Control Operator/Licensee Questions [Archive]

ab8yy

07-03-2007, 04:31 AM

There has been discussion concerning exactly who is responsible for transmissions from a station and who's operating previledges prevail when someone other than the station licensee is operating/talking on the station.

OK, my XYL is a technician class operator. If she is talking to someone on HF on my station, if the ID is made with my call, then I am the control operator. This is correct - am I right?

If she IDs with her call/mycall, which I believe is legal, that would make her a control operator - which can't be legal - can it?

In my opinion, she is considered, in this case, a third-party communicator in this situation.

Now, if she is operating on frequencies within her license class, she uses her call alone and the is the control operator in that case as well as the station licensee.

Obviously, she would never be allowed to communicate on HF in voice without my being present with her, I already understand that. I suppose the question here is actually - on HF frequencies, what is the proper method of IDing? What part 97 rule defines this operation? I have not been able to locate this rule anyplace.

Thanks
Steve

WA9SVD

07-03-2007, 04:57 AM

Quote[/b] (ab8yy @ July 02 2007,21:31)]
Not the easiest to answer, more than one question here.
============

There has been discussion concerning exactly who is responsible for transmissions from a station and who's operating previledges prevail when someone other than the station licensee is operating/talking on the station.

OK, my XYL is a technician class operator. If she is talking to someone on HF on my station, if the ID is made with my call, then I am the control operator. This is correct - am I right?
========================
If she IS using other than CW within Novice privs, then she IS operating third party.
====================================
If she IDs with her call/mycall, which I believe is legal, that would make her a control operator - which can't be legal - can it?
========================
If she is operating with greater than Tech/Novice privileges, YOU must be present, and are considered the control operator. But YOU must be physically present and in direct supervision of the operation.
YOU are the control operator, no matter how the call is signed.
=======================

Technically, she can NOT be the control operator with privileges greater than her own. If she wishes to operate with greaer privileges, she would have to sign with HER call/your call, and YOU would still have to function as the control operator. The same would apply if YOU were operating her station under your own higher privileges; you would technically have to sign with her call/your call. (Of course, optionally, if YOU are merely operating her station, you could just sign with your call alone, as the rules now stand, but that wouldn't get credit for awards or contests under her call.)
So yes, she would appear to be a 3rds party participant.

See §97.119 (d) and §97.119(e) for the gory details.
=================

Now, if she is operating on frequencies within her license class, she uses her call alone and the is the control operator in that case as well as the station licensee.
====================
Yes. Just as if you weren't there.
====================
Obviously, she would never be allowed to communicate on HF in voice without my being present with her, I already understand that. I suppose the question here is actually - on HF frequencies, what is the proper method of IDing? What part 97 rule defines this operation? I have not been able to locate this rule anyplace.

Thanks
Steve
=========
Again, §97.119 is the place to look.

Hope that clears things up a bit.
73

WA3KYY

07-03-2007, 01:01 PM

Just a minor nit, Technician class licensees do have SSB only voice in the 28.300 - 28.500 MHz segment of 10M along with CW privleges in the General class portions of 80, 40, 15 and 10M.

73,
Mike WA3KYY

W5HTW

07-03-2007, 02:31 PM

Simple enough. Anyplace she is using your radio, that is outside her license class privileges, she is operating as a NON-HAM! No license! Her license is not valid, therefore can't be used. You are the control operator and she is operating the station "under your control." That means you must be present. She will use your call sign, since hers has no validity outside her operating privileges.

Ed

WA9SVD

07-03-2007, 03:00 PM

Ed,

It would still be considered third party, and the fellow would have to be present as the control operator, but she (or he) could sign with her call/his call, and use the higher priveleges. §Part 97.119(e) Third party restrictions would apply to her, of course, so DX would be limited.

KC9JUB

07-03-2007, 05:39 PM

Quote[/b] (ab8yy @ July 01 2007,23:31)]There has been discussion concerning exactly who is responsible for transmissions from a station and who's operating previledges prevail when someone other than the station licensee is operating/talking on the station.
Extensive discussion of this topic can be found at the ARRL website:

http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/fd-control.html

73,

Bob - KC9JUB

W5HTW

07-03-2007, 08:03 PM

Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ July 03 2007,08:00)]Ed,

It would still be considered third party, and the fellow would have to be present as the control operator, but she (or he) could sign with her call/his call, and use the higher priveleges. §Part 97.119(e) Third party restrictions would apply to her, of course, so DX would be limited.
I don't see how her callsign could be valid on a frequency she is not licensed for. On that frequency, she isn't a ham!

Ah, but the 'rules is the rules.'

I can see, however, if she wants to sign her own call (slant) the valid call, which is her hubby's. She could sign "Barbara/slant/K4 whatever." Equally valid. What I am saying is her call sign means nothing at all used in that manner, except perhaps bragging rights, to say "See? I really am a ham.") It is not a "legal ID." So I can see why it is permitted, since the legal ID is the call sign of the control op, and the other could be anything at all. "Snoopy/slant/K6xxx" would be equally valid, no?

If she signs her call sign only, (which I admit we are not discussing here) doesn't matter if Barry Goldwater is control op, she would not be -- in my OT opinion- operating legally. If she signs her Tech call/slant/Extra call, she really isn't IDing anyway except under the Extra call sign.

Certainly it is much easier today to do control op thingies than it used to be. I guess that's a good thing, Martha.

I saw over on another site a year ago where someone is suggesting we have "family licenses." One call sign fits all.

Didn't we do that on Class D?

Anyway, I still think she is operating as a non-ham, just as ANY third person would be, under the circumstances, and therefore doesn't need a call sign except the one of the control op. In other words, she has absolutely ZERO amateur privileges, not an ounce more than a non-ham, when operating as described in the original post. THAT is my point. She could do identically the same thing if she had never heard of ham radio. No license required. So it is still just "bragging rights." I don't disagree with that. She should be proud to be a ham. However, nowadays, she should get that General ticket this week. No reason not to.

