QRZ question and answer forum [Archive]

KE5FRF

06-04-2007, 02:19 AM

I'm guilty, on both counts. I'm guilty of jumping someone for asking questions that they SHOULD know the answer to, and I'm guilty of asking questions that I should know the answer to or be able to figure out on my own.

I'm guilty of making mistakes in my replies to questions, and I am guilty of correcting someone else's percieved mistake when I was actually in error. I have found that often, technical details sometimes get forgotten or overlooked, and the answer isn't always as clear as ABC.

But this is a soap box opinion, take it for what its worth, but I think internet users, specifically on our forum, are often apt to EXPECT others to do things the way THEY do things, and if someone doesn't do it that way, they are accused of being lazy.

The expression "Google is our friend" is bantered around. Well, lets think about that for a second.

Do any of you guys get irritated when you call your bank, a department store, or a utility company and get stuck punching "touchtone numbers" as you step through a recorded menu? Is it ever a situation where you have a simple question, and would prefer discussing it with a live person? I know I HATE automated phone menus, and often I'll punch "0" for operator right from the get go.

Well, perhaps its the same with some of these questions here on QRZ. Maybe some of these guys prefer discussing their questions, as simple or complex as they may be, with other human beings rather than navigating through search engine hits. Maybe these guys never "thought" that their question would envoke hostility.

Occasionally, something will come up at my work where I need to ask a question. I suppose sometimes those questions could be found in a book or on the internet. An example, with my work it sometimes helps to know the molecular weight of some chemicals. There is a chemist in my lab who can rattle that kind of thing off the top of his head. Would I be lazy to go discuss it with him rather than look it up in a book? Perhaps I'm hopeful to glean some extra tidbit of knowledge from my chemist coworker during the coarse of the conversation. Maybe the human interraction is good for me.

I think maybe its the same here on QRZ in a lot of cases. Some people are SOCIAL and prefer interracting with others rather than relying on computers for everything.

Anyway, it is truly an amazing phenomenon to watch internet discussion boards degenerate, and as I said, I've been guilty of participating in that degeneration. But maybe we need to lighten up a bit. I'm thinking the problem here is related to hams being "engineering types" who tend to be dry, mathematical, and logical to our approaches, and when someone else who may not think the same way steps accross a line, we react with some hostility.

Oh, I also realize that my comments will fall on some deaf ears and I'll probably be flamed too.

In fact, my very posting of this is a display of my own personallity trait of enjoying conversation and debate.

K8YZK

06-04-2007, 02:22 AM

I think we are all quilty of this at one time or another.

I know that there is a old saying I heard many many years ago, and that saying is The only dumb question is the one not asked.

AG3Y

06-04-2007, 02:25 AM

I was going to post this as a separate item so as not to offend anybody by implicating an individual, as in "guilt by association"! But Heath beat me to it, and I can't think of a better place in which to add these comments.

I believe that due to the influx of new operators because of the recent rules changes, we are seeing a lot of questions on here about new HF station setups.

Many of these operators are going from zero experience with HF operation, to obtaining state-of-the-art solid-state transceivers, desktop amplifiers, automatic and semi-automatic "antenna tuners", and multi-band antennas.

What is wrong with this picture? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif ?

They are woefully inadequately prepared to take on all the intricacies of setting up this complicated a station, and as a result they come on the ZED and vent their frustration with such posts as , "I'm totally confused, my SWRs go from 1.5:1 to infinity. . . .. " etc.

Then when someone suggests that they scale back their setup, read the Rules and Regulations, Instruction manual, etc., or chips in with a "smarta**" answer the "newbie" often reacts in a negative manner, ( who can blame him ? ) and a "flame war" often erupts!

May I humbly suggest that "scaling back" and "reading the manual" or "R&Regs" are some of the better suggestions that are being offered here.

Why do so many of the "newbies" seem to think that they have to set up an ultra fancy station right off the bat? Putting up a simple setup, capable of operating on one band, is so much easier than trying to get one antenna to tune from "DC to Lightwave".

Eliminate the auto-tuner unless it is built into the rig, set up a dipole tuned to one band ( 40 or if you have the room, 80 ) fed with a coax cable, don't even THINK of running an amplifier until you get real used to barefoot operation, and LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN to other operators until you can discern who is a good operator, and who isn't.

Study Rules and Regulations until you are more than just basically familiar with what the F.C.C. expects out of you over the air, and above all, TAKE IT SLOWLY AND CAREFULLY !

You will cause a lot less grief for yourself and for others, both on the ZED and over the air!

Good luck! 73, and welcome to the avocation. Jim

ai4ep

06-04-2007, 02:29 AM

YZK --- you do have a point.

and you made it in 50 words or less.

Not many folks can do that feat.

YOU DID GOOD

& so did I ( less than 35 ) !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

KE5FRF

06-04-2007, 02:37 AM

I totally agree, Jim. I've been on HF just under 2 years now, and I am still using some very basic equipment. No amp, no tower, no gain antenna. Started out with a tube final rig and learned how to adjust it properly. Got a newer SS rig and built a kit rig, but still use a manual tuner and a simple antennas and probably will for several years to come. I think taking it slow is sage advice. No need to have a pile-up buster right off the starting block!

