Air Mobile

[A71AN]

Long time back I heard from some friend, that they some times getting permission from the pilot of the planes they are traveling on to use the HF radio of the plane.

Today more restrictions are there because of the safety procedures on international flights but are there any rules to regulate this issue, should the Ham radio operators be allowed to call or contact dx stations from the planes?

[kl7aj]

There is no general restriction against it in the U.S., except on commercial airliners. I've worked a few aeronautical mobiles in my long ham career. The FCC generally wouldn't care, but the FAA might (or your country's equivalent entities.)

eric

[kl7aj]

http://www.qsl.net/we1fly/U.S. aeronautical mobile (http://www.qsl.net/we1fly/)

[K0RGR]

Last time I looked, it's up to the pilot in command.

There are airline pilots who get on the air from the cockpit from time to time. Since aircraft operating at the altitudes they use are all IFR, and part 91 generally excludes operation on IFR aircraft, the pilot is probably taking a bit of a risk if he overrides that basic restriction.

I used to work 2 meters when we were operating VFR in low traffic areas. I was a member of the H.A.P.P.Y. Flyers - 'Hams and Pilots Piloting and Yacking'. The biggest thing I ever flew was a Grumman Tiger.

If you want to try VHF from 14,000 feet, Pikes Peak is available and access is very cheap. My dad worked Texas from there on 5 meters back in the 30's.

[wc5cw]

A71AN, et al...

Hmmm...Is this not an issue decided by individual licensing administrations and/or aviation agencies responsible for administering their airspace rules?

Some years ago while listening in on a 75m SSB net I heard a station check-in with a strong, commanding signal here in Houston...The operator related that he was running a KWM-2A from an aircraft approaching Houston...I remember well his last, brief transmission, saying he would have to "sign" as he needed to prepare for landing.

Bruce
WC5CW

[WD4SCZ]

The decision to allow operation of radios in the airplane rests with the pilot in command. Generally, that means air carriers operating under FAR Parts 121 or 135 will say no. This is simply because the stricter rules for carrying persons or property for hire require it. Under part 91, or general aviation the restriction applies to IFR operations in that the PIC needs to be sure operation won't interfere with aircraft navigation. There are many pilots who are also hams and operate aeronautical mobile. I know one who used to operate slow scan TV from a Cherokee 140 over Kentucky. You can work some pretty good DX with a 2 meter HT in a Cessna 150 at 12,500 MSL

[kc2ten]

I asked our FCC this question a few months ago and, though I do not have the reply email handy, I do recall them saying that it was OK, in my situation.

1: Since I fly in USAF aircraft, I just need the aircraft commander's permission, which is easy to get since I sit behind him or her.

2: And using one of the plane's HF radios is ok as well.

I have made a few contacts while flying over the ocean, one trip ended up resulting in quite the pile up. It was almost overwhelming for me since it was the second time I'd done it and the second time I'd used my newly minted general callsign on HF.

[A71AN]

Number of time I did hear a Kuwaiti pilot on hf, working with other dx stations and he was using airmobile stroke plus his call sign.

I do a lot of long distant traveling and it will be a great experience if that was possible for me to operate air mobile from the plan I fly on.

This time I will try to give the pilot my card and seek his permission to use his hf, may be he would, specially by traveling first class, if not then trying is of no much damage.

I also had a friend pilot on Alia Jordian Air Line; he was using hf and calling dx.

73

[ka5piu]

Hello.

The Amateur Radio rules do not allow one to use the aircraft radio in the Amateur bands.
"§97.11 Stations aboard ships or aircraft.
(a) The installation and operation of an amateur station on a ship or aircraft must be approved by the master of the ship or pilot in command of the aircraft.

(b) The station must be separate from and independent of all other radio apparatus installed on the ship or aircraft, except a common antenna may be shared with a voluntary ship radio installation. The station's transmissions must not cause interference to any other apparatus installed on the ship or aircraft.

