. 10 2007,14:06)]
Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ Aug. 10 2007,15:53)]"Electric cars consume less energy than gasolene cars"
Yea, right, that is if you DON'T count how much energy was used to charge up the batteries, deliver the batteries to the manufacturing plant from wherever they came from originally, etc. etc.
The common argument is that electric vehicles don't idle, so that waste is not there.
And actually, gasoline engines waste a lot because they have to idle.
Hybrids save a lot of gas by implementing "auto stop" which shuts off the gasoline engine while the vehicle is stopped.
Plus, the energy consumed manufacturing and delivering the batteries is miniscule compared with the amount of gasoline a vehicle uses to travel 100,000 miles: Typically 5,000 gallons -- more for powerful or heavier vehicles.
The EIA calculation on how much energy is expended manufacturing, storing, delivering and then recycling the batteries required to accommodate 3,000 charges and power a vehicle 100,000 miles is equivalent to 33 gallons of gasoline. #Let's see: 5,000 gallons vs. 33.
And for ongoing usage, with solar power there needn't be any, at all. #Here in L.A., houses having solar panels covering 50% or more of their rooftops is very common. #In the summer months we generate kilowatts of power 14 hours a day; in the winter, a bit less. #But they're always cranking out power, and most have easy surplus to charge up an electric vehicle 365 days a year.
For me, the only drawback to the fully electric vehicles right now is the weight:range tradeoff. #To keep the vehicles reasonably light and high-performance, cruising range using commonly available and inexpensive batteries is in the 200-250 mile range. #Too short. #We need 500 miles.
I think we'll get there, but it may be a few more years.
In the interim, the ongoing DVT on hydrogen fuel cell powered motor vehicles is going full steam ahead at the large R&D facility near Sacramento, funded by all the major auto manufacturers working in cooperation with each other.
It would serve America well to get completely off the oil standard by January 2008. #That won't happen, but it's a great goal.
Was it Honda or Toyota who just tested their 100%battery powered car?
Don't get more than 8 miles from an outlet!
If the Hybrids are going to be the savior of the planet why has Honda canceled plans for a Hybrid Accord?
Answer, because they will go broke fixing them under warantee.
... but QST still has problems with advertisers giving antenna gain in dBi? Wow, nothing like high standards.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
W5TTP
08-10-2007, 11:37 PM
You guys have it all wrong. They are advertising to the older hambonies. Wearing a prostesis (sp?) might just be the thang to put the fire in your wire. Is it April yet?
Numbers to ya'all.
W0LPQ
08-11-2007, 12:23 AM
You can probably hear it on the 3875 group in the midwest.
WA9SVD
08-11-2007, 12:46 AM
Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ Aug. 10 2007,10:37)]When will the roger beep boards and noise makers be advertised? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
"Now YOU can homebrew your VERY OWN roger beep board kit! Easy step by step instructions for only 19.99. Echo/reverb accessory optional!"
Those are upcoming construction projects in QST scheduled for October and November 2007. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
"How to improve the bird-watt swing of your YasuKenCom by clipping two wires!" "You too can get 200 bird-watts from your old rice-box radidio by making a few simple modifications! " http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif etc.!
WA9SVD
08-11-2007, 01:19 AM
Quote[/b] (n2nh @ Aug. 10 2007,16:11)]... but QST still has problems with advertisers giving antenna gain in dBi? Wow, nothing like high standards.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
Only when gain figures can't be verified by antenna modeling, or dBi/dBd is not specified. (Unless they have changed that policy again.) Many manufacturers claim far more than they can deliver in terms of gain, so the ARRL is very particular about antenna ads.
