Long Delay Echos

[g4tut]

Long Delay Echos

Long Delay Echos (LDE) have long been a source of fascination to Radio Amateurs.
Over the years there have been a number of reports of Radio Amateurs hearing their own transmission delayed by as much as 9 seconds.

Sverre Holm LA3ZA has created a valuable web resource on this subject with extensive references which can be seen at

Mystical delayed radio signals received in Oslo
http://heim.ifi.uio.no/~sverre/LDE/





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[KW0U]

Twenty years ago I collected what I could find on this topic and wrote a little article for a parascience publication. #I'll send a copy to anyone who wants one, although the web page G4TUT's article links to does a better job than my effort. #

Incidentally, the link which that article in turn connects to is fascinating--we were listening for Mars in the 1920s? #The ARRL is still holding trophies for two-way QSOs with Mars and Mercury, and as K1BV's awards list says, "something more than a log book entry will be required." #

Finally, for anyone who is generally interested in ionospheric conditions, there are a couple of good courses on space weather at: #http://www.meted.ucar.edu/

[KA5LQJ]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif HUH?

Given the Speed of Light, wouldn't a radio signal travel about 7 times around the Earth in one second? #Hearing a delay longer than that seems impossible. #Even on "backscatter" it wouldn't be that much of a delay.

Respectfully,
73,
Don/KA5-LQJ

[N7PLC]

ever heard of moon bounce?

[va7aax]

Quote[/b] (N7PLC @ July 09 2007,07:56)]ever heard of moon bounce?
but this happens even at HF which is supposed to be reflected back to the Earth by the ionosphere!! #

(please correct me i am wrong)

[N7PLC]

how about mars bounce?

[k0ru]

LDE, the first time I heard of this I thought some guy must be nuts... Considering the speed of radiowaves and such. #then it was my turn, I heard myself for the first time about 10 years ago, I thought man somebody is playing a bad joke or something, but they sent exactly what I sent (CW) at exactly the same speed with the same mistakes, now I know that their nothing to doing just that, but thier is something to be said about keying charteristics etc. about a CW op. #I believe that something was going on, exactly what I'm not sure but I've not been able to experience it again.

During a good band opening, its not uncommon to hear your echos (ms, or 1/10 of a sec) as your transmitting and at times they can be extremely strong... But this 3, 4, 5 even 9 sec delay is amazing. #It was like only 3 sec or 4 sec for me at the time it happened and of course I wasn't prepared for it when it occured. #I transmitted 2 or 3 more time with exactly the same echos occuring I just thought somebody was playing with me.

73 - K0RU - Rob

[va7aax]

our signals are going to be too weak to go to Mars and come back as there are 100w only! 10000 kW is a different story

[wa4gch]

Storys of long delayed returns goes back to the early days of radio.

Long John Nebble ( NYC TALK RADIO ) back in the early 60s did shows about people who had been kidnabbed and transported in flying saurcers and even covered this as part of some alen plot to inform it's plants here on earth ......

I have always wondered if maby its not some Plutoan Cber with a delay box ....... just fooling around ... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KC7UP]

I had LDE happen to me 50 years ago while working for the govt. in Alaska . We used Hf to work aircraft and I kept hearing an echo. I was beamed south and the signal was returning from the north.
Curt

[aa5te]

I read a theory somewhere that a satellite/probe that repeats/retransmits received signals and is placed near a planet harboring life by some extraterrestrial civilization would be a good way of announcing that "we're here" without causing too much panic.

[W5HTW]

I also experienced an LDE while working for the US government, in the mid 1960s. It was on CW.

It was only a portion of a regular one-minute long transmission we made, automatically, on a guard frequency. Our guard sent one minute of CW then one minute of monitoring. We monitored simultaneously four different HF frequencies, on speaker monitor, as we were often away from the operating console.

Following one of the one-minute transmissions, a few seconds after it stopped, part of that transmission was repeated back, but since I was not at the console I do not know on which receiver it was heard. At the time we were monitoring frequencies at 6, 10, 13, and 18 mhz. My guess would be the 13 mhz frequency, but it is only a guess.

The duration of the echo was only about 10-12 seconds, not a complete retransmission. It had no fade. It was on frequency, so was not shifted by any Doppler. It was our signal, same speed, same automatic keying characteristics, same everything. We had a tape of it for a long time, and I had a copy of the tape, but at some point, years ago, I lost it or erased it.

LDEs are real. It appears the most logical solution is some sort of ducting, the signal returning to earth in a moving path, which accounts for it being heard only briefly at the originating site.

Ed

[W9WHE]

LDEs are caused by global warming!
Al Gore, with his HUGE CARBON FOOT PRINT (58,000 pounds of PRIVATE JET fuel for EACH UN presentation) is the cause! We now have a consensus. The issue is no longer debateable.

W9WHE

[k4kio]

During the mid-fifties, I was a teenager with a new novice license. Being a teenager then, I was oblivious to the need to record specific data like times, dates, etc. Nevertheless, the impression of what I heard was so deep that I have never forgotten the event even if I can't cite the date/time.

In those days, using a Hallicrafters S-11 receiver, I listened frequently to CHU on 7.335 mHz AM to get the time. They had a very strong signal in middle Kentucky where I lived and there was no interfering broadcast station then as there seems to be now.

On several occasions, in the same general time period, I distinctly heard the CHU announcement of the time and identification info come through at a lower level and a couple seconds later, repeating the original announcement of that same time. It was several seconds later so that the entire announcement could be heard a second time.

It floored me and I could not figure out how it happened but it was real and not my imagination. It was so clear and it happened several times.

Only recently have I begun reading about LDE and am surprised that there still is no conclusive explanation for the phenomena. Hopefully, someday the mystery of this will be unraveled.

[ad5fd]

i'm bettin its long path...i remember even in cb days of 70s a friend had a ssb station on a beam and he was sayin that conds were so good u could hear ur own voice back.

[K8EUR]

I find it very coincidental that several of these reports happened in the 1950s. #My first (and only) LDE experience happened around 1958 while I was listening to a 10 meter AM QSO.

The W6 station had just finished a transmission with something like "....so back to you Sam. #W2XXX this is W6AAA, over." #In the silence that followed, his signal faded back up out of the noise and exactly repeated what I had just heard - with about a 9 second delay! #

Backscatter echos and around-the-world echos are easily recognizable by their echo timing and other characteristics. #What I heard in 1958 was a perfect replay - delayed about 9 seconds.

Was something else happening during that huge sunspot cycle? #Will we see it again if the next cycle lives up to predictions?

[W5HTW]

Quote[/b] (ad5fd @ July 09 2007,11:06)]i'm bettin its long path...i remember even in cb days of 70s a friend had a ssb station on a beam and he was sayin that conds were so good u could hear ur own voice back.
Ten four, thet thar is called "talk back." It means all them lil' swrs is getting bounced right back into thet thar ole radidio thar, don't even need no echo box.

