All hams should read this

[KB1NBN]

After reading quite a few posts here on QRZ, i have noticed that a few of older hams seem to be putting down the new 0 WPM HF operators. In my opinion, someone who has passed their test for HF after the no code law passed, is just as much a ham as someone who got their license 40 years ago. Lots of people have been giving newer HF hams a bad rep. It is often thought that because we have not passed a CW test, that we must not know as much about radio as other hams do. In some cases, i find this to be quite the opposite. I also find it interesting that, when talking on HF, i am asked how old i am, i give them my age, 13. Their attitude changes and they start talking to me like i don't know what i am talking about. Don't judge someone on the radio using their age or call sign or class.

Remember, some of these people who you talk to are the future of ham radio. treat them with respect.

This article is not to put anyone down, or make anyone angry. i have been a ham for just almost 2 years. This article is simply here to hopefully provoke some thought into this subject. I realize that there are a huge amount of hams that don't do any of this kind of things, but there has been enough here on the forum, that i decided to post this.

have a good weekend!

With peace,

Chris Craig
KB1NBN
General Class

[KI4PEQ]

I hope you have a good supply of asbestos underwear, my friend!

By the way, nice avatar!

[vk3pb]

I'd have to agree with you Chris.

There is a #prevailing attitude in some quarters that puts down new amateurs, criticises them for any perceived level of technical knowledge and questions their legitimacy to be amateurs.

Maybe it is time to put the show on the other foot. The direction of radio is now towards computer technologies such as software defined radio. If our license structure was changed to require a basic proficiency in C+, boolean algebra and computer construction I wonder how many of these critical hams would cut the grade? Arguably those topics have greater relevance to today's radio world and the technical abilities of our younger folk would run rings around some older amateurs.

I think this kind of generational gap snobbishness has got to stop and we have to recognise that we were all beginners once. We should be elmering newcomers to the hobby and developing their technical knowledge, not treating them like second class amateurs.

Good on you for highlighting behaviour that arguably could or may even have already brought our hobby into disrepute.

Regards Peter VK3PB

[kn4ds]

Quote[/b] (KB1NBN @ July 28 2007,00:41)]It is often thought that because we have not passed a CW test, that we must not know as much about radio as other hams do.
We don't know as much about operating on HF...

Frankly, some things can only come with experience.

Those of us who're new to HF don't always understand propagation, we don't get that a station can go away all of a sudden, not because they're mobile and went beyond range of the repeater, but because the band changed...

But most of the heartburn from long time HF operators comes from an attitude on the part of the newcomers that they have a better way of operating.

I've said this before, and many don't really get it... we have to *earn* our place in amateur radio... the requirements changed, but just because we passed a written test doesn't mean we get automatic respect and acceptance. The truth is, even those who passed a CW test don't get instant respect and acceptance... contrary to what AG4YO would have you believe...

The proof is in the pudding... since you upgraded, are you just going on the air to get contacts? Or are you giving anything back to the amateur community? Are you helping others learn things? Are you participating in your local club, helping with the projects already on the drawing board?

Or are you the king of the hams now that you've upgraded? Going on about how great you are, and how you will save ham radio? Have you gone to your local club and told everybody how they're doing it all wrong, and here's the right way?

[K8MHZ]

Hi Chris,

You are only 13?

How cool! #You are so lucky that you have a license at your age. #I wish someone would have shown me the sport of ham radio at a much younger age. #I was over 30 before I got my first license.

My daughter, Nicole, K0LEY just turned 14 and has had her license since she was 11. #She passed her Morse test the same year, with me at the Hudsonville, Michigan hamfest.....and did better than me on the test!

I think you are very eloquent regardless of your age and would consider it an honor to chat with you on any band. #Be true to yourself and don't worry too much about what others think of you. #It is what you think of yourself that matters. #Be proud and walk tall that you are a ham. #Here is something to think about. #I was a Technician for over TEN YEARS! #I didn't get my General Class license until I was 47 years old! #I just became an Extra not quite two years ago. #You dusted me and I am not at all ashamed to admit it. #You have much to be proud of and don't let those with fragile egos get you down. #Just smile at them, wish them peace and go on about your business in a comfortable manner and I am certain that you will enjoy a long and happy life as a ham radio operator.

And thank you, I will have a good weekend. #Tomorrow I will be at the Muskegon Area Amateur Radio Council's club house celebrating the Teenage Net at their annual picnic. #All hams and their families and friends regardless of age, creed, color, race, or favorite brand of radio are invited. #I wish you lived closer I would love to have the pleasure of meeting you as all of the folks at the picnic would.

Please remember, the Internet is NOT ham radio.

Live long and prosper and bear your license with pride.

I hope to catch you on the air sometime.

And thank you for being the future of ham radio at such a respectable age. #I truly appreciate it OM! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

May Peace be with you forever,

Mark, K8MHZ

[kf6rdn]

Quote[/b] (KI4PEQ @ July 27 2007,20:52)]I hope you have a good supply of asbestos underwear, my friend!

By the way, nice avatar!
Indeed..
I'm sure Chuck will be along shorty to tell him his "place".

Welcome Chris.

[wv6z]

Dare I say it?............. Chris, one of the main things to remember too sir is those who have taken up amateur radio as a hobby, such as yourself, cannot be held accountable for rule changes that have occurred. That is to say, even if you wanted to take a CW endorsement test, a dollar to a doughnut says, you cannot find ANY VE team that is offering one even for fun.

Also, as you are 13 and starting out in a very old and noble pass time, there is a pretty good chance (but no guarantee is given or implied) that you sir, will inherit the hobby from almost everyone else here, as in, there’s a pretty good chance that you will out live us all there ‘Old Man’!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[K8MHZ]

Quote[/b] ]Or are you the king of the hams now that you've upgraded? #Going on about how great you are, and how you will save ham radio? #Have you gone to your local club and told everybody how they're doing it all wrong, and here's the right way?


Are you assuming that he did any of these things? #If so, why?

Nothing in his post led me to make such an assumption, why would anyone else?

What were YOU doing at his age for ham radio? #At least he is making an attempt to better the hobby for young folks by pointing out his discoveries that some of the old guard may be doing a disservice to all of us based upon their attitude. #

The future of ham radio is with the young people. #I commend him immensely for making his point here and not being afraid to mention his age. #A true David in a room full of Goliaths. #

I don't think Chris will need an asbestos suit. #He seems fully capable of handling himself from what I have read of his opening statement.

I just have the feeling that Chris 'ain't skeerd' of any of you and has the advantage of youth to do what us OF's only wish we could do in our short times left here on good ol' planet Earth.

[wv6z]

Quote[/b] (k8mhz @ July 26 2007,23:21)]I just have the feeling that Chris 'ain't skeerd' of any of you and has the advantage of youth to do what us OF's only wish we could do in our short times left here on good ol' planet Earth.
Ed Zackery, but it will be tons of fun to watch the usual idiots file through to waste their time trying to flame Chris and put him in his place. With the ultimate weapon of youth, Chris wins any way you slice it.

[kj5t]

Thanks Chris!

First off, it is great to see more young people get involved. Second off, I agree with you, it seems people want to disrespect someone because of when they got licensed. When I upgraded to Extra, I was considered Extra-lite and I certainly don't have the same technical knowledge that other Extras do. However, by the time I got interested in radio they had already changed the test and went down to 5wpm morse code, there is nothing I or anyone can do about that.

I have fun with ham radio, just now actually getting back on the air after over a year of no contacts. I hope to enjoy the hobby for many years to come and I wish you the best of luck. Don't let anyone get you down. Enjoy yourself!

Here's to peace on earth.

Steve

[K8MHZ]

Quote[/b] (ku4my @ July 27 2007,17:26)]Quote[/b] (k8mhz @ July 26 2007,23:21)]I just have the feeling that Chris 'ain't skeerd' of any of you and has the advantage of youth to do what us OF's only wish we could do in our short times left here on good ol' planet Earth.
Ed Zackery, but it will be tons of fun to watch the usual idiots file through to waste their time trying to flame Chris and put him in his place. With the ultimate weapon of youth, Chris wins any way you slice it.
Hi Tom,

We aren't about to let that happen with impunity now are we...OM? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[wv6z]

Quote[/b] (k8mhz @ July 26 2007,23:38)]Quote[/b] (ku4my @ July 27 2007,17:26)]Quote[/b] (k8mhz @ July 26 2007,23:21)]I just have the feeling that Chris 'ain't skeerd' of any of you and has the advantage of youth to do what us OF's only wish we could do in our short times left here on good ol' planet Earth.
Ed Zackery, but it will be tons of fun to watch the usual idiots file through to waste their time trying to flame Chris and put him in his place. With the ultimate weapon of youth, Chris wins any way you slice it.
Hi Tom,

We aren't about to let that happen with impunity now are we...OM? # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Ahem.... that's OF to to you..... you OF! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[KE5FRF]

Hello Chris.

