View Full Version : Child Labor
Maybe a modern day update of The Lord Of The Flies?
Kid Nation (http://www.tvweek.com/news/2007/07/the_founding_of_kid_nation.php)
KI4MRU
07-16-2007, 05:27 PM
It was an interesting way for them to circumvent child labor restrictions, and I'll reserve judgment on it until I see an episode or two (which, based on the promo, might be about as much as I can stand). It sounds interesting, but I have a feeling it was probably more structured than they would lead us to believe...
I'm boycotting this show. CBS cancelled Jericho to put it in that time slot.
Yes, they brought it back, but only after we threw so many nuts at them they had to!
kf6rdn
07-17-2007, 03:56 AM
Sounds like another stupid "reality" show to me.
Not going to bother.
Jericho is the only Network TV show I have watched in quite a while, but this one looks interesting -- for maybe one episode, or at least until the first commercial. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
K8MHZ
07-17-2007, 05:08 AM
Quote[/b] ]"We would wake up the kids at 7 a.m. and were shooting them until sometimes midnight," said a member of the production crew.
What the hell kind of garbage it this?
Those kid's parents need to be sterilized....and soon as they are nothing but friggin' pimps.
Please tell me this is some kind of joke.
Edit: And anyone that watches such filth is nothing more than a whoremonger.
I doubt many here would care.
They care too much about Wal-Mart to worry about child labor.
Who cares what sweat shop the stuff came out on, there is a smiley face on the price tag. Child labor does not matter as long as we get the lowest price, always!
n2ize
07-17-2007, 05:38 AM
Quote[/b] (k8mhz @ July 16 2007,22:08)]Quote[/b] ]"We would wake up the kids at 7 a.m. and were shooting them until sometimes midnight," said a member of the production crew.
What the hell kind of garbage it this?
Those kid's parents need to be sterilized....and soon as they are nothing but friggin' pimps.
Please tell me this is some kind of joke.
Edit: #And anyone that watches such filth is nothing more than a whoremonger.
I agree 100%. A show like this is disgusting. It should be pulled from the airwaves and should not be allowed to be shown. The slobs who created this should not be allowed to capitalize on such exploitative garbage.
Oh, "realisty TV" is an oxymoron. It is "unreality TV". Complete drivel.
Quote[/b] (al2n @ July 16 2007,21:31)]I doubt many here would care.
They care too much about Wal-Mart to worry about child labor.
Who cares what sweat shop the stuff came out on, there is a smiley face on the price tag. Child labor does not matter as long as we get the lowest price, always!
I agree with you that imported goods which are produced cheaply in countries without decent human rights should not be used to destroy our own people's livelihood, but I must demure about this new show. It sounds to me like those kids had a wonderful opportunity, to learn, grow, earn spending money, and make new friends. I wish I had of been given such an opportunity when I was a kid.
Quote[/b] (al2i @ July 16 2007,23:40)]Quote[/b] (al2n @ July 16 2007,21:31)]I doubt many here would care.
They care too much about Wal-Mart to worry about child labor.
Who cares what sweat shop the stuff came out on, there is a smiley face on the price tag. Child labor does not matter as long as we get the lowest price, always!
I agree with you that imported goods which are produced cheaply in countries without decent human rights should not be used to destroy our own people's livelihood, but I must demure about this new show. It sounds to me like those kids had a wonderful opportunity, to learn, grow, earn spending money, and make new friends. I wish I had of been given such an opportunity when I was a kid.
7am to midnight.
Sounds like a typical summer day on the farm.
Quote[/b] (n2ize @ July 16 2007,21:38)]I agree 100%. A show like this is disgusting. It should be pulled from the airwaves and should not be allowed to be shown. The slobs who created this should not be allowed to capitalize on such exploitative garbage.
Wow. I am still surprised by your venom about this. I just don't see where force was initiated and I cannot find the deep evil in this situation that you do. In fact OM, I do not see any particular evil at all.
Quote[/b] ]
Oh, "realisty TV" is an oxymoron. It is "unreality TV". Complete drivel.
On this we agree completely. I despise the so-called "reality shows", but at least I don't have to watch them or pay for them.
Freedom sometimes means that I must support the right of another to do something that I do not approve of.
Quote[/b] (al2n @ July 16 2007,22:43)]Quote[/b] (al2i @ July 16 2007,23:40)]Quote[/b] (al2n @ July 16 2007,21:31)]I doubt many here would care.
They care too much about Wal-Mart to worry about child labor.
Who cares what sweat shop the stuff came out on, there is a smiley face on the price tag. Child labor does not matter as long as we get the lowest price, always!
