QSL cards and the environmental cost

[g4tut]

The following item appeared in a recent edition of Radio Bulgaria's DX programme...


QSL cards and the environmental cost

US radio ham Gerald Goodrich, WA1WIG, released the following statement concerning QSL cards:

“Certainly paper QSL cards transported around the world are the tradition. Perhaps it is time to rethink their value versus impact. We can chop down trees, build and maintain vehicles, burn petrochemicals for processing and transportation and eventually get a card to the desired station.

What does this get us? – A piece of paper that may be pretty on a wall and keep the ARRL awards folks happy. Most of these will not be used long, if at all. Can’t the same be achieved with less impact? EQSL can easily serve the desire for personalized cards if the sender cares to upload a personal photo. Mine have a nature photograph I personally took. Surely eQSL can be improved if users desire.”


Alan Taylor, N7YA, strikes back on the matter…

“I appreciate your concern, however, I don’t think that paper QSLs are a major impact on the environment anymore than environmentally friendly paper bags at the store in lieu of plastic ones. I must disagree about the enjoyment factor of paper QSLs, I enjoy every card that I get…

I actually break out the box from time to time and thumb through them I am not an old fuddy duddy by any means, but I don’t get the same enjoyment from looking at a card on screen as I do from holding a card that made the trip, was filled out and signed by hand from a real operator in some far away place. This is part of the magic that keeps me in a hobby longer than any other I have attempted to endeavor.

I will absolutely agree with your concept when it comes to needless cards going to mega-contest stations…I’m sure the big gun contesters will agree with me…that is a situation that would be better served by electronic means, but it comes down to the signature or manager stamp for awards and such. I accept eQSL for basic courtesy exchanges and I send paper when I need one verified as you pointed out, but there’s a certain enjoyment in getting a small paper card in the mailbox.

Also, take notice that paper logs are considered antiquated nowadays (I still use them for the same reason as the cards, but I digress), most major operations and contest stations use them, computer logging was pretty much non-existent 15 to 20 years ago.

It is my opinion that we are literary running the earth dry; more folks will realize that resources don’t last for ever and we are quite frankly running out of them…it will bite us in the hinder. But finding alternatives to petroleum is a pressing issue, regulating factory and automotive emissions is imperative since deregulation post-2000, I’m with you…but little things like cards only serve to make oneself feel better as opposed to really making an impact, recycling, not dumping used oil down the gutter etc…all great ideas, but unless you can design and present a viable alternative to the paper QSL that can be written on, signed and sent, most will continue to use cardboard…but if you have any ideas, I’ll be more than happy to try it.

By the way, I make my own cards and I print them on 100% recycled cardstock, it works just as well.
Thank you for sounding off on this though.”





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[KG4RUL]

Amateur Radio Equipment and the Environmental Cost

Have you ever considered the amount of chemical pollution generated in the manufacture of, let's say, a VHF/UHF mobile transceiver?

While the semiconductor industry is above average in their pollution measures, every single chip that goes out their doors has a measurable environmental impact. The steel mill that produces the sheet steel for the chassis, the plant that produces aluminum for various components, the plant the produces the printed circuit boards all leave a pollution trail.

So, should we not only stop sending those horribly polluting, paper QSL cards but extend our reach to not buying anymore equipment? Actually, if we don't buy equipment, we won't make contacts and we won't need QSL cards at all! Problem solved!

[w3wn]

This is already being hashed, rehashed, trolled and troll baited to death on eHam. See QSL Cards and Environmental Costs (http://www.eham.net/articles/16991)

Why do we need to do the same here?

[KI4PEQ]

Quote[/b] (w3wn @ July 16 2007,09:59)]This is already being hashed, rehashed, trolled and troll baited to death on eHam. #See QSL Cards and Environmental Costs (http://www.eham.net/articles/16991)

Why do we need to do the same here?
Manure is only effective if spread broadly and evenly. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[wb0m]

And it got downright nasty.

[w3fik]

Most commercially-printed QSL cards are done so on recycled material, of course, some are not. Mine are. Most that are not are printed on virgin paper stock - made from trees that are from tree farms - a renewable source of paper products. So to be honest, I like sending out and receiving such cards. I like the fact that in my own small way, I'm helping the environment as well as business and commerce. My cards are printed in a growing Mom and Pop QSL card print shop. The cost I pay helps feed their family and helps them buy material to make my cards. The recycled stock, being recycled helps the planet, while the recycling company makes money that they pay to their floor workers, their drivers - all of whom need the money or else they would not be working in the first place. Let's really help both the economy and our fragile ecosystem! Let's QSL every contact we ever make. This way, we will need more QSL cards, the print shops will need more ink, printing machines, recycled card stock and everyone will benefit from us QSLing - the Moms and Pops will be happy, as will those who drive the recycling company's trucks, those who service printing presses, everyone! The more we talk on the air, the more QSL cards we can send out, the more money all these people make, the ecology will be better-off, and lest we forget about postal workers who need to be kept busy. Thanks to Cheryl Crow, I'm already using both sides of toilet paper, re-using it when possible! I'm not sure, but don't all those QST and CQ magazines hurt the planet somehow? How about all that paper used in all those new radio owner's manuals? And how about all the stuff used in the manufacturing of our new radios? I'll save a whale once in a while. I'll hug a tree if need be. If the roadkill looks fresh enough and big enough to feed my family, it's getting shoveled into the back of my Suburban, but I happen to like a little dolphin in my tuna and I will keep on QSLing!

[ky5u]

Bulgaria had the distinction of being the worst environmental country in the former Soviet Union. Although some small progress has been made, the still rank among the world's worst top 20 environmental countries if not in the top ten.

Quote[/b] ]From Merrian Webster Dictionary:

Main Entry: lu·di·crous
Pronunciation: 'lü-d&-kr&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin ludicrus, from ludus play, sport; perhaps akin to Greek loidoros abusive
1 : amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity
2 : meriting derisive laughter or scorn as absurdly inept, false, or foolish

This word best describes the concern for QSL Card related environmental issues especially coming from that area of the world. What a joke!

[w3wn]

Quote[/b] (KI4PEQ @ July 16 2007,12:11)]Quote[/b] (w3wn @ July 16 2007,09:59)]This is already being hashed, rehashed, trolled and troll baited to death on eHam. #See QSL Cards and Environmental Costs (http://www.eham.net/articles/16991)

Why do we need to do the same here?
Manure is only effective if spread broadly and evenly. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Good point.

[ka0sog]

I guess a good reason to dodge the cost of sending QSL cards to SWL's is to find an innocent sounding excuse.

[n9lya]

Quote[/b] (KG4RUL @ July 16 2007,03:55)]Amateur Radio Equipment and the Environmental Cost

Have you ever considered the amount of chemical pollution generated in the manufacture of, let's say, a VHF/UHF mobile transceiver? #

While the semiconductor industry is above average in their pollution measures, every single chip that goes out their doors has a measurable environmental impact. #The steel mill that produces the sheet steel for the chassis, the plant that produces aluminum for various components, the plant the produces the printed circuit boards all leave a pollution trail.

So, should we not only stop sending those horribly polluting, paper QSL cards but extend our reach to not buying anymore equipment? #Actually, if we don't buy equipment, we won't make contacts and we won't need QWSL cards at all! #Problem solved!
Good point.. Do you know how much WATER it takes just to make an average TV...

Hundreds maybe thousands.. of Gallons...


73 Jerry n9lya

[ky5u]

We must think outside the box. Just "roll" the house of the killjoy people who are behind this ("roll" refers to decorating their yard with rolls of toilet paper) every week. Then they will have to decide if they want to see more trees killed by continuing to provoke a "roll" response on the reflectors, or if they will shut their yaps and save paper.

Pretty smart huh? LOL!

[ky5u]

Idiot Disclaimer: The above post was a JOKE. Please do not roll anyone's home. And if this warning is necessary for you, then environmental issues are the least of your "issues".

[N2RJ]

Sounds to me like someone is pimping eQSL.CC, the service I will NEVER use again because it was telling people that I do eQSL.CC only!

[W9WHE]

You know, its funny.

Guys like Al Gore can burn 58,000 pounds of PRIVATE JET FUEL traveling to the UN to give a 2 hour speech. That's enough fuel to run 500 SUV's for a month. Yet, Al Gore is somehow an enviornmental hero, while the SUV owner is "destroying the planet". Go figure.

John Edwards can clearcut a forest to build his 28,000 square foot home, and he is an "enviornmentalist". Yet he calls Americans "excessive consumers" of natural resourses. Hummm.

The New York Times consumes more trees in one Sunday printing then all the QSL cards sent in 10 years, and somehow it is OK. But let a few hams send a few 3 X 5 cards and we need to "rethink" our practice?

Perhaps the nutty so-called enviornmentalists need to "rethink" their hipocracy!

W9WHE

[W5EN]

Being old enough to remember when most offices did not have a computer, I am also old enough to remember how computers were going to create a paperless office for users. #
Now we need on paper, charts, graphs, reports, and many other printable matters that at one time we couldn't even generate much less realize we needed. #So if computers cost us so much paper, then lets do away with the buggy things. #Of course then we would have to go back to using paper qsl cards all of the time. #Obviously computers, and the extra reports they now generate are not going away. #Hopefully neither are qsl cards that are hand signed, and delivered from a far off place that shows something of that area's culture. #
One question, arn't trees a renewable resource? #

73 de W5EN Steve

[w3wn]

Quote[/b] (W5EN @ July 16 2007,16:10)]One question, arn't trees a renewable resource? #
They always keep forgetting that part.

[W5HTW]

GET OFF THE INTERNET!!! The electricity you are using is causing some poor little bird to lose its home, and is using at quart of oil to generate. You want to talk to someone? Send them a smoke signal. But don't burn any trees to do it. Do it the way they did 2,000 years ago. Go see them, sit or their porch (with no fresh drinks and no lights) and chat away.

All you internet users are causing a MAJOR environmental problem.

Ed

[n3aiu]

The whole concept that QSL cards are detrimental to the environment is not supported by the facts. #Compared to the trees who valiantly give their lives for the privilege of becoming junk mail, it is merely a drop in the abyss. #The topic has been beaten to death on eham.

Please! #Let's be gentlemen (or gentlepersons) and not start another ugly flame war like the one on eham. #We can state opinions without engaging in personal attacks.

73, Nick N3AIU/DL1NE

[k4avl]

If QSL cards damage the environment, let them outlaw newspapers, which cause a lot more damage. I haven't bought a newspaper in years, I read all of mine on the internet.

[G3SEA]

Future rigs will transmit,store and display a QSL #

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # KH6/G3SEA

[wz9o]

This post belongs on “ragchew” with the other posts from the “loony left”.

[W9IND]

This is really a silly discussion, given the fact that I buy 1,000 QSL cards maybe once every four to five years. And how much wood did it take to make them? Probably less than you'd find in a medium-size branch of an average tree.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not for the rampant waste of our natural resources, but for crying out loud, paper's recyclable, which means you can toss everything from cardboard toilet paper rolls to, yes, unwanted QSL cards (and the envelopes they came in) into the bin.

So, nothing wrong with doing something for the environment, but count the number of times you flipped on your rig in an average week. I'm betting that consumes more resources than it took to print 1,000 QSL cards.

Sheesh ... if WA1WIG really considers it a good idea to eliminate QSL cards, why don't we go whole-hog and eliminate logbooks, too? Just improve your memory and you won't have to write it all down.

