View Full Version : Attempting to contest on 17 meters
Yesterday I was about to answer a CQ on 17 when another op beat me to it. Fine I can wait my turn.
The op made his contact and then asked for his serial number and IOTA number.
The guy told him he was not in a contest and that contesting was not allowed on the WARC bands.
The new op still did not seem to get it.
If the radio was not "plug and play" he would have never got the radio on the air.
KA4DPO
07-29-2007, 01:13 PM
That's rediculous. Just one more example of the Cracker Jack licensing system we have now.
WA9SVD
07-29-2007, 01:31 PM
Well, I'd file a complaint with the sponsoring organization (RSGB, I believe.) If a participating target station (an Island station) was operating outside the IOTA rules, they should be disqualified, as should the stations that contact them on any band not specified.
However, the IOTA seems to be considered a "Special Event," rather than a contest. (A contest by any other name...)
If the WARC bands are NOT specifically exempted form this "special event," then neither station was actually in violation of any rule or regulation. Special event stations are usually not limited to the "old" bands.
I'd check with the RSGB's IOTA rules, and if operation on the WARC bands is not prohibited, then file a complaint with RSGB, and perhaps send a copy to your ARRL Section Manager. If enough hams are upset about use of the WARC bands, then something might be done, but even DXpeditions sometimes use WARC bands, depending upon propagation conditions, and THAT can cause even greater crowding and problems than a special event station.
If the WARC bands are specifically excluded from the special event, then definitely file a complaint with the sponsoring organization and report BOTH stations.
If it was just some dim bulb who was NOT answering an actual IOTA Island station, then just forward his call to the IOTA sponsor stating he was attempting to make "contest" contacts on the WARC bands.
ADDED:
Here's the actual rule from the RSGB:
"3. BANDS AND MODES 3.5, 7, 14, 21 and 28MHz, CW and SSB. IARU band plans should be observed, with CW contacts being made only in the recognised CW ends of the bands (see RSGB Yearbook and similar sources, for recognised IARU band plans). Contest-preferred segments should be observed, no operation to take place on 3560 - 3600, 3650 - 3700, 14060 - 14125 and 14300 - 14350kHz.
W5HTW
07-29-2007, 01:46 PM
I have a question. Is contesting on the WARC bands ILLEGAL? Or is it by "gentlemen's agreement" that it isn't done? Or is it by a bandplan that isn't supported by regulations? Is it world wide, or only in the USA, or only in Region II?
I don't do contests, so I don't know the rules. I have welcomed the opportunity to escape contests by shifting to 30 meters or 17 meters, so I'm glad for the policy or rule or whatever.
Anyone enlighten me, and direct me to a specific rule, regulation or policy concerning this? Or am I going to have to pull up Part 97 and find it?
Thanks
Ed
Quote[/b] (W7WV @ July 29 2007,08:55)]Yesterday I was about to answer a CQ on 17 when another op beat me to it. Fine I can wait my turn.
The op made his contact and then asked for his serial number and IOTA number.
The guy told him he was not in a contest and that contesting was not allowed on the WARC bands.
The new op still did not seem to get it.
If the radio was not "plug and play" he would have never got the radio on the air.
"Not allowed" isn't part of it; there's a gentleman's agreement to leave the WARC bands alone during contests, that's all.
Added in edit; its hard to find, but appears to be an ARRL contest committee rule:
"he MSC wants to implement a DXCC Award for 30 Meters but feels it must first deal with Standing Order #18, which was put in place when the WARC bands first put in use. We need to clarify the rule or modify it. The award would be retroactive to include all contacts on this band. (But that is going to mean cards must be checked at HQ -- 10-year rule)"
Source (http://www.arrl.org/announce/reports-0107/msc.html)
This dates back to when most or many of us didn't have WARC bands on our rigs.. That condition long since gone, it may not be long before the agreement ends too.
