View Full Version : What [i]IS[/i] Fascism?
To dispel confusion, I looked up what fascism is. A very interesting list was made, I post it and there are analogies that seem to be, well, creepy. Here it is.
Quote[/b] ]In a 1995 essay "Eternal Fascism", the Italian writer and academic Umberto Eco attempts to list general properties of fascist ideology.
The features of fascism he lists are as follows:
* "The Cult of Tradition", combining cultural syncretism with a rejection of modernism (often disguised as a rejection of capitalism).
How about Creationists?
Quote[/b] ] * "The Cult of Action for Action's Sake", which dicatates that action is of value in itself, and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.
Again, Creationists, as well as attacks on Media, Arts (movies and music).
Quote[/b] ] * "Disagreement is Treason" - fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action.
Remember if you disagree with Bush you were either an America Hater, Seditious or Treasonous?? I do.
Quote[/b] ] * "Fear of Difference", which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.
This looks very, very familiar. The Mexican Wall, citizen troops patrolling the border... Is there a problem? Yes. Is it being made worse. You decide.
Quote[/b] ] * "Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class", fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.
How many times have I heard about "The Great Unwashed" by Conservatives here?
Quote[/b] ] * "Obsession With a plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often involves an appeal to xenophobia or the identification of an internal security threat. He cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.
Yep. Michael Moore, Soros, MoveOn, the list is endless.
Quote[/b] ] * "Pacifism is Trafficking With the Enemy" because "Life is Permanent Warfare" - there must always be an enemy to fight.
The demonic attack of Speaker Pelosi's Middle East trip comes to mind. The lack of rabid animalistic criticism for those who were Republican also comes to mind.
Quote[/b] ] * "Contempt for the Weak" - although a fascist society is elitist, everybody in the society is educated to become a hero.
Ah, yes, the disdain for the poor. The contempt for those who aren't rich. I suppose those are our weak.
Quote[/b] ] * "Selective Populism" - the People have a common will, which is not delegated but interpreted by a leader. This may involve doubt being cast upon a democratic institution, because "it no longer represents the Voice of the People".
Disdain for the Constitution, describing it as another piece of paper.
Quote[/b] ] * "Newspeak" - fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.
Well, maybe that accounts for spelling mistakes? Unfamiliarity with words. Unable to completely spell words, like LIB, COMMIE, FACIST...
I might be wrong but this sounds all too familiar. And way too close to home. I wonder what the Ubervolk will have to say?
It is amazing how posts on here with intelligent topics get little or no responses.
I do remember the disdain for the poor in Nawlins when the poor were chided for not flying out of the area on their private jets.
Quote[/b] ]often Fascism
1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
Definition (http://www.answers.com/topic/fascism)
When it says "through terror", this says a lot to me. What was Sept 11th? I don't remember a "day on the beach".
And right here on the Zed, we have several parroting the AM talk show hosts stating that we need to respect the PATRIOT ACT rather than respect the rights of minorities.
This is unbelievable that we are having these problems in this day and age.
K7JEM
05-21-2007, 11:04 PM
Do we have elements of fascism in our society?
Sure.
Are we a fascist nation?
No.
To truly understand fascism, a person would have to study Italy and Germany prior to, and during, WWII.
We do not have centralized authority through a dictator, we don't have stringent socio-economic controls, we don't have suppression of the opposition through terror or censorship, and we don't have belligerent racism and nationalism.
We do, however, have some aspects of all of these things. Italy and Germany had most (or all) of these "qualities", and that is what set them apart as fascist nations.
Cuba has most of these things, yet they claim to be communist. China also.
Most countries run or controlled by a dictator will have many of these fascist traits.
Joe
Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ May 21 2007,10:04)]To truly understand fascism, a person would have to study Italy and Germany prior to, and during, WWII.
We do not have centralized authority through a dictator, we don't have stringent socio-economic controls, we don't have suppression of the opposition through terror or censorship, and we don't have belligerent racism and nationalism.
Hitler was a "German Chancellor", not a "dictator".
Neither men filled out an application and interviewed for the job of "dictator". They took the democracy's that they were serving and changed the rules to serve them.
It was a process.
KI4PJW
05-22-2007, 05:31 PM
Here is the "Dictator" part.
Bush takes control of continuity planning
http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007....lanning (http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007/05/13/bush-takes-control-of-continuity-planning/)
This is the finalizing of the move to have total power in the Executive. When the next "decapitating" event takes place FEMA, DHS, military all, come under the direct control of the Executive.
WILLNOTBOW!!!