I certainly hope that you haven't mistaken anything that I post to mean that you aren't a good ham or that you aren't a welcome addition to amateur radio. At the age of thirteen there are some concepts that you haven't been introduced to quite yet...I know, I was 13 once. Us grouchy old grown adults like to talk about political things and bicker and fuss. What we are really doing is promoting our own philosophies.

I agree with the spirit of your post, but there are a few points that I disagree. First of all, you made the statement that the older hams are mistaken in believing that because you didn't pass a CW test that you don't know as much about radio as they do. Well, you are correct that CW has little bearing on radio knowledge, but on the other hand being a middle school age kid you have no way of knowing just how little you know at this point and how much more these very old amateurs know about radio than you do. I would even say that about myself and I am almost three times your age. Many of these men and women have FORGOTTEN more about radio than we will ever know.

That is a very important point because its the root of the topic. As new hams we SHOULDN'T be prettending to know as much as they do. We should be looking up to them and learning from them and letting them be our role models.

I'm pretty sure you realize that you are very much at a learning stage as a young teenager and didn't mean to insinuate that you know as much as these older gents. Just remember it isn't enough to SAY you know a lot about radio...us hams are here to demonstrate it.

You said that you have had some older guys treat you strange on the air. Well, I'd be willing to bet that a lot of it has to do with the age gap and nothing more. If you are as respectfull on the air as you were with your post then I have no reason to doubt you are a good operator. But one thing I'd mention is that if you have been slighted on the air and someone treated you like you didn't know anything, it might very well be that something you thought you knew was wrong. My advice to you at this stage is to listen and continue to learn. I have no reason to believe you have done this, but you'd be better off asking questions on the air with old guys and not getting into disagreements with them over what you know or think you know about radio. remember that many of them have forgotten more than you or I will ever know.

Last, please don't take my comments the wrong way. You seem like a good kid who has a lot to offer ham radio. I'm just trying to help you see things from another angle or a way that you may not have considered. Remember that it isn't the place of these old guys to respect YOU...You as the new ham have to earn THEIR respect and part of doing that involves listening and trying to understand the things they tell you.

I know what its like being 13. At this stage you do not realize it yet but we've all been there. You are not yet a grown up but no longer a little kid. Don't be in too big of a hurry to be grown up though and remember you have a lot of years of grwoing up and learning still ahead of you.

GOOD LUCK WITH HAM RADIO.

[wd0ct]

Chris repeat after me 10,000 times, You Gotta Earn Their Respect Boy! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I bet you are as sick of seeing that as I am.

[wb6mmj]

Quote[/b] (KB1NBN @ July 27 2007,21:41)]After reading quite a few posts here on QRZ, i have noticed that a few of older hams seem to be putting down the new 0 WPM HF operators. Lots of people have been giving newer HF hams a bad rep. It is often thought that because we have not passed a CW test, that we must not know as much about radio as other hams do. In some cases, i find this to be quite the opposite. I also find it interesting that, when talking on HF, i am asked how old i am, i give them my age, 13. Their attitude changes and they start talking to me like i don't know what i am talking about. Don't judge someone on the radio using their age or call sign or class.

Remember, some of these people who you talk to are the future of ham radio. treat them with respect.

This article is not to put anyone down, or make anyone angry. i have been a ham for just almost 2 years. This article is simply here to hopefully provoke some thought into this subject. I realize that there are a huge amount of hams that don't do any of this kind of things, but there has been enough here on the forum, that i decided to post this.

have a good weekend!

With peace,

Chris Craig
KB1NBN
General Class
Chris what is upsetting to us older hams is the fact that Ham Radio is dumbing down. You said that " In my opinion, someone who has passed their test for HF after the no code law passed, is just as much a ham as someone who got their license 40 years ago."
I have to say this. Yes you are a Ham but 40 years ago a person taking a Amateur test had to know so much more than you did to get his license and of course, the code. If you wanted to be a Ham back then you really had to want it. When you got your license, you put more value on what you had to go through to get it, I believe. I got mine 32 years ago and it was not a easy thing to do.
I wanted to be a Ham when I was a young boy. It was in my blood, so to speak, and it WAS going to happen and, of course, did.
Now just about anyone can get their license with so much less work. I think there is truth to the saying " You get out of something what you put into it".
We had a good filter when tests were harder. It kept out the 10-4 Good Buddies.
When I got my license back in 1975 there were old-time Hams then that thought the new Hams didn`t know as much as they did. I believe that was true. Those old-time hams had to build their equipment in allot of cases. I had and have much respect for those old guys and I sure didn`t complain about them being upset about how easy it was in 1975 for me to get my license compared to how hard it was for them. It was hard to get my license but harder for them when they did.
So why are some of the old-time hams upset? We have seen Ham Radio dumb down so much through the years and I have seen a trend. I have said for years, because of what the F.C.C. and the A.R.R.L. have done to Ham Radio, that Ham Radio and C.B. will be the same some day.
You would have to have paid attention to what has happened through the years to see where Ham Radio is headed.
Allot of us old-time Hams are angry. We have seen our hobby go down the toilet as time goes by.
I hate C.B. and I don`t want to see our Ham bands get trashed by C.B`ers who can get their license without having to learn much of anything to get their license. Just try listening to C.B. do we want that stuff on our Ham bands? I sure don`t.
I believe there will be a day where you will sign your name to a license application, saying you know the rules and regulations, and you will receive your Ham License.
That's when C.B. and Ham Radio will be one in my opinion.

[N0WVA]

In the past, to become an amateur , a person usually got a SW radio and started listening to become familiar with propagation, antennas, and the general way that hams operate. And you had to know these things first in order to pass the test to get a license.

Now, you just pick up a booklet, memorize the questions and answers, and then bumble along cluelessly asking questions like "how do I build a dipole"?

I think this is the main gripe of older hams, and to some extent, myself also.

[n0iu]

Chris,

I feel your pain my brother! I haven't been licensed that long either, only about 15 years. I got into amateur radio when my life circumstances permitted me to do so, not because of what Part 97 required. Frankly, I am quite jealous of you. I wish I had gotten into this hobby when I was 13, but I did not get my first license until I was 35.

But anyway, in order for me to get an Extra Class license, I had to take 5 written tests and 3 Morse code tests. Believe it or not, there were some old timers who did not consider me to be a real ham! Why? Because I did everything under the VE system. But in their case, there was no published test pool and they had to take their tests at an FCC Field Office and very often they had to walk uphill both ways barefoot through a blinding snowstorm in the middle of July to get there only to end up taking a test before an FCC Engineer who's parents weren't married to each other!

So you see, you just can't make some people happy no matter what. Perhaps one day there will be no more tests required for amateur radio and then you can get on here and tell all the newcomers how rough you had it when you got your license!

Enjoy the hobby,
Scott NØIU

[W3MIV]

Chris:

I believe the greatest part of what you are dealing with is not a "ham-radio" problem. It is a "human-nature" problem. The reason people start off treating you as an "equal" is largely because they cannot see you, thus cannot respond in the age-old manner of speaking down to the young.

It is wrong, sure, but it is not new or unique to amateur radio. I don't know of any cure for it except patience and a bit of kindly understanding toward those who are so rude, whether consciously or un-.

Remember the most important thing: You will outlive them all, and you and your peers will have learned a valuable lesson in how not to treat newbies when you are an OF whistling through ill-fitted dentures. The only trouble is, you will probably follow the same ages-old development tracks that you licensed antecedents trudged along on the way to curmudgeonly OFdom.

Put up with it for now. Spin the big knob when you need to. The fun is worth it.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

73

[K6UEY]

Some time back in one of my postings I made reference to the Ham that all the new people talk about, one who was born with all the experience and knowledge of some one who has been in Ham Radio over 40 years.