W8ZNX
08-12-2007, 08:53 AM
Hello
get real boys
iv known Mike N8WFF for over 10 years
he is a straight shooter regular guy
good op
fire in the wire
has been a long standing line/joke on 3875
for nearly 20 years
Jim kj9t the weak mobile from Chicago
who hangs out on 3875 has been
using " fire in the wire "
line as long as ive known him
if you do not want a full legal plus limit
solid state amp
nobody is twisting your arm
but to equate this with cb amps
is a insult
Alpha has been making plus full legal limit amps for years
and how many ops do you hear on the air
using Hank 4 K export models
mac
KA0USE
08-12-2007, 04:21 PM
yer posta say it like this.....
fahr in th' wahr.
like mater in "cars" talks.:laugh: http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
W0LPQ
08-12-2007, 04:34 PM
Those who do not know Jim,KJ9T are missing a lot. Same for the rest of the 3875 guys. Mac is aware, as Steve has stated many times, the capability of an amp to work without stress to power supply or final tube is something people do not comprehend.
An amp like this one will run cool, without any issues at all for hours. Many will not.
Bill, W0LPQ/9
WA9SVD
08-13-2007, 03:08 AM
Quote[/b] (W0LPQ @ Aug. 12 2007,09:34)]Those who do not know Jim,KJ9T are missing a lot. Same for the rest of the 3875 guys. Mac is aware, as Steve has stated many times, the capability of an amp to work without stress to power supply or final tube is something people do not comprehend.
An amp like this one will run cool, without any issues at all for hours. Many will not.
Bill, W0LPQ/9
Exactly. And it is the responsibility of each and every operator to ensure they are not exceeding the legal limit, regardless of the "capability" of their equipment to do so. Extra "headroom" in an amp, particularly a solid state amp, goes a long way to providing reduced distortion, as well as longer life of the active components in an amp. (READ: The output transistors, whether bipolar or FET technology, will last longer and run cooler if not pushed to their limit, but rather have "headroom.")
Well, let me see. Hummmmmmmm
This amplifier is the ONLY legal limit solid state amplifier that has been type accepted by the FCC. Hummmmmm
Well now, where are all the Jap engineers and others? I sure don't see any other manufacturer that has anything on the market and as far as the price, if u can afford a 7800 u certainly shud be able to afford the "PREMIER LEGAL LIMIT PLUS SOLID STATE AMPLIFIER" to compliment it in the next contest.
Ignorance is bliss. Eat ur hearts out.[B]
W0LPQ
08-13-2007, 01:21 PM
Well Jim, some people get it ... some don't. The same parallel can be made for power supplies and your typical 100W radio. How many run a 20A supply when the manual plainly states max is 22-26A. Why do they care? Same for mobile operation and the voltage drops below 12.5V and the radio begins to FM. Blame the radio. They run a 20A supply and complain when the power supply limits and the radio glitches.
I'd rather an amp run without stress, and a radio to be operated at its specified voltage and have current to spare.
Bill, W0LPQ/9
Quote[/b] (KJ9T @ Aug. 13 2007,00:31)]Well, let me see. #Hummmmmmmm
This amplifier is the ONLY legal limit solid state amplifier that has been type accepted by the FCC. #Hummmmmm
Well now, where are all the Jap engineers and others? #I sure don't see any other manufacturer that has anything on the market and as far as the price, if u can afford a 7800 u certainly shud be able to afford the "PREMIER LEGAL LIMIT PLUS SOLID STATE AMPLIFIER" to compliment it in the next contest.
Ignorance is bliss. #Eat ur hearts out.[B]
THP's HL-2.5kfx will be approved soon. Have no fear about that.
The rest of solid state amps are 1kw and less, because there isn't really much difference between 1kw and 1.5kw.
Incidentally, there are multikilowatt solid state transmitters in the commercial/broadcast arena made by Harris and others. #
So the technology is there. #Ham use isn't a priority, I guess.
EDIT: Spoke too soon! The 2.5kfx was apparently approved by the FCC. I guess I know what's going to replace/supplement my AL-811H. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Quote[/b] (W0LPQ @ Aug. 13 2007,08:21)]Well Jim, some people get it ... some don't. #The same parallel can be made for power supplies and your typical 100W radio. #How many run a 20A supply when the manual plainly states max is 22-26A. #Why do they care? #Same for mobile operation and the voltage drops below 12.5V and the radio begins to FM. #Blame the radio. #They run a 20A supply and complain when the power supply limits and the radio glitches.
I'd rather an amp run without stress, and a radio to be operated at its specified voltage and have current to spare.