KA8NCR
05-22-2007, 05:47 PM
Quote[/b] (n9xr @ May 22 2007,10:18)]Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ May 21 2007,10:04)]To truly understand fascism, a person would have to study Italy and Germany prior to, and during, WWII.
We do not have centralized authority through a dictator, we don't have stringent socio-economic controls, we don't have suppression of the opposition through terror or censorship, and we don't have belligerent racism and nationalism.
Hitler was a "German Chancellor", not a "dictator".
Neither men filled out an application and interviewed for the job of "dictator". They took the democracy's that they were serving and changed the rules to serve them.
It was a process.
Actually, he was a dictator after he was Chancellor. He used the burning of the Reichstag as a pretext for suspending rights and then used the Enabling Act to combine legislative and executive powers. Once he had that, he used the Night of Long Knives to eliminate rivals.
You know the rest of the story...
KC2KFC
05-22-2007, 05:48 PM
Quote[/b] (KI4PJW @ May 22 2007,10:31)]Here is the "Dictator" part.
Bush takes control of continuity planning
http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007....lanning (http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007/05/13/bush-takes-control-of-continuity-planning/)
This is the finalizing of the move to have total power in the Executive. When the next "decapitating" event takes place FEMA, DHS, military all, come under the direct control of the Executive.
WILLNOTBOW!!!
If it's on homelandstupidity.com it must be true.
Quote[/b] (KC2KFC @ May 22 2007,04:48)]Quote[/b] (KI4PJW @ May 22 2007,10:31)]Here is the "Dictator" part.
Bush takes control of continuity planning
http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007....lanning (http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007/05/13/bush-takes-control-of-continuity-planning/)
This is the finalizing of the move to have total power in the Executive. When the next "decapitating" event takes place FEMA, DHS, military all, come under the direct control of the Executive.
WILLNOTBOW!!!
If it's on homelandstupidity.com it must be true.
Yeah, and I will know I feel safer knowing I have...
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/d/d7/290px-Bushreadingthepetgoat.jpg
to protect me from evildoers.
Look at that man in action when the "big one" is going down!
That is LEADERSHIP!
KC2KFC
05-22-2007, 06:25 PM
Wow he looks quite a bit younger in that photo.
K6BBC
05-22-2007, 06:29 PM
Quote[/b] (n9xr @ May 22 2007,10:57)]Quote[/b] (KC2KFC @ May 22 2007,04:48)]Quote[/b] (KI4PJW @ May 22 2007,10:31)]Here is the "Dictator" part.
Bush takes control of continuity planning
http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007....lanning (http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007/05/13/bush-takes-control-of-continuity-planning/)
This is the finalizing of the move to have total power in the Executive. When the next "decapitating" event takes place FEMA, DHS, military all, come under the direct control of the Executive.
WILLNOTBOW!!!
If it's on homelandstupidity.com it must be true.
Yeah, and I will know I feel safer knowing I have...
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/d/d7/290px-Bushreadingthepetgoat.jpg
to protect me from evildoers.
Look at that man in action when the "big one" is going down!
That is LEADERSHIP!
I have always had a different take on this image. I never saw a deer caught in the headlights. What I saw was a man, ill equipped for the job, suddenly facing crisis. To me, his face reads one of panic, yet firm determination to succeed in responding correctly and strongly to the situation that was thrust upon him. He did not see the attack coming and shame on him for that. But, after his initial darting around in Air Force One, he raised and stepped forward and became a great leader for our country. This, for me, is undeniable and the great tragedy of Bush, who really had the potential of becoming A GREAT PRESIDENT.
Unfortunately, the combination of his personal weakness of character, and the people he chose to be around him, quickly diverted focus from our attackers to Iraq, which has turned into a disaster and made us weaker. Now, because of stubbornness, he cannot right the ship even though it is clear Iraq is lost.
I have said this before, this is the great tragedy of Bush who could have been a monumental leader but for a tragic flaw that brought him down.
bbc
Quote[/b] (KC2KFC @ May 22 2007,05:25)]Wow he looks quite a bit younger in that photo.
This was when he was in second-grade.
KC2KFC
05-22-2007, 07:49 PM
Quote[/b] (n9xr @ May 22 2007,12:14)]Quote[/b] (KC2KFC @ May 22 2007,05:25)]Wow he looks quite a bit younger in that photo.
This was when he was in second-grade.
That's correct he and John Kerry graduated 2 years apart.
Quote[/b] (KC2KFC @ May 22 2007,06:49)]Quote[/b] (n9xr @ May 22 2007,12:14)]Quote[/b] (KC2KFC @ May 22 2007,05:25)]Wow he looks quite a bit younger in that photo.
This was when he was in second-grade.
That's correct he and John Kerry graduated 2 years apart.
And your point is...?
I remember when I was in 1st grade. We had a 12 year old in 3rd grade. I was 2 years behind a 12 year old.
I am not getting your drift. My statement is correct. Dispute it if you like.
w2amr
05-22-2007, 10:49 PM
Quote[/b] (n2nh @ May 20 2007,17:51)]To dispel confusion, I looked up what fascism is. #A very interesting list was made, I post it and there are analogies that seem to be, well, creepy. #Here it is.
Quote[/b] ]In a 1995 essay "Eternal Fascism", the Italian writer and academic Umberto Eco attempts to list general properties of fascist ideology.
The features of fascism he lists are as follows:
# #* "The Cult of Tradition", combining cultural syncretism with a rejection of modernism (often disguised as a rejection of capitalism).
How about Creationists?
Quote[/b] ] # #* "The Cult of Action for Action's Sake", which dicatates that action is of value in itself, and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.
Again, Creationists, as well as attacks on Media, Arts (movies and music).
Quote[/b] ] # #* "Disagreement is Treason" - fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action.
Remember if you disagree with Bush you were either an America Hater, Seditious or Treasonous?? #I do.
Quote[/b] ] # #* "Fear of Difference", which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.
This looks very, very familiar. #The Mexican Wall, citizen troops patrolling the border... Is there a problem? #Yes. #Is it being made worse. #You decide.
Quote[/b] ] # #* "Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class", fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.
How many times have I heard about "The Great Unwashed" by Conservatives here?
Quote[/b] ] # #* "Obsession With a plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often involves an appeal to xenophobia or the identification of an internal security threat. He cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.
Yep. #Michael Moore, Soros, MoveOn, the list is endless.
Quote[/b] ] # #* "Pacifism is Trafficking With the Enemy" because "Life is Permanent Warfare" - there must always be an enemy to fight.
The demonic attack of Speaker Pelosi's Middle East trip comes to mind. #The lack of rabid animalistic criticism for those who were Republican also comes to mind.
Quote[/b] ] # #* "Contempt for the Weak" - although a fascist society is elitist, everybody in the society is educated to become a hero.
Ah, yes, the disdain for the poor. #The contempt for those who aren't rich. #I suppose those are our weak.
Quote[/b] ] # #* "Selective Populism" - the People have a common will, which is not delegated but interpreted by a leader. This may involve doubt being cast upon a democratic institution, because "it no longer represents the Voice of the People".
Disdain for the Constitution, describing it as another piece of paper.
Quote[/b] ] # #* "Newspeak" - fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.
Well, maybe that accounts for spelling mistakes? #Unfamiliarity with words. #Unable to completely spell words, like LIB, COMMIE, FACIST...
I might be wrong but this sounds all too familiar. #And way too close to home. #I wonder what the Ubervolk will have to say?
Good Job John OM, Bravo.
K7JEM
05-22-2007, 11:03 PM
Quote[/b] (n9xr @ May 22 2007,10:18)]Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ May 21 2007,10:04)]To truly understand fascism, a person would have to study Italy and Germany prior to, and during, WWII.
We do not have centralized authority through a dictator, we don't have stringent socio-economic controls, we don't have suppression of the opposition through terror or censorship, and we don't have belligerent racism and nationalism.
Hitler was a "German Chancellor", not a "dictator".
Neither men filled out an application and interviewed for the job of "dictator". They took the democracy's that they were serving and changed the rules to serve them.
It was a process.
No one fills out an ap to be dictator. They start with a legitimate position, or take power in a coup, or both. Hitler did this, as has been explained. He did not start out as a dictator, but there is no doubt that he was one for at least the last 10 years of his life. They probably don't consider themselves as dictators, but they fit the definition.
We do not have a dictator here, or anything close. We have some that could be on that road, but our way of life pretty much prevents it from happening.
Certain people and aspects of our government could be looked on as leaning toward fascism, just as certain segments lean socialist or communist.
Joe
Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ May 22 2007,10:03)]No one fills out an ap to be dictator. They start with a legitimate position, or take power in a coup, or both. Hitler did this, as has been explained. He did not start out as a dictator, but there is no doubt that he was one for at least the last 10 years of his life. They probably don't consider themselves as dictators, but they fit the definition.
We do not have a dictator here, or anything close. We have some that could be on that road, but our way of life pretty much prevents it from happening.
Certain people and aspects of our government could be looked on as leaning toward fascism, just as certain segments lean socialist or communist.
Joe
http://www.bartcop.com/not-fascist.jpg
May 22nd, to July 14th and this has already been forgotten. Here it is again in all it's glory, but especially for those who forgot.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
N5NPO
07-14-2007, 10:56 PM
Facism: A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
http://www.answers.com/fascism?cat=biz-fin
kd5kfl
07-14-2007, 11:03 PM
Quote[/b] ]Wow he looks quite a bit younger in that photo.
This is characteristic of the Presidency. They all age dramatically in office. Look at images of LBJ and Jimmy Carter before and after.
n2ize
07-14-2007, 11:06 PM
Quote[/b] (KC2KFC @ May 22 2007,10:48)]Quote[/b] (KI4PJW @ May 22 2007,10:31)]Here is the "Dictator" part.
Bush takes control of continuity planning
http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007....lanning (http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007/05/13/bush-takes-control-of-continuity-planning/)
This is the finalizing of the move to have total power in the Executive. #When the next "decapitating" event takes place FEMA, DHS, military all, come under the direct control of the Executive.
WILLNOTBOW!!!
If it's on homelandstupidity.com it must be true.
Well, if you feel it is a matter of concern then the smart thing to do would be to research it in order to dispell it asd false of verify it's truth.
K9STH
07-14-2007, 11:16 PM
XR:
Your statement that the photo was taken of George W. Bush in a second grade class is correct. However, the connotation that you are trying to imply is not correct!
Bush was visiting a second grade classroom when the 11 September 2001 happenings took place.
It is just like the statement that was supposedly made in the old Pravda newspaper ("the" newspaper of the old USSR). Therein they described an automobile race in which the Soviet vehicle placed 2nd and the automobile from the United States placed "next to last". Unfortunately, there were only 2 vehicles in the race and the automobile from the United States won handily. But, since there were just 2 vehicles in the race the USSR vehicle did place second and the vehicle from the United States did place next to last!
Glen, K9STH
Quote[/b] (K9STH @ July 14 2007,10:16)]XR:
Your statement that the photo was taken of George W. Bush in a second grade class is correct. #However, the connotation that you are trying to imply is not correct!
Bush was visiting a second grade classroom when the 11 September 2001 happenings took place.
It is just like the statement that was supposedly made in the old Pravda newspaper ("the" newspaper of the old USSR). #Therein they described an automobile race in which the Soviet vehicle placed 2nd and the automobile from the United States placed "next to last". #Unfortunately, there were only 2 vehicles in the race and the automobile from the United States won handily. #But, since there were just 2 vehicles in the race the USSR vehicle did place second and the vehicle from the United States did place next to last!
Glen, K9STH
He is very good at this type or rhetoric and his well seems bottomless.
Wonder what he will do for a hobby after Bush is out of office? Life will be boring.
Quote[/b] (n2nh @ May 20 2007,17:51)]To dispel confusion, I looked up what fascism is. A very interesting list was made, I post it and there are analogies that seem to be, well, creepy. Here it is.
Thanks. We were all very confused. Now I'll attempt to add to it. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Quote[/b] ]In a 1995 essay "Eternal Fascism", the Italian writer and academic Umberto Eco attempts to list general properties of fascist ideology.
The features of fascism he lists are as follows:
Quote[/b] ]
* "The Cult of Tradition", combining cultural syncretism with a rejection of modernism (often disguised as a rejection of capitalism).
How about Creationists?
How about Marxists? Or other olde-tyme collectivists? How about Hillary? Or anyone who craves a return to the old, "great society?" Giuliani, perhaps?
Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ] * "The Cult of Action for Action's Sake", which dicatates that action is of value in itself, and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.
Again, Creationists, as well as attacks on Media, Arts (movies and music).
As well as environmental extremists, "affirmative action by any means necessary" extremists, reflexive anti-religious, anti-war, anti-gun, anti-corporate, anti-WTO, anti-nuclear-power, anti-modernization street protests, etc.
Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ] * "Disagreement is Treason" - fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action.
Remember if you disagree with Bush you were either an America Hater, Seditious or Treasonous?? I do.
Right, and if you agree with him, you're stupid, and whatever discourse you engage in is dismissed as stupid. You are a traitor to intellectualism. And whole threads on bulletin boards will be devoted to how stupid you are. Name-calling will be prevalent. Not a whole lot of intellectualism, though. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Thankfully, nobody's going to jail for being stupid or an "America Hater." You might have trouble in certain social circles, though.
Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ] * "Fear of Difference", which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.
This looks very, very familiar. The Mexican Wall, citizen troops patrolling the border... Is there a problem? Yes. Is it being made worse. You decide.
As well as anti-Christian, anti-Jew, anti-Israel, anti-religious propaganda. Also anti-immigrant sentiment from the environmentalists like the Sierra Club and the population density worriers/luddites. Anti-male sentiment appealed to by some extreme feminists. Anti-white sentiments from racist groups like La Raza.
Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ] * "Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class", fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.
How many times have I heard about "The Great Unwashed" by Conservatives here?
Everybody tries to appeal to the frustrated middle class (thankfully one exists!). Some say the rich are dishonestly and unfairly taking away from them, even when it's not necessarilly the case. Those greedy, greedy capitalists care nothing about you, I, or the environment.
Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ] * "Obsession With a plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often involves an appeal to xenophobia or the identification of an internal security threat. He cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.
Yep. Michael Moore, Soros, MoveOn, the list is endless.
9/11 truthers, Halliburton, the "evil drug companies," the "evil insurance industry," Fox News, Ann Coulter, "the vast right wing conspiracy," those obsessed with white privledge, sexuality, race, the list is endless...
Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ] * "Pacifism is Trafficking With the Enemy" because "Life is Permanent Warfare" - there must always be an enemy to fight.
The demonic attack of Speaker Pelosi's Middle East trip comes to mind. The lack of rabid animalistic criticism for those who were Republican also comes to mind.
Working for "the man," driving an SUV, etc. Reflexively calling anyone "stupid" who expresses a different opinion or interpretation. Until there is world socialism (or single payer health care, if you prefer), there will always be an enemy to fight.
Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ] * "Contempt for the Weak" - although a fascist society is elitist, everybody in the society is educated to become a hero.
Ah, yes, the disdain for the poor. The contempt for those who aren't rich. I suppose those are our weak.
Also bad is contempt for _anyone_ that results in taking their posessions at gunpoint. Even if they have money.
Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ] * "Selective Populism" - the People have a common will, which is not delegated but interpreted by a leader. This may involve doubt being cast upon a democratic institution, because "it no longer represents the Voice of the People".
Disdain for the Constitution, describing it as another piece of paper.
Socialism "for the good of the whole." The constitution is a "living document."
Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ] * "Newspeak" - fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.
Well, maybe that accounts for spelling mistakes? Unfamiliarity with words. Unable to completely spell words, like LIB, COMMIE, FACIST...
How about speech codes at universities? Use as many big words as you want, as long as you aren't advocating something the establishment disagrees with. Comrade.
Quote[/b] ]
I might be wrong but this sounds all too familiar. And way too close to home. I wonder what the Ubervolk will have to say?
Someone could put together a list of traits that fit a communist dictatorship (or the development of one) and I'm sure someone else could write a cute parallel to aspects of our American society, too. No big trick.
ab1ga
07-15-2007, 01:44 AM
Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ May 21 2007,18:04)]Do we have elements of fascism in our society?
Sure.
Are we a fascist nation?
No.
To truly understand fascism, a person would have to study Italy and Germany prior to, and during, WWII.
We do not have centralized authority through a dictator, we don't have stringent socio-economic controls, we don't have suppression of the opposition through terror or censorship, and we don't have belligerent racism and nationalism.
We do, however, have some aspects of all of these things. Italy and Germany had most (or all) of these "qualities", and that is what set them apart as fascist nations.
Cuba has most of these things, yet they claim to be communist. China also.
Most countries run or controlled by a dictator will have many of these fascist traits.
Joe
I worry that although we are not a fascist state, we may easily degenerate into one by surrendering those things which define America and for which our forefathers risked their necks.
I find that in spite of the protestations this may invoke from both camps, fascist and communist regimes are quite similar. They seem to share two common beliefs: the first is that the benefit of the whole, however ambiguous and tentative it may be, must prevail over the rights of the individual. On the left this thinking results in a state that seeks to compel virtuous behavior such as eating right, giving up smoking, and wearing a helmet while riding a motorcycle. On the right this thinking leads to legislation restricting overwhelmingly harmless behavior, i.e. bringing water on an airplane, because a terrorist MIGHT find a way to exploit this in some way, or laws which allow a level of government intrusion into private lives which would have had the Founders foaming at the mouth.
The second shared belief is the existence of "us vs. them." The communists had the evils of rampant world capitalism, and now we have the great unknown world power called Al-Qaeda and Friends. The existence of a great enemy is used as the reason to get people to surrender hard-won freedoms and make heavy sacrifices in lives or wealth.
I had the privilege of spending some of my teen years growing up in Germany, and the study of the Hitler years was on the syllabus for the time that I was there. We took special care to study the "Machtergreifung", the series of events which turned Germany from a beaten, suffering, and aggrieved nation to a mockery of its own civilized past and a scourge of humanity. The use of the term has a lot of hidden meaning in German, and when I heard Elie Wiesel use the word to describe some of the behavior of this administration my blood ran cold.
We may not be a Fascist state, but Mr. Wiesel was there when it happend, and that's enough to make me cautious.
One might for an answer read the definition Mussolini wrote. (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html)
Cortland
KA5S
KC2RPP
07-15-2007, 02:31 PM
iFascism, istupid, idc, ihate, inot important, iretarted
The big "ism" words are so full of misuse and misunderstanding that it has become convenient for the users to simply throw "ism" labels on things as desired.
As far as communism, socialism, and fascism, they are all negative terms in my mind as they all exalt the collective and denigrate the individual.
Quote[/b] (ka5s @ July 15 2007,06:28)]One might for an answer read the definition Mussolini wrote. (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html)
Cortland
KA5S
Thanks OM, that was a great read.
Quote[/b] ]...The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone....
Sounds like the moral foundation of some modern conservative thinking to me. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
N4AUD
07-15-2007, 04:55 PM
Quote[/b] (al2i @ July 15 2007,12:44)]The big "ism" words are so full of misuse and misunderstanding that it has become convenient for the users to simply throw "ism" labels on things as desired.
As far as communism, socialism, and fascism, they are all negative terms in my mind as they all exalt the collective and denigrate the individual.
I agree with your post completely, it cut through the QRZ fog just fine and got to the point.
I don't see a lot of difference between Nazi Germany and Stalinist USSR, for instance. The only differences were just propaganda content used by two egomaniacs to keep themselves in power.
We are not a fascist state, but of course ANY nation can become anything its citizens ALLOW it to become, or not.
Quote[/b] (AK7V @ July 14 2007,20:24)]Quote[/b] (n2nh @ May 20 2007,17:51)]To dispel confusion, I looked up what fascism is. A very interesting list was made, I post it and there are analogies that seem to be, well, creepy. Here it is.
Thanks. We were all very confused. Now I'll attempt to add to it. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Quote[/b] ]In a 1995 essay "Eternal Fascism", the Italian writer and academic Umberto Eco attempts to list general properties of fascist ideology.
The features of fascism he lists are as follows:
Quote[/b] ]
* "The Cult of Tradition", combining cultural syncretism with a rejection of modernism (often disguised as a rejection of capitalism).
How about Creationists?
How about Marxists? Or other olde-tyme collectivists? How about Hillary? Or anyone who craves a return to the old, "great society?" Giuliani, perhaps?
Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ] * "The Cult of Action for Action's Sake", which dicatates that action is of value in itself, and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.
Again, Creationists, as well as attacks on Media, Arts (movies and music).
As well as environmental extremists, "affirmative action by any means necessary" extremists, reflexive anti-religious, anti-war, anti-gun, anti-corporate, anti-WTO, anti-nuclear-power, anti-modernization street protests, etc.
Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ] * "Disagreement is Treason" - fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action.
Remember if you disagree with Bush you were either an America Hater, Seditious or Treasonous?? I do.
Right, and if you agree with him, you're stupid, and whatever discourse you engage in is dismissed as stupid. You are a traitor to intellectualism. And whole threads on bulletin boards will be devoted to how stupid you are. Name-calling will be prevalent. Not a whole lot of intellectualism, though. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Thankfully, nobody's going to jail for being stupid or an "America Hater." You might have trouble in certain social circles, though.
Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ] * "Fear of Difference", which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.
This looks very, very familiar. The Mexican Wall, citizen troops patrolling the border... Is there a problem? Yes. Is it being made worse. You decide.
As well as anti-Christian, anti-Jew, anti-Israel, anti-religious propaganda. Also anti-immigrant sentiment from the environmentalists like the Sierra Club and the population density worriers/luddites. Anti-male sentiment appealed to by some extreme feminists. Anti-white sentiments from racist groups like La Raza.
Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ] * "Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class", fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.
How many times have I heard about "The Great Unwashed" by Conservatives here?
Everybody tries to appeal to the frustrated middle class (thankfully one exists!). Some say the rich are dishonestly and unfairly taking away from them, even when it's not necessarilly the case. Those greedy, greedy capitalists care nothing about you, I, or the environment.
Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ] * "Obsession With a plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often involves an appeal to xenophobia or the identification of an internal security threat. He cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.
Yep. Michael Moore, Soros, MoveOn, the list is endless.
9/11 truthers, Halliburton, the "evil drug companies," the "evil insurance industry," Fox News, Ann Coulter, "the vast right wing conspiracy," those obsessed with white privledge, sexuality, race, the list is endless...
Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ] * "Pacifism is Trafficking With the Enemy" because "Life is Permanent Warfare" - there must always be an enemy to fight.
The demonic attack of Speaker Pelosi's Middle East trip comes to mind. The lack of rabid animalistic criticism for those who were Republican also comes to mind.
Working for "the man," driving an SUV, etc. Reflexively calling anyone "stupid" who expresses a different opinion or interpretation. Until there is world socialism (or single payer health care, if you prefer), there will always be an enemy to fight.
Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ] * "Contempt for the Weak" - although a fascist society is elitist, everybody in the society is educated to become a hero.
Ah, yes, the disdain for the poor. The contempt for those who aren't rich. I suppose those are our weak.
Also bad is contempt for _anyone_ that results in taking their posessions at gunpoint. Even if they have money.
Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ] * "Selective Populism" - the People have a common will, which is not delegated but interpreted by a leader. This may involve doubt being cast upon a democratic institution, because "it no longer represents the Voice of the People".
Disdain for the Constitution, describing it as another piece of paper.
Socialism "for the good of the whole." The constitution is a "living document."
Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ] * "Newspeak" - fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.
Well, maybe that accounts for spelling mistakes? Unfamiliarity with words. Unable to completely spell words, like LIB, COMMIE, FACIST...
How about speech codes at universities? Use as many big words as you want, as long as you aren't advocating something the establishment disagrees with. Comrade.
Quote[/b] ]
I might be wrong but this sounds all too familiar. And way too close to home. I wonder what the Ubervolk will have to say?
Someone could put together a list of traits that fit a communist dictatorship (or the development of one) and I'm sure someone else could write a cute parallel to aspects of our American society, too. No big trick.
Dude. Just mentioning people you don't like and saying Marxists etc. means nothing what so ever.
Make you point. Tell us about the Marxist you met and how what he told you about his movement showed you that he was a fascist. Or how a news story (keep the mama's boys blogs out) showed you how Marxism is fascist. Or quote an encyclopedic reference to bolster your point.
Methinks that you have a lot of that to do since your scatalogical references are of such a range and scope that it might take a whole thread to explain this Freudian nightmare of references that you have listed.
OTOH, it also comes to mind that if you actually had proof, you'd have already written it rather than a laundry list of people you disagree with. And your name-calling "comrade" is more than ample proof of you impotent lack of ability to perform the slightest meaningful task of refutation.
ROTFLMAO! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Quote[/b] (n4aud @ July 14 2007,10:55)]We are not a fascist state
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d148/ku4my/orlynr8.gif
Quote[/b] (n2nh @ July 15 2007,17:21)]
Dude. Just mentioning people you don't like and saying Marxists etc. means nothing what so ever.
Make you point. Tell us about the Marxist you met and how what he told you about his movement showed you that he was a fascist. Or how a news story (keep the mama's boys blogs out) showed you how Marxism is fascist. Or quote an encyclopedic reference to bolster your point.
I never said Marxism was fascist. Each comment I wrote was in response to Eco's fascist trait listed right above it; not to Fascism as a whole. I had hoped my formatting made that clear. If there's something I wrote that you find particularly intriguing or otherwise worth discussing, bring it up! But don't make things up.
Anyway, why can't I write a post like the original in the thread, full of rhetorical questions, commenting on a list of fascist traits by drawing some parallels to current thinking that I perceive? Why do I need encyclopedic references? Did you? Or are you the only one allowed? Does this seem fair?? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
You can disagree with some or all of my thoughts - no problem. I don't care. I wasn't refuting your post (or the Eco's insights) -- just adding some to it (and I happen to see a lot of the parallels you drew, as well). I don't need to prove anything. Nor do you.
Quote[/b] ]
Methinks that you have a lot of that to do since your scatalogical references are of such a range and scope that it might take a whole thread to explain this Freudian nightmare of references that you have listed.
Scatalogical? OoooK. I'm not interested in re-writing my post in a different way just to make you happy. Either you get it or you don't.
Quote[/b] ]
OTOH, it also comes to mind that if you actually had proof, you'd have already written it rather than a laundry list of people you disagree with. And your name-calling "comrade" is more than ample proof of you impotent lack of ability to perform the slightest meaningful task of refutation.
ROTFLMAO! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Glad you're amused, at least. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif My point had very little to do with refutation. It's more about accretion.
Quote[/b] (AK7V @ July 15 2007,21:18)]Quote[/b] (n2nh @ July 15 2007,17:21)]
Dude. Just mentioning people you don't like and saying Marxists etc. means nothing what so ever.
Make you point. Tell us about the Marxist you met and how what he told you about his movement showed you that he was a fascist. Or how a news story (keep the mama's boys blogs out) showed you how Marxism is fascist. Or quote an encyclopedic reference to bolster your point.
I never said Marxism was fascist. Each comment I wrote was in response to Eco's fascist trait listed right above it; not to Fascism as a whole. I had hoped my formatting made that clear. If there's something I wrote that you find particularly intriguing or otherwise worth discussing, bring it up! But don't make things up.
Anyway, why can't I write a post like the original in the thread, full of rhetorical questions, commenting on a list of fascist traits by drawing some parallels to current thinking that I perceive? Why do I need encyclopedic references? Did you? Or are you the only one allowed? Does this seem fair?? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
You can disagree with some or all of my thoughts - no problem. I don't care. I wasn't refuting your post (or the Eco's insights) -- just adding some to it (and I happen to see a lot of the parallels you drew, as well). I don't need to prove anything. Nor do you.
Quote[/b] ]
Methinks that you have a lot of that to do since your scatalogical references are of such a range and scope that it might take a whole thread to explain this Freudian nightmare of references that you have listed.
Scatalogical? OoooK. I'm not interested in re-writing my post in a different way just to make you happy. Either you get it or you don't.
Quote[/b] ]
OTOH, it also comes to mind that if you actually had proof, you'd have already written it rather than a laundry list of people you disagree with. And your name-calling "comrade" is more than ample proof of you impotent lack of ability to perform the slightest meaningful task of refutation.
ROTFLMAO! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Glad you're amused, at least. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif My point had very little to do with refutation. It's more about accretion.
First of all, please quote where I have said you couldn't comment on it. You sound like what a bunch graffiti artists said when I caught them defacing property. OTOH, I asked for an explanation of how any of that made sense in the context of the original post, why you posted them under those sections and you couldn't explain. Then got all in your face defensive. Typical. No wonder the chimp won in '04, he has a lot in common with the trunk monkeys out there.
As far as quoting a source, obviously you are a fresh faced newbie or you would've known that all of that was taken from Posts here at QRZ. Which is why you and you alone were ignorantly ranting about sources. They are here, look them up.
Seems that you're accretions are secretions of a fetid nature. Maybe you should just use them for manure.
LOL! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Quote[/b] (n2nh @ July 16 2007,10:38)]Quote[/b] (AK7V @ July 15 2007,21:18)]Quote[/b] (n2nh @ July 15 2007,17:21)]
Dude. Just mentioning people you don't like and saying Marxists etc. means nothing what so ever.
Make you point. Tell us about the Marxist you met and how what he told you about his movement showed you that he was a fascist. Or how a news story (keep the mama's boys blogs out) showed you how Marxism is fascist. Or quote an encyclopedic reference to bolster your point.
I never said Marxism was fascist. Each comment I wrote was in response to Eco's fascist trait listed right above it; not to Fascism as a whole. I had hoped my formatting made that clear. If there's something I wrote that you find particularly intriguing or otherwise worth discussing, bring it up! But don't make things up.
Anyway, why can't I write a post like the original in the thread, full of rhetorical questions, commenting on a list of fascist traits by drawing some parallels to current thinking that I perceive? Why do I need encyclopedic references? Did you? Or are you the only one allowed? Does this seem fair?? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
You can disagree with some or all of my thoughts - no problem. I don't care. I wasn't refuting your post (or the Eco's insights) -- just adding some to it (and I happen to see a lot of the parallels you drew, as well). I don't need to prove anything. Nor do you.
Quote[/b] ]
Methinks that you have a lot of that to do since your scatalogical references are of such a range and scope that it might take a whole thread to explain this Freudian nightmare of references that you have listed.
Scatalogical? OoooK. I'm not interested in re-writing my post in a different way just to make you happy. Either you get it or you don't.
Quote[/b] ]
OTOH, it also comes to mind that if you actually had proof, you'd have already written it rather than a laundry list of people you disagree with. And your name-calling "comrade" is more than ample proof of you impotent lack of ability to perform the slightest meaningful task of refutation.
ROTFLMAO! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Glad you're amused, at least. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif My point had very little to do with refutation. It's more about accretion.
First of all, please quote where I have said you couldn't comment on it. You sound like what a bunch graffiti artists said when I caught them defacing property. OTOH, I asked for an explanation of how any of that made sense in the context of the original post, why you posted them under those sections and you couldn't explain. Then got all in your face defensive. Typical. No wonder the chimp won in '04, he has a lot in common with the trunk monkeys out there.
As far as quoting a source, obviously you are a fresh faced newbie or you would've known that all of that was taken from Posts here at QRZ. Which is why you and you alone were ignorantly ranting about sources. They are here, look them up.
Seems that you're accretions are secretions of a fetid nature. Maybe you should just use them for manure.
LOL! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif