Excellent outdoor radio box for cheap.

[ka5piu]

Hello.

One person asked about using a computer case for a radio.
Some have gutted older radios and used this for the case of a modern radio or even a computer case.
http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=44576&page=1
Cities around the nation are upgrading traffic control.
While roaming thru our cities scrap bin I came across just the ticket, the older traffic control boxes.
Inside are over a dozen mating cannon connectors as well as 2 massive power relays along with a high power solid state flasher.
There are rails on the top for 19 inch mounting and 3 shelves with more than 26 inches of space on the lower shelves.
The nifty flip out control panel has 2 switches and a phone jack under lock.
The entire box is also very well secured.
This is mounted on a massive base and pole that brings the bottom of the case to nearly 3 feet high.
One weights in at well over 500 pounds.
The first one I got I removed the base and put massive casters on a wood frame under it.
This has 2 industrial duty rack mount computers that were getting junked, I replaced the 486 motherboards with modern ones.
There are also 2 PLC units and battery backup.
Everything started out free.
I bought the MoBo's and a few other things, cable for power and the like, but only minor stuff.
Now I am looking at this as an ideal box for at the tower equipment.
One could put an HF autotuner and a UHF repeater in the box.
My tower in San Antonio is totally mobile, so mounting this on the trailer may be an idea.
But, the real point is the cost, I was able to get 3 of the things free for the asking.
The actual traffic control units are defective, perhaps lightning damage, but have things like cannon connectors, power transformers, lights and switches, as well as whatever else, and it is all very underrated.
Food for thought.

[wa9cwx]

Some GREAT ideas, and salvaging older gear is a standard in Amateur Radio, HOWEVER...I nearly became catotonic over seeing that beautiful GRC-9 gutted for using its' CASE.... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

I have owned and used two of them over the years, had a full set, crank generator, seat and all, had a ball, and a neat set..... I just would rather NOT have the image of just grabbing one and gutting it for the case, when it looks as good as that one !!

Frank

[KA4DPO]

Yeah, I agree. The Angry-9 was a nice radio but I can see how the case could be usefull for other projects.

I hope the one that was gutted was non-repairable.

[ka5piu]

Quote[/b] (KA4DPO @ July 04 2007,12:37)]Yeah, I agree. #The Angry-9 was a nice radio but I can see how the case could be usefull for other projects.

I hope the one that was gutted was non-repairable.
Hello.

My AN/GRC-9 looks like it was pounded into the ground several times and works fine.
The condition of the radio that was stripped was in was very good.
I just got another AN/GRC-9 that is in excellent condition, almost depot level.
This is a French rebuild of a US radio, so it has the nifty sodid state inverter and 100 watt amplifer.
I bought the latest AN/GRC-9,b for $$250 complete from a gentleman in France.
You can buy the same radio,
http://www.armyradio.com/arsc/customer/home.php?cat=71

[kr9d]

You salvaged these pedestal-mounted cabinets in San Antonio? In that case, there are three possibilities:

1. The cabinet is a Type 337 signal cabinet, which is 20" wide, 17" deep, and three feet high. It was maded using a custom adaptor to the cast-iron pedestal and "transformer base" used for the Phase Rotation signal controllers that were first installed in 1957. The 337 cabinet replaced the original PR cabinet in 1988. These were used downtown for signals that didn't have protected left turns (which is most of them).

2. The cabinet is a Type 336 stretch model, which is 24" by 24" and three feet high. It was mounted using a standard cast aluminum adaptor to a 4" pipe pedestal, which was threaded into a coupling base that was case into the foundation. These were used where there were protected left turns, such as at Flores and Commerce next to City Hall.

3. The cabinet is one of the original cast magnesium cabinets that held one of several electro-mechanical controllers used outside the downtown area. I think all of these were replaced by at least 13 or 14 years ago, so this is the least likely alternative, especially since this cabinet wouldn't have the goodies inside it.

The flash transfer relays were used to switch the output bus from the signal controller to the solid-state flasher. These were actuated either by the control switch you saw in the police door, or by the conflict monitor. A 337 cabinet has two of them--enough to transfer one bank of loadswiches or six separate circuits. Each circuit is rated at about 20 amps.

The flasher is a NEMA standard item, and they are very durable. They are the controller's ultimate backup, and are designed to survive what kills the controller.

In the power distribution panel of those cabinets, there is also a bank of good-quality circuit breakers.

The load switches are not obsolete and were, I'm sure, salvaged. They are solid-state TRIAC load-reduction switches that switch 120-VAC using 24 VDC, ground true, sourced by the signal controller unit.