© The station must not constitute a hazard to the safety of life or property. For a station aboard an aircraft, the apparatus shall not be operated while the aircraft is operating under Instrument Flight Rules, as defined by the FAA, unless the station has been found to comply with all applicable FAA Rules".

I was told that a ham rig can not even go thru the audio panel, as the ham rig has no TSO and "The station must be separate from and independent of all other radio apparatus installed on the ship or aircraft".
So, a talkie connected with a BNC to an independent antenna is fine but can not be operated under IFR rules.
It can take power from the aircraft provided it is not on the essential or emergency power bus.
I have already been warned about this, a little incident in Houston.

[A71AN]

Quote[/b] (ka5piu @ July 02 2007,23:39)]Hello.

The Amateur Radio rules do not allow one to use the aircraft radio in the Amateur bands.
"§97.11 Stations aboard ships or aircraft.
(a) The installation and operation of an amateur station on a ship or aircraft must be approved by the master of the ship or pilot in command of the aircraft.

(b) The station must be separate from and independent of all other radio apparatus installed on the ship or aircraft, except a common antenna may be shared with a voluntary ship radio installation. The station's transmissions must not cause interference to any other apparatus installed on the ship or aircraft.

© The station must not constitute a hazard to the safety of life or property. For a station aboard an aircraft, the apparatus shall not be operated while the aircraft is operating under Instrument Flight Rules, as defined by the FAA, unless the station has been found to comply with all applicable FAA Rules".

I was told that a ham rig can not even go thru the audio panel, as the ham rig has no TSO and "The station must be separate from and independent of all other radio apparatus installed on the ship or aircraft".
So, a talkie connected with a BNC to an independent antenna is fine but can not be operated under IFR rules.
It can take power from the aircraft provided it is not on the essential or emergency power bus.
I have already been warned about this, a little incident in Houston.
Thank you a lot, this is very useful guide lines, of course safety of personnel and the plane carrying them comes first.

73

[N2RJ]

Amateur radio on aircraft is completely dependent on the country in which the aircraft is registered, and also within whose airspace the aircraft is flying.

In the USA it is allowed.

In Great Britain, I know for a fact that it is NOT allowed.

I suspect it may be the same in Qatar (not allowed), but you have to check with your local authorities.

Having been taught that "amateur radio is not allowed in an aircraft" when I was first licensed, I was surprised to learn when I moved to the states that American hams could operate Aeronautical mobile.

[A71AN]

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ July 03 2007,06:31)]Amateur radio on aircraft is completely dependent on the country in which the aircraft is registered, and also within whose airspace the aircraft is flying.

In the USA it is allowed.

In Great Britain, I know for a fact that it is NOT allowed.

I suspect it may be the same in Qatar (not allowed), but you have to check with your local authorities.

Having been taught that "amateur radio is not allowed in an aircraft" when I was first licensed, I was surprised to learn when I moved to the states that American hams could operate Aeronautical mobile.
I also asked this afternoon and been told that its all up to the pilot, I know on Gul Air is allowed.

I will check again tomorrow.

My friend thank you a lot, you always been so co-operative and helpful.

73

[N2RJ]

You're welcome.

Part of the problem is that amateur radio regulations vary so much from country to country... It is amazing what rules some countries have!

[A71AN]

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ July 03 2007,08:46)]You're welcome.

Part of the problem is that amateur radio regulations vary so much from country to country... It is amazing what rules some countries have!
I just hope the rules goes for the best, no one need more complications.

73 my friend

[n2cfj]

The second QSO in my log was a cw contact with the RO of an Airforce plane

[wa6itf]

Quote[/b] (a71an @ July 02 2007,15:27)]Long time back I heard from some friend, that they some times getting permission from the pilot of the planes they are traveling on to use the HF radio of the plane.

Today more restrictions are there because of the safety procedures on international flights but are there any rules to regulate this issue, should the Ham radio operators be allowed to call or contact dx stations from the planes?
A very simple, non-complicated answer.