Bill, W0LPQ/9
That's true, but still doesn't explain why they tell you to run 150w over legal limit to make up for loss caused by a mismatch in your antenna.
How do the FCC rules treat that anyway?
Can I run more than the legal limit due to losses in my feedline, so that my antenna sees 1500w?
There's a reason you can buy a car that will go 2x the legal speed limit and more. That's because they know some people will go 2x the legal speed limit... Same I believe is true with amps.
Sure, there's headroom to worry about, and continuous duty. But I'm sure some folks will give it an extra kick when riley aint watching...
Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Aug. 13 2007,06:32)]THP's HL-2kfx will be approved soon. Have no fear about that. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
I am fully aware of the solid state amps in the broadcast industry and have seen them in service first hand. I was very impressed by the plug and play setup as to the replacement of modules while the xmtr is in service.
As far as the THP amp, I am sure that they will wrk the bugs out of it and it will receive type acceptance. The 1KW model was a wrk in progress when they sent it out. I hpe the big one is a wrking unit when it finally hits the market.
The Prometheus amp received type acceptance on the first try. Hummmmmmmm It also operated at 1.5KW output at Dayton 24/7 the last two years running. Not a bad track record. Oh well, others will try to emulate success. The Japs hv bn copycats in all manufacturing fields. Let's hpe that their big amp is better quality than the 1KW unit that they sent out initially. I had two friends that purchased those amps and promptly returned them as a wrk in progress. OOPS
Quote[/b] (KC0W @ Aug. 10 2007,12:25)]I don't understand why every time someone posts information, or wants to discuss amateur amplifiers, it turns into a CB this, CB that thread...
Google the term 'minority bashing'...do a little reading...and you'll have a pretty good idea of the whys...
Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Aug. 13 2007,10:04)]Can I run more than the legal limit due to losses in my feedline, so that my antenna sees 1500w?
Sure, there's headroom to worry about, and continuous duty. But I'm sure some folks will give it an extra kick when riley aint watching...
Go for broke and buy an Ulvin Tremendus IV (10kW CCS) or one made by that Aussie outfit which is no-tune and rated about the same power output.
Life is too short for QRO-p !
AC0UU
08-13-2007, 11:15 PM
Quote[/b] (nq3x @ Aug. 10 2007,10:57)]Good points, Steve! #I look forward to hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles with bated breath, 'cos that appears to be the wave of the future.
A couple of things the hybrid supporters seem to miss, however, are these:
1. #The batteries have a finite lifespan and must be disposed of. #This is not a product we want in landfills, people, and the current methods of recycling are, to the best of my knowledge, not efficient at all (I don't have statistics to cite at the moment, but I've got 'em around here somewhere).
2. #The cost vs. benefit ratio for the owner is a myth. #Given the current markup in hybrid vehicles over a similarly equipped conventional gasoline vehicle, the user must drive #more than 175,000 miles (on average) before he saves one red cent in fuel costs. #That statistic, easily replicated with a half-hour's work with a common calculator, does not include that, before that point is reached, the battery will require replacement. #As no warranty of which I am aware covers that replacement, another significant cost is applied to hybrid ownership.
3. #The voltages present in the hybrid battery pack complicate a multitude of issues, not the least of which is the safety of passengers and first-responders in the event of a mishap. #Training is taking place, but it's pitifully slow.
4. Unfortunately, the economics of hydrogen presents a rather striking catch-22. #Rolling out a large fleet of hydrogen-powered vehicles requires an in-place infrastructure for fueling, or no one will purchase them. #The fuel-point owner is very unlikely to make the massive investment in hydrogen delivery systems unless he is confident of a ready market for his product. #It presents a chicken vs. egg argument unless government acts as the catalyst (pardon the pun) with a clear mandate and staggeringly massive subsidy. (Big government, of course, is another debate entirely. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ) #Moreover, there is compelling evidence which indicates the commonest methods of generating fuel hydrogen is woefully less efficient than just burning petrol.
The debate rages on...