The computers sound like the original IBM Industrial AT's we bought for the new downtown signal system in 1989, but with some upgrades (they originally had 286 boards). Those were exceptionally well-built rack-mounted chassis.

As you can tell by now, I'm in the trade, and used to be the Signal Systems Engineer for the City of San Antonio. If you have any specific questions about what you have, I'll try to answer them.

Edit: One added note. The cabinets were fabricated from 1/8" aluminum, anodized, with stainless L-handles and Corbin #2 locks. The latches have three roller points and seal against a fully capture gasket. They comply with NEMA 3R, and you can hose them down without water entry. Excellent stuff. We paid around $4000-6000 each for these, with the signal controller (an old Model 170 with an 8-bit Motorola processor), power distribution panel, 6-12 load switches, 20 two-channel vehicle detectors, 2-4 flash transfer relays, conflict monitor, and flasher. These things are also filled with good-quality terminal strips.

The Model 170 controller used a rectangular, 102-pin connector. It occurs to me that if the cabinets you bought had round Cannon connectors, then you may have salvaged them from TxDOT, in which case I have to repeat everything I wrote above with different details, heh, heh.

Rick "who oversaw the installation of 700 new signal controllers and their control systems, 1987-1993" Denney

[ka5piu]

Quote[/b] (kr9d @ July 04 2007,13:30)]You salvaged these pedestal-mounted cabinets in San Antonio? In that case, there are three possibilities:

1. The cabinet is a Type 337 signal cabinet, which is 20" wide, 17" deep, and three feet high. It was maded using a custom adaptor to the cast-iron pedestal and "transformer base" used for the Phase Rotation signal controllers that were first installed in 1957. The 337 cabinet replaced the original PR cabinet in 1988. These were used downtown for signals that didn't have protected left turns (which is most of them).

2. The cabinet is a Type 336 stretch model, which is 24" by 24" and three feet high. It was mounted using a standard cast aluminum adaptor to a 4" pipe pedestal, which was threaded into a coupling base that was case into the foundation. These were used where there were protected left turns, such as at Flores and Commerce next to City Hall.

3. The cabinet is one of the original cast magnesium cabinets that held one of several electro-mechanical controllers used outside the downtown area. I think all of these were replaced by at least 13 or 14 years ago, so this is the least likely alternative, especially since this cabinet wouldn't have the goodies inside it.

The flash transfer relays were used to switch the output bus from the signal controller to the solid-state flasher. These were actuated either by the control switch you saw in the police door, or by the conflict monitor. A 337 cabinet has two of them--enough to transfer one bank of loadswiches or six separate circuits. Each circuit is rated at about 20 amps.

The flasher is a NEMA standard item, and they are very durable. They are the controller's ultimate backup, and are designed to survive what kills the controller.

In the power distribution panel of those cabinets, there is also a bank of good-quality circuit breakers.

The load switches are not obsolete and were, I'm sure, salvaged. They are solid-state TRIAC load-reduction switches that switch 120-VAC using 24 VDC, ground true, sourced by the signal controller unit.

The computers sound like the original IBM Industrial AT's we bought for the new downtown signal system in 1989, but with some upgrades (they originally had 286 boards). Those were exceptionally well-built rack-mounted chassis.

As you can tell by now, I'm in the trade, and used to be the Signal Systems Engineer for the City of San Antonio. If you have any specific questions about what you have, I'll try to answer them.

Edit: One added note. The cabinets were fabricated from 1/8" aluminum, anodized, with stainless L-handles and Corbin #2 locks. The latches have three roller points and seal against a fully capture gasket. They comply with NEMA 3R, and you can hose them down without water entry. Excellent stuff. We paid around $4000-6000 each for these, with the signal controller (an old Model 170 with an 8-bit Motorola processor), power distribution panel, 6-12 load switches, 20 two-channel vehicle detectors, 2-4 flash transfer relays, conflict monitor, and flasher. These things are also filled with good-quality terminal strips.

The Model 170 controller used a rectangular, 102-pin connector. It occurs to me that if the cabinets you bought had round Cannon connectors, then you may have salvaged them from TxDOT, in which case I have to repeat everything I wrote above with different details, heh, heh.

Rick "who oversaw the installation of 700 new signal controllers and their control systems, 1987-1993" Denney
Hello.