[KE5GDB]

I wonder if he's from eQSL.cc and trying to improve their usage... I wouldn't be surprised.

I never really have liked eQSL. They make me feel like I have to buy one of their packages to even make it work. I can't even upload my own .jpg of my current QSL card. Paper QSL cards beat eQSL.cc.

[w2kls]

I just ordered another hundred!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[kr4bd]

Don't forget....trees are a RENEWABLE resource... #

Keep the QSL cards coming!

[KE7CDV]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ July 16 2007,13:07)]
Quote[/b] ]You know, its funny.

Guys like Al Gore can burn 58,000 pounds of PRIVATE JET FUEL traveling to the UN to give a 2 hour speech. That's enough fuel to run 500 SUV's for a month. Yet, Al Gore is somehow an enviornmental hero, while the SUV owner is "destroying the planet". Go figure.

You have it wrong about Al. While he certainly pushes for more fuel efficient vehicles, he has *never* stated this should be done at the expense of quality of living. If you feel like an SUV is the best vehicle for you, I believe that Al will fully support you in buying one and driving it as much as you want -- he just wants it to be more fuel efficient than today's crop, because he's convinced that otherwise global warming is very much going to compromise *everyone's* quality of living! He's primarily interested in making sure that a choice you make today (take a trip on a jet, drive your SUV, etc.) that could impact the environment is done in a manner that either eliminates or minimizes that impact -- he is *not at all* about telling you not to take dozens of trips to Hawaii if you feel like it.

Heck, Al's book has an entire chapter about the economic opportunities in "green" technology -- he definitely thinks there's a buck to be made while "saving" the environment, and he's all for people making those bucks.

In a private forest or on a farm, every time you cut down a tree or harvest some fruit or vegetables, you can bet that the price charged to the recipient includes fees that pay for new trees to be planted, fields to be rotated/replanted, etc. Al is trying to apply this very sensible business model to the planet as a whole...

---Joel

[n1dvj]

This is wild...

While I enjoy a tree. Trees in general for the most part. They shade my yard. They freshen the air. They help provide breathing oxygen. And yes, they can even aid HAM radio by holding one end of my antenna...

And while I DON'T generally do QSL cards...

I'm amazed that someone would consider the USE of a tree wasteful to the environment. Come on. Trees for paper are crop. Next some idiot will worry about the fields of corn!

[K4JF]

Quote[/b] (n1dvj @ July 15 2007,19:50)]Trees for paper are crop. #Next some idiot will worry about the fields of corn!
True. And yes on the second part, especially if he is fueling his SUV with that corn! :o)

[W8OKN]

Is this really for real for real? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[kd6wky]

Oh pahleeze! Go hug a tree and stop worrying about a QSL card in the mail. Good grief, it's not as if all this carbon is being expended just for each individual card. I can't ever remember getting mail and just getting a QSL card. There is alway several other items in my mail box all delivered at the same time as the QSL card. So not sending QSL cards isn't going to do anything accept reduce the my ability to confirm rare dx.

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (W9IND @ July 16 2007,16:09)]Don't get me wrong -- I'm not for the rampant waste of our natural resources...
I am. Buy aerosal sprays made in foreign countries that still have flurocarbons and use them. Leave your car running in the street at least 2 hours a day. Buy and use all styrofoam products. If you burn leaves in your yard, throw an old pillow in the fire to ensure a high hydrocarbon fire. Always use plastic bags at the market. Dig up turtle eggs on the beach and throw into the water. Condors make excellent BB gun practice and eagles taste like chicken when fried.

[KE3G]

I'm 64 and have been a ham for almost 50 years. I cherish my QSL cards, some of which are very old and rare. Wait until you get to be my age, then rethink what you're saying. My QSL cards are some of my most valuable possessions. I also have my dad's QSLs that are even older. He's now a silent key and they help me remember the good times when we shared the rig as I was growing up. eQSLs are for OK for those only interested in awards or those so near sighted as to have no concept of their value as a keepsake.

[M3YAE]

The more I hear the more I want to live on a desert island - This is in my view like trying to stop a philatalist collecting stamps! #Just doesn't make sence all this environmental stuff and it's so hypocritical. #That's right, let's stop other peoples pleasure and its minute impact on globel warming while these bureaucrats jet all over the globe and heat their swimming pools up etc etc. #It stinks and if they think I'm going to be brainwashed by hypocrisy in the name of global warming they can think again! #QSL cards are usually printed on recycled material from sustainable sources and give people gainful employment. #Long live the QSL card!!!

[n0jaa]

Let's just fix the problem right here and now... let's stop using all of our radios and equipment and go back to using tin cans and string.

I am so sick and tired to death of hearing these eco-terrorist whiners complaining about EVERYTHING! Give it a rest, idiots!!!!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[W9WHE]

KE7CDV writes:

"If you feel like an SUV is the best vehicle for you, I believe that Al will fully support you in buying one and driving it as much as you want ....."

Nonsense.
Al is AGAINST SUVs. Nobody except Al and his HUGE entorage should be allowed to have them. Did you read Al's book? He LOOKS FORWARD to $6 gas (taxes being $4) to make SUV's too expensive for everybody but Al. NOBODY should have an SUV, except for Al anyway.

If Al Gore had HIS WAY, we would all be driving Geo Metros, while Al flys around in his Gulfstream 5 Private jet, then being chauffered to his 18,000 square foot home in his black Suburban or Excursion, all the while generating more greenhouse gasses then 100 average families.

If Al Gore was REALLY CONCERNED about generating greenhouse gasses (instead of generating wads of CASH selling BOGUS carbon credits) he would not have a personal carbon footprint that makes king kong look like a midget. He would practice what he preaches! Instead, Al wants all of us to follow his hokey bogus religion, while he lives high on the carbon!

Al's global warming religion is as phony as Al himself. And I, for one, am not going to have such phoney baloney kooks telling me how to run my QSLing!

If Al Gore REALLY wants to save the planet, how come he flys around in a Gulfstream 5 PRIVATE JET BURNING 58,000 POUNDS OF FUEL IN EACH TRIP?


W9WHE

[kr4bd]

To W9WHE . . .

I could not have said it better!

Keep the QSL cards coming!

Tom, KR4BD

[W9WHE]

(blush)
Thank you.....

Here is the real question.
FIRST, it was overpopulation. THEN, it was global cooling. THEN, it was bird flu. NOW, its global warming. What is next for these enviornmental wackos? You know, they JUST HAVE to have a chrisis that will end life as we know it. WHAT WILL THEY INVENT NEXT?

[wz9o]

Global warming is based on wacko science.

All the loony leftist suffer from the same disease…

It’s called….”head up ass disease”.

[kc2egl]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ July 17 2007,15:32)](blush)
Thank you.....

Here is the real question.
FIRST, it was overpopulation. THEN, it was global cooling. THEN, it was bird flu. NOW, its global warming. What is next for these enviornmental wackos? You know, they JUST HAVE to have a chrisis that will end life as we know it. WHAT WILL THEY INVENT NEXT?
The answer...
The population will catch a flu because it was much too cool outside before sun warmed the earth on a particular day 200 years ago, which will be our fault because we do not have enough bogus 'Al' carbon credits in our carbon expense account.

The left gets 'dumber' by the moment.

If only El-Rushbo the Maha'Rush'ie could read this

[N6OOB]

Well I think there are pleanty of other things that are impacting the environment much more than some QSL cards. Lets not get into the lead in the solder that makes all of our amps/rigs/etc.

Hams are such a small group, and the ones that QSL are even smaller. Whereas you look at a text book company. Why cant they release text books on CD since most students now use laptops anyway? I think we might as well fight that battle as well if we fight this one... oh ya libraries too... just put it all online and access it from a PC. I mean who really likes to hold the book and flip through it anyhow?

[wa4gch]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ July 16 2007,09:46)]Bulgaria had the distinction of being the worst environmental country in the former Soviet Union. Although some small progress has been made, the still rank among the world's worst top 20 environmental countries if not in the top ten.

Quote[/b] ]From Merrian Webster Dictionary:

Main Entry: lu·di·crous
Pronunciation: 'lü-d&-kr&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin ludicrus, from ludus play, sport; perhaps akin to Greek loidoros abusive
1 : amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity
2 : meriting derisive laughter or scorn as absurdly inept, false, or foolish

This word best describes the concern for QSL Card related environmental issues especially coming from that area of the world. #What a joke!
DAMN THE INVIREMENT FULL QSL AHEAD .....


Waiting for 6 meters to open .....

[aa1mn]

Why don't we freeze to death starving in the dark? Would that be environmentally friendly enough for ya?

Chuck, AA1MN

[wa4gch]

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ July 18 2007,04:42)]Why don't we freeze to death starving in the dark? #Would that be environmentally friendly enough for ya?

Chuck, AA1MN
Chuck ....

If we did someone would say we had lowered the global warming index since we no longer had BODY HEAT ......


DANG TIME TO PRINT MORE CARDS ........

[k7fd]

Concerned for the environment? CW uses less oxygen than phone...

[WH7HI]

The author has a valid point, however not one worthy of great consideration at this time.

When the time comes that my mailbox isn't filled with junk mail everyday (most of which we all throw in the trash without ever reading), then I'll change to eqsl.

Junk mail is a much bigger environmental concern but it is also a big money maker for a lot of people, including the US Post Office. For this reason, I assume it is 'hands off'.

[KD6NIG]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ July 17 2007,10:57)]KE7CDV writes:

"If you feel like an SUV is the best vehicle for you, I believe that Al will fully support you in buying one and driving it as much as you want ....."

Nonsense.
Al is AGAINST SUVs. Nobody except Al and his HUGE entorage should be allowed to have them. Did you read Al's book? He LOOKS FORWARD to $6 gas (taxes being $4) to make SUV's too expensive for everybody but Al. NOBODY should have an SUV, except for Al anyway.

If Al Gore had HIS WAY, we would all be driving Geo Metros, while Al flys around in his Gulfstream 5 Private jet, then being chauffered to his 18,000 square foot home in his black Suburban or Excursion, all the while generating more greenhouse gasses then 100 average families.

If Al Gore was REALLY CONCERNED about generating greenhouse gasses (instead of generating wads of CASH selling BOGUS carbon credits) he would not have a personal carbon footprint that makes king kong look like a midget. He would practice what he preaches! Instead, Al wants all of us to follow his hokey bogus religion, while he lives high on the carbon!

Al's global warming religion is as phony as Al himself. And I, for one, am not going to have such phoney baloney kooks telling me how to run my QSLing!

If Al Gore REALLY wants to save the planet, how come he flys around in a Gulfstream 5 PRIVATE JET BURNING 58,000 POUNDS OF FUEL IN EACH TRIP?


W9WHE
Al's just irritated that he has to wait for clearance to get that Gulfstream off the ground, and that he has to dodge other cars when driving to his next appearance.

He figures if he suckers all of us into reducing our carbon footprint, then he has more ability to produce it on his own, and we'll not be driving as much, nor consuming as much fuel, ensuring that the date of oil running out gets pushed back enough that he won't see it in his lifetime.