Well it looks like that Ham Genius has surfaced.So all the rumors of his exsistance are really true.

Normally a Ham serves an apprenteship of about 20 years before he is experienced enough to be in a position to lead and advise others. Being 13 years old and already knowing all there is to know,will now turn into a boring endevour. He has Nothing new to learn! With out the neophyte period to look back on he will have only the knowledge he was born with to get by on.

So I guess the next step is for his parents to BUY him a PNP rig and BUY a PNP antenna then hire some one to put it up, and he can enjoy the life of Ham Radio chasing SKIP !!
OH!! Wait a minute he was BORN with the experience and knowledge,so his parents are off the hook,he can design and build his OWN PNP rig and build his own designed PNP antenna,however at 13 it might be a good idea to hire some one to put it up,we don't want him to fall and get hurt !
Now if the fledglings can locate a few more who are BORN with that knowledge and experience and wisdom maybe they can save Amateur Radio afterall !!

Just think if we in our generation had been lucky enough to have such people in Ham Radio 50 years ago ,just think how much farther the state of the Art could have progressed.But nay, we had to walk uphill both ways barefooted in the snow to learn enough to give the present generation all the trinkets and gadgets that they so easily take for granted today !!

When the new generation can match what our generation has accomplished we then will show them the respect they have EARNED !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[wz9o]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ July 28 2007,04:27)]Some time back in one of my postings I made reference to the Ham that all the new people talk about, one who was born with all the experience and knowledge of some one who has been in Ham Radio over 40 years.

Well it looks like that Ham Genius has surfaced.So all the rumors of his exsistance are really true.

Normally a Ham serves an apprenteship of about 20 years before he is experienced enough to be in a position to lead and advise others. Being 13 years old and already knowing all there is to know,will now turn into a boring endevour. He has Nothing new to learn! With out the neophyte period to look back on he will have only the knowledge he was born with to get by on.

So I guess the next step is for his parents to BUY him a PNP rig and BUY a PNP antenna then hire some one to put it up, and he can enjoy the life of Ham Radio chasing SKIP !!
OH!! Wait a minute he was BORN with the experience and knowledge,so his parents are off the hook,he can design and build his OWN PNP rig and build his own designed PNP antenna,however at 13 it might be a good idea to hire some one to put it up,we don't want him to fall and get hurt !
Now if the fledglings can locate a few more who are BORN with that knowledge and experience and wisdom maybe they can save Amateur Radio afterall !!

Just think if we in our generation had been lucky enough to have such people in Ham Radio 50 years ago ,just think how much farther the state of the Art could have progressed.But nay, we had to walk uphill both ways barefooted in the snow to learn enough to give the present generation all the trinkets and gadgets that they so easily take for granted today !!

When the new generation can match what our generation has accomplished we then will show them the respect they have EARNED !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
Very true indeed!!

[N2RJ]

like I've said, my problem is not with brand new hams.

It's with people who waited years for code to drop when they could have easily passed 5, 13 even 20wpm with just a little effort.

[KA4DPO]

Quote[/b] (KB1NBN @ July 27 2007,23:41)]Remember, some of these people who you talk to are the future of ham radio. treat them with respect.

have a good weekend!

With peace,

Chris Craig
KB1NBN
General Class
Let me turn that around on you a bit Chris. Try this;

Remember, some of these people who you talk to have been amateur radio operators more than 3 time longer than you have been alive. Treat them with respect and they'll help you become the future of amateur radio.

You see Chris respect is a two way street and in this hobby you earn respect largely by how you conduct yourself.

Hope to work you on the air.

John..

[N8CPA]

I think the problem is too many confuse courtesy and respect. Of course, your license and call sign certainly deserve courtesy. But respect is something that must be earned. And to demand it first thing is discourteous.

[K8YZK]

Nice post Chris, I know what you are talking about when it comes to saying how old you are. I was 15 when first licensed and ran into the same problem. Way I got around it was to show that I knew what I was talking about, and if not I asked the OF's of my time some questions to see that I wanted to learn more, plus it stroked their ego's which helped.

Now as far as code/no code, I thought the FCC should have kepted it for Extra, but they decided not to. I have no problem talking to anyone, and I don't ask if they are a code/nc licensed person. I am here to enjoy the hobby.

Kurt

[W5HTW]

Quote[/b] (KB1NBN @ July 27 2007,21:41)]After reading quite a few posts here on QRZ, i have noticed that a few of older hams seem to be putting down the new 0 WPM HF operators. In my opinion, someone who has passed their test for HF after the no code law passed, is just as much a ham as someone who got their license 40 years ago. Lots of people have been giving newer HF hams a bad rep. It is often thought that because we have not passed a CW test, that we must not know as much about radio as other hams do. In some cases, i find this to be quite the opposite. I also find it interesting that, when talking on HF, i am asked how old i am, i give them my age, 13. Their attitude changes and they start talking to me like i don't know what i am talking about. Don't judge someone on the radio using their age or call sign or class.

Remember, some of these people who you talk to are the future of ham radio. treat them with respect.

This article is not to put anyone down, or make anyone angry. i have been a ham for just almost 2 years. This article is simply here to hopefully provoke some thought into this subject. I realize that there are a huge amount of hams that don't do any of this kind of things, but there has been enough here on the forum, that i decided to post this.

have a good weekend!

With peace,

Chris Craig
KB1NBN
General Class
I agree with you. It is not the fault of the new ham that the rules were changed, and I, too, believe that when a person gets a ham license, he or she IS a ham radio operator.

The difference is in attitude. Those who come into amateur radio aware of their 'newness,' and that, no matter their background, they have things to learn, are going to make friends fast. There are people who have worked in professional electronics, perhaps with the government, for 20-30 years, but were never into amateur radio. They take a test and get a ham license, and suddenly they know all there is to know about amateur radio. That isn't true. They may know electronics. But there is more to amateur radio than just electronics theory. Operating, courtesy, procedures, are only a part of it.

If I suddenly decided I was going to go into sailboating, I would not buy a boat and get onthe water and start telling the other sailors they are doing it wrong, and now that I'm here, I will show them how it is supposed to be done. After all, I've read a book on it, and I have seen a sailboat before, so I am an expert. That is the problem we run into with many new hams.

But not with all. Remember, it is a matter of attitude.

We Old Timers do not disrepect the new ham. What we find hard to swallow, impossible to swallow, is the long time no-code ham, who sat around for over a decade waiting for the hobby to change to suit him. That isn't why you do things. If you want to get into something, you should not want to get into it to change it, for then it will not be what you wanted to get inot.

As to people hearing you on the air and asking your age, maybe your voice is still youthful? Some folks may want to know your age as older hams often enjoy working young kids, as that is a way to give them experience. It isn't a bad thing. But when they then appear to be snobs, I agree again with you, that isn't right.

Unless, my young ham, you start telling them how much you know. Then you are going to turn them off big time. So check your own attitude, be sure you are without fault, that you are not coming in here telling that old boater how to rig his sails, and that you are accepting your age and you inexperience. Yes, inexperience. But sure the windows in your house are clean, so you can see out them as well as others can see in.

But don't assume you are without fault, and that all those guys with 20, 30, 40, or like me, 50, years of ham radio behind them, need to benefit from your knowledge and experience. And even if you believe that, don't let THEM know!

Good luck, and welcome to ham radio.

Ed

[ab0wr]

Quote[/b] (N0WVA @ July 28 2007,01:04)]In the past, to become an amateur , a person usually got a SW radio and started listening to become familiar with propagation, antennas, and the general way that hams operate. And you had to know these things first in order to pass the test to get a license.

Now, you just pick up a booklet, memorize the questions and answers, and then bumble along cluelessly asking questions like "how do I build a dipole"?

I think this is the main gripe of older hams, and to some extent, myself also.
You just described my experience to a "T".

I started off with an old antique radio that had a SW band on it (I mean this was like you see in the pictures of people listening to the Grand Ol Opry in the 40's). I found hams running AM on 80m and just had a ball listening.

I graduated from that to an old Hallicrafters and then to a *real* ham receiver, an old RME4350a. This all happened over a period of a year to year and a half before I got my Novice license. I even had a dipole strung up between trees to use listening. I didn't even own a transmitter till after I got my Novice. By then I knew how a QSO went, how to identify, etc.

Actually having my first QSO was not all that scary after all that time listening. And I was just 14 when I got my Novice.