I agree with you that imported goods which are produced cheaply in countries without decent human rights should not be used to destroy our own people's livelihood, but I must demure about this new show. It sounds to me like those kids had a wonderful opportunity, to learn, grow, earn spending money, and make new friends. I wish I had of been given such an opportunity when I was a kid.
7am to midnight.
Sounds like a typical summer day on the farm.
Stop. Think. This was not "child labor". This was not back-breaking, field work. This was not hour after hour running a loom, putting soles on shoes, or trying to meet a boss's quota.
Still, my kids have been happiest when they were busy doing something new all day. That is what happened here and I would have loved to get my own kids into such a deal.
n2ize
07-17-2007, 07:05 AM
Quote[/b] (al2i @ July 16 2007,23:45)]Quote[/b] (n2ize @ July 16 2007,21:38)]I agree 100%. A show like this is disgusting. It should be pulled from the airwaves and should not be allowed to be shown. The slobs who created this should not be allowed to capitalize on such exploitative garbage.
Wow. #I am still surprised by your venom about this. #I just don't see where force was initiated and I cannot find the deep evil in this situation that you do. #In fact OM, I do not see any particular evil at all.
Quote[/b] ]
Oh, "realisty TV" is an oxymoron. It is "unreality TV". Complete drivel.
On this we agree completely. #I despise the so-called "reality shows", but at least I don't have to watch them or pay for them. #
Freedom sometimes means that I must support the right of another to do something that I do not approve of.
This is not about keeping children busy. This is about exploitation. Somebody is getting rich off these kids. Somebody exploited labor laws to make this happen. Sorry that you cannot see what's wrong with this kind of garbage. Unfortunately I don't have the time to explain it. It would take a lifetime.
Quote[/b] (n2ize @ July 16 2007,23:05)]This is not about keeping children busy. This is about exploitation. Somebody is getting rich off these kids. Somebody exploited labor laws to make this happen. Sorry that you cannot see what's wrong with this kind of garbage. Unfortunately I don't have the time to explain it. It would take a lifetime.
If you mean like the public school teachers exploit kids and parents to jealously guard their monopoly I am with you all of the way: It is force; it is evil; it is entrenched.
This was voluntary; the kids had a choice; the parents had a choice, and it was temporary.
Your priorities are inverted.
n2ize
07-17-2007, 07:20 AM
Quote[/b] (al2i @ July 17 2007,00:11)]Quote[/b] (n2ize @ July 16 2007,23:05)]This is not about keeping children busy. This is about exploitation. Somebody is getting rich off these kids. Somebody exploited labor laws to make this happen. #Sorry that you cannot see what's wrong with this kind of garbage. Unfortunately I don't have the time to explain it. It would take a lifetime.
If you mean like the public school teachers exploit kids and parents to jealously guard their monopoly I am with you all of the way: #It is force; it is evil; it is entrenched.
This was voluntary; the kids had a choice; the parents had a choice, and it was temporary.
Your priorities are inverted.
If you look hard enough you'll find people will do almost anything for money. That includes selling their kids to the highest bidder, or should I say exploiter. Just because parents volunteered doesn't make it right. And did the kids have a choice ? How much choice do many kids have when the parents decide for them what they are going to do ? I think parents who would allow their kids to do something like this are a disgrace and probably should not have kids.
So tell me, is Ron Paul going to close the public schools and bring us back to the Homespun era, when only the rich nobleman and his children could get an education as the masses remained uneducated, illiterate, and ignorant ?
I love the libertarian ideaology. Go back and try to relive the past rather than face the future. I do agree with some of their ideas though. Much more so than the neocons.
Quote[/b] ]This is not about keeping children busy. This is about exploitation. Somebody is getting rich off these kids.
Yeah, they are called Disney, Nickelodeon, PBS, Cartoon Network, General Mills, Kellogs, Coca Cola, Pepsi, Myspace, Nintendo, and any other company that targets kids for their marketing.
Nothing new here.
I see consistency in your many views that differ with mine in that you do not value choice n2ize. It is across the broad range of your opinions about an incredible multitude of things. You do not begrudge your fellow citizens the freedom to make economic choices.
Still, you are always sincere and you always act as if you speak from the moral high ground. I need to ponder this, as I have never understood the morality of coercion, and you are fairly pure instance of the desire to control.
n2ize
07-17-2007, 07:58 AM
Quote[/b] (al2i @ July 17 2007,00:21)]I see consistency in your many views that differ with mine in that you do not value choice n2ize. #It is across the broad range of your opinions about an incredible multitude of things. #You do not begrudge your fellow citizens the freedom to make economic choices. #
Still, you are always sincere and you always act as if you speak from the moral high ground. #I need to ponder this, as I have never understood the morality of coercion, and you are fairly pure instance of the desire to control.