But seriously though. If they are really serious about this reduction stuff, I would start with power generation. I'd offer up my roof area on my house in exchange for a 50% reduction in my power bill, and they could keep the excess, no problem. I'm sure if they came up with such a program, there would be plenty of people willing to do it, and you'd probably start making a good dent in the pollution problem. I have yet to meet an environmentalist that lives in a house without power. Since this appears to be a common theme that people need and want power, and its one of those things we can try to conserve a little, but still actually need (you can't just not use power, like you can not just drive) it would be a good place to start awareness.

I think if you got people to think about that pretty hard, and got people to ante up to help the power grid, the natural progression would be to other things because people would see it every day. The main problem right now is that, though you do save money on your electric bill, the initial investment in things from light bulbs to switching out that old air conditioner on the roof is monatary. I know they already offer rebates and stuff, but if these people are honestly serious about this stuff, they would push to get those kind of rebates increased. I'm not saying everyone would, but people would probably not mind being a little more aware and helpful if it was more cost effective. The bottom line is always the bottom line, and all the people who preach about this don't have a problem converting their entire house to lower consumption bulbs, for example. But to a family thats got a tight budget.... lets see, 69 cents for a light bulb, or $5 for one, which one do you think they will grab? But, bring that bulb down to $2.50 and maybe they will consider it. I know I slowly converted. I didn't go through my house, count the bulbs, and go, ok, lets blow $50 on new light bulbs for a few cents off the bill every month.

And sure, long term savings are good, but many people live in the now. Why do you think they hock themselves up to their necks to get what they think they need to have, now instead of later? Sure, I've saved up for ham rigs, but many people don't-and with that kind of sight, they won't see the fact that, over time, sure they are saving money on their electric bill. But when they read the package, they say...bah and buy the cheaper ones. See, I have that $4 I didn't spend in my pocket now! Hurray! Anyone want Starbucks?

The way I see it, we subsidize the heck out of everything. Why not subsidize stuff like this. I'm sure if we pull a few coal plants offline because we have some more "solar communities" going online, that oughta help a bit, right?

The other thing though is the fact that many of these groups are ultra radical. They want you to do everything. Use one square of TP a day. Get a hybrid car (which, if you work it out, costs more. Sure you save gas but you paid 10 grand more for it, so thats good, because you wouldn't be able to afford it anyway!). Then you have the loons who put spikes in trees so loggers get injured or killed, even though a lot of those companies know what side the bread is buttered on and replant, because if there are no trees to cut, then they put themselves out of business!

I think instead of pushing for all of this radical savings, if they would just say, hey think about it, change your habits, go the speed limit on the freeway instead of 10 over, change out your light bulbs as you can afford it, hey, maybe give that non aerosol spray a try, instead of RAID, try this natural bug killer, etc, maybe more people would give it a try. But all you see right now is this radical stuff, and people get annoyed with it and say "forget it" and not only do they NOT try, they go against it and use stuff purposely BAD!

I think asking everyone to do a little, in the long run, would work better, and if people get used to it, they will do more. But the gung-ho "you're a scummy human if you don't conserve!" stuff doesn't work either.

Awareness and making it more affordable would be a good first step into getting people to at least TRY stuff out. Get everyone to do a little and it would add up. Quit being so radical about it, get the products out there, have people try them, discover they saved a few bucks a month on the old power bill, and they will probably try more. Quit being so radical about it and people would probably try it a lot more.

[w1yw]

QSL's are indeed a waste---OF SPACE. I couldn't care less the enviro stuff.

Same with newspapers--I haven't sat down to read a newspaper in 10 years.

So just because one agrees with the outcome of being 'green' doesn't mean you advocate it.

73,
Chip W1YW

[w1yw]

The faster we use up fossil fuels, the faster we drive the solution. Same with paper qsl's.

Historically, humans run on sequnced bell curves of use: when one starts on the decline, another takes over. In this case, the availability and validity of e-qsls is on the rise and paper QSL's on the decline.

The problem with old qsl's is they become fodder for the same micro-bugs that eat up old library books. Really gross.

Of course, you can try selling 'em on ebay--there's quite a litle biz there on 'radio postcards'.

[N2MMM]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ July 17 2007,10:57)]KE7CDV writes:

"If you feel like an SUV is the best vehicle for you, I believe that Al will fully support you in buying one and driving it as much as you want ....."

Nonsense.
Al is AGAINST SUVs. Nobody except Al and his HUGE entorage should be allowed to have them. Did you read Al's book? He LOOKS FORWARD to $6 gas (taxes being $4) to make SUV's too expensive for everybody but Al. NOBODY should have an SUV, except for Al anyway.

If Al Gore had HIS WAY, we would all be driving Geo Metros, while Al flys around in his Gulfstream 5 Private jet, then being chauffered to his 18,000 square foot home in his black Suburban or Excursion, all the while generating more greenhouse gasses then 100 average families.

If Al Gore was REALLY CONCERNED about generating greenhouse gasses (instead of generating wads of CASH selling BOGUS carbon credits) he would not have a personal carbon footprint that makes king kong look like a midget. He would practice what he preaches! Instead, Al wants all of us to follow his hokey bogus religion, while he lives high on the carbon!

Al's global warming religion is as phony as Al himself. And I, for one, am not going to have such phoney baloney kooks telling me how to run my QSLing!

If Al Gore REALLY wants to save the planet, how come he flys around in a Gulfstream 5 PRIVATE JET BURNING 58,000 POUNDS OF FUEL IN EACH TRIP?


W9WHE
Youy know something? your president will go down as the stup[idest individual to ever hold that office and that moronic war in Iraq is the number one reason why although there are MANY other foolish things that idiot has done with the CONTINUED support of most republicans. I'd rather eat cow dung than EVER vote for ANY "conservative" or republican.

[KE7CDV]

Quote[/b] (w1yw @ July 18 2007,09:16)]
Quote[/b] ]The faster we use up fossil fuels, the faster we drive the solution.

True, although at some point we *might* start to run out of solutions. If you look at all the technology developed in the past couple thousand years -- and all the energy required to create it -- it's clearly increased man's standard of living enormously. Even 100 years ago, life was *much* harder than it is today. It's pretty much impossible for me to think what our human race will be like 1,000 much less 10,000 years from now, even though both are miniscule delays in the context of the history of the universe.

10,000 years from now, I imagine that pretty much all the naturally occurring oil on planet Earth *will* be gone. But I also expect that nuclear energy will be abundant, and we'll be able to create synthetic oils as needed. The fact that the U.S. uses very little nuclear energy today is, IMO, a reflection of just how rich a country we are -- other countries simply don't have the *luxury* of continuing to burn oil as we do.

At some point the human race will have to leave the planet if it wants to continue to exist, and while that point is far enough away that I expect it won't be much of a technological problem, the more interesting question has always been whether or not man will kill himself off first due to wars, poverty, and disease. I think the "give peace a chance" guys often look at it the wrong way: "Peace" is relatively easy to obtain within a society, so long as you rule with an iron first, crushing anyone who disagrees with your policies. "Freedom" is a much more difficult goal to obtain (and define), and it's what many people in this world continue to fight and die for on a daily basis.

Sorry for the woefully off-topic rant...

---Joel KOlstad
KE7CDV

[wa4gch]

Quote[/b] (w1yw @ July 18 2007,09:16)]The faster we use up fossil fuels, the faster we drive the solution. Same with paper qsl's.

Historically, humans run on sequnced bell curves of use: when one starts on the decline, another takes over. #In this case, the availability and validity of e-qsls is on the rise and paper QSL's on the decline.

The problem with old qsl's is they become fodder for the same micro-bugs that eat up old library books. Really gross.

Of course, you can try selling 'em on ebay--there's quite a litle biz there on 'radio postcards'.
They will have to rip my paper QSLs out of my cold dead hands .......

CW is better than phone ..... I DON'T think so .... Look at how much is expended to move that lever on that key and brain power be used to read it.

Now CW IS a wast of resorces .... and gray matter all that good band space could be going to MORE DIGITAL modes.....

[KE7CDV]

Quote[/b] ]Did you read Al's book?

Yes, although it was something like four or five years ago now so I'm pretty fuzzy on the details.

Quote[/b] ]He LOOKS FORWARD to $6 gas (taxes being $4) to make SUV's too expensive for everybody but Al.

If those taxes support things like alternative energy research, attempting to mitigate damage to the environment from exhaust emissions (yes, I know this is very difficult to define), etc., I think that's a proper use. #If it's just strictly to influence behavior (i.e., a "sin" tax), they I wouldn't support it.

If gasoline went up to $6/gallon tomorrow, I suspect that there'd be only a small reduction in the country's consumption; in many countries gas is *already* at $6/gallon.

Quote[/b] ]If Al Gore had HIS WAY, we would all be driving Geo Metros, while Al flys around in his Gulfstream 5 Private jet, then being chauffered to his 18,000 square foot home in his black Suburban or Excursion, all the while generating more greenhouse gasses then 100 average families.

Keep in mind that his home is also his office, where he has significant staff and various people coming and going for meetings. #While Al arguably has a fancier lifestyle the average American (and buku more money), it's not fair to attribute *all* of his carbon emissions to extravagance, any more than it would be to take a steel mill worker and add the carbon emissions for the plant he works at to his personal carbon footprint.

Al also buys carbon offsets so that his home/office is "carbon neutral." #I realize that many people see this as a form of "cheating," but I think it just strengthens my point that Al is all for doing whatever you or your business wants, so long as it's in an environmentally friendly way.

Quote[/b] ]If Al Gore REALLY wants to save the planet, how come he flys around in a Gulfstream 5 PRIVATE JET BURNING 58,000 POUNDS OF FUEL IN EACH TRIP?

I would guess it's because he feels it's the most effective and comfortable way to get around, and he has the money to afford to buy carbon offsets to allow himself to do so and still sleep at night.

---Joel
KE7CDV

[WA7KKP]

I bought QSL cards as a novice, and have NEVER had them since . . .

When postage was a dime, or a quarter, they weren't too expensive. Now, at today's prices, I don't QSL unless I ask first, and then I'd send mine first class with SASE, so that's almost a buck shot right there, not counting the cost of the card.

I don't need that expensive of wallpaper. A nice coat of latex eggshell white is good enough for me. I know to who and where I've talked.

Gary WA7KKP

[va3to]

Most individual offices produce more scrap paper in a week than I will consume in QSL cards over my lifetime. i.e. orphaned print jobs and test prints at the laser printer.

Pardon the pun but I think we're barking up the wrong tree here http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

73 de Hugh VA3TO

[k8elr]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ July 17 2007,05:57)]Nonsense.
Al is AGAINST SUVs. Nobody except Al and his HUGE entorage should be allowed to have them. Did you read Al's book? He LOOKS FORWARD to $6 gas (taxes being $4) to make SUV's too expensive for everybody but Al. NOBODY should have an SUV, except for Al anyway.

If Al Gore had HIS WAY, we would all be driving Geo Metros, while Al flys around in his Gulfstream 5 Private jet, then being chauffered to his 18,000 square foot home in his black Suburban or Excursion, all the while generating more greenhouse gasses then 100 average families.

If Al Gore was REALLY CONCERNED about generating greenhouse gasses (instead of generating wads of CASH selling BOGUS carbon credits) he would not have a personal carbon footprint that makes king kong look like a midget. He would practice what he preaches! Instead, Al wants all of us to follow his hokey bogus religion, while he lives high on the carbon!

Al's global warming religion is as phony as Al himself. And I, for one, am not going to have such phoney baloney kooks telling me how to run my QSLing!