Added in edit:
The IOTA Contest Rules (http://www.contesting.co.uk/hfcc/rules/riota.shtml), FWIW, say:
"3. BANDS AND MODES 3.5, 7, 14, 21 and 28MHz"
So for IOTA, it isn't allowed.
Cortland
KA5S
N8CPA
07-29-2007, 02:03 PM
I love contesting. #But #hope the WARC bands remain contest free.
Now--that said--I think the op may have been activating an island specifically for that band. That can happen at any time, so it's not really a contest, but a variety of Dx pursuit.
WA9SVD
07-29-2007, 02:03 PM
Ed,
It's a "policy" of the ARRL, and MOST contest sponsors, by "gentleman's agreement," that the WARC are specifically excluded from contests.
Special event stations, however are often acting "on their own," and set their own rules. SE stations often DO operate on the WARC bands.
The question is whether the IOTA competition, which has hundreds of participating Island stations on the air is considered a special event or an actual contest.
But there is no law or FCC regulation exclusive to the WARC bands concerning contest activity; it's all by mutual agreement.
Having just checked the RSGB page, their rules state that the 3.5, 7, 14. 21, 1nd 28 MHz bands are to be used, so they DO consider this a contest and the WARC bands are NOT to be used.
In this case, W7WV should file a complaint with RSGB IOTA committee and give the specific callsign of the offending station.
IMHO, if such is done, the station should be completely disqualified; if the contest sponsors DO disqualify stations for violation of the rules, other stations would be less llikely to do so in the future. Lack of knowledge of the rules is really no excuse; if a person is participating in a contest, it IS their responsibility to know and abide by the rules.
Having re-read the original post, I believe that the station calling CQ was in fact not calling CQ-test just CQ.
Then, he is answered by another station (apparently a newbee); who then asks the original CQ'ing station for a signal report, QSO and IOTA number.
The CQ station, who is apparently on an island, then responds negatively to the caller, explaining that he is not in a contest.
Do I have the gist of this?
The newbee was in the wrong when he asked for contest exchange information from the original station. It is only a "gentleman's agreement" about no contesting on the WARC bands, but it is written into most, if not all contest rules.
The newbee probably made an incorrect assumption based on something overheard. The original station probably included a location in his CQ or it was indicated by the station callsign prefix.
Mr. newbee, on hearing the "island prefix" added 1 + 1 and got 4.
No biggie, mistakes happen all the time. It would not count as a valid contest QSO anyway because of the aforementioned contest rules.
I guess the core of the problem is the inability of our newbee to understand that the "island station" was not interested in providing the newbee contest information?
Well, that just fits in with the general lack of knowledge that our latest crop of licensee's appear to have. It should not come as a surprise that many of these folks don't know diddley about daily operation on HF.
If we accept the fact that posters here on QRZ represent only the tip of the iceberg, and based on some of the stooopid posting seen here recently, it is no surprise that stupid things are happening on HF.
Posters who: ...
Well, I was going to run a list, but that would be a really long list. You know what I mean.
The overall dumbing down of this service continues daily and the QRZ poster's are only a small indication of how bad its getting.
So, sorry if some dum-dum tries to contest on a WARC band, or runs his Palomar 250 on twenty meters, or his Galaxy zx1000 on ten, or tries to use an attic dipole and a kilowatt and complains about RFI,or can't understand why he can't get a break on 75 meters, or why he gets no response to his AM CQ calls on 28.085.
Or, or,or or AAARRRGGHHH!!
OK I feel better now.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Gary
WA9SVD
07-29-2007, 03:31 PM
Glad you feel better... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Newbie or not, it should be the responsibility of anyone entering a contest (or seeking contest points) to be familiar with the rules of that contest. thus our "friend" (it wasn't mentioned if it was a newbie operator) shouldn't have been on a WARC band looking for contest points in the first place...