I dont' know about that, but my shop van is in bad need of a tune up - this, the FORD dealer tells me will cost between 1400 and 1900 dollars to perform. #This vehicle as compared to older style engines - does not have your typical distributor, rotor and plug wires as you would expect. #Instead each spark plug has it's own ignition coil - this makes 8 of them at 140.00 each. #They will not change only the bad one at this time, but require that I have all 8 changed because they will go bad at some time in the future - what a farce at that price. #The plugs need to be replaced, of course, and they want to change the fuel filter - no problem. #The job will realistically take 8 hours to complete they say - because you have to diss-assemble the whole top of the engine to get the coils off the top of the spark plugs. This is the biggest cost issue by far. #But 900 to 1000 just for parts for a tune up? #Who would buy something like this if they were told this in this up front? #Some is really engineering labor costs into the engines today. #Give me a 66 chevy van any day. #I can fix that one myself! #The car manufacturers need to wake up and start making cars that run better and require less work to repair again. #With all this fancy new technology which costs soo much to repair when it breaks, the gas mileage is still low. #There is no trade off to benefit the owners.
Just my opinion - and how did this discussion get so far off topic? #LOL
Steve
AB8YY
ok, I replied without reading to the end of the thread - it DID get back to the original subject so since I can't delete this post, I'll just apologize for the comment at the end, even though it was somewhat of a joke.
N8WFF
08-13-2007, 11:43 PM
I have a question for the "experts"...
I have a 75 ohm output broadcast transmitter which I connect to a tuner that has a 10% loss, which connects to a 50 ohm perfectly resonant antenna. I must run 1650 watts from the transmitter to the tuner. The wattmeter in the feedline at the base of the antenna reads 1500W after the loss in the tuner. Am I legal?
Question 2.
I run 1650 watts forward power and have 150 watts of reflected power on my wattmeter. Can someone explain to me what reflected power is, and more importantly where it goes in an amplifer, and how it distorts the voltage waveforms on the drains of the transistors? #If you run a thermal rise test on the heatsink, does it indicate an increase in power of exactly 150 watts? #What is the net power or ERP (effective radiated power for those not in the know) to the antenna?
Question3. Can someone explain to me what all those ERP rules are all about?
Question 4. As a third generation ham, with radio operators as far back as 1900 in my family, I remember a different sort of ham radio. I have been an SWL for 37 years, a ham for 30 years, and have 23 years experience as an electrical engineer. Does anyone remember when radio operators conducted themselves as gentleman, always keeping in mind that what we expressed on the air (or in print for that matter) is #received by hundreds of potential new members of our dying hobby?
Question 5. Have any of the critics visited Dayton Hamvention to see a Prometheus running at 1500W CW constant for the entire 3 days of the show? It was there in booth 570, doing just that 2005, 2006, and at booth 572 this year, 2007.
Question 6. Commercial quality equipment costs between $5-10 per watt, and does not include the power supply. Dishtronix gives you the power supply and the amplifier at under $4 per watt. #I wonder why they do that? Curiously enough a top of the line certain vacuum tube amplifier is priced similarly.
Question7. Can anyone explain to me what that Constitution thing is about free speech? What exactly is so "offensive" about the advertising? #Did the company make any false claims in the ad? Why not impune the engineering of the product, rather than the ad?
Question 8. Dishtronix exhibited the Prometheus from 2002 on at Dayton and didn't sell a one. They promissed they would not sell it until the technology is ready and perfected. Now they announce to the world they are taking orders. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone in the industry did their homework and did not release a product until it is perfected? #Why don't companies do that? #Why does this Dishtronix company insist on so much quality and on doing things better than anyone else? #Why don't they just go for the almighty dollar?
Question 9. I wonder how much technology in other amplifiers was copied from the information Dishtronix has freely disseminated for the last 5 years? I wonder how many of the "legal limit" amplifiers will be found to be infringing on the patents that Dishtronix has filed for?
Question 10. I wonder why no one has bothered to call or write Dishtronix about all of this? #I have it personally from the president that no one has called to complain.
