Pledge of Allegiance [Archive]

KB9YCO

06-21-2007, 03:46 PM

I am consistenly amazed by people that believe a pledge is required in order to be a patriotic citizen. (Most school kids that say it probably aren't even paying any attention to the meaning of the words anyway, just repeating them because they are supposed to.)

Either way, a pledge, a flag, or any of the rest of the symbolism is not a requirement for being a good citizen or a patriot. Most of the hype about the whole pledge thing awhile back was BS anyhow, fueld by uber-patriots and religious extremists that think everyone must think exactly what they think or they are somehow not American enough for them. That sort of intolerance doesn't seem very American to me.

Let's also not forget that the original pledge contained no references to America or God. The original pledge, written by socialist Baptist minister Francis Bellamy read as follows:

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

According to Bellamy's relatives the God references were intentionally left out so that it would not be a prayer, but a simple, short, and to the point pledge to the country.

All the other hype is simply that, hype. The pledge was never originally intended to be a requirement or some sort of sacred oath.

The Pledge of Allegiance was written for the popular children's magazine Youth's Companion by socialist author and Baptist minister Francis Bellamy on September 7, 1892. The owners of Youth's Companion were selling flags to schools, and approached Bellamy to write the Pledge for their advertising campaign. It was marketed as a way to celebrate the 400th anniversary of Columbus arriving in the Americas and was first published on the following day. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance)

KI4PJW

06-21-2007, 04:49 PM

Quote[/b] (KB9YCO @ June 20 2007,14:46)]I am consistenly amazed by people that believe a pledge is required in order to be a patriotic citizen. (Most school kids that say it probably aren't even paying any attention to the meaning of the words anyway, just repeating them because they are supposed to.)

Either way, a pledge, a flag, or any of the rest of the symbolism is not a requirement for being a good citizen or a patriot. Most of the hype about the whole pledge thing awhile back was BS anyhow, fueld by uber-patriots and religious extremists that think everyone must think exactly what they think or they are somehow not American enough for them. That sort of intolerance doesn't seem very American to me.

Let's also not forget that the original pledge contained no references to America or God. The original pledge, written by socialist Baptist minister Francis Bellamy read as follows:

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

According to Bellamy's relatives the God references were intentionally left out so that it would not be a prayer, but a simple, short, and to the point pledge to the country.

All the other hype is simply that, hype. The pledge was never originally intended to be a requirement or some sort of sacred oath.

The Pledge of Allegiance was written for the popular children's magazine Youth's Companion by socialist author and Baptist minister Francis Bellamy on September 7, 1892. The owners of Youth's Companion were selling flags to schools, and approached Bellamy to write the Pledge for their advertising campaign. It was marketed as a way to celebrate the 400th anniversary of Columbus arriving in the Americas and was first published on the following day. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance)
ZED'r,

You missed the point.
Do we live in a Republic or a Democracy? What is the difference and why it matters.

KB1KIX

06-21-2007, 04:54 PM

American Heritage Dictionary
(r&#301;-p&#365;b'l&#301;k) Pronunciation Key
n.

A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president.
A nation that has such a political order.
A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.
A nation that has such a political order.

A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.
A nation that has such a political order.
often Republic A specific republican government of a nation: the Fourth Republic of France.
An autonomous or partially autonomous political and territorial unit belonging to a sovereign federation.
A group of people working as equals in the same sphere or field: the republic of letters.

American Heritage Dictionary -

com·mu·nism (k&#335;m'y&#601;-n&#301;z'&#601;m) Pronunciation Key
n.
A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
Communism
A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.

Hmmmm....... under Shrillary, lib house and senate - we are definately the latter.

Though I struggle to see much of a difference now.

Jonathan

KI4PJW

06-21-2007, 05:14 PM

Quote[/b] (KB1KIX @ June 20 2007,15:54)]American Heritage Dictionary
(r&#301;-p&#365;b'l&#301;k) #Pronunciation Key #
n. #

A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president.
A nation that has such a political order.
A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.
A nation that has such a political order.

A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.
A nation that has such a political order.
often Republic A specific republican government of a nation: the Fourth Republic of France.
An autonomous or partially autonomous political and territorial unit belonging to a sovereign federation.
A group of people working as equals in the same sphere or field: the republic of letters. #

American Heritage Dictionary -

com·mu·nism # # # (k&#335;m'y&#601;-n&#301;z'&#601;m) #Pronunciation Key #
n. #
A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
Communism
A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.