If Al Gore REALLY wants to save the planet, how come he flys around in a Gulfstream 5 PRIVATE JET BURNING 58,000 POUNDS OF FUEL IN EACH TRIP?


W9WHE
Yep blame it on AL. Everyone knows it's his fault.
Yep him and those freakin' idiot left wingers. Yep damn hippies. I say hang 'em all and let god, budda, ruskies, commies, pinkos, well somebody sort em out.
WTF over.... 10-4, roger, roger as they say der gud buddy..
what a f*ing joke. more qsl cards, more cards please..can't get enough of dem dare cards... dat horse be ded dare I recconn der gud buddy.

je

[KB5DPE]

This joker already hashed and rehashed this subject on another website; apparently he didn't get enough attention there so, now, he's got to try QRZ! #I couldn't say it better than the following:
#Quote (KI4PEQ @ July 16 2007,12:11)
Quote (w3wn @ July 16 2007,09:59)
This is already being hashed, rehashed, trolled and troll baited to death on eHam. #See QSL Cards and Environmental Costs

Why do we need to do the same here?

Manure is only effective if spread broadly and evenly. #

Gerry, give it up! #It doesn't even make sense! #This is like an Indy driver spending hours to make sure that his dice are hanging evenly on his mirror! #IT DOESN'T ADDRESS THE ISSUE AT HAND! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[K2PG]

If the Lord didn't want us to pollute, He would have constipated all of us!

[K2PG]

Quote[/b] (wa4gch @ July 17 2007,13:53)]Now CW IS a wast of resorces .... and gray matter all that good band space could be going to MORE DIGITAL modes.....
CW telegraphy is a digital mode! It's the oldest digital mode, using on-off keying, and it can be decoded automatically (by computer) or manually.

Of course, in New York and New Jersey, "digital communications" means communicating by raising the middle finger of the right hand on high!

[K2PG]

Quote[/b] (KE7CDV @ July 17 2007,13:56)]Al also buys carbon offsets so that his home/office is "carbon neutral." I realize that many people see this as a form of "cheating," but I think it just strengthens my point that Al is all for doing whatever you or your business wants, so long as it's in an environmentally friendly way.
Of course, the environmental Chicken Littles conveniently ignore the body of real science that shows global warming (and cooling) to be a naturally occurring cycle that has nothing to do with human intervention. Trying to stop global warming is like trying to stop the tide from coming in.

Research in Greenland shows evidence that Greenland was actually green hundreds or thousands of years ago. Where there is now thick ice and tundra, Greenland once had forests like the ones in eastern Canada, along with insects and other fauna like those found in Canada today. Fossils of tropical vegetation have been found in Pennsylvania coal. Anyone who has spent a winter in the Pennsylvania coal region knows that the climate there nowadays is anything but tropical! Why did the dinosaurs become extinct? If it was due to climate change, no humans existed at the time! The woolly mammoth, an elephant-like mammal once found in northern Russia and Canada, went extinct about 10,000 years ago. Global warming is believed to have caused the mammoths to die out, but there was not enough of a human population to have made any difference in the levels of "greenhouse gases" and there weren't enough humans in those areas to have hunted the mammoths to extinction. In fact, some mammoths frozen in the permafrost of that region have not shown any signs of injury. They simply died , fell into mud or snow, then froze, to be well-preserved to this day.

Weren't the enviro-wackos predicting a new Ice Age just thirty years ago due to pollutants blocking out sunlight? What's coming, global warming or an Ice Age?

If the authorities really want to control carbon dioxide emissions, they should ban clear-cutting of land and encourage the planting of trees and other green plants, as these consume carbon dioxide. All the anti-global warming protocol will do is hasten the de-industrialization of the United States, Europe, and Japan while exporting our jobs to India and China.

I'll believe the "global warming" Chicken Littles when I can plant a successful citrus grove near Scranton, Pennsylvania and sit under palm trees in Central Park.

[n0jaa]

Quote[/b] (N6OOB @ July 17 2007,22:58)]I mean who really likes to hold the book and flip through it anyhow?
I do. #Especially if it is an old book. #Old books have that distinctive odor and feel that always make me wax nostalgic, or at least contemplative. #Nothing gets the writing juices in me going like an old book does!

[n0jaa]

Algore's one huge flaw in all of this is that he is trying to fix the SYMPTOM, instead of fix the underlying PROBLEM. You can cure a patient's symptoms, but if you don't cure the problem, the patient is going to die anyway.

[wa4gch]

Quote[/b] (K2PG @ July 19 2007,06:49)]Quote[/b] (wa4gch @ July 17 2007,13:53)]Now CW IS a wast of resorces .... #and gray matter all that good band space could be going to MORE DIGITAL modes.....
CW telegraphy is a digital mode! It's the oldest digital mode, using on-off keying, and it can be decoded automatically (by computer) or manually.

Of course, in New York and New Jersey, "digital communications" means communicating by raising the middle finger of the right hand on high!
GOOD THEN WE AGREE NO DIGITAL SIGNAL SHOULD EXCEED 500 hz ......

Protecting 6 meters from the digital elete .....

[ac7dx]

Eqsl sucks:laugh:

[W9WHE]

"While Al arguably has a fancier lifestyle the average American... it's not fair to attribute *all* of his carbon emissions to extravagance....."

Give me a break!
Al burns 58,000 pounds of jet fuel for EACH trip to the UN, just to give a 2 hour speech. That's roughly the same amount of emissions by 100 SUVs for a month. Instead of attacking MY SUV, how about we just GROUND #AL GORE

W9WHE

[N2MMM]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ July 23 2007,13:18)]"While Al arguably has a fancier lifestyle the average American... it's not fair to attribute *all* of his carbon emissions to extravagance....."

Give me a break!
Al burns 58,000 pounds of jet fuel for EACH trip to the UN, just to give a 2 hour speech. That's roughly the same amount of emissions by 100 SUVs for a month. Instead of attacking MY SUV, how about we just GROUND #AL GORE

W9WHE

You are paying plenty enough for your SUV to the Bush oil cabal. Looks like oil billionaire Roger Mellon Scaife got his money worth when he hobbled the Clinton Administration with the Lewinsky BS. You conservative idiots ought to be ASHAMED of yourselves. I know this much, NOTHING can clean tha shame of a Bush supporter. Just hide yourselves, you are ALL dirt.

[WA5BEN]

Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ July 23 2007,15:38)]Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ July 23 2007,13:18)]"While Al arguably has a fancier lifestyle the average American... it's not fair to attribute *all* of his carbon emissions to extravagance....."

Give me a break!
Al burns 58,000 pounds of jet fuel for EACH trip to the UN, just to give a 2 hour speech. That's roughly the same amount of emissions by 100 SUVs for a month. Instead of attacking MY SUV, how about we just GROUND AL GORE

W9WHE

You are paying plenty enough for your SUV to the Bush oil cabal. Looks like oil billionaire Roger Mellon Scaife got his money worth when he hobbled the Clinton Administration with the Lewinsky BS. You conservative idiots ought to be ASHAMED of yourselves. I know this much, NOTHING can clean tha shame of a Bush supporter. Just hide yourselves, you are ALL dirt.
Just as a few FACTUAL notes:

1. The price of oil is controlled primarily by speculators. The President has no control of it.

2. When Kuwati oil was shut off, the President successfully urged the oil producing nations in the Middle East to increase production, thereby STABILIZING prices.

3. If all Iraqi oil shipments stopped tomorrow, ther would be a momentary spike in price, followed by a return to just about the same level.

4. Gas prices have gone DOWN over the past month. They are now averaging about $2.75/gal.

5. On an "average income" basis, gas is FAR less expensive today than it was in 1973.

6. The United States has UNTAPPED oil reserves that could meet most of our needs, but the access to them continues to be blocked by the SAME raving lunatics who insist that "global warming" is "science" -- as opposed to "junk science".

7. The worst President we ever had, Jimmy Carter, absolutely WRECKED the U.S. oil industry with his "windfall profits tax". Exploration STOPPED, because companies could not afford the risk for an excessively low return.

8. The major oil company profits are currently running around 10%. I can get FAR better return -- and have FAR less risk -- in the stock market.

9. When Hillary started her socialized medicine nonsense, a typical office visit was about $30, and a visit to the ER was about $350. Since the "medical" corporations who funded her bought up all of the once-private hospitals, a simple ER visit (simple bandages and a couple of X-Rays) will set you back at least $2000. Because of all of the added paperwork, a doctor visit now averages almost $100 -- and there are now FEWER doctors.

As for the SUV milage that you seem so concerned about: My Ford Expedition Limited AVERAGED 18.8 mpg over 4850 miles -- including twice across the Rocky Mountains at 7500 and 9600 feet. (My average speed on the highway was around 80 mph.) The route:

Richardson (Dallas area), Texas
Amarillo, Texas
Flagstaff, AZ
Sedona, AZ
Pheonix, AZ,
Palm Springs, CA
Los Angeles, CA (5 days in LA traffic)
Sunnyvale, CA (3 days in San Francisco traffic)
Reno, NV
Salt Lake City, UT
Cheyenne, WY
Denver, CO
Raton, NM,
Amarillo, TX,
Richardson, TX

Not one single Japanese "SUV" -- including the Japanese copies of the Explorer -- can match that mileage. Not one Japanese pick-up truck can match that mileage. If you want to complain about "gas guzzlers", you need to complain about the Japanese companies. (Typical gas mileage of a Japanese V-8 pick-up is under 12 mpg !)

Left-wing lunacy has no thought process ! Just regurgitate the same lines until you begin to believe them -- just like right-wing lunacy.

I live in the middle, where a man is judged by his DEEDS and by how he keeps his WORD. Even if I disagree politically, I will still respect a man if his DEEDS match his WORD, and his WORD is as good as a contract. If he fails that simple test, I have no respect for him.

The troops who are deployed in Iraq apply pretty much the same kind of test. That is why they continue to support the President. (Yes, I have family there, and the troops are just about 100% behind the President.)

The troops MAJOR worry is Pelozi and her cronies, as the POLITICALLY INSPIRED "pull them out" nonsense is getting our guys and lots of Iraqis killed. If the polls suddenly showed 75% favored the war, you can be GUARANTEED that Pelozi would suddenly become "pro" instead of "con". A true LEADER cannot listen to polls. He/she must decide what is right, and go ahead -- regardless of polls. The problem is that there are DARNED few leaders today -- and NONE visible in the Democratic party.

.... and I sorely miss being able to choose between TWO good candidates -- one from each party !

[N2MMM]

Quote[/b] (WA5BEN @ July 24 2007,21:11)]Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ July 23 2007,15:38)]Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ July 23 2007,13:18)]"While Al arguably has a fancier lifestyle the average American... it's not fair to attribute *all* of his carbon emissions to extravagance....."

Give me a break!
Al burns 58,000 pounds of jet fuel for EACH trip to the UN, just to give a 2 hour speech. That's roughly the same amount of emissions by 100 SUVs for a month. Instead of attacking MY SUV, how about we just GROUND #AL GORE

W9WHE

You are paying plenty enough for your SUV to the Bush oil cabal. Looks like oil billionaire Roger Mellon Scaife got his money worth when he hobbled the Clinton Administration with the Lewinsky BS. You conservative idiots ought to be ASHAMED of yourselves. I know this much, NOTHING can clean tha shame of a Bush supporter. Just hide yourselves, you are ALL dirt.
Just as a few FACTUAL notes:

1. #The price of oil is controlled primarily by speculators. #The President has no control of it.

