¿OUR QSL CARDS WHERE IS? [Archive]

N2RJ

06-02-2007, 08:18 PM

Quote[/b] (HP1IBF @ June 02 2007,15:03)]The big problem here is that the IARU does not care, and resist to know, if the corresponding member society truly represents the country’s amateur radio interest or is fulfilling its job to promote and preserve amateur radio in its country according the IARU´s purposes. I am sure Panama is not the only country where other group has been obliged to assume this responsibility for the benefit of the majority ham community in the country. It is very sad that the IARU does not WANT to revise this unjust policy, otherwise amateur radio right now would be growing in our country and no ham here would have to ask where are its QSL.

:rock:
Yes, that is basically what I am saying.

The IARU doesn't want any other club but its appointed national society to handle IARU business (which is really what the QSL bureau is) in that country, even when the current appointed national society is doing a poor job of IARU business. To them, the status quo is more important than getting the job done.

However, QSL manager is still a very good alternative. You guys should look into that. Plenty of hams are willing and able. Just check out the QSL manager offered listings on http://www.ik3qar.it

HP1IBF

06-02-2007, 09:09 PM

"Sway..."
Yes, that’s exactly the word!
Thanks, Ryan.

K8MHZ

06-02-2007, 10:12 PM

As good as our system is here, I still prefer to QSL direct.

Perhaps you should consider that as an option and simply put 'direct only with SASE and IRC' on your bio. #Panama is a fairly rare entity and I think most would not mind the extra expense of direct QSLing. #I sure would not. #If I managed a contact with you I would gladly spend the 3 bucks for the chance for a return card.

N2RJ

06-02-2007, 11:53 PM

If they tell people to put 3USD, then that encourages mail theft and people will accuse them of "DXing for dollars" or demanding payment for QSL cards.

HP1 is also not that rare. They've been quite active in a number of recent contests.

2USD is fine, and should more than cover postage costs. In fact I think even 1USD should be able to cover it. I know in Trinidad the postage cost for air mail to the USA is $3.75TTD which is about 60 cents USD. I suspect Panama would be similar.

Postage rates are more expensive in Europe because of the strong Euro, but not in the Americas.

HP1CPE

06-03-2007, 06:36 PM

I agree with the opinions of HP1IBF,HP1ALX, and is the opinion of many others HAMS in Panama that we have to do something about this we are trying to do it the way it should be but we always get wrong answers from the IARU so we are trying to notifiy the rest of the HAM COMMUNITY that it is not that we are interested in sent them the QSL cards is just that trhu the LPRA we dont receive the QSL sent by the HAMS in the rest of the world.

HP1CPE

06-03-2007, 06:44 PM

Sorry I miss one word ,you know the translation.
I must say that again:
It is not that we are NOT interested in return yours QSL cards it is only that trhu the LPRA we dont get yours.

Gus hp1cpe, thanks for your time.

K8MHZ

06-03-2007, 08:59 PM

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ June 02 2007,11:53)]If they tell people to put 3USD, then that encourages mail theft and people will accuse them of "DXing for dollars" or demanding payment for QSL cards.

HP1 is also not that rare. #They've been quite active in a number of recent contests.

2USD is fine, and should more than cover postage costs. In fact I think even 1USD should be able to cover it. #I know in Trinidad the postage cost for air mail to the USA is $3.75TTD which is about 60 cents USD. #I suspect Panama would be similar.

Postage rates are more expensive in Europe because of the strong Euro, but not in the Americas.
Three bucks was total cost, not the number of green stamps.

I won't send any more than 2 unless there is a certificate or something that requires extra postage.

N2RJ

06-03-2007, 10:57 PM

Quote[/b] (HP1CPE @ June 03 2007,13:36)]I agree with the opinions of HP1IBF,HP1ALX, and is the opinion of many others HAMS in Panama that we have to do something about this we are trying to do it the way it should be but we always get wrong answers from the IARU so we are trying to notifiy the rest of the HAM COMMUNITY that it is not that we are interested in sent them the QSL cards is just that trhu the LPRA we dont receive the QSL sent by the HAMS in the rest of the world.
Well my friend, if you are not getting a straight answer from the IARU, you can look at the alternatives.

So sorry to hear of your predicament.

But, your fellow hams are always willing to help.

cu2jt

06-04-2007, 04:50 PM

We have a little of the same problem on São Miguel Island (CU2). We have an outgoing QSL bureau which distributes outgoing QSL cards 2-3 times a year. But the incoming QSL cards are coming from REP, Lisbon and they do not distribute cards to the Azores. We have to ask people going to the continent to pay a visit and pick up the CU2 cards.

So, if you think the CU's are bad QSL-ers, then you know why. If they do like I do, reply to bureau cards, it can take a while.

We have tried to tell IARU that cards to CU2 should be distributed directly to ARA but they don't even bother to reply to our request.

Hail to LoTW !!

WA3KYY

06-04-2007, 05:37 PM

Maybe this is a chance for those of us in the ARRL to help apply some pressure. Isn't Dave Sumner, ARRL CEO, the current secretary of the IARU? If so then perhaps a query to him about these situations in HP and CU land (and others) are in order. Maybe even a few letters to QST.

73,
Mike WA3KYY

N2RJ

06-04-2007, 05:39 PM

Quote[/b] (WA3KYY @ June 04 2007,12:37)]Maybe this is a chance for those of us in the ARRL to help apply some pressure. Isn't Dave Sumner, ARRL CEO, the current secretary of the IARU? If so then perhaps a query to him about these situations in HP and CU land (and others) are in order. Maybe even a few letters to QST.

73,
Mike WA3KYY
Maybe that is what we need. Good idea.

w3wn

06-04-2007, 05:56 PM

Quote[/b] (HP1ALX @ June 02 2007,10:43)]Dears amateur radios of the world: As you know, the IARU named only one club in each country, and if this club no have good relationship with the others club in the area, #they burns, destroyed, keep in a closet for the posterity our QSL Cards that incoming from different countrys of the world.
I can not understand what the IARU keep only one corresponsal that in #this moment claudicate their activities (may be 10 years ago). Sorry and please accept my apologie in my English.[I] http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Hmmm.

IARU is made up of the national amateur radio organizations in each country. They are not "appointed," but choose to join the IARU. So it is misleading to state or imply that IARU has "appointed" one club in each area to be the QSL Bureau.

It would be more accurate to say that one of the functions of the IARU Member Society, as the national organization, is to run the incoming & outcoming QSL bureaus.

With this in mind, it seems that the beef is with the part of the national organizations that run the incoming and/or outgoing QSL bureaus. My understanding is that each IARU society has it's own methods of doing so. Some distribute cards only to members; some to all amateurs whether or not they are members; some for no or reduced fees to members but full fees to non-members; and so forth.

So... while I have full sympathy to those complaining about their incoming and/or outgoing QSL bureaus, how is complaining to the IARU going to help? Yes, the IARU HQ can talk to the member society HQ's about this or any other given issue, but because management of the QSL bureaus is an internal issue, I don't think that they have much pressure to bear.

Just sounds like this is an issue better addressed within the internal workings of the organization, something that the members of that organization can address.

...ah, you are a member of your national organization, aren't you?...

Now, if there is a poor relationship between the national organization (of ANY nation) and one of the local or regional clubs within that nation... wouldn't it be a good idea for the members of both groups to resolve their differences for the good of all? Just asking.

73

HP1ALX

06-04-2007, 07:49 PM

Quote[/b] (HP1AC @ June 02 2007,09:40)]OUR QSL CARDS.....WHERE THEY ARE?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?
Yes , IARU ,has assigned to each country an organization they have as member of their Region.
In Panama, it is LPRA. #You can confirm that in the International QSL Bureau Lists of addresses .
Now ....our local organization have not even changed their Postal Address as the local Postal Authorities have changed to every owner of a Post Office Box.
OUR QSL CARDS.......WHERE THEY ARE?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?.
Dear CAM, however the LPRA received each month several packets from USA and the rest of the world, ¿where is the packets with houndres QSL cards that you know some member accuse to hold? Thanks for your cooperation.

HP1ALX

06-04-2007, 08:00 PM

Quote[/b] (N8CPA @ June 02 2007,09:53)]Su ingles es mejor que mi espanol. #Pero--ha preguntado la oficina de posteos por la nueva dirrecion de LPRA? Tiene LPRA email?
Dear friend,
Si, la LPRA recive todas las QSL en su apartado.
THE old address is P.O. BOX No. 175, ZONE No. 8
THE new address is P.O. BOX No. 0834-00175.
As you see no is problem to the postal office, is in the same building and in the same box. The QSL no is lose, the QSL is in the hand of LPRA.
Thank you very much for your cooperation.

HP1ALX

06-04-2007, 08:13 PM

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ June 02 2007,10:09)]As far as I know, the QSL bureaus are assigned to the IARU member society in each country. #In the USA, we have ARRL, and ARRL affiliated clubs handle the QSLs for each district. #

If you're having problems, maybe it's time to take it up with the IARU directly. #

Trust me, I know what it's like in 3rd world countries where the national society is basically falling apart, and another club can't take over because they encounter resistance from the national society who already has a lot of sway in the IARU. #

The best solution is to either get your QSLs direct, or to appoint a QSL manager in a foreign country to manage your QSLs.

I'm available as a manager, and I handle direct or via bureau. Alternatively, you can go to http://www.ik3qar.it to look for one.
Dear friend,
I understand very well that you said, but please undersand that our members, no is only me, is all our members that have many activities in the band, and you know perfectly that using a QSL Manager for direct QSL, this action affect the pocket of our corresponsal (the DX Station). Everybody prefer send via Bureau. And why the LPRA do not release ours Radio Club de Panama QSL?
Thank very much for your support.

N2RJ

06-04-2007, 08:16 PM

Quote[/b] (HP1ALX @ June 04 2007,15:13)]Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ June 02 2007,10:09)]As far as I know, the QSL bureaus are assigned to the IARU member society in each country. In the USA, we have ARRL, and ARRL affiliated clubs handle the QSLs for each district.

If you're having problems, maybe it's time to take it up with the IARU directly.

Trust me, I know what it's like in 3rd world countries where the national society is basically falling apart, and another club can't take over because they encounter resistance from the national society who already has a lot of sway in the IARU.

The best solution is to either get your QSLs direct, or to appoint a QSL manager in a foreign country to manage your QSLs.

I'm available as a manager, and I handle direct or via bureau. Alternatively, you can go to http://www.ik3qar.it to look for one.
Dear friend,
I understand very well that you said, but please undersand that our members, no is only me, is all our members that have many activities in the band, and you know perfectly that using a QSL Manager for direct QSL, this action affect the pocket of our corresponsal (the DX Station). Everybody prefer send via Bureau. And why the LPRA do not release ours Radio Club de Panama QSL?
Thank very much for your support.
I agree, but many managers are OK with handling cards via the bureau.

However, ideally you should get your bureau fixed, but in the meantime a manager could help out.

N2RJ

06-04-2007, 08:23 PM

Quote[/b] (w3wn @ June 04 2007,12:56)]Hmmm.

IARU is made up of the national amateur radio organizations in each country. They are not "appointed," but choose to join the IARU. So it is misleading to state or imply that IARU has "appointed" one club in each area to be the QSL Bureau.
That isn't necessarily true.

A new club cannot, for example, come and take away the QSL bureau management from the established national IARU member society, even if it is inactive or falling apart.

Such is the situation we have in Trinidad right now. Many hams, for whatever reason, have dropped out of TTARS and joined a new club called the Trinidad and Tobago Amateur Radio League (TTARL). TTARL is VERY active and a lot of hams are flocking to them as a result. They are picking up the ball and kicking it all over the field where TTARS didn't. Allegedly this is because TTARL has huge financial backing, while TTARS has little to none.

TTARS is now a mere skeleton of what it was, not like it needed help from TTARL anyway to get there because a lot of hams were losing interest and dropping out one by one due to various issues including health.

As far as I understand, TTARL have tried to join the IARU as the member society representing 9Y and failed, because TTARS refused to give up their spot.

One of the former TTARS presidents, Noel Donawa 9Y4NED is the current treasurer of IARU-R2 as well. I'm not accusing the man, but I'm sure he's not giving his blessing to "the league" taking over.

So while it is not an appointment, it is difficult to change the representative society unless it is totally and utterly dissolved. Probably not the way official IARU rules have it, but that's definitely how it is in practice.

HP1ALX

06-04-2007, 09:43 PM

Quote[/b] (w3wn @ June 04 2007,10:56)]Quote[/b] (HP1ALX @ June 02 2007,10:43)]Dears amateur radios of the world: As you know, the IARU named only one club in each country, and if this club no have good relationship with the others club in the area, #they burns, destroyed, keep in a closet for the posterity our QSL Cards that incoming from different countrys of the world.
I can not understand what the IARU keep only one corresponsal that in #this moment claudicate their activities (may be 10 years ago). Sorry and please accept my apologie in my English.[I] :( #:(
Hmmm.

IARU is made up of the national amateur radio organizations in each country. #They are not "appointed," but choose to join the IARU. #So it is misleading to state or imply that IARU has "appointed" one club in each area to be the QSL Bureau.

It would be more accurate to say that one of the functions of the IARU Member Society, as the national organization, is to run the incoming & outcoming QSL bureaus.

With this in mind, it seems that the beef is with the part of the national organizations that run the incoming and/or outgoing QSL bureaus. #My understanding is that each IARU society has it's own methods of doing so. #Some distribute cards only to members; some to all amateurs whether or not they are members; some for no or reduced fees to members but full fees to non-members; and so forth.

So... while I have full sympathy to those complaining about their incoming and/or outgoing QSL bureaus, how is complaining to the IARU going to help? #Yes, the IARU HQ can talk to the member society HQ's about this or any other given issue, but because management of the QSL bureaus is an internal issue, I don't think that they have much pressure to bear.

Just sounds like this is an issue better addressed within the internal workings of the organization, something that the members of that organization can address. #

...ah, you are a member of your national organization, aren't you?...

Now, if there is a poor relationship between the national organization (of ANY nation) and one of the local or regional clubs within that nation... wouldn't it be a good idea for the members of both groups to resolve their differences for the good of all? #Just asking.

73
Dear, dear ham radio,
I am very extremely surprised by your asseverate. If you take a trip in the IARU WEB, you can surprise and I am sure that you change your ideas.
¿Who institution nominate the QSL Bureau in all the world? The IARU, is the same institution that nominate the representative in all country, ¿will you please observe in the IARU WEB the IARU QSL BUREAU? I can not understand why you said, nobody can obligate that I am enroll in one or other club, my organization as RADIO CLUB DE PANAMA is independent from the personal interest of the people LPRA and if the LPRA do not recognize our club as a Radio Club in Panama, why do not back our QSL? ¿Why keep in a house closet? ¿Why keep in the trunk of a car?
¿Why IARU keep silence if I send multiples reportin of the bad action of LPRA? ¿Why LPRA do not present a invoice for the incomming QSL Service? The only reason is a personal and hidden motives of envy.
The answer at your question is not my friend, we do not have any National Organization in Panama. I am a meber of the RADIO CLUB DE PANAMA, and PANAMA CANAL AMATERUR RADIO ASSOCIATION. The other club is LIGA PANAMEÑA DE RADIO AFICIONADOS that have only a active club in other province, no club in Panama City and not meeting 10 years ago.
They have Liga Radio Nacional support by IARU, however, please take me attention, ¿Do you know what is a MONITORING SYSTEM? Please read what I said to the IARU in my last letter.

Finally, I invite you to study this matter of the QSL BUREAU, for it to be properly managed as a representation of the IARU, as the same way as you have a representation of the SISTEMA DE MONITOREO (Monitoring System), by a member of Radio Club de Panama and Panama Canal Amateur Radio Association (Asociación de Radio Aficionados del Canal de Panamá), who works with much enthusiasm in favor of the Panamanian and world radio amateurs, and he is not a member of the LPRA. (I am a QSL Bureau Manager of this two clubs) The work performed by Mr. Elio Salinas as responsible of the SISTEMA DE MONITOREO in Panama, is to be commended and he does it because the LPRA, do not have anyone, since as I have told you many times, this is a club that does not meet, nor function, and is not properly registered.[I]

HP1IBF

06-05-2007, 01:18 AM

This is a very, very serious matter that affects amateur radio growth and preservation in our country and has been brought to the attention of IARU many, many times, with no results.
The IARU, organized by amateur radio for amateur radio, is missing the part that to effectively promote your and our activity in the world, requires to be aware that the members society truly represents their country amateur radio community. #If not, then what is the purpose of the IARU.
Mr. Fred Laun – K3ZO- Editor of the IARU Bulletin #conceded that there are some organizations in the IARU that long ago lost any representation of amateur radio interest in their country. #Also recognized that there are other organizations that effectively has assumed that role in the country, not only in the matter of QSL’s but in more important matters as the exchange of information between amateur community and, most important, between the amateurs community and local authorities. ¨
Panama's case is exactly the same as Trinidad and Tobago's. Is a matter of influences.
Its urgent that the IARU revise its policy, as its loosing creditability and respect very fast, at least in our country. Things that IARU needs to effectively perform its duties. Just loosing one will be the beginning of loosing them all.
Thanks

w3wn

06-05-2007, 01:48 AM

HP1ALX & HP1IBF:

Gentlemen,

With all due respect... yes, I'd say credibility is an issue here.

First, I know K3ZO, and this is the first I've ever heard of him being the editor of the "IARU Bulletin." A quick Google search only shows a handful of references to it, usually as news items on the ARRL web page. Now there is an IARU e-newsletter (which I subscribe to) but Fred is not the editor of it.

Second, again with all due respect, the IARU doesn't appoint it's member societies. They apply for membership. So I don't understand how you can demand (pretty much just on your say-so) that they "throw out" one member society and "appoint" another in their place. But that is an issue you need to take up with the IARU HQ staff; kvetching and moaning here will do no good.

Third, I don't have a clue as to why you're brining up Mr. Salinas or which organizations he does or does not belong to; nor what that has to do with anything here. And since neither of you has ever mentioned a word about this to me, why are you berating me over the monitoring system and what you claim you've said many times before? Making statements like that also strain credibility... I think you have me mixed up with someone else!

And to be perfectly honest, this sounds a lot like the rhetoric during the H8A debacle a few years ago. I can recall all sorts of emails on several DX reflectors calling those operators all sorts of nasty things, demanding they be thrown in jail, out of the country, off the air, have their licenses permanently cancelled forever and so on... all because they applied for, and received, a 1x1 call that no one else had done. And any arguments made to the contrary were met with similar comments complaining that because we disagreed with you, we couldn't possibly know anything about the situation so shut up. Let's not even discuss the on-air antics...

And come to think of it, this isn't the first time I've come across a claim on this discussion system that a certain National Society was, in effect, just another radio club and had no business claiming that it was the National Society. Interesting.

Gentlemen, the bottom line is that you are arguing from a false premise on the make up the IARU member societies. I think you need to recheck your data.

cu2jt

06-05-2007, 10:09 AM

Quote[/b] (w3wn @ June 04 2007,10:56)]...ah, you are a member of your national organization, aren't you?...

Now, if there is a poor relationship between the national organization (of ANY nation) and one of the local or regional clubs within that nation... wouldn't it be a good idea for the members of both groups to resolve their differences for the good of all? Just asking.

73
Define national. I am a member of ARA, Associação de Radioamadores dos Açores. In a sense, you might call that a national association.

The Azores is a separate DXCC entity just as e.g. US Virgin Islands or Puerto Rico and we are enjoying the same independence and self gouvernment. Indeed, the Azores is a Portuguese province but so was Mocambique, Angola and all the other Provincias Ultramarinas de Portugal.

If you look at the list of QSL bureaus in the IARU web site (http://www.iaru.org/iaruqsl.html) you will find that many countries, USA included, have several QSL bureaus.

So, the question remains: If e.g. CU2 wants to run their own QSL bureau, why do not IARU want to put it on the list and why don't they even bother to reply to such request ? It would be great for REP not to have to bother with all the CU2 cards, it would be great for the CU2 guys and it would be great for all those, who are waiting for QSL cards from CU2. Who is the looser ?

w3wn

06-05-2007, 12:53 PM

Quote[/b] (cu2jt @ June 05 2007,06:09)]Quote[/b] (w3wn @ June 04 2007,10:56)]...ah, you are a member of your national organization, aren't you?...

Now, if there is a poor relationship between the national organization (of ANY nation) and one of the local or regional clubs within that nation... wouldn't it be a good idea for the members of both groups to resolve their differences for the good of all? #Just asking.

73
Define national. I am a member of ARA, Associação de Radioamadores dos Açores. In a sense, you might call that a national association.

The Azores is a separate DXCC entity just as e.g. US Virgin Islands or Puerto Rico and we are enjoying the same independence and self gouvernment. Indeed, the Azores is a Portuguese province but so was Mocambique, Angola and all the other Provincias Ultramarinas de Portugal.

If you look at the list of QSL bureaus in the IARU web site (http://www.iaru.org/iaruqsl.html) you will find that many countries, USA included, have several QSL bureaus.

So, the question remains: If e.g. CU2 wants to run their own QSL bureau, why do not IARU want to put it on the list and why don't they even bother to reply to such request ? It would be great for REP not to have to bother with all the CU2 cards, it would be great for the CU2 guys and it would be great for all those, who are waiting for QSL cards from CU2. Who is the looser ?
Define National? Are you kidding me? What are we, a bunch of lawyers splitting hairs?

The Azores are part of Portugal (even if they are recognized by the DXCC as a separate entity for awards purposes). Therefore, would not your national organization be that of the entire nation of Portugal -- REP I believe you said?

As far as different QSL bureaus in different areas or regions go... c'mon. Let's not get ridiculous. I'm not going to waste everyone's time writing a four page dissertation on how incoming QSL cards get distributed, and what that has to do with how your national organization is organized is really getting off track here.

Or maybe I should. You guys seem to think that the IARU has some magic control over the distribution of incoming QSL cards. The reality is that the outgoing QSL bureau in each country determines how to mail or transport cards to the incoming bureaus in other countries; they don't go to some magic central sorting facility. Nor do they "appoint" a QSL bureau. List them? Sure. So do many other organizations. But "appoint" them? What ever gave you guys that notion?

So if you want CU2 cards to go direct to the CU2 incoming bureau -- which, I agree completely, makes a lot more sense -- you need to talk to the other outgoing bureaus. They probably think that all cards to all Portugese calls goes to the main REP facility and are distributed from there, as is done in many other countries and entities.

But frankly, this whole thread is starting to get silly. I'm truly sorry you guys appear to be having problems with your cards, but you're kvetching at the wrong people!

N2RJ

06-05-2007, 01:08 PM

Quote[/b] (w3wn @ June 05 2007,07:53)]Define National? Are you kidding me? What are we, a bunch of lawyers splitting hairs?

The Azores are part of Portugal (even if they are recognized by the DXCC as a separate entity for awards purposes). Therefore, would not your national organization be that of the entire nation of Portugal -- REP I believe you said?

As far as different QSL bureaus in different areas or regions go... c'mon. Let's not get ridiculous. I'm not going to waste everyone's time writing a four page dissertation on how incoming QSL cards get distributed, and what that has to do with how your national organization is organized is really getting off track here.

Or maybe I should. You guys seem to think that the IARU has some magic control over the distribution of incoming QSL cards. The reality is that the outgoing QSL bureau in each country determines how to mail or transport cards to the incoming bureaus in other countries; they don't go to some magic central sorting facility. Nor do they "appoint" a QSL bureau. List them? Sure. So do many other organizations. But "appoint" them? What ever gave you guys that notion?

So if you want CU2 cards to go direct to the CU2 incoming bureau -- which, I agree completely, makes a lot more sense -- you need to talk to the other outgoing bureaus. They probably think that all cards to all Portugese calls goes to the main REP facility and are distributed from there, as is done in many other countries and entities.

But frankly, this whole thread is starting to get silly. I'm truly sorry you guys appear to be having problems with your cards, but you're kvetching at the wrong people!
Actually, Gary raises a very valid point.

The list of QSL bureaus is published by the IARU. It is based on information supplied by each member society.

The USA has a bureau for each call district, and has separate bureaus for other areas. This makes a lot of sense because logistically it is better if each area sorts and distributes their own cards. It distributes the load.

I do think it makes sense for Azores to get its own QSL bureau. If not, then some sort of means should be made for the Portuguese national society to distribute the cards to Azores hams on a regular basis. If it means a paid subscription to the bureau, or supplying SASEs like we do in US bureaus then that would make sense.

But I do get the sense that there is some resistance from the IARU to separate Azores and Portugal.

Like I mentioned with our situation in Trinidad, in many countries the national societies are basically falling apart, and other clubs have formed and are much stronger, yet the IARU will not give up the QSL bureau assignment.

Something has to be done about this.

cu2jt

06-05-2007, 01:12 PM

I rest my case. We tried but did not succeed. I use LoTW.

w3wn

06-05-2007, 03:39 PM

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ June 05 2007,09:08)]Actually, Gary raises a very valid point.

The list of QSL bureaus is published by the IARU. #It is based on information supplied by each member society.

The USA has a bureau for each call district, and has separate bureaus for other areas. #This makes a lot of sense because logistically it is better if each area sorts and distributes their own cards. #It distributes the load. #

I do think it makes sense for Azores to get its own QSL bureau. #If not, then some sort of means should be made for the Portuguese national society to distribute the cards to Azores hams on a regular basis. #If it means a paid subscription to the bureau, or supplying SASEs like we do in US bureaus then that would make sense. #

But I do get the sense that there is some resistance from the IARU to separate Azores and Portugal. #

Like I mentioned with our situation in Trinidad, in many countries the national societies are basically falling apart, and other clubs have formed and are much stronger, yet the IARU will not give up the QSL bureau assignment.

Something has to be done about this.
Ah, but is the resistance to separating the bureaus at the IARU level or at the REP level? And is it resistance or merely entropy?

If you look at the IARU Constitution (see IARU Constitution (http://www.iaru.org/iarucnst.html) you will see no mention of the QSL bureaus directly. So I remain unconvinced that this is an IARU problem.

Is it a problem? Definitely. But let's address it where it can be addressed, and not go off on wild goose chases after the wrong people, agencies, and or organizations.

I am sorry to hear that many National organizations are in poor shape, but like anything else in life, organizations due die off from time to time. There ARE provisions in the IARU Constitution to suspend a member society that is not functioning correctly. I don't know if that will solve the QSL Bureau problem though.

And... if newer amateur organizations are forming that are now the de facto national organization, and the original national group is falling apart or disappearing, maybe the new group should explore merging with old group and taking over?

Again, this is a problem. And it can be fixed, one way or another. But fix it where it can be fixed, don't waste energy going to the wrong place to do it!

73

N2RJ

06-05-2007, 04:24 PM

The constitution doesn't have to clearly define anything. It merely has to be a guide for general operations.

However, on the IARU website, they clearly list QSL bureaus. The bureau is clearly an IARU function. Wasn't always that way, but that's how it is now.

The bottom line is that "the bureau" is still managed by the IARU.

To go and inform every incoming and outgoing bureau that CU cards should be sent to an alternate bureau instead of the REP bureau, while the IARU only lists REP will only lead to mass confusion. It is much better when a unified voice spells out where to send the cards.

Quote[/b] ]I am sorry to hear that many National organizations are in poor shape, but like anything else in life, organizations due die off from time to time. There ARE provisions in the IARU Constitution to suspend a member society that is not functioning correctly.

I can tell you from first hand knowledge that is not going to happen, unless the old society truly wants to give up its IARU position as the official member society for that country.

Quote[/b] ]I don't know if that will solve the QSL Bureau problem though.

Well, since the official route will be changed, the international ham community will have a clear direction on where to send their outgoing cards.

The USA bureau works, and it works quite well. One reason it does is because we are officially divided by call districts, and every district has its own bureau, and receives its incoming cards directly. I don't see why other countries can't follow the same model.

Quote[/b] ]And... if newer amateur organizations are forming that are now the de facto national organization, and the original national group is falling apart or disappearing, maybe the new group should explore merging with old group and taking over?

That's good, but not done for many reasons. First and foremost is that many individuals that form "breakaway" groups don't want to be associated with the old group. There is also a fear that things will break down again if they are merged with the old group, and that the old leaders will come back in power and just leave things to die. It will also probably mean that the terms and conditions of the old club will have to apply. None of the above is acceptable.

w3wn

06-05-2007, 06:14 PM

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ June 05 2007,12:24)]The constitution doesn't have to clearly define anything. #It merely has to be a guide for general operations.

However, on the IARU website, they clearly list QSL bureaus. #The bureau is clearly an IARU function. #Wasn't always that way, but that's how it is now. #

The bottom line is that "the bureau" is still managed by the IARU. #

To go and inform every incoming and outgoing bureau that CU cards should be sent to an alternate bureau instead of the REP bureau, while the IARU only lists REP will only lead to mass confusion. #It is much better when a unified voice spells out where to send the cards.

Quote[/b] ]I am sorry to hear that many National organizations are in poor shape, but like anything else in life, organizations due die off from time to time. #There ARE provisions in the IARU Constitution to suspend a member society that is not functioning correctly.

I can tell you from first hand knowledge that is not going to happen, unless the old society truly wants to give up its IARU position as the official member society for that country.

Quote[/b] ]I don't know if that will solve the QSL Bureau problem though.

Well, since the official route will be changed, the international ham community will have a clear direction on where to send their outgoing cards. #

The USA bureau works, and it works quite well. One reason it does is because we are officially divided by call districts, and every district has its own bureau, and receives its incoming cards directly. #I don't see why other countries can't follow the same model.

Quote[/b] ]And... if newer amateur organizations are forming that are now the de facto national organization, and the original national group is falling apart or disappearing, maybe the new group should explore merging with old group and taking over? #

That's good, but not done for many reasons. #First and foremost is that many individuals that form "breakaway" groups don't want to be associated with the old group. #There is also a fear that things will break down again if they are merged with the old group, and that the old leaders will come back in power and just leave things to die. #It will also probably mean that the terms and conditions of the old club will have to apply. #None of the above is acceptable.
Ah, but therein lies the logical flaw.

The IARU doesn't "run" the bureau system. It never has. It doesn't claim to. So it has no sway over how the member societies handle their incoming and/or outgoing bureaus.

Listing the known bureaus on the web site does not neccesarily mean anything.

Or to put it another way... AC6V, amongst many others, also lists known QSL bureaus. Does this imply that he runs the bureaus since he lists them?

N2RJ

06-05-2007, 06:38 PM

Quote[/b] (w3wn @ June 05 2007,13:14)]Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ June 05 2007,12:24)]The constitution doesn't have to clearly define anything. It merely has to be a guide for general operations.

However, on the IARU website, they clearly list QSL bureaus. The bureau is clearly an IARU function. Wasn't always that way, but that's how it is now.

The bottom line is that "the bureau" is still managed by the IARU.

To go and inform every incoming and outgoing bureau that CU cards should be sent to an alternate bureau instead of the REP bureau, while the IARU only lists REP will only lead to mass confusion. It is much better when a unified voice spells out where to send the cards.

Quote[/b] ]I am sorry to hear that many National organizations are in poor shape, but like anything else in life, organizations due die off from time to time. There ARE provisions in the IARU Constitution to suspend a member society that is not functioning correctly.

I can tell you from first hand knowledge that is not going to happen, unless the old society truly wants to give up its IARU position as the official member society for that country.

Quote[/b] ]I don't know if that will solve the QSL Bureau problem though.

Well, since the official route will be changed, the international ham community will have a clear direction on where to send their outgoing cards.

The USA bureau works, and it works quite well. One reason it does is because we are officially divided by call districts, and every district has its own bureau, and receives its incoming cards directly. I don't see why other countries can't follow the same model.

Quote[/b] ]And... if newer amateur organizations are forming that are now the de facto national organization, and the original national group is falling apart or disappearing, maybe the new group should explore merging with old group and taking over?

That's good, but not done for many reasons. First and foremost is that many individuals that form "breakaway" groups don't want to be associated with the old group. There is also a fear that things will break down again if they are merged with the old group, and that the old leaders will come back in power and just leave things to die. It will also probably mean that the terms and conditions of the old club will have to apply. None of the above is acceptable.
Ah, but therein lies the logical flaw.

The IARU doesn't "run" the bureau system. It never has. It doesn't claim to. So it has no sway over how the member societies handle their incoming and/or outgoing bureaus.

Listing the known bureaus on the web site does not neccesarily mean anything.

Or to put it another way... AC6V, amongst many others, also lists known QSL bureaus. Does this imply that he runs the bureaus since he lists them?
While it is true that the IARU doesn't "run" the bureau, the word of the IARU trumps all others when it comes to "where to send the cards."

In other words, if the IARU sez so, it must be true.

So it stands to reason that the IARU must be in agreement for everything to work. A DX QSL bureau is unlikely to trust what they see as a random group of hams trying to hijack a whole bunch of QSLs.

cu2jt

06-05-2007, 11:36 PM

Quote[/b] (N2RJ @ June 05 2007,11:38)]While it is true that the IARU doesn't "run" the bureau, the word of the IARU trumps all others when it comes to "where to send the cards."
OK, a last comment. When we send out QSL cards from the CU2 outgoing bureau, we run a computer program that automatically updates the QSL bureau addresses as listed in the IARU QSL bureau list. We do not question whether this is a "national" bureau or some pirate bureau. If it is in the IARU list, we trust it.

I happen to be in charge of the CU2 outgoing QSL bureau so I know.

Hence, being on the IARU list is essential for us to have the QSL service working for our members. At present, it does not. And, I have still not seen any reasonable argument why IARU not should put our QSL bureau on their list.

HP1ALX

06-06-2007, 02:06 AM

Quote[/b] (w3wn @ June 04 2007,18:48)]HP1ALX & HP1IBF:

Gentlemen,

With all due respect... yes, I'd say credibility is an issue here.

First, I know K3ZO, and this is the first I've ever heard of him being the editor of the "IARU Bulletin." #A quick Google search only shows a handful of references to it, usually as news items on the ARRL web page. #Now there is an IARU e-newsletter (which I subscribe to) but Fred is not the editor of it. #

Second, again with all due respect, the IARU doesn't appoint it's member societies. #They apply for membership. #So I don't understand how you can demand (pretty much just on your say-so) that they "throw out" one member society and "appoint" another in their place. #But that is an issue you need to take up with the IARU HQ staff; kvetching and moaning here will do no good.

Third, I don't have a clue as to why you're brining up Mr. Salinas or which organizations he does or does not belong to; nor what that has to do with anything here. #And since neither of you has ever mentioned a word about this to me, why are you berating me over the monitoring system and what you claim you've said many times before? #Making statements like that also strain credibility... I think you have me mixed up with someone else!

And to be perfectly honest, this sounds a lot like the rhetoric during the H8A debacle a few years ago. #I can recall all sorts of emails on several DX reflectors calling those operators all sorts of nasty things, demanding they be thrown in jail, out of the country, off the air, have their licenses permanently cancelled forever and so on... all because they applied for, and received, a 1x1 call that no one else had done. #And any arguments made to the contrary were met with similar comments complaining that because we disagreed with you, we couldn't possibly know anything about the situation so shut up. #Let's not even discuss the on-air antics...

And come to think of it, this isn't the first time I've come across a claim on this discussion system that a certain National Society was, in effect, just another radio club and had no business claiming that it was the National Society. #Interesting.

Gentlemen, the bottom line is that you are arguing from a false premise on the make up the IARU member societies. #I think you need to recheck your data.
Dear Sir: Thank you very much for your comments. But, what HP1IBF said where his comments not mine. I mentioned and continue to say it that the LRPA is keeping the QSL letters that came from the different bureaus of the world, and as you know are only sent to the bureaus recognized by IARU, because they only recognized one club in each country, regardless if that club is reliable or not. I sent various letters to the HQ of IARU, and they are not interested in it, and they preferred to recognized a so called club, at a national level, that only dressed up with a suit when they need to take a photograph, but that never ever will listen to you in any radio frequency.

IARU, indeed, is the one that decides who will be their representation, and since that are ok with all the stories that the representative of LRPA tell them, they simply shut up and give the appearence that all is functioning perfectly well.

What you read about Mr. Salinas, was an extract of a letter that I sent IARU several months ago. And it was to show them that the members of LPRA are nothing and did not have qualified persons, so they have to use other persons that are not members of LPRA. If you want to cover the sun with a hand you can do it, and if you do not want to understand this message is irrelevant. I am not mixing anything, I continue to demand that my and all of the other members of Radio Club de Panama, QSL cards, reach the destinataries, and not to retain the mail, which you know is a violation of the international mail laws.

I have not begin with any false premise, and I don`t have to verify any data, since I am clear and sure of my allegations. For this reason, and since I do not think you want to understand our situation in Panama, I considered this the end of your rhetoric and mine, and the mixing you made of what HP1IBF, and what I said.

With all the respect you deserved, thank you, and I will leave to rest the QRZ forum.
HPIALX.