Hmmmm....... under Shrillary, lib house and senate - we are definately the latter.

Though I struggle to see much of a difference now.

Jonathan
Johnathon,

Thanks for that. You get it.

W1SMC

06-21-2007, 05:23 PM

Quote[/b] (KB1KIX @ June 21 2007,04:54)]American Heritage Dictionary
(r&#301;-p&#365;b'l&#301;k) Pronunciation Key
n.

A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president.
A nation that has such a political order.
A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.
A nation that has such a political order.

A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.
A nation that has such a political order.
often Republic A specific republican government of a nation: the Fourth Republic of France.
An autonomous or partially autonomous political and territorial unit belonging to a sovereign federation.
A group of people working as equals in the same sphere or field: the republic of letters.

American Heritage Dictionary -

com·mu·nism (k&#335;m'y&#601;-n&#301;z'&#601;m) Pronunciation Key
n.
A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
Communism
A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.

Hmmmm....... under Shrillary, lib house and senate - we are definately the latter.

Though I struggle to see much of a difference now.

Jonathan
Notice the specific language:

collective ownership
organization of labor
plans and controls the economy
make progress to a higher social order
all good equally shared by the people

Hmmm ...

collective, labor, social, shared ...

Sounds to me like just what Hillary has in mind for the good old US of A

w8znx

06-21-2007, 05:34 PM

the founding fathers

did not want a democracy

the founding fathers

set up a constitutionaly limited republic

politicians been using the word
democracy for so many years

people start to think
the United States of America
is a democracy
its not

and hopefuly it will remain
a constitutionaly limited republic

with checks and balances

so the yahoos
don't run the ship aground
every 2 to 4 years

Mac

KC4HGH

06-21-2007, 05:35 PM

Quote[/b] (KI4PJW @ June 21 2007,07:42)]Hello all,

After reading the many posts here on QRZ, I am compelled to pose the following questions.

When saying the pledge, do we pledge our allegiance to the ideal of Democracy or to Republicanism?

Do you know the difference?

Do you care?

Just curious. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
...a sovereign republic with a SOLID Constitution at the head which lays down laws, that left-wingers hate & would like to see torn down & changed to something akin to the U.N. Manifesto....

My country, the United States of America...and if there are those out there that hate it so much, BUT like to live under it's soveregnty, shape up or LEAVE...you can non-pledge your non-loyaly elsewhere!

KC0VWU

06-21-2007, 05:40 PM

The only time this comes up is at sporting events and stuff like that so it really isn't much of an issue for me. However, I do not say the pledge at all nor do I sing the national anthem. Both of them nauseate me.

KI4PJW

06-21-2007, 05:41 PM

Constitutions are utterly worthless to restrain the tyranny of governments, unless it be understood that the people will, by force, compel the government to keep within the constitutional limits.

w5klb

06-21-2007, 05:41 PM

Quote[/b] ]Do we live in a Republic or a Democracy?

Simple answer: We live in a Democratic Republic.

al2n

06-21-2007, 06:49 PM

We are a Republic.

We elect representatives to vote on issues on our behalf.

If this were a Democracy we would have a general vote on every bill that was put forth.

W1GUH

06-21-2007, 08:23 PM

I googled "republic vs democracy" and came up with a few sites that defined the difference.

In my own words, democracy is where the laws are made by the people with no controls, so the majority can vote to kill all of the minority if they want to.

A representative democracy is the same, only the guys who make the laws are elected by the people.

A democratic republic is a representative democracy that's defined by a constitution that spells out the legal powers of the government.

Here's a couple of links with interesting stuff:

One link (http://www.c4cg.org/republic.htm)

Another link (http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/baska01.htm)

The second one has interesting links and quotes from our forefathers.

Wikipedia also has extinsive entries for republic and democracy.

N2RJ

06-21-2007, 08:28 PM

Quote[/b] (KB1KIX @ June 21 2007,11:54)]American Heritage Dictionary -

com·mu·nism (k&#335;m'y&#601;-n&#301;z'&#601;m) Pronunciation Key
n.
A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
Communism
A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.
Hmm, looks to me like an HOA is communism! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

N2RJ

06-21-2007, 08:38 PM

Here are some examples of Republics:

The Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela
The People's Republic of China
German Democratic Republic
Islamic Republic of Iran
French Republic
Democratic People's Republic of Korea
Islamic Republic of Pakistan
Syrian Arab Republic
Socialist Republic of Vietnam

N2RJ

06-21-2007, 08:45 PM

Quote[/b] (W1GUH @ June 21 2007,15:23)]I googled "republic vs democracy" and came up with a few sites that defined the difference.