[k4pq]

I think what's really happening is that there is another planet in another solar system that is exactly 500 light years away. Also, that planet is identical to earth in every way except that it is ahead of us in advancement by 500 years and 9 seconds.

So, we're not really hearing our own echoes, just our twin's original signal.

[kl7aj]

LDE's can be created in a plasma chamber with (proportionally) shorter delays than in the ionosphere. This is done by mode conversion....electromagnetic to ion-acoustic-electromagnetic propagation. In effect the ionosphere can act like a giant reverb spring. (Ion acoustic waves travel at about ten times the speed of sound at normal ionospheric heights....still a mere crawl compared to electromagnetic waves.

eric

[kl7aj]

Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ July 09 2007,13:47)]LDE's can be created in a plasma chamber with (proportionally) shorter delays than in the ionosphere. #This is done by mode conversion....electromagnetic to ion-acoustic-electromagnetic propagation. #In effect the ionosphere can act like a giant reverb spring. #(Ion acoustic waves travel at about ten times the speed of sound at normal ionospheric heights....still a mere crawl compared to electromagnetic waves.

eric
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waves_in_plasmasPlasma Modes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waves_in_plasmas)

Look here at all the possible plasma modes...many of which can account for long delayed echoes. No E.T.'s necessary at all.

eric

[n5vkn]

Thanks for the post. It happened to me in 1991. Called CQ on 10 meters and heard myself after each call! Thought I was loosing it! hi hi. At the time I didn't have internet so there wasn't a lot of lit handy on the subject. After all these years I now know it wasn't little green men from mars. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif 73's...n5vkn

[k0ru]

Did anyone even read the above article? #Or did you just ASSUME you knew what you were talking about? #Go read the article and read the reports in the References especially the report below...

http://www.df5ai.net/ArticlesDL/LEchoes%28E%29.pdf

73 - K0RU - Rob

[KV1M]

W9WHE, you might as well admit it.

YOU are responsible for global warming.
All that hot air coming out your mouth is raising the temperature of the atmosphere, and I bet it's why we have had such poor propagation for the last couple of years. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Seriously though, are you some kind of climate expert? Do you know any?

And what exactly does that have to do with LDE?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

73,

Todd

[k4pq]

A little known fact is that you can implement a flux capacitor in your amplifier such that you'll be able to hear your echo before you send a message.

Very helpful when you just don't know what to say.

[vk6zgo]

Quote[/b] (KA5LQJ @ July 09 2007,07:50)]http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif HUH?

Given the Speed of Light, wouldn't a radio signal travel about 7 times around the Earth in one second? #Hearing a delay longer than that seems impossible. #Even on "backscatter" it wouldn't be that much of a delay.

Respectfully,
73,
Don/KA5-LQJ
I don't see what the number of times it circles the earth has to do with it, apart from attenuation,obviously,which would depend on propagation conditions throughout the path, but surely if we accept 7 times, what's wrong with more?

Also, remember the path followed by a signal refracted by the ionosphere is going to be quite a bit longer than the direct distance around the globe,so it will take longer
for the trip.

73 VK6ZGO

[wa4gch]

Quote[/b] (k4pq @ July 09 2007,20:08)]A little known fact is that you can implement a flux capacitor in your amplifier such that you'll be able to hear your echo before you send a message.

Very helpful when you just don't know what to say.
In your Dulorian ham shack ......

[w8ixy]

An LDE happened to me once, back around 1963, at a near sunspot minimum. About 3AM Eastern Time, I don't remember what season, I was trying to hear ANYTHING on 40 meter CW. The band was dead, and the noise level was very low. I had called several CQ's, and heard the last several letters of my call coming back about 3 to 4 seconds after I sent them. I tried a few "dits", and they came back just as I sent them. This went on for about 5 minutes. The returning echoes sounded like they had come a long way, all fluttery, and just above the noise level, but on the same exact frequency, and matching my fist exactly. I'll never forget what they sounded like.

73
Ted, K8VPL

[k4kio]

Rob, thanks for the reference on the article. I had not seen it and it is illuminating.

Some of the postings here show that some don't take the reports very seriously or don't feel the phenomena, even if real, is particularly noteworthy. Maybe that is what UFO observers feel about reaction to their reports.

I've never seen a UFO but I did hear echoes from CHU in the mid-50's. If someone was recording CHU and then quickly playing it back on the same frequency from another transmitter, they had the process down pretty slick. However, I think it was authentic, though unexplainable.

73, Leo, k4kio

[NE4ME]

I too have had what I would call an SDE (short delay echo) and it was back in the mid 1990's and it was on 20 meters if I recall. It too was on CW, but my echo was probably 100 ms after my transmission. I will put it this way..I could hear my single "dits" come back too me but my "dahs" were too long to hear the beginning of but I could hear their end. It was with a Ten-Tec Scout and their lightning fast qsk, 50W and a wire antenna back when I was running about 35 WPM. It only happened to me one time in 15 years on the air so far and I have been unable to duplicate it. The return signal was very weak, but was able to be copied. I thought someone was messing w/ me at 1st but with the fast qsk I could hear my own dits coming back and then the last part of the dahs and there is no way that someone could duplicate my transmission that quickly and exact. It was an interesting experience. I have never experienced the LDE as spoken of here, but can verify an SDE...NE4ME

[ka0sog]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ July 09 2007,08:29)]LDEs are caused by global warming!
Al Gore, with his HUGE CARBON FOOT PRINT (58,000 pounds of PRIVATE JET fuel for EACH UN presentation) is the cause! We now have a consensus. The issue is no longer debateable.

W9WHE
I am sorry. I don't mean to be rude but you chaps have this global warming thing all wrong.

There are two known types of Global warming and according to recent study they both seem to emminate from a geographical region in the Maryland/Virginia Potomac River Basin.

The first is known as generalis borus thermogaseous enthalpic heating and seems to occur in the general atmospheric canopy above the previously named area. It is most prominent when Congress is in session.

The second is more difficult to pin down for although it can be found intermixed with samples of the first kind above; it can also be seen in and around the Massachusettes area. This type is identified as tedus kennedius probiscus and is accompanied by a warm red glow sometimes known as the Rudolph syndrome. However, this second type is believed to be a form of radiant heating powered by renewable grain alcohol fuel and mysteriously tends to draw little criticism considering the societal damage it creates.

This is not to be confused with a similar phenomenom known as radiantalis facilus bushem which is a result of mispeaking in public.

[k8jd]

I HAVE HEARD PRE-ECHOES ON THE AIR. Sometimes when I listen to wwv I can faintly hear the time announcement just before it should happen and it seems to be doppler shifted to sound like a female voice. Is this an echo from a passing UFO?

[n2nh]

Quote[/b] (k8jd @ July 10 2007,13:54)]I HAVE HEARD PRE-ECHOES ON THE AIR. Sometimes when I listen to wwv I can faintly hear the time announcement just before it should happen and it seems to be doppler shifted to sound like a female voice. Is this an echo from a passing UFO?
That would be WWVH in Hawaii. The NIST station there uses a female announcer to differentiate it from WWV.