2. #When Kuwati oil was shut off, the President successfully urged the oil producing nations in the Middle East to increase production, thereby STABILIZING prices.

3. #If all Iraqi oil shipments stopped tomorrow, ther would be a momentary spike in price, followed by a return to just about the same level.

4. #Gas prices have gone DOWN over the past month. #They are now averaging about $2.75/gal.

5. #On an "average income" basis, gas is FAR less expensive today than it was in 1973.

6. #The United States has UNTAPPED oil reserves that could meet most of our needs, but the access to them continues to be blocked by the SAME raving lunatics who insist that "global warming" is "science" -- as opposed to "junk science".

7. #The worst President we ever had, Jimmy Carter, absolutely WRECKED the U.S. oil industry with his "windfall profits tax". #Exploration STOPPED, because companies could not afford the risk for an excessively low return.

8. #The major oil company profits are currently running around 10%. #I can get FAR better return -- and have FAR less risk -- in the stock market.

9. #When Hillary started her socialized medicine nonsense, a typical office visit was about $30, and a visit to the ER was about $350. #Since the "medical" corporations who funded her bought up all of the once-private hospitals, a simple ER visit (simple bandages and a couple of X-Rays) will set you back at least $2000. #Because of all of the added paperwork, a doctor visit now averages almost $100 -- and there are now FEWER doctors.

As for the SUV milage that you seem so concerned about: #My Ford Expedition Limited AVERAGED 18.8 mpg over 4850 miles -- including twice across the Rocky Mountains at 7500 and 9600 feet. #(My average speed on the highway was around 80 mph.) #The route:

Richardson (Dallas area), Texas
Amarillo, Texas
Flagstaff, AZ
Sedona, AZ
Pheonix, AZ,
Palm Springs, CA
Los Angeles, CA #(5 days in LA traffic)
Sunnyvale, CA (3 days in San Francisco traffic)
Reno, NV
Salt Lake City, UT
Cheyenne, WY
Denver, CO
Raton, NM,
Amarillo, TX,
Richardson, TX

Not one single Japanese "SUV" -- including the Japanese copies of the Explorer -- can match that mileage. #Not one Japanese pick-up truck can match that mileage. #If you want to complain about "gas guzzlers", you need to complain about the Japanese companies. #(Typical gas mileage of a Japanese V-8 pick-up is under 12 mpg !)

Left-wing lunacy has no thought process ! #Just regurgitate the same lines until you begin to believe them -- just like right-wing lunacy.

I live in the middle, where a man is judged by his DEEDS and by how he keeps his WORD. #Even if I disagree politically, I will still respect a man if his DEEDS match his WORD, and his WORD is as good as a contract. #If he fails that simple test, I have no respect for him.

The troops who are deployed in Iraq apply pretty much the same kind of test. #That is why they continue to support the President. #(Yes, I have family there, and the troops are just about 100% behind the President.) #

The troops MAJOR worry is Pelozi and her cronies, as the POLITICALLY INSPIRED "pull them out" nonsense is getting our guys and lots of Iraqis killed. #If the polls suddenly showed 75% favored the war, you can be GUARANTEED that Pelozi would suddenly become "pro" instead of "con". #A true LEADER cannot listen to polls. #He/she must decide what is right, and go ahead -- regardless of polls. #The problem is that there are DARNED few leaders today -- and NONE visible in the Democratic party.

.... and I sorely miss being able to choose between TWO good candidates -- one from each party !

If the president did his job, he'd work with Congress to put those speculators out of business.
As for the troops supporting Bush, well Al Qaida now OWNS the parts of Iraq that Iran doesn't, thanke to the idiot Bush. If they want to fight in Iraq, let them do it on someone else's dime, I want MY military tax dollars to go to kill Bin Laden who is not in Iraq.

[W9WHE]

N2MMM writes:

"If the president did his job, he'd work with Congress to put those speculators out of business"

Spoken like a true socialist.
Kill capitalism, the engine of prosperity that generates the taxes you socialists like to collect. While you are at it, why not put Stock speculators (like Hillary Clinton) out of business? And what about land speculators (like Harry Reid) ? Heck, why not just outlaw private property altogether?

My friend. Communism and socialism don't work. Remember the USSR? TOTAL AND COMPLETE FAILURE. The Russian and Chinese socialists are going capitalistic. They get it. Get with the program!


+++++++++++++++





K8ELR writes:

"Yep blame it on AL. Everyone knows it's his fault.
Yep him and those freakin' idiot left wingers. Yep damn hippies. I say hang 'em all and let god, budda, ruskies, commies, pinkos, well somebody sort em out"

I could not have said it better myself!

[N2MMM]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ July 25 2007,07:48)]N2MMM writes:

"If the president did his job, he'd work with Congress to put those speculators out of business"

Spoken like a true socialist.
Kill capitalism, the engine of prosperity that generates the taxes you socialists like to collect. While you are at it, why not put Stock speculators (like Hillary Clinton) out of business? And what about land speculators (like Harry Reid) ? Heck, why not just outlaw private property altogether?

My friend. Communism and socialism don't work. Remember the USSR? TOTAL AND COMPLETE FAILURE. The Russian and Chinese socialists are going capitalistic. They get it. Get with the program!


+++++++++++++++





K8ELR writes:

"Yep blame it on AL. Everyone knows it's his fault.
Yep him and those freakin' idiot left wingers. Yep damn hippies. I say hang 'em all and let god, budda, ruskies, commies, pinkos, well somebody sort em out"

I could not have said it better myself!
Thanks to Bush's bungling, Russia is going back to communism. Look what happened to Lukos Oil.

China IS going SOMEWHAT capitalist with the resultant improvement in the standard of living of the average Chinese but the REAL magnet for US investors, AND MAKE NO MISTAKE, THOSE RELOCATED US MANUFACTURING PLANTS ARE 49% OWNED BY US COMPANIES (The other 51% is owned by the Chinese government) is that the Chinese government RUNS the health care system over there. If you have stock in Morgan Stanley (A major 49% owner of Chinese outsource manufacturing plants) you'd better PRAY TO GOD that China doesn't backslide like Russia did. If that happens, I'll just live in the woods and eat off of the land. because the resulting DEPRESSION will knock our service economy over like a rotten tree.

[W9WHE]

But what about "speculators" like Hillary Clinton and Harry Reid? Shouldn't congress put a stop to them also? Or, are they somehow "immune" from your criticizums, because they are also socialists?

[WK5X]

I thought I had heard it all; giving up my QSLs to save the planet? What an asinine idea. As if the planet were actually imperiled. This is not about "saving the planet". It's about you greenie-weenies forcing your morals and your religion on the rest of us.

We'll I'm off to work some DX on 20 meters; QSLs from such will be shipped off to the "buro" in the morning.

I won't bow to your idols.

[N2MMM]

Quote[/b] (WK5X @ July 25 2007,17:41)]I thought I had heard it all; giving up my QSLs to save the planet? What an asinine idea. As if the planet were actually imperiled. This is not about "saving the planet". It's about you greenie-weenies forcing your morals and your religion on the rest of us.

We'll I'm off to work some DX on 20 meters; QSLs from such will be shipped off to the "buro" in the morning.

I won't bow to your idols.
Just recycle a few newspapers to make up for the QSLs and even the "greenie weenies" should be happy. The environmental impact of a few QSL cards is SQUAT in the grand scheme of things. IDIOTS.

[WK5X]

No. I won't do it.

[W9WHE]

N2MMM:

But what about "speculators" like Hillary Clinton and Harry Reid?
Shouldn't congress put a stop to them also? Or, are they somehow "immune" from your criticizums, because they are also socialists?

[WK5X]

It's typical of the left, once they realize they've lost the argument, to begin calling names. The "happiness" of the environmental-wackos is not my objective. Defeating them IS my objective. The Greens are the former Reds.

[WA5BEN]

Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ July 25 2007,07:46)]If the president did his job, he'd work with Congress to put those speculators out of business.

As for the troops supporting Bush, well Al Qaida now OWNS the parts of Iraq that Iran doesn't, thanke to the idiot Bush. If they want to fight in Iraq, let them do it on someone else's dime, I want MY military tax dollars to go to kill Bin Laden who is not in Iraq.
"Put the speculators out of business": Spoken like a person who has absolutely NO idea of the world economy ! Those who trade in the worldwide COMMODITIES MARKET are the speculators. The U.S. government has ZERO control, other than for the portions in the U.S.

Re: Iraq -- The majority of Iraq is fairly well under control. A few idiots blowing themselves up does not "control" make. The troops who have been there cannot believe how WRONG the news media -- and Pelozi's goons -- are. The guys who put their lives on the line see and report an ENTIRELY different picture than that spread by the media.

Only someone with ZERO understanding of intelligence and ZERO understanding of military operations would assume that Bin Laden could be killed or captured as a result of spending more money ANYWHERE.

The fact is that killing Bin Laden is a "nice to have", but it has NO importance to winning the war against the terrorists. We are winning that war by NOT shooting people, by building up communities, and by working WITH the Iraqis.

That marginalizes the terrorists and costs them more dearly than thousands of bullets and many millions of dollars. In a nutshell, FREEDOM is what the terrorists are afraid of -- and what they are fighting against.

Unlike most "experts", I have spent literally YEARS in the Middle East. I have worked with every level of person from the streets to the palaces in almost every country there. I know and respect the people.

I have deep and trusting friendships with many Arabs -- both Muslim and Christian. Islam is NOT an enemy. Terrorists are the enemy. That they hide behind a PERVERTED "version" of a peaceful religion makes them all the more despicable.

[wa4gch]

Quote[/b] (WA5BEN @ July 26 2007,20:01)]Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ July 25 2007,07:46)]If the president did his job, he'd work with Congress to put those speculators out of business.

As for the troops supporting Bush, well Al Qaida now OWNS the parts of Iraq that Iran doesn't, thanke to the idiot Bush. If they want to fight in Iraq, let them do it on someone else's dime, I want MY military tax dollars to go to kill Bin Laden who is not in Iraq.
"Put the speculators out of business": #Spoken like a person who has absolutely NO idea of the world economy ! #Those who trade in the worldwide COMMODITIES MARKET are the speculators. #The U.S. government has ZERO control, other than for the portions in the U.S.

Re: #Iraq -- The majority of Iraq is fairly well under control. #A few idiots blowing themselves up does not "control" make. #The troops who have been there cannot believe how WRONG the news media -- and Pelozi's goons -- are. #The guys who put their lives on the line see and report an ENTIRELY different picture than that spread by the media.

Only someone with ZERO understanding of intelligence and ZERO understanding of military operations would assume that Bin Laden could be killed or captured as a result of spending more money ANYWHERE.

The fact is that killing Bin Laden is a "nice to have", but it has NO importance to winning the war against the terrorists. #We are winning that war by NOT shooting people, by building up communities, and by working WITH the Iraqis. #

That marginalizes the terrorists and costs them more dearly than thousands of bullets and many millions of dollars. #In a nutshell, FREEDOM is what the terrorists are afraid of -- and what they are fighting against.

Unlike most "experts", I have spent literally YEARS in the Middle East. #I have worked with every level of person from the streets to the palaces in almost every country there. #I know and respect the people.

