Being elite

[KE5FRF]

I've sensed there is a little bit of a collision occuring as of late. I believe that the newness has warn off of the February rule changes and more and more new to HF guys are spending their summer yard-mowing money on HF rigs, towers, and antennas. I believe that some of the OTers who made a personal pledge to welcome the newcomers are losing some patience.

The W,K,1x2, 2x1 callsign thread as an example. Here on QRZ the newer 1x3, 2x3 callsigns are fewer and further between on the boards http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

I hear it on the bands too, but the message boards here, hamsexy, and eHam are soap-box media for people to vent and that's been going on a lot.

I have a somewhat unique perspective. I'm a new ham and thus empathize with new ham opinions. But I'm also a traditionalist and very much agree with the OTers on many if not most topics. Some might find that wishy-washy but its how it is.


ANYWAY, I like to post long messages but I've been doing better at quasi-brevity in the past several months. Even so, here's another soap-box opinion fer-ya.

I believe that as a new member in the ranks of an established group, it is and will always be on the shoulders of the new guy to find a way to fit in. This is human nature. There is a responsibility on the part of the old guard to offer comradere but it really is vital that the new guy accept the custom of the group. If he isn't willing to do this, then it is his fault if he isn't welcomed with open arms.

I've learned this through my career and through school as a kid. Once you are established within the group it is then perhaps possible to bring new ideas or influence it in some way. Even then you must accept that change will not always be accepted or allowed to occur abruptly.

This follows the "When in Rome, do as the Roman's do" adage.

Now, I have seen in many recent posts people express disgust with the "elitist" mentallity of older hams.
Why does this bother some so? Elite is a funny word, kind of like "ignorant." The word gets misused in negative context but in its true spirit is a very meaningful.

Does anyone begrudge Tiger Woods for being elite? How about Lance Armstrong or Peyton Manning? What about authors Micheal Crichton or Stephen King? Directors Spielburg or Lucas?

Think about the circles that these top icons socialize in...Would we consider them less because they don't rub elbows with run-of-the-mill athletes, writers, or filmakers? Wouldn't we expect that they seek people of their calibur to associate with?

Now, I know that this is a hobby and that hams are a dime a dozen in relative terms. But ham radio is a competitive avocation there is no denying it. There ARE elite hams among our ranks. There are QRQ CW ops that are iconic on the bands. There are antenna experts like Straw, Hutchinson, Cebik that are fountains of knowledge. There are prolific DXers who have established recognition for operating technique and contestors who have forged new ideas of operating efficiency and skill. There are a handfull of QRZ posters who have recognizable and respected callsigns in our community. They have through years of experience established themselves among the "elite".

Being elite is an accomplishment and a worthy goal. It isn't (neccessarily) a symptom of snobbery or haughtiness.

And being elite doesn't always mean you are recognized for it. In relative terms amateurs can achieve eliteness in their local community or in a very tight nitch. You might be a software developer who contributes to ham reflectors on open source amateur software issues. You might be an expert at errecting towers in your area and gain respect as a dependable source of knowledge. You may be a boatanchor collector who is widely known for your broad knowledge of vinatge gear. You may be only considered elite by a handful of net participants who look forward to checking in to your professionally executed net every week. It may be many qualities that you are recognized for that brings you into that elite level as a radio amateur.

But here's the thing...the criteria for eliteness in this old avocation has already been measured, defined, and established many many years ago by the ones who came before you. By becoming expert or elite at some things you only serve to honour the traditions of your predecessors. You may surpass others in your skill and experience, but it is rare indeed to define a new level of eliteness that hasn't been achieved before.

I believe that what many of (you) mistake for snobbery is actually PRIDE.
These older hams came up among elite men (and women) and in days gone by were enamored of them. RESPECT for the accomplsihments of the ones who came before you was expected and unbegrudgingly offered by generations in the past. In fact, in eras gone by people looked to model themselves after the ones they considered "elite" because there was the blueprint for becoming elite oneself.

These old guys may sometimes seem crass, but they have been telling you what it means to be a proud, accomplsihed, and elite radio amateur all along.

Here is the trouble with the modern scenario that is playing before our eyes. The new crowd has been virtually handed the thing that earlier generations had to work so hard to get. And this has occured EN MASSE. Never before has such a sweeping flood of license upgrades occured. Instead of a slow trickle of new blood there is a gaping hole through which unexperienced and unproven volumes of noobs are elbowing their way in for a piece of the pie.

And these men (and women) are demanding. INSTANT RESPECT, INSTANT STATUS, INSTANT CHANGE. Maybe in some ways that is good. Maybe we need to have some changes. But my traditionalist nature says that the old step-ladder approach was better and fostered the commradere that is the tradition of our hobby.

So, my feeling is that new hams should be looking around asking the OTers what is expected of them instead of insisting on what they expect of the OTers. My feeling is that new hams and upgrades ought to spend a lot of time figuring out what being a ham has traditionally always meant and instead of butting against that mold they should strive to half-way fill it.

It doesn't mean that you have to learn CW and become a CW guru. But it does mean that you should find traditional and established roles in this hobby to strive toward assuming. It means that you should read books, gather info from the internet, learn about amateur history, pick up some electronics knowledge, master an operating skill (like code), build a kit or find a homebrew idea, write a how-to or learn about QRP. Find SOME NICHE in the hobby and strive to become elite at it!

Dump any old habits that you may have from prior experiences. The ham way of doing things has been around longer than any of us have been alive and it works WELL. If you ever owned a CB or own CB equipment, learn WHY that gear is not certified by the FCC. Learn WHY hams have a higher standard. Be proud to be a ham and dump it, leave it at the door and fuggitaboutit.

I believe that if you choose to emulate the elite and learn from them, you TOO can become elite in this hobby. Just as stock car racers have to pay dues on dirt tracks with ratted out racecars, us hams have to spend a few years knee deep in elbow grease learning the ropes. No race car driver ever went straight to the top without a little time down in the nitty gritty. No racer ever won instant respect. It takes years and a few won races to get there.

My 2, maybe 50 cents.

[VO1GXG]

I believe the way the old timers have been running the hobby is the way it should be run !

I love talking to the old timers and discussing radio for hours and hours especially since i know what they are talking about.

What i have been finding is that new licensees only know how to turn on the radio and key the mic . they don't know how radio works , the intricate parts that make a radio transmitter work ! .

Time to change the exams and make them harder, More theory less rules. We might just pull out of this unscared

[N4AUD]

Great points, Heath.

[K7JEM]

Quote[/b] ] If you ever owned a CB or own CB equipment, learn WHY that gear is not certified by the FCC.

I don't follow that. What does it mean, and why is it relevant?

Joe

[N5FOG]

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ July 25 2007,23:46)]The new crowd has been virtually handed the thing that earlier generations had to work so hard to get. And this has occured EN MASSE. Never before has such a sweeping flood of license upgrades occured. Instead of a slow trickle of new blood there is a gaping hole through which unexperienced and unproven volumes of noobs are elbowing their way in for a piece of the pie.

And these men (and women) are demanding. INSTANT RESPECT, INSTANT STATUS, INSTANT CHANGE.


The majority of new hams DON'T expect instant respect, but they also don't expect instant dis-respect either.

But because the "gaping hole in the fence" is letting in all the new ops to get "a piece of the pie" its causing allot of resentment from the traditionalist old timers.

And even thought allot of the old timers don't intent to be disrespectful to the new hams their displeasure with the changes in the licensing system and feelings they have "been cheated", gets the better of them.

Heath just from reading your posting I can see where you are letting the same thing happen to you.

Instead of saying the new ops got in under a reduced or lowered standard you have to say it was "handed" to them.

Most of the new ops don't expect to be given instant status or respect, but they also don't expect or deserve instant disrespect either but thats what allot of them are getting.

It reminds me of something one of my elmers told me when I got into ham radio. He said that "respect isn't automatic, its earned, but so is disrespect no one deserves to be treated with either unless they have earned it."



FOG

[k5jat]

I agree with FOG.

As much as a lot of the OT's will deny deny deny, they do harbor and show their resentment towards new operators. I call it the "Uphill both ways, with no shoes" syndrome.

Some of the OT's say things or act in a hurtful way, which is counter productive. They also sit around griping and moaning that the new operators don't know anything, but don't offer any Elmoring, constructive criticism, or simple advice to point them in the right direction. In fact, some tend to out right give a verbal assault. Then they wonder why the new ops get defensive. Short sightedness isn't just physical, it's psychological as well.

Until people get the corncob out and accept things as they come, or die off, this stuff will still go on. How sad...

73, Jay KE5NRH

[PA5COR]

When i got my license in 1977 there were no questionpools, there were no computers with test questions, every ham had to learn the theory and apply it, the transcievers were very costly so you got an old clunker and rebuildt it from scratch or made your own.

I'm no dxer i rather experiment on the workbench, building or restoring gear, have the occasional chat on H.F. or 6/2/70

Looking at the new hams i train for their exam, things got an lot easier for them, no hard feelings too for that.
In my training i do apply the rules they learn, some experiments on the workbench to show why the rules apply.

Going as far to learn them to solder decently, building an few simple projects.

I'm not troubled by an holier then thou mentality, every ham is equal for me, an fellow ham interested in our hobby.

The question pools there and here in Holland dumbed down new hams?, yes it did, reading the questions new hams ask here or what i hear over here.

Basic knowledge that is part of the exam is asked here meaning that the new ham didn't grasp the theory good enough to apply it in the real world.

We cannot expect new hams to buildt their own transciever anymore, but building an simple dipole and understand how to feed it should be standard for new hams to do.

Antenna tuners can be made very cheap and easy, an microphone amplifier etc no sweat.
Building your own PSU from hamfest parts
All simple established stuff you can make and save $ on.
Most important part is you learn from it and have fun building it, getting working in practice what you learned.

Do i expect respect? as human beeing, yes.
As ham? just the respect i give to all hams beeing new or old in the hobby.

We're too much focussed about our "position" in the hobby and by radiating i'm better then you because i'm an oldtimer and know more as you scare off new hams.

I have all driver licenses here, does that mean i can scare other roadusers off the road because i hold higher driver licenses?
Or do i as we all must, obey the rules for beeing on the road if that is on an bike, car or articulated lorry?

To get respect you need to earn it, not only by your maybe superior knowlewdge acuired over the years, but also how you deal with people and new hams.

Sometimes along the road, we forgot how we felt beeing an newbie...

73,

Cor

[KE5FRF]

Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ July 27 2007,01:41)]Quote[/b] ] If you ever owned a CB or own CB equipment, learn WHY that gear is not certified by the FCC.

I don't follow that. What does it mean, and why is it relevant?

Joe
I'm referring to the more and more common questions about using CB gear on the ham bands, specifically amps and import radios.

[ab0wr]

Very well written post making some very important posts.

I well remember first becoming a new Boy Scout leader. There were those who joined with me who expected the older leaders with years of experience to treat them as equals with the very same level of respect the elders gave to their fellow elder peers.

This minority of newbies resented having to collect firewood and buld fires and put them out and police the campsite and cook the food and wash the dishes and all the other things that go along with knowing how to survive in comfort in the outdoors -- while the elders sat around the campfire drinking coffee and making comments about the job the newbies were doing.

Most of this minority of the newbies eventually wound up leaving the ranks of leaders. They never did figure out that the elders had already done the things the newbies were doing and knew how to do them well. They had paid their dues. This minority of newbies just saw everything they were going through as a "hazing ritual".

The rest of us learned the things we needed to know in order to teach the youth the right way of doing things and were eventually accepted as full members of the elder circle.

I see, and you have confirmed, exactly the same attitudes here in ham radio. There are a minority of vocal newbies who have no idea of what the term "earn respect" means. They *expect* respect but have forgotten the word that preceeds it in the minds of others.

Just as it was in the Scouts, it doesn't matter if you already know how to do everything you need to know. It is a matter of demonstrating your knowledge to others so that *they* will know you have the knowledge. And "faking" it gets found out *very*, *very* quickly.

I've never seen an OT on here actively disrespect anyone. I *have* seen them put others to the test. I have seen them indicate that some newbies have not yet *earned* their respect.

So what? As you pointed out, "These old guys may sometimes seem crass, but they have been telling you what it means to be a proud, accomplsihed, and elite radio amateur all along."

Good job. You've demonstrated enough to join *my* ranks of OT's, even if we disagree over something in the future <big grin>.

tim ab0wr

[KE5FRF]

Quote[/b] ]Instead of saying the new ops got in under a reduced or lowered standard you have to say it was "handed" to them.

FOG,

Many would say MY license was "handed to me". I've been called an Extra-lite several times. I've had the supposedly or relatively easier tests pointed out to me.

But I don't let that bother me. I don't act like a Bull in a China shop. I listen, learn, and put myself forward.

Do I feel like something was taken from me when the new rules came around? NO. Actually, I feel like something was taken from YOU. I feel like something was taken from the hobby as a WHOLE. I feel that overall quality was traded for quantity. I feel this is the result we get each and every time the rules are changed to make it easier. And though I take ownership of the service and feel affected by it, my main point of sorrow comes from seeing that so many people are never going to experience the COMPLETENESS of being a ham that previous generations did. This isn't everyone, because many WILL adopt traditions. But we are seeing that so many are here to change things rather than adapt. Don't you get this?

But this post was not about code. It was about YOU (rhetorically). It was about the conflict between old timer and new. Follow me here, this is important:The code issue is just a surrogate for a broader issue of keeping the HOBBY collectively from becoming cheapened any further. It is a representation of the desire of OTers that YOU become "elite" in the traditions that they have built for you.
Think about that! They actually WANT YOU TO BE ELITE TOO!
And they are telling you what it means to be an elite ham. But many do not ot will not listen.

Think about it: When you string up that G5RV or purchase that T-match antenna tuner, you are using equipment that was designed and refined by your predecessors, many of these OTers. When transmit on your spiffy new rig, you are enjoying circuit designs that were pioneered and often designed by these fellows that give you so much angst. When you read books like the Amateur Handbook or Antenna Book, you are reading contributed materials from experts around the country/world who paved the way for you. Dozens and dozens of QRZ hams have made contributions over the years of technical writings or design concepts that in one form or another benefited the amateur community as a whole.

To honor these people, we ought to listen to and respect their advice and their concerns. We ought not keep repeating the "It's just a hobby" nonsense. We ought to see amateur radio as a journey rather than a means to an end. I myself have "EXTRA" next to my callsign in the FCC records, but there is very little EXTRA about me and I know it. My personal pursuit has been to master the code and to study antenna theory so that I can "Elmer". Maybe in a few years I will actually be worthy of my license class. maybe in a few years I will be able to call myself elite because of my contributions. I do not plan on being "just a hobbyist".


Its very simple. If WE as the "new blood" in the hobby don't find the self motivation to learn and become hams in the model of our predecessors, we only lessen the aptitude of the generations to come. If we don't take seriously the body of knowledge that is at our feet, we will not be able to pass it on like it is being passed to us. It is not enough to USE an antenna design by someone who came before...we need to spend the extra effort learning to understand it. In that way we truly honor those who paved the way!

I do not believe there is nearly as much trouble coming from the OTers as one might be led to believe. I think just as much comes from the new ranks if not more. Even this thread here was intended to smooth those bumps and encourage understanding. I may not pick and choose every word correctly but I believe my intent is obvious. Yet there will be noobs who argue and say "Its all the OTers". Take a look in the mirror. Can you learn to respect the path that was paved for you? Can you not see how rationalizing and excusing the ease of your path is not as commendable as seeking a more challenging journey? Can you not see how picking up a book even AFTER you get that big EXTRA callsign and learning some more is better than just being another signal on the bands? Don't YOU want the respect associated with that Extra or General license to have tangible meaning? What niche have you begun to explore other than "just operarting" where you might contribute? Do you have plans to truly MASTER antenna theory? Do you have plans to learn boatanchor restoration techniques and perhaps write articles for QST? Have you considered making a goal of QRQ CW skill to promote the oldest of ham traditions? When you go SK in the distant future, what will YOU be known for? What will YOU have contributed?

This is the point. I'm giving you food for thought and its up to you to eat it.

[N8UZE]

Quote[/b] ]
I believe that as a new member in the ranks of an established group, it is and will always be on the shoulders of the new guy to find a way to fit in. This is human nature. There is a responsibility on the part of the old guard to offer comradere but it really is vital that the new guy accept the custom of the group. If he isn't willing to do this, then it is his fault if he isn't welcomed with open arms.

I've learned this through my career and through school as a kid. Once you are established within the group it is then perhaps possible to bring new ideas or influence it in some way. Even then you must accept that change will not always be accepted or allowed to occur abruptly.


Very wise approach. #If more people realized that ham radio is just like other aspects of life in this regard, there would be a lot less friction.

As far as the elite and elitism goes, we have to keep in mind that English usage is a bit inconsistent.

To be or strive to be one of the elite (one of the best of the group) is great and a goal worth pursuing.

However, practicing elitism (the belief that they deserve special privileges by being one of the elite) is not generally a good thing.

[va7aax]

I believe that it shouldnt matter if the operator doesnt do 13 WPM CW, know how to build even a 2N2222A oscillator or know how to design a 160-10m ,Transciever . what should matter is the on-air operating. New people are trying to do CW , they might not be really perfect but they are trying.

[N8UZE]

To continue on.

In addition, in an activity like ham radio (or scouting) being one of the elite, actually comes with the responsibility to assist others to also become one of the elite.

The "special privilege" of moaning and groaning about the new person's lack of knowledge and abilities is unacceptable and is elitism. It is also very counterproductive.

As far as training and elmering goes, no one has the right to denigrate the new people even if those new people are disrespectful. We have to lead by example and teach by active positive elmering not drive people by the whip so to speak. Unfortunately some have no concept of how to deal with new hams.

[N2RJ]

Who exactly is an elite?

W4RNL, ON4UN, OH2BH, N2MJI, K3LR, G3HB are all elites.

AG4YO, N5PVL, ab0wr etc are not.

Neither am I.

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (va7aax @ July 27 2007,08:45)]I believe that it shouldnt matter if the operator doesnt do 13 WPM CW, know how to build even a 2N2222A oscillator or know how to design a 160-10m ,Transciever . what should matter is the on-air operating. New people are trying to do CW , they might not be really perfect but they are trying.
CW I could agree with you. The rest, I disagree... on air operating is just one part of the hobby.

Technical knowledge is required to pass the test after all.

If you throw away technical knowledge the hobby is pretty much gone.

[ky5u]

Well I have to say that "lead by example" doesn't work on some of the goobs. Regardless I think on the air we need to be polite to everyone. On QRZ we can discuss the real issues behind why people don't take example. Some are just stupid and as the comedian Ron White says, you can't fix stupid. Some are just dense, like the guys on the air using CB lingo when the air is filled with good example. Some are so self centered that right and wrong are relative to their own internal alien planet. Some are lazy and unmotivated. AR to them is a hobby where you don't have to expend any energey including using your brain.

That said there are many good new Amateurs who want to learn, will listen to guidence and recognize good example. What you need to watch is how the low-life Hams try to make criticizsm of their doofus activities an indictment of the really cool and energetic new Amateurs. In essence they are trying to use good new Amateurs as human shields for their pathetic existance. Just so those who are dense don't misunderstand, those who proudly flaunt ignorance and laziness and those who support them are the scourge of AR. Have a nice day!

[W5HTW]

There are two separate issues here, actually. The most difficult one is resentment, but not at the new ham who "got into the hobby cheaply." That isn't his fault, certainly not on an individual basis. Sure, there are those who say on their butts for 15 years, waiting for the code test to go away, so they could move up the ladder, and I'll be honest, they get zero respect from me, and they never will. Still, that doesn't mean I would not work them on the air, even if there were ways to figure out who they are. But I see them as slackers, unwilling to do what a few hundred thousand before them did as a matter of course, because it was the requirement. They waited for the mountain to be whittled down so they could climb it, and that doesn't make them any kind of mountain climber.

But the average new guy isn't guilty (and, yes, that IS the right word) of that. Still, though it wasn't his choice, he got into ham radio without meeting the requirements that those many thousands before did meet, even if they did not like Morse code.

There is the first problem. We OT's resent that rules change. And we are angry at the FCC and the ARRL for it. We can argue with the ARRL, but we can't seem to affect the FCC. (We may not have much effect on the ARRL, either!) So, like a wounded dog on the roadway, we strike out at anything we can reach. That's wrong. I know it. And I would never do it on the air. But yes, I am guilty (again, the right word) of striking out in that 'pain' of seeing my long loved hobby degraded (in my opinion) into something so much like CB. Yet I know it is not that individual new ham, or new upgrade, that I resent. He didn't do anything wrong! I am sure that, in time, I will accept him, in plurality, as I accept any ham.

I will never accept the slacker, and the more vocal he/she was regarding "I'm gonna sit on my butt and wait for the requirements to meet MY requirement" the less likely he is to be accepted into anything I call ham radio, from my viewpoint.

The second issue is that amateur radio was changed, has changed. Not only did the testing slack off, but the technical standards went away. Largely that is not the fault of anyone, though. That is simply "time." Amateur radio, as AE6IP puts it, is an anachronistic hobby. It is "radio", darn it, and "radio" is antique. The very word drives some people away. We do "radio" today on the web.

The only way the hobby can grow, or let's say, expand (I'm not sure growing would be the right word at all) is to change the way it operates. That means making it less difficult to get into, less challenging, and more appealing to the masses. And there are two aspects of that. The first is the FCC wanting to become as uninvolved in amateur radio as it can be, and the second is the ARRL's need for "more pork sausages, Mom, more pork sausages." More ham.

The FCC is not going to change except to back further away from amateur radio, to make it uncomplicated for them, regardless of how it affects us, and to unburden themselves of routine activities relating to us. The ARRL is going to try various techniques to make it more appealing to larger numbers of people, as that is a financial (and controlling) bottom line.

The ARRL push has led us through the Family Radio phase, the cell phone phase, and the EMCOMM phase, all in efforts to "recruit more hams." We can only guess what their next recruitment push will be, but so far none of them have been beneficial to the real amateur radio as a technical and specialty hobby. All of them have led us away from the niche format, to a 'for the masses' format. I can only guess that trend will continue.

I do not dislike or disrespect the new ham/upgrade on an andividual basis. I kind of view it as loving to work in my garden, and the volcano lava bed is expanding and covering my land. I'm angry, but there is no one to "be angry at." The FCC, even, is an entity, not an individual. I can't pick a name and say "I hate him." I can't even do that with the ARRL. They are faceless entities. And it is the faceless entity in amateur radio that gets my anger. Unfortunately, it is on display for the new ham to see. I don't like it either. But I have seen my hobby nearly disappear, and I have no one to target. So like that wounded dog, I even bite the hand that feeds me.

The exception is the guy who said "I ain't gonna get into it until it fits ME. I won't fit it." That is, to me, the same as the immigrant who comes here to change America to the place he left, rather than to join the America he now lives in and uses the benefits. Respect? He doesn't know the word.

Ed

[KA4DPO]

I'm not elite. I am very experienced in amateur radio.

I poke a lot of fun on this board and occasionally hammer those who need it but if someone comes to me for help they will get it in a straight forward and respectful manner regardless of who they are or how long they have been licensed.

Also, if I don't know I'll tell you and try to direct you to someone or some place where you can find the answer, I don't BS people and I have no time for those that do.

That doesn't make me elite, just a guy who has made a lot of the stupid mistakes you can make in this hobby and hopefully learned something from them. In 41 years in the hobby I have learned from other amateurs, some of them famous, all of them really good in their own right. Please don't call me elite.

[KE5FRF]

Quote[/b] (va7aax @ July 27 2007,08:45)]I believe that it shouldnt matter if the operator doesnt do 13 WPM CW, know how to build even a 2N2222A oscillator or know how to design a 160-10m ,Transciever . what should matter is the on-air operating. New people are trying to do CW , they might not be really perfect but they are trying.
I agree to a certain extent but I don't buy the "on the air operating" argument.

I will argue this point til I'm blue in the face. Being a ham is not just about operating. Granted for thousands of hams this is the every day thing that most of us do, but there SHOULD be something more. This isn't about judgements because I'll agree that the only way to judge someone is by their demonstrated behavior on the air.

But I'll add that there are two kinds of hams. One EARNS my deepest respect while the other one is "just there occupying bandwidth". (That is tongue in cheek to mean "just operators")...There is absolutely nothing wrong with being the very basic ham and doing the very basic ham things. Kinda like carpentry. A carpenter can be a master at his craft an endeavor to build (or possess the skills to build) fine furniture and cabinets. Or he can just be a guy who makes mail-boxes and bird-houses for kicks from pre-planned templates. Either way both carpenters have every right to do what they do, but would you call the bird-house builder who can do nothing more a MASTER CARPENTER?

This the key that gets the OTers in a ruffle. American hams have by tradition considered the EXTRA to be an elite license class. That doesn't mean that every Extra that came down the pike was in a higher league. It just meant that traditionally one could expect a reasonable amount of knowledge and experience of them. It also usually meant that they had paid dues. And more often than not, it meant that they were true experts and routinely made some contribution to the hobby either among their local peers or in some niche or another. This change in tradition has not been JUST a result of recent events. Its been going this way for 20 or more years. But most of these older guys are plenty old enough to know that things are different now. I don't blame them for becrying a sense of loss.

And their loss is OUR loss. We may never understand it because things seem OK to us as they are. But what we never see, we'll never miss. They are telling us things COULD be better if we all got on the same track. They are giving us the blueprint to make our license have deeper meaning (eliteness)

[KA4DPO]

Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ July 27 2007,09:53)]The exception is the guy who said "I ain't gonna get into it until it fits ME. #I won't fit it." # That is, to me, the same as the immigrant who comes here to change America to the place he left, rather than to join the America he now lives in and uses the benefits. # Respect? #He doesn't know the word.

Ed
Ed, this is almost a different subject but man are you ever on the money with that statement. We're up to our eyeballs in "immigrants" who don't want to assimilate into america. They just want to live here and take from us while demanding respect. You and I share the same philosphy on that subject.

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (KA4DPO @ July 27 2007,10:00)]Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ July 27 2007,09:53)]The exception is the guy who said "I ain't gonna get into it until it fits ME. #I won't fit it." # That is, to me, the same as the immigrant who comes here to change America to the place he left, rather than to join the America he now lives in and uses the benefits. # Respect? #He doesn't know the word.

Ed
Ed, this is almost a different subject but man are you ever on the money with that statement. #We're up to our eyeballs in "immigrants" who don't want to assimilate into america. #They just want to live here and take from us while demanding respect. #You and I share the same philosphy on that subject.
As an immigrant who tries to fit in, sometimes you just hit a brick wall.

If you weren't born here, or aren't white/black you can't fit in in many places.

So what do you do? Go and be lonely? Or find people like you? I did the latter.

I agree, the people who are trying to change the culture and force their language and customs on everyone are bad for society, but those who are rejected from American society and simply associate with their own kind? Nothing wrong in that, IMO.

[KD6NIG]

There is a difference between being elite because of your actions and doing well, and being elite because you have code, or you've been doing something for 20+ years, or whatever.

The differences are easy to spot, and I've found it quite easy to ignore the ones using it to put down others. Its usually so obvious and blatant that you can't miss it.

Those people are easy to ignore or avoid, which is what I do. I've heard it on repeaters around here. I simply avoid it. I have been chastised once on a repeater, and I gave my callsign as legally required and exited the conversation. The person continued ranting afterward, but didn't get the courtesy of a reply. If someones ego needs feeding and thats the only way, they won't be getting any feeding from me.

I've heard some odd stuff on the air also. I either spin the VFO or turn it off now. Ham Radio is a hobby, and I have others too. If its not working for me at the moment, I find something else to do.

[KE5FRF]

Quote[/b] (KA4DPO @ July 27 2007,09:53)]I'm not elite. #I am very experienced in amateur radio. #

I poke a lot of fun on this board and occasionally hammer those who need it but if someone comes to me for help they will get it in a straight forward and respectful manner regardless of who they are or how long they have been licensed.

Also, if I don't know I'll tell you and try to direct you to someone or some place where you can find the answer, I don't BS people and I have no time for those that do.

That doesn't make me elite, just a guy who has made a lot of the stupid mistakes you can make in this hobby and hopefully learned something from them. #In 41 years in the hobby I have learned from other amateurs, some of them famous, all of them really good in their own right. #Please don't call me elite.
I use the term elite very loosely here.

As I said, I am not elite and probably never will be. I only want to be respected. When I operate, I want to reach the day when someone hears my callsign and a CQ and recognizes me as a pro-active ham and a fine operator...someone they have worked before and shared interesting conversation with...someone they might listen for again. I'd like to have my callsign noted for something special, even if its just a single QST contribution at some point. Even if its for being a top-flight CW op (which is my primary goal)...I do believe I can achieve an elite reputation in some niche in this hobby. I believe ALL of us can if we have the motivation and half the sense of a monkey. It isn't enough for me to just operate. I could do that with a CB for crying out loud. There are so many things that we can focus on in this hobby, its so diverse that its mindboggling. Even something as simple as maintaining a good repeater system or a well run EchoLink node can be hall-marks of eliteness on some level. That may get a chuckle out of some but at least someone willing to put forth the effort to provide that service to the ham community is doing something worthwhile and GIVING BACK instead of just take-take-taking.

When I turn on my rig and transmit a carrier, I am occupying bandwidth. I am taking up precious space that for that moment in time belongs to me and the guy I'm chatting with. As a licensed ham I have every right to that space just as anyone else does. But if I'm going to take up space on the bands, I want to be someone who stands out for positive reasons, not just another callsign looking to add a QSO to my log. If that is what the hobby is boiling down to or destined to become, it just seems so sad to me. This is what motivates me to say the things I do on this message board. I think 90% of the time I'm as helpful as they come. But the other 10% of the time I'm here to make a point. I'm here to show my fellow new hams that being a ham is way much more than just having a piece of paper on your wall.

[KA4DPO]

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ July 27 2007,10:16)]Quote[/b] (KA4DPO @ July 27 2007,09:53)]I'm not elite. #I am very experienced in amateur radio. #

I poke a lot of fun on this board and occasionally hammer those who need it but if someone comes to me for help they will get it in a straight forward and respectful manner regardless of who they are or how long they have been licensed.

Also, if I don't know I'll tell you and try to direct you to someone or some place where you can find the answer, I don't BS people and I have no time for those that do.

That doesn't make me elite, just a guy who has made a lot of the stupid mistakes you can make in this hobby and hopefully learned something from them. #In 41 years in the hobby I have learned from other amateurs, some of them famous, all of them really good in their own right. #Please don't call me elite.
I use the term elite very loosely here.

As I said, I am not elite and probably never will be. I only want to be respected. When I operate, I want to reach the day when someone hears my callsign and a CQ and recognizes me as a pro-active ham and a fine operator...
I feel the same way and try to earn that respect every time I get on the air. Just because your an OT doesn't mean you automatically get respect. You have to set the example.

[KI4ITI]

Quote[/b] ]Most of the new ops don't expect to be given instant status or respect, but they also don't expect or deserve instant disrespect either but thats what allot of them are getting.

Well, what you have is a set of gentleman OTs who have really taken ownership in amateur radio and have put a great deal of themselves into bettering the hobby and their own skill. Doing that was hard work for them, and they're proud of their accomplishments and what status in the hobby represented.

But, they don't control who gets status. The FCC does - and the FCC has made a lot of decisions that brush aside the traditions and accomplishments of these who have been with the hobby most of their lives. Now a blacktop road has been built to the mountaintop that they spent years climbing, and a bunch of bright-faced new hams are driving up for the afternoon and having tailgate parties. Some of them are good ops, some not... but it really doesn't matter. Can you understand why some of the OTs who climbed with their bare hands are a little bitter? It's kind of like having your favorite childhood sandlot turned into a strip mall. It doesn't excuse bad behavior, but a little understanding and sensitivity among us newbies can go a long way.

Other new guys: grow some skin. Nowhere in the foundational documents of our respective governments are you guaranteed the right to never be disrespected. Next time you're abused by a grumpy OT, first figure out whether he has a legitimate complaint with you and try to fix it. If he's just spewing some of that bitterness, accept it with a smile and a "yes, sir." Break his stereotype of you and you might just make a friend. If he never comes around, just move on with a shrug and a smile, or sign with 73 and QSY.

Belligerently asserting your right to be accepted won't get you accepted, and will only fuel the fire.

And good article, Heath.

73
Josh KI4ITI

[KE5FRF]

OK, thanks Josh!

I think some people may have some gears turning in their minds (hopefully) and that was my intent.

One more thought. I'll say it again...I'm not elite. But I feel that I AM becoming respected on the bands, especially CW, as I operate and meet more and more people. I've got some improvements to make like timely QSLing, but I feel each and every QSO like most guys will **remember me** next time. I have had multiple, multiple CW ops answer my call over and over to pick up on conversations from last week or last month. That is a source of pride for me.

The internet is not ham radio, but I feel that I have been accepted by most of the OTers on this board (outside of political threads where disagreement is the norm)...I know I'm not an OTer but I feel that I'm recognized as an advocate of ham radio's traditions. I've even recieved e-mails from people who have read my posts in made me feel very welcome. There are literally hundreds of new ops on this board who have demonstrated the same acceptance as I. The common denominator is that these folks have come into the hobby and let tradition mold them instead of trying to change tradition. Even some codeless ops are gaining respect because they are learning the code or learning about antennas or some other niche topic and trying to share what they have learned. The ones that get confronted are the ones who allow them selves to be confrontational. "Its only a hobby, I can do it my way, I'm just here to talk on my radio so kiss it" mentallity. These are the ones who are LOSING respect each and every day.

And BTW, everyone needs a sense of humor. Charlie and others (and even I on occasion) are guilty of poking fun. If you only knew, most of these guys are the ones who'd GIVE you a spare rig if you said you needed one. most of these guys are the most friendly. They are poking at you to make you THINK. They are using humor and sometimes abrasiveness to ruffle your feathers but also to make a point. You can either fall in their trap or actually LISTEN and learn. Learn to laugh.

[WA9SVD]

IMHO, Heath has a very good point. All too many people, too many times, use the term "elite" in a derogatory, negative manner.
But "elite" doesn't automatically mean snobbish or indicate a position of higher social standing; it does (or should) indicate a higher level of training and expertise.

Just as the Navy Seals (or the Green Berets in the VietNam War era) are considered "elite," due to their higher level of training and specialized tactics, it doesn't mean any other military personnel are somehow "inferior."
At one time, (prior to incentive licensing) Advanced and Amateur Extra Class licensees were considered "elite," because they had proven a higher level of education or knowledge by means of a written exam (and Morse proficiency,) yet they were justy like the rest; no additional privileges, nothing but the admiration of others for having achieved the higher class license. That, and the personal satisfaction of having achieved a higher level of training and knowledge.
And when there were no special "Extra" (or Advanced) frequencies, there was no cliquish behaviour where some snobbish operators could openly advertise they only wanted to talk to other Extras, everyone else keep out. With incentive licensing, the "Private Country Club" attitude was created, in the mind of some. And THAT created a disrespect for the true "elitism" in Amateur Radio, with the POSITIVE connotation.

Yes, some of us (still) consider ourselves "elite;" (hopefully I'll achieve that level some day) but if taken in a positive way, it can only improve Amateur Radio. Because it's the elite that are SUPPOSED to uphold the best operating techniques, the best technical expertise, and YES, in many ways uphold and propagate the rich traditions of Amateur Radio, and be an example for ALL the other operators, regardless of license class held.

[KI4ODO]

Quote[/b] (VO1GXG @ July 26 2007,22:17)]I believe the way the old timers have been running the hobby is the way it should be run !

I love talking to the old timers and discussing radio for hours and hours especially since i know what they are talking about.

What i have been finding is that new licensees only know how to turn on the radio and key the mic . they don't know how radio works , the intricate parts that make a radio transmitter work ! .

Time to change the exams and make them harder, More theory less rules. We might just pull out of this unscared
I tend to agree. I was very unprepaired for anything beyond "plug and play" with the current system. No electronics background here, and nothing in the current material to make you learn anything beyond what a diode or capacitor is. I am learning as I go now, but have been told by a couple of old timers, "sure I'll help you, but you really should have known this before even getting your license", and I agree with them. That's why I have not upgraded to Extra, I feel woefully unprepaired. I can pass the test with a little study, but I won't know what an extra should know. I'm still trying to catch up to know what a general should know. But I'm trying, and doing. I'll get there. But the current system has not done me any favors by making it easy. It being that easy has made it harder for me.

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (KI4ODO @ July 27 2007,09:04)]Quote[/b] (VO1GXG @ July 26 2007,22:17)]I believe the way the old timers have been running the hobby is the way it should be run !

I love talking to the old timers and discussing radio for hours and hours especially since i know what they are talking about.

What i have been finding is that new licensees only know how to turn on the radio and key the mic . they don't know how radio works , the intricate parts that make a radio transmitter work ! .

Time to change the exams and make them harder, More theory less rules. We might just pull out of this unscared
I tend to agree. I was very unprepaired for anything beyond "plug and play" with the current system. No electronics background here, and nothing in the current material to make you learn anything beyond what a diode or capacitor is. I am learning as I go now, but have been told by a couple of old timers, "sure I'll help you, but you really should have known this before even getting your license", and I agree with them. That's why I have not upgraded to Extra, I feel woefully unprepaired. I can pass the test with a little study, but I won't know what an extra should know. I'm still trying to catch up to know what a general should know. But I'm trying, and doing. I'll get there. But the current system has not done me any favors by making it easy. It being that easy has made it harder for me.
You touched on an important point: a lot of "newbies" are asking (some very) basic questions. And YES, in the past, much of it IS material OT's had to know BEFORE they got their license, because it was material that was actually (or at least potentially) on the exams, and there were no question pools. And yes, it DOES cause some frustration by the OT's and OF's. But the frustration is REALLY at the current system for the most part, and not at the new licensees personally. The newbies can't help the situation, as THEY didn't make out the exams or decide what material is and isn't covered.
So the newbies need to show some patience and tolerance for the OT's and even the OF's, and they will be willing to help the new licensees develop into good operators.

[KI4ODO]

it is frustrating and often embarrassing for us as well. I had one fellow tell me on a hook up just before I got my general, "well it's a two conductor wire, so you'll need this plug, just solder it on there" Solder? #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif #I had to get him to teach me to solder, that's embarrassing. Then recently I had a guy tell me to check this old keyer I have that doesn't work by checking all the diodes with an ohm meter, sounds simple enough right? What if you have never used an ohm meter? Very, very embarrassing, but I learned both times. I'm gonna keep learning because now I have a taste of what if feels like to be able to do it myself, and I like that. The system did nothing to help me get there, but I WANT to know what a general should. And I WILL. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Does it mean I'm a poor ham, no. Does it mean I have some work to do, YES. I have to make up for what I didn't learn to get my ticket. There is much more to this than flipping on a switch and talking. I know that now, and it has become much more interesting now that I'm learning more than how to use a radio.

You know what though, both of those times I was told, "well, may as well learn it now, you need to know, let's do this". That helps.

[KE5FRF]

Quote[/b] (KI4ODO @ July 27 2007,11:30)]it is frustrating and often embarrassing for us as well. I had one fellow tell me on a hook up just before I got my general, "well it's a two conductor wire, so you'll need this plug, just solder it on there" Solder? #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif #I had to get him to teach me to solder, that's embarrassing. Then recently I had a guy tell me to check this old keyer I have that doesn't work by checking all the diodes with an ohm meter, sounds simple enough right? What if you have never used an ohm meter? Very, very embarrassing, but I learned both times. I'm gonna keep learning because now I have a taste of what if feels like to be able to do it myself, and I like that. The system did nothing to help me get there, but I WANT to know what a general should. And I WILL. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Does it mean I'm a poor ham, no. Does it mean I have some work to do, YES. I have to make up for what I didn't learn to get my ticket. There is much more to this than flipping on a switch and talking. I know that now, and it has become much more interesting now that I'm learning more than how to use a radio.

You know what though, both of those times I was told, "well, may as well learn it now, you need to know, let's do this". That helps.
Bravo!!!

That is THE spirit.

[KC2PBJ]

Just as acceptance must be earned, designation as a member of the elite is similarly earned by serving as an Elmer and by personal example and leadership. #The people that I've met on the air, regardless of their age or date of first licensing have been more than helpful and patient as I improve my skills (CW and other operating areas)along with my personal Elmers. #These are the true elite operators who are willing share their abilities and experience so that we can earn our place in the hobby in the years to come. #The nay-sayers on internet sites will always have their own axe to brandish and many will never accept the newcomers. #Terms such as dumbed-down, pig farmers, CB button pushers, Extra Lights, General Lights, etc. don't improve our operating skills and technical understanding or benefit our chosen avocation - just an example of change-resistant behavior and personal self-satisfying grudge. Besides, we're not going to go away despite the slings and arrows of outrage and deresion cast our way.#The on-the-air help, guidance, friendship, and the occasional correction is what helps me (and many others) to continue the process of acceptance into membership in the amateur radio fraternity. The choice is in the hands of the experienced ops - for the betterment or detriment of all of us. For the rare on-the-air diatribe, that's why its so easy to change frequencies and work someone else.

[nq3x]

I, too, utterly fail to see what's so wrong with being "elite."

Some years ago, I had the good fortune to earn the coveted Ranger tab while serving in the US Army. (Some might say this is a product of too much testosterone and too little grey matter, but that's neither here nor there!) Rangers are considered elite troops, much like Seals and Special Forces and Marine Force Recon, because the initial qualification phase is quite difficult, and training after qualification remains at a very difficult level.

That leads to a certain amount of snottiness. Once you qualify as one of the finest light infantrymen the world has ever seen,it's extremely difficult to look at a track-toad with anything other than contempt, or, on a good day, pity. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

And you know what? That's no bad thing. In order to function in that micro-society, it is essential that you believe in your own invincibility.

There is a wonderful book out there called In Defense of Elitism. I recommend it.

Amateur radio is a different story, as others have stated. I just thought I'd offer up a thought or two.

[KI4ODO]

I was a martial arts instructor for years. And striving to be the best was a good thing. And you know that yes, you had more experience than the "white belts" and there is nothing wrong with that, you earned it, and so will they.
# Even after we pass the test, there is a lot of things we can "earn" in this hobby. We can earn the knowledge and ability to elmer a new ham. We can earn the respect of our elmers when we put forth an effort to learn. There are guys I am around now who I consider "black belt hams" I want to be a black belt ham to, but I have to earn it, no test or license class will give it to me. I have to earn it just like they did, by learning and doing.
This goes far beyond testing requirements, it boils down to personal desire to be better at something, in this case, ham radio. Such is anything worth doing in life.

[va7aax]

Quote[/b] (va7aax @ July 27 2007,06:45)]I believe that it shouldnt matter if the operator doesnt do 13 WPM CW, know how to build even a 2N2222A oscillator or know how to design a 160-10m ,Transciever . what should matter is the on-air operating. New people are trying to do CW , they might not be really perfect but they are trying.
although i said that electronics wasnt important, even i love to homebrew abd build my own simple gear but there are others that dont think the same way. there are people who do lots of EMCOMM and public service but they dont have the technical side. that doesnt have to mean there are not "true" radio Amateurs.

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (nq3x @ July 27 2007,10:03)]I, too, utterly fail to see what's so wrong with being "elite."
It requires a level of effort that those who are un-motivated resent. They want to think of themselves as special without working for it.

[KE5FRF]

Quote[/b] (KI4ODO @ July 27 2007,12:07)]I was a martial arts instructor for years. And striving to be the best was a good thing. And you know that yes, you had more experience than the "white belts" and there is nothing wrong with that, you earned it, and so will they.
# Even after we pass the test, there is a lot of things we can "earn" in this hobby. We can earn the knowledge and ability to elmer a new ham. We can earn the respect of our elmers when we put forth an effort to learn. There are guys I am around now who I consider "black belt hams" I want to be a black belt ham to, but I have to earn it, no test or license class will give it to me. I have to earn it just like they did, by learning and doing.
Amen.

And those white belt martial arts students (a hobby or sport BTW) do not join the class and tell the sensei (sp?) that they think learning to do "kata" is stupid. They don't refuse to do it and demand that they go straight into real fighting techniques. They master the "disciplines" of the art first. They patiently seek the wisdom and experience of the sensei (Elmer) and attempt to emulate him. If the sensei criticizes them they respect his criticism. After all, he is the one with the knowledge and they are the student thirsting for it.

The only difference is that many (not all) new hams do not have the thirst for the knowledge. This is a culture change from the traditions of the hobby. They make excuses that the avocation "is only a hobby". They do not have respect for the traditions and history. They do not have the discipline of the martial arts student. Instead of joining a group and becoming part of it they intend to be islands unto themselves and choose to do it "their way."

And I'll also admonish that Elmer tradition is dying too, but I'm not sure if the chicken or the egg was here first. I know that the word "Elmer" is kind of a PC word invented by the ARRL (which is actually a good thing in a way) but it DOES have real roots in the hobby. Hams have always been known for getting their first taste for the hobby through visiting the shack of another and learning the basics from this mentor. Call it what you will but this IS a tradition.

As Elmers, the OTers and new guys like myself who take the role at times do need to be "the big ones" and ignore the folly of the few. Well, maybe not ignore but at least be patient. The FCC has determined the course of things. We need to realize that the idea of a logical license structure is long gone. Most of you/us who put forth effort to learn the basics and advanced concepts of the hobby would probably be doing the same thing if you were newly joining the hobby today. Can any of you OTs honestly say that if you had gotten your license yesterday that you wouldn't be studying for Extra within a week? So now we have a hobby with no apprenticeship period. Lets make the best of what we have.

[KI4ODO]

Years from now you guys can look back and say, "I knew ODO when he was just a new general, the guy could barely solder, now he's the greatest ham ever" " he can send 159 wpm with one hand and build a qrp rig with the other" #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[N2RJ]

I was a martial arts student, and got really good at it. I was even a junior instructor at one time. Kata was a lot of fun, and people would wonder why I was doing that weird dance in our yard.

And while I do think that some of the principles can carry to AR, I don't necessarily think that we should have as rigid a structure as they do.

For example, if you are late for training, your sensei made you do 10 pushups for every 5 minutes you are late.

Those who got there early? We had to sweep the dojo (the floor of a community center actually).

The actual training was approximately 2 hours per session, sometimes more if we were doing tournament prep.

It is in stark contrast to AR. Ham radio is for the most part a casual activity, and you are given a great deal of flexibility. In other words, you mess up, no big deal.

If you notice, even people who are celebrities are just another average Joe on ham radio. Joe Walsh is just "Joe", Art Bell is just "Art", Walter Cronkite is just "Walt" and so on.

In martial arts, the slackers drop out on their own. We used to only kick out people who had discipline problems, such as the guys who would pick fights on the street or come to training drunk.

In AR, I believe that the slackers will lose interest as well. Those that are bad behaved? The FCC will deal with them.

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ July 27 2007,10:45)]I was a martial arts student, and got really good at it. I was even a junior instructor at one time. Kata was a lot of fun, and people would wonder why I was doing that weird dance in our yard.

And while I do think that some of the principles can carry to AR, I don't necessarily think that we should have as rigid a structure as they do.

For example, if you are late for training, your sensei made you do 10 pushups for every 5 minutes you are late.

Those who got there early? We had to sweep the dojo (the floor of a community center actually).

The actual training was approximately 2 hours per session, sometimes more if we were doing tournament prep.

It is in stark contrast to AR. Ham radio is for the most part a casual activity, and you are given a great deal of flexibility. In other words, you mess up, no big deal.

If you notice, even people who are celebrities are just another average Joe on ham radio. Joe Walsh is just "Joe", Art Bell is just "Art", Walter Cronkite is just "Walt" and so on.

In martial arts, the slackers drop out on their own. We used to only kick out people who had discipline problems, such as the guys who would pick fights on the street or come to training drunk.

In AR, I believe that the slackers will lose interest as well. Those that are bad behaved? The FCC will deal with them.
No martial arts here, but I was a volly firefighter up until about 5 years ago. Did it for over 30 years and in some busy areas with alot of fires. It wasn't hard to spot the lazy ones. Most just figured out it was too hard and quit. I remember one guy who I worked with about 10 years ago. He was "Joe Fireman" to everyone, but whenever we had a real fire, his air mask would mysteriously not work or he'd sprain an ankle so he would not have to make an interior attack team. But back at the station he sure talked the talk. He even looked great in his fire clothes. LOL!

[N8UZE]

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ July 27 2007,13:28)]Quote[/b] (KI4ODO @ July 27 2007,12:07)]I was a martial arts instructor for years. And striving to be the best was a good thing. And you know that yes, you had more experience than the "white belts" and there is nothing wrong with that, you earned it, and so will they.
# Even after we pass the test, there is a lot of things we can "earn" in this hobby. We can earn the knowledge and ability to elmer a new ham. We can earn the respect of our elmers when we put forth an effort to learn. There are guys I am around now who I consider "black belt hams" I want to be a black belt ham to, but I have to earn it, no test or license class will give it to me. I have to earn it just like they did, by learning and doing.
Amen.

#And those white belt martial arts students (a hobby or sport BTW) do not join the class and tell the sensei (sp?) that they think learning to do "kata" is stupid. They don't refuse to do it and demand that they go straight into real fighting techniques. They master the "disciplines" of the art first. They patiently seek the wisdom and experience of the sensei (Elmer) and attempt to emulate him. If the sensei criticizes them they respect his criticism. After all, he is the one with the knowledge and they are the student thirsting for it.
I too taught martial arts for awhile and actually had a few (a very few) come in and try to say kata were stupid and questioned why they should have to learn them.

Generally the cure was easy though. #I'd have one of the students who was still a white belt but had been in the class for a few months, go through a basic kata and query that student on exactly what each move meant, why it was done that way, and the importance of the details (e.g. why the wrist is to be kept straight in a punch). #Of course I would pick a student for this that I knew had diligently absorbed all this in the training and was also good at sparring. #Then have that student spar with the "doubter".

This approach served several purposes. #One it showed the existing student knew his/her stuff. #It reinforced this information for other students in the class. #It impressed and intimidated the "doubter" somewhat. #Then the sparring with the "doubter" convinced not only him/her that kata training was worthwhile but also reinforced it for the rest of the class.

[WB2WIK]

Not sure how to define "elite," but I know it when I don't hear it.

And I'm not hearing it from many newbies.

It's fine with me that people don't want to learn code. I work "phone," too, and enjoy it.

May be just my bad luck, but it seems to me I'm hearing a lot more operators today who have such poor operating habits that I can't continue a QSO with them --I try to explain what I believe is needed to exchange information and make a real "QSO," but they're not getting it. I'll move on and work somebody else. It's frustrating.

I've had guys answer my CQ by just using their callsign, maybe slightly off frequency. Two strikes: One for not giving my callsign first so I'd be sure they're actually calling me (and not someone else), and a second one for not knowing how to properly tune in their radio. My first question is, "W5XYZ, are you calling me?" and if they answer, "Yes," I immediately say, "It would be best if you said my callsign first, so I'd know that..." and then proceed. If they're off frequency I usually ask, "Is your R.I.T. or offset tuning turned on?" and they usually either don't know what I mean, or answer "no." When the real answer is "yes."

As a long-time ham I've worked "newbies" all along, for 40 years now (I won't count my first two years, when I was also a "newbie") and don't ever remember these operational issues being anywhere near as bad as they are today.

The absolute worst I hear are on 10 meters.

WB2WIK/6

[kj3n]

Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ July 27 2007,14:31)]The absolute worst I hear are on 10 meters.
Oh, now there's a stretch. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

*piiinnnggg*

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ July 27 2007,11:31)]...don't ever remember these operational issues being anywhere near as bad as they are today.

The absolute worst I hear are on 10 meters.

WB2WIK/6
Wonder why?

[kc2orw]

Quote[/b] (kj3n @ July 27 2007,13:47)]*piiinnnggg*
Well some elites are worth listening to, others... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

All you can do is listen a bit to figure out which is which, sometimes you only need five minutes to figure it out http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[KA4DPO]

Quote[/b] (kj3n @ July 27 2007,15:47)]Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ July 27 2007,14:31)]The absolute worst I hear are on 10 meters.
Oh, now there's a stretch. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

*piiinnnggg*
Not really..

[WB2WIK]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ July 27 2007,14:11)]Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ July 27 2007,11:31)]...don't ever remember these operational issues being anywhere near as bad as they are today.

The absolute worst I hear are on 10 meters.

WB2WIK/6
Wonder why?
Maybe because new ham licenses come in Crackerjack boxes?

[KA4DPO]

Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ July 27 2007,16:26)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ July 27 2007,14:11)]Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ July 27 2007,11:31)]...don't ever remember these operational issues being anywhere near as bad as they are today.

The absolute worst I hear are on 10 meters.

WB2WIK/6
Wonder why?
Maybe because new ham licenses come in Crackerjack boxes?
WB2WIK is a eeleetist.

Eveybody know's they come on the back of korn flake boxes. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[WB2WIK]

Quote[/b] (KA4DPO @ July 27 2007,14:34)]Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ July 27 2007,16:26)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ July 27 2007,14:11)]Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ July 27 2007,11:31)]...don't ever remember these operational issues being anywhere near as bad as they are today.

The absolute worst I hear are on 10 meters.

WB2WIK/6
Wonder why?
Maybe because new ham licenses come in Crackerjack boxes?
WB2WIK is a eeleetist. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
No, I was just stating a fact.

They also seem to come in Corn Flakes. I choked on one this morning. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KA4DPO]

Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ July 27 2007,16:36)]Quote[/b] (KA4DPO @ July 27 2007,14:34)]Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ July 27 2007,16:26)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ July 27 2007,14:11)]Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ July 27 2007,11:31)]...don't ever remember these operational issues being anywhere near as bad as they are today.

The absolute worst I hear are on 10 meters.

WB2WIK/6
Wonder why?
Maybe because new ham licenses come in Crackerjack boxes?
WB2WIK is a eeleetist. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
No, I was just stating a fact.

They also seem to come in Corn Flakes. #I choked on one this morning. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Ow, bet that hurt your eeeeeleeetist throat...



You know I'm just kidding.. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[k5jyd]

Unplug your mike and plug in a straight key or some paddles and you will soon discover if you belong to the elite club .You will always find some one faster , some one better on a key than you are. In some qso's you will be the elite op and in others you will not. Its a fun experience.
k5jyd

[KI4ODO]

Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ July 27 2007,11:31)]Not sure how to define "elite," but I know it when I don't hear it.

And I'm not hearing it from many newbies.



WB2WIK/6
The year and a half that I have been a ham, I can tell you here is what I would define as "elite". #Someone who's love for ham radio goes beyond their own shack. Someone who has such a clean and precise sending "fist" that you hope to someday be able to do that. Someone who can seem to fix anything that has to do with ham radio. Someone who knows from experience how to help you, cause they have been there. Someone who has worked to learn the in's and out's of the hobby in general. Someone who specializes in something that they can be considered the best around at, like amps, or antennas, or digital, or teaching CW, or orgonizing things like Skywarn or ARES. Someone who can be an elmer because they have the hands on experience to be one. Someone who works their butt off to make sure something like field day is a good experience for the club, giving countless hours for few thanks. We all know people like that if we have been around for more than a few weeks. Our clubs are full of them. The names and calls come to your mind as you read this. Those folks are elite. They love ham radio, and are willing to give back. Think about VE's that give up the better part of a precious Saturday off to do nothing more but get new people in the hobby, those guys are elite. You know what I'm talking about.

[KB1JCY]

There's a difference between elite (on top of your game) and being a pompous, arrogant, arseclown. I work with some some heavy hitters at Sun. Our customers are giganormous global corporations. My customers expect excellent support and service. There's no room for egos. I have a deep guru meditation with regard to Linux and our X64 hardware products. When some customer calls in and whines about the fact that he can't find the OpenBoot prompt on his/her X64 box, I could be an arrogant schmuck and give them attitude. I've had customers (whom are our top 10 accounts) cop an attitude with me because they are a Top 10 account. I have to diffuse the situation by putting my ego aside and managing his/her frustration so that we can work with each other. Ultimately professionalism and diplomacy wins out over egos and pompous attitudes. There's aways room in Amateur Radio for professionalism. That's how we set ourselves apart from (ugh I can't believe I'm going to say this) CB or other technical hobbies.

If you truly love this hobby/service, you're going to love it enough to set your ego aside. The elite dedicate a service to Amateur Radio and consciously add value to Amateur Radio. A crappy attitude only betrays your insecurity. It's your attitude that separates you from a elite or a lamer.

[N5FOG]

Well said JCY

There is nothing wrong with having pride in your hobby. But too often pride and ego get mixed up which is the cause of the majority of battles/scuffles we hear on the air so often.

Anyone can get on the air and scream at other stations that use "their" frequency or does anything else that threatens their ego. But it takes a professional operator with true pride in his hobby to be able to just brush off the challenge to his ego.

Riley said it best, We live in a society that loves its rights but prefers not to hear about its responsibilities.

Every time you get on the air, you need to decide what's most important to you ...the best interests of Amateur radio as a whole, or your own pride/ego or "rights".



FOG

[WA2ZDY]

Hey Heath, I'm putting your name in for induction into the Loyal Order of the O.F.

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (KB1JCY @ July 27 2007,17:13)]There's a difference between elite (on top of your game) and being a pompous, arrogant, arseclown. I work with some some heavy hitters at Sun. Our customers are giganormous global corporations. My customers expect excellent support and service. There's no room for egos. I have a deep guru meditation with regard to Linux and our X64 hardware products. When some customer calls in and whines about the fact that he can't find the OpenBoot prompt on his/her X64 box, I could be an arrogant schmuck and give them attitude. I've had customers (whom are our top 10 accounts) cop an attitude with me because they are a Top 10 account. I have to diffuse the situation by putting my ego aside and managing his/her frustration so that we can work with each other. Ultimately professionalism and diplomacy wins out over egos and pompous attitudes. There's aways room in Amateur Radio for professionalism. That's how we set ourselves apart from (ugh I can't believe I'm going to say this) CB or other technical hobbies.

If you truly love this hobby/service, you're going to love it enough to set your ego aside. The elite dedicate a service to Amateur Radio and consciously add value to Amateur Radio. A crappy attitude only betrays your insecurity. It's your attitude that separates you from a elite or a lamer.
I hear ya... We're probably one of those customers you're talking about (or maybe not), although most of our Sun stuff is Sparc, not any X64.

Rest assured I'm not the pompous A-hole who calls you guys, but I know a few of them who could qualify. And trust me, they annoy the hell out of me too.

And I used to work for a Sun contractor at a city Gov't agency in New York, jeez, those guys (the city employees) are the worst. I truly feel your pain.

Read my thread in rag chew about my experience with Verizon Wireless customer service, and the attitude I got from them. They are lucky I'm a private individual customer, not a large corporate account.

[KE5FRF]

Quote[/b] (WA2ZDY @ July 27 2007,18:24)]Hey Heath, I'm putting your name in for induction into the Loyal Order of the O.F.
ROTFLMAO.

Please, I would prefer to be a young squirt just a little bit longer. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[W5HTW]

Some people appear to confuse the word "elite" with the word "snob." And it is true that with an improper attitude they can mean the same. But mostly they do not. As others have remarked, SEALS, Rangers, Commandos, Special Forces, were all considered, and rightly so, elite troops.

Someone who has risen to the top in his or her specialty should be recognized. Someone who has not risen on his own merit, deserves no recognition. But that is the problem. We have all these people who come in, zip to Extra Class, and want that recognition. I don't think they will get it, until ham radio has changed so that everyone (and it is getting there) is an Extra Class, which will, of course, remove the word "Extra." Mostly it has already been removed.

Many people say a ham license is a license to learn. Certainly that was true, with the Novice. The idea was to get into the hobby and start to learn. But the Novice ticket was the "Apprentice" license of amateur radio. The General was the "Journeyman" license, and the Extra was the "Master Certificate." The Master is not supposed to be a beginner. He is supposed to be the instructor, not the studen. Certainly he should continue to expand his own knowledge, but he is the one who is called upon for answers, not for questions. That is where the system has failed us so much. It is why the two year (and later one year) experience requirement was in place, in order to test for the Extra. One had to show he really did have the experience.

There is, as many have noted, nothing wrong with being elite. Quite the opposite; it IS a qualification for personal pride, achievement, in any endeavor. It is a compliment, not an insult. It is used as an intended insult by the ones who can't be, or refuse to be, achievers. Those who sat for 10-15 years, now resent that they still are not admitted to the party. They call me elitist, I call them slackers. Works for me.


Ed

[ab0wr]

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ July 27 2007,08:10)]Quote[/b] (KA4DPO @ July 27 2007,10:00)]Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ July 27 2007,09:53)]The exception is the guy who said "I ain't gonna get into it until it fits ME. I won't fit it." That is, to me, the same as the immigrant who comes here to change America to the place he left, rather than to join the America he now lives in and uses the benefits. Respect? He doesn't know the word.

Ed
Ed, this is almost a different subject but man are you ever on the money with that statement. We're up to our eyeballs in "immigrants" who don't want to assimilate into america. They just want to live here and take from us while demanding respect. You and I share the same philosphy on that subject.
As an immigrant who tries to fit in, sometimes you just hit a brick wall.

If you weren't born here, or aren't white/black you can't fit in in many places.

So what do you do? Go and be lonely? Or find people like you? I did the latter.

I agree, the people who are trying to change the culture and force their language and customs on everyone are bad for society, but those who are rejected from American society and simply associate with their own kind? Nothing wrong in that, IMO.
Go join the Boy Scouts as an adult leader. I have *never* seen them turn anyone away because they are an "immigrant".

I've never seen anyone in our church turn anyone away for "being an immigrant".

I've never seen anyone at my school turn a teacher away from a job because they are an "immigrant".

I've never seen anyone at our local tavern not given a drink because they are an "immigrant".

Exactly where didn't you fit in because you are an immigrant?

Associating only with ones kind *is* bad for America. It's why diversity has been the watchword in our schools for over 40 years. It's why America as a "melting pot" is rapidly disappearing -- to its detriment.

tim ab0wr

tim ab0wr

[ab0wr]

Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ July 27 2007,08:48)]IMHO, Heath has a very good point. All too many people, too many times, use the term "elite" in a derogatory, negative manner.
But "elite" doesn't automatically mean snobbish or indicate a position of higher social standing; it does (or should) indicate a higher level of training and expertise.

Just as the Navy Seals (or the Green Berets in the VietNam War era) are considered "elite," due to their higher level of training and specialized tactics, it doesn't mean any other military personnel are somehow "inferior."
At one time, (prior to incentive licensing) Advanced and Amateur Extra Class licensees were considered "elite," because they had proven a higher level of education or knowledge by means of a written exam (and Morse proficiency,) yet they were justy like the rest; no additional privileges, nothing but the admiration of others for having achieved the higher class license. That, and the personal satisfaction of having achieved a higher level of training and knowledge.
And when there were no special "Extra" (or Advanced) frequencies, there was no cliquish behaviour where some snobbish operators could openly advertise they only wanted to talk to other Extras, everyone else keep out. With incentive licensing, the "Private Country Club" attitude was created, in the mind of some. And THAT created a disrespect for the true "elitism" in Amateur Radio, with the POSITIVE connotation.

Yes, some of us (still) consider ourselves "elite;" (hopefully I'll achieve that level some day) but if taken in a positive way, it can only improve Amateur Radio. Because it's the elite that are SUPPOSED to uphold the best operating techniques, the best technical expertise, and YES, in many ways uphold and propagate the rich traditions of Amateur Radio, and be an example for ALL the other operators, regardless of license class held.
I never really thought of the Incentive Licensing in this manner before but I think you are right It created an artificial divide that only leads to antipathy not comradeship.

Good point.

If they did away with the Extra class subbands today I certainly wouldn't miss them. That's another reason to look at the new Canadian bandplan for the US - no more artificial barriers.

If you want an Extra go learn what is needed to get it. It would become a symbol of individual excellence once more.

I'm going to have to integrate this one into my philosophy.

Thanks,

tim ab0wr

[n6yg]

Quote[/b] ]Now, I have seen in many recent posts people express disgust with the "elitist" mentallity of older hams
How can someone stuck in 1940 technology even possibly consider themselves an elitist.

[ab0wr]

Quote[/b] (n6yg @ July 27 2007,17:57)]Quote[/b] ]Now, I have seen in many recent posts people express disgust with the "elitist" mentallity of older hams
How can someone stuck in 1940 technology even possibly consider themselves an elitist.
1920's technology just happens to be Single Sideband-Surpressed Carrier. It wasn't long after 1940 that Shannon and Hartley developed their information theory (published in 1948 I think) that is one of the basics in digital information exchange today. Whether you realize it or not that digital voice system from AOR just happens to use 1920's technology to get your bit stream from your station to the other station (i.e. SSB).

In other words, exactly what technology are YOU using on the ham bands that wasn't developed before 1950?

Or are you talking about physical implementations of technology? Accusing someone of using a vacuum tube instead of a transistor isn't much of a personal attack is it? Surely you can do better than that!

tim ab0wr

[KE5FRF]

All of this is part of a much bigger picture even than amateur radio.

It finds its roots in well-meaning but flawed policies like "Affirmative Action". It is spawned from academia where using the word "failure" to describe a student's performance is becoming taboo. It evolved from do-gooders who take the competition out of organized youth sports and award trophies to everyone and tell everyone they are champs.

On the surface, any one of these new age concepts can be seen as well intentioned and perhaps DOES have a positive effect on the "disadvantaged". But the positives are quickly exposed to be a lie and have unfair side-affects of their own. Affirmative action has indeed helped to give minority groups a boost but at some point critical mass is reached where it is no longer a hand up but becomes a crutch. This kind of thing is also often at the expense of someone more deserving. Failing to be honest with a child in the academic world about his performance sets the standards low and when the standard is low, unmotivated children often act like water in that they find the lowest point. Further, the most giftted kids are often left to wonder what the point of their effort is and their performance also suffers. The poor athlete never realizes that he isn't cut out for the sport and wastes his time that could be better be spent developing another talent. Or equally bad, he slows the other kids down who truly want to excel but can't because the pack only runs as fast as the slowest wolf.


All of this boils down to "lowest common denominator".

Unfortunately, when standards are lower to accomodate those who can't or won't (ie amateur radio), a similar thing happens. The truly elite, the ones who have the drive and spirit to make the hobby shine, become fewer and further between as there are fewer to step up and assume that role. The accomplishments of the elite become less and less relevant because the masses do not care about accomplishment. Knowledge is traded for disinformation because it becomes ever more unclear "who knows what" and "who's supposed to know what."

But again, THERE IS A CURE FOR THIS. You, I , nobody has to fall into it. YOU CAN strive to be elite. YOU CAN take it upon yourself to learn the things that elite hams know and do the things elite hams do. Just as "Affirmative Action" allowed some brilliant men and women the "opportunity" to excel, the opportunity is STILL THERE no matter WHAT the licensing scheme. It is up to YOU to grasp the keys and open the door to respect and knowledge. But there is only one key to this door and many of these OT'ers have a copy. All you have to do is ask them how to use it and accept the things they tell you.

[N8UZE]

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ July 27 2007,19:30)]Quote[/b] (WA2ZDY @ July 27 2007,18:24)]Hey Heath, I'm putting your name in for induction into the Loyal Order of the O.F.
ROTFLMAO.

Please, I would prefer to be a young squirt just a little bit longer. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
The day you became a ham, you became an OM. We ladies, however, get to be a YL forever!

[KE5FRF]

Quote[/b] (n6yg @ July 27 2007,19:57)]Quote[/b] ]Now, I have seen in many recent posts people express disgust with the "elitist" mentallity of older hams
How can someone stuck in 1940 technology even possibly consider themselves an elitist.
So are you trying to say that analog is older technology than digital?

I suggest you think a little more and do some research. I'll give you a hint: Vacuum tubes are voltage devices much more similar in function to CMOS than to bipolar amplifiers. Many early implementations of vacuum tubes are the fundamental roots of modern computing.

BTW, your logic is absolutely flawed. To use your logic eliteness is related to the state of the art. There are elite people doing VERY non-technical things in this world. There are sailors breaking distance and speed records with the simplest of sail-boats. There are outdoorsmen who hunt and trap with simple implements but gain wide respect for their elite SKILL which is totally unrelated to the advancement of their tools. There are elite craftsmen like blacksmiths, glass-blowers, and knifesmiths all over the world forging the finest of artwork and utensils with age-old technology that brings a hefty price for its antiquity and beauty.

Yes, being cutting edge in the realm of technology CAN consitute an elite accomplishment but that is NOT what characterizes it.

[n6yg]

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ July 27 2007,18:37)]Quote[/b] (n6yg @ July 27 2007,19:57)]Quote[/b] ]Now, I have seen in many recent posts people express disgust with the "elitist" mentallity of older hams
How can someone stuck in 1940 technology even possibly consider themselves an elitist.
So are you trying to say that analog is older technology than digital?

I suggest you think a little more and do some research. I'll give you a hint: Vacuum tubes are voltage devices much more similar in function to CMOS than to bipolar amplifiers. Many early implementations of vacuum tubes are the fundamental roots of modern computing.

BTW, your logic is absolutely flawed. To use your logic eliteness is related to the state of the art. There are elite people doing VERY non-technical things in this world. There are sailors breaking distance and speed records with the simplest of sail-boats. There are outdoorsmen who hunt and trap with simple implements but gain wide respect for their elite SKILL which is totally unrelated to the advancement of their tools. There are elite craftsmen like blacksmiths, glass-blowers, and knifesmiths all over the world forging the finest of artwork and utensils with age-old technology that brings a hefty price for its antiquity and beauty.

Yes, being cutting edge in the realm of technology CAN consitute an elite accomplishment but that is NOT what characterizes it.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[N0NB]

I reject elitism at all levels. I strive for excellence.

[KE5FRF]

Quote[/b] (n6yg @ July 27 2007,21:10)]Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ July 27 2007,18:37)]Quote[/b] (n6yg @ July 27 2007,19:57)]Quote[/b] ]Now, I have seen in many recent posts people express disgust with the "elitist" mentallity of older hams
How can someone stuck in 1940 technology even possibly consider themselves an elitist.
So are you trying to say that analog is older technology than digital?

I suggest you think a little more and do some research. I'll give you a hint: Vacuum tubes are voltage devices much more similar in function to CMOS than to bipolar amplifiers. Many early implementations of vacuum tubes are the fundamental roots of modern computing.

BTW, your logic is absolutely flawed. To use your logic eliteness is related to the state of the art. There are elite people doing VERY non-technical things in this world. There are sailors breaking distance and speed records with the simplest of sail-boats. There are outdoorsmen who hunt and trap with simple implements but gain wide respect for their elite SKILL which is totally unrelated to the advancement of their tools. There are elite craftsmen like blacksmiths, glass-blowers, and knifesmiths all over the world forging the finest of artwork and utensils with age-old technology that brings a hefty price for its antiquity and beauty.

Yes, being cutting edge in the realm of technology CAN consitute an elite accomplishment but that is NOT what characterizes it.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
I'm looking for the joke http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[n6yg]

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ July 27 2007,19:20)]Quote[/b] (n6yg @ July 27 2007,21:10)]Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ July 27 2007,18:37)]Quote[/b] (n6yg @ July 27 2007,19:57)]Quote[/b] ]Now, I have seen in many recent posts people express disgust with the "elitist" mentallity of older hams
How can someone stuck in 1940 technology even possibly consider themselves an elitist.
So are you trying to say that analog is older technology than digital?

I suggest you think a little more and do some research. I'll give you a hint: Vacuum tubes are voltage devices much more similar in function to CMOS than to bipolar amplifiers. Many early implementations of vacuum tubes are the fundamental roots of modern computing.

BTW, your logic is absolutely flawed. To use your logic eliteness is related to the state of the art. There are elite people doing VERY non-technical things in this world. There are sailors breaking distance and speed records with the simplest of sail-boats. There are outdoorsmen who hunt and trap with simple implements but gain wide respect for their elite SKILL which is totally unrelated to the advancement of their tools. There are elite craftsmen like blacksmiths, glass-blowers, and knifesmiths all over the world forging the finest of artwork and utensils with age-old technology that brings a hefty price for its antiquity and beauty.

Yes, being cutting edge in the realm of technology CAN consitute an elite accomplishment but that is NOT what characterizes it.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
I'm looking for the joke http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
Great, Just what we need another elitist with an HT and a desire to be a first responder.

It looks like your trying to compair Ham radio to real craftsmen with real skill's.
I hold a sailing endorsement on My USCG Master Mariners certificate. The requirements for this endorsement makes ham radio look like a child's play.

There are many real challenges in life and ham radio is not really one of them. In general Elitism in the ham radio ranks makes us all look bad, It's not rocket science. It's one thing to strive for self improvement it's another to consider yourself an elitist.

[KA4DPO]

Quote[/b] (ab0wr @ July 27 2007,20:18)]Quote[/b] (n6yg @ July 27 2007,17:57)]Quote[/b] ]Now, I have seen in many recent posts people express disgust with the "elitist" mentallity of older hams
How can someone stuck in 1940 technology even possibly consider themselves an elitist.
1920's technology just happens to be Single Sideband-Surpressed Carrier. It wasn't long after 1940 that Shannon and Hartley developed their information theory (published in 1948 I think) that is one of the basics in digital information exchange today. Whether you realize it or not that digital voice system from AOR just happens to use 1920's technology to get your bit stream from your station to the other station (i.e. SSB).

In other words, exactly what technology are YOU using on the ham bands that wasn't developed before 1950?

Or are you talking about physical implementations of technology? Accusing someone of using a vacuum tube instead of a transistor isn't much of a personal attack is it? Surely you can do better than that!

tim ab0wr
I couldn't help but notice that junior ducked your response Tim. I guess he's hoping we'll all just forget.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[W5HTW]

Everyone knew about digital communication back in the Dark Ages. Hold up one finger (on) or down (off) and you were digital. That is, in fact, what the word means - digit. As electricity joined the world we found out pretty quickly that a light switch had two positions. Binary.

In other words, the theory of digital has been with us a very long time. Harnessing it to make it do real work for us took a couple of years longer.

In electronics, though, binary was used in the earliest days of communications, that is, CW, Morse, and before that, Spark.

Early diodes made digital electronics much easier. "Real" Computers came into being in the 1940s. Many military computers were analog, but some from WW-II were digital.

All this clamor about digital being new is really about our new methods of digital communications, but the principle goes way, way back. RTTY from the late 1940s is digital communications.

AFSK? Sound card? Well I was using professional AFSK systems in the early 1960s. The same thing! Just used an audio input from a tone oscillator, but was transmitted on either USB or LSB in precisely the same way we do it today. Narrow shift? Yes, absolutely. Mostly 170 Hertz, but some of it was 85 Hertz.

APRS? The feds were using it reliably in the early 1980s to track nuclear weapons transport vehicles. Probably they were using it before that, but just didn't tell the world they were doing it until about 1984.

There are no new communications techniques in amateur radio. All of them, CW, SSB, SSTV, AM, FM, ATV, have been around for decades. Moonbounce? Certainly. Tropo scatter, yes. We are the boys (and the girls) playing with the toys, but we are noton any cutting edge of anything except maybe multiband ... no, I won't say it!

The point is, when one says "ancient technology" just about all of what we do is ancient technology. That is not a valid excuse for banning any of it, or complaining about the people who use it.

Ed

[KE5FRF]

I DON'T consider myself elite or an elitist.
And the batteries on my HT have been dead for over a year.

I have several things that I do outside of ham radio that I'm proud of and accomplsihed at as well.

But I totally disagree with you that ham radio is such childs play that one can not achieve eliteness at doing things that we do. There are hams all over our community designing and building world class homebrew radios from the first wire to the last diode. There are fine world class craftsman building and machining Code keys that are pure art. You have obviously never experienced QRQ CW. I am bordering on entering the ranks of QRQ ops and have indulged in QSOs at 50 WPM and held my own. I do not yet consider myself an elite telegrapher but the dozen or so QRQ ops that have pushed my skill to the limits have earned my respect as elite.


YOU are the one with the issues with amateur radio, not I. YOU have chosen not to pursue any of the finer arts of our hobby and have religated yourself to appliance operating, not I. Mastering the art and skill of telegraphy IS one of the elite acomplishments of our hobby if one chooses to take it to the next level. All YOU have proven by your comments is that YOU are in fact the HT toting wannabe and I hate to play the role of AG4YO but you are hiding behind your own lack of motivation by your vanity callsign.

I happen to agree with you...In most respects if you take the attitude that YOU have taken, this hobby IS pretty lame. Pecking away at a keyboard or squeezing a PTT on a black box appliance radio must be pretty mundane. That is why I chose to pursue a path that MIGHT take me to that next level of eliteness one day. There ARE a few other paths where that can be achieved without telegraphy being involved, but I'm sorry to say with your attitude, YOU certainly will always be "just another callsign in the ether".

[KA4DPO]

I agree that most if not all of the modes and technology we use in amateur radio today are a lot older than our young friend thinks. I was designing spread spectrum systems in the late 70s and code and frequency division multiplex systems also.

The basic concept of these things hasn't changed in years. What has changed is the amount of computer power we have available to implement these modes better than ever before.

[ab0wr]

Quote[/b] ]BTW, your logic is absolutely flawed. To use your logic eliteness is related to the state of the art. There are elite people doing VERY non-technical things in this world. There are sailors breaking distance and speed records with the simplest of sail-boats. There are outdoorsmen who hunt and trap with simple implements but gain wide respect for their elite SKILL which is totally unrelated to the advancement of their tools. There are elite craftsmen like blacksmiths, glass-blowers, and knifesmiths all over the world forging the finest of artwork and utensils with age-old technology that brings a hefty price for its antiquity and beauty.

Man, there just isn't much to compare to watching a skilled blacksmith make even something as simple as a nail. My father could do that but, sadly, it was something I failed to pick up while he was alive to teach me. I can soften a chisel, sharpen it, and reharden it but that's about the extent of my skill. Watching them turn out custom wrought iron railings, custom trigger guards for a black powder rifle, or even a piece to fix an old plow -- i could sit and watch for hours.

tim ab0wr

[n6yg]

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ July 27 2007,20:03)]I DON'T consider myself elite or an elitist.
And the batteries on my HT have been dead for over a year.

I have several things that I do outside of ham radio that I'm proud of and accomplsihed at as well.

But I totally disagree with you that ham radio is such childs play that one can not achieve eliteness at doing things that we do. There are hams all over our community designing and building world class homebrew radios from the first wire to the last diode. There are fine world class craftsman building and machining Code keys that are pure art. You have obviously never experienced QRQ CW. I am bordering on entering the ranks of QRQ ops and have indulged in QSOs at 50 WPM and held my own. I do not yet consider myself an elite telegrapher but the dozen or so QRQ ops that have pushed my skill to the limits have earned my respect as elite.


YOU are the one with the issues with amateur radio, not I. YOU have chosen not to pursue any of the finer arts of our hobby and have religated yourself to appliance operating, not I. Mastering the art and skill of telegraphy IS one of the elite acomplishments of our hobby if one chooses to take it to the next level. All YOU have proven by your comments is that YOU are in fact the HT toting wannabe and I hate to play the role of AG4YO but you are hiding behind your own lack of motivation by your vanity callsign.

I happen to agree with you...In most respects if you take the attitude that YOU have taken, this hobby IS pretty lame. Pecking away at a keyboard or squeezing a PTT on a black box appliance radio must be pretty mundane. That is why I chose to pursue a path that MIGHT take me to that next level of eliteness one day. There ARE a few other paths where that can be achieved without telegraphy being involved, but I'm sorry to say with your attitude, YOU certainly will always be "just another callsign in the ether".
Quote[/b] ]appliance operating, not I. Mastering the art and skill of telegraphy
Making a few assumptions aren't you.
Let's see I have built my own home brew receivers, transmitters, amplifiers, tuners........ All my antennas are home brew, I assemble all my own coax, assemble my on ladder line, I own a mill and a lathe for among other things building coils and traps. I have done the boat anchor thing...... Back when I was 13 years old code was fun. While others where passing notes in class my ham buddy's and I were tapping code out on our school desks. I did the novice thing and intended on upgrading. But in the end decided learning to sail, making money and making my mark on the world was far more important then playing radio. I have been around AR for 40+ years. I took a long hiatus and only recently returned, what the heck did I return to?? a whole lot of self important hams who aren't worthy of wiping my elmers "sk" behind making a big stink over nothing.

[KE5FRF]

Well then, lets do a sked OM!

Bring out your bug or your straight key, doesn't matter which.

I'll tune up on any spot in the bands. You can show me how its done. Show me that you've been there and done that!

[n6yg]

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ July 27 2007,20:30)]Well then, lets do a sked OM!

Bring out your bug or your straight key, doesn't matter which.

I'll tune up on any spot in the bands. You can show me how its done. Show me that you've been there and done that!
You read my entire post and thats the only thing you can come back with.

I'm a bit rusty, 13 years old was quite a while ago. But I'll make you a deal. You learn to read and write Greek to at least a 12th grade level. And I'll bring my code speed up to 20. Or you learn Greek at a 6th grade level and I do the 5WPM. Come on if learning a language such as code is so difficult then an elitist such as you should have no problem learning a simple language such as Greek.
Like I said there are so many thing in life so much more complicated then ham radio and code that making a big deal over code or who was around the longest is just pathetic. get on with your life and GET OVER IT.

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (KA4DPO @ July 27 2007,20:07)]I agree that most if not all of the modes and technology we use in amateur radio today are a lot older than our young friend thinks. I was designing spread spectrum systems in the late 70s and code and frequency division multiplex systems also.

The basic concept of these things hasn't changed in years. What has changed is the amount of computer power we have available to implement these modes better than ever before.
And don't forget, the actual concept of "spread spectrum" was proposed in the early 1940's. Ms. Hedy Lamaar had the idea. But I guess that's "new" technology for you? But as DPO points out, we are developing new ways to use the technology, as it's intermingled with processor power never dreamed of in the 1940's.

[N4AUD]

Quote[/b] (n6yg @ July 27 2007,23:45)]Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ July 27 2007,20:30)]Well then, lets do a sked OM!

Bring out your bug or your straight key, doesn't matter which.

I'll tune up on any spot in the bands. You can show me how its done. Show me that you've been there and done that!
Talk about anal retentive. you read my entire post and thats the only thing you can come back with.

I'm a bit rusty, 13 years old was quite a while ago. But I'll make you a deal. You learn to read and write Greek to at least a 12th grade level. And I'll bring my code speed up to 20. Or you learn Greek at a 6th grade level and I do the 5WPM. Come on if learning a language such as code is so difficult then an elitist such as you should have no problem learning a simple language such as Greek.
Like I said there are so many thing in life so much more complicated then ham radio and code that making a big deal over code or who was around the longest is just pathetic. get on with your life and GET OVER IT.
Why the hell would Heath want to learn Greek? Why should he? I thought we were talking amateur radio.

Also, you might want to look up the definition of "anal retentive."

You talk a good game, OM.

[n6yg]

Quote[/b] (n4aud @ July 27 2007,20:57)]Quote[/b] (n6yg @ July 27 2007,23:45)]Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ July 27 2007,20:30)]Well then, lets do a sked OM!

Bring out your bug or your straight key, doesn't matter which.

I'll tune up on any spot in the bands. You can show me how its done. Show me that you've been there and done that!
Talk about anal retentive. you read my entire post and thats the only thing you can come back with.

I'm a bit rusty, 13 years old was quite a while ago. But I'll make you a deal. You learn to read and write Greek to at least a 12th grade level. And I'll bring my code speed up to 20. Or you learn Greek at a 6th grade level and I do the 5WPM. Come on if learning a language such as code is so difficult then an elitist such as you should have no problem learning a simple language such as Greek.
Like I said there are so many thing in life so much more complicated then ham radio and code that making a big deal over code or who was around the longest is just pathetic. get on with your life and GET OVER IT.
Why the hell would Heath want to learn Greek? Why should he? I thought we were talking amateur radio.

Also, you might want to look up the definition of "anal retentive."

You talk a good game, OM.
Because learning code is like learning a language. Its not a bunch of dit's and dahs. Well I guess if you learn it at 5wpm you could count the dits and dahs. But when I was 13 my elmer told me don't worry about the dit's and dah's learn to hear the sounds. He said if you learn code at 5wpm by counting the dit's and dah's you will have a hard time bringing your speed up to 20. So I took his advice and learned the sounds.
So to me code is like a language. My wager was simple he learn a language that he does not have much use for and I'll learn a language I have don't have much use for and we'll compare notes on which was harder to learn

[KE5FRF]

I studied French years ago and figured out I had no use for it so why would I waste my time with Greek?

Difference here is OM that I have no plans to ever visit Greece, but you and I both are licensed amateurs. Difference is that I have the ability to communicate with everyone I hear on the bands where you are limited to people with computers or microphones.

I am not elite, but by my definition eliteness is the pursuit of excellence. How can one be truly excellent with such self imposed limitations as you have set for yourself?

I have no beef with you OM, I'm trying to makea reasonable point on this thread that there is nothing special and little honor in settling for mediocraty. If that is what you are