I wanted to do a little SSTV today...

[N4AUD]

Hooked the rig up to the computer, went to 14230 and the propagation seemed good. Received a couple of pics, sent out one CQ pic, then people started SSB phone conversations and calling CQ on and near that frequency, some right on top of an image I was receiving.

There's no law against doing it, but I suppose some licensees may not know that those warbling noises they are hearing are contacts in progress, another mode of communications.

It's annoying. There's an op with a wide signal on 14228.5 that is interfering like nobody's business.

Oh, well. No sstv for me today.

Hey, while I was typing this, I received an image from AG3Y, looks like in response to KA0PSE, who I had also received, just not as well. I guess I'll monitor a while longer. AG3Y is coming right through the interference.

[KI4ITV]

I've been noticing this more lately. #I used to always marvel at how both 14.230 and 14.300 were usually left reasonably clear during SSB contest and such. #Not so anymore.
I've noticed contesters calling on the MMSN net frequency for the first time recently #
I stuggled with ethics last weekend over an OP calling, in a QSOP, on #14.230. I was going to tell him he was in the SSTV area, right on top of the calling frequency and should probably QSY. #I flinched and decided not to call and tell him, spun the VFO. I didn't want my callsign associated with the mess, somebody would only get half the story or the offending OP might get offensive about my concern. # I Should have, but didn't.

[N4AUD]

I finally quit today. It was a real mess. It's not against the RULES to do what was going on, but it is poor operating, IMHO. Oh well.

[AG3Y]

Audie, I'm glad that you started this thread. It brings up one of my pet peeves!

We SSTVers realize that the "SSTV Calling Frequency" is only observed by "gentlemen's agreement", but there seem to be precious few "gentlemen" in supply, these days! ! ! When a contest of any sort comes along, a lot of these contesters hear a relatively clear spot, except for some strange "warbling noises", and many of them start a pileup going right on top of the SSTV transmissions! Not cool! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Of course, we SSTVers are not totally innocent, ourselves. I often hear multitudes of SSTV stations, either sending "CQ" frames one on top of another, or sometimes an OT or two will camp on the frequency all afternoon and prevent anyone else from sending a "CQ" frame, make a contact, and then QSY to a slightly different frequency to carry on a picture sharing QSO simply by their overpowering presence.

I have been told by an OT that he just "hates" the SSTV Webcams that are monitoring 14.230, and doesn't care if they are there, or not. He is going to transmit as long as he wants on .230, and that is the way it is going to be! ! !

That is not a good attitude, either.

It is time for the OTs to realize that .230 is NOT an exclusive SSTV frequency like it might have been in days past; that there ARE several stations set up to receive and then post SSTV transmissions to the web and they are NOT frequency agile; and that contesters should be more "gentlemenly" and use different frequencies for carrying on their activities. I cringe to think what it is going to be like when 20 starts being open world-wide again! Pandamonium ! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Oh, and BTW, Audie thanks for the signal report! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

73, Jim

[n5tjd]

Yeah, AG3Y has a pretty good signal on SSTV today. Thanks for the contact btw, Jim.

I have been off and on frequency today and AUD, I just looked through my history, you were making it into northeast Texas 595.

I noticed about the time I got on people just fired up on .228 calling a station that I guess was working split, they then moved up and onto .230. I never could hear who they were calling. I assume BS7 if they are still on air, but I didn't hear a peep on 14.185, so I don't know.

[N4AUD]

Jim,

Here's that image of yours I received. You can see the interference plainly.

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/k1alk/200705051724.jpg

[kc7gnm]

Quote[/b] (n4aud @ May 05 2007,17:13)]Jim,

Here's that image of yours I received. You can see the interference plainly.

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/k1alk/200705051724.jpg
Sounds the like the same thing winlinkers are doing to packet on 14.105.

[nz3m]

Wouldn't that be PSE giving Jim a report?

Dave

[N4AUD]

Quote[/b] (AB3BK @ May 05 2007,17:29)]Wouldn't that be PSE giving Jim a report?

Dave
Big DUH for me! You're right.

[AG3Y]

Funny thing was I never saw KA0PSE on my screen. I looked on the webcams about 10 minutes later and saw that he had called me! And I gave him a "575" picture ! Just shows you how squirrelly the band is at times !

Just before making this post, I replied to someone calling "KG3Y" I thought they were reading the screen wrong, until I looked up his callsign on the Zed! My Bad ! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Funny things happen on SSTV .

73, Jim

[n5tjd]

Hey, AUD check out this pic... Geez, I wonder who sent it? I haven't a clue! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb235/n5tjd/200705051749.jpg

[KD6NIG]

I've notice that contesters will call people LIDS on voice, or send LID and other things on CW when people are on the DX frequency, etcetera.