I have deep and trusting friendships with many Arabs -- both Muslim and Christian. #Islam is NOT an enemy. #Terrorists are the enemy. #That they hide behind a PERVERTED "version" of a peaceful religion makes them all the more despicable.
Larry ...

Thoes of us who served in other #wars #understand the issue .......

YOU BACK YOUR MILITARY MAN / WOMAN ......

NOT THE WIMPS RUNNING THINGS .....

OR THOES WHO SEND THEM TO WAR .....

Bruce

US ARMY 1968 - 1970

USA ARMOR CENTER Ft. Knox 1968

[W9WHE]

WK5X writes:

"It's typical of the left, once they realize they've lost the argument, to begin calling names".

EXACTLY.

[ke5kzc]

i have hundreds of qsl cards,spanning since the late 1960,s when i was just as dx.r,i like and i still enjoy seeing them and getting them in the mail ive found email reports to really be lacking in personal feelings.if they even reply, i understand he cost of cards and mailing them,but its part of this wonderful hobby,just as the cost of gear has risin over time,sure there paper' whats not paper' even nowdays'theres no real cut and dried answer, a few hundred qsl cards stacked again.office,medical,newsprint,bills,tissue,and just daily paper use,then theres,the post office junk mail,imagine all the waste there.all that printed junk mail that everbody tosses away with out being read,no i dont feel qsl cards are a big issue stacked again the rest but iam sure theres those out there that will argue the fact,of paper usage of qsl,s ''no ill keep qsl,ing' and ill save waste in other avenues,maybe in butt paper.hee'

[WK5X]

To N2MMM:

Here's the bottom line: If you don't want to QSL, that's your business. Do whatever you feel like you need to to "save the planet"; But if your neighbor wants to send out 100 QSLs a day, that's his business. You have no right to interfere with him. It's all about freedom. Don't try to infringe upon your neighbor's freedom to "kill" as many trees as he wishes.

But I know that's not good enough for you on the left. You aren't happy until every single person is compelled by law or by force to accept your edicts.

Do something useful, dude; Go learn some Morse code. Then you'll be a REAL ham.

[N2MMM]

Quote[/b] (WK5X @ July 28 2007,06:07)]To N2MMM:

Here's the bottom line: If you don't want to QSL, that's your business. Do whatever you feel like you need to to "save the planet"; But if your neighbor wants to send out 100 QSLs a day, that's his business. You have no right to interfere with him. It's all about freedom. Don't try to infringe upon your neighbor's freedom to "kill" as many trees as he wishes.

But I know that's not good enough for you on the left. You aren't happy until every single person is compelled by law or by force to accept your edicts.

Do something useful, dude; Go learn some Morse code. Then you'll be a REAL ham.
Kiss my @$$, LOSER attitudes like yours are why the Digital crowd wants to take over OUR CW subbands.. #I never said I was anti QSL. Those bozos who think a few QSL cards harm the environment can recycle some newspapers if it makes them feel better. If someone needs my QSL of a contact #for whatever reason, I will provide one (hard copy).

[W9WHE]

The problem with liberals is that THEY want to tell YOU how to live your life.
HOW DARE you use QSL cards when liberals #have an imaginary enviornmental "chrissis" on THEIR hands! While THEY fly around the globe in PRIVATE jets destroying the enviornment with a HUGE CARBON FOOTPRINT, EVERYBODY ELSE must stop driving SUVs.

Then, when it becomes obvious that they have lost the debate, they start calling YOU names. Typical.

[N2MMM]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ July 30 2007,07:39)]The problem with liberals is that THEY want to tell YOU how to live your life.
HOW DARE you use QSL cards when liberals #have an imaginary enviornmental "chrissis" on THEIR hands! While THEY fly around the globe in PRIVATE jets destroying the enviornment with a HUGE CARBON FOOTPRINT, EVERYBODY ELSE must stop driving SUVs.

Then, when it becomes obvious that they have lost the debate, they start calling YOU names. Typical.
The problem with conservatives is tat they have nearly succeeded in turning America into a corporate police state as bad as the former Soviet Union and they WILL succeed unless Bush and his cabal is disgraced and thrown out of office THIS YEAR. Jan 20, 2009 is FAR TOO LATE.

[WA5BEN]

Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ July 30 2007,08:36)]Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ July 30 2007,07:39)]The problem with liberals is that THEY want to tell YOU how to live your life.
HOW DARE you use QSL cards when liberals have an imaginary enviornmental "chrissis" on THEIR hands! While THEY fly around the globe in PRIVATE jets destroying the enviornment with a HUGE CARBON FOOTPRINT, EVERYBODY ELSE must stop driving SUVs.

Then, when it becomes obvious that they have lost the debate, they start calling YOU names. Typical.
The problem with conservatives is tat they have nearly succeeded in turning America into a corporate police state as bad as the former Soviet Union and they WILL succeed unless Bush and his cabal is disgraced and thrown out of office THIS YEAR. Jan 20, 2009 is FAR TOO LATE.
Never to try to get a "liberal" to see facts. If it hasn't been set up in a form that can be quoted from a "liberal" source, they cannot accept it.

I have several "formerly liberal" friends. They became much more conservative when they actually had to WORK for a living -- and saw what was being done with their hard-earned money by the "spend now, tax later" idiots.

Personally, I dislike the both far right AND the far left. Neither has the ability to THINK. I like people who can see the good ideas without being blinded by from which side of the aisle they originated. The BEST laws are the ones upon which REASONING men and women can AGREE.

The problem now is that the Democratic Party has made it virtually impossible for anyone who is NOT a raving socialist to even have a chance to get on the ballot. That makes reasoned discussion all but impossible, and it is destroying this country.

The President is following a REASONED course of action. That course of action is STRONGLY supported by the troops who are actually in Iraq and Afghanistan -- and by all U.S. forces. The Democratic "withdrawal" is STRONGLY OPPOSED by just about every man and woman in uniform.

Those are the UNBIASED FACTS.

[N2MMM]

Quote[/b] (WA5BEN @ July 30 2007,16:14)]Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ July 30 2007,08:36)]Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ July 30 2007,07:39)]The problem with liberals is that THEY want to tell YOU how to live your life.
HOW DARE you use QSL cards when liberals #have an imaginary enviornmental "chrissis" on THEIR hands! While THEY fly around the globe in PRIVATE jets destroying the enviornment with a HUGE CARBON FOOTPRINT, EVERYBODY ELSE must stop driving SUVs.

Then, when it becomes obvious that they have lost the debate, they start calling YOU names. Typical.
The problem with conservatives is tat they have nearly succeeded in turning America into a corporate police state as bad as the former Soviet Union and they WILL succeed unless Bush and his cabal is disgraced and thrown out of office THIS YEAR. Jan 20, 2009 is FAR TOO LATE.
Never to try to get a "liberal" to see facts. #If it hasn't been set up in a form that can be quoted from a "liberal" source, they cannot accept it.

I have several "formerly liberal" friends. #They became much more conservative when they actually had to WORK for a living -- and saw what was being done with their hard-earned money by the "spend now, tax later" idiots.

Personally, I dislike the both far right AND the far left. #Neither has the ability to THINK. #I like people who can see the good ideas without being blinded by from which side of the aisle they originated. #The BEST laws are the ones upon which REASONING men and women can AGREE.

The problem now is that the Democratic Party has made it virtually impossible for anyone who is NOT a raving socialist to even have a chance to get on the ballot. #That makes reasoned discussion all but impossible, and it is destroying this country.

The President is following a REASONED course of action. #That course of action is STRONGLY supported by the troops who are actually in Iraq and Afghanistan -- and by all U.S. forces. #The Democratic "withdrawal" is STRONGLY OPPOSED by just about every man and woman in uniform.

Those are the UNBIASED FACTS.
You guys are going down. America's best days are in the past thanks to you and your state of denial won't change the fact that the next couple of election cycles will be rePUKElican disasters. The American People know you idiots wrecked the country, probably for good.

[N2MMM]

Bush LIED to start the war in Iraq. You follow a STINKING LIAR.

[WA5BEN]

Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ July 30 2007,20:07)]Bush LIED to start the war in Iraq. You follow a STINKING LIAR.
Such a grown up response.... How utterly and completely LIBERAL !

I prefer to deal with those who can THINK and offer reasoned responses on BOTH sides of an issue.

I would strongly suggest that you go talk to the service men and women who have been to Iraq, so that you can actually discuss FACTS.

The only lies that were told have been told by the "which way is the wind blowing" "care nothing about anything unless it gets me elected" POLITICIANS in the Democratic Party. Their leadership saw the EXACT SAME intelligence that the President saw BEFORE the invasion was launched, and they voted to go in. The Intelligence was sparse, but it was damning. Coupled with Sadaam's past use of WMD, indications that he still had them (since verified by an Iraqi general), and ZERO evidence that he had disposed of them, the ONLY rational decision was to take him out.

If the Clinton "administration" had not so effectively dismantled the Intelligence community that it was BLIND and DEAF, we just MIGHT have avoided 9/11. If the Intelligence community actually had ASSETS on the ground, the intelligence on Sadaam's WMD (and their actual locations) would have been much better.

The Intelligence community will need YEARS to reach the point where it was before that blithering idiot Clinton decided that "technology" could replace HUMAN EYES AND EARS. That is the singularly most STUPID act of any president since Jimmy Carter's disastrous "windfall profits tax" effectively DESTROYED the U.S. oil industry.

Clinton destroyed the Intelligence community, the best medical care system in the world, and the dignity of the office of President. That is just a "wonderful" legacy....

What I wouldn't give for another Harry Truman ! (But, today, the Democratic Party would never nominate him....)

[N2MMM]

Look you fascist IDIOTS, I DON't give a damn if you pay $200 a week to fuel your SUV, I'm, just sick of our crappy economy and seeing all of the good jobs shipped off to COMMUNIST CHINA. Of course if the Republicans have their way, Amateur Radio will be sacrificed to BPL so some stockholders can get richer. The American People are getting SICK AND TIRED of your overbearing BS and I sure don't care what you do any more than I care what some woman does with her fetus. but don't talk about freedom and liberty to me #when your boys Bush and Cheney and their lap dog #Alberto Gonzales is doing their damnedest to destroy our Constitution. #


Liberals,
The ONLY TRUE PATRIOTS.

[N2MMM]

Pfffttt...

[K0HWY]

Republican! Democrat! Right winger! Left winger! Neocon! Liberal! Liar! Moron! Jerk! Candy arse! Warmonger!


Oh yeah, by the way, I'm not going to stop sending/receiving QSL cards. Anything that can bring about this kind of quality entertainment must be preserved.

[WA5BEN]

Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ July 31 2007,20:40)]Look you fascist IDIOTS, I DON't give a damn if you pay $200 a week to fuel your SUV, I'm, just sick of our crappy economy and seeing all of the good jobs shipped off to COMMUNIST CHINA. Of course if the Republicans have their way, Amateur Radio will be sacrificed to BPL so some stockholders can get richer. The American People are getting SICK AND TIRED of your overbearing BS and I sure don't care what you do any more than I care what some woman does with her fetus. but don't talk about freedom and liberty to me when your boys Bush and Cheney and their lap dog Alberto Gonzales is doing their damnedest to destroy our Constitution.


Liberals,
The ONLY TRUE PATRIOTS.
Of course, the fact that Clinton and Gore received MILLIONS in illegal campaign contributions from China must really upset you.... and the fact that they put in place the mechanisms to allow China greater access to U.S. markets.... and the fact that companies controlled by Multi-Millionaire Liberal Democrats were first to move production to China...

