Bush needs to go

[k6bbc]

Bush Vetos Stem cell research (http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/06/20/bush.stem.cell.ap/index.html)

[KC9KOC]

I don't agree with the descision either but it's hardly a major blow to the country.

[k7kwh]

Wrong.

The Shrub has alienated the US from many other foreign countries, not to mention the PEOPLE of the US, since he overthrew the democratic process in November 2000.

Look at his 'pet' projects/proposals:

The 'Great Wall of America': #Has damaged US/Mexico relations since its proposal.

'No Child Left Behind': Still a lot of children left behind; the US literacy rate is lower than some 'THIRD WORLD' countries.

The Iraq rhubarb: DON'T GET ME STARTED.

His piecemeal dismantling of the Constitution: IMHO nothing short of treason.

The pursuit of Al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden: #Why hasn't he captured Osama?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Simple. #It gives The Shrub some semblance of justification to keep our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I know there are more 'high crimes and #misdemeanours' that he has committed during his residence at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue that would more than support impeachment and removal from office, but sadly, Congress can't get the necessary 66.6667%
majority vote required to do so.

K7KWH

[KC9KOC]

And these things have what to do with the thread's topic of stem cell research?


Honestly, I think Bush has taken us in the right direction on many major issues but his actual plans and execution thereof has been poor.

And was Kerry any better? Was Gore? Is anyone running for either of the two party nominations now any better?

The Democrats crap on our rights just as bad as the Republicans do. The only real difference is which ones they crap on.

[KI4ITV]

And just why should the federal government pay for this?
He didn't ban the research, his opposition had to do more with embryonic stem cell research, than the other more proven methods.
People tend to do better with their own stem cells anyway, and the fetal tissue researchers are over hyped in their quest for funding.

Not a bad move on the Presidents part. Sorry you don't think so.

He has done some stupid crap...but this is not it.

edited: Why should the government subsidise what is going to be a private patent some day? We pay now and we pay later? This research is going to be done anyway and Federal dollars are not going to save us time or money in the long run.

[w3mv]

Quote[/b] (KI4ITV @ June 20 2007,14:19)]And just why should the federal government pay for this?

Why should the government fund abstinence-only sex education programs when they are not effective? Why should the government confiscate income from non-believers to give to faith-based charities? Heck, why should the government fund any kind of basic research?

[KI4ITV]

Quote[/b] (w3mv @ June 20 2007,09:34)]Quote[/b] (KI4ITV @ June 20 2007,14:19)]And just why should the federal government pay for this?

Why should the government fund abstinence-only sex education programs when they are not effective? Why should the government confiscate income from non-believers to give to faith-based charities? Heck, why should the government fund any kind of basic research?
There you go, we are on the same page now.
Let the private sector handle the minutia. The reason everything is so d@mn expensive is because the government cant' keep its hands and noses out of anything.

[WB2WIK]

Except the research, especially if done by Americans, not only has the possibility of helping our and future generations, but also helps keep America abreast (or ahead) of most of the world and what many consider to be the most desirable place to live in the world, while also creating jobs for Americans.

If the government canceled all research programs, there'd be about another million people unemployed, and I happen to know three or four of them are actually doing something productive. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[K3XR]

Embryonic stem cell research fraud. #More junk science from the LEFT.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=18890

[kf6rdn]

Quote[/b] (k7kwh @ June 20 2007,12:59)]Wrong.

The Shrub has alienated the US from many other foreign countries, not to mention the PEOPLE of the US, since he overthrew the democratic process in November 2000.


...
The 'Great Wall of America': Has damaged US/Mexico relations since its proposal.
...

K7KWH
Huh? He wants AMNESTY! THAT'S what people don't want.

US/Mexico relations are, we let their surplus in, they are fine, we deport or stop them, they are pissed.

Let alone they have way more stringent ingress to THEIR country, but we can't secure our borders..


Screw Mexico, and screw Bush when it comes to that.

Edit - yes, sry off topic but I couldnt let that pass.

[kf6rdn]

Course when I first saw this, I couldn't help think of the old:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/images/september2005/150905bathroombreak.jpg

Cracks.

[k6bbc]

Will you religious fanatics please move to another country – say Mississippi.

Do us all a favor.

bbc

[w3mv]

Quote[/b] (KI4ITV @ June 20 2007,14:39)]There you go, we are on the same page now.
Let the private sector handle the minutia. The reason everything is so d@mn expensive is because the government cant' keep its hands and noses out of anything.
I was being sarcastic. The cold hard fact is that we would be a third-world country without government-funded university research. The private sector has proven time after time that it is not interested in funding basic research. The private sector will only fund applied research. Furthermore, the private sector cannot compete with university research with respect to cost as universities have thousands of slaves known as graduate students and post-docs.

[w3mv]

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ June 20 2007,15:45)]Will you religious fanatics please move to another country – say Mississippi.

Do us all a favor.
I just came back from 4-land. Wow! I would hate to be a non-Bible thumper in this call area. The average 4-lander has a completely skewed view of religion in America.

[ad4mg]

Quote[/b] (w3mv @ June 20 2007,19:07)]Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ June 20 2007,15:45)]Will you religious fanatics please move to another country – say Mississippi.

Do us all a favor.
I just came back from 4-land. Wow! I would hate to be a non-Bible thumper in this call area. The average 4-lander has a completely skewed view of religion in America.
Yeah, tell me about it. I live on the northern fringes, in the Communistwealth Kountry of Virginia. I'm swimming in Bible bruisers here.

[ka5piu]

Quote[/b] (KC9KOC @ June 20 2007,14:09)]The Democrats crap on our rights just as bad as the Republicans do. #The only real difference is which ones they crap on.
Hello.

Totally true.

[KI4ITV]

Quote[/b] (w3mv @ June 20 2007,10:45)]Quote[/b] (KI4ITV @ June 20 2007,14:39)]There you go, we are on the same page now.
Let the private sector handle the minutia. The reason everything is so d@mn expensive is because the government cant' keep its hands and noses out of anything.
I was being sarcastic. The cold hard fact is that we would be a third-world country without government-funded university research. The private sector has proven time after time that it is not interested in funding basic research. The private sector will only fund applied research. Furthermore, the private sector cannot compete with university research with respect to cost as universities have thousands of slaves known as graduate students and post-docs.We tell ourselves this, but it is not the truth. Government has become an expensive burden on the backs of all of us. Now people accept freely that government is our savior and that individuals or business would never do good without something there to prod us along, keep us in line, and finance the things we are too stupid to think are important.
Government has its place. But, its roll as the big tit of society is really starting to get out of hand. Government makes things expensive, and government takes more than it gives once it matures to the point of self-serving machine, like ours has become.
Let's cut the spending, someone will pick up the ball and run with it.

(...and I knew you were kidding http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )

[w3mv]

Let's see what we would not have without government-funded basic research:

- Computers
- The Internet
- Satellite Communications
- Almost every prescription drug that has hit the market since WWII
- Microminiaturized electronics
- Nuclear power
- Nuclear Medicine
- Cutting-edge fields such as Genomics, Proteomics, and Bioinformatics
- Polymers
- Advanced Materials


Basically, government-funded basic research took us from being a two-bit country before WWII to being an economic powerhouse.

[ka5piu]

Hello.

The US government has done some good, but.
The first satellite was Sputnik.
The first communications satellite was cron.
Both were a Russian project.
The Internet is based on ARPANET.
That is based on picket fence, an almost direct copy of the Soviet program.
The Russians got the idea from the Germans.
The US space program was a rehash of the German program, and we did not do that great with it.
The only reason the US wants to go to moon is that China has made it a priority.
But, with that said, the US has funded some very useful research.
I really like underwater basketweaving.

[K3XR]

While your at it, you might want to think about how you are going to get rid of the DEM led Congress, with a confidence rating much lower than Bush, at 14%. An ALL TIME low.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/gallup/2007/06/what_do_hmos_an.html

[KI4PJW]

One more example of the "Real" reason he should go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a3Bfox0k4g

[KD6NIG]

Perhaps you should ask your state to fund it.

I know they passed a bill in California allowing for it. Actually I don't think the bill allows for it, it just grants funding for it.

And they had a blurb on the news this morning about how they are doing it in the UC system in California, and the funding is state, not federal.

I believe all Bush vetoed was the funding. If you're really for it, get your state to do it.

I don't honestly know if I'm for or against it, but I don't see them curing stuff by sitting on their hands, either.....

[kl7aj]

Quote[/b] (KI4ITV @ June 20 2007,19:28)]Quote[/b] (w3mv @ June 20 2007,10:45)]Quote[/b] (KI4ITV @ June 20 2007,14:39)]There you go, we are on the same page now.
Let the private sector handle the minutia. #The reason everything is so d@mn expensive is because the government cant' keep its hands and noses out of anything.
I was being sarcastic. #The cold hard fact is that we would be a third-world country without government-funded university research. # The private sector has proven time after time that it is not interested in funding basic research. # The private sector will only fund applied research. #Furthermore, the private sector cannot compete with university research with respect to cost as universities have thousands of slaves known as graduate students and post-docs.We tell ourselves this, but it is not the truth. #Government has become an expensive burden on the backs of all of us. #Now people accept freely that government is our savior and that individuals or business would never do good without something there to prod us along, keep us in line, and finance the things we are too stupid to think are important.
Government has its place. But, its roll as the big tit of society is really starting to get out of hand. #Government makes things expensive, and government takes more than it gives once it matures to the point of self-serving machine, like ours has become.
Let's cut the spending, someone will pick up the ball and run with it.

(...and I knew you were kidding #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #)
I've been on both ends of the stick on this one. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Of course, Edison and Tesla were private research institutions in their own right...a lot of good basic research came out of those fellers.
For many years I worked for the UCLA department of plasma physics, and although I WAS a government funded researcher....I wasn't doing anything that COULDN"T have been done in a private lab. In fact, some of my colleagues from that lab ARE now doing private startup work.

And I think we're learning that private corporations CAN put men in space...if not on the Moon...just yet.

IF there is one thing to be said about university research...there IS a creative atmosphere/vibe/whatever that I had in the UCLA lab that I just haven't QUITE seen in private research. I understand that Hewlett-Packard had that vibe in the early days...as well as private East Coast labs like Cherry Hill. But, admittedly, applied research is a far easier "sell" to quarterly profile corporate entities, than pure research.

This is such a tough call for me. My "oldocon" instincts tell me that private research is so much better, philosophically...but I have to admit I has SO MUCH FUN in the UCLA lab.

There is more to true science than just the politics and economics. There's a soul to it that transcends all those bounds.

eric

[w5klb]

Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ June 20 2007,15:45)]Will you religious fanatics please move to another country – say Mississippi.

Do us all a favor.

bbc
Better yet, let's give Grainolaland (California) back to the Mexicans. From what I've heard, Mexico already considers "the Land of Fruits, Flakes and Nuts" a far northern state anyway. It would be our way of getting even with Mexico for encouraging their people to illegally come here.

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (w3mv @ June 20 2007,22:35)]Let's see what we would not have without government-funded basic research:

- Computers
- The Internet
- Satellite Communications
- Almost every prescription drug that has hit the market since WWII
- Microminiaturized electronics
- Nuclear power
- Nuclear Medicine
- Cutting-edge fields such as Genomics, Proteomics, and Bioinformatics
- Polymers
- Advanced Materials


Basically, government-funded basic research took us from being a two-bit country before WWII to being an economic powerhouse.
Very true, which is why the neocons and religious right want to send the country spinning in the opposite direction. As the rest of the world advances and moves forwards the USA will fall further and further back as we slowly regress back into the superstition and fears of the dark ages.

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (KI4ITV @ June 20 2007,19:28)]Quote[/b] (w3mv @ June 20 2007,10:45)]Quote[/b] (KI4ITV @ June 20 2007,14:39)]There you go, we are on the same page now.
Let the private sector handle the minutia. #The reason everything is so d@mn expensive is because the government cant' keep its hands and noses out of anything.
I was being sarcastic. #The cold hard fact is that we would be a third-world country without government-funded university research. # The private sector has proven time after time that it is not interested in funding basic research. # The private sector will only fund applied research. #Furthermore, the private sector cannot compete with university research with respect to cost as universities have thousands of slaves known as graduate students and post-docs.We tell ourselves this, but it is not the truth. #Government has become an expensive burden on the backs of all of us. #Now people accept freely that government is our savior and that individuals or business would never do good without something there to prod us along, keep us in line, and finance the things we are too stupid to think are important.
Government has its place. But, its roll as the big tit of society is really starting to get out of hand. #Government makes things expensive, and government takes more than it gives once it matures to the point of self-serving machine, like ours has become.
Let's cut the spending, someone will pick up the ball and run with it.

(...and I knew you were kidding #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #)
Actually you are quite wrong. There are numerous things (including research) that the government has done and continues to do that are both cost effective and efficient, The Ayn Randian model of privatization, self policing free enterprise with no regulation is absurd and doomed to failure.

[kl7aj]

Quote[/b] (n2ize @ June 21 2007,11:30)]Quote[/b] (KI4ITV @ June 20 2007,19:28)]Quote[/b] (w3mv @ June 20 2007,10:45)]Quote[/b] (KI4ITV @ June 20 2007,14:39)]There you go, we are on the same page now.
Let the private sector handle the minutia. #The reason everything is so d@mn expensive is because the government cant' keep its hands and noses out of anything.
I was being sarcastic. #The cold hard fact is that we would be a third-world country without government-funded university research. # The private sector has proven time after time that it is not interested in funding basic research. # The private sector will only fund applied research. #Furthermore, the private sector cannot compete with university research with respect to cost as universities have thousands of slaves known as graduate students and post-docs.We tell ourselves this, but it is not the truth. #Government has become an expensive burden on the backs of all of us. #Now people accept freely that government is our savior and that individuals or business would never do good without something there to prod us along, keep us in line, and finance the things we are too stupid to think are important.
Government has its place. But, its roll as the big tit of society is really starting to get out of hand. #Government makes things expensive, and government takes more than it gives once it matures to the point of self-serving machine, like ours has become.
Let's cut the spending, someone will pick up the ball and run with it.

(...and I knew you were kidding #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #)
Actually you are quite wrong. There are numerous things (including research) that the government has done and continues to do that are both cost effective and efficient, The Ayn Randian model of privatization, self policing free enterprise with no regulation is absurd and doomed to failure.
What you fail to realize, though, is that taxing the wealth generating people (beyond a certain level) DESTROYS the incentive to create wealth. If I can live a better life on welfare than I can by going out and being productive and creative, I'm going to DO that. There is a point where redistributing the wealth KILLS the goose that lays the golden egg. We are pretty close to that fine line..and have been for quite some time.
People will NOT work if they can't reap the rewards of their labors, regardless of other government policies. Ayn Rand understood this perfectly. Of course it sounds selfish. I admit it. I'm not going to work to support someone who wont.
When the wealth generating people no longer generate wealth because they can't reap the rewards, EVERYONE loses.

I heard it put most succinctly like this:

"I've never been offered a job by a poor man."

Case closed.

[ad4mg]

Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ June 21 2007,14:49)]I heard it put most succinctly like this:

"I've never been offered a job by a poor man."

Case closed.
There is truth there, but the case can never be "closed".

The rich man often will not pay the poor man fairly, unless forced to do so, be it demand for the poor man's services, or other outside influence.

A lot of folks call it good, old fashioned GREED.

Basic human nature.

Case reopened for the foreseeable future.

[N1LAF]

Quote[/b] (ad4mg @ June 20 2007,16:22)]Quote[/b] (w3mv @ June 20 2007,19:07)]Quote[/b] (k6bbc @ June 20 2007,15:45)]Will you religious fanatics please move to another country – say Mississippi.

Do us all a favor.
I just came back from 4-land. Wow! I would hate to be a non-Bible thumper in this call area. The average 4-lander has a completely skewed view of religion in America.
Yeah, tell me about it. I live on the northern fringes, in the Communistwealth Kountry of Virginia. I'm swimming in Bible bruisers here.
Glad to see that everyone here is so enlightened, tolerant, and open minded.

[N1LAF]

Quote[/b] (ad4mg @ June 21 2007,17:34)]Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ June 21 2007,14:49)]I heard it put most succinctly like this:

"I've never been offered a job by a poor man."

Case closed.
There is truth there, but the case can never be "closed".

The rich man often will not pay the poor man fairly, unless forced to do so, be it demand for the poor man's services, or other outside influence.

A lot of folks call it good, old fashioned GREED.

Basic human nature.

Case reopened for the foreseeable future.
Yes, true, too many times

Add in hiring illegals, pay them a lower than average pay, and have that knowledge (that they are illegals) over them, and as a bonus, do not pay income/payroll taxes or social security - which screws the rest of us.

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ June 21 2007,11:49)]Quote[/b] (n2ize @ June 21 2007,11:30)]Quote[/b] (KI4ITV @ June 20 2007,19:28)]Quote[/b] (w3mv @ June 20 2007,10:45)]Quote[/b] (KI4ITV @ June 20 2007,14:39)]There you go, we are on the same page now.
Let the private sector handle the minutia. #The reason everything is so d@mn expensive is because the government cant' keep its hands and noses out of anything.
I was being sarcastic. #The cold hard fact is that we would be a third-world country without government-funded university research. # The private sector has proven time after time that it is not interested in funding basic research. # The private sector will only fund applied research. #Furthermore, the private sector cannot compete with university research with respect to cost as universities have thousands of slaves known as graduate students and post-docs.We tell ourselves this, but it is not the truth. #Government has become an expensive burden on the backs of all of us. #Now people accept freely that government is our savior and that individuals or business would never do good without something there to prod us along, keep us in line, and finance the things we are too stupid to think are important.
Government has its place. But, its roll as the big tit of society is really starting to get out of hand. #Government makes things expensive, and government takes more than it gives once it matures to the point of self-serving machine, like ours has become.
Let's cut the spending, someone will pick up the ball and run with it.

(...and I knew you were kidding #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #)
Actually you are quite wrong. There are numerous things (including research) that the government has done and continues to do that are both cost effective and efficient, The Ayn Randian model of privatization, self policing free enterprise with no regulation is absurd and doomed to failure.
What you fail to realize, though, is that taxing the wealth generating people (beyond a certain level) DESTROYS the incentive to create wealth. #If I can live a better life on welfare than I can by going out and being productive and creative, I'm going to DO that. #There is a point where redistributing the wealth KILLS the goose that lays the golden egg. #We are pretty close to that fine line..and have been for quite some time.
People will NOT work if they can't reap the rewards of their labors, regardless of other government policies. #Ayn Rand understood this perfectly. #Of course it sounds selfish. #I admit it. #I'm not going to work to support someone who wont.
When the wealth generating people no longer generate wealth because they can't reap the rewards, EVERYONE loses.

I heard it put most succinctly like this:

"I've never been offered a job by a poor man."

Case closed.
Quote[/b] ]
What you fail to realize, though, is that taxing the wealth generating people (beyond a certain level) DESTROYS the incentive to create wealth. #If I can live a better life on welfare than I can by going out and being productive and creative, I'm going to DO that.


But that's not the case. Nobody is taxing the wealthy to the point where life on welfare exceeds working and being creative. Nor do the taxes imposed on wealth make it no longer worthwhile to acquire wealth. And nobody I am aware of is even proposing such a degree of taxation.

Quote[/b] ]
People will NOT work if they can't reap the rewards of their labors, regardless of other government policies. #Ayn Rand understood this perfectly. #Of course it sounds selfish. #I admit it. #I'm not going to work to support someone who wont.
When the wealth generating people no longer generate wealth because they can't reap the rewards, EVERYONE loses.


The same applies to poor people. At least the wealthy have plenty of money left over for things other than the basic essentials of life. The very poor have little "reward" left after they have paid for rent, food, utility, transportation, medical, etc. Poor people generate wealth it's just that very little of that wealth remains from paycheck to paycheck.

Since when have the wealthy in this country been prohibited from reaping their rewards ? And when has anyone asked you to support someone who won't work. ? The problem with Ayn Randians is they refuse to recognize that our system of economics is not flawless. The problems that plague our economy go back to the old world and beyond. Namely you have poverty and you have quite legitimate reasons for poverty. The Ayn Randians want you to belive that everyone in America who is poor is that way by their own choice, namelly laziness and refusal to work, i.e. poor/poverty just cannot happen in America. #However, that myth is no more true here than anywhere else. #Many of us feel that some form of social reform and service is beneficial to provide for people in times of need (including many who work/have worked and paid taxes). I have no problem with some viable means of social service to assit those in need. I think we all benefit when someone is enabled to get through tought times and move into a better life. The current system could stand greater efficiance and improvement but I think it's far better to have it in place than not to.

In any event to sum it up there is really no point here. Death tax, estate tax or no tax at all, #the wealthy have not been prevented from acquiring wealth and.or enjoying their wealth. Nor has there been any such proposal to tax the rich into oblivion. #Other than to create strawmen I see no point to arguing that the rich will no longer have an incentive to make money. Never happened, never will. With or without taxation, with or without redistribution of wealth the rich will remain rich and will continue to make lots and lots of money.