Cornfussin' -- but

Ed

kn4ds

07-03-2007, 08:22 PM

Here's a fun one for you... regarding which "station" license would have to be used..

Both our cars are in my name (due to the wife having not changed her NC driver's license back to GA when it was time to re-register the cars in GA)...

So, if I put mobile rigs in both cars and she were to get her amateur license (which isn't going to happen, but used for illustration of my question), whose station is it if she operates mobile?

Obviously, she'd be limited to the privileges of her license class... that's not what I'm asking.

WA9SVD

07-03-2007, 08:53 PM

Quote[/b] (KE4UWL @ July 03 2007,13:22)]Here's a fun one for you... regarding which "station" license would have to be used..

Both our cars are in my name (due to the wife having not changed her NC driver's license back to GA when it was time to re-register the cars in GA)...

So, if I put mobile rigs in both cars and she were to get her amateur license (which isn't going to happen, but used for illustration of my question), whose station is it if she operates mobile?

Obviously, she'd be limited to the privileges of her license class... that's not what I'm asking.
Unless you are in the vehicle with her, and agree to be control operator (unnecessary if she were operating under her own privileges) she would use HER privileges alone, AND her own call. The owner of the vehicle is immaterial.)
===============================

Ed: The (current) rules say if a higher class licensee operates the station of another with lesser privileges, there are two options:

1. The higher class licensee merely operate under his/her own call.

2. The higher class licensee can use the other person's station, and sign that person's call-slash-their call, to indicate they are operating the station of another person, but are functioning as the control op, and using their higher privileges. THAT would also allow third party participation in many cases, as long as 3 Party comms are allowed with the other station. Probably not too common, but I could conceivably see it as allowing the lower class licensee contact DX, etc. on frequencies for which they have no privileges. It's NOT a "family type" license situation, because the higher class licnesed person would STILL have to be present and functioning as control operator, but the operations would be under the station license of the lower license class person. THAT's the way I see §97.119(e.)
(And of course, such operation of a station under the control of another person's privileges would have to be documented in the station's records, which is a dirty three letter word to many, starting with an "L" and ending in "og".)

ab8yy

07-03-2007, 09:21 PM

Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ July 03 2007,09:03)]Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ July 03 2007,08:00)]Ed,

# #It would still be considered third party, and the fellow would have to be present as the control operator, but she (or he) could sign with her call/his call, and use the higher priveleges. #§Part 97.119(e) #Third party restrictions would apply to her, of course, so DX would be limited.
I don't see how her callsign could be valid on a frequency she is not licensed for. #On that frequency, she isn't a ham!

Ah, but the 'rules is the rules.' #

I can see, however, if she wants to sign her own call #(slant) the valid call, which is her hubby's. #She could sign "Barbara/slant/K4 whatever." #Equally valid. # What I am saying is her call sign means nothing at all used in that manner, except perhaps bragging rights, to say "See? #I really am a ham.") # It is not a "legal ID." #So I can see why it is permitted, since the legal ID is the call sign of the control op, and the other could be anything at all. #"Snoopy/slant/K6xxx" would be equally valid, no?

If she signs her call sign only, #(which I admit we are not discussing here) doesn't matter if #Barry Goldwater is control op, she would not be #-- in my OT opinion- operating legally. #If she signs her Tech call/slant/Extra call, she really isn't IDing anyway except under the Extra call sign. #

Certainly it is much easier today to do control op thingies than it used to be. #I guess that's a good thing, Martha.

I saw over on another site a year ago where someone is suggesting we have "family licenses." #One call sign fits all. #

Didn't we do that on Class D?

Anyway, I still think she is operating as a non-ham, just as ANY third person would be, under the circumstances, and therefore doesn't need a call sign except the one of the control op. #In other words, she has absolutely ZERO amateur privileges, not an ounce more than a non-ham, when operating as described in the original post. #THAT is my point. #She could do identically the same thing if she had never heard of ham radio. #No license required. #So it is still just "bragging rights." # I don't disagree with that. #She should be proud to be a ham. #However, nowadays, she should get that General ticket this week. #No reason not to.

Cornfussin' #-- but

Ed
Ed, I agree with you as well as the others. And no I would never allow nor would she ever ask to use the radios outside her license class unless I was present.

As for why doesn't she just go get her general - easy - I believe she needs to be a tech for at least a year to learn the ins and outs before getting upgraded. Then she will have a better understanding of what this is all about. I think this should be a rule and I think everyone should do this. It ONLY helps the hobby as a whole by going thru the ranks slowly and deliberately. Learning each class and operations as you go. It only makes for better operators in my opinion.

I was just asking in relationship to the call sign deal. I think using her call slash my call is a proper ID since anyone looking up my call could easily mistake her for a bootlegger and we don't need any more of that crap than we already have on the the bands. At least IDing in this manner will allow other operators to know that she is in fact legal on the band she may be heard on by way of the extra control op even though her class is tech - I think it solves some possible issues if the wrong person hears her.

Thanks for all the comments.

Steve

KC9JUB

07-03-2007, 09:27 PM

Quote[/b] (KE4UWL @ July 02 2007,15:22)]Here's a fun one for you... regarding which "station" license would have to be used..

Both our cars are in my name (due to the wife having not changed her NC driver's license back to GA when it was time to re-register the cars in GA)...

So, if I put mobile rigs in both cars and she were to get her amateur license (which isn't going to happen, but used for illustration of my question), whose station is it if she operates mobile?

Obviously, she'd be limited to the privileges of her license class... that's not what I'm asking.
It would be whatever you wanted it to be. Obviously it would easier for her to use her call sign, instead of yours/hers. It doesn't really matter whose name is on the car. But, it could also be done the harder way.

I have the same situation with a couple of identical HTs and an HF transceiver. XYL and I use the HTs interchangeably, and she could use the HF transceiver on appropriate frequencies/modes as a Technician. If she did, she would use her own call and be control operator, just as she does with either of the HTs. If she were use the HF outside of Technician privileges, it would be 3rd party, with me there as control operator.