This goes back to when a group of us were VHF contesters from an Aewrocommander twin in the late 1960's. If you are a ham, and if you own the aircraft, and if you are the pilot in command there are no restrictions on you running air mobile either from the FCC or the FAA. The FCC considers mobile operation to be mobile operation without any consideration to whether its on the ground or in the air. The FAA has no recognition in its rules that hams even exist. So if you can safely operate the aircraft and at the same time safely operate your radio, then its your decision to make.

However, if you do not own the aircraft -- say as in renting it from an FBO, the owner can place limitations on what gear you can use in flight. If the FBO says no ham radio -- then its no ham radio.

As to operating on commercial passenger jets? While some hams think the decision is ultimately that of the captain, four of my friends who fly as captains -- or have flown for a living tell me otherwise. It is the airline that sets the policy not the crew. Yes, a captain -- in theory -- can override this policy -- but he/she can also be reprimanded for doing so.

While I have heard "stories" that this airline or that one has permitted a ham -- here or there -- to operate from a passenger jet, those that are real are very few and far in-between. And none have been on U.S. flagged carriers since before 911. (And in the case of Northwest -- about 12 years prior to that after it became the first airline to limit the on-board use of all types of consumer electronic items.) Since 911 I know of no ham who has been allowed to operate off a U.S. flagged carrier.

The main reason for not permitting hams (or anyone else) to use radio gear has to do with EMI compatibility with the aircraft electronics. Not just navigation, but all sorts of systems that are data controlled.

Most modern aircraft starting with the later Boeing 737series, and the 757, 767, 777, 747-400 plus everything from Airbus Industries like the A-318, 319, 321,321, 330, 340, etc., are more like flying electronics labs. Not only in regard to navigation, but in everything from engine speed control (auto throttle), to altritude control, lighting, heating/cooling, breaking after landing (auto breaking) and in some planes from Airbus -- even dedicated lavatory control. While the systems are EMI proffed against "known sources" of possible RF interference, there is no way to make all the various on-board systems fool proof against a stray, on-board RF signal that might hamper proper aircraft operation. So the airlines tend to error on the side of passenger safety and ban the on-board use of certain types of consumer electronics including all ham radio gear. The feeling is its better to be safe now than sorry later. And as one who sits in coach regularly, I totally agree.

de
Bill Pasternak, WA6ITF

[ka5piu]

Hello.

I posed the question to the chief pilot in charge at Saudia airlines.
The answer was yes and no.
One can place a HF radiotelephone call from all aircraft so equipped by making use of the interphone system.
A passenger will not be allowed into the flight deck of the aircraft.
So, the pilot or copilot runs the radio, you get to talk.
The interphone stations have PTT buttons, so that is not an issue.
I totally forgot that the aircraft were equipped that way.
That is how one would place a telephone call before the satellite links, by contacting the high seas operator.
To operate on the Amateur bands would have to be done in somewhat the same manner.
Split is indeed an option, you just have to explain what you need beforehand.
There is no charge to use the radio but there may be a time limit.

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (ka5piu @ July 04 2007,20:01)]Hello.

I posed the question to the chief pilot in charge at Saudia airlines.
The answer was yes and no.
One can place a HF radiotelephone call from all aircraft so equipped by making use of the interphone system.
A passenger will not be allowed into the flight deck of the aircraft.
So, the pilot or copilot runs the radio, you get to talk.
The interphone stations have PTT buttons, so that is not an issue.
I totally forgot that the aircraft were equipped that way.
That is how one would place a telephone call before the satellite links, by contacting the high seas operator.
To operate on the Amateur bands would have to be done in somewhat the same manner.
Split is indeed an option, you just have to explain what you need beforehand.
There is no charge to use the radio but there may be a time limit.
Of course, what might apply to Saudi Airlines applies only to Saudi Airlines, not anywhere else...