Correct, there were triac controllers that were removed, 2 massive relays and the flasher.
The lock detail is right on the money.
The cannon plugs were parts that I was able to dig up while at the boneyard so there is always the chance it did not belong there, but the markings are correct, they match the barrier strips.
The barrier strips are black 2 screw affairs by a dozen terminals or so.
Both boxes have a "conflict monitor" and both conflict monitors have cannon connectors.
The circuit breaker panel is indeed top notch.
The damaged controller has no front panel but I did get the knobs, grey but the center is whatever color of "phase", analog? is phase correct?
As you can tell, I know nothing about what goes on in a traffic signal and the fact that there are bare shelves gives little to go on.
I got this as scrap.

[WA9SVD]

Quote:
"One weights in at well over 500 pounds."

heavy, man, heavy.

May have some use for a repeater enclosure? Sounds pretty bullet proof.

[VA3SAX]

I still like my idea of using computer cases. it saves destroying a perfectly good piece of radio equipment. I'm also all for the suggestion of using other commercial odds and ends such as the traffic controller. Probably are other things we can get for cheap off ebay or free through other people that would make great cases

[kr9d]

Quote[/b] (ka5piu @ July 04 2007,14:41)]...Both boxes have a "conflict monitor" and both conflict monitors have cannon connectors.
The circuit breaker panel is indeed top notch.
The damaged controller has no front panel but I did get the knobs, grey but the center is whatever color of "phase", analog? is phase correct?
As you can tell, I know nothing about what goes on in a traffic signal and the fact that there are bare shelves gives little to go on.
If it has shelves, then it's TxDOT equipment, not City of San Antonio. The city went to rack-mounted signal controller cabinets starting in 1984, and by the time I left in 1993 I think I had them all changed out, except for some of the older electromechanical controllers that were in cast magnesium cabinets.

To a traffic signal, "phase" means the logic (hardware in the old days, software since then) in the controller that controls a load switch, and a load switch powers all the signal indications for a particular movement of traffic. Thus, the load switches, which plug in using a large NEMA 12-conductor receptacle, have LED's showing the three states (red, yellow, green) on the front of them. The controller itself would have been a box of over a foot wide, about a foot tall and as deep, with three or four large round Cannon connectors on the front. Those plus would be labeled A, B, and C. About the only value in those controllers are the connectors and hardware, but I'll bet you could find a home for some nice-looking homebrew stuff in those enclosures. Some of the newer controllers might have an LCD display.

The shelf-mount controller cabinet conforms to the NEMA TS-1 or TS-2 standard. There have been many sizes, some of them quite large. Unlike the cabinets I mentioned, the NEMA cabinets have a door on one side only. Most are designed for mounting flat on a concrete foundation and have open bottoms. The conflict monitor with a round Cannon connector is designed for a shelf-mount cabinet. The shelves are quite sturdy and are usually adjustible. Below the bottom shelf is the cabinet back-panel, where the field wiring was mated to the load switch outputs. Traffic detectors were usually terminated on strips along the sides of these cabinets to keep them separare from the 120VAC stuff.

All traffic signal cabinets have air filters on the inlet vents and thermostatically controlled ventilation fans on exit vents.

The cabinets that have replaced these probably use the newer Cabinet Bus Interface that uses an SDLC RS-485 interface between the components in the cabinet rather than discrete hard wiring.

The connectors alone are mil-spec and valuable, if you don't mine the time it takes to build the wiring harnesses that use them.

Rick "who has lived through about four generations of traffic signal technology" Denney

[ka5piu]

Hello.

Correct TXDoT.
The connectors have pigtails already.
I was also given a grade interface, another unit that drops the flasher in but can also drop it out, my guess is for a train crossing.
I remember putting cannon plugs in one of the boxes.
I finally got it open, lock picking.
There are 2 more coflict monitors, a 19" rack mount MODEM and telephone interface on the very top, it has 2 phone plugs as well as the one on the access panel.
And cannon connectors, about 200 mated pairs.
So, the question now is, how is the telephone used?
Is this a local battery or common battery and how is signalling done?
How did syncronization take place between controllers?
And, yes, a fan and a light bulb as well as a duplex outlet are in the mix.
Did TXDoT and San Antonio controllers work together?

[kr9d]

Quote[/b] (ka5piu @ July 05 2007,14:23)]Hello.