I am sure that you will demand that they be tried and sentenced !

[N2MMM]

Quote[/b] (WA5BEN @ Aug. 01 2007,12:49)]Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ July 31 2007,20:40)]Look you fascist IDIOTS, I DON't give a damn if you pay $200 a week to fuel your SUV, I'm, just sick of our crappy economy and seeing all of the good jobs shipped off to COMMUNIST CHINA. Of course if the Republicans have their way, Amateur Radio will be sacrificed to BPL so some stockholders can get richer. The American People are getting SICK AND TIRED of your overbearing BS and I sure don't care what you do any more than I care what some woman does with her fetus. but don't talk about freedom and liberty to me #when your boys Bush and Cheney and their lap dog #Alberto Gonzales is doing their damnedest to destroy our Constitution. #


Liberals,
The ONLY TRUE PATRIOTS.
Of course, the fact that Clinton and Gore received MILLIONS in illegal campaign contributions from China must really upset you.... #and the fact that they put in place the mechanisms to allow China greater access to U.S. markets.... and the fact that companies controlled by Multi-Millionaire Liberal Democrats were first to move production to China...

I am sure that you will demand that they be tried and sentenced !
At least Bill Clinton turned Daddy's tax cut fueled deficits into surpluses and we were begining to see interest payments on those debts go down. If Gore hadn't had the election stolen from him by some racist right wing Florida cops, we'd be able to have REAL tax cuts based on pay as you go government and the bondholders wouldn't be getting all of those tax dollars. Do you know who the largest holder of "T-Bills is? -- COMMUNIST CHINA-- and you can't blame that on Clinton, Just those IDIOTIC tax cuts that sold America out to the rich and COMMUNIST China. Meanwhile, the foreclosure rate is getting ready to explode and MILITARY PERSONNEL make up one of the biggest categories of people who are in danger of loan default. Unfortunately, they have limited access to civilian media so they will probably believe that it's Cilnton's fault.

[WA5BEN]

Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ Aug. 01 2007,20:33)]Quote[/b] (WA5BEN @ Aug. 01 2007,12:49)]Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ July 31 2007,20:40)]Look you fascist IDIOTS, I DON't give a damn if you pay $200 a week to fuel your SUV, I'm, just sick of our crappy economy and seeing all of the good jobs shipped off to COMMUNIST CHINA. Of course if the Republicans have their way, Amateur Radio will be sacrificed to BPL so some stockholders can get richer. The American People are getting SICK AND TIRED of your overbearing BS and I sure don't care what you do any more than I care what some woman does with her fetus. but don't talk about freedom and liberty to me when your boys Bush and Cheney and their lap dog Alberto Gonzales is doing their damnedest to destroy our Constitution.


Liberals,
The ONLY TRUE PATRIOTS.
Of course, the fact that Clinton and Gore received MILLIONS in illegal campaign contributions from China must really upset you.... and the fact that they put in place the mechanisms to allow China greater access to U.S. markets.... and the fact that companies controlled by Multi-Millionaire Liberal Democrats were first to move production to China...

I am sure that you will demand that they be tried and sentenced !
At least Bill Clinton turned Daddy's tax cut fueled deficits into surpluses and we were begining to see interest payments on those debts go down. If Gore hadn't had the election stolen from him by some racist right wing Florida cops, we'd be able to have REAL tax cuts based on pay as you go government and the bondholders wouldn't be getting all of those tax dollars. Do you know who the largest holder of "T-Bills is? -- COMMUNIST CHINA-- and you can't blame that on Clinton, Just those IDIOTIC tax cuts that sold America out to the rich and COMMUNIST China. Meanwhile, the foreclosure rate is getting ready to explode and MILITARY PERSONNEL make up one of the biggest categories of people who are in danger of loan default. Unfortunately, they have limited access to civilian media so they will probably believe that it's Cilnton's fault.
Please come back when we can have an intelligent conversation that pertains to facts instead of rhetoric that has been proven false to everyone except the farthest fringe of the left.

[WK5X]

To N2MMM: Perhaps you'd prefer to have a callsign such as CM2MM; That country would better fit your world view; Sicko.

[N2MMM]

Quote[/b] (WK5X @ Aug. 02 2007,19:47)]To N2MMM: Perhaps you'd prefer to have a callsign such as CM2MM; That country would better fit your world view; Sicko.
Why don't you Bush backers get a time machine and go back to Nazi Germany. Iraq is a LOST CAUSE, 70% of the People in this republic cannot be wrong and if those who wish to deny reality cannot read the part of the Constitution where it talks about CIVILIAN CONTROL of the military, they should go back to school and learn to read BEFORE next Election Day.

[WK5X]

Oh. So now I can't read?

[WA5BEN]

Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ Aug. 02 2007,20:14)]Quote[/b] (WK5X @ Aug. 02 2007,19:47)]To N2MMM: Perhaps you'd prefer to have a callsign such as CM2MM; That country would better fit your world view; Sicko.
Why don't you Bush backers get a time machine and go back to Nazi Germany. Iraq is a LOST CAUSE, 70% of the People in this republic cannot be wrong and if those who wish to deny reality cannot read the part of the Constitution where it talks about CIVILIAN CONTROL of the military, they should go back to school and learn to read BEFORE next Election Day.
If the SUPPOSED 70% of the people in this republic actually had access to the TRUTH, as opposed to the biased and inaccurate media "story", the results of even the highly biased "scientific poll" (which is ANYTHING but scientific) would be radically different. The carefully controlled media "stories" are created in New York. Any reporter who does not report a story that is consistent with the "New York View" (i.e., highly liberal viewpoint) will not see airtime, and will be replaced.

I saw this FIRST-HAND in El Salvador, after returning from Jamaica after the MULTI-NATIONAL Granada invasion with which the U.S. only ASSISTED, after returning from Morocco after the bombing of Tripoli, and in Iraq. I know from FIRST-HAND knowledge and direct discussions with some really dedicated journalists from ABC, NBC, and CBS that the story that is aired many times bears ZERO resemblance to the story that the reporter actually filed.

Reporters were told that they were "too close to the story to have the facts", and that New York had the "true facts" -- which is about the biggest pack of nonsense that I have ever heard expressed by a supposedly intelligent person. EVERY reporter told me that they stayed ONLY because their colleagues had convinced them that they could get "parcels of truth" through the effective censorship that was imposed -- not by government -- but by their liberal editors.

The liberal conspiracy is destroying this country, and the "sheep" who blindly follow the liberal "mantra" are the principal instrument of destruction. Only when the "sheep" are willing to see that there are as many -- or MORE -- liberal "devils" as there are conservative "devils" will some of the VALID points that can be made for some liberal ideas actually be considered by those of us who simply want the TRUTH -- without either liberal or conservative biases.

And, FYI, the military IS under 100% civilian control. If you do not understand that, it is not we who need to learn to read and interpret.

[N2MMM]

Quote[/b] (WA5BEN @ Aug. 03 2007,18:11)]Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ Aug. 02 2007,20:14)]Quote[/b] (WK5X @ Aug. 02 2007,19:47)]To N2MMM: Perhaps you'd prefer to have a callsign such as CM2MM; That country would better fit your world view; Sicko.
Why don't you Bush backers get a time machine and go back to Nazi Germany. Iraq is a LOST CAUSE, 70% of the People in this republic cannot be wrong and if those who wish to deny reality cannot read the part of the Constitution where it talks about CIVILIAN CONTROL of the military, they should go back to school and learn to read BEFORE next Election Day.
If the SUPPOSED 70% of the people in this republic actually had access to the TRUTH, as opposed to the biased and inaccurate media "story", the results of even the highly biased "scientific poll" (which is ANYTHING but scientific) would be radically different. #The carefully controlled media "stories" are created in New York. #Any reporter who does not report a story that is consistent with the "New York View" (i.e., highly liberal viewpoint) will not see airtime, and will be replaced.

I saw this FIRST-HAND in El Salvador, after returning from #Jamaica after the MULTI-NATIONAL Granada invasion with which the U.S. only ASSISTED, after returning from Morocco after the bombing of Tripoli, and in Iraq. #I know from FIRST-HAND knowledge and direct discussions with some really dedicated journalists from ABC, NBC, and CBS that the story that is aired many times bears ZERO resemblance to the story that the reporter actually filed.

Reporters were told that they were "too close to the story to have the facts", and that New York had the "true facts" -- which is about the biggest pack of nonsense that I have ever heard expressed by a supposedly intelligent person. #EVERY reporter told me that they stayed ONLY because their colleagues had convinced them that they could get "parcels of truth" through the effective censorship that was imposed -- not by government -- but by their liberal editors.

The liberal conspiracy is destroying this country, and the "sheep" who blindly follow the liberal "mantra" are the principal instrument of destruction. #Only when the "sheep" are willing to see that there are as many -- or MORE -- liberal "devils" as there are conservative "devils" will some of the VALID points that can be made for some liberal ideas actually be considered by those of us who simply want the TRUTH -- without either liberal or conservative biases.

And, FYI, the military IS under 100% civilian control. #If you do not understand that, it is not we who need to learn to read and interpret.
If the military cannot trust the American People, then WHO DO THEY SERVE? The RNC??? I HOPE TO GOD that the military don't all believe as you do* because if they do then we are not only well past our peak as an economic power but we are headed toward fascism. The next hundred years or so are going to be a TERRIBLE time to be an American. #

*Actually, they don't, Look at Gen. Wesley Clark, USA, Ret.

[WA5BEN]

Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ Aug. 03 2007,21:13)]Quote[/b] (WA5BEN @ Aug. 03 2007,18:11)]Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ Aug. 02 2007,20:14)]Quote[/b] (WK5X @ Aug. 02 2007,19:47)]To N2MMM: Perhaps you'd prefer to have a callsign such as CM2MM; That country would better fit your world view; Sicko.
Why don't you Bush backers get a time machine and go back to Nazi Germany. Iraq is a LOST CAUSE, 70% of the People in this republic cannot be wrong and if those who wish to deny reality cannot read the part of the Constitution where it talks about CIVILIAN CONTROL of the military, they should go back to school and learn to read BEFORE next Election Day.
If the SUPPOSED 70% of the people in this republic actually had access to the TRUTH, as opposed to the biased and inaccurate media "story", the results of even the highly biased "scientific poll" (which is ANYTHING but scientific) would be radically different. The carefully controlled media "stories" are created in New York. Any reporter who does not report a story that is consistent with the "New York View" (i.e., highly liberal viewpoint) will not see airtime, and will be replaced.

I saw this FIRST-HAND in El Salvador, after returning from Jamaica after the MULTI-NATIONAL Granada invasion with which the U.S. only ASSISTED, after returning from Morocco after the bombing of Tripoli, and in Iraq. I know from FIRST-HAND knowledge and direct discussions with some really dedicated journalists from ABC, NBC, and CBS that the story that is aired many times bears ZERO resemblance to the story that the reporter actually filed.

Reporters were told that they were "too close to the story to have the facts", and that New York had the "true facts" -- which is about the biggest pack of nonsense that I have ever heard expressed by a supposedly intelligent person. EVERY reporter told me that they stayed ONLY because their colleagues had convinced them that they could get "parcels of truth" through the effective censorship that was imposed -- not by government -- but by their liberal editors.