At 16 I built a plate modulator for my Globe Chief 90a and went on the air with AM! *That* was a thrill!!

tim ab0wr

[W0LPQ]

YZK says "I asked the OF's of my time some questions to see that I wanted to learn more, plus it stroked their ego's which helped"

You might be surprised to find out that ... stroking ones ego means squat. Try ... Thank You ..! That will get you more and farther than the ego thing. Shame that very few even know the words anymore.

NBN when you have been in amateur radio for over 12 years, means you have been through at least one solar cycle and understand a little about strange propagation.

There are many facets to this thing called amateur radio. It is up to you to learn, understand and pass the info on. However, when you learn things and pass them on ... maybe then someone will say to you .. Thank You..!

I remember seeing lab techs in Cedar Rapids in the 60's and 70's who did not even know Ohms Law. That is sad. At least then most of them did not have the attitude that many have today.

Bill, W0LPQ/9

[K3UD]

I was licensed at age 13 after 3 years of being an SWL. When I went on the air in 1964 I was pretty raw. However, we had the Novice license to help us along. Most of the contacts I had were with other kids just like me and we were all plugging away at getting our code speed up and sorting out the technical issues with our stations and learning what ham radio was all about and how to interact with it. I never had a bad CW QSO as a Novice. However, when I decided to get on 2 meter AM phone (a Novice privilege back then) I started to get some flack from the OFs at the time. There were other kids in my age range on 2 meter AM and soon enough many of us got crystals on the same frequency and we had our own teenage net on 145.4 Mc. And we helped each other as we grew in knowledge of what we were doing and where we wanted to go with it.

When I finally got my General license I used my DX-40 carrier controlled transmitter on 75 and 40 meter phone, and once again ran into the OFs, but there were several teen nets to chose from and once again we all found commonality in what we were doing. By the time we became Generals most of us thought that we knew a lot, but the reality was that we really did not know much http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I think that K6UEY is correct about a many year leaning process. I don't think that it takes 20 years, maybe more like 5 - 10 years.

When we lost the Novice license we really lost a lot as the Technician license did not and does offer the opportunity we had over 40 years ago.

So Chris, Keep plugging along and learning. This is what we all do if we are serious about being an Amateur radio op. Since I was an SWL, It has been a lifetime of learning.

73
George
K3UD

[kc2orw]

Quote[/b] (ku4my @ July 27 2007,22:16)]That is to say, even if you wanted to take a CW endorsement test, a dollar to a doughnut says, you cannot find ANY VE team that is offering one even for fun.
Hey I have been wondering about this one myself...
Why don't they offer an optional code test and then publish it. It should be entirely optional but why the heck not !!!

[ab0wr]

Quote[/b] (kc2orw @ July 28 2007,07:08)]Quote[/b] (ku4my @ July 27 2007,22:16)]That is to say, even if you wanted to take a CW endorsement test, a dollar to a doughnut says, you cannot find ANY VE team that is offering one even for fun.
Hey I have been wondering about this one myself...
Why don't they offer an optional code test and then publish it. It should be entirely optional but why the heck not !!!
I believe the ARRL is still offering their CW Qualifying Run's on CW.

Check out the ARRL web site.

tim ab0wr

[WW3QB]

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ July 28 2007,04:46)]like I've said, my problem is not with brand new hams.

It's with people who waited years for code to drop when they could have easily passed 5, 13 even 20wpm with just a little effort.
How do you know the difference?

Is ham radio so attractive that someone would wait years for code requirements to change? The code change was never guaranteed to happen.

Is the code so difficult that someone who really wants to be a ham would wait years instead of learning it?

Has everybody being licensed now been waiting for the code requirement change? How do you know if they have been waiting or just now decided to be a ham?

I'm a 13WPM Advanced class ham licensed in 1973. Back then, we had many teenagers like me get into ham radio (many were CB'ers). The code really was not that much of an issue to learn and we really did not find the tests that hard. I studied the ARRL license manual and found the tests to match it very closely.

There is a hostility towards new hams that did not exist before. All new hams will be NC somethings. Will they ever be accepted? Or will we chase them out of ham radio? I've posted before, new hams will be old hams unless we chase them out. Old hams will be dead hams. Will the last licensed ham please turn off the lights?

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (KB1NBN @ July 27 2007,21:41)]I also find it interesting that, when talking on HF, i am asked how old i am, i give them my age, 13. Their attitude changes and they start talking to me like i don't know what i am talking about. Don't judge someone on the radio using their age or call sign or class.
Now, I'm going to talk to you like you don't know what you're talking about. I know you're 13 and know everything there is to know about everything, but hear me out. First I am NOT saying you aren't bright, smart, clever, etc. What I am saying is that pehaps you need a little more experience in life before making up your mind about why people talk to you that way. Looks like you were licensed a year as a Technician before the rules change, so you have about a year and a half in AR. Most people also know that probably 2-3 years ago, you were playing with Power Rangers or Pokemon.

Now before you get redfaced, let me assure you that I want you in AR, and in fact I'd be privledged to QSO with you any time. Because I said the above, doesn't mean I don't appreciate your interest in AR. But do yourself a BIG favor and stow the NCT attitude. Most people on the air will run around their butt to get to their elbow to talk to you, help you, and show you their appreciation for your interest. All you have to do in return is not be "Mr. Know-it-all".

If this message makes you mad, I am very sorry. But because I do want you to advance in AR knowledge and stay in the ranks I am telling you the truth and to your face. In anybody's book, that is called respect.

[wa9cwx]

I too got my first Ham Ticket at 13, after being an SWL for about 2 years, and an amateur experimentor/blower upper/ destroyer of electronics for a year or so.

Worked my way up the ranks, and got my commercial CW ticket, and Extra ham ticket by age 19.

That is the same year that I was a sophmore in college, while working two part time jobs, to pay for my flying lessons. (I passed my Private Pilots written at 19, and had soloed at 17).

By the time I was 21, I was married, had graduated with a B.A. with a double major, and was teaching full time, and in Grad school nights.

I was also an accomplished hypnotist, working professionaly, and made more money than in my full time teaching job.
I left both, went back to school where I received a B.S. in Biology, then graduated Chiropractic school, where I completed the full time four year course by going full time through the summers, and graduated in three years, then passed full National boards, Basic science Med boards, and Chiropractic boards, and established my practice.

I returned to grad school, both in Psychology, and Chiropractic, while maintainig a full time practice.

I studied 15 -20 hours per week for two decades after that, and completed studies, and certification in different branches of the healing arts.

My personal practice included 10 employees, and diverse theraputics.

My personal study involved me in topics that I became noted for, and I was an invited speaker at chiropractic seminars, and various philosophy and metaphysical conferences, over a ten year period, from both coasts, and the midwest and the south, where I presented talks on topics ranging from physics, to consciousness, to life and goal managment.

I was selected to interview a well known author in physics, at a meeting in Chicago. One of my proudest moments.

I remember being 13, what I don't remember is telling oldsters what their attitudes should be.

What I DO remember, is always being interested in what I DON'T know, and looking for someone who truely knows more than I do.
Those are the people I love to listen to, and learn from.

At 13, I remember a few stupid adults, but I STILL found things to LISTEN to, and I definitly remember being polite, and respectful.

I was in AWE of anyone in Ham Radio, I tried to learn from ALL of my elders, and would read, ask questions, and try to figure out WHAT was going on.
I PRACTICED, off and on the air, until my code speed, and listening skills, were at their best, I NEVER even thought of 'correcting' the attitudes of my elders, even the concept would have been foriegn to me.

Lecturing to an adult, on how to behave, or think, would have been so beyond me as to be incomprehensible, period.

As an aside, my son, now 27, has a different take on things.
He has known everything there is to know about anything that can be known.

At 19, he took a job for one day doing roofing.
He had never been on a roof prior to that.

At the end of the day, he informed the owner how stupid he was, and told him that he needed a raise, and preceded to inform him how to correct his incompetence.

He was truely offended and upset that he was fired, he called me to explain what a jerk this roofer was, and how stupid he was to not listen to him.

We each have different approaches to life.

Frank

[wa9cwx]

My point in the above post, is that at NO point did I EXPECT 'respect' from my elders.
I expected to be given the opportunity to EARN my way, whether it be self respect, respect of others, or failure and / or #embarrassment.