73,

Bob - KC9JUB

kn4ds

07-03-2007, 09:30 PM

Quote[/b] (KC9JUB @ July 03 2007,16:27)]Quote[/b] (KE4UWL @ July 02 2007,15:22)]Here's a fun one for you... regarding which "station" license would have to be used..

Both our cars are in my name (due to the wife having not changed her NC driver's license back to GA when it was time to re-register the cars in GA)...

So, if I put mobile rigs in both cars and she were to get her amateur license (which isn't going to happen, but used for illustration of my question), whose station is it if she operates mobile?

Obviously, she'd be limited to the privileges of her license class... that's not what I'm asking.
It would be whatever you wanted it to be. Obviously it would easier for her to use her call sign, instead of yours/hers. It doesn't really matter whose name is on the car. But, it could also be done the harder way.

I have the same situation with a couple of identical HTs and an HF transceiver. XYL and I use the HTs interchangeably, and she could use the HF transceiver on appropriate frequencies/modes as a Technician. If she did, she would use her own call and be control operator, just as she does with either of the HTs. If she were use the HF outside of Technician privileges, it would be 3rd party, with me there as control operator.

73,

Bob - KC9JUB
Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it... the confusion comes in the rules about identifying when you're operating another's station... you need to define "another's station."

If it's in my house or my car, and my spouse is licensed, seems to me it's my station when I'm operating it and hers when she's operating it.

W5HTW

07-04-2007, 12:23 AM

Good discussion, certainly. And we are not the first to have had it.

Here's my basic take. She gains NO additional privileges over a non-ham, while operating under a third party rule. None at all. If my non-ham wife operates my station with me as control operator, the only difference between that, and the case cited here is, uh, well, nothing at all. No difference.

That's the only point I am trying to make.

Now as to who owns the station in each of the cars, that has become confusing over the years since we no longer specify "station licenses" as separate from "operator licenses." They are different, but the license makes no distinction.

So here's some confusion! Suppose my licensed wife, of General or high class, is driving my car, which has an HF radio in it. Suppose I am driving my truck, which has an HF radio in it. Whose calls do we use? Hers and mine? Mine alone for both vehicles? Hers alone for both vehicles?

The common sense answer is she uses hers, I use mine, certainly.

The rules have become quite flexible from what they were in the 50s and 60s, but back then a "station license" was issued, making it very clear what the call sign for a specific station would be. In fact, during World War II, operator-only licenses, with no call sign at all, were issued!

We won't go over the old time rules here, as they are no longer applicable anyway. But today, if operating above your license privileges, using your own call sign would appear to me to be invalid. It would 'sound like' you were operating a station outside your privileges, and if you used ONLY your own call sign, even though a higher class of control operator were present, it would be misleading, and likely illegal. It would certain draw fire on the air. Which again brings us to the point, that call sign has no validity when used outside its operating privileges.

It would NOT be wrong, neither legally, nor ethically, though, to sign the (call)/(call) as indicated in the initial post. It simply would serve no purpose I can see. Except to feel good.

Ed

kn4ds

07-04-2007, 12:53 AM

Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ July 03 2007,19:23)]Good discussion, certainly. And we are not the first to have had it.
Now that we've pretty much covered that ground, let's do this one... suppose I head over to my friend's house, and he's a General... and we've got the radio tuned to the General portion of 40m... say, 7195...

My friend steps out to the kitchen to bring us both another cuppa... or what have you...

It's his station, so if I pick up the mic and answer a CQ while he's off at the other end of the house (or in the house, I know not all shacks are actually in the house!), I need to ID with just his call... right? I'm technically operating someone else's station.. but I'm the control operator, since my license says Extra on it, I'm certainly within my privileges on 7195.

Now, just for grins, I spin the dial down below 7175, to 7150, and I hear another CQ, so I answer that... obviously my friend can't operate there, but I can. According to 97.119(e), I need to use his call... and then mine:

Quote[/b] ](e) When the operator license class held by the control operator exceeds that of the station licensee, an indicator consisting of the call sign assigned to the control operator's station must be included after the call sign.

But as has been pointed out, my license is a station license *and* operator license, and the station location isn't specified on that license... so no matter where I am, nor what equipment I'm operating, nor who owns it, doesn't my station license cover it?

KC9JUB

07-04-2007, 02:25 AM

Quote[/b] (KE4UWL @ July 02 2007,19:53)]Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ July 03 2007,19:23)]Good discussion, certainly. #And we are not the first to have had it.
Now that we've pretty much covered that ground, let's do this one... suppose I head over to my friend's house, and he's a General... and we've got the radio tuned to the General portion of 40m... say, 7195...

My friend steps out to the kitchen to bring us both another cuppa... or what have you...

It's his station, so if I pick up the mic and answer a CQ while he's off at the other end of the house (or in the house, I know not all shacks are actually in the house!), I need to ID with just his call... right? #I'm technically operating someone else's station.. but I'm the control operator, since my license says Extra on it, I'm certainly within my privileges on 7195. #

Now, just for grins, I spin the dial down below 7175, to 7150, and I hear another CQ, so I answer that... #obviously my friend can't operate there, but I can. #According to 97.119(e), I need to use his call... and then mine:

Quote[/b] ](e) When the operator license class held by the control operator exceeds that of the station licensee, an indicator consisting of the call sign assigned to the control operator's station must be included after the call sign.

But as has been pointed out, my license is a station license #*and* operator license, and the station location isn't specified on that license... so no matter where I am, nor what equipment I'm operating, nor who owns it, doesn't my station license cover it?
In the case you described, you use his call when exercising privileges that you both have, and his call/your call when exercising privileges that you have and he doesn't, so he doesn't get busted for exceeding privileges. #You are both responsible for the operation of his station.

However, he could expressly "lend" you his station (briefly or not-so-briefly), and you could use your call and all your privileges. #You alone are then responsible for the operation of your station.