And yes, it's easy to make a mistake; sometimes even the best of us can forget what band we are on (as long as we stay INSIDE the band and operate within our privileges. I remember talking to an old friend one time and he was wondering why his 20 meter beam didn't seem to be working as well as usual, and I had to remind him we had switched to 15 Meters where he only had a dipole!) http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
But a good operator is going to pay attention to details such as that. An occasional oversight is one thing, as with our would-be contester. But particularly once informed by the first station that WARC bands aren't for contests, he should have changed bands or settled on making friendly easy-paced contacts.
WA3KYY
07-30-2007, 07:05 PM
Quote[/b] (N8CPA @ July 29 2007,10:03)]I love contesting. #But #hope the WARC bands remain contest free.
Now--that said--I think the op may have been activating an island specifically for that band. That can happen at any time, so it's not really a contest, but a variety of Dx pursuit.
If it needed a serial number for the contact, it was, in all likelihood, a contest contact. Disallowed by the RSBG rules for the IOTA event. If he was simply activating an island on 17M no serial number would be needed.
ve2nsm
07-30-2007, 08:30 PM
Quote[/b] (wg7x @ July 29 2007,11:11)]Having re-read the original post, I believe that the station calling CQ was in fact not calling CQ-test just CQ.
Then, he is answered by another station (apparently a newbee); who then asks the original CQ'ing station for a signal report, QSO and IOTA number.
The CQ station, who is apparently on an island, then responds negatively to the caller, explaining that he is not in a contest.
Do I have the gist of this?
I guess you and me are the only ones who get this right. By the original thread, some guy on an island was calling CQ (normal) and a newbee answered the call thinking it was a contest.
The more I re-read it, the more it becomes clear.
K4GUN
07-30-2007, 10:08 PM
I'm sorry, I must have missed this, but how do we know the operator was a newbie and was using PNP equipment?
Quote[/b] (k4gun @ July 30 2007,15:08)]I'm sorry, I must have missed this, but how do we know the operator was a newbie and was using PNP equipment?
Because...he was eating a banana on the train!
ab1ga
07-30-2007, 11:43 PM
Quote[/b] (ka5s @ July 29 2007,08:49)]Added in edit; its hard to find, but appears to be an ARRL contest committee rule:
"he MSC wants to implement a DXCC Award for 30 Meters but feels it must first deal with Standing Order #18, which was put in place when the WARC bands first put in use. We need to clarify the rule or modify it. The award would be retroactive to include all contacts on this band. (But that is going to mean cards must be checked at HQ -- 10-year rule)"
I have no strong opinion for or against contests, or for the use of 17 and 12 meters for that matter, but I'm leery of expanding the use of 30 meters for contesting and heavy DXing.
If I remember correctly, we have to make sure we don't interfere with the fixed service here in Region 2, which is one reason we're limited to 200 W maximum.
I worry that contesting and DXpeditions, and the competitive juices they seem to generate, will lead to a level of concentrated activity and operations above maximum allowed power that -will- interfere with those other services, which we don't really need. I even think the dreaded RM-11306 made provision for "semi-automated" operations in that band!
Thirty meters is a small band at 50kHz wide total, and it's a bit touchy in the regulatory arena, but it has some very nice propagation. I'd be happiest if it stayed a reduced power low-signal-bandwidth kind of place, say less than 200 Hz in the lower half and less than 500Hz in the upper half. Call it a "safe haven" for the operationally timid, if you will. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
ab1ga
07-30-2007, 11:44 PM
Quote[/b] (ka5s @ July 29 2007,08:49)]Added in edit; its hard to find, but appears to be an ARRL contest committee rule:
"he MSC wants to implement a DXCC Award for 30 Meters but feels it must first deal with Standing Order #18, which was put in place when the WARC bands first put in use. We need to clarify the rule or modify it. The award would be retroactive to include all contacts on this band. (But that is going to mean cards must be checked at HQ -- 10-year rule)"
I have no strong opinion for or against contests, or for the use of 17 and 12 meters for that matter, but I'm leery of expanding the use of 30 meters for contesting and heavy DXing.
If I remember correctly, we have to make sure we don't interfere with the fixed service here in Region 2, which is one reason we're limited to 200 W maximum.