And by the way, NO tests, EVER, for either the pilots written, the Ham licenses, the commercial CW license, or the board certifications, or any of the licensing tests of ANY kind, involved a word for word 'question/answer' pool.

THAT would have been unthinkable, and called cheating.

And that STILL did not include an automatic 'respect factor'.

You EARN respect, you don't 'test' for it.

[ky5u]

Frank, I had one too. One of my sons at 19 was the same way. I think that we treat our kids like the center of the entire universe and there comes a time when they grapple with the real insignificance of themselves in the real world. The good ones realize that they can be significant in ways if they're willing to work at it. Others just sit back and whine and become victums of living.

[W5HTW]

Quote[/b] (ww3qb @ July 28 2007,07:22)]Is ham radio so attractive that someone would wait years for code requirements to change? The code change was never guaranteed to happen.

Is the code so difficult that someone who really wants to be a ham would wait years instead of learning it?

Has everybody being licensed now been waiting for the code requirement change? How do you know if they have been waiting or just now decided to be a ham?
Well, yeah. They got on QRZ and said specifically they were waiting for the code requirement to change. They got on QRZ before 2000, when it did change, and said specifically they were "NOT" going to learn the code. They got on QRZ and said "all I want to do is talk. Why do I have to learn the code?"

Yeah, all of those things. Hundreds of times. Right here in River City.

No, they did not "know" that the code requirement was going away, well, not many of them, anyway. But a few seemed to know, and before it actually did go away, they were on QRZ saying things like "You guys lost. Code testing is over." So not only were they waiting (and proud of it, as many of them specifically said) they were arrogant about it as well.

Guess you slept through that?

Is ham radio that attractive? Well, no, probably not anymore. By changing it, well, doggone it, it changed! It isn't the same anymore. Kind of like drilling a hole through the scenic mountains to put in an 8-lane tunnel, where once there was a scenic and delightful two lane road. "Make it for the masses." Certainly it has changed.

Is it still attractive? Must be, for the ones who are now flocking to it, since the code requirement has been removed. But to WHOM is it attractive? Aye, there is the rub.

But change is not reversible. We don't have a "do it again" button on the remote control. So we all must live with the changes.

As I have said in numerous posts, I am in no way disrespectful toward the newcomer to ham radio. He took the test that was offered. But for 15 years we had many, who openly stated here, and on other forums, the would NOT "take the test that was offered." Sure they hated code, but they hated more being 'forced to do it." Good thing that wasn't the attitude of hams a few decades ago or the only thing we would have today would be 27 mhz. There wouldn't BE any ham radio.

So, the answers to your questions are Yes, Yes, and Yes. They waited, they bragged about it, loudly and often. And those are the ones I do NOT respect. They waited for it to be less than it was before they decided to participate.

Ed

[ka0gkt]

Amateur Radio is similar to the public at large. The Ø WPM/ 5WPM/13WPM/20WPM thing can be turned to just about any other endeavor where something is made easier for newcomers than it was for the establishment.

Case in Point:

One might think that a church is all harmony, try putting an automatic dishwasher in the Fellowship Hall kitchen and watch the fur fly.

It happened at the Church where I grew up. The old ladies raised a stink when a big commercial Hobart dishwasher was donated to the church, and the Custodians from the Local Church College said that they would install it for free.

The old ladies basically said “I had to wash and dry the dishes after funerals, etc., and so should every one else! Even after the dishwasher was installed, only the youth and the younger women in the church would use the unit…and the old ladies would complain that the youngsters weren’t doing enough work!

You can’t change Human nature.

Back in the days when everyone passed a Morse Code test, I heard a Horses A$$ on the air berating a pair of younger hams who were having a QSO. I knew both gentlemen, one was confined to a wheelchair with Muscular Dystrophy, and the other was blind since birth. Both were home schooled because, back-in-those-days, the schools were not required to accommodate, and the wheelchair was considered a disruption to class. The south end of the northbound gelding made comments about how kids belonged in school, not on-the-air. There are still more than our share of such people on the Amateur bands.

So, Chris, I suggest that you develop a thick skin. Nothing makes a Horse’s Patoot more self-righteous than a newcomer or youngster who is right.

73 DE KAØGKT/7

--Steve

[K4GUN]

I want to know where all these threads are where new hams are telling the more experienced guys how to do things. I'm a new ham and a dreaded no-code extra and I wouldn't dare to presume to tell more experienced hams how to do things.

That said, there are a few things I've seen done and said by the more experienced hams that I know are wrong. Sometimes, the older guys just haven't kept up with what's available in the market. Other times, they just have bad habits. When that happens, I NEVER jump up to tell them what's what. I respect their wisdom but still try to introduce a new concept without contradicting the old ways.

For instance, in my local club, we were discussing my antenna which is a version of a Carolina Windom. The thing is resonant on several bands. One of the older guys was trying to explain why I needed to trim the legs to help with reception on 20 meters. I had to explain what an off-center fed dipole was. Does that mean I was disrespecting the old ways? Absolutely not. He just never got the memo. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Here on the 'zed, the only time I ever see a newbie tell an experienced op how to do things is when they ask for common courtesy. I don't see them telling the old guys to drop what they are doing and get on board with the "new ways". What the heck is the "new way" when it comes to radio anyway?

[wu3u]

May I make an observation?

Why in the He** does anyone have to "earn" the respect of other Hams?

What is this? #A college fraternity hazing ritual? #It's starting to sound just as childish.

When YOU get licensed...YOU are the station licensee...and YOU decide how YOUR station will be operated because YOU are responsible for its legal operation....NO other Ham....NO matter how long licensed - has the right to stick his big bulbous nose in YOUR Ham Radio business....If you don't like the way I operate (and I am VERY courteous and surprising as it may seem, very much a traditionalist), or ya think I am not close enough to a living Marconi with an EE degree from MIT for your tastes, than by God, PLEASE OM, just don't talk to me and leave me the he** alone....I have DX to chase, contests to win, high speed CW to improve on....maybe build a few things here and there even though I am no electrical engineer. # Leave me alone to have FUN with this OK OM??

Ham Radio is usually NOT a group activity....why can't this young man (the original poster) just enjoy Ham Radio in any legal fashion assuming some basic on the air courtesy?

As for me, a 25 year Extra who can eat my lunch and carry on a CW QSO at 35 plus WPM (yeah, I have built a few things over the years, won a few awards and some contests, still study the handbook.... but then again, so friggin' what?)

I say: #To He** with these Sour SOBs who think it is still 1955 and want to be the "Ham Worthiness" judging panel - most of them rarely help anyone but rather, they sit in their shacks using commercial equipment bought with generous pensions while all the while sitting back and giving all the younger, newer hams a hard time....

I just came in from a trip to store and checked into a bunch of repeaters and found almost zilch, nada, in the 5th largest Metro in the US.

To me, anyone showing the slightest interest in Ham Radio should be encouraged at best or at the least be left the he** alone.

Tell the Sour Old Curmudgeons to stick in their ears.....

Gee.

Tim
N8LXR

[wa9cwx]

A bit testy are we??
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

However, you do make a point, interest IN ham radio is a definite PLUS. There really seems to be very little of the mystery and excitement of 'radio' in the scheme of things today.

Frank

[ad1os]

I'm one of the old guys. Licensed for 40 yrs plus. When I started seeing questions about dipoles, what bands to use, what's this part, I looked over the sample tests. Lots stuff these new guys ask ain't on the test. I got no problem helping out with stuff you "think they should know". I think a lot of old timers feel threatened. So, I had to take my Extra on Varick Street, now code isn't required and you can take a test while you're at the laundromat. Who changed the rules? The new guys? They're getting shorted on some knowlege by the people that determine the standard.

[wu3u]

To ne honest, Ham Radio's OTs leave a lot to be desired, lets face it.

This has been going on with me for the last 25 years...and now I am getting to be an OT...lol.

When I was first licensed, I was FULL of enthusiam, absolutely loved Ham Radio.....and the local club was full of all these SOUR OTs who did damn little but say NO to danged near everything the younger Hams wanted to do like:

How about a new repeater? NO.

How about doing a really competitive Field Day? NO.

How about getting into a contest as a club? NO.

How about building our own club station? NO NO NO.

BUt they were plenty good at eating donuts and drinking coffee at our monthly Ham Radio (read "Social Group") club meetings....and yammering on about how great it was in 1950....and how too bad that today it is all just lousy lousy lousy......(Yep they were saying that back a quarter century ago...)

I mean it, I have seen this in Ham Radio's OTs all too often.....sour, disagreeable, not wanting to do much of anything....not wanting to improve or god forbid change anything.

And we wonder why the newer Hams get turned off in a hurry....

I have tried not to be that way now that I am getting to OT status.......but to be honst, I find very, very few people interested in Ham Radio AT ALL anyhow...

I just hope that if there is someone near here that is interested, that I can enjoy the hobby with them before some Sour Old Curmudgeon makes them feel "unworthy".

lol.

Tim
N8LXR

[VO1GXG]

I don't think they put them down becuase they don't know code . I think it is becuase they don't know the technical information they should know for HF .

Thats what i have found from MOST US Tech no code licensees. and Canadian Basic Licensees . I have a Canadian basic license that was grandfathered to Basic(+) so i have access to all bands.

If the exams focused more on the technical side then the rules side then code or no code would be fine with the older hams so i think ! .

[KE7NMS]

I am sure this has already been said, but I just want to throw in my two cents.

One of the other responses here said:

"That is a very important point because its the root of the topic. As new hams we SHOULDN'T be prettending to know as much as they do. We should be looking up to them and learning from them and letting them be our role models."

(Yes I know how to use the quote system, I am just lazy right now, was up all night on the HHH net.)

Now, I have to agree, we should look up to them. Yet, here on QRZ, it is hard to when a good portion of it is brow beating and putting down. I will be honest and admit I almost didn't get my liscence for fear that the people on the radio would be the same way they are here.

Luckfully, I didn't care and got on the radio anyways. They are different. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

They have forgotten more then I know about radio. I respect this fact, and I am more then willing to listen to constructive comments.

It's the people who respond to us new hams like we are idiots. I may not have a background in electronics that most have, but I have done HEAVY modifications to computer components, and was using computer communications of many forms since I was 6. aka. I'm not a complete idiot. Please don't treat me as such.

My other cent.

I have found, even if their knowledge of radio maybe less then the older hams, the younger one's actually have more of a grasp of being polite and ordered on the radio.

Out of all the nets I have listened too, the local 2m Kids Net is the most orginized net I have heard.

Now now, I know, I am new, and I havn't heard every radio net out there. So this opinion may change, and it is not ment as a put down. Just that no matter what the age, experience, and general knowledge. There is something we all can learn from each other.

When I hear a fellow ham having issues with his computer, I do what I can to help him. At the same time, I try to get to know the ham so I don't end up making them feel like a idiot. Even explain that my goal is to help, not discourage. Online, or On-Radio. Shouldn't make a difference.

Chris, keep it up. Keep in mind your opinions of people will change over time, and theirs of you will change. It will be a pleasure to QSO with you on HF if we get the chance, and maybe you can teach me a few new things. (That will be easy though, as I think you have been a operator longer then me. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif )

Take care all, and if I offended any one, I am sorry, as that wasn't my goal.
KE7NMS

[W0UZR]

I think what he (the original poster) is trying to say is that #"Ham Radio is or at least should be for everybody" #And not be put in a box just because you are new, or have a different view of things.

[k0dxc]

Hey buddy I looked you up and it's not a good thing to be transmitting with the antenna that close to your face.
(KB1NBN)

[KB1NBN]

Quote[/b] (k0dxc @ July 28 2007,16:59)]Hey buddy I looked you up and it's not a good thing to be transmitting with the antenna that close to your face.
(KB1NBN)
I was running about 250mw. You need very little power operating AO-51

[K8MHZ]

Quote[/b] (KB1NBN @ July 28 2007,13:53)]Quote[/b] (k0dxc @ July 28 2007,16:59)]Hey buddy I looked you up and it's not a good thing to be transmitting with the antenna that close to your face.
(KB1NBN)
I was running about 250mw. You need very little power operating AO-51
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

I don't know about any of the rest of you but I think Chris is one heck of a fine person and will make an excellent operator and a great addition to the hobby, if he isn't/hasn't already.

For his age, actually for any age, he is head and shoulders above many of those posting here trying to put him down. #Oh, and for those of you trying to put him down, you had better pack a lunch because it looks like you will be here a while trying to accomplish your goal.

Nice job Chris! #I wish I had half the skill, knowledge and tenacity at age 13 that you are demonstrating. #You are quite an admirable young man.

The only thing I don't understand is why you haven't told some of these guys where to stick it. #Perhaps it is because you seem to be a much better person than I was at your age and I am not afraid to admit it.

And just think....you have a half a dozen or so decades or more of a lifetime ahead of you to get even better. # Maybe some of your detractors are a little bit jealous?? # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[W0UZR]

He is more knowlegable on stuff than I am now possibly. And Holy Man has he been busy............Lookups: 3595
Copy and pasted from the look up page.


Chris. 1. When you find a job, find one you will enjoy doing. And that you would do if it wasn't a job and weren't getting paid.

2. ALWAYS LIVE IN THE COUNTRY

[wa9cwx]

Quote[/b] (w0uzr @ July 27 2007,22:02)]2. #ALWAYS LIVE IN THE COUNTRY
[QUOTE]
As apposed to living....? Where? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[K8MHZ]

Quote[/b] (wa9cwx @ July 28 2007,16:07)][QUOTE=Quote (w0uzr @ July 27 2007,22:02)]2. #ALWAYS LIVE IN THE COUNTRY

As apposed to living....? #Where? # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Uh....in the city perhaps? Or the suburbs? Or anywhere that your neighbors can dictate whether or not you can have antennas and/or towers on your own property?

[W0UZR]

Quote[/b] (k8mhz @ July 28 2007,22:15)]Quote[/b] (wa9cwx @ July 28 2007,16:07)][quote=w0uzr,July 27 2007,22:02]2. #ALWAYS LIVE IN THE COUNTRY
Quote[/b] ]
As apposed to living....? #Where? # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Uh....in the city perhaps? #Or the suburbs? #Or anywhere that your neighbors can dictate whether or not you can have antennas and/or towers on your own property?
AAAAhh

yup! Er,,,That sounds pretty much like it.

AAAUUM Actually I would say that sounds Exactly like it.

[vk6zgo]

Quote[/b] (vk3pb @ July 27 2007,21:53)]I'd have to agree with you Chris.

There is a #prevailing attitude in some quarters that puts down new amateurs, criticises them for any perceived level of technical knowledge and questions their legitimacy to be amateurs.

Maybe it is time to put the show on the other foot. The direction of radio is now towards computer technologies such as software defined radio. If our license structure was changed to require a basic proficiency in C+, boolean algebra and computer construction I wonder how many of these critical hams would cut the grade? Arguably those topics have greater relevance to today's radio world and the technical abilities of our younger folk would run rings around some older amateurs.

I think this kind of generational gap snobbishness has got to stop and we have to recognise that we were all beginners once. We should be elmering newcomers to the hobby and developing their technical knowledge, not treating them like second class amateurs.

Good on you for highlighting behaviour that arguably could or may even have already brought our hobby into disrepute.

Regards Peter VK3PB

Sorry Peter,but I think you will find that the OTs aren't that dumb.
There is a quite reasonable chance that #most of them know Boolean Algebra (after all, the man's been dead since 1864),as it is basic to understanding logic circuitry,which has been around since the 1950's if not earlier
.
C+(how about C++) .No sorry ,mate I can't even program in Basic,but I think you'll find a few OT's proficient in it(& Fortran,Algol,& Cobol to boot!).

I,myself ,am quite happy#to let those clever people who can ,do this & deliver me a nice Windows Application a few generations down the line.

Come on,constructing computers is hardly rocket science.
I know quite a few people without a technical bone in their body who have assembled computers.

Perhaps back in the 70's & 80's it might have been a big deal.
The point is that Amateur Radio is a technical hobby, & its field is Electronics.To my mind,expertise in morse ,computers, Tango dancing, AFL football or whatever is only incidental to the basis of the hobby .

73 VK6ZGO[/QUOTE]

[KI4NGN]

Quote[/b] (vk6zgo @ July 29 2007,03:09)]The point is that Amateur Radio is a technical hobby, & its field is Electronics.To my mind,expertise in morse ,computers, Tango dancing, AFL football or whatever is only incidental to the basis of the hobby .
When a radio IS a computer, computers are not incidental.

We're already there.