So my question is, do SSTV operators send a picture of a LID in the same fashion when someone annoys them?

[KA4DPO]

It's unfortunate but there definitely seems to be a shortage of gentlemen on the bands these days. I'm not into SSTV but I certainly respect the users of this mode and try to keep my distance ( at least 4 KHz ) so as not to disturb their operation. It's too bad that a lot of hams either don't know what they are hearing or simply don't care.

The same thing happens in the AM window on 75. I haven't worked AM in quite a few years but I like to listen and often hear SSB stations fire up right on top of an ongoing AM QSO then bad mouth them. I hate to stir the pot but this used to be a rare occurrence, it's now becoming commonplace.

[AG3Y]

Quote[/b] (KD6NIG @ May 05 2007,19:34)]I've notice that contesters will call people LIDS on voice, or send LID and other things on CW when people are on the DX frequency, etcetera.

So my question is, do SSTV operators send a picture of a LID in the same fashion when someone annoys them?
I wish I had a good picture of a garbage can with a LID on it ! Only problem is, the true Lids would not be able to see the picture. All they hear is the "tweedle" and have no idea what it is. ( apparently ! )

I have, however, seen pictures of text being sent with very strong language, that would not be considered "polite" in mixed company! Probably a good thing that most people don't have the software to show it !

BTW AUD, you need to tweak your clock settings. PM me if you would like !


73, Jim

[N4AUD]

Quote[/b] (n5tjd @ May 05 2007,19:34)]Hey, AUD check out this pic... Geez, I wonder who sent it? I haven't a clue! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb235/n5tjd/200705051749.jpg
Thanks! That's the "flower clock" in Frankfurt, KY BTW. I guess I was getting out.

[KD6NIG]

Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ May 05 2007,17:30)]Quote[/b] (KD6NIG @ May 05 2007,19:34)]I've notice that contesters will call people LIDS on voice, or send LID and other things on CW when people are on the DX frequency, etcetera.

So my question is, do SSTV operators send a picture of a LID in the same fashion when someone annoys them?
I wish I had a good picture of a garbage can with a LID on it ! Only problem is, the true Lids would not be able to see the picture. All they hear is the "tweedle" and have no idea what it is. ( apparently ! )

I have, however, seen pictures of text being sent with very strong language, that would not be considered "polite" in mixed company! Probably a good thing that most people don't have the software to show it !

BTW AUD, you need to tweak your clock settings. PM me if you would like !


73, Jim
I figured as much. Though in this day and age, someone sending LID, UP, etc in CW probably wouldn't be understood either.

I thought though it would make a good laugh for the others on frequency though. "Some (pic of lid) just crashed my QSO!"

[ae4fa]

After reading this thread over a few days, I decided to find out for myself. Hadn't been on SSTV in a couple of years.

All I can say is Good Lord, where do these people come from. I didn't copy a clear picture all afternoon. Interference was on everything.

[kc7gnm]

Quote[/b] (ae4fa @ May 06 2007,18:02)]After reading this thread over a few days, I decided to find out for myself. Hadn't been on SSTV in a couple of years.

All I can say is Good Lord, where do these people come from. I didn't copy a clear picture all afternoon. Interference was on everything.
You should try doing packet on HF. Same thing. Winlinkers causing so much QRM that you cannot breathe any.

[AG3Y]

Quote[/b] (ae4fa @ May 06 2007,18:02)]After reading this thread over a few days, I decided to find out for myself. #Hadn't been on SSTV in a couple of years.

All I can say is Good Lord, where do these people come from. #I didn't copy a clear picture all afternoon. #Interference was on everything.
The soundcard digital programs have been both a blessing and a curse. The blessing is that it is very easy to send and receive pictures, text, and messages with very little equipment needing to be set up and "tweaked". But that is also the curse! With it being so easy to do, everybody who has a computer sitting in the hamshack is trying out one mode after another.

I would be willing to bet that the same people who have multiple tracks running down the waterfall on their PSK signals, hum on their RTTY signals, severe slant on their SSTV pictures, etc. etc. will get tired of the mode they are currently messing around with, and try something else in a week or so.

"CQ Contest. . . CQ Contest" next ? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Who knows.

We could just wish that they would either learn better and correct their "liddish" operating faults, or sell their entire stations, and take up some other avocation like golf or fishing ! The pessimist in me says that neither is likely to happen, soon!

73, Jim

[N5LRZ]

Well first lets establish the fact that common SSTV is not as detailed and clear of quality compared to the more high def version of the transmission.

SSTV as transmitted by MMTV and MixW is OK. BUT TRY the more high def 'Ham Pal'. The difference is that the MMTV and MixW are the standard quality image that is to say OK but nothing to write home about. While the Ham Pal is strictly high def digital picture that when done properly allows you to see the whiskers on a gnat.