I'd like totally free choice. I'd like the freedom to chose to do whatever I want when I want where I want and how I want. If I want to go into a national forest and start cutting every tree in sight so I could sell the wood and get rich I'd love that choice. If I get the urge at 3:00am to get drunk and run out into the street naked shooting off loud fireworks and yelling and screaming I'd love to have that choice. Unfortunately there are these pesky things called humans that tend to get in my way and stop me. As long as there are people in the world there will be some limitations of choice.
Eliminating public / compulsory education would have worked out great for me. I wanted the choice not to go to school. If I had my way I probably never would have set foot in a school. I would have been just as happy to aspire to be a house painter. I might also be illiterate today, sweeping floors or cleaning toilets as a livlihood. Not that there is anything wrong with that, it's honest work.
As much as I hated compulsory education I also came to appreciate it as I matured and progressed through the system. I discovered interesting subjects that I probably never would have encountered had I followed my choice and not gone to school. That compulsory exposure to a wide variety of subjects enabled me to find my niche, to find what really interested me and from there evolved inspiration. What came beyond that was left to my chosing.
So maybe compulsory education is a bad thing. If a father decides that his son is better destined to work on the farm rather than a life of school and books then perhaps that father should have the right to refrain from sending his son to school. If a mother decides her daughter is better suited to milking the family cow, looking after the younger siblings, churning the butter and making the bread then perhaps she should have a right to keep her daughter away from the books and away from the school and University. And if a kid hates school and would rather walk along the stream and toss stones all day then perhaps he should be granted that right rather then being forced to learn readin, ritin and rithmetic.
However I see it differently. I see compulsory education as an opportunity which opened up a greater range of choices in my life, choices I would likely not have had otherwise. True, early on I was denied the choice of whether or not I should go to school. But I feel I gained vastly more choices later on in life.
Sure there are some things that need to be changed. Not every law makes sense. There are laws that make no sense and cause more harm to both the individual and society. However I don't view compulsory education as one of them. I think we need to apply sensibility rather than across the board condemntation of everything that some view as "restricting choice.".
I guess in the midst of that laundry list of exaggerations and logical errors I get the gist of your position.
You think free people make bad choices and must have the State to move them to make the good choices. Your fear and loathing of freedom has many aspects, both a fear of the free economy, and a fear of people making free choices.
You see government as benevolent when it guides people down a particular channel in life that you (or rather your government) prescribes. People are free to splash about a bit, but they must be constrained within a fairly narrow definition of what you (or rather your government) have decided human life in this nation should be.
You do not believe you have the moral right to enforce such rules yourself, but you would have government agents acting on your behalf kicking in doors, seizing bank accounts or even shooting and killing any of your neighbors who resist your plan for their life.
Is that about it?
BTW, I'm not "picking" on you ize, it is just that I have paid attention to your many opinions and I am kind of working on a weird paradigm of our life in the currents of time and of people's political beliefs -- their optimal role of government: where they think government should channel human action, how tightly constrained the channel should be, and how high the channel walls.
I've see the Right wanting to build walls steering one way and the Left building walls to steer another way. They struggle with each other on this direction, this government plan for our lives. Every individual sees the optimal as a slightly different direction. I find I get along pretty good with either the Right or the Left, so long as they do not seek to build their walls very narrow or high. I am more concerned about the steering itself...
And I seek low walls: persuasion rather than coercion,
And I seek wide banks: vast freedom to find my own mistakes and my own triumphs in my brief journey down the river of life..
Anyhow, I have prodded you specifically because you are quite sincere while being slow to take offense or go on the defensive. ;)
Finally n2ize, I think your view of requiring more channeling of human action differs from my view of requiring less channeling of human action for two primary reasons:
Character of People: I think that in the fullness of time free people develop "good character", the ability to make good choices when bad ones are an option. I believe you are a pessimist here.
Character of Markets: I think that markets work really well so long as no one is allowed to have such power that they exclude competition. In my view, government is a terribly inefficient economic player and should not engage in the delivery of goods and services. I believe you are an optimist anytime you think it should.
W3MIV
07-17-2007, 11:38 AM
Fourteen hours is the normal production-day maximum. No news there.
Quote[/b] (n2ize @ July 17 2007,00:38)]Quote[/b] (k8mhz @ July 16 2007,22:08)]Quote[/b] ]"We would wake up the kids at 7 a.m. and were shooting them until sometimes midnight," said a member of the production crew.
What the hell kind of garbage it this?