[KI4NGN]

Quote[/b] (KE4UWL @ July 27 2007,22:04)]Quote[/b] (KB1NBN @ July 28 2007,00:41)]It is often thought that because we have not passed a CW test, that we must not know as much about radio as other hams do.
We don't know as much about operating on HF...

Frankly, some things can only come with experience. #

Those of us who're new to HF don't always understand propagation, we don't get that a station can go away all of a sudden, not because they're mobile and went beyond range of the repeater, but because the band changed...

But most of the heartburn from long time HF operators comes from an attitude on the part of the newcomers that they have a better way of operating.

I've said this before, and many don't really get it... we have to *earn* our place in amateur radio... the requirements changed, but just because we passed a written test doesn't mean we get automatic respect and acceptance. #The truth is, even those who passed a CW test don't get instant respect and acceptance... contrary to what AG4YO would have you believe...

The proof is in the pudding... since you upgraded, are you just going on the air to get contacts? #Or are you giving anything back to the amateur community? #Are you helping others learn things? #Are you participating in your local club, helping with the projects already on the drawing board?

Or are you the king of the hams now that you've upgraded? #Going on about how great you are, and how you will save ham radio? #Have you gone to your local club and told everybody how they're doing it all wrong, and here's the right way?
Every operator earned his or her place in ham radio when their license was granted.

Asking

"Are you just going to get on the air to get contacts?"

is synonomous with asking

"Are you just going to do that which is the primary purpose of ham radio?"

If that is all that he is interested in, all that he does, more power to him!

The ham community is on the air, not in the clubs, or on QRZ, or at hamfests.

73,
Mike

[KA4DPO]

Quote[/b] (vk6zgo @ July 29 2007,05:09)]Quote[/b] (vk3pb @ July 27 2007,21:53)]I'd have to agree with you Chris.

There is a #prevailing attitude in some quarters that puts down new amateurs, criticises them for any perceived level of technical knowledge and questions their legitimacy to be amateurs.

Maybe it is time to put the show on the other foot. The direction of radio is now towards computer technologies such as software defined radio. If our license structure was changed to require a basic proficiency in C+, boolean algebra and computer construction I wonder how many of these critical hams would cut the grade? Arguably those topics have greater relevance to today's radio world and the technical abilities of our younger folk would run rings around some older amateurs.

I think this kind of generational gap snobbishness has got to stop and we have to recognise that we were all beginners once. We should be elmering newcomers to the hobby and developing their technical knowledge, not treating them like second class amateurs.

Good on you for highlighting behaviour that arguably could or may even have already brought our hobby into disrepute.

Regards Peter VK3PB

Sorry Peter,but I think you will find that the OTs aren't that dumb.
There is a quite reasonable chance that #most of them know Boolean Algebra (after all, the man's been dead since 1864),as it is basic to understanding logic circuitry,which has been around since the 1950's if not earlier
.
C+(how about C++) .No sorry ,mate I can't even program in Basic,but I think you'll find a few OT's proficient in it(& Fortran,Algol,& Cobol to boot!).

I,myself ,am quite happy#to let those clever people who can ,do this & deliver me a nice Windows Application a few generations down the line.

Come on,constructing computers is hardly rocket science.
I know quite a few people without a technical bone in their body who have assembled computers.

Perhaps back in the 70's & 80's it might have been a big deal.
The point is that Amateur Radio is a technical hobby, & its field is Electronics.To my mind,expertise in morse ,computers, Tango dancing, AFL football or whatever is only incidental to the basis of the hobby .

73 VK6ZGO[/QUOTE]
Let me pop your bubble Chris. I've been a ham for a very long time. In 1979 I built my very own computer using the then brand new Z-80 microprocessor. I even constructed my own operating system ( all done in machine language) and blew the proms.

Your full of it.....

[vk6zgo]

Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ July 29 2007,03:31)]Quote[/b] (vk6zgo @ July 29 2007,03:09)]The point is that Amateur Radio is a technical hobby, & its field is Electronics.To my mind,expertise in morse ,computers, Tango dancing, AFL football or whatever is only incidental to the basis of the hobby .
When a radio IS a computer, computers are not incidental.

We're already there.
[QUOTE]

Ok, maybe I went over the top with the Tango & Football comments,but my point still stands:

A radio may actually be a computer,but to the world outside it looks like a radio,& must obey the same physical laws as any other radio.

These are largely #associated with antennas & impedance matching etc.

Most of us are "appliance operators" these days, & it doesn't make much difference if the appliance is a traditional analog radio,or computer pretending to be a radio,the external interfaces are similar, (RF,Power,etc)

I have worked with people who have knowledge in the computer field,& almost none in general electronics,& most of them #have fixed ideas & do not want to know about such basic concepts as Ohm's Law.

Having Computer knowledge is obviously an advantage, but if you don't know what you are trying to do,it becomes very difficult to use that advantage.
73VK6ZGO

[K9STH]

Putting on my moderator's hat:

A few posts in this thread are starting to get personal. Thus, I have to request (read "demand") that everyone get back to the original premysis of this thread.


Taking off my moderator's hat:

I have been licensed for over 48 years having taken my first examination (Novice Class) on my 15th birthday (13 February 1959) and receiving my license at the end of May 1959 (it was dated 15 May 1959). I proceded through General Class, Advanced Class, and Amateur Extra Class. At one time I could receive the International Morse code at over 70 words per minute (when in high school) but now am more comfortable in the 30 to 35 words per minute range (I don't operate CW like I did when in high school).

Now I am disappointed that the FCC eliminated CW as a requirement for an amateur radio operator's license. But, I do not "hold this against" newcomers. I have conducted CW learning classes for over 47 years and have had an extremely good graduation rate. In fact, I have only ever had 1 student who could not pass the examination and he refused to stop "counting" the "dits and dahs" and start listening to the characters. Starting when the code free Technician Class license was established these classes were primarily attended by those no-code Technician Class licensees wanting to upgrade to General Class. Now that the code is no longer required I have not held a class nor have I even been asked by someone to teach them the code.

I have always been willing to offer help to newcomers and "olde tymers" as well. Unfortunately, there definitely are some newcomers that "know it all" and who are very vocal in telling everyone "how" things should be done. Then there are those who do ask questions but when the answer is different from what they want to "hear" they become vocal, even abusive, telling those who give the answers how wrong those answers are. If the person asking the question already "knew" the answer (at least in their own mind) then why did they ask it?

Maybe I was "lucky" (or was it the fact that I was willing to learn) but when I got my license in May of 1959 I did NOT run into any problems with the locals. There were all sorts of "locals" who were licensed before World War II and even one who was licensed before World War I. I got "along" with all of them. Now I wasn't considered a "nerd" even though I was in the top 5 percent of the students in my high school of about 1600. I was on the track team all 4 years and on the cross-country team 3 years (didn't even know about the sport my freshman year) and "lettered" every year. Ran track and cross-country for a while in college (still have my "letter" jacket hanging in a closet "somewhere").

By my junior year a number of locals started asking me questions especially about building equipment since I had built several transmitters and even a 17 tube receiver (see
http://k9sth.com/uploads/qsl2.JPG for a notation). By my junior year in high school I was participating in contests and was even asked by 3 different local clubs to operate on Field Day. Now I did NOT "demand" anything in the way of respect from anyone. In fact, I just observed and learned from my "elders" as well as from books and magazines. As I learned others came to respect my knowledge.

That is a definite way to getting respect. One needs to earn the respect of others, not to demand respect and this is best accomplished by learning. This learning is done by several means including observing the actions of others as well as by reading books and magazines. If using the Internet as a basis one definitely needs to be able to tell the difference between right and wrong because the Internet is full of wrong information. When someone knows what "he/she is talking about" respect will come without any demands being made. That respect is available to young persons as well as the elder. But, again, one has to earn respect not demand it.

Those coming into amateur radio today are meeting the standards required by the FCC. Now I agree that those standards have been lowered considerably from those of the past. But, the decision to lower these standards was not made by the persons obtaining their licenses today but were made by the FCC. However, even though a person meets the present standards there is NOTHING in the rules that says that they cannont better themselves through education and experience. It is the efforts taken by the individual to improve their abilities (including improving their attitude) which make them different from the "masses" and make them a better operator.