Finally, to the "gentlemen" that I do not know personally who like to demean my investment and years of hard work, who hates my advertising so much as to call me a "lid", thank you for helping me to decide to run the Fire ad next month in QST. #You might consider that advertising is very expensive - #look at the rate cards - around $4K per page. This advertising pays for the magazine you enjoy reading, and also helps the ARRL do meaningful things for our hobby - #like fight BPL and defend our spectrum space that commercial entities dream of possessing. I look forward to the fullfillment of your promise to resign your ARRL membership and hopefully from the hobby in general.
Regarding 6 meter coverage, I wonder why the other "amplifiers" all derate the power on 6 meters? What is it about that ferrite material that limits low frequency power handling ability as a trade off against high frequency performance? And what is it about that 1/16 wavelength limit on transmission line transformers and the relationship to winding length, and hence the number of turns that can be put on a core, and that little thing called flux density that is inversly proportional to the number of turns on the core? Why is it that cores overheat and go through the Curie point (which means they no loose inductance and no longer can impede current flow)?
Could it be that Dishtronix does not offer 6 meters in their product because even though it can do 6 meters at reduced power of 1000W, it does not meet the design specification of making legal limit plus at all frequencies, and to be flat on drive within 1dB (meaning +/- 5 watts).
Simply put - #you get what you pay for. When you buy my products, you get more than you pay for. It isn't always easy being the best and brightest kid in the class. It's lonely at the top when all anyone wants to do is tear you down. Do something productive with your life. If you don't like my products, go develop something better. I did. Put your money where your microphone is.
When you are on the air, or in print, please remember that you are a represenative of yourself, your family, your hobby, and your country.
-Steven M. Dishop, N8WFF. President, Dishtronix, Inc.
Are those rhetorical questions?
Or, as the owner of Dishtronix, are you unsure of your ten posted questions answers?
Tom kcØw
Quote[/b] (KJ9T @ Aug. 13 2007,12:08)]The Japs hv bn copycats in all manufacturing fields. #Let's hpe that their big amp is better quality than the 1KW unit that they sent out initially. #I had two friends that purchased those amps and promptly returned them as a wrk in progress. #OOPS
Yeah...
The owners of those Toyotas, Hondas and Nissans, (all copies of great American technology...) must be all dissatisfied with those pieces of junk!
A friend of mine is ready to give up on his Honda. it started to break down after only 330,000 miles!! What a POS piece of JUNK! Don't good ol' <s>Mexican</s> American made autos last longer than that?
I own a Honda, maybe I should trade it in for an ultra reliable Ford, Chevy or Dodge?
How about my dad's old Sharp TV set. That thing is about as old as me.
Or my mom's Sony TV set.
But I digress...
Quote[/b] (N8WFF @ Aug. 13 2007,18:43)]I have a question for the "experts"...
I have a 75 ohm output broadcast transmitter which I connect to a tuner that has a 10% loss, which connects to a 50 ohm perfectly resonant antenna. I must run 1650 watts from the transmitter to the tuner. The wattmeter in the feedline at the base of the antenna reads 1500W after the loss in the tuner. Am I legal?
Question 2.
I run 1650 watts forward power and have 150 watts of reflected power on my wattmeter. Can someone explain to me what reflected power is, and more importantly where it goes in an amplifer, and how it distorts the voltage waveforms on the drains of the transistors? #If you run a thermal rise test on the heatsink, does it indicate an increase in power of exactly 150 watts? #What is the net power or ERP (effective radiated power for those not in the know) to the antenna?
Question3. Can someone explain to me what all those ERP rules are all about?
Question 4. As a third generation ham, with radio operators as far back as 1900 in my family, I remember a different sort of ham radio. I have been an SWL for 37 years, a ham for 30 years, and have 23 years experience as an electrical engineer. Does anyone remember when radio operators conducted themselves as gentleman, always keeping in mind that what we expressed on the air (or in print for that matter) is #received by hundreds of potential new members of our dying hobby?
Question 5. Have any of the critics visited Dayton Hamvention to see a Prometheus running at 1500W CW constant for the entire 3 days of the show? It was there in booth 570, doing just that 2005, 2006, and at booth 572 this year, 2007.