I worry that contesting and DXpeditions, and the competitive juices they seem to generate, will lead to a level of concentrated activity and operations above maximum allowed power that -will- interfere with those other services, which we don't really need. I even think the dreaded RM-11306 made provision for "semi-automated" operations in that band!
Thirty meters is a small band at 50kHz wide total, and it's a bit touchy in the regulatory arena, but it has some very nice propagation. I'd be happiest if it stayed a reduced power low-signal-bandwidth kind of place, say less than 200 Hz in the lower half and less than 500Hz in the upper half. Call it a "safe haven" for the operationally timid, if you will. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Sorry if this message appears twice, my computer may have hiccuped.
I like banana's!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
WA9SVD
07-31-2007, 06:33 AM
Quote[/b] (ab1ga @ July 30 2007,16:44)]Quote[/b] (ka5s @ July 29 2007,08:49)]Added in edit; its hard to find, but appears to be an ARRL contest committee rule:
"he MSC wants to implement a DXCC Award for 30 Meters but feels it must first deal with Standing Order #18, which was put in place when the WARC bands first put in use. We need to clarify the rule or modify it. The award would be retroactive to include all contacts on this band. (But that is going to mean cards must be checked at HQ -- 10-year rule)"
I have no strong opinion for or against contests, or for the use of 17 and 12 meters for that matter, but I'm leery of expanding the use of 30 meters for contesting and heavy DXing.
If I remember correctly, we have to make sure we don't interfere with the fixed service here in Region 2, which is one reason we're limited to 200 W maximum.
I worry that contesting and DXpeditions, and the competitive juices they seem to generate, will lead to a level of concentrated activity and operations above maximum allowed power that -will- interfere with those other services, which we don't really need. I even think the dreaded RM-11306 made provision for "semi-automated" operations in that band!
Thirty meters is a small band at 50kHz wide total, and it's a bit touchy in the regulatory arena, but it has some very nice propagation. I'd be happiest if it stayed a reduced power low-signal-bandwidth kind of place, say less than 200 Hz in the lower half and less than 500Hz in the upper half. Call it a "safe haven" for the operationally timid, if you will. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Sorry if this message appears twice, my computer may have hiccuped.
GA:
The WARC bands are excluded from contests sponsored by almost ALL legitinate organizations, but it's by "gentleman's agreement," not any law. IARU recommendations are just that, and while there may be "standing orders" in the IARU or ARRL, they don't carry the weight of law, they are just policy.
But in the original case, if our "friend" asked for a serial number, it means he WAS looking for contest points on a band not authorized for the IOTA contest. If he was (seemingly) soliciting contacts for contest credit, he shouldn't have been on a WARC band to begin with, and should not have asked for information needed for that contest.
Now there's nothing wrong with asking for an IOTA number; many people "collect" IOTA contacts and there are awards from RSGB that are apart from the "contest" weekend. (Not unlike WAS, WAC, or some of the CQ magazine awards. And special event stations and some DXpeditions also use the WARC bands, but those are usually not TOO troublesome, since they will use only one (or a few) frequencies on a specific band at any one time.
Let's bear in mind that the Rules for this one aren't the FCC's, only the contest organizers'. Not knowing them isn't part of the dumbing down of Amateur radio, the decline of America, motherhood (or apple pie), just carelessness. I had to go to the IOTA site to see what they were (but then, I wasn't in the contest).
Cortland
KA5S
http://home.mchsi.com/~rkstover/graphics/LicBoxTop2.jpg
Just to clarify, the station calling CQ was not on an island and never said he was. He was just calling a very normal CQ. At no time did he say he was on an island or give his an island number.
As near I can tell, the station that answer red his CQ knew something about the ongoing IOTA rules and perhaps had been on 20 meters working some of those stations. The answering station may not have even realized what band he was on when he answered the CQ for that matter. He just assumed that this was another contester, for lack of better words.