The rules are a little grey, and they don't seem to address actual ownership or location of the equipment (as they once did). Rather they address licensees and control operators.

73,

Bob - KC9JUB

WA9SVD

07-04-2007, 02:41 AM

If you are a General, and respond to a call on a General frequency, you have two options, under current FCC rules.

1. You can respond with your own call, assuming you are a General or higher.
2. You MAY respond with his call / your call. While there's no definite advantage, tou could get him a DX contact he might have missed himself. It does NOT matter what class he holds if you give both calls; by doing so, you are indicating YOU are the control operator, regardless of who is at the mike. But if HE were at the mic instead, you would have to abide by third party regulations.

The rules really aren't gray. They DO give you the choice of using your call, even if you both hold the same class license. In fact, if you both hold the same class license, you COULD technically use his call without giving yours, assuming he has given you permission to operate his station. (Club operation is similar; you CAN use the club call, but only within your own privileges unless there's a higher class operator present and willing to be the control operator. (There HAVE been times in our club station that I have asked other operators (Techs or Generals) to stay within their own license class privileges.)

WA9SVD

07-04-2007, 02:57 AM

Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ July 03 2007,17:23)]It would NOT be wrong, neither legally, nor ethically, though, to sign the (call)/(call) as indicated in the initial post. It simply would serve no purpose I can see. Except to feel good.

Ed
Ed,
I agree 99.44%. The only advantage I could see with actually signing her call/his call would be if some sort of contest or award were involved; such an ID would make a contact outside her privileges a legitimate contact, albeit one under the control of another operator. But it WOULD still indicate a contact made from her station. I believe that would be accepted for most contests and awards, as long as third party rules are followed if necessary.

kn4ds

07-04-2007, 03:25 AM

Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ July 03 2007,21:41)]If you are a General, and respond to a call on a General frequency, you have two options, under current FCC rules.

1. You can respond with your own call, assuming you are a General or higher.
2. You MAY respond with his call / your call. While there's no definite advantage, tou could get him a DX contact he might have missed himself. It does NOT matter what class he holds if you give both calls; by doing so, you are indicating YOU are the control operator, regardless of who is at the mike. But if HE were at the mic instead, you would have to abide by third party regulations.

The rules really aren't gray. They DO give you the choice of using your call, even if you both hold the same class license. In fact, if you both hold the same class license, you COULD technically use his call without giving yours, assuming he has given you permission to operate his station. (Club operation is similar; you CAN use the club call, but only within your own privileges unless there's a higher class operator present and willing to be the control operator. (There HAVE been times in our club station that I have asked other operators (Techs or Generals) to stay within their own license class privileges.)
My point is that since station licenses are effectively granted to the operator, as an Extra, I can operate any station on all bands, all modes, using my "station" license regardless of the "legal ownership" of the actual equipment.

I don't mean things like a rare DX. I refer simply to everyday operation.

ka5piu

07-04-2007, 06:19 AM

Hello.

OK, time to throw an exception into the mix.
For years I operated on 440 as a military primary user, but with a novice ticket.
Now I have a general.
I can legally operate as a military user and/or Amateur radio user.
There is no such thing as a tactical military license, only the tactical ID.
So, what is the correct protocol for this situation.
The answer from the FCC may come as a surprise.

WA9SVD

07-04-2007, 06:43 AM

Quote[/b] (ka5piu @ July 03 2007,23:19)]Hello.

OK, time to throw an exception into the mix.
For years I operated on 440 as a military primary user, but with a novice ticket.
Now I have a general.
I can legally operate as a military user and/or Amateur radio user.
There is no such thing as a tactical military license, only the tactical ID.
So, what is the correct protocol for this situation.
The answer from the FCC may come as a surprise.
Your Novice ticket, or any other Amateur Ticket had no bearing on your activity if it took place under government authorization as a military user.
You are throwing in a red herring.
It was NOT an Amateur Radio operation, and not governed by the FCC.

With a Novice ticket, you could NOT operate under your Amateur license on 70 cm.

You are trying to mix two seperate services; the FCC doesn't even have authority over military use of frequencies.

WA9SVD

07-04-2007, 06:50 AM

Quote[/b] (KE4UWL @ July 03 2007,20:25)]My point is that since station licenses are effectively granted to the operator, as an Extra, I can operate any station on all bands, all modes, using my "station" license regardless of the "legal ownership" of the actual equipment.

I don't mean things like a rare DX. I refer simply to everyday operation.
Well, as the rules stand now, you are correct, and that's all that really matters. (Rules WERE different in the past, however.)
The only caveats are that the owner of a station is supposed to grant permission for you to use their equipment, but then again, that would really only apply if your were ID'ing with theircall/yourcall for whatever reason. In THAT case, your use of the station is supposed to be reflected in that stations records. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

It really doesn't matter about everyday operation vs. DX I'm not sure why you think that makes a difference?

ab8yy

07-04-2007, 07:30 AM

Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ July 03 2007,19:43)]Quote[/b] (ka5piu @ July 03 2007,23:19)]Hello.

OK, time to throw an exception into the mix.
For years I operated on 440 as a military primary user, but with a novice ticket.
Now I have a general.
I can legally operate as a military user and/or Amateur radio user.
There is no such thing as a tactical military license, only the tactical ID.
So, what is the correct protocol for this situation.
The answer from the FCC may come as a surprise.
Your Novice ticket, or any other Amateur Ticket had no bearing on your activity if it took place under government authorization as a military user.
# #You are throwing in a red herring.
#It was NOT an Amateur Radio operation, and not governed by the FCC.

With a Novice ticket, you could NOT operate under your Amateur license on 70 cm.

# #You are trying to mix two seperate services; the FCC doesn't even have authority over military use of frequencies.
Just ignore PIU he does this all the time - and has no clue what he's talking about in most cases.

Steve

kn4ds

07-04-2007, 02:07 PM

Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ July 04 2007,01:50)]Well, as the rules stand now, you are correct, and that's all that really matters. (Rules WERE different in the past, however.)