In my own words, democracy is where the laws are made by the people with no controls, so the majority can vote to kill all of the minority if they want to.

A representative democracy is the same, only the guys who make the laws are elected by the people.

A democratic republic is a representative democracy that's defined by a constitution that spells out the legal powers of the government.

Here's a couple of links with interesting stuff:

One link (http://www.c4cg.org/republic.htm)

Another link (http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/baska01.htm)

The second one has interesting links and quotes from our forefathers.

Wikipedia also has extinsive entries for republic and democracy.
Essentially, the term "Republic" is occasionally bandied around by neocons because they want to imply that their way is the right way and should be the only way, because the USA is a Republic and they are Republicans.

It's hilarious, because the the terms "Republic" and "Democracy" can be applied to the United States.

Neocons like to paint the picture that democracy in the US and those darn democrats in power is going to mean mob rule and communism.

Little do they realize that mob rule is present only in a Direct Democracy. Like there are many types of Republics (as I have listed earlier), there are many types of democracy.

Democracy only means that the people have some say in the running of the country. It does not automatically mean mob rule.

But don't dare confuse neocons with that little fact. They're too busy spreading misinformation and beating their chests.

ka5piu

06-21-2007, 09:16 PM

Hello.

The US is, and was intended to be, a Republic.
The US citizens do not vote for the president, the electorial collage does.
The US citizens do not elect supreme court judges, the president and congress appoints them.
The US citizens do not vote on bills in congress, the house and senate does this.
Clearly everything says Republic.
Now, the people do elect members of congress as well as the governors of the states.
This is the democratic side of things.
And, I lived in a communist country, none of us would be making the cracks against the government in a communist country.
Well, a few, perhaps, but just once.

k6bbc

06-21-2007, 09:35 PM

Apparently, if we are not careful, we will be living in the kingdom of Clinton/Bush.

bbc

N2RJ

06-21-2007, 09:42 PM

Quote[/b] (ka5piu @ June 21 2007,16:16)]Hello.

The US is, and was intended to be, a Republic.
The US citizens do not vote for the president, the electorial collage does.
The US citizens do not elect supreme court judges, the president and congress appoints them.
The US citizens do not vote on bills in congress, the house and senate does this.
Clearly everything says Republic.
Now, the people do elect members of congress as well as the governors of the states.
This is the democratic side of things.
And, I lived in a communist country, none of us would be making the cracks against the government in a communist country.
Well, a few, perhaps, but just once.
The USA is a democracy as well as a republic.

Merriam Webster (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/democracy)

Main Entry: de·moc·ra·cy
1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

The terms "democracy" and "republic" are not mutually exclusive. You can have democracy within a republic.

WA3WDR

06-21-2007, 09:52 PM

"Well Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?" asked Mrs. Powel. #"A republic, madam - if you can keep it!" replied Ben Franklin.

A government of, by and for the People - we are a Democracy. #But a Democracy can degrade to mob rule without some structure. #A Republic is such a structure, a structure of laws such as the Constitution. #Representation, law, and the means to change the law - but not means to run amok. #When it takes a long process to make changes, the changes tend to be thought out better. #Mobs can't rule when the laws prevent it, but if something is not right, it can be changed over a period of time.

So yes, we are a Democracy - because the government is of, by and for the people. #And yes, we are a Republic - because we have the framework of a Republic.

And unfortunately yes, we are decaying badly.

w0aew

06-21-2007, 10:00 PM

Or does the U.S. have designs on becoming an empire under the predominant rule of a strong executive branch?

k4kyv

06-22-2007, 10:47 PM

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ June 21 2007,20:38)]Here are some examples of Republics:

The Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela
The People's Republic of China
German Democratic Republic
Islamic Republic of Iran
French Republic
Democratic People's Republic of Korea
Islamic Republic of Pakistan
Syrian Arab Republic
Socialist Republic of Vietnam
Don't forget the Federal Republic of Germany.

Before unification it was known as West Germany. Now the entire country carries that name.

kf6rdn

06-22-2007, 10:50 PM

I forget, when saying the pledge, as you suppose to face your vertical, or your dipole? Or just the taller one?
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

K5FH

06-22-2007, 11:12 PM

Most of our problems in the United States are the direct results of politicians' attempts to turn a republic into a democracy.

KA8DKT

06-22-2007, 11:13 PM

Quote[/b] (KB9YCO @ June 21 2007,11:46)]...
Let's also not forget that the original pledge contained no references to America or God. The original pledge, written by socialist Baptist minister Francis Bellamy read as follows:

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

According to Bellamy's relatives the God references were intentionally left out so that it would not be a prayer, but a simple, short, and to the point pledge to the country.

All the other hype is simply that, hype. The pledge was never originally intended to be a requirement or some sort of sacred oath.

The Pledge of Allegiance was written for the popular children's magazine Youth's Companion by socialist author and Baptist minister Francis Bellamy on September 7, 1892. The owners of Youth's Companion were selling flags to schools, and approached Bellamy to write the Pledge for their advertising campaign. It was marketed as a way to celebrate the 400th anniversary of Columbus arriving in the Americas and was first published on the following day. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance)
That is just so very American. #Our pledge of Allegiance came from an advertising / promotional gimmick.

-gary

n2ize

06-22-2007, 11:43 PM

And to the republic for...

Which it stands
Richard Stands
Witches stands...

n6hcm

06-22-2007, 11:51 PM

let's put this all in a useful perspective:

Quote[/b] ]"I plead alignment to the flakes
of the untitled snakes of a merry cow
and to the Republicans
for which they scam
one nacho
underpants
with licorice
and jugs of wine
for owls"

KB9YCO

06-24-2007, 04:23 PM

Quote[/b] (KI4PJW @ June 21 2007,11:49)]You missed the point.
Do we live in a Republic or a Democracy? What is the difference and why it matters.
I got your point, I just strayed a bit from it, a fairly common practice around here. Regardless of the what we are, democracy or republic (I tend to agree that we are more of a limited republic, thought I think we should be more of a true democracy) having pledges or oaths simply for the sake of ensuring loyalty seems rather pointless, especially since someone not wanting to appreciate this country will continue to do so whether they are compelled to participate in rituals or not. Didn't mean to stray from the point, I just always find it amusing when people get all worked up about the whole pledge thing.

K7KBN

06-24-2007, 10:12 PM

The American's Creed
by William Tyler Page

I believe in the United States of America as a government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed, a democracy in a republic, a sovereign Nation of many sovereign States; a perfect union, one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice, and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.

I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it, to support its Constitution, to obey its laws to respect its flag, and to defend it against all enemies.

–Written 1917, accepted by the United States House of Representatives on April 3, 1918.

nx6d

06-24-2007, 10:16 PM

Quote[/b] (n6hcm @ June 22 2007,15:51)]let's put this all in a useful perspective:

Quote[/b] ]"I plead alignment to the flakes
of the untitled snakes of a merry cow
and to the Republicans
for which they scam
one nacho
underpants
with licorice
and jugs of wine
for owls"
"It's a free country"- Matt Groening...

You're weird, Henry...

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

k6bbc

06-24-2007, 10:49 PM

I will not say it until "under God" is removed.

bbc

kd5kfl

06-25-2007, 01:50 AM

"In my own words, democracy is where the laws are made by the people with no controls, so the majority can vote to kill all of the minority if they want to."

Nazi Germany was a democracy. Majority rule without minority nights.

This nonsense of teaching young people that America a democracy started back in the 1920s. Before that it was rightly called a republic.

Back in the '50s, they had loyalty oaths. people swearing they were loyal Americans, not no commie pinko fag, no sir.

A commie would be the first to stand up and take the oath. He'd be stupid if he wasn't.

In my experience, when some loudmouth demands to know if someone else is a patriot, the inevitable result of the inevitable answer is...

"is you a member of..."

The NRA ( invariably pronounced In-Our-Aye )
The KKK ( invariably pronounced Ky-Ky-Ky )
The Minutemen, the militia, some organized pack of true believers who are going to solve all of Americas problems by the simple expedient of eliminating everybody who isn't just like them.

KI4PJW

06-25-2007, 05:26 PM

Quote[/b] (KB9YCO @ June 23 2007,15:23)]Quote[/b] (KI4PJW @ June 21 2007,11:49)]You missed the point.
Do we live in a Republic or a Democracy? #What is the difference and why it matters.
I got your point, I just strayed a bit from it, a fairly common practice around here. Regardless of the what we are, democracy or republic (I tend to agree that we are more of a limited republic, thought I think we should be more of a true democracy) having pledges or oaths simply for the sake of ensuring loyalty seems rather pointless, especially since someone not wanting to appreciate this country will continue to do so whether they are compelled to participate in rituals or not. Didn't mean to stray from the point, I just always find it amusing when people get all worked up about the whole pledge thing.
Hey Man,

Thanks for the input. Just trying to get some critical thought processes tuned in. Critical stuff at the current time due to the sad state of ignorance in our great States.

ki4pjw

KI4PJW

06-25-2007, 05:35 PM

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ June 23 2007,21:49)]I will not say it until "under God" is removed.

bbc
k6bbc,

Do you realize that GOD is not a proper name for the force which is responsible for everything there is?
Do you deny, that force exists?
If so please explain.

k4kyv

06-25-2007, 05:50 PM

"Republic" simply means that the powers of a government are specifically defined and limited by a Constitution.

That means that individuals living in the republic are guaranteed specific inalienable rights and freedoms by the constitution.

Those rights and freedoms are called "civil liberties".

To-day, civil liberties in this country are increasingly endangered by laws and court rulings that limit individual freedom and unleash government power in the name of "national security".

The Constitution is being recognised more and more as nothing but a "goddam piece of paper".

KI4PJW

06-25-2007, 06:01 PM

Quote[/b] (k4kyv @ June 24 2007,16:50)]"Republic" simply means that the powers of a government are specifically defined and limited by a Constitution.

That means that individuals living in the republic are guaranteed specific inalienable rights and freedoms by the constitution.

Those rights and freedoms are called "civil liberties".

To-day, civil liberties in this country are increasingly endangered by laws and court rulings that limit individual freedom and unleash government power in the name of "national security".

The Constitution is being recognised more and more as nothing but a "goddam piece of paper".
"Constitutions are utterly worthless to restrain the tyranny of governments, unless it be understood that the people will, by force, compel the government to keep within the constitutional limits." Spooner

k6bbc

06-25-2007, 06:39 PM

Quote[/b] (KI4PJW @ June 25 2007,10:35)]Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ June 23 2007,21:49)]I will not say it until "under God" is removed.

bbc
k6bbc,

Do you realize that GOD is not a proper name for the force which is responsible for everything there is?
Do you deny, that force exists?
If so please explain.
I don’t need to explain. Adding under God to the pledge is a violation of separation of religion and government. Period. It has no place in the pledge. I will not say it.

bbc

KI4PJW

06-25-2007, 06:43 PM

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ June 24 2007,17:39)]Quote[/b] (KI4PJW @ June 25 2007,10:35)]Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ June 23 2007,21:49)]I will not say it until "under God" is removed.

bbc
k6bbc,

Do you realize that GOD is not a proper name for the force which is responsible for everything there is?
Do you deny, that force exists?
If so please explain.
I don’t need to explain. #Adding under God to the pledge is a violation of separation of religion and government. #Period. #It has no place in the pledge. #I will not say it.

bbc
Please explain where the prohibition comes from.

k6bbc

06-25-2007, 06:49 PM

Quote[/b] (KI4PJW @ June 25 2007,11:43)]Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ June 24 2007,17:39)]Quote[/b] (KI4PJW @ June 25 2007,10:35)]Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ June 23 2007,21:49)]I will not say it until "under God" is removed.

bbc
k6bbc,

Do you realize that GOD is not a proper name for the force which is responsible for everything there is?
Do you deny, that force exists?
If so please explain.
I don’t need to explain. Adding under God to the pledge is a violation of separation of religion and government. Period. It has no place in the pledge. I will not say it.

bbc
Please explain where the prohibition comes from.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

AE6IP

06-26-2007, 03:49 AM

Quote[/b] ]In 18th century historical usages, especially when considering the works of the Founding Fathers of the United States, the word "democracy" was associated with radical equalitarianism and was often defined to mean what we today call direct democracy. In the same historical context, the word "republic" was used to refer to what we now call representative democracy.[20] For example, James Madison, in Federalist Paper No. 10, advocates a constitutional republic over a democracy to protect the individual from the majority.[21] Madison was seeking to distinguish between a direct democracy and a representative democracy, but his choice to do so using the words "democracy" and "republic" had no basis in prior usage of the words. [22]

You are trying to make a distinction without a difference. Language changes, and what Madison called "republic" is not what Plato meant by republic, but more what in English is now called 'representational democracy.'

The United States of America is a representational democracy, a form of government also sometimes called a 'democratic republic.'