Question 6. Commercial quality equipment costs between $5-10 per watt, and does not include the power supply. Dishtronix gives you the power supply and the amplifier at under $4 per watt. #I wonder why they do that? Curiously enough a top of the line certain vacuum tube amplifier is priced similarly.
Question7. Can anyone explain to me what that Constitution thing is about free speech? What exactly is so "offensive" about the advertising? #Did the company make any false claims in the ad? Why not impune the engineering of the product, rather than the ad?
Question 8. Dishtronix exhibited the Prometheus from 2002 on at Dayton and didn't sell a one. They promissed they would not sell it until the technology is ready and perfected. Now they announce to the world they are taking orders. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone in the industry did their homework and did not release a product until it is perfected? #Why don't companies do that? #Why does this Dishtronix company insist on so much quality and on doing things better than anyone else? #Why don't they just go for the almighty dollar?
Question 9. I wonder how much technology in other amplifiers was copied from the information Dishtronix has freely disseminated for the last 5 years? I wonder how many of the "legal limit" amplifiers will be found to be infringing on the patents that Dishtronix has filed for?
Question 10. I wonder why no one has bothered to call or write Dishtronix about all of this? #I have it personally from the president that no one has called to complain.
Finally, to the "gentlemen" that I do not know personally who like to demean my investment and years of hard work, who hates my advertising so much as to call me a "lid", thank you for helping me to decide to run the Fire ad next month in QST. #You might consider that advertising is very expensive - #look at the rate cards - around $4K per page. This advertising pays for the magazine you enjoy reading, and also helps the ARRL do meaningful things for our hobby - #like fight BPL and defend our spectrum space that commercial entities dream of possessing. I look forward to the fullfillment of your promise to resign your ARRL membership and hopefully from the hobby in general.
Regarding 6 meter coverage, I wonder why the other "amplifiers" all derate the power on 6 meters? What is it about that ferrite material that limits low frequency power handling ability as a trade off against high frequency performance? And what is it about that 1/16 wavelength limit on transmission line transformers and the relationship to winding length, and hence the number of turns that can be put on a core, and that little thing called flux density that is inversly proportional to the number of turns on the core? Why is it that cores overheat and go through the Curie point (which means they no loose inductance and no longer can impede current flow)?
Could it be that Dishtronix does not offer 6 meters in their product because even though it can do 6 meters at reduced power of 1000W, it does not meet the design specification of making legal limit plus at all frequencies, and to be flat on drive within 1dB (meaning +/- 5 watts).
Simply put - #you get what you pay for. When you buy my products, you get more than you pay for. It isn't always easy being the best and brightest kid in the class. It's lonely at the top when all anyone wants to do is tear you down. Do something productive with your life. If you don't like my products, go develop something better. I did. Put your money where your microphone is.
When you are on the air, or in print, please remember that you are a represenative of yourself, your family, your hobby, and your country.
-Steven M. Dishop, N8WFF. President, Dishtronix, Inc.
This is what the FCC says:
TITLE 47--TELECOMMUNICATION
COMMISSION (CONTINUED)
PART 97--AMATEUR RADIO SERVICE--Table of Contents
Subpart D--Technical Standards
Sec. 97.313 Transmitter power standards.
(a) An amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power
necessary to carry out the desired communications.
(b) No station may transmit with a transmitter power exceeding 1.5
kW PEP.
This is what ARRL says:
At all times, transmitter power must be the minimum necessary to carry out the desired communications. Unless otherwise noted, the maximum power output is 1500 watts PEP. Novice/Technicians are limited to 200 watts PEP on HF bands. Geographical power restrictions apply to the 70 cm, 33 cm and 23 cm bands; see The FCC Rule Book for details.
What exactly does this mean? #I take it to mean that the transmitter output can never exceed 1500w. #Not the transmitter minus feedline/antenna system losses. #The output of the transmitter must not exceed 1500w. #If you disagree, please tell me why I am wrong. #I am always willing to learn from a more experienced ham.
Furthermore, the constitution only shields you from Government censorship of your speech. Last I checked, QRZ.com is the private property of Fred Lloyd, AA7BQ.