The only caveats are that the owner of a station is supposed to grant permission for you to use their equipment, but then again, that would really only apply if your were ID'ing with theircall/yourcall for whatever reason. In THAT case, your use of the station is supposed to be reflected in that stations records. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

It really doesn't matter about everyday operation vs. DX I'm not sure why you think that makes a difference?
I realize the rules used to be different, and the primary station license was actually specified as the licensee's address or where the station license was posted.

As far as permission, I couldn't imagine I'd operate someone else's station without their permission. For that matter, this whole discussion is pretty much academic, because aside from Field Day, I don't generally find myself in front of someone else's rig.

I mention the DX bit because others have suggested it could be helpful to the station owner in case of snagging a rare DX. I'm not up on all the ins and outs of DX verification, since I don't chase DX and haven't found myself operating any station but my own (again, aside from Field Day, under a club call), so I really don't know if signing both calls would count for the station owner.

WA9SVD

07-04-2007, 02:27 PM

Quote[/b] (KE4UWL @ July 04 2007,07:07)]Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ July 04 2007,01:50)]Well, as the rules stand now, you are correct, and that's all that really matters. (Rules WERE different in the past, however.)

The only caveats are that the owner of a station is supposed to grant permission for you to use their equipment, but then again, that would really only apply if your were ID'ing with theircall/yourcall for whatever reason. In THAT case, your use of the station is supposed to be reflected in that stations records. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

It really doesn't matter about everyday operation vs. DX I'm not sure why you think that makes a difference?
I realize the rules used to be different, and the primary station license was actually specified as the licensee's address or where the station license was posted.

As far as permission, I couldn't imagine I'd operate someone else's station without their permission. For that matter, this whole discussion is pretty much academic, because aside from Field Day, I don't generally find myself in front of someone else's rig.

I mention the DX bit because others have suggested it could be helpful to the station owner in case of snagging a rare DX. I'm not up on all the ins and outs of DX verification, since I don't chase DX and haven't found myself operating any station but my own (again, aside from Field Day, under a club call), so I really don't know if signing both calls would count for the station owner.
Well, I'm sure the rules for various awards and contests differ, but my understanding, as pretty much a (not so) innocent bystander, is that the dual call ID could give credit for thr STATION, as the dual call ID is identifying the STATION, and then the actual control operator under whose privileges the contact was made.
I agree, it's probably an uncommon occurence.
The "permission" part is mostly a formality, but surely should be secured if you (as control op) are using the station of another person and using the dual call as ID, since in that case, you are both responsible for proper operation of the equipment..

NY7Q

07-04-2007, 02:37 PM

As always, Ed is 99.9% correct
You are control operator at your station
Anyone can use the equipment on air ONLY WHEN YOU ARE PRESENT
She uses your call
For further priveleges I recommend she test for them

ka5piu

07-04-2007, 04:06 PM

Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ July 03 2007,23:43)]Quote[/b] (ka5piu @ July 03 2007,23:19)]Hello.

OK, time to throw an exception into the mix.
For years I operated on 440 as a military primary user, but with a novice ticket.
Now I have a general.
I can legally operate as a military user and/or Amateur radio user.
There is no such thing as a tactical military license, only the tactical ID.
So, what is the correct protocol for this situation.
The answer from the FCC may come as a surprise.
Your Novice ticket, or any other Amateur Ticket had no bearing on your activity if it took place under government authorization as a military user.
# #You are throwing in a red herring.
#It was NOT an Amateur Radio operation, and not governed by the FCC.

With a Novice ticket, you could NOT operate under your Amateur license on 70 cm.

# #You are trying to mix two seperate services; the FCC doesn't even have authority over military use of frequencies.
Hello.

That is the correct answer.
I upgraded due to the fact that some hams had issues with my 440 operations, 70cm TV and telemetry.
I just went to digital fast scan TV, (not HDTV).
Now everything is encrypted, even the voice channels.
The goal is to produce a small helmet mounted camera system that can send and receive live video under the most adverse of conditions.
Everything from a motorcycle to a glider to an automobile, in an urban setting.
True, the satellite based systems do work, sort of.
One needs a line of sight to the bird and can not move quickly and the equipment is heavy and expensive and there are only a limited number of channels available on any satellites.
Most users do not need large area coverage, just the immediate area.
This is a simple and cheap solution.

WA9SVD

07-04-2007, 06:59 PM

Quote[/b] (NY7Q @ July 04 2007,07:37)]As always, Ed is 99.9% correct
You are control operator at your station
Anyone can use the equipment on air ONLY WHEN YOU ARE PRESENT
She uses your call
For further priveleges I recommend she test for them
Well, not exactly. NOT as the current rules state.

If another operator wishes to use your station's equipment, ther CURRENT rules (not those of yesteryear, even though we grew up with those rules) allow another operator to use the equipment under THEIR callsign, within their own privileges. (Thus, I could visit any Amateur station, and with the owner's permission for USE OF THE EQUIPMENT, not the station callsign, I COULD legally operate as WA9SVD. An indicator might be courteous, but NOT required.)
It does NOT matter whether or not the actual owner or station licensee or operator is present or not; otherwise club stations would also be illegal if the trustee were not present.

A non-licensed or under-licensesd individual could participate in operations on any or all frequencies/modes authorized to the control operator present, subject only to third party restrictions. (Currently, restrictions in most situations only apply to International communications.) A non-licensed or under licensed person can participate in communications occuring on Extra frequencies, provided an Extra Class Operator is present at the operating position and supervising the operation. In that event, again, the ID has two options:

1. ID with the control operator's callsign, which (in this example) is an Extra Class.
2. Sign with the station call/control op's call: N1NNY/WA9SVD.

THAT indicates that station N1NNY is operating under the control op's supervision and privileges of WA9SVD.
If operating under Extra privileges with an Extra present as control operator, it would NOT be legal to just sign as N1NNY.