WWVH aloha. (http://tf.nist.gov/stations/wwvh.htm)

[W9WHE]

KV1M writes:

"Seriously though, are you some kind of climate expert?"


I'm every bit as much a "climate expert" as all FOUR AL GORES, including:

1) Earth Tone AL
2) Alpha Male AL
3) Internet Creater AL; and
4) Enviornmental AL.



"Do you know any?"

Sure do.
And they think Al Gore is full of.......(BEEP).



W9WHE

[kl7aj]

Quote[/b] (n2nh @ July 10 2007,11:03)]Quote[/b] (k8jd @ July 10 2007,13:54)]I HAVE HEARD PRE-ECHOES ON THE AIR. Sometimes when I listen to wwv I can faintly hear the time announcement just before it should happen and it seems to be doppler shifted to sound like a female voice. Is this #an echo from a passing UFO?
That would be WWVH in Hawaii. #The NIST station there uses a female announcer to differentiate it from WWV.

WWVH aloha. (http://tf.nist.gov/stations/wwvh.htm)
WWV (http://www.lownoiserecords.com/wwv_the_tick.html)

[n2nh]

Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ July 10 2007,15:36)]Quote[/b] (n2nh @ July 10 2007,11:03)]Quote[/b] (k8jd @ July 10 2007,13:54)]I HAVE HEARD PRE-ECHOES ON THE AIR. Sometimes when I listen to wwv I can faintly hear the time announcement just before it should happen and it seems to be doppler shifted to sound like a female voice. Is this an echo from a passing UFO?
That would be WWVH in Hawaii. The NIST station there uses a female announcer to differentiate it from WWV.

WWVH aloha. (http://tf.nist.gov/stations/wwvh.htm)
WWV (http://www.lownoiserecords.com/wwv_the_tick.html)
Is nothing sacred??!? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[KV1M]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ July 10 2007,15:24)]KV1M writes:

"Seriously though, are you some kind of climate expert?"

I'm every bit as much a "climate expert" as all FOUR AL GORES, including:
1) Earth Tone AL
2) Alpha Male AL
3) Internet Creater (sic) AL; and
4) Enviornmental (sic) AL.

"Do you know any?"

Sure do.
And they think Al Gore is full of.......(BEEP).

W9WHE
Nope.

You're just another Gore basher.

Trotting out that tired old inventing the internet thing again I see. You guys NEVER tire of that one. Never mind that it's been debunked as a Rove lie for over 6 years now. Since before the 200 election even.
Not that you would have heard about that on Fox News though.

Mr. Gore DOES know climatologists, and he is speaking for them. Thousands of them as a matter of fact.
Internationally.

The science is good, the data is sound and the community accepts it's validity.

A few credentialed crackpots who deny it are no different from the few credentialed crackpots that can be found rather easily that claim the world is 5000 years old and the couple of others that claim the planet is flat.

You guys always inject your whacked out misinformation into conversation that has nothing to do with it, that is a sign of desperation you know. Though why you'd be desperate about something like that is beyond me. Maybe your house is within 20 feet of sea level? That might make me desperate as well.
Or maybe it's that if he ran he'd win. I can see how that would make an obvious Republic such as yourself desperate as well.
Not to worry, the Republics are going to lose seats again in the next one.
Thank George for that one.
No need to get worked up right now about it.

So what's next, a Clinton tirade?

As for LDE, can't wait to hear some of that freakiness myself. Just a matter of time...

[k0cmh]

Very interesting article, but I wish the author would have gone out on a limb a little more and discussed some more possibilities.

One though I keep having is the possibility of some refracting or reflection condition in space, approximately 4 seconds (at the speed of radio waves) away. #That would give the seemingly usual time delay of 8 seconds.

We know that it doesn't take much rf power at all to travel though unobstructed space. #The space shuttle Hams communicate from orbit to earth surface with only 5 and 10 watts of uhf/vhf power. #The probes to Mars and other planets do not have multi-kilowatt transmitters and we get pictures from them. #So RF can travel very long distances through "empty" space.

Also, I keep remembering reports of radio and television transmissions being received again, much much later (days, weeks, years). #But are these authentic, or urban tales, or just BS? #That I don't know. #But if they are authentic, then the possibility of some sort of reflective mechanism out in space would appear probable.

Another thought I had about the reflective mechanism in space would follow this scenario: #There could well be LDEs of 10 minutes, four hours, a day, but are basically undetected because those transmitting those signals are not listening hours are days later. #Others receiving these possible LDEs would assume they are in "real time". #An amateur would try to respond to a 10 hour LDE, not get a response, and think nothing more of it. #Just another unanswerable transmission due to the "propagation gods".

Most Ham exchanges are measured in a few minutes or less, so LDEs of anything more than seconds or a minute or so would mostly likely be undetected by the original person transmitting them. #They are gone off to another contact or frequency by the time a 20 minute LDE would arrive.

However, one would think with all the contesting that has been going on, with individuals "camping" on a frequency for hours at a time, would have caught a really long period LDE.

I guess there are still some things for us to learn about our universe.

So far, it appears to me the plasma wave is the most plausable.

But I could understand something like a small wiff of solar particles, traveling in space, at just the right shape and ionization, and distance that it would reflect RF escaping from our atmosphere. #As these clouds (or whatever) from our star and other stars travel through space and encounter our RF, why not?

Do we completely understand the mechanism of "ducting" of vhf and uhf signals? #

This is one of the most interesting threads I have seen on this site.

I hope some others can contribute more information.

Added upon edit: (meant to be humerous): So maybe some of those "frequency fights" during a contest was actually the person aruging with their won LDEs (hi hi).

[n6ajr]

Also there is the posibility of the signal being bounced off of something besides the moon. what if we recieved a reflection from something in the kuiper belt, that would have an echo measured in hours, and it is possible as we are still recieving signals from one of the voyager craft like 10 years after launch, so jupiter or saturn bounce gould give us a nice 5 minute echo....

[N7YA]

Quote[/b] (kv1m @ July 09 2007,19:46)]W9WHE, you might as well admit it.

YOU are responsible for global warming.
All that hot air coming out your mouth is raising the temperature of the atmosphere, and I bet it's why we have had such poor propagation for the last couple of years. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Seriously though, are you some kind of climate expert? Do you know any?

And what exactly does that have to do with LDE? #

#http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

73,

Todd
Oh Geez!! Thanks a lot...you took the bait. I was hoping we could get just ONE thread out without having an ongoing rant about liberals on here from Jonathan, but you had to go stir him up. I was just hoping his one little post would go unnoticed, he would speak his peace and everyone would be happy...not to be.

Hey, hes all yours now...enjoy. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

73...Adam, N7YA

(crossing fingers that Chip doesnt stop in, even with a friendly and informative post...the whole place would erupt in insults)

[N7YA]

....too late

>>sigh<<

It was a nice LDE thread while we had it...its all crap from here.