Those kid's parents need to be sterilized....and soon as they are nothing but friggin' pimps.
Please tell me this is some kind of joke.
Edit: And anyone that watches such filth is nothing more than a whoremonger.
I agree 100%. A show like this is disgusting. It should be pulled from the airwaves and should not be allowed to be shown. The slobs who created this should not be allowed to capitalize on such exploitative garbage.
Oh, "realisty TV" is an oxymoron. It is "unreality TV". Complete drivel.
Well, if you really feel strongly about it, I'm sure Ms. Tassler would like to know your opinions.
After all, it is because of viewers' opinions that Jericho was brought back from the dead.
KD6NIG
07-17-2007, 02:59 PM
The bottom line is that reality tv isn't tv.
I tried with Survivor, but after about 2 weeks, I gave up. Why? Because if you were stranded on a island with nothing but one item you could bring, you wouldn't have 'challenges' where they take you off the island, to some resort, so you can sleep in a hotel.
Real Survivor would involve the fact that....if you won some challenge, maybe you'd get a bowl of rice or something. You know, you get lucky and you beat up the next guy to crash on the island and steal his stuff. And you wouldn't have teams, you'd be on your own. And no life flight helicopter landing to save you if you broke your leg.
I'm really shocked that CBS didn't call it Survivor: Childrens edition. You think they would have kept with the name.
But, with this show, I'm going to think like the real Survivor: If you have a guy showing up every week clean shaven, fresh clothes, and plenty of film crews running around, I'm thinking it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to "makeup" the people running around the island too. They probably didn't, but you know they could.
I'm thinking with this kids show, they won't get away with that. And these kids are going to complain more than adults, because at least an adult understands what a million dollars is.
It oughta be a good whine fest. You all tell me how it is.
No chance I'll be even thinking of watching it http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
But you know other people will.
The only other thing I wonder about is the parents who submitted their childs name to be on this thing. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
kf6rdn
07-18-2007, 05:21 AM
Quote[/b] (KD6NIG @ July 17 2007,06:59)]The only other thing I wonder about is the parents who submitted their childs name to be on this thing. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
The same ones in line to take their kid to Never Land ranch to sacrifice him to michael jackson.
It'll take a few more years, but maybe then the big networks will wise up and dump all the "reality TV" shows in favor of putting writers back to work to come up with innovative, well-written entertainment; people love a good story and that's what it'll take to bring back the viewership, not the drivel that's on now.
KI4PJW
07-18-2007, 04:31 PM
Quote[/b] (al2i @ July 16 2007,03:32)]Jericho is the only Network TV show I have watched in quite a while, but this one looks interesting -- for maybe one episode, or at least until the first commercial. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Afternoon Man,
You watch Jericho?
Kettle!
Quote[/b] (KI4PJW @ July 18 2007,08:31)]Quote[/b] (al2i @ July 16 2007,03:32)]Jericho is the only Network TV show I have watched in quite a while, but this one looks interesting -- for maybe one episode, or at least until the first commercial. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Afternoon Man,
You watch Jericho?
Kettle!
Jericho has been awesome because I enjoy apocalyptic fiction for some reason.
Full disclosure requires me to mention Eureka. I guess I am into small town shows. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
kf6rdn
07-18-2007, 08:22 PM
Quote[/b] (al2i @ July 18 2007,09:58)]Quote[/b] (KI4PJW @ July 18 2007,08:31)]Quote[/b] (al2i @ July 16 2007,03:32)]Jericho is the only Network TV show I have watched in quite a while, but this one looks interesting -- for maybe one episode, or at least until the first commercial. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Afternoon Man,
You watch Jericho?
Kettle!
Jericho has been awesome because I enjoy apocalyptic fiction for some reason.
Full disclosure requires me to mention Eureka. I guess I am into small town shows. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
I LOVE Eureka!
It's very entertaining, and sometime a nice "light" watching. Great dialogs.
"Why don't you just SAY 'death ray'!"
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
N8UZE
07-18-2007, 08:51 PM
Although N2IZE and I are very often quite far apart on many issues and on the details of other issues, in this case I am in complete agreement with him.
This is indeed exploitation of children and does indeed constitute a form of child labor.
As regarding choice, N2IZE is correct in that once you have more than one person, totally free choice no longer works. #Workable limits must be imposed otherwise the free choices of one can and probably will be harmful to some of the others. #The only thing N2IZE and I differ on here is exactly where to establish that limit.
Personally I can't see the point of so-called "reality shows" so do not watch them. #If I choose to watch TV, I want a good escapist drama, comedy, etc. not something with people thrown into a made up but "real" situation. Or I want to watch something like Discovery or the History Channel, etc.