The liberal conspiracy is destroying this country, and the "sheep" who blindly follow the liberal "mantra" are the principal instrument of destruction. Only when the "sheep" are willing to see that there are as many -- or MORE -- liberal "devils" as there are conservative "devils" will some of the VALID points that can be made for some liberal ideas actually be considered by those of us who simply want the TRUTH -- without either liberal or conservative biases.

And, FYI, the military IS under 100% civilian control. If you do not understand that, it is not we who need to learn to read and interpret.
If the military cannot trust the American People, then WHO DO THEY SERVE? The RNC??? I HOPE TO GOD that the military don't all believe as you do* because if they do then we are not only well past our peak as an economic power but we are headed toward fascism. The next hundred years or so are going to be a TERRIBLE time to be an American.

*Actually, they don't, Look at Gen. Wesley Clark, USA, Ret.
The military trust the American people, for whom they volunteered to risk their lives. They do not trust the liberal media who CONSTANTLY and DELIBERATELY mis-report and mis-represent anything that is done by anyone who is not a liberal Democrat.

The honourable profession of Journalism is virtually DEAD in the U.S., and in much of the world. The far-left extreme of the liberal faction of the Democratic Party orchestrated a take-over of the Journalism departments, and their hand-picked "professors" abandoned the age-old tradition of "report the facts, and let the people decide" in favor of the currently taught "it is your job to tell the people what they should think".

Universities are no longer places for free thought and reasoning. Now the "teaching" is presentation of liberal dogma. On a campus of supposed "education", there is no longer a climate that allows open discussion with free expression of ALL views. Any professor who challenges the obvious liberal lies is called names, has their career ruined, and is forced to resign. Any student who insists upon thinking and expressing an opinion not in keeping with the liberal "mantra" is given failing grades.

That effective THOUGHT CONTROL of the minds of the youth is the most grave danger to this country. THAT is the root of today's Fascism, and it is being practiced by the liberals. THAT is what was done by Hitler, by Mussolini, by Castro, by Chavez, by Kohmeni, and by every other dictator who has lived. Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, and every true free thinker who ever lived must be rolling in their graves !

Just FYI: Wesley Clark was FIRED as NATO commander after his latest act of stupidity, when he issued an order that was MINDLESS and DANGEROUS. The subordinate general who REFUSED the order stated quite bluntly "Sir, I will not assist you to start World War III !". Clark's removal was then demanded by just about every nation in NATO. To the great relief of his fellow general officers, Clark's career was terminated.

By all accounts (first person to me by several 2 and 3 stars, and one 4 star -- as well as public record accounts), Clark was a TERRIBLE commander, who should never have risen to the rank of a 4 star. His numerous instances of poor judgment and horrible tactics should have ended his career long before he got his first star.

If you dislike this country so much, why are you still here ? The U.S. continues to be the country to which people come for OPPORTUNITY. People continue to arrive with nothing, and make their own opportunities. Many people who were born here continue to make their own opportunities. We believe the OPPORTUNITIES are unlimited -- but, unlike the liberal "the country owes me a living", we believe that we are owed NOTHING -- other than an OPPORTUNITY.

[N2MMM]

Quote[/b] (WA5BEN @ Aug. 04 2007,09:54)]Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ Aug. 03 2007,21:13)]Quote[/b] (WA5BEN @ Aug. 03 2007,18:11)]Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ Aug. 02 2007,20:14)]Quote[/b] (WK5X @ Aug. 02 2007,19:47)]To N2MMM: Perhaps you'd prefer to have a callsign such as CM2MM; That country would better fit your world view; Sicko.
Why don't you Bush backers get a time machine and go back to Nazi Germany. Iraq is a LOST CAUSE, 70% of the People in this republic cannot be wrong and if those who wish to deny reality cannot read the part of the Constitution where it talks about CIVILIAN CONTROL of the military, they should go back to school and learn to read BEFORE next Election Day.
If the SUPPOSED 70% of the people in this republic actually had access to the TRUTH, as opposed to the biased and inaccurate media "story", the results of even the highly biased "scientific poll" (which is ANYTHING but scientific) would be radically different. #The carefully controlled media "stories" are created in New York. #Any reporter who does not report a story that is consistent with the "New York View" (i.e., highly liberal viewpoint) will not see airtime, and will be replaced.

I saw this FIRST-HAND in El Salvador, after returning from #Jamaica after the MULTI-NATIONAL Granada invasion with which the U.S. only ASSISTED, after returning from Morocco after the bombing of Tripoli, and in Iraq. #I know from FIRST-HAND knowledge and direct discussions with some really dedicated journalists from ABC, NBC, and CBS that the story that is aired many times bears ZERO resemblance to the story that the reporter actually filed.

Reporters were told that they were "too close to the story to have the facts", and that New York had the "true facts" -- which is about the biggest pack of nonsense that I have ever heard expressed by a supposedly intelligent person. #EVERY reporter told me that they stayed ONLY because their colleagues had convinced them that they could get "parcels of truth" through the effective censorship that was imposed -- not by government -- but by their liberal editors.

The liberal conspiracy is destroying this country, and the "sheep" who blindly follow the liberal "mantra" are the principal instrument of destruction. #Only when the "sheep" are willing to see that there are as many -- or MORE -- liberal "devils" as there are conservative "devils" will some of the VALID points that can be made for some liberal ideas actually be considered by those of us who simply want the TRUTH -- without either liberal or conservative biases.

And, FYI, the military IS under 100% civilian control. #If you do not understand that, it is not we who need to learn to read and interpret.
If the military cannot trust the American People, then WHO DO THEY SERVE? The RNC??? I HOPE TO GOD that the military don't all believe as you do* because if they do then we are not only well past our peak as an economic power but we are headed toward fascism. The next hundred years or so are going to be a TERRIBLE time to be an American. #

*Actually, they don't, Look at Gen. Wesley Clark, USA, Ret.
The military trust the American people, for whom they volunteered to risk their lives. #They do not trust the liberal media who CONSTANTLY and DELIBERATELY mis-report and mis-represent anything that is done by anyone who is not a liberal Democrat.

The honourable profession of Journalism is virtually DEAD in the U.S., and in much of the world. #The far-left extreme of the liberal faction of the Democratic Party orchestrated a take-over of the Journalism departments, and their hand-picked "professors" abandoned the age-old tradition of "report the facts, and let the people decide" in favor of the currently taught "it is your job to tell the people what they should think".

Universities are no longer places for free thought and reasoning. #Now the "teaching" is presentation of liberal dogma. #On a campus of supposed "education", there is no longer a climate that allows open discussion with free expression of ALL views. #Any professor who challenges the obvious liberal lies is called names, has their career ruined, and is forced to resign. #Any student who insists upon thinking and expressing an opinion not in keeping with the liberal "mantra" is given failing grades.

That effective THOUGHT CONTROL of the minds of the youth is the most grave danger to this country. #THAT is the root of today's Fascism, and it is being practiced by the liberals. #THAT is what was done by Hitler, by Mussolini, by Castro, by Chavez, by Kohmeni, and by every other dictator who has lived. #Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, and every true free thinker who ever lived must be rolling in their graves !

Just FYI: #Wesley Clark was FIRED as NATO commander after his latest act of stupidity, when he issued an order that was MINDLESS and DANGEROUS. #The subordinate general who REFUSED the order stated quite bluntly "Sir, I will not assist you to start World War III !". #Clark's removal was then demanded by just about every nation in NATO. #To the great relief of his fellow general officers, Clark's career was terminated. #

By all accounts (first person to me by several 2 and 3 stars, and one 4 star -- as well as public record accounts), Clark was a TERRIBLE commander, who should never have risen to the rank of a 4 star. #His numerous instances of poor judgment and horrible tactics should have ended his career long before he got his first star.

If you dislike this country so much, why are you still here ? #The U.S. continues to be the country to which people come for OPPORTUNITY. #People continue to arrive with nothing, and make their own opportunities. #Many people who were born here continue to make their own opportunities. #We believe the OPPORTUNITIES are unlimited -- but, unlike the liberal "the country owes me a living", we believe that we are owed NOTHING -- other than an OPPORTUNITY.
You just want a one party police state. I will never vote for ANY Republican for ANY office. It is time for more butter and less guns unless there's a Keynesian mechanism to properly fund the war to destroy Al Qaida. As for your whacked out conspiracy thories, maybe you need psychiatric help. This will be my last response on this forum.

[WA5BEN]

Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ Aug. 04 2007,21:16)]If you dislike this country so much, why are you still here ? Quote[/b] ]The U.S. continues to be the country to which people come for OPPORTUNITY. People continue to arrive with nothing, and make their own opportunities. Many people who were born here continue to make their own opportunities. We believe the OPPORTUNITIES are unlimited -- but, unlike the liberal "the country owes me a living", we believe that we are owed NOTHING -- other than an OPPORTUNITY.
You just want a one party police state. I will never vote for ANY Republican for ANY office. It is time for more butter and less guns unless there's a Keynesian mechanism to properly fund the war to destroy Al Qaida. As for your whacked out conspiracy thories, maybe you need psychiatric help. This will be my last response on this forum.
Obviously, when the facts cannot be refuted, a liberal has no ability to respond.

I have no "conspiracy theories". I have FIRST-HAND FACTUAL EVIDENCE of stories that were MADE UP by the media. Case in point:

The "riots" in Kingston, Jamaica and other Caribbean capitals 'in protest" of the invasion of Granada. They NEVER HAPPENED. The actual fact was that Americans were being treated like KINGS in those countries, because the people were THRILLED that the U.S. provided transport for THEIR soldiers to invade Granada to get rid of the lunatic dictator.

How do I know ? I was THERE in Kingston -- on the day, at the time, and in the EXACT place of the widely reported "riot". It supposedly happened AT MY HOTEL. What REALLY happened was that the waiter did not want to take a tip, every employee of the restaurant came by my table to say THANKS, the shoe-shine guy refused a tip -- and I had to beg him to let me pay for the shine, the taxi driver wanted to give me a ride FREE, and EVERY paper was PRAISING the U.S. for ASSISTING the Caribbean nations to rid themselves of a tyrant.

Imagine my surprise when I returned to the U.S. and watched the news ! I called two friends who were news directors of the NBC and CBS affiliates, told them how WRONG the stories actually were, and faxed them the front page stories from the Kingston newspapers for the day of invasion through 4 days after. They called their counterparts at other affiliates, and had a conference with New York.

That evening, there was NO COVERAGE of ANYTHING about Granada. It went from "lead story" to "no story" INSTANTLY. (Of course, the American people were NEVER told the TRUTH, because the networks and newspapers would have had to admit that the story was MADE UP.)

I would be more nearly concerned with obtaining psychiatric help for those whose responses are filled with lack of reasoning, hatred, and childish name calling.

[N2MMM]

You know, what I read in the newspapers at the time of the Grenada operation MATCHES your account to a T. What I read was that#Coard and Bishop were thugs and their bringing Cuba into the mix endangered the peace of the whole hemisphere. as for any US based opposition to Grenada, I would have to agree that some FAR LEFT yahoos bitched but they were in the fringe. Most Democrats supported Grenada and from what I hear now, the people there are grateful for what your fellow members of the military did in freeing them from Coard and the Cubans.

[N2MMM]

You may enjoy this comic book.

http://www.ep.tc/grenada/index.html

[WK5X]

Can't we all get along? Where's Rodney King when we need him?