I have to warn ya thought, SSTV standard can be viewed even if the band and transmission quality is less than perfect. The Higher Definition images on the other hand are more easily disrupted--but when the image comes thru they are spectacular in details.

N5LRZ

[AG3Y]

LRZ, MMSSTV transmits and receives standard, conventional analog SSTV images, where the frequency of the tone determines what color and intensity are put on the screen at that moment in time. ( very simplistic explaination, but sufficient for this discussion ). HamPal and WinDRM use a specially adapted version of DREAM software, which consists of very wide band of simultaneously transmitted tones that are then converted into a picture by a fairly complex D/A conversion process.

If you listen to the two transmissions, you will readily agree that they are totally dis-similar in nature.

As you have pointed out, the analog SSTV is basically a "what you get, is what you see" type of protocol, while DRM has an error-checking and "ARQ" type of sequence where you can receive a second or even greater number of transmissions where the missing data is "filled in", and the end result will be a picture as perfect as the one that was on the originating station's computer!

Analog SSTV generally hangs out on 14.230 ( 20 meter frequency ) where the digital transmissions are usually on 14.233 or 236. The pictures are virtually perfect, but there is a lot of voice exchange in order to get the "fills", usually, and I would like to see the process automated to a better degree. Maybe the reason it hasn't been accomplished to that better degree is because there is usually a fair number of people trying to copy the same image, and each station is getting different segments of the same transmissions. Something that needs to be worked on better!

BTW, I just got a new 3ghz XP machine in the shack, and I am anxious to jump on the digital picture ride myself !

73, Jim

[kg6top]

Quote[/b] (KD6NIG @ May 05 2007,16:34)]I've notice that contesters will call people LIDS on voice, or send LID and other things on CW when people are on the DX frequency, etcetera.

So my question is, do SSTV operators send a picture of a LID in the same fashion when someone annoys them?
Take a picture of a manhole cover. Big and heavy LID http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[wg7x]

Quote AG3Y:Quote[/b] ]Analog SSTV generally hangs out on 14.230 ( 20 meter frequency ) where the digital transmissions are usually on 14.233 or 236.

And there, in a nutshell, is the essence of the problem:

SSTV has become popular, therefore needing more space, and experiencing more QRM, while the space between 14.100 and 14.150 is essentially vacant.

Does this make sense? It is time for the SSTV signals to move down to about 14.125 with no voice co-ordination. Then they could send all the pix they want with no interference from SSB.

As it stands now, they SSTV community expects a clear frequency from .230-236 with guard bands above and below, meaning that they are staking out .227-240. 13 kHz of space in an already crowded General class band is a bit much.

Don't believe me? Try starting a phone QSO at 14.225-.227 and see how long it takes before SSTV QRM obliterates your conversation. I've actually watched on my scope as an SSTV signal moved from .230 to .235 to deliberately QRM an on going QSO. It was not my conversation, I was simply listening to a chat between two hams, one in New England and the other in Florida. Then the SSTV signal moves down and squats right on their frequency.

Because of this, and other things that I've personally observed, I guess that you can tell that I'm not a big fan of the SSTV crowd.

Sorry Jim, that's the way it is. The one thing that some of the guys (and it's usually guys), must realize is that because of the proliferation of sound card software they are no longer a closed community.

Many folks just monitor the frequency and see the pictures. They form an opinion of your group based on what they see and hear. Some fellow in 7-land sending girlie pix all day is not what I'd like my family to see. My XYL actually wandered into the shack one day as I was monitoring, saw the girlie pix, and immediately jumped to the wrong conclusion. But, to be fair, she also heard the mess surrounding the P5 a couple of years ago, and thought that I was listening to (a)CB. So, no one group is perfect I guess.


Enuff said CUL es 73

Gary

[kc7gnm]

Quote[/b] (wg7x @ May 07 2007,10:20)]Quote AG3Y:Quote[/b] ]Analog SSTV generally hangs out on 14.230 ( 20 meter frequency ) where the digital transmissions are usually on 14.233 or 236.

And there, in a nutshell, is the essence of the problem:

SSTV has become popular, therefore needing more space, and experiencing more QRM, while the space between 14.100 and 14.150 is essentially vacant.

Does this make sense? It is time for the SSTV signals to move down to about 14.125 with no voice co-ordination. Then they could send all the pix they want with no interference from SSB.

As it stands now, they SSTV community expects a clear frequency from .230-236 with guard bands above and below, meaning that they are staking out .227-240. 13 kHz of space in an already crowded General class band is a bit much.

Don't believe me? Try starting a phone QSO at 14.225-.227 and see how long it takes before SSTV QRM obliterates your conversation. I've actually watched on my scope as an SSTV signal moved from .230 to .235 to deliberately QRM an on going QSO. It was not my conversation, I was simply listening to a chat between two hams, one in New England and the other in Florida. Then the SSTV signal moves down and squats right on their frequency.