[KV1M]

Quote[/b] (N7YA @ July 10 2007,18:12)]Quote[/b] (kv1m @ July 09 2007,19:46)]W9WHE, you might as well admit it.

YOU are responsible for global warming.
All that hot air coming out your mouth is raising the temperature of the atmosphere, and I bet it's why we have had such poor propagation for the last couple of years. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Seriously though, are you some kind of climate expert? Do you know any?

And what exactly does that have to do with LDE? #

#http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

73,

Todd
Oh Geez!! #Thanks a lot...you took the bait. I was hoping we could get just ONE thread out without having an ongoing rant about liberals on here from Jonathan, but you had to go stir him up. #I was just hoping his one little post would go unnoticed, he would speak his peace and everyone would be happy...not to be.

Hey, hes all yours now...enjoy. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

73...Adam, N7YA

(crossing fingers that Chip doesnt stop in, even with a friendly and informative post...the whole place would erupt in insults)
Sorry about that. Been having a bad day and he ticked me off. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I'll be sure to ignore him in the future.

As for Chip, I thought he was busy harassing eHam these days.

[n2nh]

Not Me. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[w1yw]

Quote[/b] (N7YA @ July 10 2007,15:12)]73...Adam, N7YA

(crossing fingers that Chip doesnt stop in, even with a friendly and informative post...the whole place would erupt in insults)
See: "A LONG-DELAYED ECHO REVISITED", Cohen, Davis and Davis, QST, Feb 1978.

The 'Cohen' is W1YW, then N1IR.

73,
Chip W1YW

[W5HTW]

Quote[/b] (k0cmh @ July 10 2007,14:28)]Also, I keep remembering reports of radio and television transmissions being received again, much much later (days, weeks, years). But are these authentic, or urban tales, or just BS? That I don't know. But if they are authentic, then the possibility of some sort of reflective mechanism out in space would appear probable.
HARK!!! Did I just hear that Japan attacked Pearl Harbor??!! Are we at war?? My gosh! And I think there was something about Germany invading Poland. And I heard that some strange critters just landed in New Jersey, too.

That was just plain old BS, of the Edgar Cayce type, and Little Green Men type. It was said long off the air radio stations were suddenly heard again. People are always looking for the supernatural, as a means of proving we are not mere red-blooded animals, and that we are special, so civilizations from gabatrillion of miles away are anxious to see what we might be doing that threatens them. Or how they can send our God down to check on us.

It's garbage.

Imagine this (turning back serious a moment). A duct, a sort of pipeline, that slowly moves around the earth. It picks up your signal, and then, through a series of delays, re-radiates portions of it back to you. But why only portions? Why not the whole thing? Well, the duct is moving. So you get a portion, but then some guy 100 miles away from you gets another portion. He doesn't know it is an echo - he thinks it's Memorex! It's live! But you aren't really there. And then you disappear and you are now heard, in still a later segment of your original transmission, another 100 miles further away. Eventually the duct "output" is over the ocean, and no one hears it anymore, and then that particular duct falls apart and the RF signal it contains is gone forever into space.

To do that, you would have to be in exactly the right place at the right time, to put a signal INTO the duct, and still more vexing, you'd have to again be in the right place at the right time to hear it at the output of the duct! Chances would be terribly slim to none. Delays would depend upon the size, length, diameter, and forward motion of the duct.

Signals propagated into outer space and returned after being bounced off some asteroid belt a trillion miles away, would have so much Doppler on them from the earth's movement, we would never hear them, unless on some radically different frequency. Where we don't happen to be listening!

Ed

[VE7NOT]

Quote[/b] (va7aax @ July 09 2007,07:02)]our signals are going to be too weak to go to Mars and come back as there are 100w only! 10000 kW is a different story
You realize that the lunar missions had 25 watt transmitters? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[KV1M]

Raawr! Insult insult... insult...

SQUAWK! insult...


.....insult insult....


...insuuult...

INSULT! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

73! ....raaawk!

[KV1M]

Quote[/b] (w1yw @ July 10 2007,20:11)]Quote[/b] (N7YA @ July 10 2007,15:12)]73...Adam, N7YA

(crossing fingers that Chip doesnt stop in, even with a friendly and informative post...the whole place would erupt in insults)
See: "A LONG-DELAYED ECHO REVISITED", Cohen, Davis and Davis, QST, Feb 1978.

The 'Cohen' is W1YW, then N1IR.

73,
Chip W1YW
Awesome, friendly AND informative!


73!

Todd

[KA5LQJ]

Does this mean we will also hear echos from outer space and be clobbered forever with news about Haris Pilton, Uzsie O'Donald, or some drivel about some blabbering iD10T?

If I were to want to hear anything again, it would be the sounds of the voices of my s/k friends or possibly those radio programs from years ago, Gunsmoke, the Bar-B-Bar Ranch, Sky King, the Jack Benny Show, Burns & Allen, the Shadow, the Lone Ranger, Fibber McGee & Molly or Lum & Abner at the Jot-em Down store? # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif # Oops! #I showing my age #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Note: No religion or political figures were harmed in this post.

Respectfully,
73,
Don/KA5-LQJ

[W7EKB]

I experienced an LDE in the 1960s while I was NCS on PAN on about 3620 Khz CW. I was using full-QSK and a KW. I started hearing what sounded like someone trying to break me between my dots. The signal was fairly weak, but clear with no QSB or flutter.

Once I realized it was an echo, I started sending individual dots, and waiting for the echo.

The signal level kept increasing until it was about "S-7" or so, and the delay kept getting longer and longer. I think the longest time between my sending a dot and the echo was several seconds.

Then the echos started getting weaker, until finally the effect faded out.

I think the total time involved was almost 30 seconds, as I recall it.

[KC8VWM]

I don't think it's entirely impossible for a signal under certain condition to travel a multiple number of times around the earth. Not common, but not impossible.

I think most would agree that a signal traveling at the speed of light takes approx. 1/7th of a second to travel around the earth.

If some hams have reported hearing a 9 second delay in their signal, it would have traveled 65 times around the earth.

Would that be all that unusual? Yes, perhaps unusual but would it be entirely impossible? i would have to conclude not exactly.

Basically, I feel if a signal can travel one time around the earth, then what's stopping a signal from traveling around the earth a multiple number of times under certain and the right conditions?

Hams observe many other forms of propagation that is similarly rare or uncommon in scope, perhaps this is just another form of signal path propagation that is just that.

No magic, no aliens or space clouds. Just everyday common propagation involving unusual and multiple travel under the right conditions. Perhaps there is even some charged particles responsible for signal amplification involved resulting in little or no decay to the signal while the signal is traveling it's multiple path. Perhaps this so called long delay echo phenomenon is really just multiple signal path propagation occurring under the right conditions?

73 de Charles - KC8VWM

[af6bv]

Quote[/b] (KA5LQJ @ July 09 2007,07:50)]http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif HUH?

Given the Speed of Light, wouldn't a radio signal travel about 7 times around the Earth in one second? Hearing a delay longer than that seems impossible. Even on "backscatter" it wouldn't be that much of a delay.

Respectfully,
73,
Don/KA5-LQJ
I wonder if so-called "chordal-hop" propagation could be involved.

That's when a radio signal, due to tilts in the ionosphere or very low incident angle, doesn't return to earth, but simply bounces from the ionosphere, to the ionosphere, until finally some tilt or discontinuity reflects it back to Earth again.

I suppose a signal could travel round-and-round a few dozen times before returning, and given the efficiency of propagation where there were no ground returns involved except at the endpoints, perhaps the signal would on rare occasions be strong enough to notice.....

At any rate, "chordal hop" is an argument that for DX, the lowest angle of radiation is always best, rather than the optimum angle based on the assumption of multi-hop propagation where the ground is always at one end of each hop.

[W9WHE]

KV1M (Tod) writes:

"Trotting out that tired old [Gore claiming to] inventing the internet thing again I see.....Never mind that it's been debunked as a Rove lie for over 6 years now".

FACT: On March, 9, 1999, in an interview with Wolf Blitzer on CNN, your hero, internet Al Gore, CLAIMED:


" During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet".


AL Gore's OWN words, spoken to Wolf Blitzer, on CNN.
Carl Rove tactic? I think not. Link to CNN's webpage with the transcript:

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLI....pt.gore (http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/03/09/president.2000/transcript.gore/)

But hey Tod, let's not let FACTS get in the way of liberal #propiganda, shall we?. Gore (all four of them) have been TOTALLY DISCREDITED. But why accept the truth, when you can blame things on Carl Rove?[/B]

[KC8VWM]

Al Gore didn't invent the internet. Period.

The internet was invented by several people. If any two people are to be credited for "inventing the Internet," it was Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf iwho invented the Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) in 1973 which is what is primarily responsible for moving data on the modern Internet as we know it today.

Even they have publically stated, "No one person or even small group of persons exclusively "invented" the internet.

Source: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000....cognise (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/10/02/net_builders_kahn_cerf_recognise/)

73 de Charles - KC8VWM

[W9WHE]

KC8VWM writes:

"Al Gore didn't invent the internet. Period".

Oh yes Charles, he did. Internet Al said so.
If one of the Al Gores (Internet AL, Alpha-male AL, Earth-tone AL or Enviornmental AL) said so, it MUST be true!

EVERYTHING Al says is true!
So if Enviornmental Al says the seas will rise 20 feet and the earth will go up in flames, it must be true! So, start buying those carbon credits from Enviornmental Al's company! He needs the money to pay for 58,000 pounds of PRIVATE JET FUEL he burns on EACH private jet trip to the UN!

[KV1M]

Quote[/b] (kc8vwm @ July 11 2007,14:31)]Al Gore didn't invent the internet. Period.

The internet was invented by several people. If any two people are to be credited for "inventing the Internet," it was Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf iwho invented the Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) in 1973 which is what is primarily responsible for moving data on the modern Internet as we know it today.

Even they have publically stated, "No one person or even small group of persons exclusively "invented" the internet.

Source: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000....cognise (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/10/02/net_builders_kahn_cerf_recognise/)

73 de Charles - KC8VWM
Nor did he claim to have invented the internet.

And they discredit the notion that Gore claims to be the inventor as well as giving Gore credit for the promotion and expansion of the internet into the public sphere.

"As Vice President Gore promoted building the Internet both up and out, as well as releasing the Internet from the control of the government agencies that spawned it. He served as the major administration proponent for continued investment in advanced computing and networking and private sector initiatives such as Net Day. He was and is a strong proponent of extending access to the network to schools and libraries. Today, approximately 95% of our nation's schools are on the Internet. Gore provided much-needed political support for the speedy privatization of the Internet when the time arrived for it to become a commercially-driven operation."

Unfortunate choice of words perhaps, but he did in a sense create the internet you know today through his recognition and promotion. Without Al this would still just be a research and military network.

Keep on spinning W9WHE. It's all you got.

[W9WHE]

Tod:

On March 9, 1999, Internet Al Gore claimed to have created the internet during his service in the US Senate. Deal with it. Al said it. CNN recorded it. CNN broadcasted the interview and we all saw it. CNN transcribed the interview and we all read it. Deal with it. Your hero is a liar.


http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLI....pt.gore (http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/03/09/president.2000/transcript.gore/)


But hey, let's not let the FACTS get in the way of good propiganda, now shall we? Why balme Internet Al Gore when you can blame Carl Rove! Afterall, a dirty trick by Carl Rove forced Al Gore to say those words, right? or, mabey it was actally global warming that made Al say those words! In any event, its not Al's fault.....ITS SOCIETY'S FAULT.

Tod, perhaps its time to STOP believeing everything you read on those far-left, kook websites.

[KV1M]

By the way, I wasn't aware this was a political Blog.
I was under the impression it was about Amateur Radio.

Since we are a diverse group of people with widely varied political influences why does politics keep popping up around here?

W9WHE, Huffington Post is a great place for you to LDE liberals to your hearts content. Smirking Chimp is another, as well as Crooks and Liars. Those guys are just waiting for a spinster such as yourself.

Or you could go hang out a Little Green Footballs if you want to LDE other LDE miesters. They also have an extensive wingnut blog list for you to choose others more suited to your temperament.

But here? Are you daft?

[KV1M]

Sorry, see below.

[W9WHE]

LDEs are caused by global warming, which is caused by Enviornmental Al's HUGE carbon footprint!
58,000 pounds of jet fuel burned with EACH PRIVATE JET TRIP to the UN. In ONE PRIVATE JET TRIP TO THE UN, ENVIORNMENTAL AL GORE BURNS MORE FUEL THEN 500 SUVs DO IN AN WHOLE MONTH.

We now have a consensus, LDEs are caused by Al Gore's HUGE carbon footprint. The issue is no longer debateable!

[KV1M]

Quote[/b] (kv1m @ July 11 2007,15:52)]<blockquote>W9WHE writes:
Tod:

On March 9, 1999, Internet Al Gore claimed to have created the internet during his service in the US Senate. Deal with it. Al said it. CNN recorded it. CNN broadcasted the interview and we all saw it. CNN transcribed the interview and we all read it. Deal with it. Your hero is a liar.


http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLI....pt.gore


But hey, let's not let the FACTS get in the way of good propiganda, now shall we? Why balme Internet Al Gore when you can blame Carl Rove! Afterall, a dirty trick by Carl Rove forced Al Gore to say those words, right? or, mabey it was actally global warming that made Al say those words! In any event, its not Al's fault.....ITS SOCIETY'S FAULT.

Tod, perhaps its time to STOP believeing everything you read on those far-left, kook websites. </blockquote>
Really, a liar?

Tough words from a supporter of Bush/Rove/Chenney/Rumsfield/Gonzales/Libby.

One is a convicted liar, the rest are known liars under investigation for (you guessed it) lying. That would be investigation for far more than misspeaking during an interview.

"Hey, look over there!" doesn't work any more.
Time to call Carl for some new spin there guy.

[W9WHE]

EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT LDEs are caused by global warming, which is caused by Enviornmental Al's HUGE carbon footprint!
Enviornmental Al burns 58,000 pounds of jet fuel with EACH PRIVATE JET TRIP to the UN. In ONE PRIVATE JET TRIP TO THE UN, ENVIORNMENTAL AL GORE BURNS MORE FUEL THEN 500 SUVs DO IN AN WHOLE MONTH.

We now have a consensus, LDEs are caused by Al Gore's HUGE carbon footprint. The issue is no longer debateable!

[KV1M]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ July 11 2007,16:02)]EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT LDEs are caused by global warming, which is caused by Enviornmental Al's HUGE carbon footprint!
Enviornmental Al burns 58,000 pounds of jet fuel with EACH PRIVATE JET TRIP to the UN. In ONE PRIVATE JET TRIP TO THE UN, ENVIORNMENTAL AL GORE BURNS MORE FUEL THEN 500 SUVs DO IN AN WHOLE MONTH.

We now have a consensus, LDEs are caused by Al Gore's HUGE carbon footprint. The issue is no longer debateable!
Oh, and about global warming since your stuck on the subject:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn....topnews (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/11/AR2007071100942.html?hpid=topnews)

Unequivocal is the word that was used.

[k4avl]

TCP/IP was originally written for UNIX systems, back in the 70's, for which networking, multitasking, etc., were already implemented. Apple & Windows systems came much, much later. The same model and basic functionality is still used, and the internet is still basically a "UNIX" protocol. The original structure of UNIX was developed by AT&T (Bell Labs) in the 60's, and the same basic core concept is still the "mission critical" backbone of the internet and computing today, and Mac OSX, Linux, the BSD's and many others are newer adaptations of this.

More info on TCP/IP and a lot of informative links:
http://www.answers.com/topic/tcp-ip?cat=technology

More info on UNIX:
http://www.answers.com/topic/unix-1?cat=technology

[KV1M]

Quote[/b] (k4avl @ July 11 2007,18:46)]TCP/IP was originally written for UNIX systems, back in the 70's, for which networking, multitasking, etc., were already implemented. Apple & Windows systems came much, much later. The same model and basic functionality is still used, and the internet is still basically a "UNIX" protocol. The original structure of UNIX was developed by AT&T (Bell Labs) in the 60's, and the same basic core concept is still the "mission critical" backbone of the internet and computing today, and Mac OSX, Linux, the BSD's and many others are newer adaptations of this.

More info on TCP/IP and a lot of informative links:
http://www.answers.com/topic/tcp-ip?cat=technology

More info on UNIX:
http://www.answers.com/topic/unix-1?cat=technology
Nice synopsis, basically accurate except that TCP grew out of the lack of error correction in the current UDP protocols. This was a necessary step as the network stopped being a point to point type of affair and grew into the distributed connection model we have today. TCP is just the error correction part of the protocol suite TCP/IP.
This stands for Transmission Control Protocol/Internetworking Protocol.
It is the IP part of the TCP/IP protocol that transmits the data, the TCP portion verifies accurate transmission and controls retransmits as needed.

Currently Novell holds the Unix trademark, but Sun holds the market share of Unix installations. Linux, a Unix like operating system, is growing in leaps and bounds making intrusions even into the financial sectors data centers.

As a Senior Unix Administrator at Fidelity Capital I prefer Solaris.

[KC8VWM]

Quote[/b] (kv1m @ July 11 2007,12:56)][quote=kv1m,July 11 2007,15:52]<blockquote>KC8VWM writes:
Tod:

On March 9, 1999, Internet Al Gore claimed to have created the internet during his service in the US Senate. Deal with it. Al said it. CNN recorded it. CNN broadcasted the interview and we all saw it. CNN transcribed the interview and we all read it. Deal with it. Your hero is a liar.
Todd,

Please refrain from misquoting what W9WHE said using my callsign. (KC8VWM)

Thank you.

[KV1M]

Quote[/b] (kc8vwm @ July 11 2007,20:30)]Quote[/b] (kv1m @ July 11 2007,12:56)][quote=kv1m,July 11 2007,15:52]<blockquote>KC8VWM writes:
Tod:

On March 9, 1999, Internet Al Gore claimed to have created the internet during his service in the US Senate. Deal with it. Al said it. CNN recorded it. CNN broadcasted the interview and we all saw it. CNN transcribed the interview and we all read it. Deal with it. Your hero is a liar.
Todd,

Please refrain from misquoting what W9WHE said using my callsign. (KC8VWM)

Thank you.
My apologies, it has been corrected.
Quoting problems on that response.

[KC8VWM]

No problem.. Thanks http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[K8MHZ]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ July 11 2007,08:02)]EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT LDEs are caused by global warming, which is caused by Enviornmental Al's HUGE carbon footprint!
Enviornmental Al burns 58,000 pounds of jet fuel with EACH PRIVATE JET TRIP to the UN. In ONE PRIVATE JET TRIP TO THE UN, ENVIORNMENTAL AL GORE BURNS MORE FUEL THEN 500 SUVs DO IN AN WHOLE MONTH.

We now have a consensus, LDEs are caused by Al Gore's HUGE carbon footprint. The issue is no longer debateable!
How old are you?

If that is too subtle

GROW UP, WILL YA??

[W9WHE]

Its called sarcasim, my friend.
Repeat your opponent's words in a similar context, to illustrate just how silly they are.

Its also called "reducto ad absurdum". Roughly translated, it means reduce your opponent's arguments to the absurd. Emviornmental Al Gore whines about SUVs. Yet, he burns enough fuel with his PRIVATE JET, in 2 hours, to run 500 SUVs for a month. And you think Al is credible? #Give me a break!

[KV1M]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ July 12 2007,11:01)]Its called sarcasim, my friend.
Repeat your opponent's words in a similar context, to illustrate just how silly they are.
So you are saying you don't actually believe the crap you've been typing?

Interesting.

You know O'Rielly said the same thing and then continued to lie.

[KV1M]

Quote[/b] (kv1m @ July 12 2007,11:42)]Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ July 12 2007,11:01)]Its called sarcasim, my friend.
Repeat your opponent's words in a similar context, to illustrate just how silly they are.
So you are saying you don't actually believe the crap you've been typing?

Interesting.

You know O'Rielly said the same thing and then continued to lie.
Nah, I don't buy it.

You're a wingnut.

[W9WHE]

K1VM writes:

"You're a wingnut".

Right. EVERYBODY that disagrees with your #UNscientific "consensus" of biased, finincially motovated so-called psudo-science is a "wing nut". Yea. We get it.




WE ALL KNOW that "Enviornmental" Al Gore is full of mule muffins, the same way "Internet" Al Gore is full of horse hockey! #And as for "Alpha Male" Al Gore and Earth Tone Al Gore.....well, you get the idea.

In fact, all 4 Al Gores are just NOT CREDIBLE.
All 4 Al Gores are just trying to get rich from frightening poor women, children & minorities with his "global warming" tripe, all part of his greedy scheme to sell sell worthless carbon credits to enrich himself.

What we need are subpeoneas, investigations and inditements!
WHAT DID AL GORE KNOW AND WHEN DID HE KNOW IT.

[N7YA]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ July 12 2007,11:05)]WE ALL KNOW that "Enviornmental" Al Gore is full of mule muffins, the same way "Internet" Al Gore is full of horse hockey! #And as for "Alpha Male" Al Gore and Earth Tone Al Gore.....well, you get the idea.

In fact, all 4 Al Gores are just NOT CREDIBLE.
All 4 Al Gores are just trying to get rich from frightening poor women, children & minorities with his "global warming" tripe, all part of his greedy scheme to sell sell worthless carbon credits to enrich himself.

What we need are subpeoneas, investigations and inditements!
They keep trying, but Bush keeps getting his rich friends off from having to face that sort of thing. As for Gore, well i sure hope he finds his mythical 'Manbearpig' he's been looking for.

At this point, i dont care who invented the internet....im ready to slap him.

73...Adam, N7YA

[KL7FZ]

Cripes! This thread went from LDEs to Al Gore, Global Warming and TCP/IP/UNIX. Good grief!

I also have had experience with LDEs. But one thing I do find quite curious that seems to be constant with all reports of such is the lack of Doppler on the return signals. Everything in our universe is moving away/toward #us at some generally great speed. The moon itself moves toward and away from the earth at speeds sufficently to doppler the signals. Other bodies, clouds, and plasmas around us are also moving and generally at speeds MUCH greater than that of the moon so any returning signals would certainly be offset by a large frequency excursion which would be very apparent on narrow modes such as CW. So much that most of the time, if one was listening on the same frequency as the transmitted signal, you would never hear the return. Yet almost all reports of LDEs are of hearing the signal on the same frequency. So this is the real puzzle here. #

From Monty Python's "The Meaning of Life", The Galaxy Song, written by Eric Idle:

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the "Milky Way".

Everything is screaming around at huge speeds in relation to everything else. So if the echos were to come from some source distant to be consistant with the time delays some have noted, then the doppler shift would be huge.

KL7FastZoom

[aa4w]

I just wanted to add my experiences with LDE's. In the late 60's I spent quite a bit of time on aircraft carriers in the Mediterainean and we were running lots of phone patches. On numerous occasions I heard the last several words we had transmitted after we unkeyed the transmitter. At first I thought it was someone playing a prank but I soon realized it was our signals. The delays were longer during times when the propagation was best and as I remember I never heard them during daylight hours which figures in with the ionaspheric conditions. #I agree it is an odd sensation the first few time you hear it.

Rick #AA4W

[W1GYF]

The other night I was listening to 80 CW and heard WN1GYF calling CQ on 3723 amidst a lot of SSB. Musta been me finally bustin outa 1955. Didn't have much power back then.

[K8MHZ]

Has anyone explored the possibility of LDEs coming from INSIDE our receivers?

Until we fully understand the phenomena we can't negate the possibility that strong ionic and / or magnetic forces are causing signals to be stored and released by circuitry in our own radios.

The phenomena has been going on a long, long time and even the best of minds have not come up with a suitable explanation. #Could it be that they have been looking in the wrong place all these years?

It may be possible that we are experiencing signals that get stored inside either capacitors or coils by virtue of solar forces and under the right circumstances are regenerated back into the circuitry by the collapse of said forces, or by the repetition of the forces under just the right circumstances.

It may not be the reactive components as I was using them as a possibility, but has anyone else noticed that this phenomena seemed to be first noticed when reactive components started showing up in receivers?

[k4eez]

Quote[/b] (KC7UP @ July 09 2007,03:11)]I had LDE happen to me 50 years ago while working for the govt. in Alaska . We used Hf to work aircraft and I kept hearing an echo. I was beamed south and the signal was returning from the north.
Curt
hey Curt hope all is well, wouldn’t that be the difference between the long path and short path, where the short path is where the main signal is emitting from and the long path is going around the globe and then into your antenna, it also states in one of the Gordon west books when I was studying for my General, he talked about different types of effects long and short paths, that sometimes the long path is more better received than the more direct path.

I have also listen to the codes on the 7mhz band, Alpha, tango, two, delta, alpha, foxtrot, one,,,, and some times I can hear them both at the same time long and short and I get an echo
It also depends on propagation and your environment.

Just wanted to throw in my 2 pence
7 3
K4eeZ

[W9WHE]

K8MHZ writes:

"The phenomena [LDE] has been going on a long, long time and even the best of minds have not come up with a suitable explanation".

Aren't you overlooking Al Gore?
Afterall, he, in his own mind, CREATED the internet. And his "best mind" blames everything bad on either global warming or George Bush.

W9WHE

[KG8FV]

I know this seems weird but I had this done to me years ago when I was on 20 meters. I was calling cq and I heard my call come back to me with in a few minutes.

73 Charlie KG8FV Ashland, Ohio

[W9WHE]

Are you familliar with Digital Recording Units?

[W9WHE]

W1GF writes:

"The other night I was listening to 80 CW and heard WN1GYF calling CQ on 3723 amidst a lot of SSB. Musta been me finally bustin outa 1955".

Green house gasses created by Al Gore's private jet trips to the UN (buring 58,000 pounds of fuel for each flight) released your 55 year old signal from the deep recesses of Al Gore's internet. If we are not careful, reruns of Al Gore Sr. (Democrat Tennesee) speeches OPPOSING the Civil Rights Act of 1964 will be released next!

[kn4lf]

The same guy's that create crop circles are making the LDE's, both frauds!

An LDE fairly common propagation mechanism by which an RF transmitted signal returns to the sender within 1.25-5 seconds and in rare cases of up to 30 seconds. Research in the 1980's with HF OTHR discovered one propagation mechanism which involves ducting of the transmitted signal in the E-valley-F layer duct region of the ionosphere. A signal traveling along a magnetic field line much like a lightning induced whistler is another possibility.

The best time to observe an LDE is during the Fall/Spring equinox period when conditions are more balanced in the ionosphere. LDE's are very noticeable on amateur and SW broadcast signals between 17-28 mc with a peak near the maximum usable frequency (MUF). As recently as fall 2003 I did my own brief experiments using Morse code (CW) on the 15 meters band. I personally observed LDE's of my own transmitted signal of approximately 1.5-3 seconds and I could hear a mushy kind of Doppler shift on my returned signal frequency.