But in your reply, I'm sorry to say, you are incorrect. ANYONE can be control operator of any station, according to current rules. I CAN go into a Tech's station and (technically, with permission) legally operate on 20 Meter sideband, and I would be the control operator. I would have to either sign my own call, or HIS call/MY CALL to be legal.

In most cases, it may be more convenient or easier to just use my call, but the option IS there.

Your statement "Anyone can use the equipment on air ONLY WHEN YOU ARE PRESENT" would only apply to unlicnesed persons or under-licensed individuals who want to operate above their privileges.
In fact, a Tech could visit an Extra's station, and operate to his/her content on 6 Meters or 2 meters, without the Extra being present, and could sign either the Extra's call (assuming he/she had permission to use the call) or the Tech could use their own call. The dual call wouldn't even be necessary as long as the Tech stayed within Tech privileges.

ab8yy

07-04-2007, 11:38 PM

Quote[/b] (ka5piu @ July 04 2007,05:06)]Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ July 03 2007,23:43)]Quote[/b] (ka5piu @ July 03 2007,23:19)]Hello.

OK, time to throw an exception into the mix.
For years I operated on 440 as a military primary user, but with a novice ticket.
Now I have a general.
I can legally operate as a military user and/or Amateur radio user.
There is no such thing as a tactical military license, only the tactical ID.
So, what is the correct protocol for this situation.
The answer from the FCC may come as a surprise.
Your Novice ticket, or any other Amateur Ticket had no bearing on your activity if it took place under government authorization as a military user.
# #You are throwing in a red herring.
#It was NOT an Amateur Radio operation, and not governed by the FCC.

With a Novice ticket, you could NOT operate under your Amateur license on 70 cm.

# #You are trying to mix two seperate services; the FCC doesn't even have authority over military use of frequencies.
Hello.

That is the correct answer.
I upgraded due to the fact that some hams had issues with my 440 operations, 70cm TV and telemetry.
I just went to digital fast scan TV, (not HDTV).
Now everything is encrypted, even the voice channels.
The goal is to produce a small helmet mounted camera system that can send and receive live video under the most adverse of conditions.
Everything from a motorcycle to a glider to an automobile, in an urban setting.
True, the satellite based systems do work, sort of.
One needs a line of sight to the bird and can not move quickly and the equipment is heavy and expensive and there are only a limited number of channels available on any satellites.
Most users do not need large area coverage, just the immediate area.
This is a simple and cheap solution.
Honestly, if you were operating 70 cm ATV under a Novice license then you were operating illegally. I'm not sure that this falls under military operations. I don't recall any military assignments which would require operating 70 cm fast scan television. I believe you felt that since you had a military call - you were able to do whatever you wanted to on the amateur bands - this is not correct and you SHOULD have upgraded in order to perform those modes.

And to NY7Q - there was no questions about extra operating priveledges nor contesting either for that matter. She will upgrade when she is confortable with the operations she is licensed for at the moment. It was a question concerning how she should ID if I happen to hear someone that she might enjoy having a short QSO with. That isn't exactly the same thing as constant operations. And I think we have figured out the proper proceedure here. She will ID as KD8GJI/AB8YY. This will show me as the control operator and still show her as the operator. I know what happens when someone hears a station on the air and they look up the call and discover this can't possible be the person at the mike. Next thing there is either avoidance of the call completely or static about bootleggers again. When this just isn't the case.

Obviously we BOTH know that she cannot speak on the radio without my being there with her. We also know that her callsign doesn't mean a hill of beans in this case - other than to prevent anyone from mistaking the identity of the person on the air AND the station being operated. I am fully responsible for the operation of the station and she is talking as a third-party. This is clear and understood.

I didn't mean to get anything started here with this topic. I think everyone gave good information and each had their own take on the situation. Everyone seems to agree that this would be a third-party situation (meaning some countries cannot be talked to), that her call doesn't mean anything other than to identify who is actually talking to others, and that I, as the control operator, is completely responsible for the qso.

Thanks to all who replied.

Steve

kn4ds

07-05-2007, 12:36 AM

Quote[/b] (ab8yy @ July 04 2007,18:38)]I didn't mean to get anything started here with this topic.
Don't apologize. A lot of good discussion has been taking place in this thread!

WA0LYK

07-05-2007, 04:30 AM

Ok, I'll throw a few things in here.

97.5 Station license required.
(a) The person having physical control of the station apparatus must have
been granted a station license of the type listed in paragraph (b) of this
section, or hold an unexpired document of the type listed in paragraph ©
of this section, before the station may transmit on any amateur service
frequency from any place that is: ..
(d) A person who has been granted a station license of the type listed in
paragraph (b) of this section, or who holds an unexpired document of the
type listed in paragraph © of this section, is authorized to use in
accordance with the FCC Rules all transmitting apparatus under the
physical control of the station licensee at points where the amateur
service is regulated by the FCC.

This seems to indicate that any amateur may use "transmitting apparatus under the physical control of the station licensee" as their own regardless of "legal ownership". This equipment may be confiscated, borrowed, stolen, etc. There may be criminal/civil penalities for some of these acts, but Part 97 allows you to use the equipment regardless.

Remember, although we have 'combined operator/primary station' licenses, they are two different things. Read the back of your license. Your operator license give you "privileges" while the station license gives you a call sign.

Now take a look at:

97.103 Station licensee responsibilities.
(a) The station licensee is responsible for the proper operation of the station
in accordance with the FCC Rules. When the control operator is a
different amateur operator than the station licensee, both persons are
equally responsible for proper operation of the station.
(b) The station licensee must designate the station control operator. The FCC
will presume that the station licensee is also the control operator, unless
documentation to the contrary is in the station records.

Again, it really doesn't matter who the "legal owner" is, what matters is who the station licensee is that has physical control of the transmitting apparatus. That station licensee must designate a control operator and put into station records who that control operator is or the FCCwill assume that the control operator is also the station licensee. I think this is where the term "permission" comes from.