Yes, reading the manual and reading technical books and articles, for most of us, will teach 90% of what we need to know. These are all basic things that every new AND OLD ham should CONTINUE to do, to keep up with changes in rules and in technology.

But I do think that a lot of people have a different approach to learning. Some people need a tutor, even for seemingly simple things. Add that people tend to be less sociable, less anxious to help and mentor, more consumed by their own busy lives, and you have the reason that some folks turn to internet boards to ask questions. I guess I'm saying that in some cases, patience is a virtue.

KD6NIG

06-04-2007, 02:39 AM

The other thing is that you can often find the answer on Google, but some times its written at the level of a, experienced ham. If you don't understand the topic at all, looking at some things on the internet will cause more confusion than assistance.

For example you can look up how to configure UI-View to get data off the internet. There are a few places that will help you. Some will start at the beginning, which I needed the first time I did it. Some assume you already know the program and the internet, and instruct you that way-but not everyone does.

Plus, its simply human nature to not only read something, but to bounce it off another human or 10 to make sure that you understood it right, and to get any ideas on to how to solve the problem easier. Many times if you're having a problem, you only need one little tidbit of information to solve it.

Think of it as calling internet tech support-you know your wire is bad, but the guy wants you to disconnect the router, all this stuff-it annoys the heck out of you. If someone is just dealing with a minor problem, they feel better just getting THAT solved, not dealing with a 50 step list of questions.

The other bottom line? To many hams, especially our older ones, a computer still isn't totally trusted, and they would rather interact with a human than trust what someone posts. Because we know EVERYTHING on the internet is right http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

KC9JIQ

06-04-2007, 02:43 AM

Quote[/b] ]Why do so many of the "newbies" seem to think that they have to set up an ultra fancy station right off the bat?

Because it is the AMERICAN WAY, a good example is the housing market, you can be 30 years ahead by being 40 years in debt with your three story home, two car garage and a Ham station that many envy, and your only 24 years old! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

The American way is instant gratification. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

ai4ep

06-04-2007, 02:47 AM

Folks wont lie to you here on the internet....and Hilliary will be our next president.

k3wrv

06-04-2007, 02:56 AM

Well, Bill-

After many years of hamming and other stuff, I've discovered something called the "Common Body of Knowledge" (don't put anything smaller than your elbow in your eye, the stove is hot, don't touch it, etc.).

I have no problems with most noobie posts, but there are SOME things all hams are supposed to know (like where they can operate, that dipoles should have white on the hot side and black on the ground (unless you have only green and chartreuse colored wire..., ad nauseum).

ZED is a fair substitute for a personal Elmer, and I remember a lot of my idiotic questions back in my Novice days, like "What's a VFO?" So we all need to learn! and then learn some more and even more after that.

But most of my Ham tests required knowing what it takes to set up a station, how to build a dipole, and the FCC Rules, and that's kind of the comon body of Ham Radio knowledge (not to mention how to calculate lC resonances and all that garbage).

I really try to be respectful of all noobies to ham radio, but would suggest that we all try to look up the answer at least in one book before posting it on ZED! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

WA9SVD

06-04-2007, 02:57 AM

ky5u

06-04-2007, 03:28 AM

Man I'm glad I don't do that. I don't want to hurt any feelings.

WA9SVD

06-04-2007, 03:37 AM

Heath,
There's a lot of truth in what you say.
However, it IS also true that many (not all, but many) new operators are inclined to not just jump into water over their head, but they're carrying a kilowatt amp in one hand, and a high priced transceiver in the other.
In the "old daze," (sorry to sound like an OF,) new licensees HAD to know the rules and regulations, because that was material to be asked on our exam, and we never knew word for word what question (or answer) could or would be asked.
And I don't think it's really expecting too much for operators (old and new alike) to know such basic concepts as to the frequency and modes allowed their license class.
And earlier hams DID "take it slow and easy;" many spent a year as a Novice before upgrading to General. And very, VERY, few new Generals had a legal limit amp and a shiny new transceiver before the ink of their license was dry, but that's the trend I see: there's no waiting, no time to gain operating experience, or technical knowledge, it's just "get on the air and talk." With as much power as possible.
Yet, that's precisely why there are concepts of apprentice, journeyman and master, or driver's learner permits. Each gives a person time to gain experience, with guidance from a more experienced person, and to develop and demonstrate ability before the removal of layers of restrictions. THAT has disappeared from Amateur Radio, at least in the U.S. What we have now, is the equivalent of a 16 y/o driving an 18 wheeler, or someone who's never used anything more than a pocket knife being set loose to perform as a master cabinet maker. It's possible, but highly unlikely they will succeed, at least without making a lot of mistakes (major or minor) in the process. Unfortunately, there is a subset of such people that will not take helpful hints from experienced truck drivers or carpenters (or Amateur Radio Elmers) and may even show an attitude that "you can't tell me anything, I already know it all."
Yep, that's when many of us (YOU, MYSELF, and a lot of the others here) get frustrated, upset, and even angry.
Frustrated, because we DO want to help, and often want to prevent a newbie from making a (sometimes costly) mistake; perhaps even a mistake we ourselves made in the distant (or not so distant) past. But if our helpful suggestions get rejected offhand, without consideration, then we are less likely to bother being helpful the next time.
I DO think that the reason most of us even bother answering a question is because we are to some extent concerned and even passionate about Amateur Radio, and want to see it continue well into the future, but we want to see at least a minimum of technical knowledge perpetuated in the endeavour.
If an honest question is asked, I think most times a person will get an honest answer, but when it comes to basics that every ham SHOULD know, many of us respond with what may be perceived as a disprespectful answer. That's usually NOT our intent; it IS an indication that the person should do a bit of research of knowledge they should already posess, and the answer may be more than a mere Internet forum can answer.