Correct TXDoT.
The connectors have pigtails already.
I was also given a grade interface, another unit that drops the flasher in but can also drop it out, my guess is for a train crossing.
I remember putting cannon plugs in one of the boxes.
I finally got it open, lock picking.
There are 2 more coflict monitors, a 19" rack mount MODEM and telephone interface on the very top, it has 2 phone plugs as well as the one on the access panel.
And cannon connectors, about 200 mated pairs.
So, the question now is, how is the telephone used?
Is this a local battery or common battery and how is signalling done?
How did syncronization take place between controllers?
And, yes, a fan and a light bulb as well as a duplex outlet are in the mix.
Did TXDoT and San Antonio controllers work together?
"Grade interface" I'm assuming is what we called a "D ring", but it still has an open bottom. It's purpose was to raise the cabinet to provide more room for conduit openings in the base.

The switch for "cabinet flash" is for a technician to use while working on the controller unit itself, and also there's usually one behind the police door for police control. That switch invokes the fllash transfer relays to move the field circuits to the NEMA flasher. The train flash is handled by the controller unit itself, and is called a "railroad preempt". A contact closure from the railroad crossing equipment triggers it. It doesn't use the flash transfer relays or the NEMA flasher, but times the flashing in software.

The lock is a standard Corbin #2, and the pattern is basically the same nationwide (you didn't hear that from me). I still have several in my desk drawer. The police-door key is also a standard, and looks like an old-fashioned skeleton key.

Modems in traffic controllers from prior years are common 1200-baud FSK modems for twisted-pair wire (I don't recall the mark and space frequencies, but any regular FSK short-haul modem would work). Later controllers use 9600-bps PSK modems. Some systems used special stuff, but TxDOT's San Antonio District never used anything too special for signal control (freeway surveillance and control is another matter).

Older controllers were coordinated using a sync pulse that was passed from a field-located signal system master controller. In the really old days of electromechanical controllers, this pulse was a 1-second dropout on a 120VAC line. Most recent systems maintain a real-time clock in the controller, and derive their local cycle timer from the real-time clock. Then, the system only has to maintain real time in the local controllers, and tell them which signal timing plan to use. This is robust when comm is lost, because the controller will stay coordinated as long as its real-time clock doesn't drift. In the U.S., all actual control of the signal indications is done in the local controller, to provide a failsafe if communications are lost, which they frequently are.

I've designed systems that use every form of communications known to man, except hydraulic and pneumatic. I've done everything from discrete signals over hardwire to FSK over twisted pairs to UHF data radio to 900MHz spread-spectrum radio to 18GHz broadband AM microwave to 31GHz narrowband FSK microwave.

For TxDOT and city controllers to work together, the people in charge of those controllers would have to work together. That was not happening during my tenure there. We liked short signal cycles and coordination to provide green-wave progression, and they like local actuation even in the presence of traffic congestion. And that sentence could be the start of that textbook I've been meaning to write on the subject.

But many times I hung wires off TxDOT controllers (they operate the signals on the freeway frontage roads but the city operates all the rest) and ran them over to the city controller. I then built sometimes complex logic, both in hardware and in controller software, to try to constrain the operation of the nearby city signal to something compatible with TxDOT's controller. I used to carry diodes in my pocket for pulling logic off their 24VDC detector and phase outputs. (An example was 281/Sandau/Ramsey.)

I don't know what they're doing now. I move to Dallas 14 years ago and to Virginia 9 years ago.

Rick "radio amateur; traffic signal system professional" Denney

[ka5piu]

Hello.

What is the point of the lever lock police key?
How can I get the key, or at least a blank?
Are they all the same or something for every area?
I was able to remove the corbin lock from the cabinet but still have the latch work, not an option with the police latch, but once I am in I can always push the latch itself.

[kr9d]

Quote[/b] (ka5piu @ July 05 2007,18:00)]Hello.

What is the point of the lever lock police key?
How can I get the key, or at least a blank?
Are they all the same or something for every area?
I was able to remove the corbin lock from the cabinet but still have the latch work, not an option with the police latch, but once I am in I can always push the latch itself.
The police-door key is standard across the nation. It's an old-fashioned skeleton key. The intent was that cops could have a key that would allow them to put the signal on flashing operation, or in some cases to manually operate the signal using a pushbutton, but not be able to get into the main part of the cabinet where they could hurt themselves. That said, the current police-door key used to be the standard cabinet key for controllers made up through the 50's or so.

You won't find a blank anywhere. These keys are not used for any other types of locks.

Your best bet is to get friendly with a traffic signal technician, and get him to slip you one once he trusts you enough to know you won't go where you shouldn't. I realize that's not really useful advice, but it's the best I can do. The cabinets are usually supplied with two Corbin keys and two police-door keys, so extras are always floating around a traffic signal shop.

A locksmith can probably make a key if you take him the lock.

Rick "who still has several Corbin keys but no police-door keys" Denney