Quote[/b] (N8UZE @ July 18 2007,12:51)]This is indeed exploitation of children and does indeed constitute a form of child labor.
OK, sure, if you all say so, then it must be so. The poor little kids were probably worked to death earning their $1,200 / week playing while learning new skills, thinking about how to organize a workable town, studying what went wrong with the original economy of the town and learning to solve problems with other kids.
I am sure that you would protect your own kids from such a frightful waste of their summer break.
Sounds like fun. When I was a kid, my friends and I would dream of doing things like this. And now kids can, with the benefit of doctors on hand and a cash stipend.
I don't see the big problem.
N8UZE
07-19-2007, 12:04 AM
Quote[/b] (al2i @ July 18 2007,17:17)]Quote[/b] (N8UZE @ July 18 2007,12:51)]This is indeed exploitation of children and does indeed constitute a form of child labor.
OK, sure, if you all say so, then it must be so. #The poor little kids were probably worked to death earning their $1,200 / week playing while learning new skills, thinking about how to organize a workable town, studying what went wrong with the original economy of the town and learning to solve problems with other kids.
I am sure that you would protect your own kids from such a frightful waste of their summer break.
Yes I would.
1. For one thing, they will be filming for many weeks.
2. Their intent is not to teach the kids but to use the kids to make money.
3. The filming hours per day is also quite long.
Now if this were provided for the kids with NO filming and no income to the organizers/promoters, the days were shorter and it were only a week, yes I would allow it as an educational exercise just like any other camp.
Interesting. I consider the potential future income to the organizers to be irrelevant, but looking at yours and n2ize's remarks, you consider income to be exploitation. That is a paradigm I do not share.
You guys probably would think some sort of enforced community service is OK, and I would consider it evil.
BTW, thank-you Jason.. Sometimes I begin to question my sanity when I am really alone. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
N8UZE
07-19-2007, 12:25 AM
Quote[/b] (al2i @ July 18 2007,20:09)]Interesting. #I consider the potential future income to the organizers to be irrelevant, but looking at yours and n2ize's remarks, you consider income to be exploitation. #That is a paradigm I do not share.
You guys probably would think some sort of enforced community service is OK, and I would consider it evil.
No I do not consider income exploitation. However the conditions of that income simply need to be more controlled. With 14 hours per day filming, this leaves the kids little time for personal activities and privacy.
As far as your community service goes, I'd say it depends. If someone tears up the community park, the most appropriate sentence could very well be enforced community service repairing that park rather than a stint in jail.
Quote[/b] (al2i @ July 18 2007,17:13)]BTW, thank-you Jason.. Sometimes I begin to question my sanity when I am really alone. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
You're welcome! I feel the same way sometimes around here...
The whole income=exploitation, zero-sum game mythology some folks are still in love with is lame and outdated.
Quote[/b] (N8UZE @ July 18 2007,16:25)]As far as your community service goes, I'd say it depends. If someone tears up the community park, the most appropriate sentence could very well be enforced community service repairing that park rather than a stint in jail.
They are requiring more and more community service in school districts for HS graduation credit, and proposals are floated periodically to expand this. I have a problem with it when it is not voluntary.
kf6rdn
07-19-2007, 12:48 AM
It's possible this could be a great opportunity for a kid to do something "cool", would give bragging rights in school, be a lifetime experience..
But it could also be, as 'ize/'uze say just taking advantage.
Possibly not so bad if they are just filmed going about activities. If it's a typical production, takes re-takes etc it's too harsh.
Well, as a parent I would sure want a rundown of what the kids give, and what they are given etc...
Personally watching this un-original crap bears no interest for me..
ve2nsm
07-19-2007, 12:51 AM
it's incredible how the US complains how whimpy and useless the kids are today, doing nothing besides sitting at their video games, being over protected and under challenged, yet when things like that arise, they cry and they whine at childs exploitation.
I don't get it http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
ve2nsm
07-19-2007, 12:53 AM
Yet to send a 16YO to the boot camp to teach him how to kill people is OK.
Quote[/b] (ve2nsm @ July 18 2007,17:51)]it's incredible how the US complains how whimpy and useless the kids are today, doing nothing besides sitting at their video games, being over protected and under challenged, yet when things like that arise, they cry and they whine at childs exploitation.
I don't get it http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
I agree. It doesn't make sense.
Also, a lot of American kids are obese. I guess it's OK if parents and McDonalds "exploit" kids that way...
A lot of parents aren't doing their jobs very well, IMO. I know- I don't have kids, my opinion is worthless, etc.