As far as the ops new status I don't know. I can only guess that he was new based on his lack of knowledge when he kept trying to get information regarding the IOTA contest.
I did not bother to write the name of the answering station down or check the ULS to see when or how long he had been licensed nor did I care.
I do occasionally hear stations trying to contest on 17 and I also hear them get run off on a regular basis.
I don't know whether it's a lack of knowledge about contesting on WARC or if they don't care.
Not being the least bit interested in contesting myself I wish they would just leave the WARC bands alone.
N8UZE
07-31-2007, 01:06 PM
To the best of my knowledge, all contest sponsors specify the bands to be used in the contest and the WARC bands are not allowed by contest rules. If someone were to submit a log containing contacts for a WARC band, as a minimum all those contacts would be disallowed as they don't meet the rules. A high number of invalid/disallowed calls will generally get an entrant disqualified.
k0dxc
07-31-2007, 01:07 PM
I thought everyone new that only 160, 80, 40, 20, 15, 10M was for contesting and everything else was for people to enjoy QSOing on.
WA3KYY
07-31-2007, 01:20 PM
Quote[/b] (k0dxc @ July 31 2007,09:07)]I thought everyone new that only 160, 80, 40, 20, 15, 10M was for contesting and everything else was for people to enjoy QSOing on.
You forgot 6, 2, 1-1/4 and all the other VHF and up bands. Contests take place on those also.
WA9SVD
07-31-2007, 01:35 PM
Quote[/b] (k0dxc @ July 31 2007,06:07)]I thought everyone new that only 160, 80, 40, 20, 15, 10M was for contesting and everything else was for people to enjoy QSOing on.
THAT isn't in the question pool, and it's NOT apparent to those that merely memorize to get their license. That's one of the problems with the present licensing/testing system; nobody has to read or actually LEARN anything about Amateur Radio before getting a license. Standard operating procedures and "The Amateur Code" are for OT's and OF's now, anyway. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Those of us that were around when the WARC bands were first created DO know they are off limits to contesting, by agreement of the contest sponsors.
But anyone participating in a contest has a responsibility to KNOW the rules for that contest.
Deliberately Violating the contest rules isn't just a matter of carelessness, particularly if an operator is informed, in this case, that the WARC bands are off limits to contesting, yet he/she persists in attempting to extract contest information. Form WV's description, the operator in question didn't seem to accept the admonition that he/she was operating on a band not authorized for contesting. If that's truly the case, it's a reckless disregard for other Amateur Radio Operators.
K4GUN
07-31-2007, 02:04 PM
Quote[/b] (aa9ya @ July 30 2007,15:36)]Quote[/b] (k4gun @ July 30 2007,15:08)]I'm sorry, I must have missed this, but how do we know the operator was a newbie and was using PNP equipment?
Because...he was eating a banana on the train!
Ah... now it all makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up. I was concerned that new operators who got their licenses under the current rules were all being lumped into a category without any basis. Now I see how it all fits togeather. Damned no-code generals and extras! LOL http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ July 28 2007,09:31)]Newbie or not, it should be the responsibility of anyone entering a contest (or seeking contest points) to be familiar with the rules of that contest....
Not in today's world, where we teach "License CLasses" where the goal is NOT to teach theory, practices or anything else - but to give answers to test questions.
We are getting what we collectively ask for.
Quoth WR8Y: Quote[/b] ]Not in today's world, where we teach "License CLasses" where the goal is NOT to teach theory, practices or anything else - but to give answers to test questions.
Well, I can only speak about classes that I've given/sponsored, but in our recent last two General class sessions, I wanted to specifically avoid the "tesch the test" mantra that we hear so often.
We covered the material in detail, and did not teach only the test answers. Anyone who sponsors "instant Tech/Gen" classes is doing a great dis-service to the Amateur community and the class participants.
Having said all that, there are still people who just don't get it. Some of them seen not to want to learn new ways and are stuck in the old "CB-Style" rut.
That's too sad.
73 Gary
PS: I still like banana's