I, nor anyone here is part of the Government, and we are not censoring your speech! #We are also free to criticize anything for any reason, within Fred's rules on Fred's message board. #
You speak about creating a godo impression for newcomers to the hobby. #Please do practice what you preach. #Giving them the wrong impression, that it is okay to simply bump up the power beyond the legal limit to compensate for an inefficiency in their antenna system is not the way to elmer new hams.
Re: Question 5. #Yes, I've visited your boothin 2006 and 2007. #Nice amp.
Re: Question 9. #That is between you, your lawyers and their lawyers. #
Re: Question 10. #It doesn't bother me. #I've used "fire in the wire" many times. #However, the part about running 1650w to compensate for a mismatch and 150w of reflected power had me wondering... is it legal? Or is it not? #Or is it a subtle way of saying that your amp can exceed the legal limit? #Auto manufacturers don't tell you to exceed the legal speed limit, yet they advertise their cars as being fast, and show people driving really fast in them, and driving dangerously... #I see a similar tone here. #I could be wrong, but it is my right to have that view.
Nice amp, but be careful about how you represent yourself in print. #As can be seen, you don't want to create the wrong impression about your product.
Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Aug. 13 2007,18:26)]However, the part about running 1650w to compensate for a mismatch and 150w of reflected power had me wondering... is it legal?
Come on RJ, GROW UP. There are so many big commercially manufactured amps out there that put the Bird to 2500W+ that this is a mute point. Head room in a solid state amp makes for a clean signal. IMD way down. If the operator chooses to operate any amp illegally, Riely can address the issue. Let's quit nit-picking and move on.
Nobody cares. :-)
Tnx, Jim
Quote[/b] (KJ9T @ Aug. 14 2007,00:57)]
Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Aug. 13 2007,18:26)]However, the part about running 1650w to compensate for a mismatch and 150w of reflected power had me wondering... is it legal?
Come on RJ, GROW UP. #There are so many big commercially manufactured amps out there that put the Bird to 2500W+ that this is a mute point. #Head room in a solid state amp makes for a clean signal. #IMD way down. #If the operator chooses to operate any amp illegally, Riely can address the issue. #Let's quit nit-picking and move on.
Nobody cares. #:-)
#Tnx, Jim
You GROW UP and stop dodging the issue.
I asked a question, and all you do is change the issue.
I am fully aware that other manufacturers - QRO, Ameritron etc manufacture amplifiers legal for sale in the US that can exceed the limit. #That is not the question.
I know about headroom, I know about IMD, I know about overkill.
But that is NOT what I am asking!
Is it legal or is it not legal to put 1650W in the feedline because 150w of power is reflected back?
Just answer the question.
I repeat, just answer the g_d damn question.
Quote[/b] ]If the operator chooses to operate any amp illegally, Riely can address the issue.
Yeah... And we all know what that means. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
WB2WIK
08-14-2007, 03:44 PM
We have a general problem with test and measurement when it comes to RF power, especially at higher power levels (beyond milliwatts) because the only way to 100% accurately measure power is to dissipate it and measure the resulting thermal rise. That one measurement is accurate above all others because it allows you to adjust the load resistance to maximize dissipation (thus assuring a perfect power match to the transmitter) and it measures all output products irrespective of waveform and distortion.
Everything else is a compromise.
I can set my transmitter/amplifier to 1500W CW power into a perfect 50 Ohm dummy load and then without retuning anything, plug it into a mismatched antenna and read 3000W output power on my Bird 43, with 2000W reflected. Is my output really 3000W? 1000W? Somewhere in between?
The "legalities" are semantics because almost nobody has provision to accurately measure power in a mismatched system.
Although I would not encourage the wording in the Dishtronix literature and would indeed recommend they change it to something more appropriate that does not recommend running excess power simply because the load is mismatched -- when almost nobody has the means to assess what their output power truly is under such conditions -- this is a bit nit-picky.