Now for how to ID:

97.119 Station identification.
(a) Each amateur station, except a space station or telecommand station,
must transmit its assigned call sign on its transmitting channel at the end
of each communication, ...
(e) When the operator license class held by the control operator exceeds
that of the station licensee, an indicator consisting of the call sign
assigned to the control operator’s station must be included after the call
sign.

This is the part that really comes into play here. If the spouse1 is a tech and spouse2 is an extra. There are at least three scenarios.

Spouse1 is the station licensee and designates in the station records that spouse2 is the control operator. Then the ID would be spouse1/spouse2. This would have to occur if spouse1 "held" a qso outside of their privileges or if spouse1 "held" a qso inside of their privileges simply because of the way the station/control operator is designated in the station records and because spouse2's operator class exceeds spouse1's.

Spouse2 is the station licensee and the control operator. Then the ID would be spouse2 only. Spouse1 could "hold" a qso but only as a third party.

Spouse2 is the station licensee and designates in the station records that spouse1 is the control operator. The ID would have to be spouse1. In addition, any transmissions would have to be within spouse1's privileges.

Do I have all this right? I'll be honest, in the third scenario, I couldn't find a rule that outright stated what the ID should be when the control operators license is less than or equal to the station licensee.

Jim
WA0LYK

k0cmh

07-06-2007, 01:44 PM

Very interesting conversation. I find the actual application of the various rules in this area very convoluted.

Examples (assumption that everyone stays within their priveleges):

In a contest or field day location, 4 radios are being used. All "operators" are using one callsign.

A friend with the same privliges I have comes to my house and works some contacts on my station. He uses his or my call? Seems like either way is legal.

I am out of town for an extended period and have a licensed friend "house sit" my place. I believe it is the same as lending him my radio. He could use his call.

I lead my radio to a friend who sets it up at his house. He uses his call sign.

I have a mobile setup and lend my car to another licensed ham for a short trip he wants to make. He uses his call sign.

I lend my HT to a fellow working a community event, at a different location from me, because his batteries died. He uses his call.

The rules are not extremely clear, and I don't think they need to be. As I see it, we are primarily licensed to operate radios, not a specific location like commercial broadcasters are. It seems more important when licenses of different classes are operating from the same equipment. It appears if I am there at my equipment and someone else is using it, then I am responsible, but if I am "lending" my equipment to someone, then they are responsible for the proper operation of it.

WA9SVD

07-06-2007, 04:44 PM

This is the part that really comes into play here. If the spouse1 is a tech and spouse2 is an extra. There are at least three scenarios.

Spouse1 is the station licensee and designates in the station records that spouse2 is the control operator. Then the ID would be spouse1/spouse2. This would have to occur if spouse1 "held" a qso outside of their privileges or if spouse1 "held" a qso inside of their privileges simply because of the way the station/control operator is designated in the station records and because spouse2's operator class exceeds spouse1's.

========================

If both spouses are licensed, either one can be a control operator. So in the original case, the wife has a Tech license, she could work on Tech frequencies and use her call. If she wishes to participate in contacts on the Extra HF frequencies, the husband would have to be present and he would have to be the control operator. It WOULD be legal for either of them to ID as her call/his call, or merely use his call. Obviously, third party restrictions would apply to International contacts.
The husband COULD also operate on the Tech frequencies and use HER call alone; that might be useful or helpful for contests and awards.

K3RRR

07-06-2007, 07:33 PM

I am surprised that in all these replies to the question(s) that nobody brought up the one case when the station lisc is a station lisc and no operator uses their own call. #A club station. A few years ago I was had chance to operate on the Queen Mary, W6RO. #Nobody used their own call sign, we operated at the discretion of the highest lisc in the shack at that time only using W6RO and never used our own call sign. #I did go in when I was the only operator there, so I operated only within my lisc boundries, as W6RO.

bob

WA9SVD

07-06-2007, 10:41 PM

Quote[/b] (K3RRR @ July 06 2007,12:33)]I am surprised that in all these replies to the question(s) that nobody brought up the one case when the station lisc is a station lisc and no operator uses their own call. A club station. A few years ago I was had chance to operate on the Queen Mary, W6RO. Nobody used their own call sign, we operated at the discretion of the highest lisc in the shack at that time only using W6RO and never used our own call sign. I did go in when I was the only operator there, so I operated only within my lisc boundries, as W6RO.

bob
That's right, Bob. A club license carries NO operating privileges; it's solely a station license. While legally you COULD operate a club station using your own call or the club call, W6RO require that W6RO be used at all times. Operation of a club station is always within the operator's class privileges; if a higher license class operator is present and consents to being the control operator, then contacts can be made on the basis of the control operator's privileges.

However, should an operator at W6RO want to receive personal credit or a QSL from another station, they COULD legally sign W6RO/their call.

BTW, were you a regular operator there or a guest operator?

K3RRR

07-06-2007, 10:52 PM

I was a regular for about 4 to 6 months until I moved too far to travel. #It is a great chance to work with great equipment equipment and with some real good operators. #The environment alone is worth the trip, or working with the people there, take you pick. I recommend it for anyone that can travel to Long Beach at least once a month. #You don't have to belong to the club to operate there.

ab8yy

07-07-2007, 03:27 PM

Quote[/b] (WA0LYK @ July 04 2007,17:30)]Ok, I'll throw a few things in here.

97.5 Station license required.
#(a) The person having physical control of the station apparatus must have
# # # #been granted a station license of the type listed in paragraph (b) of this
# # # #section, or hold an unexpired document of the type listed in paragraph ©
# # # #of this section, before the station may transmit on any amateur service
# # # #frequency from any place that is: ..
# (d) A person who has been granted a station license of the type listed in
# # # # paragraph (b) of this section, or who holds an unexpired document of the
# # # # type listed in paragraph © of this section, is authorized to use in
# # # # accordance with the FCC Rules all transmitting apparatus under the
# # # # physical control of the station licensee at points where the amateur
# # # # service is regulated by the FCC.

This seems to indicate that any amateur may use "transmitting apparatus under the physical control of the station licensee" #as their own regardless of "legal ownership". #This equipment may be confiscated, borrowed, stolen, etc. #There may be criminal/civil penalities for some of these acts, but Part 97 allows you to use the equipment regardless.

Remember, although we have 'combined operator/primary station' licenses, they are two different things. #Read the back of your license. #Your operator license give you "privileges" while the station license gives you a call sign. #

Now take a look at:

97.103 Station licensee responsibilities.
# (a) The station licensee is responsible for the proper operation of the station
# # # # in accordance with the FCC Rules. When the control operator is a
# # # # different amateur operator than the station licensee, both persons are
# # # # equally responsible for proper operation of the station.
# (b) The station licensee must designate the station control operator. The FCC
# # # # will presume that the station licensee is also the control operator, unless
# # # # documentation to the contrary is in the station records.

Again, it really doesn't matter who the "legal owner" is, what matters is who the station licensee is that has physical control of the transmitting apparatus. #That station licensee must designate a control operator and put into station records who that control operator is or the FCCwill assume that the control operator is also the station licensee. #I think this is where the term "permission" comes from.

Now for how to ID:

97.119 Station identification.
# (a) Each amateur station, except a space station or telecommand station,
# # # # must transmit its assigned call sign on its transmitting channel at the end
# # # # of each communication, ...
# (e) When the operator license class held by the control operator exceeds
# # # # that of the station licensee, an indicator consisting of the call sign
# # # # assigned to the control operator’s station must be included after the call
# # # # sign.

This is the part that really comes into play here. #If the spouse1 is a tech and spouse2 is an extra. #There are at least three scenarios. #

Spouse1 is the station licensee and designates in the station records that spouse2 is the control operator. #Then the ID would be spouse1/spouse2. #This would have to occur if spouse1 "held" a qso outside of their privileges or if spouse1 "held" a qso inside of their privileges simply because of the way the station/control operator is designated in the station records and because spouse2's operator class exceeds spouse1's.

Spouse2 is the station licensee and the control operator. #Then the ID would be spouse2 only. #Spouse1 could "hold" a qso but only as a third party.

Spouse2 is the station licensee and designates in the station records that spouse1 is the control operator. #The ID would have to be spouse1. #In addition, any transmissions would have to be within spouse1's privileges.

Do I have all this right? #I'll be honest, in the third scenario, I couldn't find a rule that outright stated what the ID should be when the control operators license is less than or equal to the station licensee.

Jim
WA0LYK
If both spouces have the same address listed on the station license, then with each one operating the same equipment within their license class, then at the time of operation, that station would be under that spouse's license and call sign. That's not in dispute here at all and I believe it would be perfectly legal becasue there CAN be more than one operator living at the same physical address. Now, in the case of mobile operation, the spouse in the car/mobile would be the station licensee unless both were present, then whichever one was holding the mic would be the licensee at that time. This is because BOTH spouses actually own the equipment. This would be the case even in the home if both were licensed. The only exception may be in the case where one spouse maybe a Novice licensee, in which case if you had a 440 or 10 meter rig, then the licensee for that particular rig would probably ONLY be the second spouse since the first one can't legally operate it alone based on the station license.

Does that make sense?

It doesn't apply in my original question, but since this has been mentioned and/or commented on - thought I would see if this could be clarified as well. LOL

Steve

ab8yy

07-07-2007, 03:34 PM

A suggestion - but probably not smart to mention it to the FCC or a total rats nest is liable to be opened, but maybe a single station license issued to a family station like a club station. Whereby the household has more than one ham residing there. Then individual operator's licenses for each op in the household. All would use the call sign of the family station/club station and each would be restricted by operators class unless the "trustee" (the one with the highest class) was present in the shack/radio room.

I know, this isn't practical, just an interesting thought.

Steve

WA9SVD

07-09-2007, 12:24 AM

Quote[/b] (ab8yy @ July 07 2007,08:34)]A suggestion - but probably not smart to mention it to the FCC or a total rats nest is liable to be opened, but maybe a single station license issued to a family station like a club station. Whereby the household has more than one ham residing there. Then individual operator's licenses for each op in the household. All would use the call sign of the family station/club station and each would be restricted by operators class unless the "trustee" (the one with the highest class) was present in the shack/radio room.

I know, this isn't practical, just an interesting thought.

Steve
There's no problem with more than one station license being issued to the saem address. The same would have applied even in the "old" days when seperate station/operator licenses were issued.
The issue is being made more complicated than it is.

If both spouses are licensed, then there are two station licenses.Either spouse may use the equipment, and if alone, would normally use their own callsign.
If both spouses are present, then the base callsign depends upon the control operator. If operations occur within the privileges of both operators (such as a Tech and Extra on 6 Meters) then either call may be used. If privielges used are beyond those of one of the ops, the person with the higher license class in the control op, and THAT is the call they would normally use. (But it would not be illegal to sign TechCall/ExtraCall, regardless of who is at the mic; only the Extra can be the control op.)

In the auto, legal ownership of the equipment doesn't matter. The person operating uses their call, and signs /mobile if they wish, but it's not required.
Even if both are in the auto, you would use the callsign of the person operating. If the passenger is using the equipment with the higher license class of the two and operating with those higher class privileges, then the passenger uses the passengers call.

What it all boils down to is that when two operators are involved, the person who is the control operator is the one whose call is used.
If an Extra is in the passenger and a Tech is driving, and talking on 2 Meters, it's OK for the Tech to use the Tech's call, because the tech is authorized to be control operator. Drop to 20 Meters, and the passenger becomes the control op, and the driver is a third party participant, and third party rules apply.

There's no need to come up with any sort of "family station" license.
And your reference to a "trustee" is incorrect. A "trustee" of a station (such as a club) confers NO privileges onto a station. A trustee may be anyone who holds a Tech or higher license, but a trustee who is a Tech would not be able to grant higher privileges onto another family member under your scenario.