Glen, K9STH

[AC0H]

Quote[/b] (KE4UWL @ July 28 2007,00:04)]Quote[/b] (KB1NBN @ July 28 2007,00:41)]It is often thought that because we have not passed a CW test, that we must not know as much about radio as other hams do.
We don't know as much about operating on HF...

Frankly, some things can only come with experience.

Those of us who're new to HF don't always understand propagation, we don't get that a station can go away all of a sudden, not because they're mobile and went beyond range of the repeater, but because the band changed...

But most of the heartburn from long time HF operators comes from an attitude on the part of the newcomers that they have a better way of operating.

I've said this before, and many don't really get it... we have to *earn* our place in amateur radio... the requirements changed, but just because we passed a written test doesn't mean we get automatic respect and acceptance. The truth is, even those who passed a CW test don't get instant respect and acceptance... contrary to what AG4YO would have you believe...

The proof is in the pudding... since you upgraded, are you just going on the air to get contacts? Or are you giving anything back to the amateur community? Are you helping others learn things? Are you participating in your local club, helping with the projects already on the drawing board?

Or are you the king of the hams now that you've upgraded? Going on about how great you are, and how you will save ham radio? Have you gone to your local club and told everybody how they're doing it all wrong, and here's the right way?
Ditto.

[WA9UAA]

Well, "I'm gonna get me in on this fuss," as Tom Mix once said. I read Chris' post several times. What he said was he felt that he was getting talked down to simply because of his age. Secondly, he felt he was just as much a ham as anybody licensed. I got my first license in 1964 and was about Chris' age at the time. I can see NO REASON to put someone down because of either their age or level of knowledge. I have had new hams, with fear in their voices, tell me," I'm pretty new at this. please be nice." If some of you people are so inadequate, that you feel the need for other people to stoop and bow then take a good look in the mirror! All a newcomer should need to do is listen to the experienced operators to see how it's done. Any new hams ought be welcomed, they'll learn soon enough what they need to learn. How they go about getting that knowledge and how they are treated when they ask, are the most important indicators in their continuation in amateur radio. I've had my encounters with the 'elite' class as a kid. The last I heard of one of them was that he stole the clubs generator when he moved! Young people who have made the effort to become licensed don't need to be 'put down' in order to be taught something. Young people who have been nurtured appropriately make much better adults and Op's. Chris, or any other new ops reading this, I'll be glad to talk with you any time!
73,
Rob WA9UAA http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[KD6NIG]

http://www.kd6nig.net/ms/Stop-Kitten.jpg
CODE. NO CODE. CODE. NO CODE. CODE. NO CODE. ARRRRRRRRGGGGH!

[wa9cwx]

Quote[/b] (w0uzr @ July 28 2007,03:04)]Quote[/b] (k8mhz @ July 28 2007,22:15)]Quote[/b] (wa9cwx @ July 28 2007,16:07)][quote=w0uzr,July 27 2007,22:02]2. #ALWAYS LIVE IN THE COUNTRY
Quote[/b] ]
As apposed to living....? #Where? # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Uh....in the city perhaps? #Or the suburbs? #Or anywhere that your neighbors can dictate whether or not you can have antennas and/or towers on your own property?
AAAAhh

# # # # # # #yup! # Er,,,That sounds pretty much like it.

# # # #AAAUUM Actually I would say that sounds Exactly like it.
[QUOTE]

Guess I never had any problems with antennas, neighbors, or anything ELSE relating to radio instaltions.

As a kid, I grew up in the heart of a major city, enjoyed the exposure to the exciting variety, in people, educational opportunities, and an eclectic, diverse culture.
As an adult, knowing that WHERE I LIVE is important, I have to make considerations, and choices BEFORE moving in ( #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif ) .....I have CHOSEN cities, locations, etc. that offer convenience, privacy, beauty, nature, and, since I like to operate..... ANTENNAS.....uh, duh? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

There are a LOT of choices for where to make your home, I was KIDDING, I thought, gently, since the choice of WHERE to live, is such an important variable, that real thought needs to go into the decision. Similar to the excellent occupation advice given, choose something that you would do, even if you did not get paid.

As with actions in life, live your life in a manner that would allow you to be proud, if everything you did was published in the paper, even if what was published, was completely false.

[n2nh]

Totally agree. As an older 13WPM Extree, I personally welcome you and the newbies to the ranks. But there's an old saying. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Eventually this will all be moot.

[kj3n]

Quote[/b] (ww3qb @ July 28 2007,10:22)]Is ham radio so attractive that someone would wait years for code requirements to change? The code change was never guaranteed to happen.
You've either been asleep or in denial since 1999, if you really believe the code change wasn't going to happen.

[KA4DPO]

Quote[/b] (kj3n @ July 29 2007,22:14)]Quote[/b] (ww3qb @ July 28 2007,10:22)]Is ham radio so attractive that someone would wait years for code requirements to change? The code change was never guaranteed to happen.
You've either been asleep or in denial since 1999, if you really believe the code change wasn't going to happen.
Oh lets see now 1999, 2007, that's eight years.

Yeah no big deal huh. Just cool your heels for eight long years waiting for the code requirement to drop, yeah I can see that. The point was that only a completely unmotivated individual would wait that long to take the easy way in. That's fine if that's all you want is an easy ride but don't expect the rest of us (yourself excluded of course) to think that the guy isn't a total slacker.

[kj3n]

Quote[/b] (KA4DPO @ July 29 2007,23:28)]Quote[/b] (kj3n @ July 29 2007,22:14)]Quote[/b] (ww3qb @ July 28 2007,10:22)]Is ham radio so attractive that someone would wait years for code requirements to change? The code change was never guaranteed to happen.
You've either been asleep or in denial since 1999, if you really believe the code change wasn't going to happen.
Oh lets see now 1999, 2007, that's eight years.

Yeah no big deal huh. Just cool your heels for eight long years waiting for the code requirement to drop, yeah I can see that.
I was only addressing the issue of whether or not the code change was ever going to happen. It would have back in 1999 if the FCC could have done it.

Denying that because you (collective you) don't want to hear it, is another matter.

Quote[/b] ]The point was that only a completely unmotivated individual would wait that long to take the easy way in. That's fine if that's all you want is an easy ride but don't expect the rest of us (yourself excluded of course) to think that the guy isn't a total slacker.

Oh, I've got no argument there. If someone like myself (who absolutely abhors CW and hasn't touched it in 15 years) can get through 5 WPM, anyone can.

Anyone else, well....... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[ae6rf]

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ July 27 2007,23:21)]but on the other hand being a middle school age kid you have no way of knowing just how little you know at this point and how much more these very old amateurs know about radio than you do.
Chuckle,

In middle school I had learned all the math and theory necessary for the Advanced license class (you know, back when it was really hard and didn't publish a question pool).

I was able to significantly kick (tail) during engineering school due to that early start.

Will a 13 year old know by experience what secondary propagation paths occur to where and what times? No. But that is the sort of thing that comes with time and experience.

Just so long as he remembers he has one mouth and two ears and uses them in that proportion, I'm sure things will be JUST fine.

There will ALWAYS be people that know more than one does.

So what?

It is a "big deal" only if those folks believe that increased knowledge makes them "better" than you, rather than just more experienced or knowledgable.

73 de Donald

[KA4DPO]

Quote[/b] (ae6rf @ July 30 2007,20:10)]Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ July 27 2007,23:21)]but on the other hand being a middle school age kid you have no way of knowing just how little you know at this point and how much more these very old amateurs know about radio than you do.
Chuckle,

In middle school I had learned all the math and theory necessary for the Advanced license class (you know, back when it was really hard and didn't publish a question pool).

I was able to significantly kick (tail) during engineering school due to that early start.

Will a 13 year old know by experience what secondary propagation paths occur to where and what times? No. But that is the sort of thing that comes with time and experience.

Just so long as he remembers he has one mouth and two ears and uses them in that proportion, I'm sure things will be JUST fine.

There will ALWAYS be people that know more than one does.

So what?

It is a "big deal" only if those folks believe that increased knowledge makes them "better" than you, rather than just more experienced or knowledgable.

73 de Donald
Well gee Donald we're all very proud of you, what an exceptional guy you are.

Most 13 year olds that I know are quite bright but because they are only 13 lack much of the knowlege that only comes with life. I suspect that most of us were exceptionally bright as youngsters and that had a lot to do with our being drawn to amateur radio and engineering careers.

I'm not nearly as smart as I was then but I know an awful lot more.