Anybody can buy Bird stuff, that doesn't make for accurate measurements unless you're making measurements in a 50 Ohm system -- and then, their rated accuracy is 5% of full scale. Which means measuring 50W on a 1 kW element/scale can result in a measurement error of +/- 50W; thus, a true 50W could read anything from "zero" to 100W and it would be perfectly in line with the stated accuracy...
WB2WIK/6
Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ Aug. 14 2007,08:44)]The "legalities" are semantics because almost nobody has provision to accurately measure power in a mismatched system.
almost nobody has the means to assess what their output power truly is under such conditions -- this is a bit nit-picky.
WB2WIK/6
Calm Down, RJ. I think that Steve stated the case very well. Interpretation of FCC rules is not ur job or mine.
Power measurement into a reactive load is practically impossible.
Let it go. :-)
Quote[/b] (KJ9T @ Aug. 14 2007,13:42)]
Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ Aug. 14 2007,08:44)]The "legalities" are semantics because almost nobody has provision to accurately measure power in a mismatched system.
almost nobody has the means to assess what their output power truly is under such conditions -- this is a bit nit-picky.
WB2WIK/6
Calm Down, RJ. #I think that Steve stated the case very well. #Interpretation of FCC rules is not ur job or mine.
Power measurement into a reactive load is practically impossible. #
Let it go. #:-)
Again, you dodge the issue.
It's quite clear what your agenda is.
In other words, "don't ask don't tell..."
And you guys are talking about how ham radio was better in the "good old days?"
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Aug. 14 2007,12:10)]In other words, "don't ask don't tell..."
And you guys are talking about how ham radio was better in the "good old days?"
...for instance, when a certain 4-lander got popped by the FCC for running 25 kW on 75M ...
Let's not be CHILDISH here. Get on with ur life.
Quote[/b] (KJ9T @ Aug. 14 2007,15:23)]Let's not be CHILDISH here. Get on with ur life.
So I ask a simple question and instead of a straight answer all I get are insults in return?
Who's being childish?
Maybe you ought to consider politics. It certainly fits.
WB2WIK
08-14-2007, 08:55 PM
Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ Aug. 14 2007,12:10)]In other words, "don't ask don't tell..."
And you guys are talking about how ham radio was better in the "good old days?"
I don't think it's changed much at all, other than there's a lot less homebrewing going on today.
Some hams have run very illegal power levels since there was ever a rule drafted to regulate transmitter power. Back in the good old days, power was restricted by input power measurement only, which is probably good since almost nobody had a way to measure output power. And "1 kW DC input" on AM was a lot more power than anybody can run today (in the U.S.) legally, because this allowed 4 kW PEP input power for AM. Using Class C, this could yield 3 kW PEP output power on AM, and about a 750W carrier.
Hams often exceeded that, if they homebrewed or used converted broadcast transmitters as many did.
It resulted in very, very few enforcement actions because if people behaved on the air, a few dB extra power didn't matter much. Behavior, or lack of it, is what draws attention, not signal strength, which could always come from a better antenna.
As early as 35 years ago, Alpha sold the 77SX amp with two 8877s and a power supply that could handle it. Wonder how many hams ran "legal limit" power with that? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
WB2WIK/6
Even in Trinidad we had hams exceeding the limit. #Of course I wasn't a ham back then, nor was I even alive...
But there was a guy named Cyril Balwah. #I think he was 9Y4VT, and he was old enough to have a VP4T prefix (Trinidad and Tobago only became 9Y after the country became independent.)
Anyway, he used a pole pig and I don't know what else. #He would run at least 10kw. #He used to take out power to the whole neighborhood on occasion from what I heard... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Another ham who did the same thing was John Frost, 9Y4LQ.
Both he and Cyril went to my high school. #(A lot of 9Y hams went there apparently.)
I have respect for those guys because they designed and built their own QRO stuff, knew how to use it, and knew how it worked.
But today any ham can just take a wad of cash and go buy an amp that is capable of more than the legal limit, doesn't know how to use it properly and basically waste a good amp, and even if they get it on air, have no idea how it works. They basically push it and push it to squeeze every last watt out of their amp, above and beyond the legal limit too. #Those guys I have NO respect for.