On U.S. commercial carriers, or commercial flights originating in the U.S., electronic devices of any type are normally NOT allowed from the time the aircraft leaves the terminal to the time it achieves flight altitude (or similar altitude) and again from the time it begins landing approach to the time it arrives at it's destination terminal.
Electronic devices that actually TRANSMIT are generally totally banned for the duration, as are most receiving devices, such as AM/FM radios, ham H-T's, and even cell phones.
How/why the "in seat" phones operate is immaterial; they are routed and regulated through the aircraft's systems, and have been approved as not causing interference to any of the aircraft's electronics.

Amateur operations would NOT have to be done in ANY "similar manner," at least not on a commercial carrier; transmitting equipment is expressly prohibited, regardless of any alleged "authorization," real or perceived.

But all this is really meaningless. The operation of communications systems on commercial airliners, whether aircraft communications, or that peovided to passengers has absolutely NOTHING to do with Amateur Radio. NOTHING. Nor does it somehow imply an authorization to use Amateur Radio aboard a commercial airliner.


On a privately owned and operated aircraft, then the pilot basically has the say, as long as operations do not interfere with aircraft operations, but FAA regulations would have to be checked for specific regulations and limitations. The FCC basically refers to FAA regulations and pilot permission in such cases, but FAA regulations and restrictions, including those referring to situations in which the aircraft is operating under IFR regulations are not within OUR scope. The FAA regulates aircraft, not the FCC.

[ka5piu]

Hello.

There is no reason that the flight crew can not dial in an Amateur Radio frequency and let you have at it.
The radios will only do AM and USB but will do 2 to 30 MHz and can do a split.
There are 4 HF radios on board the aircraft, 2 are ADF units and 2 are comm units.

[A71AN]

Quote[/b] (ka5piu @ July 07 2007,09:24)]Hello.

There is no reason that the flight crew can not dial in an Amateur Radio frequency and let you have at it.
The radios will only do AM and USB but will do 2 to 30 MHz and can do a split.
There are 4 HF radios on board the aircraft, 2 are ADF units and 2 are comm units.
I will try to request to operate the HF radio on board, if yes, it will be a great experince for me, if no, no harm been made.


Best regards my friend

73

[W0LPQ]

PIU BS.

European radios maybe, but in the US fleet (Boeing) Collins HF does AME/CW/USB/LSB and Data modes and has the capability of doing secure voice. Collins HF is on about 99.9% of the Boeing fleet .. and has been for years.

How do I know ... I have helped check out installations of every damned system type we made.

As a passenger, you CANNOT enter the cockpit in flight on a commercial airplane. FAA says so. Thus, the crew cannot put a radio on an amater freqency and let you talk. It does not work that way. Once on the ground then you can ... at the pilots discretion ... tour the cockpit.

Corporates are different. The majority of them have Collins HF and are much the same capability as airlines, in fact ... usually the same radios.

The late Kim Miles, N9IS was a US Air Captain who flew the A-320/321/322 airplanes. He tried to operate when he could .. usually on 17M ... and USB only on the Airbus birds. Not so for Boeing airplanes. Those radios also would not go to 10M.

[SM0AOM]

Earning part of my living on aeronautical HF, I can provide this information.

If you have the airline's permit to travel in cockpit, and the pilot gives you permission to use the HF radio, there usually are no restrictions to use the radio for amateur radio traffic, as long as it is not required for ATC or company communications.

Normally this is the case when the aircraft is enroute in radar controlled airspace. When flying outside radar controlled airspace, one HF is expected to be tuned to the primary ATC frequency and the other to the secondary frequency.

For this reason, it would be unusual to get the pilot's permission to use an HF radio when flying in oceanic airspace.

Also, there may be airline policies that are more strict.

When making cockpit flights in the 80's and 90's with European airlines that operated HF-equipped aircraft, I had no problems to operate amateur radio using the HF radio equipment.

Today, it may be a major obstacle to obtain a cockpit travel permit from the airline.

On larger aircraft, using the usual ARINC 719 HF equipment, the frequency range usually is 2.8 to 25 MHz in 1 kHz steps, and #"split" is usually not supported, unless a second HF is used as the split receiver.