Claims of very long delayed echo's (VLDE) on the order of hours and even days have been reported since the beginning of radio. Time periods of this magnitude would point to the "seeming possibility" of a refracting ionospheric type medium outside of Earth's own ionosphere, possibly somewhere past Pluto in the Oort Cloud. However no evidence so far has been found of such a medium and 99% of reported VLDE's are "probably" hoaxes.

[kn4lf]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ July 10 2007,07:24)]KV1M writes:

"Seriously though, are you some kind of climate expert?"


I'm every bit as much a "climate expert" as all FOUR AL GORES, including:

1) Earth Tone AL
2) Alpha Male AL
3) Internet Creater AL; and
4) Enviornmental AL.



"Do you know any?"

Sure do.
And they think Al Gore is full of.......(BEEP).



W9WHE
If you really want to learn about the lie of harmful man induced climate change (global warming) check out the following website:

http://www.kn4lf.com/globalwarminglie.htm .

[N1NKM]

Quote[/b] (kn4lf @ July 13 2007,21:55)]Claims of very long delayed echo's (VLDE) on the order of hours and even days have been reported since the beginning of radio. Time periods of this magnitude would point to the "seeming possibility" of a refracting ionospheric type medium outside of Earth's own ionosphere, possibly somewhere past Pluto in the Oort Cloud. However no evidence so far has been found of such a medium and 99% of reported VLDE's are "probably" hoaxes.
Beyond the Oort cloud would probably be DAYS. It takes light 8 minutes to reach us from the Sun. If it were possible to bounce signals off of old Sol, that would be a 16 minute round-trip.

Is there some kind of ultra-weak ionic cloud around Earth at roughly twice the moon's orbit? That could account for the 9 seconds.

LDE is a fascinating topic. the fact that it has been observed by SO MANY people, for so long, and in so many diverse places pretty effectively rules out hoaxing. It has to be something in space that travels with the Earth, (lack of noticable doppler offset) but the effect can only be heard when conditions are "just right", explaining the relative rarity of the phenomena.

Another thought... perhaps some ionic cloud that occasionally gets caught in one of the Earths lagrange points... the cloud "hovers" there, in relative motionlessness, reflecting signals that hit it. As it undulates, those reflections come and go. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable about such things can post about it. There are several lagrange points, and one or two of them may be 4.5 light-seconds away.

The fact that it was noticed LONG before satellite technology, rules out a man-made device "out there" returning the signals. It has to be naturally-occuring.

It's just something else to make you say, "Hmmmmmmmmm....."

[W5HTW]

Stanford University's Physics lab studied LDES in the 1960s, and asked for reports. I submitted my own, heard in about 1966.

There was an article in QST about Stanford's research, but there was no conclusion.

Ed

[W9WHE]

"There was an article in QST about Stanford's [LDE] research, but there was no conclusion".

Well, not according to Al Gore (the enviornmental one)!
According to Al, there is now a consensus. The issue is no longer debateable. Haven't you been listening? Al Gore has, by sheer force of his massive intellect, SQUELCHED ALL debate, dissention and discussion.

So start buying your carbon credits from Al Gore's carbon credit company and make him even richer!


W9WHE

[N1NKM]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ July 16 2007,10:00)]"There was an article in QST about Stanford's [LDE] research, but there was no conclusion".

Well, not according to Al Gore (the enviornmental one)!
And this relates to LDE's **HOW**?!?!??!?!

For Pete's sake, STAY ON TOPIC! Sheesh! >:P

[W9WHE]

Some people do just do not understand.

1) Al Gore claims that Global warming is caused by green house gases released by man's buring of fossil fuels.

2) #Buring fossil fuels to power your ham radio, releases green house gases, which cause global warming.

3) Global warming increases "ducting" within the ionosphere. This ducting traps your signal as it circles the earth at 186,000 miles per second, producing LDE when the signal finally escapes from the duct. Since we now have a consensus, the issue is no longer debateable.

If you disagree, then you are just a global warming/LDE denier.



W9WHE

[N1NKM]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ July 16 2007,11:48)]2) Buring fossil fuels to power your ham radio, releases green house gases, which cause global warming.
I guess you have never heard of stations using solar power? I have the ability to do so.

The only greenhouse gasses happening right here, is your HOT AIR. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

I guess we may as well consider the topic of LDE's as having been permanently hijacked. Sigh. OH WELL!!!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

It was interesting while it lasted. We now leave this topic to the idiocy that has taken over. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Consider me QRT from this one. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[va3znw]

LDE: Obsevation LDE by radioamateurs from exUSSR:
Lots people met the strange phenomenon....

http://www.antentop.org/009/time_warp009.htm
http://www.antentop.org/008/time_warp008.htm

One of my hypotesus of the LDE:- It just my opinion, may be I 'm mistaken...

http://www.antentop.org/007/lde007.htm

73, Igor,
va3znw

[n9kpn]

I experienced LDE on 11M (CB SSB) back in the late 80's. A friend would be in town and drive to college some 50 miles away. He'd go mobile and I'd use my base station. The almost half way point, 27 miles, was where we would have to sign off. Sometimes we'd make it a little bit longer, but rarely too much farther.

One evening as he is headed back to school as he got further apart, we kept hearing another station jump in. He'd hear one when I talked, I'd here one when he talked. But they would not reply when we we addressed them. As he got further away we noted that we were hearing a delay of the original transmission! Once past the half way point we could hear each other from the delayed transmission. This was one of the only times we could hear each other the full 60 or so miles. Eventually the echo faded and we lost contact.

[W9WHE]

N1NKM writes:

"I guess you have never heard of stations using solar power?"

And what percentage of ham stations exclusively use solar power? #0.001% THEREFORE, your argument concerning solar powered ham stations is 99.999% HOT AIR.

W9WHE

[N1NKM]

Quote[/b] (W9WHE @ July 25 2007,11:55)]And what percentage of ham stations exclusively use solar power? 0.001% THEREFORE, your argument concerning solar powered ham stations is 99.999% HOT AIR.

W9WHE
Sigh... who p*ssed in your Cheerios, anyway?!

Rotten curmudgeon! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[W8NSI]

Quote[/b] (N7PLC @ July 09 2007,03:01)]how about mars bounce?
So how about it bouncing off Uranus?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


73 de jim w8nsi

[n2nh]

Could it be possible that the LDEs are being caused by a solid body in one of the Lagrange points? L2, L4 and L5 are all about 5.0 light seconds away. In the case of L2, a signal following the Earth's magnetic field during a solar flare, could theoretically reach that point. In any event, according to KN4LF:

Quote[/b] ]The best time to observe an LDE is during the Fall/Spring equinox period when conditions are more balanced in the ionosphere. LDE's are very noticeable on amateur and SW broadcast signals between 17-28 mc with a peak near the maximum usable frequency (MUF).

#19 on Page 25. - LDEs (http://www.k1ttt.net/technote/kn4lf/kn4lf8.pdf)