Getting back to the original post, I used to believe the saying about "the only dumb question..." Now I feel that is wrong. There ARE dumb questions; those are the ones that you or I or anyone SHOULD already know the answer to. But they still deserve an answer. Not just a "here's the answer, now go away," but an answer that will reinforce and expand the learning process. So sometimes that IS to read the manual, take the amp and autotuner out of the loop, or some such advice. It's meant to help the person actually develop the skill to derive the answer themselves with guidance, not just spoon feed someone with a one sentence answer.

Yes, you are right though, we do all need to lighten up a little, and try to sit back and take a deep breath before posting a reply.

Now, does anybody know how I can make a 40 Meter dipole?

w3dub

06-04-2007, 03:38 AM

Yeah, on grounding.. I was reading this stuff, and it was making absolutely no sense to me. Even the handbook, while helping out.. still wasn't answering my questions. So I come on here, ask, and didn't get much of an answer in return.

Like I said.. I'm completely not technical. So I'm starting "from scratch". All i ask is for a little patience and understanding that not all of us are engineers...

AG3Y

06-04-2007, 03:43 AM

"Now, does anybody know how I can make a 40 Meter dipole? "

Yeah, you take a 80 meter dipole and cut the ends off of it ! ! ! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

wa9cwx

06-04-2007, 03:49 AM

Actually, I was trying to think if I had ever made any mistakes........no. guess not........ http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

ANYWAY ....I will add my 4 cents to the Mix.
And it ain't pretty #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Somewhere in the age group of 20 to 30, we have a fair group of people who had EVERYTHING planned out for them, the kids who grew up with everything aleady figured out, handed out, and not really encouraged to think on their own. The group that gets bored easily if not entertained. The group that LOVES to follow orders, and NEEDS direction for everything.

There was a great segment on this on 60 Minutes a few years ago. Most significant was the need to be 'led', to be coddled, and in a controlled, group approved 'role'. #There have been countless articles on this 'entitlement' generation. Ask employers, these people are NOT self directed, and barely able to take responsibity for their #outcomes.

That is now passing, younger people are again starting to distrust authority, think for themselves, and WORK for what they want. Self direction and personal pride in achievement is again on the rise. #

'Social' passing in school, that allowed for High School grads to be able to NOT READ their own diplomas...is starting to disapear, as are automatic 'A's in school.

Anyway, a few of the 'do it for me' generation managed to get pushed into Amateur Radio, not many, but a few. And, WHERE do those few hang out..The "Web" of course...and a few of THOSE...QRZ.Com.

The more ambitious, or self #directed in that group, IF they found their way into our hobby...are ON THE AIR, or READING, or asking serious questions, or building something, IF they are on the web, they are confirming something, or researching something, they don't hang around here, hell, MOST of us wouldn't be here if the solar cycle wasn't so low...!!!

AND if they do hang around, they ask questions that are challenging, since they might feel embarrassed to ask a more basic question, justified or not.

ANYWAY, that is hardly a scientific evaluation, after all, this is the WWW, not "Science International', but I feel there is some truth to my observations.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

And yes, Heavenly Father, I ask forgiveness for all my transgressions against the helpless newbees..... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Actually, my TECHNICAL knowlege is probably somewhat lower than the average freshman in a Junior College Electronics class, so I SELDOM give any purely technical 'advice'...But I don't mind shareing opinions !!!

Frank

AB6ND

06-04-2007, 03:51 AM

It appears so many newcomers don't have a genuine interest in radio except for being able to talk over it.
As for learning elementary, and later, the advanced stuff there are dozens of sites on the internet.
Having said that I'm sure I'll be accused of being another old guy resenting newcomers.
73
ab6nd

ky5u

06-04-2007, 05:19 PM

Two things at work here:

1. The "please notice me" effect that happens on reflectors. Someone combs their limited knowledge of a subject to try to post something that will get the others to notice him/her.

2. Lack of self motivation - Which is easier... looking up and researching a topic then asking questions based on what you can't figure out or posting a message on QRZ.COM hoping someone else will do it for you?

My "theory" is that these two traits come together in the NCT upgrade after the CW test went away. You get an influx of those who have not been able to upgrade because of the code test who are already insecure and unmotivated. Therefore you're getting alot of "please notice me" (I'm a real ham now) posts from people who already have bad motivational habits.

Hints

1. If you're posting asking for help, give us a one sentence rundown on what you've already done on your own to find the info so far.

2. If you really want "newbee" help, there is a "Questions and Answers" forum here on QRZ where many of us answer simple questions for others.

3. Be careful with the "baby discovers his own belly-button for the first time" posts. Posts like "there's noise on 80M", or "when i turn my rig on static comes out the speaker", or "I worked Germany on 20M today". Yes, you're excited and we're glad, but these come under the category of "DUH!"

Please note I am not telling you what to do, merely suggesting. Thanks.

N2RJ

06-04-2007, 05:23 PM

With regards to newbies (or recent upgrades) setting up fancy, "near contest grade" stations then asking basic questions, I can explain why -

HF has always been seen by the new ham as "rolling with the big boys." It's an ego thing. If you work HF, you're a "real" ham. If you work 2 meters, repeaters and the like, you're a wannabe. Admittedly that is partially the OT's fault, but it is also the NCT/NCG/NCEs fault because they should just worry about operating their station, not what about people think.

So in light of this, when these guys are turned loose on HF, they want to make sure that they have a station that they perceive can earn them respect, so that they can be perceived as "super duper hams."

Mind you, nothing is wrong with a contest grade setup.

I just don't think it's appropriate for learning.

When you get a driver license, you practice on an old car. You don't immediately get a new, fast sports car so that you can ruin it, or injure other people when you don't learn to use it properly.

It's a little concept called "learning to crawl before you walk."

To new hams I'd suggest before getting all of this fancy, elaborate HF gear, amps, towers, beams etc. get at least the rig with a manual tuner, a dipole, SWR meter and a dummy load (for testing). Then hone your operating skills before making the next investment, which should be on improved antennas. That way you get to see what's right for you, and you can then concentrate building your station in that area.

Nothing is wrong with amps, but I really cringe when I hear newbies dealing with equipment that has the words "LETHAL VOLTAGE" all over it, especially when no real practical training is required to obtain a license now.

k3wrv

06-04-2007, 06:25 PM

Heath-
I gotta agree with AG3Y's post. These days, anybody can become a great appliance op, by going to the latest website and ordering up the best rig in the world. Much of the stuff on ZED is about instant gratification. When you're new, you want it, when you get older you realize "It don't come easy"! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

As somebody (maybe svd?) said, you wouldn't put a kid with a still ink wet drivers license in a corvette for his first car (or an 18 wheeler!) would you?

Lawyers "practice" law, doctors "practice" medicine, etc.

Noobies need to realize that a good ham station isn't built in a day, and that they don't teach how to be a good op at Yaecomwood U!

Or as Preofesser Harold Hill (in the Music Man) said, you gotta know the territory

And this isn't just about noobies - I'm a SSTVer, and see lots of OF's get on and want instant gratification.

Ya know? It really don't come easy, and you gotta learn sumptin all by youse lonesome!

n0iu

06-04-2007, 07:30 PM

I know that I was at least one of the people that inspired Heath to write this piece in the first place, thank you very much.

My view on helping people in life and not just amateur radio is best summed up by the director of the St. Patricks Center in St. Louis - an independent living skills program. (In the days before political correctness, they used to be called homeless shelters.) Anyway, they have a myriad of resources and programs for helping these people, but there is one caveat. The director was quoted in a newspaper article and I found it to be so profound that I highlighted the quote, cut out the article, laminated and framed it.

The quote says, "We refuse to work on your life harder than you are."

In other words, put forth some effort and show me you are at least trying and I will be more than willing to help you.

Scott NØIU

WA9SVD

06-04-2007, 08:03 PM

Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ June 03 2007,20:43)]"Now, does anybody know how I can make a 40 Meter dipole? "

Yeah, you take a 80 meter dipole and cut the ends off of it ! ! ! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
I know THAT. But WHICH ends? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

KE5FRF

06-04-2007, 08:11 PM

Quote[/b] (n0iu @ June 04 2007,14:30)]I know that I was at least one of the people that inspired Heath to write this piece in the first place, thank you very much.

My view on helping people in life and not just amateur radio is best summed up by the director of the St. Patricks Center in St. Louis - an independent living skills program. (In the days before political correctness, they used to be called homeless shelters.) Anyway, they have a myriad of resources and programs for helping these people, but there is one caveat. The director was quoted in a newspaper article and I found it to be so profound that I highlighted the quote, cut out the article, laminated and framed it.

The quote says, "We refuse to work on your life harder than you are."

In other words, put forth some effort and show me you are at least trying and I will be more than willing to help you.

Scott NØIU
No, Scott, I didn't start this thread with ANYONE in particular in mind!

My very first comment was that "I'm guilty" of doing the same thing. I've chided people for posting questions that seemed obvious. If anything, my reason for posting it was to remind myself to be patient and hope some others would agree.

The point is that not every situation is cut and dry. Not every time someone posts a question is there "laziness" involved. I didn't point to a specific thread, but the guy who asked about the new Tech privelages is a good example.

Think about this. We are telling this "new guy" that he should know his band privelages, that this is a requisite for being licensed. Well, seems to me by asking the question, he is TRYING to comply with that truth!

I'd be willing to wager that he doesn't even own a 10 meter rig, so it isn't like he has had any NEED to this point to even worry about band edges or privelages for 10 meters.

I'll admit right now that I have no idea what frequencies I am allowed to operate on 60 meters, because I don't use that band and do not have reason in the near future to do so. If I ever DO decide to try 60 meter phone, I'll look up the privs on the band plan. If someone asked me, I'd do the same.

I suspect that this newbie ham is not very active. For most of us, simple things like "what are my privelages on XX band" are second nature, because we use them so much. For someone who bought an HT and programmed three repeaters and thats it, this is a whole new ballgame.

I agree, it is DEFINATELY a good lesson to teach anyone that information is freely available and they ought to seek info on their own and ask questions when they are stumped, but the other side to this is that QRZ advertises the "Q&A" forum as a place for hams with questions to ask other hams. There is no warning that I'm aware of that says, "Obvious questions will not be tolerated" or "Warning, don flame retardent clothing before posting".

Many of these guys are younger or kids. Some are still in school and are still of the mindset that they should ask grown-ups questions. With so many liability lawsuits, voided warranties, and warning labels these days on everything from coffee pots to flourescent light bulbs, it is no wonder that some people are intimidated and unsure of themselves when using or installing something new. Its not neccessarily "their fault", it is the programming of society nowadays.

Anyway, all I am saying is in this particular case, the guy was really doing the right thing, he was looking to find out his new privelages rather than jumping on in and operating. He may not be a big internet user. His internet habits may be limited to callsign lookups on QRZ and that may be where he saw "Q and A forum".

Put yourself in his shoes...his logic might have been,
A: My friend told me I can use 10 meters now, he told me I could use only part of the band. (The fellow even posted the frequencies he was told he could use)
B: I guess I should ask someone else to make sure
C: I once saw a QRZ forum where I could ask other hams, I bet someone there will know.

Why do we insist that everyone else in the world has to follow the same logic patterns as you or I?

All I am saying is that in some cases, people are really doing the right thing, or at least what they THINK is the right thing, and we maybe should respect that a little more. I think there will be times where people cop an attitude or are very arrogant like posts like this:

"I need to make a dipole. I need someone to tell me how to make a dipole and post links and please be specific"

(Not far from the way some of these posts read)

Very demanding, with an air of "expectation" that we all just sit by our computers eagerly awaiting the next dipole question. Yes, those get under my skin too, and maybe they deserve to be scorned.

ab8ma

06-04-2007, 08:26 PM

Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ June 04 2007,03:37)]Now, does anybody know how #I can make a 40 Meter dipole?
Well, I just took two 20 Meter dipoles and ... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

WA9SVD

06-04-2007, 08:49 PM

Quote[/b] (KE5FRF @ June 04 2007,13:11)]Think about this. We are telling this "new guy" that he should know his band privelages, that this is a requisite for being licensed. Well, seems to me by asking the question, he is TRYING to comply with that truth!

I'd be willing to wager that he doesn't even own a 10 meter rig, so it isn't like he has had any NEED to this point to even worry about band edges or privelages for 10 meters.
Heath,
I must still mildly disagree. He was asking a question on material he was supposed to know BEFORE he received his license; that's what signing the Form 605 attests to.
A license is not a privilege to learn the rules, we are supposed to know the rules, and THEN get a license, which provides us the privilege of actually operating.
While I'm not demanding every Amateur memorize every word of §Part 97, we ARE supposed to have access to the rules either in printed or electronic form, as part of our "station records." And be familiar enough to find such basic answers as to frequency, mode, and power levels allowed our license class.
It's not really a matter of only knowing a rule when we "need" it. We should at least have immediate access to the rules, and know where to find it when we DO need it, and that's not by asking at QRZ or any other ham-friendly Web site.

I believe there would have been a different set of replies if the original post had been "I've been inactive for a while, and don't understand the recent changes... can anyone explain?"

Also, remember that sometimes replies here are meant to go beyond a personal reply to just one person, the person who asked the original question. Some answers are meant to be taken in a general context as applying to others that may have the same or similar questions.

kj3n

06-04-2007, 09:22 PM

Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ June 03 2007,22:25)]Many of these operators are going from zero experience with HF operation, to obtaining state-of-the-art solid-state transceivers, desktop amplifiers, automatic and semi-automatic "antenna tuners", and multi-band antennas.

What is wrong with this picture? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
Simple. They spent so much money on store-bought radios and antennas, but didn't "bother" with The ARRL Handbook, and/or the ARRL Antenna book.

Too pricey. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Besides, who wants to read and learn anything? That's sssooooo 19th century, you know. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

wd0ct

06-04-2007, 09:37 PM

It all went to hell sometime in the teens or 20s when someone had the bright idea of store bought receivers and then [horrors!] transmitters.

We've been getting dumber by the year ever since.

Twenty more years and hammies won't be able to tie their shoes...

lmao

kl7aj

06-04-2007, 09:47 PM

Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ June 03 2007,19:25)]I was going to post this as a separate item so as not to offend anybody by implicating an individual, as in "guilt by association"! #But Heath beat me to it, and I can't think of a better place in which to add these comments.

I believe that due to the influx of new operators because of the recent rules changes, we are seeing a lot of questions on here about new HF station setups. #

Many of these operators are going from zero experience with HF operation, to obtaining state-of-the-art solid-state transceivers, desktop amplifiers, automatic and semi-automatic "antenna tuners", and multi-band antennas. #

What is wrong with this picture? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif ?

They are woefully inadequately prepared to take on all the intricacies of setting up this complicated a station, and as a result they come on the ZED and vent their frustration with such posts as , "I'm totally confused, my SWRs go from 1.5:1 to infinity. . . .. " etc. #

Then when someone suggests that they scale back their setup, read the Rules and Regulations, Instruction manual, etc., or chips in with a "smarta**" answer the "newbie" often reacts in a negative manner, ( who can blame him ? ) and a "flame war" often erupts!

May I humbly suggest that "scaling back" and "reading the manual" or "R&Regs" are some of the better suggestions that are being offered here.

Why do so many of the "newbies" seem to think that they have to set up an ultra fancy station right off the bat? #Putting up a simple setup, capable of operating on one band, is so much easier than trying to get one antenna to tune from "DC to Lightwave". #

Eliminate the auto-tuner unless it is built into the rig, set up a dipole tuned to one band ( 40 or if you have the room, 80 ) fed with a coax cable, don't even THINK of running an amplifier until you get real used to barefoot operation, and LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN to other operators until you can discern who is a good operator, and who isn't. #

Study Rules and Regulations until you are more than just basically familiar with what the F.C.C. expects out of you over the air, and above all, TAKE IT SLOWLY AND CAREFULLY ! #

You will cause a lot less grief for yourself and for others, both on the ZED and over the air!

Good luck! #73, and welcome to the avocation. # #Jim
And, most of all...GET RID OF THE STUPID SWR METERS!

I'm dead serious. The SWR meter has caused more endless confusion for the average new ham than anything created by man or beast. If every ham had a field strength meter instead, most of the confusion would go away.

I worked all states several times before I even knew what an SWR meter was. The only indicator I had was the plate current meter on my Johnson Adventurer!

Eric

KE5FRF

06-04-2007, 09:57 PM

Quote[/b] (kl7aj @ June 04 2007,16:47)]Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ June 03 2007,19:25)]I was going to post this as a separate item so as not to offend anybody by implicating an individual, as in "guilt by association"! #But Heath beat me to it, and I can't think of a better place in which to add these comments.

I believe that due to the influx of new operators because of the recent rules changes, we are seeing a lot of questions on here about new HF station setups. #

Many of these operators are going from zero experience with HF operation, to obtaining state-of-the-art solid-state transceivers, desktop amplifiers, automatic and semi-automatic "antenna tuners", and multi-band antennas. #

What is wrong with this picture? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif ?

They are woefully inadequately prepared to take on all the intricacies of setting up this complicated a station, and as a result they come on the ZED and vent their frustration with such posts as , "I'm totally confused, my SWRs go from 1.5:1 to infinity. . . .. " etc. #

Then when someone suggests that they scale back their setup, read the Rules and Regulations, Instruction manual, etc., or chips in with a "smarta**" answer the "newbie" often reacts in a negative manner, ( who can blame him ? ) and a "flame war" often erupts!

May I humbly suggest that "scaling back" and "reading the manual" or "R&Regs" are some of the better suggestions that are being offered here.

Why do so many of the "newbies" seem to think that they have to set up an ultra fancy station right off the bat? #Putting up a simple setup, capable of operating on one band, is so much easier than trying to get one antenna to tune from "DC to Lightwave". #

Eliminate the auto-tuner unless it is built into the rig, set up a dipole tuned to one band ( 40 or if you have the room, 80 ) fed with a coax cable, don't even THINK of running an amplifier until you get real used to barefoot operation, and LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN to other operators until you can discern who is a good operator, and who isn't. #

Study Rules and Regulations until you are more than just basically familiar with what the F.C.C. expects out of you over the air, and above all, TAKE IT SLOWLY AND CAREFULLY ! #

You will cause a lot less grief for yourself and for others, both on the ZED and over the air!

Good luck! #73, and welcome to the avocation. # #Jim
And, most of all...GET RID OF THE STUPID SWR METERS!

I'm dead serious. #The SWR meter has caused more endless confusion for the average new ham than anything created by man or beast. #If every ham had a field strength meter instead, most of the confusion would go away.

I worked all states several times before I even knew what an SWR meter was. #The only indicator I had was the plate current meter on my Johnson Adventurer!

Eric
Speaking of flame threads, SWR, antennas, and such....there is an AMAZING article/thread currently on eHam about the all band doublet and feeding antennas with balanced line.

It reads very much like a Congressional debate on an emotional issue like abortion. One guy even admonished that if someone applied for a job with his company and had on their resume' that they build antennas with open feedline that he wouldn't hire them for the job. ROTFLMAO. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif Man, us hammies can really find wierd things to get emotional about. I'm thinking the dude had stock in a coax manufacturing company.

N7RJD

06-04-2007, 10:13 PM

While I agree there are a lot of times where the flaming is neither needed or wanted, then again there are some threads where the original author just won't accept an answer to his question unless it is exactly what he wanted to hear.

For an example check out this thread.

http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin....=157793 (http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=157793)

KC9JIQ

06-04-2007, 10:26 PM

Quote[/b] ]And, most of all...GET RID OF THE STUPID SWR METERS!

I'm dead serious. The SWR meter has caused more endless confusion for the average new ham than anything created by man or beast. If every ham had a field strength meter instead, most of the confusion would go away.

I worked all states several times before I even knew what an SWR meter was. The only indicator I had was the plate current meter on my Johnson Adventurer!

Eric
The SWR meter is not all that confusing! A SWR meter is very valuable to the new ham.

N4AUD

06-04-2007, 10:56 PM

I agree entirely with Heath's opening comment. I've seen people ask what appeared to be a completely reasonable question and someone had to build up their ego by belittling the questioner. Bad form...

And that discussion at eham...the "anti-ladder line" guy sure is full of himself, isn't he? He says he wouldn't hire someone who used ladder line. I say who the hell would want to work for him??? He's a smart guy. Unfortunately, smart doesn't always equate to "right." That is something that gets forgotten on these forums as well.

ki4ned

06-04-2007, 11:09 PM

i dont need to ask you guys any questions, i know everything, lol http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

KB1GYQ

06-04-2007, 11:14 PM

Quote[/b] (wd0ct @ June 04 2007,17:37)]It all went to hell sometime in the teens or 20s when someone had the bright idea of store bought receivers and then [horrors!] transmitters.

We've been getting dumber by the year ever since.

Twenty more years and hammies won't be able to tie their shoes...

lmao
Shoes have velcro now, where have you been? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

K5FH

06-04-2007, 11:23 PM

Quote[/b] (KC9JIQ @ June 04 2007,15:26)]The SWR meter is not all that confusing! #A SWR meter is very valuable to the new ham.
Yes, but that's only if the person using the meter understands what it's telling him. If not, we get questions like, "My SWRs are 1.5 to 1; is this why I can't work Krapistan with 100W and a dipole?"

Quote[/b] ]And that discussion at eham...the "anti-ladder line" guy sure is full of himself, isn't he? He says he wouldn't hire someone who used ladder line. I say who the hell would want to work for him??? He's a smart guy. Unfortunately, smart doesn't always equate to "right." That is something that gets forgotten on these forums as well.

True, especially in the threads having to do with global warming.

I have been reading the eHam forum in question, and that Chip is a real legend in his own mind. His aversion to ladder line probably stems from not being able to use it to feed one of his fractal antennas.

wa9cwx

06-05-2007, 12:23 AM

OK, SO you guys think it's OK to ID every 5 minutes, I don't think so, and I want someone to tell me where it IS ok, then I'm going to broadcast MY ID every 5 minutes, on every freq I want, just to keep those frequencies OPEN. Then I'm going to call Steve on the phone, and he is going to HAVE to show me WHERE it SAYS I can ID every five minutes....

I didn't read that thread until posted here!

UNBELIEVABLE! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Steve (WIK) should be given a medal for tolerance.... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

wa9cwx

06-05-2007, 12:47 AM

BTW
One other comment that I have not seen addressed here.
Some people have taken pride in their position that they 'just answer any question'.....well, I am not really sure how they feel about this, but isn't THAT just enabling a dependency, and promoting the situation that keeps them at the top of the heap, as the 'knowlege source'??

If those of you who have had GREAT teachers in the past, think back, WHAT did those teachers actually DO??
PROBABLY....They answered a QUESTION, with another QUESTION.....
That time honored approach is based on the FAITH, that the learner may someday surpass the teacher....the basic concept behind the forward march of knowlege, and of civilization.

Some teachers would argue that it is NEVER proper to answer a question, only challenge the questioner to seek deeper.

That may be a bit extreme for little ol' QRZ, but it IS one way to understand some of the motive behind challenges, rather than just seeing them as 'attacks'.

Frank

N7RJD

06-05-2007, 12:51 AM

Quote[/b] (wa9cwx @ June 04 2007,10:47)]They answered a QUESTION, with another QUESTION.....
Yep, it would drive you nuts but in the end was a much better teaching/learning tool.

KE5FRF

06-05-2007, 12:57 AM

Quote[/b] (wa9cwx @ June 04 2007,19:47)]BTW
One other comment that I have not seen addressed here.
Some people have taken pride in their position that they 'just answer any question'.....well, I am not really sure how they feel about this, but isn't THAT just enabling a dependency, and promoting the situation that keeps them at the top of the heap, as the 'knowlege source'??

If those of you who have had GREAT teachers in the past, think back, WHAT did those teachers actually DO??
PROBABLY....They answered a QUESTION, with another QUESTION.....
That time honored approach is based on the FAITH, that the learner may someday surpass the teacher....the basic concept behind the forward march of knowlege, and of civilization.

Some teachers would argue that it is NEVER proper to answer a question, only challenge the questioner to seek deeper.

That may be a bit extreme for little ol' QRZ, but it IS one way to understand some of the motive behind challenges, rather than just seeing them as 'attacks'.

Frank
No, I agree with this and that is DEFINATELY my approach whenever I can. I think that is the best method of teaching cuz it encourages someone to THINK. And I also think sometimes a little embarassment stirs encourages someone to break that "cycle of dependancy" that you mentioned. I agree 100%.

I just still believe that there are some cases where the question may seem so simple and ridiculous, but if you look at it from another angle, the person in question had the best of intentions. That, IMHO, is the case with the "tech privelages" thread. I'd much rather see a guy honesly ask others what the rules are rather than making assumptions and transmitting illegally. In fact, in the thread we are talking about, the guy EVEN posted the frequencies in the thread title, so it is obvious he had either read it somewhere or had been given those frequencies. IMHO, he was just seeking "confirmation".

I find the ARRL bandplan layout "non-intuitive" to read. I don't have any trouble now, but the first time I saw it I had to scratch my head a while.

wa9cwx

06-05-2007, 01:13 AM

Yep,

And it is interesting.

I am the first guy who answered the "Ten Meter privileges" post... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

I was really suprised that the original poster, and quite a few others, saw it as an attack, or 'flame'.

I have done some soul searching since seeing all the responses, and I see now where my response to him came from.

My guess is a LOT of people here are self directed, and feel that the challenges they have delt with in life, were the biggest asset in whatever success they have achieved in life.

I most certainly do.

In my life, it has ONLY been by facing SOME #kind of challenge, that I met with ANY kind of success in anything.

So much so, that I shun, avoid like the plague, ANY 'help' that isn't absolutely needed.

That attitude is tattooed in my soul, after all these years.

It isn't neccessarily the 'best' attitude, and certainly not the only way to approach life, but it IS genuinly MY approach.

My original suggestion to the guy was based only on a desire help him, to nip in the bud an attitude that I myself find repugnant, what I would call 'intellectual lazyness'.

His position, and the position of probably a LOT of questioners, is likely NOT lazyness, only a desire to get a direct answer.

I will definitly try to be sensitive to this point, before offering any response to a question again.

WA9SVD

06-05-2007, 02:32 AM

Quote[/b] (KC9JIQ @ June 04 2007,15:26)]Quote[/b] ]And, most of all...GET RID OF THE STUPID SWR METERS!

I'm dead serious. The SWR meter has caused more endless confusion for the average new ham than anything created by man or beast. If every ham had a field strength meter instead, most of the confusion would go away.

I worked all states several times before I even knew what an SWR meter was. The only indicator I had was the plate current meter on my Johnson Adventurer!

Eric
The SWR meter is not all that confusing! A SWR meter is very valuable to the new ham.
No Way will I get rid of my SWR meter! I use it to check my SWR's all the time. The trouble is, I have a lot of them running around the shack, and nobody can tell me which one to check... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

WA9SVD

06-05-2007, 02:37 AM

Quote[/b] (KB1GYQ @ June 04 2007,16:14)][quote=wd0ct,June 04 2007,17:37]It all went to hell sometime in the teens or 20s when someone had the bright idea of store bought receivers and then [horrors!] transmitters.

We've been getting dumber by the year ever since.
Nope, it started before that: When you could jump into the horse drawn carriage, drive down th the corner feed store, and order one of them new-fangled telly-graff keys like you saw in the Sears catalog, instead of having to make your own.

AG3Y

06-05-2007, 03:34 AM

Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ June 04 2007,23:32)]Quote[/b] (KC9JIQ @ June 04 2007,15:26)]Quote[/b] ]And, most of all...GET RID OF THE STUPID SWR METERS!

I'm dead serious. #The SWR meter has caused more endless confusion for the average new ham than anything created by man or beast. #If every ham had a field strength meter instead, most of the confusion would go away.

I worked all states several times before I even knew what an SWR meter was. #The only indicator I had was the plate current meter on my Johnson Adventurer!

Eric
The SWR meter is not all that confusing! #A SWR meter is very valuable to the new ham.
No Way will I get rid of my SWR meter! #I use it to check my SWR's all the time. #The trouble is, I have a lot of them running around the shack, and nobody can tell me which one to check... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
No, I'm afraid that I cannot agree with you on this particular point. In the day of "hollow-state" equipment, the matching circuits of the Pi-Network output network was capable of working into a very wide range of impedances, and simply tuning for the proper amount of plate current in conjunction with most RF output would almost guarentee that you would be able to be heard!

But along came solid-state rigs, with their built-in SWR protection circuits that would "fold back" the power output if the ratio became much more than about 1.5:1. Therefore the SWR meter became a rather important tool in the ham's arsenal!

Unfortunately, not too many of the "newbies" seem to know how to properly use the things! You see posts about "my SWRs jump around when I talk into the mic. . . ." etc., all of which indicate to me the extent of the ignorance out there. Which I find all the more baffling, since "VEESWRS" etc. seem to be a major topic of discussion in the CBer's vocabulary! I guess it is a major jump from AM ( typical modulation mode for Class D cb) to SSB ( normal mode for amateur radio ! ) and many new operators do not seem to grasp what the difference is!

Again, getting back to the main topic of this thread, when an OF tries to explain, for the umteenth time, how to measure SWR properly, the newbie needs to listen and heed the advice. Someone could have operated in "the other service" for YEARS, and never talked into an SSB rig before ! There IS a difference!

73, Jim