In the mid-80's a few airlines offered passenger HF calls by extending the aircraft intercom system to selected seat rows and providing a pluggable handset with a PTT control. This was a "mixed success".


73/

Karl-Arne
SM0AOM

[A71AN]

Quote[/b] (W0LPQ @ July 07 2007,09:39)]PIU BS.

European radios maybe, but in the US fleet (Boeing) Collins HF does AME/CW/USB/LSB and Data modes and has the capability of doing secure voice. #Collins HF is on about 99.9% of the Boeing fleet .. and has been for years.

How do I know ... I have helped check out installations of every damned system type we made.

As a passenger, you CANNOT enter the cockpit in flight on a commercial airplane. #FAA says so. Thus, the crew cannot put a radio on an amater freqency and let you talk. It does not work that way. Once on the ground then you can ... at the pilots discretion ... tour the cockpit.

Corporates are different. #The majority of them have Collins HF and are much the same capability as airlines, in fact ... usually the same radios.

The late Kim Miles, N9IS was a US Air Captain who flew the A-320/321/322 airplanes. #He tried to operate when he could .. usually on 17M ... and USB only on the Airbus birds. #Not so for Boeing airplanes. #Those radios also would not go to 10M.
I understand the importance of the rules and regulations, especially when it comes for the safety measures, I have always respect all of that and will always do so.

For the last one month and since I have re-operated my mobile station after a long break, I did hear 2 different call signs operating passengers international air lines planes, also in past I heard many operating commercial air line planes radio, at least on this part of the world. I had a friend who was doing qso with me each time he is on flight.

It is nice and a great experience but not a must at all.

Thank you my friend and I wish you and yours all of the best

73

[A71AN]

Quote[/b] (SM0AOM @ July 07 2007,10:01)]Earning part of my living on aeronautical HF, I can provide this information.

If you have the airline's permit to travel in cockpit, and the pilot gives you permission to use the HF radio, there usually are no restrictions to use the radio for amateur radio traffic, as long as it is not required for ATC or company communications.

Normally this is the case when the aircraft is enroute in radar controlled airspace. When flying outside radar controlled airspace, one HF is expected to be tuned to the primary ATC frequency and the other to the secondary frequency.

For this reason, it would be unusual to get the pilot's permission to use an HF radio when flying in oceanic airspace.

Also, there may be airline policies that are more strict.

When making cockpit flights in the 80's and 90's with European airlines that operated HF-equipped aircraft, I had no problems to operate amateur radio using the HF radio equipment.

Today, it may be a major obstacle to obtain a cockpit travel permit from the airline.

On larger aircraft, using the usual ARINC 719 HF equipment, the frequency range usually is 2.8 to 25 MHz in 1 kHz steps, and #"split" is usually not supported, unless a second HF is used as the split receiver.

In the mid-80's a few airlines offered passenger HF calls by extending the aircraft intercom system to selected seat rows and providing a pluggable handset with a PTT control. This was a "mixed success".


73/

Karl-Arne
SM0AOM
Thank you very much my friend for all of this informations, in this case and for 7 hours flight to Thailand, just I will have the meal in first class capin and go to sleep:)))

Wishing you and yours all of the best my friend

73

[ka5piu]

Hello.

Correct, the aircraft can indeed patch audio around in first class.
To the airline it does not matter if this is high seas or Amateur Radio.
And, as far as Collins goes, I could care less who made the thing as long as it works.
There is no servicing of the radios themselves, they are just boxed up and sent away.

To Address the Collins thing.
The original radio in the Bell 47 was a Collins UHF AM unit.
The actual radio was gutted and a metal panel put in place and 2 modern radios installed in that housing.
All of this was replaced less than a year ago with a glass cockpit + mounts and interface for a talkie.
However, when I got the aircraft it had a box marked Collins, but the insides were outside and now even that is gone.
I did not know the history of that radio but now that it is out of the aircraft it is known as to what happened.