Because of this, and other things that I've personally observed, I guess that you can tell that I'm not a big fan of the SSTV crowd.

Sorry Jim, that's the way it is. The one thing that some of the guys (and it's usually guys), must realize is that because of the proliferation of sound card software they are no longer a closed community.

Many folks just monitor the frequency and see the pictures. They form an opinion of your group based on what they see and hear. Some fellow #in 7-land sending girlie pix all day is not what I'd like my family to see. My XYL actually wandered into the shack one day as I was monitoring, saw the girlie pix, and immediately jumped to the wrong conclusion. But, to be fair, she also heard the mess surrounding the P5 a couple of years ago, and thought that I was listening to (a)CB. So, no one group is perfect I guess.


Enuff said CUL es 73

Gary
Well I do SSTV also but you have to remember that SSTV is in the SSB part of the band and technically can be used anywhere in the SSB part of the band. Most SSTV'ers hang out in that relativly small section. At least they are not taking up the whole 20 SSB band to do it unlike the winlinkers are doing on the digital portion of the bands. If I want to do SSTV and I hear a SSB conversation going on then I don't do SSTV for a while until that QSO is over. What you just described is a lid that thinks that 14.230 is for SSTV only and they can transmit a picture over you SSB signal. Is that wrong? Yes it is. Also take into account that if you know 14.230 is used for SSTV per a gentlemans agreement, don't fire up a SSB conversation there. You are just asking for trouble.

[AG3Y]

Gary, it's NOT "my group" ! In fact, if you read my comments on this and other strings, you will find that I am at least as annoyed at the "liddy" procedures that are going on, on these frequencies as you are!

I prefer SSTV over other modes of operation, but I certainly am not leading any group. In fact, I only came on board SSTV modes about a year ago, so I am very much a "newbie" to the mode. But I am a quick learner, and have more than a little background in television transmission techniques ( see my bio ) , so I probably understand a bit more than the average guy using the mode.

As far as moving down into the lower frequencies, FCC R&R Part 97.305 only allows Phone and Image transmissions on a frequency between 14.150 to .350, and not lower . So it is NOT a question of "bandplan" or "gentlemen's agreements" it is LAW ! Sorry about that !

I have been advocating that 14.230 be changed from a SSTV mode frequency to a SSTV Calling frequency, and that after two stations find one another, they QSY to a different clear spot. Finding that clear spot is becoming more and more problematic however!

I do most of my work during the week ( one of the blessings of being retired ) but I see a real problem when all the "weekend warriors" get on there. I wish there were some way to educate everyone and get them to start thinking "calling frequency - qsy "

73, Jim

[wg7x]

Quote AG3Y: Quote[/b] ]As far as moving down into the lower frequencies, FCC R&R Part 97.305 only allows Phone and Image transmissions on a frequency between 14.150 to .350, and not lower . So it is NOT a question of "bandplan" or "gentlemen's agreements" it is LAW ! Sorry about that !


Jim I know that it is not currently allowed, but we also know that bandplans can be changed. If I was an SSTV advocate, that's what I would be going after: A small slice of spectrum between 14.1 and 14.150. After if the FCC in all their wisdom, deem it not usable for US hams on phone, then why not agitate for a slice there?

OK, I'll let you off the hook as a advocate for SSTV. I have read your stuff here and I know that some of it irritates you as much as it does the rest of us.

I guess that we will have to see if cool heads can agree to get along!

CU on the bands!

73 Gary

[AG3Y]

Gary, I sure have wondered for quite a while about the FCC's definitions of "Voice and Images" as outlined in the above quoted R&R. In a real recent QST, an article was presented about WinDRM, and there was a sidebar to the article about whether the digital mode was legal when transmitted in the "Voice and Images" section of the band, as opposed to the CW and Digital exclusive portions of the bands. According to the sidebar, the information contained in the transmissions IS either digital VOICE or digital IMAGES ( emphasis, mine ) so the transmissions are entirely legal ! I guess there have been some far more "legal beagle" minds at work on this issue than mine, but I still have questions about the resulting judgements. These questions date back to when MixW could be used to send pictures that were transmitted with a variation on the MFSK protocol. Sure, the transmissions were digital in nature, but the contents were PICTURES ! So, in essence, the same thought process was in place even then. Bottom line is that pictures are not transmitted in the lower portion of the band, and text using digital protocols is not transmitted in the upper portion of the band!

In my mind, the FCC really needs to update their definitions of what constitutes digital and what constitutes image transmissions !

Well, it is interesting to see. At least, now, if someone questions me about my transmissions, I can drag out QST and tell them to take it up with the League ! ! !

73, Jim http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif