Whine whine whine, HF radios cost to much

[N2RJ]

I read in June QST where a tech sent a letter to the editor about the high cost of HF equipment.

If you have June QST, read it.

Basically he wants an entry level rig woth 40m, 20m and 10m and 100w for $500.

Is he like for real?

Dude, you can get an all band HF rig for around $300 at hamfests. They will just be older and not have all of the goodies like a ProIII or FT2000. But they are perfectly good HF rigs and will at least give you a few years use, if not more.

Furthermore, you can buy and build kits! Small Wonder Labs, NorCal and others make fine kits. Sure, you'll have to learn CW, but that's life. In fact there are even SSB rigs and PSK rigs that you can get in kit form, or boards such as BITX that you can build a transceiver from and get on the air, no CW required!

Long ago hams built all of their equipment. When I started, I built a kit transceiver and used that too.

Suffice to say I'm disappointed that some of today's new hams think that you have no options to get on the air unless you have a lot of money.

[AG3Y]

RJ, I have been wishing for years that there would be a decent receiver that would be the solid state equivilent of a Drake 2B, and a transmitter that would function like the old Heathkit seperates, but using transistorized circuitry.

I keep hearing from guys that insist that it is so much easier to design computerized circuitry that does everything a ham rig should do, that analog circuitry will never appear in the forefront again! #

That is a shame! # Now there are some decent rigs out there, but there are only two kits that I am aware of that offer the circuitry that a modern Far Eastern rig comes from the factory with. #( The Elecraft K2 and new K3 ) #The other rigs you mention are basically QRP items, which really are not all that suitable for newer, inexperienced operators, especially at this bottom of the sunspot cycle we are in right now. #

The best answer is to get a piece of older equipment from a hamfest or from the internet, but the old adage, "let the buyer beware" has never been truer than it is right now. #

I really wish that Elecraft had a bit more competition. #I am sure they are excellent rigs, and I really would love to build and operate one myself, but it would be very interesting to see what else someone else could come up with, and how that would result in product improvements and lowered prices!

BTW, see the discussion about "newbies" setting up near contest grade stations from the git-go. #I would be interested in hearing what you have to say on the subject.

73, Jim

[N2RJ]

Jim, I understand what you're saying, but what I am saying is that there are always options.

When you first got your driver license, you didn't go complaining to Mercedes or Bavarian Motor Works that their cars cost too much, now did you?

No, you probably drove an old, used hand me down!

And that is exactly what you can get to get on the air. Something like an Icom 720 or a TS-440S can be had for a couple of hundred dollars.

If you want to go even cheaper, you can get a QRP kit and still have a lot of fun.

We are hams, dammit, we should make lemonade when given lemons!

[w3dub]

I must say I disagree N2RJ -- I think the central gist of his letter had a point. He's talking about an entry entry level rig. This is fairly barebones, Like the IC-718 except similar. Frankly there are not enough of them in this market. There's really not a lot of mid-range good new equipment out there. It's either one extreme or the other.

I see both your points, but I feel you misinterpreted his general gist. Whats wrong with offering a "starter" package?

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (KB3JGU @ June 03 2007,22:35)]I must say I disagree N2RJ -- I think the central gist of his letter had a point. He's talking about an entry entry level rig. This is fairly barebones, Like the IC-718 except similar. Frankly there are not enough of them in this market. There's really not a lot of mid-range good new equipment out there. It's either one extreme or the other.

I see both your points, but I feel you misinterpreted his general gist. Whats wrong with offering a "starter" package?
The problem with a "starter" package for $500 is that it already exists.

Used rigs sell for that amount or less.

QRP kits sell for much, much cheaper, if you are really short of funds.

I started out with an IARU 20m CW transceiver kit, and that was not that long ago - 1997!

I had a lot of fun and made a lot of contacts with 5 watts on CW.

For $500, how much profit do you think YaeComWood is going to be able to make? It is not like a consumer appliance that has a wide marketshare. Ham radios are for the most part a niche product and priced as such. 100 watts of power is going to cost money. Maybe if he said 25 watts or 50 I would agree with him. But 100w is going to cost more money.

[kd7msc]

You can pick up a used 820 or similar for less than $400 and in my opinion is 10 times the HF rig these new $500 starter rigs are. There are enough black plastic boxes on the market.

Real Radios Glow!!

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (kd7msc @ June 03 2007,22:44)]You can pick up a used 820 or similar for less than $400 and in my opinion is 10 times the HF rig these new $500 starter rigs are. There are enough black plastic boxes on the market.

Real Radios Glow!!
Yes, that is certainly true!

Buying used rigs also puts fewer of them in the landfill.

[K6UEY]

AG3Y,
Jim I am not surprised at neophytes setting up contest grade level stations. Most of those I have run into had some type of inborn knowledge of Ham Radio.

Once they passed that "TECHNICIAN" entry level test they expected to get a Baccalaureate in Engineering from the local University.
Because they deemed study as a waste of their time I had to surmise that the fact they knew all there was to know, on the fact they were Born with the knowledge, inborn, sort of like a dog who lifts his leg when necseeary !!

I believe this is a resultant of the Gene splicing technology science has developed.
My Generation did not have that ability, I have been relagated to study for over 50 years in Ham Radio, and still do not know it all. # # ...... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[AG3Y]

"100 watts of power is going to cost money. Maybe if he said 25 watts or 50 I would agree with him. But 100w is going to cost more money. "

Yes, I believe that is true. The 100 watt kit for the Electraft K2/100 adds over 300 dollars to the basic cost of the kit. A 25 watt PA could probably be built using a couple of transistors costing $10 or $15 each, which would be far less expensive than a 100 watter, and only an S-unit or so down in signal strength at the other end!

That is the kind of thinking that seems to be so lacking now days!

How about offering a rig with a few more features, but just not the amount of power that is commonly found in the great majority of todays rigs, but more than true QRP ?

Novices used to be able to talk around the world with 25 to 75 watts ( 75 was the max allowed, as a matter of fact ) and it is very doubtful that they could have done any better with the increase of power to 100 watts. And that increase in power is with a very high increase in cost!

Keep thinking ! We could start a new trend, here.

73, Jim

[ke5jjk]

There you go UEY, I knew somone could manage to throw a slam at the no code tech. #Glad you could stretch wit enough to encompass the task.

As for rigs (what the discussion was actually about), there are more cost effenctive options than opening a catalog. #A little work will produce a very nice rig. #I have a Kenwood TS-430s. #Covers 10-160 meter, all modes. #Cost me $200 to the door, and another $30 added the FM unit. #I built a fan dipole, and have made several excellent contacts, including Russia.
Why everyone thinks new is the only route is beyond me. #I would rather have used with better quality, but a few fingerprints for far less. #
Leaves me a little extra money to buy those books like "Making the Extras Hate You Because You Didn't Have to Pass Code"http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[K0RGR]

I agree that there are certainly a lot of nice used rigs out there to choose from at almost any price level. I've bought and sold several good 'starter rigs' in the $200 class in reent years.

Unfortunately, my radios were not 'mint' collectible condition. They just worked OK. They had scratches on them. Somebody might have smoked around them years ago. Some had noisy or 'flaky' controls.

I think the IC-718 at $600 is a very attractive box.

If Techs continue to learn the code, there might be a market for an inexpensive CW-only rig that covers 80/40/15 and 10 meters. I imagine Ten Tec is already looking at this, and Elecraft could have a contender by repackaging the K1 to operate the Tech bands and come up with a 40-50w amplifier.

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ June 03 2007,22:32)]BTW, see the discussion about "newbies" setting up near contest grade stations from the git-go. I would be interested in hearing what you have to say on the subject.

73, Jim
Where's that?

[WB2WIK]

I've been working quite a few of the new upgrades on the bands. In fact, specifically looking for them by operating above 14.225 on 20m (where the Generals can go), etc. Yes, there's more DX down lower, but I'm looking for the newbies where I can.

One thing I notice is that many have already invested in equipment that's just fine, but haven't followed through with antennas. Maybe the guy who has a $500 budget should remember that $500 invested in antenna systems connected to a throw-away rig will work a lot better than a new $500 rig with no antennas.

I worked just one newbie recently who gets my "Atta Boy" award. He was using a 40 year-old Heath HW-101 (which sounded just fine on the air), connected to his brand new 3 element monoband 20m yagi on a used tower he picked up and installed last week. Evidently, his entire investment in 20m was antennas and he invested virtually nothing on a rig. Boy, was he sounding good -- and strong.

WB2WIK/6

[WA3KYY]

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ June 04 2007,13:14)]I agree that there are certainly a lot of nice used rigs out there to choose from at almost any price level. I've bought and sold several good 'starter rigs' in the $200 class in reent years.

Unfortunately, my radios were not 'mint' collectible condition. They just worked OK. They had scratches on them. Somebody might have smoked around them years ago. Some had noisy or 'flaky' controls.

I think the IC-718 at $600 is a very attractive box.

If Techs continue to learn the code, there might be a market for an inexpensive CW-only rig that covers 80/40/15 and 10 meters. I imagine Ten Tec is already looking at this, and Elecraft could have a contender by repackaging the K1 to operate the Tech bands and come up with a 40-50w amplifier.
The K1 already operates on the Tech bands "out of the box". #Remember, on 80, 40, 15 and 10, Techs have the same CW privleges as Generals and the K1 covers those with the appropriate filter boards. I believe you can order the 4-band version with 80/40 and 15/10 as the bands of choice.

I don't see Elecraft offering a 40-50W amp kit for these anytime soon, but then I did not expect the K3 either. #However, the HF Pack amps work very well with the K1 and are only a little more complicated to build than a K1.

73,
Mike WA3KYY

[KA4DPO]

I really like the idea of a solid state equivalent of the Drake 2-B. Such a receiver would be easy to do with modern components and wouldn't require crystals since a VCO and digital synthesizer could easily handle all the heterodyning tasks.

Even without DSP and a lot of fancy electronics it would be a very hot analog receiver. We should design one and see if we can get a Chineese company to build them cheap.

[WA2ZDY]

There aren't more IC-718 class rigs because they won't sell in great numbers.

I was first licensed in January 1975. The CB boom was approaching full swing by then but the mass migration from CB to ham radio hadn't started yet. Novices started with junk rigs almost universally. (The rigs that are selling like gold now!)

On the infrequent occassion when the Novice on the other end said he was using a Heath SB series rig, a Drake 4- line or very rare, a Collins, we stood up and took notice. And almost always, that was a Novice who had a higher class ham in the house. Novices used the junk rigs until they upgraded, thus learning how to make the most of the least, how to keep the stuff working, and also being sure they were really interested before spending the big bucks.

With the influx of CBers starting in the mid to late 1970's, this all changed. New hams typically had FT101s (gee, all those radios had the wire cut; see a connection?) and Collins was pretty common too. And from that point since, new hams have tended to buy the latest and greatest to start.

They're investing heavily without certainty it'll be a good investment (for them personally,) and they're not learning many technical skills. I think that's what Orv was referring to in his post above.

Quote[/b] ]I am not surprised at neophytes setting up contest grade level stations. Most of those I have run into had some type of inborn knowledge of Ham Radio.

And while it has naught to do with the subject at hand, Orv is also correct about know-it-alls. Too many new hams are coming from the ranks of "freebanders." These are folks who've felt superior to the typical "AM" CBers for decades. The mindset on the freeband is that they're better, more knowledgeable, and don't need any help.

Anyway, the point I was getting at is the new hams are of the belief that they should have the latest and greatest. An IC-718 is well worth the price tag. But the bells and whistles attract the majority of buyers who think they NEED them. And a look at the illegal CB radios offered will show you exactly where the bells and whistles mentality is originating.

[k2gsp]

There are a bunch of cheap great radios out there. I got a TS450S AT with a MC-60 Desk mic and a hand mic for 475 and I wouldn't trade it for anything. I also got a TS-520 with an external VFO and matching speaker with a mic for 275, which I also will be holding on to, so they are out there if you look.

[NI3B]

I don't see an issue with the article....as a matter of fact these types of HF radios actually did exist at one point. The Uniden HR-2600/2510 was perfect for the newcomer...even if it was only for 10 meters.

I had a HR-2600 in my car in the early '90s even though I had ssb privileges on all bands I had a lot of fun mobile with 10 meter ssb. Of course, this was at the height of the last sun spot cycle.

I still recommend the Kenwood TS-820/830 to newcomers as an inexpensive but high quality HF rig to start with.

Best,
Brian

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (ka3vsp @ June 04 2007,15:25)]I don't see an issue with the article....as a matter of fact these types of HF radios actually did exist at one point. The Uniden HR-2600/2510 was perfect for the newcomer...even if it was only for 10 meters.

I had a HR-2600 in my car in the early '90s even though I had ssb privileges on all bands I had a lot of fun mobile with 10 meter ssb. Of course, this was at the height of the last sun spot cycle.

I still recommend the Kenwood TS-820/830 to newcomers as an inexpensive but high quality HF rig to start with.

Best,
Brian
The Uniden was an 11 meters radio!

That not withstanding, It was 25 watts, single band only.

This guy was asking for 100 watts and 40, 20 and 10 meters.

You're not going to get that brand new for $500.

[kl7aj]

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ June 03 2007,20:19)]I read in June QST where a tech sent a letter to the editor about the high cost of HF equipment.

If you have June QST, read it.

Basically he wants an entry level rig woth 40m, 20m and 10m and 100w for $500.

Is he like for real?

Dude, you can get an all band HF rig for around $300 at hamfests. #They will just be older and not have all of the goodies like a ProIII or FT2000. #But they are perfectly good HF rigs and will at least give you a few years use, if not more.

Furthermore, you can buy and build kits! #Small Wonder Labs, NorCal and others make fine kits. #Sure, you'll have to learn CW, but that's life. #In fact there are even SSB rigs and PSK rigs that you can get in kit form, or boards such as BITX that you can build a transceiver from and get on the air, no CW required! #

Long ago hams built all of their equipment. #When I started, I built a kit transceiver and used that too.

Suffice to say I'm disappointed that some of today's new hams think that you have no options to get on the air unless you have a lot of money.
Tell him to sell a few I-pods or X-boxes, or whatever else he's toasting his brains on. Life requires sacrifices once in a while..

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ June 03 2007,20:49)]Quote[/b] (kd7msc @ June 03 2007,22:44)]You can pick up a used 820 or similar for less than $400 and in my opinion is 10 times the HF rig these new $500 starter rigs are. There are enough black plastic boxes on the market.

Real Radios Glow!!
Yes, that is certainly true!

Buying used rigs also puts fewer of them in the landfill.
I'm not sure the older, "previously owned" tube rigs are such a good idea for the "newbies."
They haven't been exposed (poor choice of words) to the hazards of high voltage, and CAN be a danger to themselves, through no fault of their own. There are enough hazards associated with the solid state rigs (RF burns DO hurt!) that they need some technical expertise and knowledge under their belt before they take on hollow state devices.
After all is said and done, I'd much rather consider someone a "newbie appliance operator" than an "SK." At least a NAO can learn; an SK doesn't have that option.


BTW, if the person originally portrayed thought HF rigs are expensive, let him try to find a GOOD VHF/UHF all-mode rig! Mine cost 90% more than my HF rig. Good equipment, hollow OR solid state, ain't cheap!

[K9STH]

The Uniden HR-2510 and HR-2600 were originally sold for use on 10 meters. They have "all mode" capabilities which includes USB, LSB, AM, FM, and CW. The HR-2600 does have 100 KHz repeater offset capabilities for FM on 10 meters and the HR-2510 does not have this capability. However, the receiver in the HR-2510 is definitely better than the one in the HR-2600.

These units were sold for use by licensed amateur radio operators. Unfortunately, it was soon discovered that these radio could be modified to go down to 26.000 MHz with a very simple modification process. The result was that quite a number of HR-2510 and HR-2600 units were purchased for the purpose of modifying them for use outside of the amateur radio bands. The eventual result was that they were placed on the "no no" list by the FCC.

I personally own 2 HR-2510 units. The first one was purchased directly from Uniden America the corporate headquarters for the United States is located just south of the Dallas / Fort Worth International Airport. I got this unit not that long after the HR-2510 and HR-2600 units were announced by Uniden (long before they were added to the "no no" list). I had wanted an HR-2600 because of the FM repeater "split" capabilities but the people at Uniden actually refused to sell me the HR-2600! They said that the receiver in the HR-2510 was so much better than that in the HR-2600. Since I was authorizing the purchase of Uniden commercial two-way units in 100 quantities the corporate pesonnel did not want to possibly harm my purchasing of equipment by selling me an amateur radio unit that was not of the best performance.

The second unit was acquired a couple of years ago. It had the "golden screwdriver" applied by someone who was trying to make it "perform better" in the 26.000 MHz to 28.000 MHz range and, frankly, it didn't work. I got the unit for $10. After a complete realignment the unit is back to the original configuration and works quite well.

As for performance on the 10 meter band the HR-2510 does a VERY good job unlike the performance of some of the other units that were sold for use on 10 meters but were really intended for the "freebander" market.

Glen, K9STH

[kj3n]

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ June 03 2007,23:19)]Basically he wants an entry level rig with 40m, 20m and 10m and 100w for $500.
IC-718

160m-10m
100 watts

New at any dealer for about $600 with $50 mail-in rebate = $550.

So, what's the problem? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Don't like the price of the toys? Then get another hobby. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[NI3B]

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ June 04 2007,16:27)]Quote[/b] (ka3vsp @ June 04 2007,15:25)]I don't see an issue with the article....as a matter of fact these types of HF radios actually did exist at one point. The Uniden HR-2600/2510 was perfect for the newcomer...even if it was only for 10 meters.

I had a HR-2600 in my car in the early '90s even though I had ssb privileges on all bands I had a lot of fun mobile with 10 meter ssb. Of course, this was at the height of the last sun spot cycle.

I still recommend the Kenwood TS-820/830 to newcomers as an inexpensive but high quality HF rig to start with.

Best,
Brian
The Uniden was an 11 meters radio!

That not withstanding, It was 25 watts, single band only.

This guy was asking for 100 watts and 40, 20 and 10 meters.

You're not going to get that brand new for $500.
Sorry to disappoint you but the HR-2600 and 2510 were 10 meter radios that ppl modified for 11 meters.

Mine was never modified and I had hundreds of QSOs with it....on 10 meters....both ssb and cw.

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (ka3vsp @ June 04 2007,17:18)]Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ June 04 2007,16:27)]Quote[/b] (ka3vsp @ June 04 2007,15:25)]I don't see an issue with the article....as a matter of fact these types of HF radios actually did exist at one point. The Uniden HR-2600/2510 was perfect for the newcomer...even if it was only for 10 meters.

I had a HR-2600 in my car in the early '90s even though I had ssb privileges on all bands I had a lot of fun mobile with 10 meter ssb. Of course, this was at the height of the last sun spot cycle.

I still recommend the Kenwood TS-820/830 to newcomers as an inexpensive but high quality HF rig to start with.

Best,
Brian
The Uniden was an 11 meters radio!

That not withstanding, It was 25 watts, single band only.

This guy was asking for 100 watts and 40, 20 and 10 meters.

You're not going to get that brand new for $500.
Sorry to disappoint you but the HR-2600 and 2510 were 10 meter radios that ppl modified for 11 meters.

Mine was never modified and I had hundreds of QSOs with it....on 10 meters....both ssb and cw.
'VSP, all 11 meter radios were either CB or 10m/all band HF radios.

[n9dsj]

Quote[/b] (kj3n @ June 04 2007,14:05)]Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ June 03 2007,23:19)]Basically he wants an entry level rig with 40m, 20m and 10m and 100w for $500.
IC-718

160m-10m
100 watts

New at any dealer for about $600 with $50 mail-in rebate = $550.

So, what's the problem? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Don't like the price of the toys? Then get another hobby. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I have an IC-718 as a backup to the FT-102 and IC-746Pro -- for the price it does very well on 160-10 with 100 watts ouput (at 100% duty cycle). Only thing I would add is a 250 Hz (or something close) filter for CW or digital modes.

Not sure what people want from *new* entry level rig but I am jaded as "new entry level rig" was an oxymoron when I started.

73,

Bill N9DSJ

[KA4DPO]

Quote[/b] (WA2ZDY @ June 04 2007,13:24)]There aren't more IC-718 class rigs because they won't sell in great numbers.

#Novices started with junk rigs almost universally. # (The rigs that are selling like gold now!) #

On the infrequent occassion when the Novice on the other end said he was using a Heath SB series rig, a Drake 4- line or very rare, a Collins, we stood up and took notice. #And almost always, that was a Novice who had a higher class ham in the house. # Novices used the junk rigs until they upgraded, thus learning how to make the most of the least, how to keep the stuff working, and also being sure they were really interested before spending the big bucks.
Excellent point Chris. Most of us had pretty modest CW rigs as Novices and had to learn how to get the most out of them. That meant developing operator skills, it was just as hard then as it is now to break a CW pileup with a 25 watt signal and a dipole.

When I was a Novice I would have sliced off my lower left appendage to get an S Line or a Drake B Line. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[ne3r]

I guess it is a valid argument, especially for a young person. I can remember feeling the same way; in fact, it is one of the things that kept me from moving past no code tech for so long. Now, it is easy to get to general, so I guess more folks are upgrading, and then realizing that the affordable options are not to be found at HRO.

The worst part is, new hams are putting all of their money into a rig, but not putting the effort into the antenna system. Now, antennas are basically free, but it takes time and effort, and some expense on feed line and connectors.

This is why my club has a club station, new hams can get on the air on several bands, as well as try out some equipment. We have an Alinco DX 77 and a Kenwood TS-180S in the shack, with a horizontal wire type antenna and a cushcraft R7 vertical. Folks can get an idea of what it is like to operate an older rig, like the Kenwood, or a newer no frills rig with the Alinco. This also gives some on air time to enjoy before you get your own rig. Also in the process the benefits and limitations of the two different antennas become apparent, the wire is great for local and regional contacts on 40 & 80, but for DX, you’ll want to use the vertical on 40 or 20 & up.

QRP can be frustrating for someone new, the good news is, techs aren’t stuck in with the broadcasters on 40 anymore, the best band for newbie QRP if you ask me, one could get on 40 CW with 5 watts for about $100 easy (maybe $150 max).

73
Joe
NE3R

[kr9d]

There's a Kenwood TS-430S in the Swap Meet forum right now for $325. That's a great price for a dual-VFO, general receive, solid-state transceiver. Plus, it has knobs instead of buttons and is much more instructive for a newbie.

And a brand new Kenwood TS-50 is $550.

In real dollars (i.e., adjusted for inflation), modern radios are far cheaper than they used to be. That TS-430S sold for $800-odd 1983 dollars.

Rick "noting that price is controlled by the buyer, not the seller" Denney

[KB1KIX]

Quote[/b] (WA2ZDY @ June 04 2007,14:24)]There aren't more IC-718 class rigs because they won't sell in great numbers.
'nuff said - period.

If the 718 sold in great numbers - you don't think the others would jump on the bandwagon? Of course they would.

The 706 MKIIG was OK when it was a $750.00 rig - but no way is it worth 200 more than that - I'm glad I picked it up when I did.

I was thinking of a little 718 to keep here in the shack - not a bad little radio.

But bottom line - if you want new - that's all you have in that price point.

Though, I have to say, I'm having a ball building radios (I'm new to that side of our hobby).

I will build my first transmitter based on the bitx20.

Picked picked up the boards from Far Circuits at Dayton - but that is more for learning, rather than out of the box practicality.

Jonathan

[k4kro]

In 30 years of buying and using amateur and commercial band radios I have been amazed at the disparity of pricing and features available in equipment for different bands and uses. This is something the major and minor manufacturers of radio equipment don't like to talk about. This week I received a new catalog from AES and noticed that Yaesu has a full-featured 50 watt 2 meter mobile including a morse code trainer for $124.99. Amazing! Yet they would have you believe that a simple 25 watt CW-only rig for 40 and 80 meters is impossible to produce or sell. How many more 2 meter mobiles does the world need? I know the amateur market is smaller and their job is to sell as much as they can to the few amateurs available but I can't imagine that such a rig would be serious competition to their upscale offerings. If Cobra and Uniden can make money selling CB, FRS and VHF Marine band radios at popular prices then they and the "Big 3" can produce decent 1 or 2 band CW/SSB HF rigs for something other than 10 meters in the sub-$150 class.

As for the Icom 718, this is about all you could ask for at less than $600. Ten tanks of gas, an X-Box and a pair of sneakers or a cheap laptop can be had for the same price. Except that your kids wouldn't want to be seen with a $600 laptop.

[VE7NOT]

Can't buy an hf setup for $500http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Give me a break.

I paid $80 for a used Kenwood TS-130v. (I use it for backup) I can't think of a more basic hf radio almost. As for a cheap antenna the following is required:

100' of speaker wire (two wires in one http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )

Some coax with one end chopped off.

Electricians tape

There now you have the simplest dipole I ever built. But another roll off speaker wire and you can make a fan dipole I guess.

I only see around 100 dollars so far.

Oh yes a power supply. Say another 100 dollars.

Where is the $500 coming from? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[k5jat]

Quote[/b] (VE7NOT @ June 04 2007,21:06)]Can't buy an hf setup for $500http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Give me a break.
I think you're sort of missing the point. You're talking about used gear, and the original article was talking about new gear.

I think a lot of the problems with used comes from 2 things:

1) Hamfests or Swapfests only come around so often. If you need a rig now, then new is about the only option when there isn't a swapfest going on.

2) eBay prices are way too high. I understand that HAMS put a lot of value on their gear, but pricing it up to almost the price of a new rig is ridiculous. Don't get me started on bidding wars.

We had a local swapfest and picnic here a few weeks ago. I picked up a TS-430S and PS-30 for about $350 total at the SK sale going on there. So yes it can be done, but sometimes you don't have the time to wait around for the next hamfest when the next event is 2 weeks away.

I think YaeComWood, or even a smaller player, would do very well to accommodate the new and upgrading HAMS with cheaper, all-mode, single and dual-band HF rigs. Attracting these new HAMS with decent quality rigs that are priced to the sweet-spot would greatly benefit everyone.

73, Jay KE5NRH

[W1GUH]

Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ June 03 2007,14:28)]Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ June 03 2007,20:49)]Quote[/b] (kd7msc @ June 03 2007,22:44)]You can pick up a used 820 or similar for less than $400 and in my opinion is 10 times the HF rig these new $500 starter rigs are. There are enough black plastic boxes on the market.

Real Radios Glow!!
Yes, that is certainly true!

Buying used rigs also puts fewer of them in the landfill.
I'm not sure the older, "previously owned" tube rigs are such a good idea for the "newbies."
# #They haven't been exposed (poor choice of words) to the hazards of high voltage, and CAN be a danger to themselves, through no fault of their own. #There are enough hazards associated with the solid state rigs (RF burns DO hurt!) that they need some technical expertise and knowledge under their belt before they take on hollow state devices.
# #After all is said and done, I'd much rather consider someone a "newbie appliance operator" than an "SK." #At least a NAO can learn; an SK doesn't have that option.


# #BTW, if the person originally portrayed thought HF rigs are expensive, let him try to find a GOOD VHF/UHF all-mode rig! #Mine cost 90% more than my HF rig. #Good equipment, hollow OR solid state, ain't cheap!
Hmmmmm....the norm in 1960 was 12, 13, and 14 year-olds building, fixing, working with the likes of DX-20's, 35's, and 40's, Globe Chiefs, and, some of the more lucky ones, DX-100's. #I can't think of one instance where that accidental intimate contact with either RF or HV caused permanent damage. #Was it because of our youth? #Are people feebler today than they were back then and can no longer withstand these incidents?

My god...me and all of my friends would be dead if the so-called "dangers" inside a boat anchor were as bad as they're made out to be.

(I'm specifically talking about the voltages typically on 6146's and 807's)

But then, we're also dead because

1) We'd never even heard about the nonsense of a
# #bicycle helmet.

2) Rode in the front seats of our cars without (gasp!) a seat belt. #AND SOME OF US EVEN STOOD UP ON THE FRONT SEAT!

etc....etc...etc

The voltages in boat anchors (except, of course the HV in an amp....that can be instantly lethal) aren't really all that dangerous. #Scary and painful....for sure. #But one "bite" and you get the message.

[N8CPA]

Quote[/b] (W1GUH @ June 05 2007,02:30)]My god...me and all of my friends would be dead if the so-called "dangers" inside a boat anchor were as bad as they're made out to be.

(I'm specifically talking about the voltages typically on 6146's and 807's)

But then, we're also dead because

1) We'd never even heard about the nonsense of a
# #bicycle helmet.

2) Rode in the front seats of our cars without (gasp!) a seat belt. #AND SOME OF US EVEN STOOD UP ON THE FRONT SEAT!

etc....etc...etc

The voltages in boat anchors (except, of course the HV in an amp....that can be instantly lethal) aren't really all that dangerous. #Scary and painful....for sure. #But one "bite" and you get the message.
My wife and I have been discussing this quite a bit lately.

We used to delight over broken thermometers--because we could play with the mercury. The more thermometers broken, the better, because there was more mercury to work with. But, right now, a local restaurant has been closed for a week because a puddle of Hg was found in a restroom. They called back all of the patrons who were there on the day of the discovery to check their shoes for Hg residue, along with their car floormats, and they have now expanded the bug hunt to their homes.

We also used to ride in the backseat of our parents' cars, standing up while the car was in motion. Both of our parents chain smoked, and the windows would be rolled up in winter.

The DDT truck--actually, a recycled surplus Jeep with an attachment to spray clouds of the stuff for insect control--would drive through our neighborhoods, and kids--look ma! No helmets!--would ride bikes through the clouds for the fun of it.

And I'm wondering now if maybe playing with mercury, breathing clouds of DDT and secondhand smoke, might have made me smart enough to know, that a license grant only applied to the use of Amateur frequencies, not a guarantee that I could immediately afford a radio.
I knew I'd be a "poor man in a rich man's hobby" and that has never impeded my enjoyment. But then, when I needed it, my parents gave me paddlin', not ritalin.

Smoke 'em if you got 'em.

[K8YZK]

Yes the newer radios that do everything except log the contact for you(I know the computer does that now) are expensive, even for me, as I can't shell out $10000 for one, but I think there are enough basic(DX-77,IC-718)type radios around for the beginner. Like others have said their are great used radios here on QRZ for sale, let alone the other for sale boards. Also the numerous hamfest where one can purchase a new radio.
Right now in my shack I have one radio out of 4 sitting here that I bought new. I have a Juptier that I bought used from TT,TS-570S I swapped for, Drake TR-4 I bought, and the one I bought new is a IC-703+.

I just wish I had the money in 1966 to buy that Collins KWM2A and accessories that I wanted.

Kurt

[AC0H]

Quote[/b] (KB3JGU @ June 03 2007,22:35)]I must say I disagree N2RJ -- I think the central gist of his letter had a point. He's talking about an entry entry level rig. This is fairly barebones, Like the IC-718 except similar. Frankly there are not enough of them in this market. There's really not a lot of mid-range good new equipment out there. It's either one extreme or the other.

I see both your points, but I feel you misinterpreted his general gist. Whats wrong with offering a "starter" package?
I read the article when I got my QST and wasn't surprised. Some people aren't going to be happy till you give them EVERYTHING!

$549 for an IC-718 (entry level rig) is too expensive (???), yet, I'll bet the same Ham wouldn't bat an eye at dropping almost the same amount on a good dual band VHF/UHF rig or half that on a dually HT.

[N8CPA]

I must have Hawaii on my mind. Every time I see this thread listed in the T&O list, I read it as "Wahine, Wahine, Wahine." It makes me think, "Bikini, bikini, bikini." Then, I'm disappointed when I read it.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KI4POT]

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ June 03 2007,20:19)]Suffice to say I'm disappointed that some of today's new hams think that you have no options to get on the air unless you have a lot of money.
This might be why (from a post at eham, but I've seen similar sentiments several times):

However I suggest you spend at least, MINIMUM, $2,500 on your primary radio and buy ONLY FROM the big three (Yaesu, Icom or Kenwood). Forget the rest.

Gee, no wonder folks think they can't afford amateur radio...

Chris

[AG3Y]

My "primary radio" is still an Icom 720a that I bought, used, but in like new condition, over 20 years ago for well under a thousand dollars. Figuring the number of years of pleasure that radio has given me, I would say that I got a REAL BARGAIN ! !

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[KA4DPO]

OK, the notion that one can't assemble a working HF station for $500.00 or less is a crock and we all know it. As for tube rigs being dangerous that's a cop out. As GUH pointed out there was no solid state stuff in the 50s and early 60s. I built tube rigs as a novice one that ran 750 Volts on the plate. I got bit a couple of times but learned very quickly to stay away from the business end of B+ when a rig was plugged in and turned on. I learned a lot about radio by fixing and working on old tube gear.

Anyone who thinks they have to have the best stuff for a startup station is immature. The best analogy I can think of is the guy with a 30 handicap who buys a $3000.00 set of clubs to "make him a better player". I learned with a $25.00 set of DX Tourneys that forced you to hit the ball square or end up with a terrible shot. It made me a 4 handicapper and while I do have expensive clubs now, I can still beat most guys with a set of K-Mart specials because I learned the right way.

Same thing for Amateur radio. If you want to be a ham then learn how be a good radio operator first. When you get good at it and truely enjoy it then you can justify putting a lot of money in it.

[KE5FRF]

Quote[/b] (AC0H @ June 05 2007,07:46)]Quote[/b] (KB3JGU @ June 03 2007,22:35)]I must say I disagree N2RJ -- I think the central gist of his letter had a point. He's talking about an entry entry level rig. This is fairly barebones, Like the IC-718 except similar. Frankly there are not enough of them in this market. There's really not a lot of mid-range good new equipment out there. It's either one extreme or the other.

I see both your points, but I feel you misinterpreted his general gist. Whats wrong with offering a "starter" package?
I read the article when I got my QST and wasn't surprised. Some people aren't going to be happy till you give them EVERYTHING!

$549 for an IC-718 (entry level rig) is too expensive (???), yet, I'll bet the same Ham wouldn't bat an eye at dropping almost the same amount on a good dual band VHF/UHF rig or half that on a dually HT.
Or a $600 "leenyar".

I don't see prices stopping most of these guys from buying more power.

[KE5FRF]

I'll add that learning how to use something requires actually owning and USING it. It is a silly notion to say that new hams shouldn't own tube rigs because they are dangerous. I learned to swim when the instructor threw me in the water and told me to start kicking. People today are no less capable of learning about electronics than 40 years ago. They're just too intimidated. Sometimes everyone here gripes about the "appliance operator", but we're too scared to show someone how not to be.

[KB1KIX]

Quote[/b] (KI4POT @ June 05 2007,11:34)]Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ June 03 2007,20:19)]Suffice to say I'm disappointed that some of today's new hams think that you have no options to get on the air unless you have a lot of money.
This might be why (from a post at eham, but I've seen similar sentiments several times):

However I suggest you spend at least, MINIMUM, $2,500 on your primary radio and buy ONLY FROM the big three (Yaesu, Icom or Kenwood). Forget the rest.

Gee, no wonder folks think they can't afford amateur radio...

Chris
I wouldn't leave this discussion to new hams.

In fact, I hear more new hams wanting to buy appliances - the old timers around hear far more complain about rigs than newcomers to the hobby.

Buy from the big three - hell no!

I buy my toys (VHF/UHF portable HF) from the big three.

I'm sticking with TenTec for my real radio.

Quality is unbeatable and it's American made to boot!

My toys are YaeComWood.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jonathan

[AC0H]

You can also look at this from the perspective of quality.
Just how good is a starter station with a cheap radio going to be. Yes, the RCI 10m radios were all mode but do you suppose the owners of those rigs would be willing to hook a spectrum analyzer up and see just how "good" they were?

I doubt it.

Save your money, buy a decent radio, and quit whining.
You get what you pay for. I think the IC-718 is a damn fine starter rig for the money. It's basically an IC-706MkIIG without 6,2, and440 in a bigger box.

BTW, the Kenwood TS-520 my father bought back in 1975 retailed for $535. I've got it now and it's still running on the original finals.

[KD6NIG]

I wouldn't want to dissapoint anyone, so when I decide to sell my radios, I will use the Doctor Evil method and sell them all for.....

ONE MILLION DOLLARS!

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (W1GUH @ June 04 2007,23:30)]Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ June 03 2007,14:28)]Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ June 03 2007,20:49)]Quote[/b] (kd7msc @ June 03 2007,22:44)]You can pick up a used 820 or similar for less than $400 and in my opinion is 10 times the HF rig these new $500 starter rigs are. There are enough black plastic boxes on the market.

Real Radios Glow!!
Yes, that is certainly true!

Buying used rigs also puts fewer of them in the landfill.
I'm not sure the older, "previously owned" tube rigs are such a good idea for the "newbies."
They haven't been exposed (poor choice of words) to the hazards of high voltage, and CAN be a danger to themselves, through no fault of their own. There are enough hazards associated with the solid state rigs (RF burns DO hurt!) that they need some technical expertise and knowledge under their belt before they take on hollow state devices.
After all is said and done, I'd much rather consider someone a "newbie appliance operator" than an "SK." At least a NAO can learn; an SK doesn't have that option.


BTW, if the person originally portrayed thought HF rigs are expensive, let him try to find a GOOD VHF/UHF all-mode rig! Mine cost 90% more than my HF rig. Good equipment, hollow OR solid state, ain't cheap!
Hmmmmm....the norm in 1960 was 12, 13, and 14 year-olds building, fixing, working with the likes of DX-20's, 35's, and 40's, Globe Chiefs, and, some of the more lucky ones, DX-100's. I can't think of one instance where that accidental intimate contact with either RF or HV caused permanent damage. Was it because of our youth? Are people feebler today than they were back then and can no longer withstand these incidents?

My god...me and all of my friends would be dead if the so-called "dangers" inside a boat anchor were as bad as they're made out to be.

(I'm specifically talking about the voltages typically on 6146's and 807's)

But then, we're also dead because

1) We'd never even heard about the nonsense of a
bicycle helmet.

2) Rode in the front seats of our cars without (gasp!) a seat belt. AND SOME OF US EVEN STOOD UP ON THE FRONT SEAT!

etc....etc...etc

The voltages in boat anchors (except, of course the HV in an amp....that can be instantly lethal) aren't really all that dangerous. Scary and painful....for sure. But one "bite" and you get the message.
NO, Amateurs aren't "feebler" or less capable than today. But they ARE less well trained technically. Are there ANY questions in the pools regarding safety around HV?
Minimizing the danger of HV, or even medium voltage (<300 Volts) is taking an all too cavalier attitude about safety in general.
Sure, back in the days of our Globe Challengers, DX-40's, HJeath Kits and Knight Kits, we ran the same hazards, but the handbook and other sources were rife with stories and parables about the hazards and safety procedures. How many new operators even know the saying "KEEP ONE HAND IN YOUR POCKET," yet alone know the reason? Is it even in the current ARRL Handbook?
A while ago an Extra (a "full code Extra" of over 15 years at the time) ran a post that he wanted to pay someone to replace the tubes in his linear, because he was too afraid of the HV to do it himself. I could only think... well I won't say. But unless he were physically challenged, I see no excuse. (Either that, or there was something wrong with the amp, and wanted to blame it on someone' else's repair...)
While I'm all for technical knowledge and expertise of all hams, new and old alike, I would much rather new hams develop good operating skills first, and then work on increasing technical knowledge. Technical skills and knowledge are meaningless if an operator hasn't developed good operating practices.

You point out "The norm" in 1960. Unfortunately, this is 47 years later, and the training (quality AND quantity-wise) of new hams is FAR different than it was in the past.

[ab8yy]

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ June 04 2007,09:27)]Quote[/b] (ka3vsp @ June 04 2007,15:25)]I don't see an issue with the article....as a matter of fact these types of HF radios actually did exist at one point. The Uniden HR-2600/2510 was perfect for the newcomer...even if it was only for 10 meters.

I had a HR-2600 in my car in the early '90s even though I had ssb privileges on all bands I had a lot of fun mobile with 10 meter ssb. Of course, this was at the height of the last sun spot cycle.

I still recommend the Kenwood TS-820/830 to newcomers as an inexpensive but high quality HF rig to start with.

Best,
Brian
The Uniden was an 11 meters radio!

That not withstanding, It was 25 watts, single band only.

This guy was asking for 100 watts and 40, 20 and 10 meters.

You're not going to get that brand new for $500.
When did the HR2600 become 11 meters? That is an excellent 10 meter rig. I have the radio shack version of it - the ONLY way it will operate on 11 meters is if you modify it. But then, every radio, with the exception of very few, can be modified - so don't blame the radio on being able to operate on 11 meters. The early FT101's came out of the box with 11 meters on them! I had one - I know that. In fact, I rescued that radio from a CBer who used it before he was in college to work 11 meters on! He gave me the radio since it was just collecting dust and knew I could use it. I made my first CW contact on that rig with a long wire and tuner way back in 94!

Steve

[ab8yy]

Quote[/b] (ke5nrh @ June 04 2007,19:08)]Quote[/b] (VE7NOT @ June 04 2007,21:06)]Can't buy an hf setup for $500http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Give me a break.
I think you're sort of missing the point. You're talking about used gear, and the original article was talking about new gear.

I think a lot of the problems with used comes from 2 things:

1) Hamfests or Swapfests only come around so often. If you need a rig now, then new is about the only option when there isn't a swapfest going on.

2) eBay prices are way too high. I understand that HAMS put a lot of value on their gear, but pricing it up to almost the price of a new rig is ridiculous. Don't get me started on bidding wars.

We had a local swapfest and picnic here a few weeks ago. I picked up a TS-430S and PS-30 for about $350 total at the SK sale going on there. So yes it can be done, but sometimes you don't have the time to wait around for the next hamfest when the next event is 2 weeks away.

I think YaeComWood, or even a smaller player, would do very well to accommodate the new and upgrading HAMS with cheaper, all-mode, single and dual-band HF rigs. Attracting these new HAMS with decent quality rigs that are priced to the sweet-spot would greatly benefit everyone.

73, Jay KE5NRH
Well I have to comment on ebay and purchasing radios. There is no reason if you keep your eyes open that you can't get a really super duper deal there. You have to keep at it and keep looking until you stumble onto something that someone really just wants to dump.

About 5 years ago, I purchased two HF rigs on ebay. I have them both today and I'm using both of them still. Especially the DX70. This is an excellent rig from Alinco. At the same time I purchased this rig, Radio Shack was selling this on the floor in our town anyway - for 1200.00. I know that's slightly higher than the retail was from Alinco - about 1099 I think at that time. This little beauty was purchased on ebay from a ham that didn't like it for a mobile rig for only 400.00 including shipping! Now, there's a great deal. This is 160 to 10 meters AND 6 meters in one radio at 100 watts. I have made tons and tons of contacts with this thing thru two license upgrades as well as lots of digital contacts - for which it performs flawlessly.

Another great deal I got was on an Alda 103. Never even heard of this gem. Three bands HF - SSB and CW. This is also a 100 watt rig. Paid all of 40 bucks for it. Ad said it needed a little work and TLC. Got it and took it to work with me one night - while I was at the TV station as engineer so we had all the cool gadgets and equipment - scope and meters and so on. For about 5 dollars worth of parts, got this thing transmitting as well. I made well over 75 contacts with this radio before purchasing the Alinco. The Alda is still sitting on my radio desk and hooked up. I sometimes use it to monitor one band while working another one on the Alinco.

Good deals can be had. And I think NEW hams - no matter what the class is - should be playing with something used to start out with. It's one way to learn your way about a radio and making some minor repairs to one before graduating to a better and more expensive radio.

As far as QRP is concerned - I guess some have totally forgotten - it isn't the radio that makes the contact it is the antenna! Put your efforts into a really good antenna - if you have room, unlike myself in an apartment - and you'll get out no matter how little power you have!

Steve

[K8YZK]

When did the HR2600 become 11 meters? That is an excellent 10 meter rig.

I agree about the HR2600, I have one and used it in the early 90's mobile in San Antonio Tx, and worked a lot of dx mobile, let alone stateside stations. I still have the rig, and it will be going back into the vehicle within the next year or so.

[ab8yy]

Quote[/b] (AC0H @ June 05 2007,01:46)]Quote[/b] (KB3JGU @ June 03 2007,22:35)]I must say I disagree N2RJ -- I think the central gist of his letter had a point. He's talking about an entry entry level rig. This is fairly barebones, Like the IC-718 except similar. Frankly there are not enough of them in this market. There's really not a lot of mid-range good new equipment out there. It's either one extreme or the other.

I see both your points, but I feel you misinterpreted his general gist. Whats wrong with offering a "starter" package?
I read the article when I got my QST and wasn't surprised. Some people aren't going to be happy till you give them EVERYTHING!

$549 for an IC-718 (entry level rig) is too expensive (???), yet, I'll bet the same Ham wouldn't bat an eye at dropping almost the same amount on a good dual band VHF/UHF rig or half that on a dually HT.
There should be a way to filter out the posts from those that think they are better than anyone else and then post nonsense related back to license class again!


Steve

[W5HTW]

Valid stories about DDT and mercury. DDT is still in use in some places and is the best pesticide ever created. And not that harmful to humans. You can still buy it legally in Mexico and smuggle it into the USA.

As to mercury, anyone who has ever done any gold mining is a close friend of mercury. I carried a six pound plastic bottle with me when I had claims in the Colorado mountains. You could find it at any mining supply store. I bet you couldn't find it today anywhere.

That was 30 years ago and I don't roll around the floor of my house. (I do, though, weigh a lot more than I did back then. Hmmm.)

Been hit by 350-750 volts a few times. Not fun, but it is a learning experience.

Amateur radio has changed, that is for certain. Depends upon one's viewpoint whether it is for the better or the worse. I think, though, in "the day" very few of us expected new rigs. We traded, we hustled, whatever we could do. I have traded a broken reel tape recorder for a rig, and a 51 Plymouth sedan for an RCA AR-88 receiver. Traded a P38 pistol for a DX100B.

I have now owned only three new HF rigs (plus a couple of new VHF rigs) in my ham life of 51 years. I built an HW-100, bought a new Icom 706 when they first came out, and now have an FT897D. Everything else I was ever on HF with, was used. No, not quite. For my high school graduation my parents bought me a brand new Johnson Viking II, a couple of months before graduation. But I went in the Air Force a week after graduation and that radio has probably less than 25 hours operation on it when it was sold.

It is true that today people want to start at the top, whether it is licensing, or whether it is the radio equipment. Very few are interested in "working up the ladder" because they want instant gratification, "the best, right now."

Heathkit had an idea that worked. The single banders of the HW32 series. Quite a few of them sold and quite a few are still around today. A lot of people were happy with them. There may could be a market for such a radio today, perhaps 50 watts output, single band, SSB only. But could it be produced cheaply enough, and would the market really support it?

If I were going to design a radio that could appeal to the masses (and that is what we have to appeal to today, what ham radio has become) I'd start with a single band design, but with selectable SSB, and an output of 50 watts. I would then produce filter sets (we used to do it with plug in coils) that could be added, to add bands. I believe such a radio could be marketed for under $300 in the single band version, and possibly band addition sets for $50 bucks each. In fact, for $300, one may could put in a switching power supply. It wouldn't have any great filters, or built in keyer, or speech processing or DSP, or dual VFOs. But it would be new, it would be expandable, and it would satisfy the "I've gotta have new" crowd.

This kind of thing is already done with some of the QRP kits. Why not just modify the circuit for 50 watts, and leave the extra band module capability intact?

But would it sell? Everyone wants a brand new, 100 watt, all band, all mode, every-gadget radio.

Kinda like teens today. How many teens drive an old car to school? They all have new Chevys, Fords, big 4wd pickup trucks, and lots of shiny steel. Check your school. See if you can find, in the student parking lot, a 1979 Ford, or a 1981 Plymouth, or a 84 Dodge. They start wanting new by the time they are 12.

Ed

[K0RGR]

Quote[/b] (WA3KYY @ June 04 2007,10:24)]Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ June 04 2007,13:14)]I agree that there are certainly a lot of nice used rigs out there to choose from at almost any price level. I've bought and sold several good 'starter rigs' in the $200 class in reent years.

Unfortunately, my radios were not 'mint' collectible condition. They just worked OK. They had scratches on them. Somebody might have smoked around them years ago. Some had noisy or 'flaky' controls.

I think the IC-718 at $600 is a very attractive box.

If Techs continue to learn the code, there might be a market for an inexpensive CW-only rig that covers 80/40/15 and 10 meters. I imagine Ten Tec is already looking at this, and Elecraft could have a contender by repackaging the K1 to operate the Tech bands and come up with a 40-50w amplifier.
The K1 already operates on the Tech bands "out of the box". Remember, on 80, 40, 15 and 10, Techs have the same CW privleges as Generals and the K1 covers those with the appropriate filter boards. I believe you can order the 4-band version with 80/40 and 15/10 as the bands of choice.

I don't see Elecraft offering a 40-50W amp kit for these anytime soon, but then I did not expect the K3 either. However, the HF Pack amps work very well with the K1 and are only a little more complicated to build than a K1.

73,
Mike WA3KYY
Of course there are simpler and much less expensive CW-only kits. I was just looking at the RockMite which sells for $29. It's a crystal-controlled 1/2 watt CW rig. It wouldn't take much for a newbie to hook one of those up to computerized CW.

[ka5piu]

Hello.

Over a period of time I was able to get my station together.
Everything can do 11 meters, AM even.
I fire up the almost KWM-2 on 11 meters AM, this being the military model there were some changes.
I had to add the plate modulator.
But, for around $100 bucks in the late 70's it was just what I needed.
I got a power supply from a KWM-1 that was smashed in shipping to power the radio and an intercom amp for modulation.
Did anybody care? will the FCC get upset?
I operate at 26.620 MHz, a CAP frequency.
I later got into 28.385 MHz USB.
As this is the crystal controlled model, the parts from the broken KWM-1 were used to revive a VFO unit that was intended for some other collins radio.
I traded the VFO for a VFO for the KWM-2 along with some other collins stuff.
Now I had a VFO, a could really work the ham bands, great, but my antennas were monobands for 4.5 MHz and 26 MHz.
So, I got a tape measure dipole.
The total investment of all of the radios up to that point was under $200.
I worked with that as my primary station right up to the TS-430.
Now, a good condition KWM-2a, along with a crystal controlled unit, all accessories, including a VLF converter and VFO/SWR meter/patch is worth?
I also have all of the stuff that came with the KWM-1.
So, buying used may not be all that bad.

[NI3B]

Quote[/b] (K8YZK @ June 05 2007,18:26)]When did the HR2600 become 11 meters? #That is an excellent 10 meter rig.

I agree about the HR2600, I have one and used it in the early 90's mobile in San Antonio Tx, and worked a lot of dx mobile, let alone stateside stations. I still have the rig, and it will be going back into the vehicle within the next year or so.
The HR-2600 is a 10 meter radio. Don't worry about the misleading replies.

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (ka3vsp @ June 05 2007,21:10)]Quote[/b] (K8YZK @ June 05 2007,18:26)]When did the HR2600 become 11 meters? That is an excellent 10 meter rig.

I agree about the HR2600, I have one and used it in the early 90's mobile in San Antonio Tx, and worked a lot of dx mobile, let alone stateside stations. I still have the rig, and it will be going back into the vehicle within the next year or so.
The HR-2600 is a 10 meter radio. Don't worry about the misleading replies.
Like yours...

No radio is 11m freeband stock.

[NI3B]

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ June 05 2007,22:11)]Quote[/b] (ka3vsp @ June 05 2007,21:10)]Quote[/b] (K8YZK @ June 05 2007,18:26)]When did the HR2600 become 11 meters? #That is an excellent 10 meter rig.

I agree about the HR2600, I have one and used it in the early 90's mobile in San Antonio Tx, and worked a lot of dx mobile, let alone stateside stations. I still have the rig, and it will be going back into the vehicle within the next year or so.
The HR-2600 is a 10 meter radio. Don't worry about the misleading replies.
Like yours...

No radio is 11m freeband stock.
LOL! Ya gotta love this hobby! Just a bunch of yahoos who think they know something!

[kr9d]

Quote[/b] (ab8yy @ June 05 2007,15:26)]Well I have to comment on ebay and purchasing radios. There is no reason if you keep your eyes open that you can't get a really super duper deal there.
The prices on ebay are controlled by buyers, not sellers, and therefore reflect current market conditions. Radios are still cheap.

I paid $375 for a TS-430S, $225 for a Kenwood TM733A dual-band VHF/UHF rig, and $399 for an Ameritron 811, all in decent working condition, and all within the last few months. These are not steals, but they are solid deals that one would expect at a hamfest, and they would get as much if I sold them on ebay. Nobody is getting ripped off. It's not fair to compare something on ebay with something that one obtains from a grieving widow or non-ham son of an SK or a hamfest junk dealer trying to unload the last bits before packing up. Sometimes one benefits from luck, but luck usually requires considerable patience--more patience than waiting for the next hamfest.

Rick "who has been disappointed by stuff bought at hamfests, too" Denney

[k0pvw]

GigaParts has the IC718 HF for $599, and you get a $50 rebate so that brings the price down to $549! YOu can pay more than that for a mobile V/U rig! I am looking at one of these myself for a new radio in the house and leave my 706 in the truck! The only draw back I have with this bare bones radio is it lacks 6 meters, other than that its a great radio. Rob

[AC0H]

Quote[/b] (ab8yy @ June 05 2007,17:31)]Quote[/b] (AC0H @ June 05 2007,01:46)]Quote[/b] (KB3JGU @ June 03 2007,22:35)]I must say I disagree N2RJ -- I think the central gist of his letter had a point. He's talking about an entry entry level rig. This is fairly barebones, Like the IC-718 except similar. Frankly there are not enough of them in this market. There's really not a lot of mid-range good new equipment out there. It's either one extreme or the other.

I see both your points, but I feel you misinterpreted his general gist. Whats wrong with offering a "starter" package?
I read the article when I got my QST and wasn't surprised. Some people aren't going to be happy till you give them EVERYTHING!

$549 for an IC-718 (entry level rig) is too expensive (???), yet, I'll bet the same Ham wouldn't bat an eye at dropping almost the same amount on a good dual band VHF/UHF rig or half that on a dually HT.
There should be a way to filter out the posts from those that think they are better than anyone else and then post nonsense related back to license class again!


Steve
What "nonsense" are you referring to?
I didn't ever refer to anyone's license class in either of my previous posts. You ASSumed it was a slam at Technicians. Take the chip off your shoulder and get some counseling for your obvious inadequacy issues.

Apparently I'm not the only one who thinks whining about having to spend $500 on an HF radio is ridiculous if you've already spent that much on a dual band VHF/UHF mobile or home station setup. They came up with the money once, if they want to get on HF bad enough they can do it again.

[W0LPQ]

Collins did not make ANY KWM-2/2A that would do AM. Period. The "military" model radio was identical to those in any amateur radio store. Collins did not make any KWM-2/2A with any 60 position switch.

[W0BKR]

Plenty of used gear out there in that price range, only everyone wants the higher end for little to nothing, not realizing many of the used gear out there is just as good if not better then some of the high end.

All about perspective.

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (ka3vsp @ June 05 2007,21:16)]Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ June 05 2007,22:11)]Quote[/b] (ka3vsp @ June 05 2007,21:10)]Quote[/b] (K8YZK @ June 05 2007,18:26)]When did the HR2600 become 11 meters? That is an excellent 10 meter rig.

I agree about the HR2600, I have one and used it in the early 90's mobile in San Antonio Tx, and worked a lot of dx mobile, let alone stateside stations. I still have the rig, and it will be going back into the vehicle within the next year or so.
The HR-2600 is a 10 meter radio. Don't worry about the misleading replies.
Like yours...

No radio is 11m freeband stock.
LOL! Ya gotta love this hobby! Just a bunch of yahoos who think they know something!
Like yourself?

11m ceased being a ham band in 1958.

[K3UD]

Ham radio gear has always been expensive. To put it into prospective I did the math as it concerns my first Novice station. This just covers the main equipment I had in late 1964 when I was licensed

Hallicrafters SX-110 - Original cost new - $219 - adjusted for inflation $1,424 (I purchased it new)

Heathkit Twoer - Original cost new - $50 - adjusted for inflation $325
(I purchased it new)

Heathkit DX-40 - Original cost used - $59 - Adjusted for inflation $383 (I purchased it used)

Total cost in 1964 - $329
This comes out to $2,132 in 2006.

I purchased my FT-100 used for a bit over $500 two years ago.

Quite a bargain if you ask me.


73
George
K3UD

[kj3n]

Quote[/b] (K3UD @ June 06 2007,09:13)]Ham radio gear has always been expensive. To put it into prospective I did the math as it concerns my first Novice station. This just covers the main equipment I had in late 1964 when I was licensed

Hallicrafters SX-110 - Original cost new - $219 - adjusted for inflation $1,424 (I purchased it new)

Heathkit Twoer - Original cost new - $50 - adjusted for inflation $325
(I purchased it new)

Heathkit DX-40 - Original cost used - $59 - Adjusted for inflation $383 (I purchased it used)

Total cost in 1964 - $329
This comes out to $2,132 in 2006.
Which makes an IC-746Pro a real bargain @ $1549. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Quote[/b] ]I purchased my FT-100 used for a bit over $500 two years ago.

Quite a bargain if you ask me.

Even an IC-7000 @ $1300 is a bargain, compared to $2132. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[K8YZK]

"One thing I notice is that many have already invested in equipment that's just fine, but haven't followed through with antennas".

I have to agree with this. The radio of course ia important, but if you don't have the antenna who will you work. Not sure how much of a budget he is working with and how much of a antenna he can afford or put up. Yes a simple homemade dipole will do the job.

$500 is more then enough to get setup. I saw earlier today an ad for a TS-130 for $275, add another $50 for a good used ps, $25 for supplies to make an antenna and $25 or less for a good used antenna handbook. Hey a nice basic setup, for under $500 and still enough left over to take the wife out to dinner.

I think it is more of instant gratification, then actually taking a look and seeing what is available used.

Hey it took me 30yrs to finally get the Corvette I wanted at a price I could afford.

[ab8yy]

Quote[/b] (kr9d @ June 05 2007,15:59)]Quote[/b] (ab8yy @ June 05 2007,15:26)]Well I have to comment on ebay and purchasing radios. #There is no reason if you keep your eyes open that you can't get a really super duper deal there.
The prices on ebay are controlled by buyers, not sellers, and therefore reflect current market conditions. Radios are still cheap.

I paid $375 for a TS-430S, $225 for a Kenwood TM733A dual-band VHF/UHF rig, and $399 for an Ameritron 811, all in decent working condition, and all within the last few months. These are not steals, but they are solid deals that one would expect at a hamfest, and they would get as much if I sold them on ebay. Nobody is getting ripped off. It's not fair to compare something on ebay with something that one obtains from a grieving widow or non-ham son of an SK or a hamfest junk dealer trying to unload the last bits before packing up. Sometimes one benefits from luck, but luck usually requires considerable patience--more patience than waiting for the next hamfest.

Rick "who has been disappointed by stuff bought at hamfests, too" Denney
My comment was made in response to someone saying that ebay prices were the same as new but getting something old and used. I was just making the point that ebay IS a place to find a good deal if you look hard enough. You proved it by stating a lot of the ebay stuff is in pricing of what you may find at a hamfest. That was my only point. I think we agree on that one. Not a real spectacular price, but not unfair either.

Steve

[ab8yy]

Quote[/b] (AC0H @ June 06 2007,00:51)]Quote[/b] (ab8yy @ June 05 2007,17:31)]Quote[/b] (AC0H @ June 05 2007,01:46)]Quote[/b] (KB3JGU @ June 03 2007,22:35)]I must say I disagree N2RJ -- I think the central gist of his letter had a point. He's talking about an entry entry level rig. This is fairly barebones, Like the IC-718 except similar. Frankly there are not enough of them in this market. There's really not a lot of mid-range good new equipment out there. It's either one extreme or the other.

I see both your points, but I feel you misinterpreted his general gist. Whats wrong with offering a "starter" package?
I read the article when I got my QST and wasn't surprised. Some people aren't going to be happy till you give them EVERYTHING!

$549 for an IC-718 (entry level rig) is too expensive (???), yet, I'll bet the same Ham wouldn't bat an eye at dropping almost the same amount on a good dual band VHF/UHF rig or half that on a dually HT.
There should be a way to filter out the posts from those that think they are better than anyone else and then post nonsense related back to license class again!


Steve
What "nonsense" are you referring to?
I didn't ever refer to anyone's license class in either of my previous posts. You ASSumed it was a slam at Technicians. Take the chip off your shoulder and get some counseling for your obvious inadequacy issues.

Apparently I'm not the only one who thinks whining about having to spend $500 on an HF radio is ridiculous if you've already spent that much on a dual band VHF/UHF mobile or home station setup. They came up with the money once, if they want to get on HF bad enough they can do it again.
Yes, that was the assumption that I made. It was based on the comment about the VHF/UHF radio as well as "give them everything" comment.

If this assumption was made in error, then I apologize and it didn't deserve the response which I made.

However, it did appear that the newbies were what you were referring to in that comment.

And, I agree that if someone drops that much on a VHF/UHF rig then they shouldn't be complaining about the price of an HF rig. Actually I have seen many HF rigs much cheaper than the others lately. Everything I have including VHF stuff is all used and I aquired it in used condition as well. They all work better than expected and have been very useful for many contacts over the years. Any newbie should be thankful there are lots of nice bargans to get started with.

Steve

[k0ews]

My first rig was an Icom 718, bought the year that it came out, and my first year as a ham. I couldn't have asked for a better starter rig. It's still in use today. I added a 250 Hz filter for CW and contesting, and the DSP unit, and it is a very good rig.
For a new ham, that's a great price and a great value.
I would buy this rig all over again.
I'm ready for my next rig, and it will probably be something in the "intermediate" range. Possibly a 746 Pro, or if I'm ambitious, I'll build a K-2. What I'd like is t get my hands on a good used Ten-Tec Omni VI.

[WB2WIK]

Quote[/b] (W0LPQ @ June 06 2007,05:19)]Collins did not make ANY KWM-2/2A that would do AM. Period. The "military" model radio was identical to those in any amateur radio store. Collins did not make any KWM-2/2A with any 60 position switch.
I was kinda wondering about that post, too.

Plate modulation in a KWM product? Seems that would blow up about half the parts in the PA that aren't rated for those kind of peak voltages....

WB2WIK/6

[K9STH]

PIU:

You are making comments about things that you know nothing again!

There was nothing different about the S-Line and KWM-2 series equipment that was sold to the military than that which was sold to amateur radio operators. The equipment came off the assembly line and went to whatever customer was next in line be it military, commercial, or amateur radio.

There were some modification articles in various amateur radio magazines during the late 1950s and early 1960s about making the S-Line and KWM-2 series operate on AM. Frankly, the modifications are pretty "klugey" and when the equipment is modified for AM it generally puts out less than 20 watts.

Before making such assinine remarks about Collins equipment stop and think a moment. Both W0LPQ and myself worked for Collins Radio Company. Bill for a lot longer than I did, but we both were employed by the company and definitely know a "little" about the equipment.

Glen, K9STH

[W5HTW]

Hey Bill and Glen, you guys missed a few unique models of things. I bet you didn't know about the Heath Sixer I had, that has selectable SSB, CW, and put out 60 watts. It was the military model, probably classified Secret or higher.

Then there was the Heath Apache/Mowawk mobile station I used in my Austin Healey. Bet you don't remember that one, either? It was the one made especially for the Umbamba Marines.

Ed

[W5HTW]

whoops, duplicate post.

[ka5piu]

Quote[/b] (K9STH @ June 06 2007,17:06)]PIU:

You are making comments about things that you know nothing again!

There was nothing different about the S-Line and KWM-2 series equipment that was sold to the military than that which was sold to amateur radio operators. #The equipment came off the assembly line and went to whatever customer was next in line be it military, commercial, or amateur radio.

There were some modification articles in various amateur radio magazines during the late 1950s and early 1960s about making the S-Line and KWM-2 series operate on AM. #Frankly, the modifications are pretty "klugey" and when the equipment is modified for AM it generally puts out less than 20 watts.

Before making such assinine remarks about Collins equipment stop and think a moment. #Both W0LPQ and myself worked for Collins Radio Company. #Bill for a lot longer than I did, but we both were employed by the company and definitely know a "little" about the equipment.

Glen, K9STH
Hello.

What does one call what is in essence a KWM-2A but with a crystal selector in place of the VFO knob?
And, no, I am not talking about the novice adaptor that only works with the transmitter.
This is, AFAIK, not normally an amateur model.
I call it a military model for lack of any other point of reference.
And, yes, the kludge to make the KWM-2A do AM does around 20 watts carrier.
But, how much "carrier" does SSB have?
And, yes, I know very little about collins gear.
If I did I would have not burned out the rectifiers in the KWM-1 supply shortly after getting it.
I would have not blown the speaker connecting it to an AM car radio.
But, I did replace the tubes with diodes and the speaker is a car audio rated job.
I had some tubesters to play with, not bad but not quite as good as the tubes.
But, all in all, an average user.
After all, in place of restoring a KWM-1, I parted it out, there is no way I could have rebuilt that radio.
To me, it was just a junk radio.

[WA2ZDY]

Quote[/b] (K9STH @ June 06 2007,20:06)]PIU:

You are making comments about things that you know nothing again!
Geez Glen, you and Bill are breaking my heart. I was all set to hit fleapay for one of them thar plate modulated KWM2s. Shucks, cowthief got me again.

Ok, back to reality . . .

The only thing I have issue with here is the cavalier attitude about HV. It's true, most of us got zapped a couple of times. And that was with hearing all the time to be careful. Today's new hams are NOT hearing the HV warnings we did; that alone makes it more dangerous.

Additionally, most of us were a lot younger. I was 13 the last time I got a good zap from B+ of a 6146. I truely believe that now, at age 45, that same jolt would indeed kill me.

Today's new hams tend to be older, so for them, HV would be more dangerous than it was for most of us when we were new hams.

All that aside, HV just can't be treated in a cavalie manner. EVERYONE needs to be careful around it but today the basic warnings are not an every day thing.

There's no reason new hams shouldn't buy tube rigs. I think it's a great idea, but we can't minimize the risks except by education and respect. The dangers ARE real.

[kj3n]

Quote[/b] (WA2ZDY @ June 06 2007,20:50)]The only thing I have issue with here is the cavalier attitude about HV.

... HV just can't be treated in a cavalier manner.
And all this time, I thought you were an advocate of Natural Selection. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

You disappoint me, Chris. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[ka5piu]

Quote[/b] (WA2ZDY @ June 06 2007,17:50)]Quote[/b] (K9STH @ June 06 2007,20:06)]PIU:

You are making comments about things that you know nothing again!
Geez Glen, you and Bill are breaking my heart. #I was all set to hit fleapay for one of them thar plate modulated KWM2s. # Shucks, cowthief got me again.

Ok, back to reality . . .

The only thing I have issue with here is the cavalier attitude about HV. # It's true, most of us got zapped a couple of times. # #And that was with hearing all the time to be careful. # Today's new hams are NOT hearing the HV warnings we did; that alone makes it more dangerous.

Additionally, most of us were a lot younger. # I was 13 the last time I got a good zap from B+ of a 6146. #I truely believe that now, at age 45, that same jolt would indeed kill me.

Today's new hams tend to be older, so for them, HV would be more dangerous than it was for most of us when we were new hams.

All that aside, HV just can't be treated in a cavalie manner. #EVERYONE needs to be careful around it but today the basic warnings are not an every day thing.

There's no reason new hams shouldn't buy tube rigs. # I think it's a great idea, but we can't minimize the risks except by education and respect. #The dangers ARE real.
Hello.

Somebody who is into collins was able to identify the radios in question right away.
How about a radio built for the Aviation or Marine markets?
Fixed tuned, under crystal control, as per the FCC requirements.
The gentleman who pointed this out said "Why do you think they call it Amateur Radio?"
F1= 2182 KHz, factory marked.
The answer was right in front of me all this time.

[KI4NGN]

Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ June 05 2007,15:45)]Amateur radio has changed, that is for certain. #Depends upon one's viewpoint whether it is for the better or the worse. # I think, though, in "the day" very few of us expected new rigs. #
............................
It is true that today people want to start at the top, whether it is licensing, or whether it is the radio equipment. #Very few are interested in "working up the ladder" because they want instant gratification, "the best, right now." #
..........................................
Kinda like teens today. #How many teens drive an old car to school? #They all have new Chevys, Fords, big 4wd pickup trucks, and lots of shiny steel. #Check your school. #See if you can find, in the student parking lot, a 1979 Ford, or a 1981 Plymouth, or a 84 Dodge. #They start wanting new by the time they are 12.

Ed
What's your point?

There's nothing wrong with wanting the best right out the gate. No one climbs the ladder because they want to climb....they climb because they want what is at the top.

You would have started at the top if you could have. Any of us would have.

Teens in your or my day would have loved shiny new steel! They didn't start out 'used' by choice, but went with what they (or their parents) could afford.

The desire for the best has always been there. What has changed is how many have the ability to have it.

All parents want their children to have it better then they did in life, to maybe have it easier than it was for them. Economic and technological growth have made that possible, and now we complain about our children having it exactly as we wanted it to be for them!

As a kid I wished so much that I could afford more than a Heath Twoer. Wished there was some magic that would have allowed me to afford a new HW-101. I'm sure I voiced out loud the desire for a rig like any of the better HeathKit's that didn't cost so much!

In terms of today's electronic value for the buck, I don't think the QST letter writer's comments were out of line at all. Maybe not realistic because of market realities, but it certainly doesn't impugn anyone's character to have the same desires we all did!

Mike, Raleigh, NC

[k5jat]

Quote[/b] (ab8yy @ June 06 2007,09:02)]Quote[/b] (kr9d @ June 05 2007,15:59)]Quote[/b] (ab8yy @ June 05 2007,15:26)]Well I have to comment on ebay and purchasing radios. There is no reason if you keep your eyes open that you can't get a really super duper deal there.
The prices on ebay are controlled by buyers, not sellers, and therefore reflect current market conditions. Radios are still cheap.

I paid $375 for a TS-430S, $225 for a Kenwood TM733A dual-band VHF/UHF rig, and $399 for an Ameritron 811, all in decent working condition, and all within the last few months. These are not steals, but they are solid deals that one would expect at a hamfest, and they would get as much if I sold them on ebay. Nobody is getting ripped off. It's not fair to compare something on ebay with something that one obtains from a grieving widow or non-ham son of an SK or a hamfest junk dealer trying to unload the last bits before packing up. Sometimes one benefits from luck, but luck usually requires considerable patience--more patience than waiting for the next hamfest.

Rick "who has been disappointed by stuff bought at hamfests, too" Denney
My comment was made in response to someone saying that ebay prices were the same as new but getting something old and used. I was just making the point that ebay IS a place to find a good deal if you look hard enough. You proved it by stating a lot of the ebay stuff is in pricing of what you may find at a hamfest. That was my only point. I think we agree on that one. Not a real spectacular price, but not unfair either.

Steve
Yeah, I've seen some good deals on eBay, but I've seen some bad ones too. But to be honest, buyers don't have complete control over the market as other factors play into it. Let me explain.

There are sellers that end auctions that aren't sold at what they want. There are sellers that have second accounts that bid-up their own stuff to drive the prices up so they get more money. Then you have the idiot that'll pay anything just to get that one object, even if it means going well above what it costs for a new one. Oh, and let's not forget about the ever popular snipper programs that some use to bid at the very last second to avoid paying much more. These are all very real and all of them have happened to me more than a few times since 2000.

I like "Buy it now" and I prefer it, but sometimes the price is just a little too high for my pocketbook to handle. I've tried bidding on a low bid item with a high "Buy it now" just to have the auction ended at the last second by the seller so I didn't win the item. Aren't there rules against that? Anyway, I always look at feedback too for tell-tail signs that they're not honest.

It really is buyer beware at eBay, which is why I'm nervous throwing $350 and/or more at merchandise on there. You never know if it'll be actually worth it or if you'll actually get the item at all.

Now, back to the original topic. I think the reason a lot of new hams who have the money to buy new equipment end up with these high end radios is that there really aren't any NEW low end radios that have a decent feature set. The trend with manufacturers seem to be to throw everything new into the latest models to keep prices high. It seems to me that few ever really look backward to the stuff that worked perfectly fine before to keep costs down.

I'd really love to see modular radios make it. Even better is if manufacturers could get together and make standards so parts from each can be plugged into and interact with each other, much like PC's today. You'd never have to pay for anything you'll never use, and the upgrade ability is there if you do need something. It'll never happen, but I can still dream.

That's just my take on it.

73, Jay KE5NRH

[vk6zgo]

"Z" calls in VK have only been allowed on HF since 2004.
I was so excited,that in 2005 I bought a FT301 at the local Hamfest, took it home & did very little with it till early 2006, when I bought a 20a PSU (going out on special),bought some thick speaker fig 8 from the $2 shop, made up a 20m dipole & got on air.
Total cost in AU$: # # $ 431.00, $200.00, for the FT301,$199.00 for the PSU,$2.00 for the antenna wire, & $30.00 for the RG58 & connectors.
This gave me quite a capable station on 20m, & fiddling with a 11m mobile helical whip,(larger sting fitted),gave me a fairly lousy 15m vertical--but I've had several good contacts on it.
I haven't done anything about the other (non-WARC) HF bands--tried the CB whip on 10m,not a lot of joy,probably not a lot of sigs to hear.

The FT301? Great little set, all non WARC bands,100w,nice Rx,all solid state, what else do you need in a first HF rig?
I don't have the capital to invest in the latest & greatest,& I can fix this one if anything goes wrong.
I fully recommend old transcievers,they offer good performance,along with low cost,& simplicity of operation.
Of course I'd like a FT2000 or something if money was no problem, but I'd like a Ferrari too.
73 #VK6ZGO

[K8MHZ]

My first HF rig was a Swan 350. #Cost: #Free. #It was given to me by a ham from the UP. #I still have it and it gets out much better than my other HF rig, an IC-735 which I paid $375 bucks for. #I would not part with either of them. #

Why put a grand into a radio and have no budget for antennas? #

Think about it, a cheap low power radio will put more signal into the air with a good gain antenna than an amp will on a poorly made wire antenna.

Now, if one has almost no money, then skill can compensate. #A cheap radio into a well made wire antenna will work the world. #Been there, done that, got 4 books of QSL cards to prove it. #JA on the Swan with a home brew double bazooka antenna. #Total cost of that station, $16. #Ten bucks for a used mike and six bucks for the stuff to make a mike adaptor. #All the rest of the materials I got for free or for helping out with antennas and stuff. # Wait....let me re-calculate. #The station cost me minus 34 dollars as I sold an extra power supply that I got with the radio.

[W0LPQ]

The last crystal controlled aviation VHF radio was the 17L series, which today is not certified. #The last crystal controlled aviation HF radio died long before I started. For aviation the synthesized radios started with the VHF-20 / 618M series and the HF 618S (which was AM). #Today the only certified VHF for commercial use is the 618M-5 (or 618M-4 with service bulletins to make it a -5). Yes, we know what 2182 is, although I have never seen a radio made by Collins that had 2182 on the front panel. Was it engraved or a decal / sticker someone put on?

The 17L series of crystal controlled radios was used on some maritime vessels .. but not many. #I have already donated one complete set to the museum in Michigan for an old tanker. Other than that .. Collins did not make any dedicated maritime radios. There were some of the MR HF series (some used the 208U-3 for a PA) made for ground based systems that were installed on vessels. #But, they were not dedicated to maritime use only. #We adapted to that market.

The FCC does not demand crystal control for anything. #All they specify is the tolerances, which is why most old VHF Aircraft stuff (Collins included) is no longer certified.

PIU needs to furnish pictures of said radios. #Your comments about "specialty" radios has garnered many snide remarks and outright laughs from many retired Collins people who WERE in on the design of the original KWM-1, M-2/2A and S-Lines.

As has been said ... the radios came off the line and were sent to the next order holder, whether it was for one radio or twenty. #That is how the factory worked. #The only thing special for some military orders was the suitcase(s) and HyGain TD-1 Tape Dipole antenna, RG-58C Coax, connectors, mic and 516F-2 Supply. #Some times they included a greeting if we knew where the radios were going. #I have signed sevreral for MARS stations in the Pacific. #I doubt if you have ever SEEN the old Collins factory in Cedar Rapids (or Toronto where some were built), let alone know how things even worked.

Post pictures ...

[KD6NIG]

There is a simple solution for ebay-don't spend more than what you want to spend. Period.

I don't go on there anymore, (I won't go into why, but its fraud related, happened to a relative), but if I saw a radio, I would simply bid ONCE on it, with the maximum amount I felt the radio was worth. If I got it, fine. If not, I moved on. If someone was using another account to bid it up, then they would outbid me and I'm done.

As for the whole expense thing, its pretty simple. If I want that radio that bad, I save the money, or I get something else, or I live without it. I think part of the reason you see whining like this, and massive foreclosures on houses now, is because people want things that are way beyond their means realistically.... In the good old days, if you couldn't afford something, you either took out a loan and ate it on that, or you simply...didn't get it.

Nowadays everyone wants everything and will do what they can to get it, including crying about the price. They want to live way beyond their means.

Now, I wouldn't mind having a huge house, a fancy car, and a nice $10,000 ham rig sitting on my desk with a $25,000 tower out back, but I know, realistically, there is no way thats going to happen. So I either go used, or get a lower end rig, or I simply don't get it.

I guess now that the code has gone away, they expect the FCC not only to just hand the license out, but to give a free rig away if they pass too, eh?

Oh BTW, before you even go look, I'm a NCT. And I still am. Wasn't looking for a handout on code before, and still am not now. I know I cannot put up a good HF station where I'm at, but instead of whining about it, I just deal with it http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

People really need to get off this beyond their means stuff quick or we're all going to be in trouble!

[W0BKR]

I for one would love to own a Collins S-Line or the KWM-2.

If for nothing else, the re-sell value. Only one of a few radios I know that command a respectable price when sold.

I always like the Collins gear and wish I could afford some.

[W0LPQ]

BKR, true the resale value is good ... early on was not good, as many were just dumped or sold for pennies on the dollar.

They are rugged radios. Don't know if anyone remembers the Plaisted Polar Expedition or not, but there were ads in QST and CQ showing the KWM-2A in the snow..! It got banged around pretty bad, and kept on going. Our comm center worked them daily on the MARS network. They did manage many stateside contacts via normal amateur HF.

One of the best changes was going from the solder in to the plug-in relays. When they were first built, I don't think anyone at Collins thought they would be getting as much use as they did. The military use certainly helped the decision to change, whether it was for MARS or point to point communications ... the military loved the radio.

[K9STH]

RJ:

Several things:

First of all, although the 27 MHz band ceased to be an amateur radio band for the United States in late 1957, it continued to be an amateur radio band in other parts of the world until at least the 1970s (depending on the country).

Actually, 27 MHz was NEVER a true amateur radio band. The primary allocation was land-mobile (of which the Class "D" Citizen's Radio Service is land-mobile). The secondary allocation was "medical-scientific" which meant all sorts of things including diathermy. Amateur radio was a terciary assignment. That meant that even the wideband emissions from diathermy machines had to be tolerated by amateur radio operators and amateur radio operators could NOT interfere with those types of operation.

As for the Uniden HR-2510 and HR-2600 being for freebanders: Although such operation eventually became a primary use the equipment was NOT designed for such use. Both units were built in the Phillipines by Uniden plants and the unit was designed for commercial use in other parts of the world. However, those units imported into the United States were set by the factory so that they could only be used on the 10 meter amateur radio band. Unfortunately, the modifications required to change the frequency range was "discovered" by those who wanted to use the equipment illegally. However, the modification, at least to the HR-2510 (I don't own an HR-2600 so I don't know just what it takes to change that unit) is a bit more complicated than just cutting a jumper. However, it is still not that difficult to accomplish.

By your reasoning virtually every amateur radio transceiver made these days is "freeband trash" since it is VERY easy to modify the units to cover frequencies other than the amateur radio bands.

If the HR-2510 and HR-2600 were "designed" for "freebanding" then why do they include the ability to run CW and FM as well as SSB and AM? I don't know of many "freebanders" who run CW as their mode of operation! If you look at the transceivers that are really designed for illegal operation you will see that they generally have only SSB and AM.

The performance of the HR-2510 (when it hasn't had the "golden screwdriver" applied) is actually pretty good. The receiver is at least "average" in terms of amateur radio equipment (a little better than average in my experience) and the transmitter is pretty "clean" as well. Sure, there are better units available for 10 meter operation. But, for a good "starter" 10 meter radio one can do much worse!

Glen, K9STH

[ab8yy]

Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ June 05 2007,11:45)]Amateur radio has changed, that is for certain. #Depends upon one's viewpoint whether it is for the better or the worse. # I think, though, in "the day" very few of us expected new rigs. #We traded, we hustled, whatever we could do. # I have traded a broken reel tape recorder for a rig, and a 51 Plymouth sedan for an RCA AR-88 receiver. #Traded a P38 pistol for a DX100B. #
My only thought on this comment is that if noone had new rigs in the old days - where did all of these rigs come from which are being talked about and sold at hamfests all over? Someone obviously owned and bought them new. I think the key thing here is that the kids of today are into new and name brand things. Look at the clothes they wear - everyone advertises some manufacturer of a line of clothing walking down the street. And most of it isn't very cheap. The kids today have the money to buy new, but if they are smart enough to get into ham radio - then they are smart enough to question how much to spend on a new piece of equipment.

I think a new unit without all the auto tuner built-in - keyer built in and all of that stuff COULD be manufacturered quite resonably. And the other thing is that the big three would probably sell three times more radios that way.

It can't be for fear that noone will buy the new expensive stuff, because SOMEONE will always want to outdo the others. That's just human nature. But it will help increase sales of lower end new rigs, which might be a good way to offset some of the costs of thehigher end rigs and make all prices drop slightly making the big stuff more affordable to all of us.

Just a suggestion - Yaesu - Kenwood - Icom.

Steve

[kr9d]

Quote[/b] (ab8yy @ June 06 2007,09:02)]I think we agree on that one. Not a real spectacular price, but not unfair either.
Yes, we agree. I was reinforcing your point with some recent real prices.

I keep forgetting that here on Adversarial.NET I need to actually state when I'm agreeing with someone, heh, heh.

I recall from not too long ago someone complaining that they couldn't find an Ameritron 811 for sale anywhere at any price. A few days after that, I bought one on ebay in excellent condition for less than two-thirds the discounted price of a new one. Ebay prices might not be the best possible, but Ebay does provide a convenient ham-to-ham sales venue.

Rick "who spent $750 getting on the air on HF" Denney

[ke4ky]

IN 1988..PURCHASED KNWD TS 440S FOR ROUGHLY $800 +/-

IN 2007 YOU CAN PURCHASE A KNWD TS 570SG FOR $1100 +/-

STILL A LOT OF MONEY...BUT THE RADIO YOU ARE BUYING TODAY IS MUCH BETTER IN EVERY RESPECT AND CONSIDERING TIME/INFLATION, ETC...RADIOS THESE DAYS ARE QUITE AFFORDABLE AND YOU GET A LOT FOR YOUR BUCK!!

SOMETIMES THE BEST BUY IS LIGHTLY USED GEAR....

[KB1KIX]

The only point I can add after all this is on antenna selection.

Many posted extremely valid points.

I've seen and talked to people with really poor quality rigs - but fantastic antennas!

Look at the QRP groups (of which I belong to a few) - I still learn a real lot about antennas from them at all the meetings I go to. Milliwatt transmitters gettin gout 1200+ miles - WITH BAD PROPAGATION!!!!

That's why I really like the QRP aspect of the hobby - I learn an incredible lot there!

Jonathan

[KC9GUZ]

Quote[/b] (kd7msc @ June 03 2007,20:44)]You can pick up a used 820 or similar for less than $400 and in my opinion is 10 times the HF rig these new $500 starter rigs are. There are enough black plastic boxes on the market.

Real Radios Glow!!
Kenwood TS 830S.. I paid $350.00 for mine and I LOVE it!!!!

Real radios DO glow!!!!!

These whiny guys that say HF equip is too much are not doing their homework to see whats out there thats affordable. It sounds like a lot of them will just stay on 2 meters FM with their little HT "shack on a belt".. There are too many of these guys out there already.

[ka5piu]

Hello.

I am in shock as to what Collins collectors will pay.
The HF-380 is the military model of the KWM-380.
Check out this price for a repro manual.
http://www.surplussales.com/Collins/CollKWM380-6.html
I am willing to part with both the collins operator and service manual plus as an added bonus both the field and tech manuals, all original, along with the service tools and software, for around 2k.
Radio not included.
Shipping not included.
airtime is based on the time you press the send button and ends when you press the end button.
All taxes and fees must be paid by the user.

Note: a copy of all of this will be scanned, so a repro will be at the cost of internet access.
Looking at BAMA.

[W0LPQ]

If I wanted the HF/KWM-380 manuals, I'd borrow them from my friends in Cedar Rapids.

Neither radio has 2182 stamped on it either.

They are good radios ... not great radios.

People will pay what they will for what they want. I do not want any of the HF/KWM-380's. The 75S-3B is a better receiver than the KWM-380.

[ai4ep]

whine whine

oh the high price of radios these days

Gigaparts wants $700.00 of MY money to offer me a Yeasu ft - 897 ( which not only does HF, but 6 meters, 2 meters & 440 ALL MODE in one big radio ).

Then I read about folks trying to sell their USED rigs which only does HF for $600 or more , when you can go to Gigaparts and buy a NEW radio, with a warranty for $700 plus tax.

But that dont include the desk mike, the antenna tuner, etc, which would STILL include the NEW warranty, compared to taking a chance on buying something USED that has no warranty at all .

decisions, decisions.

(sigh ) so sad. waa waa http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (K9STH @ June 07 2007,11:48)]As for the Uniden HR-2510 and HR-2600 being for freebanders: Although such operation eventually became a primary use the equipment was NOT designed for such use. Both units were built in the Phillipines by Uniden plants and the unit was designed for commercial use in other parts of the world. However, those units imported into the United States were set by the factory so that they could only be used on the 10 meter amateur radio band. Unfortunately, the modifications required to change the frequency range was "discovered" by those who wanted to use the equipment illegally. However, the modification, at least to the HR-2510 (I don't own an HR-2600 so I don't know just what it takes to change that unit) is a bit more complicated than just cutting a jumper. However, it is still not that difficult to accomplish.
Glen, my point was EXACTLY what you stated.

There is no official "11 meter" band. It is a bunch of people pirating on other peoples' frequencies.

My comment that "it is an 11 meter radio" meant that it was a radio of choice for 11m, not that it was designed specifically for freebanders.

The fact that it was designed for commercial use also means that it was designed for 11 meter use, albeit not intentonally, since the 11m freeband freqs are in fact what the freebanders use.

Just like my old Alinco DR-110 was designed for receiving cell phones (but only because it was designed for receiving japanese public safety band.)

[ka5piu]

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ June 07 2007,21:38)]Quote[/b] (K9STH @ June 07 2007,11:48)]As for the Uniden HR-2510 and HR-2600 being for freebanders: #Although such operation eventually became a primary use the equipment was NOT designed for such use. #Both units were built in the Phillipines by Uniden plants and the unit was designed for commercial use in other parts of the world. #However, those units imported into the United States were set by the factory so that they could only be used on the 10 meter amateur radio band. #Unfortunately, the modifications required to change the frequency range was "discovered" by those who wanted to use the equipment illegally. #However, the modification, at least to the HR-2510 (I don't own an HR-2600 so I don't know just what it takes to change that unit) is a bit more complicated than just cutting a jumper. #However, it is still not that difficult to accomplish.
Glen, my point was EXACTLY what you stated.

There is no official "11 meter" band. #It is a bunch of people pirating on other peoples' frequencies.

My comment that "it is an 11 meter radio" meant that it was a radio of choice for 11m, not that it was designed specifically for freebanders.

The fact that it was designed for commercial use also means that it was designed for 11 meter use, albeit not intentonally, since the 11m freeband freqs are in fact what the freebanders use.

Just like my old Alinco DR-110 was designed for receiving cell phones (but only because it was designed for receiving japanese public safety band.)
Hello.

The HR-2510, like most 10 meter only rigs, used a CPU chip intended for the global CB market.
The FCC got upset with uniden and so the HR-2600 was produced.
The HR-2600 has a custom CPU that does not contain the firmware to allow itself to be used as a CB.
But, even after that, the FCC was not happy.
And, only in the US and Canada are the scanner laws.
Japan has no limits on listening to cellphone calls.
In fact, it was a bunch of collage kids listening to cellphone calls who had discovered the plot to attack the Tokyo subway.
This information was given to the Tokyo police several times but the chief of police wanted no part of this, his US counterparts had him convinced that there would be no benefit in this and that laws prohibiting the mo